proudpapa
Gap fact or theory?? What are your thoughts??
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Gap fact or theory??
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S
sermonindex
Do you mean the pre-Adamite creation gap theory?
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proudpapa
Brother EverestoSama asked //Do you mean the pre-Adamite creation gap theory? //
Yes, thankyou for better articulating it.
M
Miccah
My thoughts? The Lord is sovereign. :)
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sermonindex
I'm not sure if we'd be talking about the same theory, as I don't know it all that well, but every version I've heard of that theory wouldn't line up with what Romans 5 says on the matter.
Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
I'm not sure how there could be millions of years of death happening before Adam, if death through sin began with Adam.
Most gap theorists IMO(except the ones that base their foundation on their own misunderstanding of the KJV's phrasing "replenish the earth" which originally meant 'fill for the first time')
are simply trying to rectify their Biblical beliefs with what Atheistic science demands that they believe. They feel the need to bow their knee to the ever changing "facts" that modern man demands that we believe (until they find out they're wrong and have to find a "better" theory) instead of taking the time honored approach of "Taking God at His Word".
Then again, like I said, maybe I'm talking about something totally different than what you mean.
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proudpapa
I am just asking for thoughts, I do not have a definate oppinion on the topic, Here is a good deffence of the view
http://nogreaterjoy.org/letters/gap-answered/
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proudpapa
Hi, Brother EverestoSama you wrote // Most gap theorists IMO(except the ones that base their foundation on their own misunderstanding of the KJV's phrasing "replenish the earth" which originally meant 'fill for the first time')
are simply trying to rectify their Biblical beliefs with what Atheistic science demands that they believe. They feel the need to bow their knee to the ever changing "facts" that modern man demands that we believe (until they find out they're wrong and have to find a "better" theory) instead of taking the time honored approach of "Taking God at His Word".//
Here is what some of the artical said
The Jews of old recognized this obvious truth, that the earth was created sometime before Genesis 1:3. They had no reason to be biased one way or the other. They just believed the Hebrew text as it read and therefore believed in a “gap”. When I open up a commentary, unless it was written in the last twenty five years, I know that it is going to assume the reality of a gap. I went through the ones in my library and all but one recognized the gap. They are: The Bible Knowledge Commentary; A Commentary, Critical and Explanatory; The Wycliffe Bible Commentary; Jamieson, Fausset and Brown; and Bible Believer’s Commentary. None of them sought to insert evolution into the gap.
How did the gap fact fall into disfavor? When Christian scientists got serious about defending special creation, they found many “Christian” theistic evolutionists entrenched in what they called the “gap theory”. The Christian scientists sought to sweep away that argument by attacking the Biblical doctrine of the gap itself. Possibly they were not aware that it has been a well-established doctrine throughout Biblical history, for they speak as if they think it is a concept invented by theistic evolutionists. Nearly every publication on special creation, whether of magazines, pamphlets, or books, will take a swipe at “The Gap Theory.” This author greatly appreciates the many works published by these Christian scientists. They have done a wonderful job of challenging the evolutionists and providing the doubting Christians with scientific proof of special creation. Our thanks go out to them. But in their zeal to rid the theistic evolutionists of their “biblical” foundation, in this one instance they have trashed the Scripture with their “science.”
Let me be absolutely clear. By believing that the earth existed before the six days of creation and that it was inhabited by angels and cherubim, complete with plants and animals much like it is today, we are not suggesting that the earth is millions of years old or that God needed a great deal of time to bring about creation. The earth may be just ten years older than the six days of remaking. It could be a thousand or ten thousand years older. It is probably no more than 100,000 years older, but then that is only a “scientific” guess by one who is not a scientist. Certainly the earth was created with the appearance of age, no matter how old it is. This author is nothing more than a student of the Bible. The Bible doesn’t suggest that the earth is old. It just states that it existed prior to the six days of recreation. With the Bible speaking clearly, we don’t need science to support it, and we will not allow scientists — Christian or otherwise — to tell us differently. The evolutionists didn’t sway us by pointing to “science” and neither will we be swayed by the “science” of well-meaning but Biblically inaccurate Christian scientists. The old book will weather all the fads.”
http://nogreaterjoy.org/letters/gap-answered/
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proudpapa
good point I had never thought of ,EverestoSama you wrote //Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
I'm not sure how there could be millions of years of death happening before Adam, if death through sin began with Adam.//
But than I would ask, Had not Lucifer sinned before Adam??
