Book Study Thread: Bonhoeffer

A martyr yes; executed for his involvement in a plot to assassinate Hitler; but maybe a social martyr?

BEWARE OF THE MARBLE MAN!
" Moreover, Bonhoeffer believed that the true Christian was the confessing believer who totally immersed his life in the secular world, becoming a secular Christian."

"Bonhoeffer plainly rejected such cardinal doctrines as the virgin birth, physical resurrection, and substitutionary atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.

According to Bonhoeffer, it is a "cardinal error" to regard Christianity as a religion of salvation. In an article at the Way of Life web site we have documented Bonhoeffer's heresies from a 1967 edition of his Letters and Papers from Prison. (See the Modernist section of the End Times Apostasy Database ]..(discern the time )....................................................

And..."Bonhoeffer, like many good theological existentialists, would say that the resurrection of Jesus is not something that literally happened to Jesus, but rather it is something that happens to us, his disciples. “Jesus Christ has been raised in our hearts” and that “resurrection” gives significance to our existence.

In the latter half of the twentieth century, many evangelical Christians fell in love with Bonhoeffer’s writings, because they found a deep personal piety contained therein that they found attractive.

They also appreciated his courage and willingness to die for his convictions. But once again, this shows how uncritical evangelicals have become.

While we might find many statements from Bonhoeffer on such subjects as personal piety and personal ethics that we might agree with and even appreciate, those statements come packaged in a theology that should be troubling to those who take the biblical narrative seriously. [Literally].

I myself do in fact believe that the proposition “Jesus Christ is risen from the dead” is an ontologically true statement. In fact, if it were not so, I would concur with the apostle Paul that “our faith is futile.” What genuine transformative power is that proposition supposed to have if it is not ontologically true?"..[ REAL]
http://www.sortingbeans.com/bonhoeffer-and-ontology/
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Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945) was a neo-orthodox German theologian, pastor, preacher, radio broadcaster, and prolific writer in the 1930s and early-1940s, during the rise, rule, and downfall of Adolph Hitler.

He was greatly fascinated with neo-orthodox thought, theology, and terminology, and was greatly influenced by the major theologian of neo-orthodoxy, Karl Barth (1886-1968).

Bonhoeffer's writings are credited with helping to father the "Death of God" theology which was popularized by the Anglican Bishop John A.T. Robinson in the decade of the1960s.

Bonhoeffer was in reality a practical atheist and a religious humanist who denied virtually every cardinal doctrine of the historic Christian faith (Letters and Papers from Prison, ed. Eberhard Bethge, New York: Macmillan Co., 1972, pp. 9-12).

Bonhoeffer readily acknowledged "the debt he owes to liberal theology." Declaring that it was impossible to know the objective truth about Christ's real nature and essence, Bonhoeffer proclaimed that God was dead.

Moreover, Bonhoeffer believed that the true Christian was the confessing believer who totally immersed his life in the secular world, becoming a secular Christian.

Rejecting the objective unalterable moral standards of the Bible, Bonhoeffer proclaimed a situational ethics -- that right and wrong are determined solely by the "loving obligations of the moment"

(Letters and Papers from Prison, ed. Eberhard Bethge, New York: Macmillan Co., 1972, pp. 9-12, 378; Ethics, pp. 38, 186; No Rusty Swords, pp. 44-45).

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/bonhoeffer/general.htm

I might investigate Bonhoeffer before investing so much time in him. Yes, I read the COST, many years ago, but became unsettled in his intellectual confusion centered around the simplicity of the Word as being the WORD.

He was a Mass-taking confessional who studied at Catholic monasteries and worshipped there also. He was a champion of Ecumenical-ism also. He possessed the courage to die for his beliefs, but in my view, was never a Christian at all.

Bonhoeffer beliefs and teachings: Documented. Watch what you eat.

He believed that "God is teaching us that we must live as men who can get along very well without Him. The God who is with us is the God who forsakes us."

Bonhoeffer also believed that the concept of God as a "supreme Being, absolute in power and goodness," was a "spurious conception of transcendence," and that "God as a working hypothesis in morals, politics, and science ... should be dropped, or as far as possible eliminated" (Letters and Papers from Prison, S.C.M. Press edition, Great Britain: Fontana Books, 1953, pp. 122, 164, 360).

2. He believed that mankind had become of age and no longer needed religion, which was only a deceptive garment of true faith; he suggested the need for a "religionless Christianity." To Bonhoeffer, "the Christian is identified not by his beliefs, but by actions, by his participation in the suffering of God in the life of the world"

(Letters and Papers from Prison, S.C.M. Press edition, Great Britain: Fontana Books, 1953, p. 163).
Thus, Bonhoeffer's final writings have given impulse to Marxist theologians sponsoring "liberation theology" and to others wishing to promote a worldly social gospel.

3. He refused to discuss the origin of Christ, His relationship to the Father, His two natures, or even the relationship of the two natures. Bonhoeffer was adamant in his belief that it was impossible to know the objective truth about the real essence of Christ's being-nature (Christ the Center, pp. 30, 88, 100-101).

4. He questioned the Virgin Birth, and in reality denied it (The Cost of Discipleship, p. 215).

5. He denied the deity of Christ; he advocated that "Jesus Christ Today" is not a real person and being, but a "corporate presence" (Testimony to Freedom, pp. 75-76; Christ the Center, p. 58).

6. He denied the sinlessness of Christ's human nature and further questioned the sinlessness of His earthly behavior (Christ the Center, pp. 108-109).

7. He believed that Christ exists in three "revelatory forms" -- as Word, as sacrament, and as church. From asserting that Christ is the church, he followed that all persons in the church are identical with Christ (Christ the Center, p. 58; The Cost of Discipleship, p. 217). This amounts to pantheism!

8. He believed that Christianity is not exclusive, i.e., that Christ is not the only way to God (Testimony to Freedom, pp. 55-56).

9. He was a prominent figure in the early ecumenical movement, as evidenced through his associations with the "World Alliance for International Friendship" (a forerunner of the apostate World Council of Churches [WCC]), Union Theological Seminary, and Visser 't Hooft (who later became the first General Secretary of the WCC) (Testimony to Freedom, pp. 22, 212, 568).
Bonhoeffer also reached out to Roman Catholics, prefiguring the broader ecumenism that blossomed after Vatican II in the mid-1960s.

10. He was a practical evolutionist (No Rusty Swords, p. 143), and believed that the book of Genesis was scientifically naive and full of myths (Creation and Fall: A Theological Interpretation of Genesis 1-3).

