Dietrich Bonhoeffer's descent into a philosophical Hell.

An exhortation to Brothertom from Appolus about the heretical nature of the doctrines of Dietrich Boenhoeffer, and the faith in MORAL RELATIVISM, as the Christian message.

"Perhaps you could have started another thread, in fact you may want to start a thread and give a list of people that you consider to be heretical and in no way Christian. It may be your "Paulean stand," but others will be able to see where you are coming from and who you would consider heretics.
I know of two others at least who would be on your list as we have bumped heads on that before :)...Appolus

[ Madame Guyon, I presume, and a view of as to why? A.W. Tozer derived much his ideology from the Secular and Catholic mystics as orthodoxy.] I will address that later.

From BT:..Appolus:
In view of the clear and obvious ignorant response to the facts about Bonhoeffer's perverted faith, and your refusal to consider them, I have, as per your request, began this as a separate thread, so that some may consider this perverted idea of Moral Relativism, as being Christian, or as it is at it's roots.

It is much below the Christian realm, and even Satanic, in my view.

I have posted a very well done, World renown Documentary video, done by
MARTIN DOBLMEIER.
http://www.bonhoeffer.com/bon2.htm
Appolus said:
"If it were ever proven that Bonhoeffer helped in the conspiracy to kill Hitler, I would find myself in disagreement with him on that issue and if he were still alive he would have to rip up his major work, because being involved in the killing of Hitler would be the opposite of what he wrote.........bro Frank [Appolus].........................................

When Germany invaded Poland in 1939, igniting the Second World War, a group of German conspirators were already plotting a coup d'état; over the next six years, there were as many as fifteen assassination attempts against Hitler.

One of the co-conspirators, a double-agent who smuggled information about the plots to the Allies, was the young German pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer. In the late 1930s he wrote about the necessity of "risking" peace and "daring" a loving presence to others – words which seem to fly in the face of his later justification of assassination.

But Bonhoeffer formulated his theology and ethics in the crucible of a long and ultimately fatal struggle with the Nazi regime in Germany. His story is a fascinating window onto the dilemmas of twentieth-century ethics and spirituality.

Bonhoeffer's work came to full fruition only after his death. His efforts and his writings on behalf of the international ecumenical movement laid the groundwork for post-war inter-faith dialogue.

His insistence on the importance of an active response to Christ's Sermon on the Mount – a call to social justice – inspired many of the world's great civil rights leaders, including Martin Luther King, Jr., Vaclav Havel and Archbishop Desmond Tutu. [ none Christian].

RELIGIONLESS CHRISTIANITY
And finally, his brave and revolutionary concept of a "religionless Christianity" has helped Christian theology turn toward uncertain vistas of the future. It is an idea which exposes the vitality and relevance of faith in a world, as Bonhoeffer put it, "come of age."
http://www.bonhoeffer.com/bon2.htm
MARTIN DOBLMEIER.

BONHOEFFER BELIEVED THAT PRACTICAL ETHICAL ACTION WAS THE CORE OF WALKING WITH GOD!...AND SOCIAL ACTIVISM WAS THE PATH, AND THAT THE END, JUSTIFIED THE MEANS, EVEN UNTO MURDER.

http://www.alstaggs.com/main.html
Al Staggs provides a one-man portrayal (live and on videotape) of Bonhoeffer, underscoring the profound influence of fellow Union Theological student, Frank Fisher, an African-American friend who introduced Dietrich to the blight of racism in America.

Prisoner Bonhoeffer expresses moral outrage against the Nazi treatment of Jews and explains how that outrage led him to become involved in the German resistance movement, a commitment that would result in his being executed by hanging on April 9, 1945.

FRANK:"IF IT WERE EVER PROVEN?"

http://www.dbonhoeffer.org/
The International Dietrich Bonhoeffer Society, English section homepage. Provides information on research, recent publications, and the progress of the Dietrich Bonhoeffer Works translation project. This site would be most helpful to the serious student and/or researcher of Bonhoeffer.

AND:..If it were ever proven

THE FILM....BONHOEFFER is a 93-minute documentary film that tells the dramatic story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the young German theologian who offered one of the first clear voices of resistance to Adolf Hitler.
Bonhoeffer openly challenged his church to stand with the Jews in their time of need, and eventually joined his family in the plots to kill Hitler.
His books, Cost of Discipleship, Letters and Papers from Prison, and Ethics, were written during the struggle and are considered classics in the world of religion and ethics.

