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"TEA PARTY" - WHAT a REACTION! by Andrew Strom

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sermonindex


"TEA PARTY" - WHAT a REACTION!
-by Andrew Strom.

I knew there might be an "ugly" reaction to my post last week about
the Tea Party, but even so I was pretty distressed by the personal
attacks and nasty remarks. I was saddened too by the many people
who wanted to turn the whole thing into a 'POLITICAL' debate, when
the entire point of my article was the 'SPIRITUAL' aspect - about
how aggressive "Political Activism" can ruin our Christian witness.

People accused me of being "Anti-American", though I have said
many times how much I love that nation, having lived there for four
years and ministered to Americans for 16 years. It is my love for
that country - as well as my love for Jesus - that compels me to
speak out. I sense a terrible ugliness growing in the "Christian
Politics" scene - and it seems to be getting worse. I truly fear for
the future of Christianity in the USA if this ugliness continues.

Others accused me of getting my views from the "liberal media".
Actually, I am on the Tea Party mailing List and I get almost all
my info direct from conservative Christians and Tea Party people.
That is what makes it so sad, so ugly and so unchristian.

Just today I got the latest email from "TeaParty.org". The headline
reads- "LIMBAUGH: 'OBAMA HATES THIS COUNTRY'. And further
down we read - "Tea Party To Expose 'America's Fraud President'
To 1 Million Households! - Donate now!"

Can anybody tell me why Christians should be involved in anything
so ugly and un-Christlike? -And this is just "mild" nastiness
compared to the really ugly "Anti-Obama" emails that other
Christians send me. I must ask - what kind of 'Christianity' is this?
It is one thing to "disagree" with a President. It is quite another
to participate in a giant campaign of slander, muck-raking, gossip
and ugliness against him. Is this "Christian" behaviour in any way?

That is what I mean about the damage this is doing to the Christian
witness in the USA. The evangelical Christians are getting a
reputation for being harsh, nasty, aggressive and mean-spirited.
Where is Christ in all of this? Why are we getting caught up in
'POLITICAL' battles when the true problems in America are
"SPIRITUAL"? Why are we fighting with the "arm of the flesh"?

The Bible is very clear - "We wrestle NOT against flesh and blood,"
but against principalities and powers in high places. (Eph 6:12).
And as we saw last week, Jesus was also clear: "My kingdom is
not of this world. If my kingdom was of this world, THEN would
my servants fight" (Jn 18:36). So the reason Christ's servants are
not to "FIGHT" using the 'arm of the flesh' is that we belong to a
different kingdom. We are not supposed to be battling and agitating
and plotting to gain control of this earthly one!

So why the big "campaign"? At the end of the day, it doesn't even
achieve anything for the true spiritual state of the country. Only a
Christian Revival can do that. Only a true "SPIRITUAL" Awakening
of gospel power and prayer. Nothing 'Political' can make the slightest
difference to the inner state of people's hearts. A "mass invasion"
of God's Holy Spirit is the only thing that can do it.

So STOP the ugly 'Political' activism! Stop getting distracted by
"fleshly" battles! And start focusing on what really matters - the
desperate need for a true 'Spiritual' Awakening! (-Which cannot
be advanced in any way through Politics. It is a whole different
kingdom).

And please, turn Limbaugh and Fox News OFF! They are simply
making capital off winding up the Conservatives and making them
madder and madder. -Not Christian at all. Switch these people OFF!

In closing, I want to apologize to anyone who was offended by my
last article. I love America as a nation very deeply, but I love God
and true Christianity even more. And it is this that compels me
to write the way I do - even though I know I will get "bashed" for it.
My sincere apologies to anyone who was offended.

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sermonindex

In these days, when you get such a strong reaction, than you must have stepped on someone's golden calf.

The Tea Party is all about what they perceive is 'their money'.

It's not to defend the lives of unborn babies, the persecuted Church world-wide, euthenasia of the elderly and disabled - but just their pocket books.

These people are going to be the excuse that the powers that be use to exterminate Christians in this country.


And please, turn Limbaugh and Fox News OFF! They are simply making capital off winding up the Conservatives and making them madder and madder. -Not Christian at all. Switch these people OFF!


ALL television is controlled by the same people these people are suppose to be protesting. All media is controlled for social mind control engineering and for 'response' that they have had plans to 'respond to' in response. The rich men of the earth "cause the problem - for a reaction - so they can pull out their 'solution' for."

If these people don't believe that there are infiltrators and provocateurs mixing in with them in their 'party' and media to bring about this "problem-reaction-solution" endgame - they're a bunch of uneducated, 'blinded' by greed and this world bunch of people, that love the things in this world more than Christ Jesus, Himself.


Never apologize when you're right, for the offense taken by those that are wrong. Jesus nor Paul, etc never did.


Take care.

P
pilgrim777

Can anybody tell me why Christians should be involved in anything so ugly and un-Christlike? -And this is just "mild" nastiness compared to the really ugly "Anti-Obama" emails that other Christians send me. I must ask - what kind of 'Christianity' is this?

It is one thing to "disagree" with a President. It is quite another to participate in a giant campaign of slander, muck-raking, gossip and ugliness against him. Is this "Christian" behaviour in any way?

I am not a proponent of politics as a tool for the Gospel, but with this statement (above) alone, Andrew sets himself up as judge towards any Christian that might be involved with the Tea Party. What is unfortunate about this is Andrew is judging that any Christian involved in the Tea Party is engaging in slander, muck-raking, gossip and ugliness.

We have to be careful about vilifying our brethren because of their associations with organizations. I mean, is the Tea Party now equivalent with the KKK? If so, I stand corrected. I certainly don't think Christians should be members of the KKK.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

I know you are surprised that I am saying this since I am pretty anti-political, but it is one thing to talk about the pros and cons of politics with regard to spiritual things and it is quite another to vilify ALL people associated with certain organizations.

Why doesn't he just get specific and name the names he is really concerned about? What is the next group of Christians he is going to vilify because they are part of "__________" organization?

Maybe he will start with the household of God and let us all know what religious organizations he approves of and which ones he doesn't. I certainly wouldn't want to be part of something that Andy doesn't approve of.

Seems like a colossal waste of time to me to be impugning people like this. Maybe things are a bit slow on his website since he shut down his forum because he couldn't handle strong medicine from others. One way to get some strong reactions is to impugn a very large organization and everyone associated with it. Mission succeeded!

Pilgrim

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sermonindex

What you quoted, Pilgrim, was his direct response to this email he received ...

"Just today I got the latest email from "TeaParty.org". The headline
reads- "LIMBAUGH: 'OBAMA HATES THIS COUNTRY'. And further
down we read - "Tea Party To Expose 'America's Fraud President'
To 1 Million Households! - Donate now!""


You'll see in his article that your quote comes right after this email as his response to 'it'.