11. He adhered to neo-orthodox theology and terminology concerning salvation (Testimony to Freedom, p. 130), was a sacramentalist (Life Together, p. 122; The Way to Freedom, pp. 115, 153),

.. believed in regenerational infant baptism (Letters and Papers from Prison, Macmillan, pp. 142-143) as well as adult baptismal regeneration (The Way to Freedom, p. 151), equated church membership with salvation (The Way to Freedom, p. 93), and denied a personal/individualistic salvation (Letters and Papers from Prison, Macmillan, p. 156).

12. He placed little or no value on the Old Testament --"... the faith of the Old Testament is not a religion of salvation" (Letters and Papers from Prison, S.C.M. Press edition, Great Britain: Fontana Books, 1953, p. 112).

13. He denied the verbal-plenary inspiration of Scripture, believing that the Bible was only a "witness" to the Word of God and becomes the Word of God only when it "speaks" to an individual; otherwise, it was simply the word of man/men.
(Testimony to Freedom, pp. 9, 104; Sanctorum Communio, p. 161).

To Bonhoeffer, the Bible was meant "to be expounded as a witness, not as a book of wisdom, a teaching book, a book of eternal truth" (No Rusty Swords, p. 118). He also believed in the value of higher criticism/historical criticism, which is a denial of the inerrancy and authenticity of the Bible (Christ the Center, pp. 73-74).

14. He had no faith in the physical resurrection of Christ. Bonhoeffer believed the "historicity" of the Resurrection was in "the realm of ambiguity," and that it was one of the "mythological" elements of Christianity that "must be interpreted in such a way as not to make religion a pre-condition of faith."

He also believed that "Belief in the Resurrection is not the solution of the problem of death," and that such things as miracles and the ascension of Christ were "mythological conceptions" as well (Christ the Center, p. 112; Letters and Papers from Prison, S.C.M. Press edition, Great Britain: Fontana Books, 1953, pp. 93-94, 110).

Dr. G. Archer Weniger declared, "If there is wholesome food in a garbage can, then one can find some good things in Bonhoeffer, but if it be dangerous to expect to find nourishment in a garbage can, then Bonhoeffer must be totally rejected and repudiated as blasphemy. It is worse than garbage."

[url=http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/bonhoeffer/general.htm]Bonhoeffer.[/

Trekker are you saying Bohoffer was not a Christian in the New Testament sense if the word? That he was not trusting in Christ for his salvstion?

Bearmaster.

I am totaly disgusted by the critisisms of Bonhoeffer here on this thread. By the way, they are complete lies. To say that Bonhoffer did not believe in God the Father and His eternal Son Jesus and that he did not believe in the ressurection of the Lord Jesus Christ is complete lies. This cut and paste hatchet job on Bonhoeffer ( and the cut and paste comes from a hatchet websiste) is disgusting. I am just sick to my stomoch...........bro Frank

Though there was much liberal thinking in german evangelical circles and even if Bonhoeffer wrote some questionable things it must be expected because theologians do try and speculate on some theories of doctrine and investigate things this way.

I and have Bonhoeffers writings personally very edifying and his life and walk matching his talk.

Personally I see nothing wrong with studying the book "Cost Of Discipleship" We must be open to learn from brothers of many persuasions and take the good we can.

May God prepare us for what is coming. We surely need piety and discipleship as a key focus because of its lack in the last hundred years.

Below, in a nutshell, is an explanation of DBs theology, and the inspiration that drove his life; He was the modern day original Social Activist; similar to John Brown, the great Abolitionist, who believed the cause of Christ, and the gospel of Christ, was shown in your commitment to active social change; there-by the assassination plot to on Hitler.

He was not martyred for the cause of Christ, as was John Brown [ perhaps the most influential activist ever in America; some say he alone sparked the civil war. ] He was executed for attempted murder of a head of state. He was also, like John Brown, vastly influential because of his stand adhering to social activism, even unto death, and murder.

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"Thus, Bonhoeffer's final writings have given impulse to Marxist theologians sponsoring "liberation theology" and to others wishing to promote a worldly social gospel."
[ reference original post.].........

He was similar to the Reverend Wright's "G.D.America!"'s theology; A cause driven life, and as the Roman Catholic sub-doctrine of living a sacrificial life to please God, and the more sacrificial the more pleasing to God.

As I see it, holding the complete body of evidence, it is impossible to believe that he was ever a Christian, as is clearly evidenced by a wide body of his works.

IssacharSon wrote:
"BrotherTom,
"Watch what you regurgitate."

"This would all seem very convincing if one accepts noncontextual criticism of literary work."

Taken all out of context, you are right!

If you've actually read Bonhoeffer's works, not so fast!

I found the sources of many of your citations above and Claim #4 in particular, is also referenced on a Fundamentalist website called "FundamentalBaptist Ministries.com"

And I have my paperback copy of Bonhoeffer's "Cost of Discipleship" open to "page 215" and it says nothing about the virgin birth.

If you have a copy of the book, pls open to page 215 and you will see that it immerses you into Chapter 24 entitled, "The Suffering of the Messengers" whereby, he gives a commentary on Matthew 10: 16-25

Our diverse interpretations of this man's life all the more necessitate a need to study his book." IssacharSon
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Fair enough, I.S. I wanted to remind you that the original copy of Bonhoeffer's work has been re-published many, many times, and from German to many languages, including English. You probably have a paperback copy. I did too, and I still remember it; it was emerald green and thick. The format and pages are different to the original hardback copy, and may also have been edited.

Yes, I have read the book, [ 30 years ago?] at least much of it, until I got bogged down with the complex theological tripe that began to grieve me.

Also, I referenced a study from at least two websites, that referenced their work explicitly as to Bonhoeffers own words and writings. Here is another one.

If you want a more detailed and straightforward approach as to his twisted theology, I suggest you read "Letters from Prison"..DB.

http://herewestand.org/blog/2011/07/02/dietrich-bonhoeffer-on-scripture-and-the-virgin-birth/

I concede that there may be value considering these views, and as I said, I read him as a younger man. Now, I think I see more clearly what he is. He is a philosophical Ecumenical Liberal Theologian, who denies the Word of God to favor his own thinking as truth; This, in my view, is at the core of what the word heresy actually means; Divider.

Thank You for the offer to participate in the book club forum. I think it a good idea, and for now, I have time. However, I would only be interested in Christian authored books; John Bunyan, Whitfield, Edwards and the like. I do not consider DB to be in this fellowship, there-by I must decline. Thanks though, Tom

Compton writes.........