The film, shot on location in Germany and the United States, features interviews with family members, friends, students and associates who knew Bonhoeffer personally, including the last interview given by Bonhoeffer's closest friend and biographer, Eberhard Bethge, and an interview with Ruth Alice von Bismarck, the sister of Bonhoeffer's fiancée, Maria von Wedemeyer.

It also features interviews with outstanding historians and theologians including John de Gruchy and Geffrey Kelly, as well as comments from Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

Extensive research in archives both in Europe and the US yielded extraordinary archival footage, including a speech by Hitler praying for God's blessing on him and the German people and Bonhoeffer family footage that features the only known moving footage of Dietrich. The production team was also given access to never-before-seen personal and family photographs that help bring visual context to Bonhoeffer's life.http://www.bonhoeffer.com/thefilm.htm

Reading for the voice of Bonhoeffer is actor Klaus Maria Brandauer (Out of Africa, Russia House, etc). The film also features an original score by Emmy-award-winner John Keltonic.
THE CALL TO WHAT A PEACE MAKER REALLY MEANS!,,to the humanist of course.

THE DEFENSE OF THE SOCIAL GOSPEL! ..the enemy to the cross of Christ!
"Bonhoeffer is one of the great examples of moral courage in the face of conflict," explains director/writer Martin Doblmeier. "I believe part of the reason the film is getting attention now is because many of the issues Bonhoeffer faced – the role of the church in the modern world, national loyalty and personal conscience, what the call to being a "peacemaker" really means – are issues we continue to struggle with today."

The film portrays Dietrich Bonhoeffer in his search for the will of God, in his defense of the social gospel, in his struggle between pacifism and assassination plots, and in his core understanding of the interconnectedness of every single person.

http://www.bonhoeffer.com/groups.htm
I have watched this amazing documentary in it's entirety, with interviews from close friends, and family members, defining and defending DBs social gospel. It is a gospel of an Ethical lifestyle, where the End is always justified by the Means, which was the Trumpet call of DB, and in the end, is anti-Christian, and an enemy of the CROSS OF CHRIST!

In the end, in this Gospel, you are justified by the impact you have upon negative social situations such as his; the Jewish Holocaust of WW2. He was steeped in murder plots against Hitler, and justified his involvement as the will of God by means of a wicked and intense Humanistic philosophy that he proclaimed as Christian.

Liberal theology is much to faint of a condemnation for this heresy. DB taught a lie, a satanic lie, that one could be justified by his own moral and ethical choice, and should be. How many has he led to Hell, by means of his martyrdom as a Christian one? It was not.

If one can not see through this wicked deception, as so clearly opposed to the Word of God, and the clear teachings of the Bible, I truly fear for their soul. This is beyond obvious; it is another Gospel, bellowing to be noticed, as an enemy to the cross of Christ, and in no way founded from the simple but holy doctrines of grace and mercy found in the Holy Scripture.

"THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS!"

This is at the core of moral relativism. Is this what Jesus taught?

I can't say I know much about Bonhoeffer, as my access to anything he's written has been quite limited, however even on the Bonhoeffer.com website that was posted, this was cited as being positive;

"His efforts and his writings on behalf of the international ecumenical movement laid the groundwork for post-war inter-faith dialogue."

If this were true, it would definitely be something not to get mixed up with. I'd have to see the writings for myself, but it might be something to look into and consider. Anything ecumenical is not anywhere close to the Gospel call in the slightest.

I wish our Family here could come together more. We need one another. When your discernment is up - mine is down and when mine is up - yours may be down. GOD allows that for a specific reason. I won't get into all of the reasons why GOD allows that to happen - but one main reason is because He works through HIS Body and not lone-rangers.

This whole thing started over one of our new members wanting to fellowship here with us and read The Cost of Discipleship together with their newly found Family members.

I read that book about 30 yrs ago and I thought it was enriching. I'm not sure if I've read Life Together or not but I know I did read a lot about "The Body" back then.

We need to work with each other and not go against each other, at any chance that we can. The book that the few wanted to read together would have brought out much of what Bonhoeffer taught and we could just leave it at that.