He did well to shut down his forum. You can reply to his articles on his site still.

I for one am "surprised that you are saying this."


Have these people ever demonstrated with such vigor and length of time over the starving people in other countries or the inhumanity to man in other countries?

Have they ever joined together in such a force to help the homeless in our own country?
I could go on with these type questions.

These people need to read their Bibles - if they can find them.

Job 2:10 But he said to her, You speak as one of the foolish ones speak. Also, shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.


According to His Word, He gives the people / the nations the kings/government that their morality deserves.


I understand that your eschatology is not the same as most others in the Body, but you may want to consider what role "protesting" plays in what we see as the last days ... maybe?


All the best.

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sermonindex

A few have been saying persecun is coming to America. I think U see who will be doing the persecuting. It will nit be the secular humanist Ir the Moslens. But it will be the civil religion if tight wi.g politics and evangelicals. This makes for a dangerous combination.

I am more uneasy when a rabid conservative comes to power. When the American flag is wrapped up in the Bible I think of those who were martyred in such systems. Those from the time of Jesus through to the Anabaptist until now. So I start wonering where the nearest FEMA detention center is. And start getting prepared to be a guest there.

Seeing how the Tea Party is spitting venomous hate toward Andrew Storm. And these are supposedly Christians. I summize that those who betray the remnant will be other supposed Christians. After all it SAS the religious conservatives who put Jesus to death. It was the religious conservatives who put the Anabaptist to death. It will be the religious conservatives who will hunt the remnant down and martyr them in this country.

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

A few have been saying persecution is coming to America. I think one sees who will be doing the persecuting. It will not be the secular humanist or the Moslems. But it will be the civil religion of right wing politics and evangelicals. This makes for a dangerous combination.

I am more uneasy when a rabid conservative comes to power. When the American flag is wrapped up in the Bible I think of those who were martyred in such systems. Those from the time of Jesus through to the Anabaptist until now. So I start wondering where the nearest FEMA detention center is. And start getting prepared to be a guest there.

Seeing how the Tea Party is spitting venomous hate toward Andrew Strom. And these are supposedly Christians. I summize that those who betray the remnant will be other supposed Christians. After all it was the religious conservatives who put Jesus to death. It was the religious conservatives who put the Anabaptist to death. It will be the religious conservatives who will hunt the remnant down and martyr them in this country.

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

Andrew writes..........

"And please, turn Limbaugh and Fox News OFF! They are simply making capital off winding up the Conservatives and making them madder and madder. -Not Christian at all. Switch these people OFF!


Good for you Andrew, I have been saying that on my own site for years now. Limbaugh and Hannity and Coulter and all those guys are modern day " seers," and they have been enriched by the muck and the hate that they constantly churn up. The sad thing is that so many of their audience or listeners are Christians.

Pilgrim writes............

"I know you are surprised that I am saying this since I am pretty anti-political, but it is one thing to talk about the pros and cons of politics with regard to spiritual things and it is quite another to vilify ALL people associated with certain organizations"

I am surprised Pilgrim. Anyhow, I am sure you will remember at the debates earlier for the nomination, that when the questioner posed the hypothetical of a young man who had no insurance but who was gravely hurt and what should be done with the and the crowd started chanting " let him die." Does any Christian want to be involed in any association that has this kind of thing going on? Of course that is just one example, I could give example after example of things that Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity and Coulter have said that would make even regular folks who are not Christians cringe. If you run with certain crowds or groups Pilgrim you will be associated with them, that is why Christians should not be running with groups. All of our association should be with Jesus and Him alone. If we are going to hated and persecuted for anything, let us be hated and persecuted for the cause of Christ alone, and not as a right-winger or a left winger..........bro Frank

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learjet

I would have to agree with Andrew and the nastiness, it is getting worse every day. Additionally, I would agree with his take on the Tea Party, it's spot on however I would not stop there.

If you stand back from a neutral position you will see that the left does the same thing that the groups on the right do. MediaMatters and MoveOn.org are doing the same exact thing, they stir up hatred and use it to raise money. Both the liberal and the conservative are guilty.

To be honest I'm having a hard time understanding why Andrew would be 'shocked' by this, it's clear in the Word that 'the love of many will wax cold', persecution and lawlessness will increase. The Words written in the Bible are TRUE, they are not just stories.

If you choose to write a letter that is critical of a bunch of snakes, expect to get bit, it just goes with the territory. This is only the beginning, soon people will kill us thinking they are doing the Lord a favor (they will honestly believe this in their hearts).

Personally, I'm thankful for brothers and sisters like these, they have the courage to speak the truth in love.

Much love!

P
pilgrim777

I am surprised Pilgrim. Anyhow, I am sure you will remember at the debates earlier for the nomination, that when the questioner posed the hypothetical of a young man who had no insurance but who was gravely hurt and what should be done with the and the crowd started chanting " let him die." Does any Christian want to be involed in any association that has this kind of thing going on?

Hi Frank, I did not watch any debates, much to the chagrin of a Mormon that I work with who is working overtime to convert me to Romney. I told him I am not anti-Romney or anti-Obama, I am pro-Jesus. He just walks away shaking his head. I'm sorry, I can't tell you a thing about the debates.

Of course that is just one example, I could give example after example of things that Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity and Coulter have said that would make even regular folks who are not Christians cringe.

I am not defending any personality or organization but something does not sit well with my "gut" about all of this vilification going on.

If you run with certain crowds or groups Pilgrim you will be associated with them, that is why Christians should not be running with groups. All of our association should be with Jesus and Him alone. If we are going to hated and persecuted for anything, let us be hated and persecuted for the cause of Christ alone, and not as a right-winger or a left winger..........bro Frank

that is why Christians should not be running with groups.

This is a big statement, Apollus. Wasn't Bonhoeffer a member of a "Group"? Was he associated with the wrong group? Would you say he was known by his associations? Do you know loving Christians that are members of the Republican party, anti-abortion groups, etc, etc. Do you see what I am saying?

I agree that we should be hated and persecuted for the cause of Christ alone, but we should also not try to alienate people on purpose.

Pilgrim

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Solomon101

While I respect Andrew on several levels it seems to me that this is a little ridiculous.

Andrew published an article that paints an entire group with broad sweeping strokes of condemnation. He has some good points but paints so broadly as to condemn everyone... some who clearly do not fit his definition. He throws the baby out with the bath water, so to speak.

He then is "surprised" that some push back against his inaccurate over generalizations of them? Well of course they pushed back! They felt unjustly attacked.

It is the second time it appears he is creating publicity and traffic flow to his website using another group as the buzz word for his articles.