It gets me to thinking, Thanks
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sermonindex
I have no problem believing that the earth was in existence in some form of darkness. If that's what's meant by "gap" then, yes, sure, I believe in that Gap, as there's no timeline given.
Here's where we go off
"By believing that the earth existed before the six days of creation and that it was inhabited by angels and cherubim, complete with plants and animals much like it is today, we are not suggesting that the earth is millions of years old or that God needed a great deal of time to bring about creation. The earth may be just ten years older than the six days of remaking."
Now, they've gone beyond what's said anywhere in Scripture, and is purely speculation. YET even with that, the argument defies what is stated about death entering the world. Where did the plants, and animals go? Did they die? Romans 5 says the couldn't have. Did they go to heaven? I'd have to first see some sort of Scripture to see that they were created with heavenly bodies that were breathed into by God.
I find this particular Gap theory taken to this conclusion to be more in the land of speculation and fantasy than either scientific or Biblical.
Just my thoughts.
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proudpapa
Ya, I am not at a deffinate conclusion, you do make a good point about death, that I had never thought of.
What about lucifers fall when did that happen?
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sermonindex
But than I would ask, Had not Lucifer sinned before Adam??
It gets me to thinking, Thanks
Now this is a good question.
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proudpapa
RE://by EverestoSama on 2012/7/12 21:42:30
But than I would ask, Had not Lucifer sinned before Adam??
It gets me to thinking, Thanks
Now this is a good question.//
The forum /OT Texts Regarding Satan's Origin/ is what got me to thinking about this, What it says about the orgins and fall of Lucifer is why people Like Pearl believe in the Gap.
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sermonindex
What about lucifers fall when did that happen?
I would speculate that it was no earlier than the end of the sixth day, though probably after the seventh.
In Genesis 2:1 it says;
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
Hosts in Hebrew;
tsaba'
1) that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host
a) army, host
1) host (of organised army)
2) host (of angels)
3) of sun, moon, and stars
4) of whole creation
b) war, warfare, service, go out to war
c) service
Could be sun, moon, stars, although usually in the Bible in Hebrew the word tsaba' is used for armies, or war, so I would speculate it's talking about angelic hosts.
We know Lucifer was a created being as stated in Ezekiel 28, and we also know from Genesis 1:31 that all that was created up until that point God viewed as good. Even though it doesn't reiterate that everything was still good on the seventh day, I would take a risk saying that it probably still was, even though it's not explicitly stated, though more implicitly.
So I would assume the fall was sometime after the seventh day. And I would further speculate that the temptation was sometime quite soon after that, as there is no record of Adam and Eve having any children yet. This is where we fall into the realms of speculation though.
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proudpapa
J. Vernon McGee believed the Gap theory just as Pearl said the new creation earth theory is fairly new. The Gap theory is the traditional understanding
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sermonindex
I'd personally be more interested in what the first century apostles thought about it. :P
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proudpapa
Brother EverestoSama wrote //This is where we fall into the realms of speculation though//
Ya, no matter what we believe on the issue, it is not a salvation or even a saintification issue. And what ever conclusion we have it has some speculation. I just find it interesting to disscuss and meditate about, you have brought up some good points to think about, I injoy brainstorming with others on such issues. thanks for the thoughts, I am off to bed now.
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sermonindex
Ya, no matter what we believe on the issue, it is not a salvation or even a saintification issue. And what ever conclusion we have it has some speculation. I just find it interesting to disscuss and meditate about, you have brought up some good points to think about, I injoy brainstorming with others on such issues. thanks for the thoughts, I am off to bed now.