I'm proud of Frank for not replying to this and I do recommend we look more to watch over each other and help one another than to go after things that we know the others don't believe in anyway. Soon we see the full-blown fulfillment of the Whole world hating us and then we'll be only too glad to find each other in that storm.
None of us are inter-faith nor ecumenical and you need to understand that those that were on that thread, about to read this book, are in no danger of going any of these ways that these links proport that Bonhoeffer 'supposedly' went.
Calvin - I can't read - but I can read others that did follow him. I told my Reformed Pastor that and he didn't mind. I'm not Reformed. Never thought I'd be in a Reformed Church - but you guys know that but if you met the Pastor, you'd understand why I can be.

I've seen the both of you be right about something when I wasn't seeing it - but on this one, I can't agree with this thread. I went to all of links and most all of them were telling us what Bonhoeffer said and did without any direct quotes or evidence.

Well, anyways, it's Way past bedtime here but I just wanted to appeal to you to let it go, please.
With what's coming - we need to really pick our battles by how dangerous they are to life and life-eternal and not go for things that we need not worry about anyone here falling into. No one's in danger of going the way that you're worried about -- especially not by reading that one book together.

I love you all here. We need each other and that's what yesterday taught me, again when I was wrong and you were right on that something that I was wrong about - just don't ask what it was. I'll tell you when we See Him.

Thank you, Family for hearing me out and considering. We have the Same Father. Heaven help us to bind together for our future. Love in our GOD.

"We need to work with each other and not go against each other, at any chance that we can. The book that the few wanted to read together would have brought out much of what Bonhoeffer taught and we could just leave it at that.

"I'm proud of Frank for not replying to this and I do recommend we look more to watch over each other and help one another than to go after things that we know the others don't believe in anyway."..JIG

First of all, this is not about anyone "going against" another, it is about the truth, and going for it. Secondly, how did you know what others "don't believe in anyway?".....you don't. You might assume that, but the young or immature might not know it, or those taken in by the veneers of religious platitudes that conceal the true nature of DBs, and others faithlessness.

Then, they become become compromised; maybe only a little, but gradually, and may slip off of the foundation of Christ and Him Crucified only, and to bare that Cross to our own daily death, and resurrection in the Spirit.

This is the simple Gospel, that the illiterate and lonely outcast may embrace, the BORN AGAIN Gospel, where Christians learn how to love one another, not just "get along." This is the gospel of the book of Acts, steeped in the Glory of God. DB never once testifies about his sin and about being born again, or promotes the "You must be born again!" foundation of the Word of God.

Tozer said something quite profound about this..[ I love Tozer, by the way; maybe not his journey so much..]..he said, [paraphrased].."It is not the Gospel that we must defend and that Satan attacks, "IT IS THE PURITY OF THE GOSPEL THAT WE MUST DEFEND AND THAT SATAN ATTACKS."

Bonhoeffer, though eloquent in his display, of even profound ideas about discipleship and duty toward a gospel, promoted a humanistic faith, void of the Spirit, that substituted situational morality; ethics, as a lifestyle, that is MOLDED from the teachings of Christ...IN HIS MIND!

He taught this in prolific style, and contrary to your idea that "no one is in danger " in reading his material, DB led an entire movement teaching these same modern heresies with many young ministers discipled by him. The reference to Appolus was simply that he stated that if proven that DB was indeed a conspirator to murder, he would have defied his own very pronounced creed. I agree.

I then proceeded to prove that DB was involved in the murder plots up to his neck, and this is the reason of his "martrydom"...and it was not martyrdom for Christ.

He taught Moral Relativism; Ethical Righteousness, The
End Justifies the Means Doctrines, as the Doctrines of Christ, and it is very subtle, but in no way Biblical, and in believing and living in this manner, he denied the Cross of Jesus, His sacrifice itself as unworthy, and established another, more human way to salvation; "A religion-less Christianity."

This spirit has consumed million and millions of souls, and it is a lie. I simply pointed this out, or tried to, and the fulcrum of this discussion happened to be with Frank, who believed otherwise.

I say debate the book! Surely you can handle my disagreement of the man's doctrine!