"God is weak and powerless in the world, and that is exactly the way, the only way in which he can be with us and help us. Matthew 8:17 makes it crystal clear that it is not by his omnipotence that Christ helps us, but by his weakness and his suffering...only a suffering God can help.” (Bonhoeffer 1953 p. 164 Letters and Papers from Prison) For myself, this seems like the sincere efforts of a dispairing man to explain and even defend God's apparent silence during the dreadfully inhuman events going on all around him. Given the living nightmare he saw himself in, he can be forgiven if his Letters From Prison didn't quite sound like Pauls' letters from Prison; "Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice!"

Excellent brother. Now this is a contextual comment as opposed to someone who admittedly has never read Bobhoeffer and gets his critisims and thoughts from " two websites."............bro Frank

Excellent brother. Now this is a contextual comment as opposed to someone who admittedly has never read Bobhoeffer and gets his critisims and thoughts from " two websites."............bro Frank

I assume Appollus you are referring to me. Actually I have read Bonhoeffer, and considered him for many years. Yes, there is a wealth of information today easily accessible in the "Google" world, but this does not make it any more or less valid.

It is odd to me, that rather than respond to the 20 or so documented, verse and chapter references, to his anti-Christian heretical faith, that I posted, you choose to belittle me as pridefully ignorant.[ the "two websites" jab]

Rather than cynical slander about the depth of my post, why not address the issue I have proved. Was DB a Christian? I say no. Do you believe in his doctrine?

After all the years here, I am surprised that you will not keep your eyes on the issue [ the ball ], and not the man.
If you feel led, please address these issues. I respect your opinion, and would like to know your reasoning too, in light of the scriptures; our guide, but not a slanderous put-down.

Or, do you just attack, with contempt, any who would prove your sentiments wrong?

BT, yo write.............

"Rather than cynical slander about the depth of my post," brother, your post was cynoical slander. In your post you quoted another website, not Bonhoeffer. Rbanks and Compton quoted Bonhoeffer, you did not, hence the paste and copy charge.

I suppose you know the views of the " websites,' you quoted on Tozer and Guyon as well? It is this that I object to, that given your admission that you never finished " The Cost of Discipleship," because you could not understand it, you then make the claim that Bonhoeffer believed God to be dead and that he did not believe in the ressurection of Jesus. Why not, instead of just quoting another website, give us the quotes like Rbanks and Compton did, where you say that Bonhoeffer said that God was dead or that Jesus did not bodily arise. Anyone who has actually read Bonhoeffer knows that this is simply not true. I would think that after all these years Tom,that you would have a little more evidence of your owm, rather than others opinions ( which they are all entitled too) that Bonhoeffer was an athiest and a heritic, a high charge I am sure you would agree. I think you know that certain websites have agenda's and slants, is it remotely possible that the websites that you quote have used certain texts, taken them out of context, and come of with a pre-text to pander to a certain community of people? I think Compton's quote, by giving context, clearly demonstrates that. It was you that made the charge that Bonhoeffer believed that God was dead and did not believe in the ressurection. Rbanks quotes refute that yet you do not respond to that or give actual quotes to prove your accsuations. The ball brother, not the man, is in your court BT..........bro Frank

Hi guys,

I believe that the charges of heresy, believing God is dead and not believing that Jesus rose again from the dead have been dealt with very well with extensive quotes here on this thread. The one charge that was not refuted was that he was some kind of "John Brown." Let me just say that Bonhoeffer was arrested in April of 1943 for being involved in a conspiracy, yes, but not to kill Hitler ( that would have gotton you killed either immediately or some time soon therafter) The conspiracy he was arrested on was for helping 13 Jews to escape to Switzerland, a place where Bonhoeffer could travel because he " worked" for the "Abwehr." More than a year later, the famous attempt on Hitlers life was attempted, July 1944.

Bonhoeffer knew men that were involved in that wide spanning conspiracy. Yet Bonhoeffer was not killed until just days before the war ended. So the charge that he was a "John Brown," was not and has not every been established and all we have to go on is the words that he wrote in his books. Perhaps some may have specific evidence that Bonhoeffer was a part of this conspiracy and theorefore justify calling him a "John Brown?" ..........bro Frank

KingJimmy weighs in on the subject almost 7 years ago on just one of the several threads discussed on D.Bonhoeffer here at SI. I thought it very clear, and well done, and answers the idea of "Confessional Christianity", which was important to DB...........

KingJimmy speaks:
To help clarify a bit, from my understanding of it (though rather limited), Neo-Orthodoxy is essentially a two-faced belief system. It has it's academic side, that pretty much accepts liberal convictions concerning textual criticism, history, etc., concerning the Scriptures.

However, it also has it's "confessional" nature to it which pretty much says that it doesn't care too much about the scholarly findings, though accepting of them. The Neo-Orthodoxy say that in spite of what we believe to be true scientifically, historically, and scholarly, we are going to go ahead and confess the confession of the othodox Christian credo. Essentially to the Neo-Orthodox, it doesn't matter if the claims of the Scriptures are actually objectively true. To them, all that matters is the confession.

So, to the academy they'll concede the findings of scholarship. When playing Church however, they'll essentially sound like the historical Christian faith. Thus, Bonhoeffer is widely read amongst evangelicals, and is quoted approvingly from the likes of Ravenhill, Katz, Christianity Today, etc., who are probably unaware of the underlying foundations and convictions of people like Bonhoeffer or Barth.

Essentially the Neo-Orthodox theologians are knowingly enter into a delusion. They truly believe the reality of the claims of Christianity are mostly false, yet desire to go ahead and believe and confess it's claims anyway. Thus, they can look very conservative and evangelical, and warmly received by many.

And no doubt, some of their insights are outstanding from which we as Christians can glean from. Even though Bonhoeffer is a Neo-Orthodox theologian, who can possibly deny the wonderful insight he offers in books like "Life Together?" This goes for any theologian. Even Ravenhill sometimes quoted from some liberal sources when he believed they were right about some of the things they said."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=9118&forum=35&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=1

"Who stands firm? Only the one for whom the final standard is not his reason, his principles, his conscience, his freedom, his virtue, but who is ready to sacrifice all these, when in faith and sole allegiance to God he is called to obedient and responsible action: the responsible person, whose life will be nothing but an answer to God's question and call." Bonhoeffer

In this he reached the epitome of the Noble cause, and in his martyrdom, an almost hero status. To Bonhoeffer living the life of Christ was only authentic in terms of paying the cost in terms of social activism; as was the spirit of John Brown, the great Civil War Activist of the same moral ilk and amazing courage.