For sure man. The subject is definitely one of interest.
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mguldner
In order for it to be a Fact it would first have to be scientifically proven. Since no such experiment can actually happen it's a theory through and through. :)
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sermonindex
In order for it to be a Fact it would first have to be scientifically proven. Since no such experiment can actually happen it's a theory through and through. :)
REPENT!
*It's an inside joke, between mguldner and I. Don't anyone get bent out of shape. :P*
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sermonindex
Funny guys!
Actually we were taught both views and I felt the Prof leaned toward 'the gap' but left the class with "it doesn't matter". I thought that was a good way to do it.
This link below was done by two pastors that I thought was done well and with a bit of humor and I do believe the secret lies in the definition of the Hebrew word for "was" in Genesis 1:2 and that the angels fell before Gen 1:3.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evolution%20Hoax/gap_theorists_defended.htm
I've been a gapper since hearing both sides from that gray haired Prof 30 something yrs ago -- but I also take his attitude that it Really doesn't matter - because it's been a controversy from the beginning of time. Half of the long-dead commentartors believed the gap and half didn't. Plenty still on both sides.
You youngin's behave now. :)
J
jimp
hi, although i am a gapper, it is strickly theory.jimp
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mguldner
The gap theory is totally legit, infact in the original Hebrew text there are extra spaces throughout Genesis 1 that can only be proof this theory is indeed fact.
(jk)
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TMK
I am an ancient universe (billions of years old) creationist (as taught by Hugh Ross).
I like talking about this issue because I think it is interesting, but when it comes down to it I don't really care one way or the other. God can do whatever He wants. He certainly could have and may have created the universe in 6 literal days. He also could have started things off with a bang and Higgs Bosun's particles.
I don't think this issue has anything to do with salvation, etc as Ken Ham would say. Nor should believing a certain way have anyhthing to do with a person being qualified as a pastor or elder in a church.
It just seems to me that the earth/universe HAS to be older than 10-15 thousand years old, as the YEC's would state. I don't think YEC's are dumb for holding this position because they have their supports and I know why they say this.
Everest wrote: "are simply trying to rectify their Biblical beliefs with what Atheistic science demands that they believe."
THis might be a tad unfair; 1st, not all scientists who hold to an ancient universe theory are atheists, and 2nd not all atheist scientist who hold this theory do it BECAUSE they are atheists. They honestly believe this is what the scientific evidence demonstrates.
Now I know that mainstream scientists can and have been proved wrong, and will be proved wrong again. But billions and billions and billions of years wrong? I suppose it is possible that they are this wrong, but I really doubt it.
I know there is a fear among Christians that if we accept the idea of a billions of year old Earth that this opens the door for macroevolution. Nothing could be further from the truth--- there still is not NEARLY enough time for the Darwinian theory to work. Probably not even if the universe is a trillion years old.
Anyways, like I said I enjoy this topic because I find it interesting to discuss... I have read tons of stuff on both sides of the issue and in this case I think mainstream science has it right.. I believe God created the universe with a Big Bang ("bang" it was there) and he even created Higgs-Bosons to help it along.
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ginnyrose
When I attended Bible School back in the 1960s our instructor in Genesis believed in the gap theory and taught it to us, making us "gappers". His greatest motivator was on how does one account for the age of the fossils scientists say are millions or billions of years old.
As time went on, I became aware of how quickly things can fossilize given the right conditions. How is it that there are found in coal modern items? Do a google search and what you find will be nothing short of amazing.
Given this empirical evidence, I have since then discarded the gap theory - it is just that, a theory.
Still, this question remains: when did Lucifer fall? Since the WORD is not clear on it, God must not have deemed it essential for our well-being to know, hence the shortage of info on this act.
Ann, I still appreciate you, even if we disagree on this issue...:-)
God bless.
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sermonindex
A novelty subject since there is no concrete evidence to prove it, it's all speculation and conjecture.
Do I believe that such a theory exists, it's possible.
"In the Beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth."