Previously he published a couple of booklets entitled, "WHY I LEFT THE PROPHETIC MOVEMENT". Well... that's fine of course. He can associate with anyone who chooses to or not. However, I could not help but notice that there is no definition as to what it means to "Leave the movement". They had no credentials with any specific group, no central governing structure, no actual leadership, no "prophetic movement affiliate churches"...nothing... absolutely nothing! There was really nothing to leave.. and no way to leave what doesn't actually exist.

As far as I can distinguish it merely means he quit going to a few peoples meetings. That is all that happened. He just quit attending meetings where a half dozen different guys were speaking... that's all there was to it. So more accurately, "I quit attending meetings where so and so was preaching" is all there was to it. However, he did publish a book with lots of peoples names in it. That willingness to place the NAMES OF OTHERS (who were better known) in it sold a great many books for Andrew. It also created masses of traffic flow to his website and gained him much exposure. It appears that the fact that others were well known, and thereby capitalization could be made on their name recognition, was primarily what sold the books. It is unlikely that a book by Andrew, that was simply a critique of the issues ,would have gotten much publicity. However, when he calls a few well known folks by name.. calls them a few heretical things,....their well known their name recognition is then ridden to the book sales door. I , along with many others by email, were asked to help promote his book(s) I believe there is a part 1 and 2.

If I see a new book from him soon that prominently lists "The Tea Party" in the title I will certainly feel it is more of the same. Using the name recognition of another group to get free piggy backed publicity for his book sales.

I may be wrong, I certainly hope so. As I said, I like much of what Andrew has done.... but these last two efforts using the names of others to promote ones self are difficult to stomach in my opinion.

He "Left The Prophetic Movement"... that means absolutely nothing. There is nothing to leave! It's not like saying, "I resigned my credentials from the Southern Baptist Convention over these issues". That we could understand. This, "leaving the prophetic movement" just means he quit attending services that a few guys were speaking at... that's it. Nothing more or less. But it did create lots of publicity for him.

I am concerned this is exactly the same. We will see further writings/publications with Andrew using "The Tea Party" as the impetus to create publicity, sell books,increase website traffic, and book meetings. Emails citing how critical it is to get this anti Tea Party book into everyones hands...same song different verse. Again, I hope that it does not happen as I like and respect much of Andrew's other work.

I am not a Tea Party member so I don't feel this need to push back although I can see how some of them would. This is especially true if they do not align with his broad strokes of condemnation and feel unjustly assaulted by Andrew.

I agree with most others that have posted. Politics and Religion are very poor roommates. It rarely goes well.

T
TMK

Bearmaster wrote:

"So I start wondering where the nearest FEMA detention center is. And start getting prepared to be a guest there."

Good grief.

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sermonindex

HI Pilgrim,

If you have not seen the debates or watch TV and so on, can I ask you what you would base you viewpoint of the Tea Party on? Its an honest question brother. I think my point about the groups thing is simply age old wisdom bro, you will be identified by the group( whether large or small) that you run with. If this group believe that they can change America through the political process and you run with that group, then people will assume that you believe what they believe, otherwise why would one be part of that group in the first place? I have heard argument from " Christians," personallhy, who are freemasons that freemasons are basicly good people who do a lot of good. Perhaps there are many good people within the freemason group, but they are identified by being attached to that group.

Not sure I want to drag Bonhoffer into this discussion :) But yes, he was part of the " Confessing Church," and I think he would have been delighted to be identified as such because he believed that the "German church," had lost its way, the State church. And you guess rightly about me Pilgrim, I would not want to be known as a "Republican," or a "Democrat." All I want to be known for is being a follower of Jesus. I would not want to be known as a Baptist or a Pentecostal or a Catholic or any other named group no matter how well respected any of these groups are or how much good works that they do.

"I agree that we should be hated and persecuted for the cause of Christ alone, but we should also not try to alienate people on purpose."

Have no idea what that means in regard to our conversation, do you know anyone who is deliberatly trying to alienate people brother? Do you think there is someone with the express purpose and with deliberation just setting out to alinate people? What would be the purpose or the motivation for doing that? ............bro Frank

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sermonindex

The Right-Wing's 20 Biggest Sex Hypocrites
By Alex Henderson, AlterNet
Posted on May 3, 2012, Printed on July 17, 2012
http://www.alternet.org/story/155253/the_right-wing%27s_20_biggest_sex_hypocrites

The Republican Party wasn’t always synonymous with far-right Christian fundamentalism. The late five-term Arizona Sen. Barry Goldwater, who was considered the epitome of an arch-conservative when he ran for president against Democrat Lyndon B. Johnson in 1964, had no use for the Religious Right. Goldwater famously said that “the Religious Right scares the hell out of me,” and he said of the Rev. Jerry Falwell, “All good Christians should kick him in the ass.”

It isn’t that Goldwater abandoned right-wing ideas and became passionately liberal/progressive; rather, the Republican Party moved way to the right of him on social issues. From the early 1980s on, the GOP has pushed an agenda of militant social conservatism—and the more the GOP became the party of far-right Christian fundamentalism, the more Republican politicians and the evangelists who supported them became involved in major sex scandals.

Of course, the Democratic Party has had plenty of sex scandals as well. But most of the Democrats who have become involved in major sex scandals (Bill Clinton, John Edwards, Anthony Weiner, Gary Hart, among others) had not marketed themselves as extreme moralists. Post-1970s Republicans, all too often, have been self-righteous, preachy, overbearing, holier-than-thou witch hunters—and in many cases, the ones who screamed the loudest about how godly they were turned out to be the exact opposite. Below are 20 of the top socially conservative hypocrites of the Religious Right.

1. Jimmy Swaggart

Pentecostal televangelist Jimmy Swaggart, who is a cousin of rock-and-roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis and country singer Mickey Gilley, was preaching fire-and-brimstone Christian fundamentalism before the 1980s; his television program started in 1975. But it was during the 1980s that Swaggart rose to prominence in right-wing politics and, along with Rev. Jerry Falwell, Rev. James Robison and Rev. Pat Robertson, greatly influenced the Christian Right’s influence on the GOP. Swaggart’s sermons are as political as they are religious, and he has never been shy about describing feminists, liberals, Democrats and rock musicians as agents of Satan who promote immorality at every turn. But in 1988, it was revealed that the adulterous Swaggart had been cheating on his wife with a New Orleans prostitute named Debra Murphree. And his association with prostitutes did not end after his famous “I have sinned” speech of 1988. In 1991, Swaggart was with prostitute Rosemary Garcia when he was pulled over by the California Highway Patrol; Garcia said Swaggart had asked her for sex. On top of all that, Swaggart has admitted to having a long history of porn consumption (even though he has often called for tougher enforcement of obscenity laws). And he appears to have dabbled in something else Christian fundamentalists condemn: BDSM. In a 1989 Penthouse interview, a woman named Catherine Campen said that when she was having an affair with Swaggart, he asked her to beat him with a riding crop.