The following are excerpts from Called by God, by Raum. There are thousands of references to Bonhoeffers involvement in the assassination attempt of Hitler, though this was not discovered upon his arrest, for basically helping Jews escape THE HORROR.

"He recognized that his ability to serve the church in the future was already compromised, but that Hitler's assassination was necessary, he did not doubt."
Page 133

"Dietrich, Eberhard, and the Bonhoeffer family waited anxiously for news of the assassination. It was difficult to hide their disappointment on hearing that the plot
had failed. More secret meetings and more planning convinced the conspirators to ..."
Page 142

Thanks to coded messages from family both Dietrich and Hansvon Dohnanyi knew that another assassination attempt was planned for July 1944. If it succeeded, the charges would be dropped. Hans took extreme measures to delay his trial ...
The Bonhoeffer family prayed that Dietrich and Hans would not be connected to the plot. After all, they had been in prison when the assassination attempt occurred. For a long time, nothing happened to change their situation and the
family ...and then, written documents were discovered identifying Bonhoeffer by name, and he was executed in prison.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer: Called by God By Elizabeth Raum

He believed that to follow Christ for a social cause was the only authentic Christ, and thereby participated not only as a Moses figure for the German Jew, and his band of Confessional young ministers, who were banned in Nazi-ism, but as judgment upon them, and became deeply involved in the underground resistance.

He forsook the safety and comfort of America to return with a more radical zeal, and ultimately was executed for it, when he was exposed in the assassination plot.

He was quite an amazing figure, and I can see how Compton could say, "a better man than I." However, I do not see a Biblical and Spiritual faith that he lived, and as elevated as his exploits exalted his character, I cannot see it as a Christian one. BT

I can only repeat the charges, playing the ball and not the man.

Charge 1. Believed God was dead

Charge 2. Heretic

Charge 3. Did not believe in the resurrection of Jesus

Charge 4. Was arrested on conspiracy to kill Hitler, therefore a type of "John Brown."

All of these charges have been refuted in this thread alone as the extensive quotes testify to the opposite of charges 1-3. Charge 4 is simply false on its face as he was not charged with conspiring to kill Hitler. What he knew or did not know or what if any part he played remains totaly in the realm of conjecture. As far as him only believing in the " confession,' rather than salvation, this is totally incorrect. I suggest that a mere reading of the first three chapters of "The Cost of Discipleship," will shatter this charge completely. In those first three chapters Bonhoffer speaks about cheap grace as opposed to costly grace. He said that cheap grace was a mere confession, a mere mental assent to an abstract truth and that none of this was salvation. This is the exact opposite of the charge laid here against him..........bro Frank

This is a link from the holcaust museam in DC.

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/bonhoeffer/?content=6

It gives a complete summary of Bonhoeffer's involvement in the German resistance ( yes there was one) and the latest book, an excellent read, completely agrees with this account. "Bonhoeffer,pastor, marty prophet, spy" is the name of the book and it goes into great detail as to his involvment in the intelligence and how he worked to help Jewish people escape and Confessing Church pastors avoid military service. It runs about 800 pages but is well worth the read for a comlete picture of Bonhoeffer....Frank

If it were ever proven that Bonhoeffer helped in the conspircy to kill Hitler, I would find myself in disagreement with him on that issue and if he were still alive he would have to rip up his major work, because being involved in the killing of Hitler would be the opposite of what he wrote.........bro Frank

If it were ever proven that Bonhoeffer helped in the conspircy to kill Hitler, I would find myself in disagreement with him on that issue and if he were still alive he would have to rip up his major work, because being involved in the killing of Hitler would be the opposite of what he wrote.........bro Frank

Operation Valkyrie and the July Plot to Assassinate Hitler
(July 20, 1944)

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At the end of 1943 the Schutz Staffeinel (SS) and the Gestapo managed to arrest several Germans involved in plotting to overthrow Adolf Hitler. This included Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Klaus Bonhoeffer, Josef Mueller and Hans Dohnanyi. Others under suspicion like Wilhelm Canaris and Hans Oster were dismissed from office in January, 1944.

It is etimated that 4,980 Germans were executed after the July Plot. Hitler decided that the leaders should have a slow death. They were hung with piano wire from meat-hooks. [ as was Bonhoeffer] Their executions were filmed and later shown to senior members of both the NSDAP and the armed forces.
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http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/julyplot.html
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The Nazis implicated thousands of people in the assassination plot, including Bonhoeffer and three members of his immediate family (his brother Klaus and two brothers-in-law). Incriminating documents, hidden by his sister's husband Hans von Dohnanyi, had been found by the Gestapo. Although he did not yet realize the secret papers were in the hands of his enemies, Bonhoeffer was a condemned man.

http://www.awesomestories.com/religion/bonhoeffer/attempted-assassination-of-hitler
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As the war continued, and Nazi atrocities worsened, Bonhoeffer joined others to plot against Hitler. But Operation Valkyrie failed to kill the German ruler (on July 20, 1944), and his revenge against those immediately responsible was swift, and fatal. Claus von Stauffenberg, who’d left a briefcase bomb in Hitler’s planning room at Wolf’s Lair, was executed the day after the bomb exploded.

http://www.awesomestories.com/flicks/agentof-grace/summary
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Bonheoffer:" Who am I"..outlining Valkerie:
Also:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xITUH2gGMZU
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Bonhoeffer: Is assassination legal?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xITUH2gGMZU
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..........ETHICAL ASSASSINATION..........

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the legendary German theologian, was one of the central figures in two separate and complex plots to assassinate Adolf Hitler – Operation 7 and Operation Valkyrie.

This hero paid the ultimate price in fighting against Nazism, fascism and against Hitler’s so-called “German Christian,” movement leading inevitably to his martyrdom at Flossenbürg concentration camp exactly two weeks before it was liberated by the U.S. Army 90th and 97th Infantry Divisions and three weeks before Hitler committed suicide inside his underground secret bunker in Berlin.

After preaching his last sermon, Bonhoeffer was hanged with piano wire and his body unceremoniously burned on April 9, 1945.

In his magnum opus, “Ethics,” Bonhoeffer wrote these immortal lines

:http://mobile.wnd.com/2012/04/bonhoeffer-and-truths-gray-area/

“In a world where success is the measure and justification of all things, the figure of Him who was sentenced and crucified remains a stranger and is at best the object of pity. The world will allow itself to be subdued only by success."

The end is what justifies the means."
[IE; HITLER MUST DIE!]

!! "It is not ideas or opinions which decide, but deeds."!!
[His substitution that social activism is the only real faith ]

!!!!!" Success alone justifies wrongs done."!!!!!!