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
The possibility in the gap theory is this "Darkness" that was there.
I am pointing that out because of verses 3 and 4
Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
It doesn't say that God said, "let there be darkness and there was darkness".
Darkness had to have come from somewhere, it just didn't appear out of nowhere, it had to be created or it was the result of disobedience perhaps (all conjecture). Perhaps this Darkness which was upon the face of the deep was a spiritual darkness.
The reason why I say that is because the light that was created in verse 3 is not the same light that was created when God created the Sun. That light that lights the daytime was created on day 4.
There is something to note though. The words Day and Night are capitalized in verse 5, whereas the words 'day' and 'night' are not in verses 16&18.
Another thing to note is, during the creation up until the 4 day when the Sun was created to give light to the earth, what was the 'evening and morning' on the first few days in creation?
I think God was establishing the eternal invisible spiritual foundations of the earth first before creating the visible things which we see and know.
The gap theory has to extend from verse 2 to day 4 until the Sun was created.
There is a strong application of the creation leading up to Jesus Christ.
Matthew 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Genesis 1:4 .... and God divided the light from the darkness.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
I think that these names Day and Night are actual persons. Day is Christ and all that pertains to Light, and the Night is all that is of Satan.
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sermonindex
Sure glad I said this in my first post :)
"but I also take his attitude that it Really doesn't matter - because it's been a controversy from the beginning of time. Half of the long-dead commentators believed the gap and half didn't. Plenty still on both sides."
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twayneb
But than I would ask, Had not Lucifer sinned before Adam??
It gets me to thinking, Thanks
[quote/]
I have read all of Dake's reasoning and scriptures supporting the pre-Adamite civilization theory as well as the gap theory. It seems to me a lot of scripture is handled a bit loosely and perhaps even out of context. From the statement
"gap fact" it seems perhaps you have read Michael Pearl's book on the issue. I have been blessed by a lot of his teaching, but I do not agree with him on this one. I do not see a pre-Adamite civilization nor do I see a gap.
To answer the quote above, who says that Lucifer sinned before he tempted Adam and Eve? Someone else can weigh in with scriptures if I am missing something, but the idea that Lucifer sinned before the garden is primarily borne out by interpreting a particular statement in the book of Revelation. It seems to me from Isaiah and Ezekiel (there is another thread going about these passages) that Lucifer was in the garden of Eden as the anointed cherub that covereth in a pre-sin state. It seems to me that he was jealous of man's authority and dominion and decided that he would have his own authority and that he would get it by taking it from man. I believe his sin was in the garden rather than at some indeterminate time before the garden.
As to the age of the fossils, that is a construct of a fallen man who relies on circular reasoning (the date determines the strata which in turn is used to confirm the date)and dating methods that are wildly variable (e.g. potassium argon dating, carbon dating, etc.)
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kjcword
Romans 5:12 says that sin entered the world after adam, and death followed sin. Satan's sin happened in heaven, not earth. Remember Jesus said that He watched satan fall like lightning. I think Ken Ham has some great research on the 6 day creation. I am firmly in the 6 day camp. If God said 6 days, I believe it. So, I believe the earth is roughly 6,000 years old.
L
Lysa
by TMK
I am an ancient universe (billions of years old) creationist (as taught by Hugh Ross).
Me too.
God bless,
Lisa
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TMK
A lot sure happened on Day 6. Poor Adam must have been exhausted.
I thought the origin of the Gap theory was that Gen 1:2 can be translated "and the earth BECAME formless and void" instead of "was formless and void."
Anyways it will be great to learn all about this someday.
I am hoping that some day we will be able to go back and "review" things in the ancient past first hand. Perhaps the Lord will allow us to do that.
K
keepstanding
To those who believe in the gap theory I would highly recommend the following:
http://www.creationtoday.org/seminar-part-1-the-age-of-the-earth/
http://beaconmbc.com/articles/thegaptheory.htm
I would also reccomend Ken Ham @: www.answersingenesis.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nj-x3I2EeM
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/cm/v3/n3/gap-theory-a
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