2. Laura Schlessinger

Although America’s Religious Right has been dominated by Protestant fundamentalists, not all far-right culture warriors are Pentecostals or Southern Baptists. For example, talk radio host Laura Schlessinger, a.k.a. Dr. Laura, was a convert to Orthodox Judaism (before renouncing it in 2003), and she has made a career out of railing against sex education, abortion, premarital sex, porn, feminism and homosexuality (the gay-bashing Schlessinger once said that “a huge portion of the male homosexual populace is predatory on young boys”). But for all her moralizing, Schlessinger hasn’t always acted like a Puritan; in the late 1990s, some nude and topless photos she had posed for in the mid-1970s were published on the Internet. The photos were taken by the late radio shock-jock Bill Balance, who sold them to an adult Web site. Schlessinger filed a lawsuit for invasion of privacy and copyright infringement, but a court ruled that the photos were not her intellectual property. Schlessinger’s “queen of family values” routine is also laughable considering that when her mother died in 2002, it was widely reported that Dr. Laura hadn’t spoken to her since 1986.

3. Newt Gingrich

In 1998, President Bill Clinton was lambasted by a long list of Republicans when it was revealed that he had cheated on his wife, Hillary Clinton, with intern Monica Lewinsky. One of his loudest critics was House of Representatives Speaker Newt Gingrich (who asserted that Clinton showed “a level of disrespect and decadence that should appall every American”). But while Gingrich was lambasting Clinton for committing adultery and trying to get him impeached, he was also cheating on his second wife, Marianne Ginther, with a woman (Callista Bisek, who became his third wife) who was 20 years younger. And that wasn’t the first time Gingrich committed adultery. In the early 1980s, Gingrich cheated on his first wife, Jackie Battley, with Ginther—and when Battley was in the hospital recovering from cancer surgery, Gingrich insisted on discussing the terms of their divorce. After that, Mr. Family Values refused to pay Battley either alimony or child support (a local church took up a collection to help her out financially). Despite his history of serial adultery, Gingrich had no problem playing the “family values” card during his recent bid for the GOP presidential nomination.

4. David Vitter

Sen. David Vitter of Louisiana is infamous for his extreme social conservatism and for pandering to the Christian Right. Vitter has supported a constitutional amendment that would ban gay marriage nationwide (although he claims to support “states rights,” Vitter makes an exception when it comes to gay marriage), promoted abstinence-only sex education, called for school board meetings in Louisiana to open with prayers, and repeatedly preached against abortion. Vitter loves to play the red state/blue state card, saying that he represents socially conservative “Louisiana values” rather than secular “Massachusetts values.” But in 2007, it was revealed that Vitter had been a client of the Washington, DC escort service operated by Deborah Jeane Palfrey, a.k.a. the DC Madam; Vitter admitted he had cheated on his wife with a prostitute, but no criminal charges were filed because of the statute of limitations. Despite his blatant hypocrisy, Vitter was re-elected to the Senate in 2010.

5. Rush Limbaugh

“The Rush Limbaugh Show” has always been full of sexual contradictions. On one hand, the far-right talk radio host has a long history of supporting the Christian Right and telling his audience that the Republican Party is the true voice of morality in the United States. On the other hand, the twice-divorced Limbaugh is quite fond of off-color humor (“PMSNBC” is his name for MSNBC) and sexual innuendos. Limbaugh will use sex to boost ratings at the same time he’s preaching God, family values and morality to the GOP base. Limbaugh’s schizophrenic relationship with sex was recently exemplified by his heavily publicized attack on Georgetown University law student Sandra Fluke, whom he denounced as a “slut” and a “prostitute” for saying that health insurance plans should cover female contraception. Limbaugh said that if other people were going to pay for Fluke to have sex, she should film the sexual act for his viewing pleasure. In other words, he was asking Fluke to make a porn video, which is ironic in light of how much time Republicans have spent railing against the adult entertainment industry. Limbaugh’s hypocrisy doesn’t end there; previous Limbaugh scandals have ranged from his well-documented addiction to painkillers in 2003 to being detained for three hours at the Palm Beach Airport in 2006 for possessing a bottle of Viagra that wasn’t in his name.

6. Larry Craig

During the many years he spent in Congress (18 years in the Senate preceded by 10 years in the House of Representatives), Republican Larry Craig of Idaho was a strident social conservative with a very anti-gay record. Craig opposed gay men serving in the U.S. military, and he favored adding an amendment to the U.S. Constitution that would have outlawed same-sex marriage nationwide. The Human Rights Campaign, an LGBT advocacy group that rates politicians’ voting records on gay issues, gave Craig a rating of 0 in 2004. But in June 2007, the married Craig was arrested for lewd conduct in a men’s room stall at the Minneapolis/St. Paul International Airport; an undercover police officer said that Craig’s behavior indicated he was seeking a sexual encounter (Craig pled guilty to a lesser charge of disorderly conduct). And in December 2007, no less than eight gay men alleged to the Idaho Statesman that they had either had sexual affairs with Craig or that he had made sexual advances to them.

7. Ted Haggard

Evangelical minister Ted Haggard has never been known for embracing a moderate approach to Protestant Christianity. Very much a fundamentalist, Haggard was a strong supporter of George W. Bush’s presidency and did a lot to rally GOP “values voters” in 2004. Haggard has been quite the culture warrior, loudly preaching against abortion, premarital sex, adultery and gay marriage. But in 2006, a male escort named Mike Jones revealed that the married Haggard had been a client; in addition to paying for sex and committing adultery, Jones said, Haggard was fond of using crystal meth. Admitting to his followers that he was guilty of “sexual immorality,” Jones resigned from his position with the National Association of Evangelicals.

8. Henry Hyde

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, but the late Illinois Republican Henry Hyde (who spent 32 years in the House of Representatives and died in 2007) threw plenty of stones (figuratively speaking) during the impeachment proceedings against Bill Clinton. Clinton, Hyde insisted, had disgraced the presidency by committing adultery and lying about it under oath. But it turned out that Hyde had his own history of adultery. In the 1960s, Hyde was married with four sons when he had an affair with a woman named Cherie Snodgrass, who had three children with Fred Snodgrass, her husband at the time. In a 1998 interview with Salon.com, Fred Snodgrass denounced Hyde as a “hypocrite who broke up my family.” Hyde described his affair with Cherie as a “youthful indiscretion,” although he was 41 when the affair started.

9. Jim Bakker

Jimmy Swaggart was not the first right-wing Pentecostal televangelist to be involved in a major sex scandal. In 1987, Jim Bakker (who co-hosted “The PTL Club” with his wife, Tammy Faye Bakker) was disgraced when it came out that he had cheated on his wife with church secretary Jessica Hahn and paid her $265,000 to keep quiet. In 1989, Bakker was convicted of fraud and racketeering charges in a federal court and sentenced to 45 years in prison and a $500,000 fine, but he was granted parole in 1994. Swaggart, ironically, was vehemently critical of Bakker in 1987, calling him “a cancer on the body of Christ” because of his affair with Hahn—and all the while, Swaggart was every bit the adulterer himself.