[This is the cry of the Revolutionary.]

… "With a frankness and off-handedness which no other earthly power could permit itself, history appeals in its own cause to the dictum that the end justifies the means."

… "The figure of the Crucified invalidates all thought which takes success for its standard!"

http://mobile.wnd.com/2012/04/bonhoeffer-and-truths-gray-area/

"If it were ever proven that Bonhoeffer helped in the conspiracy to kill Hitler, I would find myself in disagreement with him on that issue and if he were still alive he would have to rip up his major work, because being involved in the killing of Hitler would be the opposite of what he wrote.........bro Frank

BT writes: "Well Frank, that is exactly what Bonhoeffer did; he ripped up everything he wrote and believed about non-violence pacifism. He knew he was breaking God's law in participating in the plots to assassinate Hitler, but justified it anyway; He was also a former Gandhi disciple, the champion of non-violent, political pacifism.

DB was an ETHICAL Christian, who believed that only in society, the real world is sorrow and sin dealt with, and the true christian is the one who acts; there-by a social activist; [ As I previously noted, I compare with the martyr John Brown who gave his life to free the Black slaves circa 1860 in America.

There is no where that I could find where DB speaks of being born again, not one. He lived an ideological, political, theological life, where ideas become the force of your faith, rather than the Spirit, and true faith in your ideas became your authentic walk with God, only as you acted them out in society.

This is why he "naturalized" the Sermon on the Mount, and other scriptures, bending them into his ideas about Christian Social activism, and proved all of through his death, as he was part of two plots to murder Hitler, and therby executed.

The ethics of murder.
"Another Think" address and source below.

"His position seems at first glance to be a tortured ethical contradiction. What drove Bonhoeffer to discard his pacifism in this instance was the realization that in a world broken by sin and suffused by evil, certain horrors simply could not be tolerated, and could only be stopped through violence.

Bonhoeffer saw himself obeying the call of Christ to lay down his life for others. He in effect sacrificed his own moral convictions in the hope of saving Jews from the death camps.

[ This is at the core of Bonhoeffer's "end justifying the means" ethic.]

After years spent openly opposing Adolf Hitler and encouraging Germans to turn against his regime, Dietrich Bonhoeffer — a Christian minister, theologian, pacifist and German citizen — made a deliberate turn from civil disobedience to secret participation in a cabal whose aim was to assassinate the Fuhrer.

Bonhoeffer laid aside his Christian pacifism when he woke up to the fact that Hitler was engaging in genocide. This outraged Bonhoeffer, who held the deep religious conviction that the Jews were a people precious to God and deserving of protection, whatever the personal cost.

As a pacifist, Bonhoeffer had quietly refused to join the military. With his new found commitment to Hitler's murder he changed direction and joined the German Abwehr, the wartime intelligence agency headed by Admiral Wilheim Canaris.

Canaris was secretly opposed to Hitler and was using Abwehr to launch a variety of plots against the Reich, including assassination attempts. Bonhoeffer never participated directly in such plots — they had to be carried out by the military, because officers were the only ones who could get close enough to the Fuhrer to kill him.

Nevertheless, Bonhoeffer aided and encouraged these plots from his post inside the Abwehr. Pretending to be a loyal servant of Hitler's Reich, Bonhoeffer was in fact a double agent working towards Hitler's forcible overthrow.

Bonhoeffer never claimed that God was "on his side" in this effort. On the contrary, he wrote that his decision to work for Hitler's assassination would make him guilty of breaking God's law.

His conviction was that he had to follow the dictates of his conscience, even though he felt certain that he would be judged guilty by God should he cause Hitler's death. His only moral hope, he believed, was that he might find grace to cover his sin through his faith in Christ."

more here:

http://www.anotherthink.com/contents/politics/abortion/20090602_the_ethics_of_murder.html

To me, I think DB tragic. He was a Dr. of theology at 21, Magna Summa Cum Laud; but never in his life got out of the Jesus in his mind. His ideas and moral choices then became his faith, to his last breath. It appears to me that he was never born again from above, which is the most tragic of all, but believed that his social religious activism, even if they may be sin, were right, for the end in God's eyes, justified the means. This is great deception.

This was the sin of the first king of Israel, Saul...who was fiercely rebuked by Samuel.

Tom posted: "He in effect sacrificed his own moral convictions
in the hope of saving Jews from the death camps."

And, if a Jew was reading this - who's "moral convictions" would impress and open their hearts to what a Christian is - the one who's feverishly posting these things or the one this is posted about?

In the absolute horror and madness of those days - can we not forgive this man for being 'tempted beyond his gentle mind'?
He wasn't the one that left the bomb - he's only accused of being with those that wanted Hitler Stopped.

I've read The Cost of Discipleship.
I'd read it again if I still had my copy but I'm still going to enjoy reading this thread when it gets started.

Pilgrim, I am "Christian Non-Resistant" and miss our Brother Pastorfrin that gave all of his 'spare' time to posting on that topic while here with us.

This, of Bonhoeffer, is a lesson to us that may face the/an antiChrist as he did - that no one is above temptation and must by all means use this as 'a lesson' - that if a man with the heart of Bonhoeffer can be "maddened" enough to side with those that wanted the slaughter to stop by whatever means - then we need to use this example to strengthen our own Resolve, Now - before any such temptation should hit our own shores.

Really, this is so sad. We have a brother who joins the forum. He comes forth with an excellent idea for a book club. He picks an excellent book. One of the classics of the Christian faith. And the author is trashed before the book is even read.

So Tom since Cost of Discipleship is not to your liking. Why not suggest a book that you like. I think the idea is good. But for sure it will be killed if you turn this thread into a debate thread. The purpose should be to edify. Not tear down.

So Tom what book would you suggest?

Bearmaster.

"This, of Bonhoeffer, is a lesson to us that may face the/an antiChrist as he did - that no one is above temptation and must by all means use this as 'a lesson' - that if a man with the heart of Bonhoeffer can be "maddened" enough to side with those that wanted the slaughter to stop by whatever means - then we need to use this example to strengthen our own Resolve, Now - before any such temptation should hit our own shores." JiG

Thank-you for this admonishment JiG. I struggle with this everyday of my life; whether or not to take up the sword for justice.; This is the issue.

"If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

By doing so, picking up the sword, you lose either way, no matter the outcome. We must trust Jesus, as did all the martyrs.

You cannot overcome temptation by means of your own noble and Ethical devotion. You will always fail, because, the ONLY way we overcome is:

"Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death."