About something
I was right about. Could you feel frustrated and emotionally drained after pouring yourself into a situation, and then realizing that it was all about another feeding on your compassion; even relishing sorrow and pain to draw out your "love"?

Some people live their entire lives like that, and somewhere along the line, we must stop enabling; stop feeding it. Hard lesson...Thanks JIG for your humility...tom

But what I have studied some what, is the early reformers, whom evengelicals exalt beyound measure. What I have found so far has been very disturbing.

For sure. I hope one day in the near future believers finally wake up to the idea that the Bible needs to be viewed by a Spirit filled believer through the lens of the first century apostles, and not the sixteenth century reformers. There are many who claim that the reformers "rediscovered" Christianity, but the fact is, there were those who never lost it.

Reply: Well, I haven't met a man/woman yet that's omniscient/right 100% of the time [like what I just read now, ain't] and I still believe that when a wicked government arrests and kills you for saving others lives and protesting their genocide - that they're going to put out Propaganda/lies out about why they so unmercifully killed you ['silenced' you], and each branch of religion will 'interpret' your works and incorporate you into their system because of the good name and good you've done during a Holocaust - as you're no longer alive after the war's over to interpret for them / defend yourself / or grow into sounder doctrine at your young age.

So yes, Miccah - I'd vote for him. :)

All Hail! Our beloved High Pontificate of Global Religious Oversight hath returned at last.

Hoorah, hoorah, hoorah!

:)

Brothertom,

Would you vote for Bonhoeffer for President of the United States, if it were possible?..Miccah

As a man of Biblical ethical conviction, and proving his stand to do the right thing about these convictions, right or wrong , I think Dietrich Bonhoeffer would be an admirable President; certainly more trustworthy and with more good character than either of the current candidates, and probably going back to A. Lincoln, 1865. [ Who also made many compromises that may shock Lincoln lovers][edit date]

He [DB] possessed a sterling moral character too; a man who you could trust with your checking account, and your mature daughter in his care.

I also admire his stand on Social injustice, and against the tyranny of the strong crushing the weak, and he certainly proved his willingness to use force when necessary, and as all good generals and politicians must understand, that the means sometimes must justify the means, whatever the circumstances, right or wrong, for the good of the people you are leading. DB embraced this character, evidently.

Truman and Hiroshima, W. Tecumseh Sherman and the scorched Earth doctrines burning the Southern cities and plantations, Eisenhower firebombing Dresden and other German cities burning tens of thousands of innocent women and children, JFK staring down Kruschev and real Nuclear War in the Cuban missile crisis...You could go on. I think DB would stand, and do the right thing, according to his high-standards and ethical standards.

What you did not ask, however, is something you did not ask; WOULD I ELECT DB TO BE MY PASTOR, OR SPIRITUAL LEADER?...and the answer is NO! He did not live a life, or possess a faith to be led of the Spirit, but his very own ethical convictions, and believed that these convictions trumped everything else; including the Word of God.

"The end justifies the means. [ In him being caught deeply involved assisting in Hitler's assassination plot ] He believed the Sermon on the Mount was an outline for a regime to be immersed in Social Activism; not the result of one who embraced their cross to die for them to live for Jesus, and Jesus's endorsement of such a life!

Blessed Are!, [ Matt:5] in his mind, was more for the followers of Gandhi, or Martin Luther King, than the followers of the lowly Paul the apostle.and....he never once speaks of being born again, nor does he teach it. To him, everything is active ethics as a lifestyle, to free the oppressed. Very inspiring, but wrong, and apart from the true Gospel of Jesus.

Two things; "POLITICS IS THE ART OF COMPROMISE!" [ AUTHOR UNKNOWN] Jesus would not nor could not compromise the truth.

2.] I am not sure if there ever has been a born again American President; lot of Masons, Deists, and Religious "Christian"..and certainly not in this last century.

My load-stone is Abortion. I will not vote for a man with innocent blood on his hands. This leaves this election out for me this year. I suppose that DB would stand for the unborn for life. I would vote for him if this was the case in this election, and several before.

I do not expect a US President to be Christian, and for him to get to that plateau of power and succeed, it would indicate hypocrisy anyway. Christian President: hmmmm. this seems to be an oxymoron to me, a cracked conundrum, I think.