10. James West

The late Republican James West, who died in 2006, was a champion of anti-gay causes during his years in Washington State politics (first in the Washington State senate, then as mayor of Spokane). West promoted, among other things, a blatantly discriminatory bill that would have prohibited gay men and women from working for schools, daycare centers and certain state agencies. But in 2004, West was caught in a sex scandal when the Spokane Spokesman-Review conducted a sting operation and alleged that West, in a gay online chat room, offered a possible City Hall internship to someone he thought was an 18-year-old man (in reality, the “18-year-old” was a private investigator hired by the Spokesman-Review). The Spokane County Republican Party called for West’s resignation, and in 2005, he lost his position as mayor when voters opted to recall him.

11. John Ensign

During the years he represented Nevada in the U.S. Senate (and before that, the House of Representatives), Republican John Ensign was held in high regard by the Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family and other Christian Right theocrats. Staunchly anti-abortion, he was a Pentecostal who considered himself “born again.” He voted in favor of a constitutional ban on gay marriage, and he was active in the Promise Keepers. The Christian Coalition gave him a 100% rating in 2003, while the Human Rights Campaign gave him a rating of only 11% in 2006. Like many other Republicans, Ensign called for Bill Clinton’s resignation in 1998, saying that an adulterer was unfit to be president. But as much as Ensign liked to talk about the sanctity of marriage, he didn’t practice what he preached; Ensign ended up resigning from the Senate in 2011 because of the scandal surrounding his adulterous affair with Cynthia Hampton, the wife of Douglas Hampton, an administrative aid in Ensign’s office and a close personal friend.

12. Michael D. Duvall


As a member of the California State Assembly, Republican Michael D. Duvall had a reputation for being an outspoken social conservative. Duvall opposed abortion as much as he opposed gay marriage, and he insisted that heterosexual marriage had to be protected because it was the backbone of America. But in 2009, Duvall not only admitted to cheating on his wife, he bragged about it. During a lull in an appropriations committee meeting, Duvall told fellow California State Assembly member Jeff Miller that he had been cheating on his wife with two different women (one of them a lobbyist). Duvall didn’t realize that a microphone was picking up the conversation, and his comments, some of which were quite graphic, became a matter of public record. For someone who loved to paint himself as a staunch moralist, Duvall certainly took a great deal of pride in committing adultery. Duvall resigned from the California State Assembly the day after the story broke.

13. Bob Allen

Like James West and Larry Craig, Bob Allen is among the Republican politicians who has a history of being anti-gay but ended up in a gay sex scandal. Allen supported a lot of anti-gay legislation during the seven years he spent in the Florida House of Representatives. In July 2007, Allen was arrested after offering to pay an undercover police officer $20 if he could perform oral sex on him in the public restroom where they met. Found guilty of solicitation for prostitution, Allen didn’t serve any jail time, but was sentenced to six months probation and fined $250. Allen resigned from the Florida House of Representatives shortly after that.

14. Tony Alamo

In the 1970s, evangelist/cult leader Tony Alamo, a.k.a. Bernie Lazar Hoffman and his wife Susan made a name for themselves in evangelical circles preaching a far-right version of fire-and-brimstone fundamentalism. But in the '80s, Alamo’s behavior became so bizarre that much of the Christian Right distanced itself from him. After his wife’s death from cancer in 1982, Alamo put her embalmed body on display for months and insisted that when his congregation raised her from the dead, she would tell them when Jesus Christ would return to Earth. Also around that time Alamo began publishing his conspiracy theories involving the Catholic Church (which he considered “the Great Whore of Babylon” and believed was controlling the Soviet Union, Islamic terrorists and the Reagan Administration all at the same time). Initially, Alamo was a Ronald Reagan supporter, although he turned against Reagan when he decided that his administration was pro-Vatican. The worst, however, was yet to come. In 2009, Alamo was sentenced to 175 years in prison on a long list of charges that included sexual abuse and transporting underage girls across state lines for sexual purposes. Alamo’s ex-followers testified in court that he was guilty of numerous acts of pedophilia, including taking an eight-year-old girl to be his “wife” and having sex with her. Despite a mountain of damning evidence, the sociopathic Alamo has maintained that he is innocent of all the charges he was convicted of and insists that he was framed by the Vatican.

15. Bob Livingston

When numerous Republicans were attacking Bill Clinton in 1998, porn tycoon Larry Flynt was anxious to expose their hypocrisy and offered $1 million to anyone who could prove that a Republican member of Congress was committing adultery. Flynt obtained concrete proof that Rep. Bob Livingston of Louisiana had cheated on his wife numerous times. Livingston was among the many Republicans who had demanded Clinton’s resignation over the Lewinsky scandal, and Flynt was happy to show the public that the Louisiana congressman was very much an adulterer himself. Livingston, who probably would have replaced Gingrich as speaker of House of Representatives had it not been for that sex scandal, resigned from the House.

16. Mark Sanford

These days, the Christian Right has so much influence in the Republican Party that it is next to impossible to become the Republican governor of a southern Bible Belt state if one isn’t a social conservative. Mark Sanford had a socially conservative record during his years as governor of South Carolina (he was elected in 2002) and before that, a member of the House of Representatives. He opposed abortion and gay marriage, voted to impeach Bill Clinton, and described Clinton’s actions during the Lewinsky scandal as “reprehensible.” Sanford, however, became involved in a scandal of his own when, in 2009, it was revealed that he had been cheating on his wife with a woman from Argentina named María Belén Chapur (whom he had met in Uruguay in 2001). Sanford was censured by the South Carolina House Judiciary Committee for his misuse of state travel funds.

17. Lou Beres

Lou Beres is the former head of the Oregon Christian Coalition as well as the former chairman of the Multnomah County Republican Party. In 2005, when he was 70, Beres confessed to police that he had a history of sexually molesting adolescent girls, including his sister-in-law Elizabeth Jonas in the 1960s and two friends of his daughters in the 1970s. Because the crimes occurred so long ago, Beres wasn’t facing any criminal charges; Jonas was in her 50s when she came forward. But a civil lawsuit was filed against Beres, and Jonas was seeking $2 million in damages.

18. Mark Foley

Florida Republican Mark Foley served in the House of Representatives from 1995-2006, during which time he had a reputation for being socially conservative even though he wasn’t quite as conservative as some of his fellow Republicans would have liked. In 2003, Foley received an 84% rating from the Christian Coalition, which was lower than the 100% rating John Ensign received that year but much higher than most Democrats typically received from that organization. And his voting record was generally anti-gay, which was ironic in view of the fact that, in 2006, he got caught up in a gay sex scandal involving teenage male congressional pages. Foley, who had been sending the pages sexually explicit emails, resigned from Congress.