Salvation, Power to overcome, and God's Kingdom exploits are given one way. The blood, our Testimony by it and through it, and not loving our own way, HOWEVER ETHICAL AND MORAL we may deem it.

As I said earlier, I have failed to see Bonhoeffer's testimony about being saved; being born from above, and cleansed from his sin, nor his daily testimony about these things.

I do not believe he possessed the power to overcome these temptations that came to him, and naturally succumbed to his high and moral convictions, that included that the end, justified the means.

I sincerely hope I am wrong about that, but in light of the mass of written testimony and ideas that he prolifically produced, I think not. To me, DB is a tragic, but noble and well meaning man, who felt he had a mission.

There are only so many ways to say the DB was not arrested for his involvement in the plot to kill Hitler, he was arrested more than a year before the plot and was alive more than a year after the plot. Those thought to be part of the plot were delt with very swiftly, many being put up against a wall and killed right away. The fact remains that BD was still alive just days before the war ended and was never seriously considered by the authorities to be involved in this plot, although he knew so many who were.

I guess the charges that were made that he thought God was dead and that he did not believe in the ressurection and that he was a heretic will just be left hanging in the wind. The OP and idea of this thread was excellent, and then it was turned into a tearing down of the man, very sad. Not sure who benifits from that, certainly not the Body...............bro Frank

"There are only so many ways to say the DB was not arrested for his involvement in the plot to kill Hitler, he was arrested more than a year before the plot and was alive more than a year after the plot.

Those thought to be part of the plot were dealt with very swiftly, many being put up against a wall and killed right away. The fact remains that BD was still alive just days before the war ended and was never seriously considered by the authorities to be involved in this plot, although he knew so many who were." Appolus

Frank: Did it ever occur to you that the reason DB, and many others were NOT immediately executed was for means of interrogation? and successful interrogation? All together after that night the investigation turned up 4980 suspects, all executed. Bonhoeffer was interrogated many times before his execution , and it is clear, that many, many of the arrested gave up names, and probably his own family or friends gave him up.

I have clearly stated my views, in light of bundles of writing, that I do not see Salvation, or a testimony as to ever being born again. I hope I am wrong, and I was not there at his death. The thief at the cross made it, didn't he. As far as doctrine goes, it's just off the wall, as noble as it may seem.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/julyplot.html
...........................................

"The Nazis implicated thousands of people in the assassination plot, including Bonhoeffer and three members of his immediate family (his brother Klaus and two brothers-in-law). Incriminating documents, hidden by his sister's husband Hans von Dohnanyi, had been found by the Gestapo. Although he did not yet realize the secret papers were in the hands of his enemies, Bonhoeffer was a condemned man. "

* [ How? did the Gestapo find these incriminating papers? I suspect one of his family or friends broke under torture, and began to give up many involved.]

http://www.awesomestories.com/religion/bonhoeffer/attempted-assassination-of-hitler

What was a noble idea dies a quick death. I was thinking about joining. Now I will seek the peace if the Besr den. I only pray Br. Issachar can still salvage something from this.

Bearmaster standing down.

I have no heros per say, but what I do know is that "talk is cheap" until we see those we love being tortured and put to death and the other innocents as well ... we don't truly know our own hearts at this moment of how we will react if we were witness to such atrocites - but what Pastorfrin taught me personally, that "Anger" of any type is within all of us and anger borders on hatred.
If it should ever be our turn to see such atrocites in front of our faces - will anger and hatred be present if we see 'anger' at one another even on just an internet forum.

No one can 'think rationally' when Angered.

To see prolonged suffering as Bonhoeffer and his contemporaries were exposed to - could shake anyone's 'resolves' - even to sound doctrine --- as Richard Wurmbrand testified to in his writings.

It's easy to sit in an air-conditioned home in completely peaceful surroundings and 'think' of what 'we' would do under these Extremes that both of these men were exposed to for years, nonetheless one day of testing by demonic cruelty.

Some humility at this present moment would be highly recommendable.

JIG writes...........

"Some humility at this present moment would be highly recommendable" I definately agree with that sister.

Tom writes............ "I have clearly stated my views, in light of bundles of writing, that I do not see Salvation, or a testimony as to ever being born again. I hope I am wrong, and I was not there at his death. The thief at the cross made it, didn't he. As far as doctrine goes, it's just off the wall, as noble as it may seem."

Well brother, doubling down even after your charges against him were refuted by extensive quotes. Shall we agree to disagree? We have done so before when speaking of Guyon and Tozer?.........bro Frank

"I think I am going to withdraw from taking part in this book study not because of what BT shared but because it seems that instead of reading this book to learn and glean what the LORD would have for us, there is every possibility that instead the words of another man who is no longer living will be picked apart to such a degree that all that will come from this is debates and more debates.
I don't want to debate, I want to learn what the LORD would have me and walk in that. So respectfully I will read on my own."..MaryJane:

This is not the book club study; it IS the discussion forum, and there will be differences here. This one is rather mild, as I see it, without overt anger, and a degree of respect, and some see it one way, and others another, but to pooh-pooh it as irrelevant, and "picking apart another who is no longer living" is not a wise approach, nor particularly mature.

It is very important, to compare, or "debate", as you say it, the doctrines and teachings of a man to the Bible, and the Spirit of Truth? Wouldn't you agree? There must always be a "proving out" of all things, and there always has in the church. There are heresies out there from famous men you know, that are subtle and dangerous. This is the nature of deception.

"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."

This is the at the nature of discussion or debate, and without it, you have immaturity and deception, don't you? This discussion, is that.

"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"

As far as the book club goes, do not allow debate, but keep it focused on the revelatory aspect of passages, and direct it to learning God's heart, and sharing it.

I would keep it closed by the week, by chapter, and only allowing those who read the book with you, who actually owned it off-line. Then, accept new members interested `at the cut-off date, Say Sunday.

Have a limited Rule book, such as no debate, what is God saying, and no negative, critical spirits allowed. I think it is a great idea. What you want could happen, easily, and I hope it does. Have a sign up sheet, and let her rip! Thr format will take form in time. The forum is not an outlined book club; it is a discussion round table with everyone joining in with different ideas, and the important ones to people do seem to be passionate, but that doesn't make it wrong.

MJ wrote..........

"The prison doctor at Flossenburg watched Bonhoeffer die and went on to write these words…
“Through the half-open door in one of the huts I saw Pastor Bonhoeffer, before taking off his prison garb, kneeling on the floor praying fervently to his God. I was most deeply moved by the way this loveable man prayed, so devout and so certain that God heard his prayer. At the place of execution, he again said a short prayer and then climbed the steps to the gallows, brave and composed. His death ensued after a few seconds. In the almost fifty years that I worked as a doctor, I have hardly ever seen a man die so entirely submissive to the will of God.”

Yes sister, so many martyrs have this wonderful testimony. If I were facing hanging by piano wire, I am not sure how composed I would be either sister, yet surely the same Spirit that has been in the Martys would be in us, dont you think? In the natural so many of us would not be able, but in the Spirit He enables..........bro Frank

Martyrs for Christ are trashed here on earth. But they are royally received in heaven. Where Brother Dietrich is now. The opinions of men mean nothing to him. For he is with his Savior.

Bearmaster.

"Yes sister, so many martyrs have this wonderful testimony. If I were facing hanging by piano wire, I am not sure how composed I would be either sister, yet surely the same Spirit that has been in the Martys would be in us, dont you think? In the natural so many of us would not be able, but in the Spirit He enables".....bro Frank

Does it really matter how a man accepts execution? or whether he is calm or brave, or kneels and prays? Does this give him or her credence with God? Do you have any idea how many Roman Catholic Priests or Nuns have been martyred? or Buddhist Priests and monks in the Communists revolutions in the past 100 years? I do know that many died bravely, and I would bet that most of them kneeled and prayed, and probably sang too.

I think what matters is Who a man or woman lived by, The TRUTH Himself, and the fruit they bore, and what they taught about this truth. Living by noble Ethical convictions, that leads you into Social Activism as a creed is fine, but let us not confuse this kind of life as a Christian one; it is not.

Where is the Testimony of a sinner saved in DBs life? Where is the testimony of being born again by the Holy Spirit? ; and add to this the almost tormented philosophical and intellectual spinning of religious theories....!

We will know them by their fruit. Were there salvations following his life?, as there is in every authentic Apostolic teacher or Pastor? What exactly did he teach? His idea of the cost of discipleship was to immerse himself in the cause, for the good of others, even believing that the end justifies the means. This is deep, perverted deception, even unto justifying murder.

We walk by the Spirit, in the Spirit, and if Jesus is our Lord, we choose Jesus to follow Him. We will reflect this in our spiritual life as defined in the Bible; the fruits of the Spirit; love, peace, longsuffering and patient etc.

We also will be bound to the truth in our confession united with our testimony, and will TEACH this simplicity; that is, if we are truly born again.

When I consider DB, I have not bore witness to this, in his writing, nor in his testimony. I detect a religious spirit, always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. If he was born again, the most important and continuing event in a man's life, he did not speak of it, and it was not paramount in his life, or he would have.

He gave himself over to social activism in the most noble of causes; the liberation of the Jews facing the holocaust. He went so far as to plan help in two plots to assassinate their evil leader; [failed].

This was the cause of his martyrdom, not the cause of Christ. He is a noble figure, with many, many more who gave their lives in WW2 in such a way, for the cause of the Jews..[ Schindler's List]..but he is not my hero, nor, do I believe a Christian model, or teacher.

Again, I hope he did find Christ in those days before his execution, and I truly want to meet him in Heaven, if I make it.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/julyplot.html

"At the end of 1943 the Schutz Staffeinel (SS) and the Gestapo managed to arrest several Germans involved in plotting to OVERTHROW Adolf Hitler."

Emphasis mine.

"Overthrow" is not 'assasinate'.

What I do know is that, many of these 'quotes' are not found in the books that they are said to be found in.

What I do know is - the complexities of Hitler's reign is that it was Funded by international bankers and also certain men in high places in the U.S. and elsewhere.
It was an experiment for what's to come. A proto-type and much was learned by those that did and do want a one world dictator in the future that practices genocide. There's much not being researched here about Hitler and WWII.

AND there is no better way to get rid of a honorable man and Not allow him to become a "hero of the faith type martyr, that influences and strengthens other's resolve to come against genocide in the future" than to lie about him, if even in just the misquoting or twisting of his words.

'We' know that the one world leader that they've had in mind to come, will not be overthrown by anyone other than The King of kings at His Return - but these occultic demon possessed rich men of the earth that are waiting to put him on their throne, don't know that 'we' can't and won't attempt to over-throw their man - the son of perdition.

No man is perfect - most especially in the most trying times in history and at such a young age - killed at 39 yrs old - but checking all the links posted against him and knowing the reasons behind Hitler's rise to power and for WWII - what I see is a very craftily designed plan to come against those that opposed such a demonically inspired government as it was.

“Judging others makes us blind, whereas love is illuminating. By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are.”

“Bless them that persecute you.' If our enemy cannot put up with us any longer and takes to cursing us, our immediate reaction must be to lift up our hands and bless him. Our enemies are the blessed of the Lord. Their curse can do us no harm. May their poverty be enriched with all the riches of God, with the blessing of Him whom they seek to oppose in vain. We are ready to endure their curses so long as they redound to their blessing.”

- The Cost of Discipleship

Page 1 of 3 -

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/29333.Dietrich_Bonhoeffer?page=1

"At the end of 1943 the Schutz Staffeinel (SS) and the Gestapo managed to arrest several Germans involved in plotting to OVERTHROW Adolf Hitler."

Emphasis mine.

"Overthrow" is not 'assassinate'. JiG...........

BT; response: Oh, but it is one in the same. Consider Solomon's justice on everyone involved in the conspiracies to dethrone him., as being guilty; and in this case, overthrow was murder.

Consider the assassination of President A. Lincoln. John Wilkes Booth pulled the trigger, and was killed by legal police, but everyone he talked to involved, that even knew about it and did not reveal this plot, was executed, 4 men and one woman, who may have only overheard the discussion of the cabal at her hotel.

True, no man is perfect, and sins, as do I. The issue here is not his death caused by his crime, but his life, and the perverted teachings he disguised as the Gospel; IE: Moral Relativism, or Ethical Socialism, versus the Cross, and being born again by the Spirit of God.

The former is deception, and will lead you away from God; it ins in this sense, heresy.

But, on a deeper level, what is the issue here?
I SAID:
"We will know them by their fruit. Were there salvations following his life?, as there is in every authentic Apostolic teacher or Pastor? What exactly did he teach?

His idea of the cost of discipleship was to immerse himself in the cause, for the good of others, even believing that the end justifies the means. This is deep, perverted deception, even unto justifying murder."

JiG quoted DB; "Judging others makes us blind, whereas love is illuminating. By judging others we blind ourselves to our own evil and to the grace which others are just as entitled to as we are.”