19. Roy Ashburn

Republican Roy Ashburn had a very anti-gay voting record when he served in the California State Senate from 2002-2010; he organized rallies opposing gay marriage, and he voted against having a day in remembrance of the slain gay rights leader Harvey Milk. In 2010, however, Ashburn was arrested for DUI after leaving a gay nightclub in Sacramento. Ashburn announced that he was gay, and gay activists pointed to his anti-gay voting record as a classic example of self-hatred.

20. Rev. Michael Hintz

When George W. Bush was running for re-election in 2004, Rev. Michael Hintz (a youth counselor at the First Assembly of God Church in Des Moines, Iowa) asserted that re-electing Bush was the Christian thing to do. The United States, Hintz said, was in the middle of a major culture war, and the country needed a man of God in the White House who would fight against abortion and porn. But it was also in 2004 that Hintz (who was 35 and married with four kids at the time) was fired by the First Assembly of God Church for becoming sexually involved with a 17-year-old girl he had been counseling.

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learjet

Hi Neil,

Is this the level that this forum is stooping to? Posting slanderous comments about people out of one side of our mouth and praising the Lord with the other?

How about we do the same thing with your personal life brother? Are you game for that?

This thread needs to be locked if this is the kind of vileness that it brings forth!

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pilgrim777

If you have not seen the debates or watch TV and so on, can I ask you what you would base you viewpoint of the Tea Party on? Its an honest question brother.

Thanks for asking Apollus. I base my viewpoint on friends I know who are involved and who do not reflect the people that Andrew is talking about.

I have heard argument from " Christians," personallhy, who are freemasons that freemasons are basicly good people who do a lot of good. Perhaps there are many good people within the freemason group, but they are identified by being attached to that group.

Yes, and I agree that most of us think that those involved in Freemasonry (as a secret org) are deceived. Right now, from what I understand the Tea Party is very loosely organized and what makes it hard to pin down is that people in it are allowed to believe a lot of things and don't have some platform they have to swear by. That time may come and then there will be a winnowing, I am sure.

The reason I bring up Bonhoeffer is because as a parallel conversation wasn't he a member of some military intelligence group (Abwehr) that may have been a bad thing to be part of?

I have no idea what is gained by deliberately attacking Christians that are part of a loosely organized group. The purpose may not be alienation, but I think the fruit might be.

I am done with this thread. We'll see where Andrew is going to go from here.

Pilgrim

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sermonindex

"It will be the religious conservatives who will hunt the remnant down and martyr them in this country." bearmaster

I may not agree with your prediction, but I agree with your logic to conclude this. I just finished hearing, and watching, in high quality stereo and video, Adolph Hitler preach, and pray, invoking the Lord's blessing, with tens of thousands inspired with roars of Amens; all about God blessing his efforts, as the leader of his great country...destined for a Millennial Reign.

Adolph eventually banned all churches and religious systems, except the Lutheran State Church and the Roman Catholic Church, with whom he had signed a covenant of non-aggression. Every Pastor, or denomination that defied this fatwah, was outlawed, killed or went underground, or to jail.

The Name NAZI: A member of the National Socialist German Workers' party of Germany, which in 1933, under Adolf Hitler, seized political control of the country, suppressing all opposition and establishing a dictatorship over all cultural, economic, [religious] and political activities of the people, and promulgated belief in the supremacy of Hitler as Führer, aggressive anti-Semitism, the natural supremacy of the German people, and the establishment of Germany by superior force as a dominant world power..wiki

So, we see Nationalism united with the state church, a very eerie parallel with much of the right; "Your a great American!"..and the exaltation of American conservatism united with God Himself, and it's political , military and economic power. There-by. a religion is molded that raises itself into righteous headship in union with God, as a sort of co-worker. Sound familiar?

I'm glad that this topic came up, as it needs to be addressed, but I say that either way we must beware of generalizations that peg a group as a whole. There are very real Christians in the Tea Party, as well as on the left, and we as a people, ought to be looking upon true reconciliation under the light of 2Chronicles 7:14

IF MY PEOPLE..

If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, [ National emergency with 24 states in severe drought..] or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;...

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways;

...then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place!"

"Judgment must first begin at the house of God!"

...as healing for the nation if we are willing to obey.


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sermonindex

Hi Pigrim,

I personally believe that to be wrapped in the flag is equally as dangerous as to be wrapped up in denominationalism.............bro Frank

PS Bonhoeffer was undercover in this group, he was helping Jewish people escape and helping Confessing Pastors escape military serivce. Not quite the same as being part of the Tea Party.

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rbanks

To whom it may concern:

It is just amazing to me how some on SI know more about people’s past and how to post slander of other people than they know the Word of God and how to display Christian character in their writings.

Maybe some should just stop posting for a while until they can learn Christ until the character of the Holy Spirit is displayed in their writings.

Blessings…from rbanks

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rjennings

As a proud Tea Party member myself I see nothing wrong in organizing with fellow patriots to promote values we all should hold dear as Christians.  I do not frequent Hannity, Limbaugh, Boortz or the hosts of other entertainers to get me pumped up and confess our meetings are more Christian than many church services I've attended.  I know that only God can save this nation but refuse to sit on my duff of do nothing while we see our moral, social, and political fabric crumble.  If I can lend a Christian voice to positively influence our leaders, I will.  I lead a weekly prayer meeting at my church to petition God to bring revival to our church, our community, and our country.  I do not consider myself a right-wing fanatic or someone looking to round anyone into the nearest FEMA camp.  I know that all Tea Party chapters aren't fashioned the same but whatever group Andrew is targeting doesn't resemble mine.  I do again respect that the political process will not save this nation regardless of which party is in power and do not claim allegiance to either but I do believe we Christians have taken a passive stance In the affairs of our country for far too long.  Please do not complain about liberties being stolen if we stand silent and allow it.  

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pilgrim777

I personally believe that to be wrapped in the flag is equally as dangerous as to be wrapped up in denominationalism.............bro Frank

I see the same parallels, too. Frank.

PS Bonhoeffer was undercover in this group, he was helping Jewish people escape and helping Confessing Pastors escape military serivce. Not quite the same as being part of the Tea Party

Frank, do you think Bonhoeffer would have railed against the Tea Party? I don't. I think he loved his Germany and was probably patriotic to a "Good" Germany not an "Evil" Germany. He very well may have supported the Tea Party or at least not been against them. If there were men in his day who stood up against Hitler and Hitler's evil government, would DB been against them? You know his writings more than I, but I will acquaint myself with him.

I am not saying any of this is of God, just asking if you think DB would be openly, railing against the Tea Party?

Thanks,
Pilgrim

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sermonindex

Hi Pilgrim,

I believe all good men would seperate themselves from any movement that had the spokesmen ( and women) that the Tea Party has. Many of its most outspoken edherants merely have a hatred of all things President Obama and all things Democrat. Its a mere extention of a lowly cultural war between two opposing ideoligies and let me tell you brother Pilgrim, the Lord does not dwell in the gutters of American politics with all of its serial hypocrisies.

The group that Bonhoeffer helped birth was the confessing church. Bonhoeffer never saw this as any kind of a schism but saw it as truly the Church in Germany. Certainly Bonhoeffer would have railed against any group so lacking in civility as the Tea Party. Listen brother Pilgrim, and I know that you know this, genuine brothers and sisters in Christ are known for their love of their enemies and their love for their brothers and sisters in Christ. They are peace-makers. They are truth lovers. They stand on the side of right no matter if that right is found to the left or the right of any subject. In such partisan times in which we live, where the hatred of either side for each other is palpable, do you know where you will find the saint? Not on the left, not on the right, but in the radical center of God's will. And because of that, saints will be hated by the left and the right. Its the haters that identify themselves Pilgrim, and the subject matter does not matter.

Love of country, desire to save the culture, desire to maintain or to hearken back to days either real or imagined is not the province of the child of God. The child of God' eye is on His Jesus, and on the Kingdom to come which enables him to avoid being entangled in the things of the world. That is why we are sojourners and ambassadors for Jesus and His Kingdom to come and the kingdom that presently dwells in our hearts. To be wrapped up in a political war or a cultural war is to be AWOL ( absent without official leave) from the real war, the war of darkness against light. The war against principalites and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places..............bro Frank

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pilgrim777

Hi Pilgrim,

I believe all good men would seperate themselves from any movement that had the spokesmen ( and women) that the Tea Party has. Many of its most outspoken edherants merely have a hatred of all things President Obama and all things Democrat. Its a mere extention of a lowly cultural war between two opposing ideoligies and let me tell you brother Pilgrim, the Lord does not dwell in the gutters of American politics with all of its serial hypocrisies.

You know Appolus that I agree with you on that. And, I guess I will have to educate myself regarding the spokesmen and women for the Tea Party. I am so disconnected with political groups that my recollections of the Tea Party are several years old and then there are a couple of my friends who obviously are not indicative of what you and Andrew are speaking about.

The group that Bonhoeffer helped birth was the confessing church. Bonhoeffer never saw this as any kind of a schism but saw it as truly the Church in Germany. Certainly Bonhoeffer would have railed against any group so lacking in civility as the Tea Party. Listen brother Pilgrim, and I know that you know this, genuine brothers and sisters in Christ are known for their love of their enemies and their love for their brothers and sisters in Christ. They are peace-makers. They are truth lovers. They stand on the side of right no matter if that right is found to the left or the right of any subject. In such partisan times in which we live, where the hatred of either side for each other is palpable, do you know where you will find the saint? Not on the left, not on the right, but in the radical center of God's will. And because of that, saints will be hated by the left and the right. Its the haters that identify themselves Pilgrim, and the subject matter does not matter.

Amen to that, brother Frank.

Love of country, desire to save the culture, desire to maintain or to hearken back to days either real or imagined is not the province of the child of God. The child of God' eye is on His Jesus, and on the Kingdom to come which enables him to avoid being entangled in the things of the world. That is why we are sojourners and ambassadors for Jesus and His Kingdom to come and the kingdom that presently dwells in our hearts. To be wrapped up in a political war or a cultural war is to be AWOL ( absent without official leave) from the real war, the war of darkness against light. The war against principalites and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places..............bro Frank

And amen to all of that too, bro. I have been telling my fellow believers for over 30 years that the political system offers the kingdom of God no help whatsoever. I have seen brethren who get into politics change. Their simple trusting, love for Jesus and all men turns into cynicism and a hardness. They lose sight of the Lord. And 30 years later, I see the the Political System and Christians more at odds with each other than ever. Paul tells Timothy that a good soldier of Jesus Christ does not entangle himself in the affairs of this world and the word "entangle" is a very descriptive word.

I was never defending the Tea Party. It was an obvious generalization that Andrew made. Maybe he should get off of the Tea Party weekly email as it seems to only inflame his passions and irritate him. I don't receive any political emails and I don't take political calls and I don't listen to Rush or Hannity or Savage or other talk shows. I used to many years ago because it seemed convenient to do in traffic on the way home but then I noticed that they would agitate and irritate me and I had to remember that the battle is spiritual and these programs are designed to inflame people's passions and convert them to their side of the political spectrum. It is all repugnant to me. I quickly grew tired of having my emotions manipulated by these talk shows. I can see how all the media has inflamed the passions of these Tea Party activists and I will take yours and Andrew's word that it has all become quite ugly.

I do look forward to reading about Dietrich. My book is on its way and I will try to become a little more current on the Tea Party. Seems I need to be updated. I have always predicted that the Christian political activists would bring the wrath of the government down upon all Christians. Why do you think Paul instructed the Believers to be in subjection to all in authority and pray for them?

Let's end this in peace. I am sorry if I have offended you or anyone else and thanks for hanging in there with me until we could get this worked out.

Blessings to you,
Pilgrim

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rjennings

" When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn."- Proverbs 29:2

“The Church must take right ground in regards to politics . . . God will bless or curse the nation according to the [political] course Christians take.” -Charles Finney

I understand why many would want to steer clear of the political scene as corrupt as it has become but to believe that we Christians can't and shouldn't influence the process is folly.  Reference Bonhoeffer, fine, but also review the Second Great Awakening and see the impact it and it's leaders such as Finney had on the abolition of slavery.  

When our president takes a public stance for same-sex marriage should we sit back and say nothing?  When we are led down a path to socialism are we to sit idle?  A pastor who lived in Cuba during the revolution spoke at our Tea Party meeting and with tears in his eyes drew parallels between what happened there to what we see materializing here.

The realities of the Lordship of Jesus and the sovereign reign of God in the entire universe are lost when we divorce ourselves from the world’s problems.

Jesus is Lord of all things spiritual, philosophical and political. There is no part of this world where His influence is “off limits.” He is Lord of all.

Many of the so-called Tea Party leaders are self-proclaimed to further their own goals and have no direct affiliation with the move itself.  

Perhaps I'm the one who should be looking for the FEMA truck to roll up to my front door from some of you rather than you worrying about what the wicked Tea Party boogeyman are gonna do.  Good grief.

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sermonindex

Brother I would commend to you a History of the Early Anabaptist by Denny Kenniston. That series is in the SI archives. These early brothers and sisters recognized their citizenship was in heaven. Their mandate was the gospel of Jesus Christ. For these views of the New Testament they were hunted down and martyred. Many of their accounts are chronicled in a work called Martyrs Mirror.