“Bless them that persecute you.' If our enemy cannot put up with us any longer and takes to cursing us, our immediate reaction must be to lift up our hands and bless him. Our enemies are the blessed of the Lord. Their curse can do us no harm. May their poverty be enriched with all the riches of God, with the blessing of Him whom they seek to oppose in vain. We are ready to endure their curses so long as they redound to their blessing.”

- The Cost of Discipleship .DB

Very moving and spiritual confession, but when confronted with the reality of living it, he endured none of it, and conspired to murder rather than to bless.

He sealed this hypocrisy, sadly, with his own blood.

He began to say unto his disciples first of all," Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops."

"Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops."

On 'this', you and we can definitely Count On, Tom.

Brothertom. MJ and I and bearmaster and in fact almost every other person are having a conversation about a dear brother in Christ. You have made your charges, which were soundly refuted by Rbanks and others and you fell silent after that on the hertic issues and the God is dead statement and the " he did not believe in the ressurection,' statements. We agreed, or so I thought, to disagree. You are entitiled to your opinion and you have expressed it. I was expressing my admiration for how this dear saint died, I am not sure why you would choose to interject on this comment between MJ and I and Bearmaster. What purpose does it serve? You have already stated plainly what you believe, most others disagree with you, but perhaps now you are simply flogging a dead horse? There should be a purpose for our comments on the forum...........bro Frank

"What purpose does it serve? You have already stated plainly what you believe, most others disagree with you, but perhaps now you are simply flogging a dead horse? There should be a purpose for our comments on the forum"...........Frank

Actually, Frank, I simply responded to the direction of the thread, and in my experience, that what a thread actually is. Many as yourself, directly requested my thoughts, by way of challenge. It may be difficult for you to see this, but couldn't your assessment of me, and the above statement, could be directly aimed at yourself also.

Never-the-less, you are right. I've done enough "flogging" here, and I have made my point, which I consider relevant, at least to the cause of what sound doctrine and what true Christian Activism is, and what it is not.

Your assertion that "Most others disagree with me" may not be absolutely true; Though the number of saints who agree with me doesn't matter a whit,* I have communications with some who support me, and the ideas I expressed, and in my mind proved, against a faith in a Ethics Driven Gospel, Humanism, and Social Activism as the authentic Gospel;
[ Which DB did.]

It is not, but deep deception, and for those who may believe it as a path to God, dangerous and filled with mental ambiguity, as ideas and practical ethics become melded into the fires of a soulish righteousness that "The End does justify the means!"

He wrote a number of inspiring books, "The Cost" being most famous, and from time to time lifted up very inspiring maxims about the heart of moral action, and discipleship, but this in itself does not make the man, his deeds do. He became an underground resistance spy and helped the plot to assassinate Hitler, did he not? In his mind, this was serving Christ in testimony. I say not.

This, in the end was DBs testimony, and his martyrdom itself laid down upon this one and same alter, and sadly, apart from the Gospel of Christ.

* I was thinking of Paul the Apostles courageous stand against the mighty Peter about the Judaizers, and Peter's elitist, religious Jewishness. He may have been the only Christian in the world who understood and confronted the hypocrisy started here, and can you imagine the impact! If he did not, we could not fellowship a Messianic believer in spirit and truth today!

Paul did so absolutely alone..[ even Barnabas was carried away...]

Sometimes we must think and act alone.

"Sometimes we must think and act alone."

Well brother, on that we can agree :) I definately would agree with that and walking the path can be a narrow lonely experience. All I would say, in conclusion BT, you were never asked your opinon about this man. This thread started of with the purpose of doing a book study. You mad e a decision to " tear him down,' and I am sure you are fully convicted in doing that. But that was not the purpose of this thread, it might even be a hijacking of this thread which is not the purpose of the forum. Perhaps you could have started another thread, in fact you may want to start a thread and give a list of people that you consider to be heretical and in no way Christian. It may be your "Paulean stand," but others will be able to see where you are coming from and who you would consider heretics. I know of two others at least who would be on your list as we have bumped heads on that before :)

My request for you to start such a thread is obviously tongue in cheek. It would probably be more encouraging for you to share writers from the past who you do consider Godly..................bro Frank

Frank: Done floggin'. At least you know where I stand. I will continue , as I am allowed, and with respect, to express my views on issues , and ministries, and express my views as in relation to truth and error.

I am not ashamed at all about these views, and I am either wrong, or right, but I would say them again, if I see a deceiver, or error; and let the axe fall where it is, as I also do when I am blessed and ministered to.

I have no desire to offend what-so-ever, and often I post about more edifying topics than the expose'; they will offend those who esteem that minister, I have learned. I hope to live the entirety of the rest of my life bonded to this idea, and hopefully bare fruit out here, in the real world, outside the confines of persona's and ideology.

What people believe as truth is important to me, for it shapes what they believe, and ultimately WHO they believe, which in turn shapes their faith, which will mandate their entire eternity; with Christ Jesus or without Him, forever and forever. True love is wanting a person to be with Christ and His heaven.

I want to give myself to loving the truth, and allowing it to slay me, while forming the Truth in me, a PERSON. I am a miserable failure in this endeavor, yes, and exhibit much more pride and flesh than truth, but I get up again, beg for mercy, and move on.

The often barbs and jabs and cries of "How dare you!".....[ and I won't mention those who so minister to me, there are many..] serve to keep me more balanced and patient, and clear-minded. This is but a discussion forum after all, and there will be many who disagree.

In the end, I want to preach the gospel to the poor, see men saved in Spirit and Truth, and established in these Kingdom Truths, so that they will be able to grow and endure the great winds of error and deception sweeping down upon us in Tsunami intensity.

http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/?view=classic

I have about 35 articles I have posted on my log-site. If you are interested in more of the "positive" stuff, teachings and prophesy and the like, you may check this out.

I am soon to take a sabbatical from this Internet, and all things electronic, and escape somewhere to be broken, and repent of a very hard heart. Then, in September I am headed for a gospel mission into the war torn, jihad infested part of Africa, by the command of the Lord; Eritrea. This is the most sobering mission I have ever considered, and I must go.

Iron sharpens iron, and I appreciate everybody who has put my nose to the whetstone, and I mean that. I am sharper for the experience.

Dear KP, this is your thread and I love your idea of going through this book together.

Could I just beg a question ... Could you start it on another fresh thread, on whatever date you come to?

Thank you Brother!

That's Wonderful to know, Sister! :) Makes it easier for me in certain ways to not feel intimidated to just speak freely. Have truly appreciated you - your zeal, burdens and down-right friendliness & sincere kindness.
Have been glad your skin is thick enough to hang around. Atta Girl!

His Love to you as well and All His Best!