I mentioned the Anabaptist because they were persecuted for not being a part of the state church of their day. Mainly the conservative reformed state church of their day. This was an ere where church and state were one.

I mentioned the Anabaptist because in their day church and state were one. When the purity of the gospel is polluted with a political idealigy then those who follow the Lamb will be persecuted. For they will declare their allegiance to another king. And his name is Jesus.

This is why, brother, that the FEMA truck will not come from me. I followi the Lamb. My heart is set upon his kingdom. His kingdom that is not of this earth. I fully expect that I will be martyred in this life. My prayer would be that I be pleasing to him. And my enemies find salvation in Jesus.

Posted by Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

Tom, a French philosopher said, those that failed to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes. Your post has an excellent summation of what happened when the church in Germany lost its identity with Jesus.

If I remember my elementary poli sci class. German National Socialism was the extreme far right of political conservatism. Something very sobering to think about with the movement of the Christian right to the political right in America.

I am not vilifying any political party. But expressing a concern of what happens when the gospel becomes polluted with politial ideology. More and more I see the need believers are to come out of Babylon and be separate. They are to follow the Lamb where ever he goes.

Bearmaster.

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learjet

I understand why many would want to steer clear of the political scene as corrupt as it has become but to believe that we Christians can't and shouldn't influence the process is folly.

Hi rjennings,

This is an interesting point and I'm not having a go at you but can you show me anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus or the Apostles organized to change the government structure? I can't find anywhere that they even railed against it.

Paul the Apostle was martyred during the reign of Nero, surely there was much evil to talk about concerning the government, Nero was known as one of the most wicked men to walk the Earth, yet Paul never talks about the Roman government or anything like that.

What Paul the apostle did understand is that we are responsible for building the Kingdom of God, this is the Christian's priority. We don't have time to get side tracked with the kingdoms or affairs of this world.

Christ did not come to establish earthly kingdoms, He came to build the Kingdom of God.

Just my take anyway :-)

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Solomon101

I am in general agreement that we should not overly focus on political matters.

However, I think many may be missing a point of reality in regards to what the disciples/Jesus could and did do on this subject.

The situation they lived under was one of Marshall Law imposed by the Roman conquerors. They did not have an elected government and could not change the political policies by electing representatives that shared their views.

The only option available to political change was to overthrow the Roman State and Roman Military Juggernaut.

IF they had been living with the same set of options that we do then PERHAPS we might have them acting in a different fashion.

What took a bloody revolution to accomplish in the Roman world might be accomplished in ours by the mere peaceful organizing of voters.

To be spiritually and intellectually honest we have to compare apples to apples. The way much of this thread has gone is more akin to comparing apples to asteroids. They just are not the same thing and we may well have radically different approaches to them because of it.

IF we can place upstanding and moral folks into office through peaceful means that allow us to live quiet and peaceful lives (1 Tim.) and stem the tides of innocent blood then there appears to be no reason not to. As was quoted earlier -

Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin condemns any people. Prov 14:34
or how about this
When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; when the wicked perish, there are shouts of joy.
Through the blessing of the upright a city is exalted, but by the mouth of the wicked it is destroyed. Proverbs 11:9-11

It simply appears right and wise to do our best to place the most upright citizens we can in offices of the government. That was not an option on the table for Jesus or the disciples. For that reason the comparison breaks down. They simply lived in a different set of circumstances than us in America today.

The real question is, "What would Jesus do if he were 25 years old in America today?".

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sermonindex

Solomon writes..........
It simply appears right and wise to do our best to place the most upright citizens we can in offices of the government. That was not an option on the table for Jesus or the disciples. For that reason the comparison breaks down. They simply lived in a different set of circumstances than us in America today. The real question is, "What would Jesus do if he were 25 years old in America today?".


Not really sure where to begin with that statement or comment. If I take even the most base logic of this comment to its conclusion, it is saying that Jesus was outdone by a system and that if it have been a different system then there may have been a different outcome.

Brother Neil once simply said " flee Babylon.' Along with that I would say follow Jesus and the cross ( which apparently would not have happened if it were America and not Roman rule) This comment at its very best, is extremly naieve, not understanding why Jesus came or what He taught and that what He taught is universal, whether you live in Communist China, or Capitilist America, it simply makes no difference as to how a Christian should live and the unchangeable truth of the Scriptures.

"What took a bloody revolution to accomplish in the Roman world might be accomplished in ours by the mere peaceful organizing of voters."

And what bloody revolution was that Solomon? The zealots of Israel brought down the wrath of Rome who then completely destroyed Israel and scattered the Israelites all over the known world and it ceased to be a country for almost 2000 years. Is that the accomplishment you speak of? Do you not realize that what happened to Israel happened because of the judgement of God and no force or system on earth could have changed that? If America is now under judgement, do you think any force, any system any power can come against that?............bro Frank

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learjet

Quoting Solomon:

IF we can place upstanding and moral folks into office through peaceful means that allow us to live quiet and peaceful lives (1 Tim.) and stem the tides of innocent blood then there appears to be no reason not to.

I hear your point brother, no worries there and it seems logical. However, it neglects to admit the point in which we are at now and the circumstances that got us here.

Throughout my life I've seen a plethora of Christian political movements come and go (The Moral Majority, The Christian Right, etc.) and none of them has really made any lasting 'change' whatsoever.

We have put fine, 'upstanding' men and women into office countless times, yet nothing has changed. Abortion statistics are up, divorces are up, murder is up, fatherlessness is up, adultery is up (I could go on and on). So my question for you is very simple:

How has your theory worked so far?

Would you call it successful? Maybe we just haven't tried hard enough? Your assumption is that we will achieve a spiritual ends using fleshly (carnal) means (i.e.: electing the right people into office) and I would submit to you that this line of thinking is contrary to the Word.

The foundation of the New Covenant is: Jesus came to establish the Kingdom of God.

He did not come to 'nation build'. The Lord, has ONE earthly Kingdom that He has built, Israel and Israel alone, which He divorced.

Look at what Paul says here:

You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others. 3 Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer. ~2 Timothy 2:1-4

When I was in the military I didn't go off the base and start running for political office, I was concerned about the things that mattered to the US Navy, not the civilian population. Our affairs were strictly separate from theirs, we lived in another 'kingdom' within the kingdom of the US.

My point is not to belittle yours at all (I used to believe the exact same thing) but rather to point out that Christians have invested much in the 'political process' here in the US, with very, very, very little to show for it. Perhaps it would be more wise to put our energy, time and funding into something that will bear more fruit?

I hope that you can hear the spirit in which I wrote this, sometimes it's hard to communicate something in the same tone in which you are writing.

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