PS:...He would have had to hide the Hitler assassination plot involvment. too radical to get elected. Then he may have been a good CIA head...

Ronald Regan was a Christian . George Bush is a Christian. Why did the demons from hell rail non stop for eight long years against each of these men if it where not for thier faith in Christ.

L
O
L

"I think, therefore I am!".. Descartes
"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”...Satan

Somewhere along the line, this sweet venom was injected into the more bloated intellects of the leadership of the Holy church, as Doctrinal ideology and theology in it's purity, "WHAT A MAN THINKS IS WHO HE IS!"....Knowing.

This sub-doctrine became a standard in the church, and as compared to the man's fruit, THE SIMPLE BIBLICAL standard, as to be what and who a man really is..being bore witness by the Holy Spirit Himself! as to the Elders and to the Church, and THEN his doctrines are examined as to the maxim of...KNOWING THOSE WHO LABOR AMONG YOU!"

DOES HE LOVE, JESUS AND MEN? IS THIS MAN A CARRIER OF PEACE? IS THIS MAN A MAN OF JOY?....into "what does he believe?..[doctrines and dogma ]

Dogma THEN reached her tentacles out to entangle both orthodoxy and the Pharisee under her green breast.

" This people honors Me with their lips,

But their heart is far away from Me.

‘But in vain do they worship Me,

Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”

....BT writes: What you think is what you are! Enter the THEOLOGIAN! The ivory tower of vivid intellectualism now becomes the temple where only God's thoughts may arise, and they demand their way only, or else, and the Denomination is formed, and the thought about God becomes the "relationship" with Him.

....................................................
"Where did "Christian religion" go off track into thinking that consenting to, confessing and conforming to doctrinal data was what Christianity was all about?

"When did this "Christian religion" develop the idea that Christianity is the acceptance of a correct and orthodox belief-system?"...Pilgrim777.........................

When?..[ Let us reason.org]..."Emperor Constantine's Nicene council is usually pointed to as the source for the doctrine of the Trinity, yet the Trinity was present in the church long before Constantine. Most Jehovah Witnesses and other anti- trinitarians have never had a true presentation of Church history. If they knew history they may not point to Constantine.

They have created this misrepresentation to do battle against a lie. They portray Church history as proof that the doctrine of the Trinity is of a pagan source from the Emperor Constantine. The truth will astound you.

The term Trinitas was popularized by Tertullian almost 100 years before the Nicene council in his debate against Praxeas. However, he was not the first to use the term, a man Theophilus Bishop of Antioch in 160 was the first to use the term (that we have in writing), many years before in his epistle to Autolycus.

We can assume it was used prior to Theophilus and was held as a common church belief with the many quotes that are left to us in history by the early church pastors. Athenagoras representing the whole Churches belief wrote, that, "they hold the Father to be God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit, and declare their union and their distinction in order.

The term was used to simply describe the three that simultaneously exist as the one God. A man named Praxeas promoted what is called Monarchianism, which held a strict form of monotheistic progression. That the Father became the Son, and the Son became the Spirit.

This is what is called modalism in it's simplest form, What is better termed Oneness today. Despite the accusation's of the Church inventing and promoting the Trinity. We find the Church in Rome and elsewhere falling prey to numerous heresies that they tried to keep out.

As we see from history the doctrine of the Trinity did not depend on any council as it was used by Tertullian and others long before a council was called on doctrinal teaching. The Catholic Church gets blamed for inventing the Trinity yet when we look through it's history it tells a different story.

History shows that it was Trinitarians that first resisted a single church Government with a Pope as its head, they did not invent it. Zephyrinus (210 AD.) and Callistus (220 AD.) were the first bishops to claim Mt.16:18 to themselves, they were both modalistic in their view of God.

Tertullian called him an usurper saying, "as if he was the Bishop of Bishop's." So it was Oneness believers who first wanted to be head of the whole Church, not Constantine. Adolf Harnack in his book the History of Dogma actually states that "Modalism…was for almost a generation the official theory in Rome."

Which certainly proposes a problem for those who claim a Roman origin of the Trinity. This occurred before Constantine and Arius' heresy won after Constantine which Rome promoted for yet another 50 years."
.......more..http://www.letusreason.org/Trin13.htm
.....
...BT:...Probably at the garden..but in new Testament history, we see in 3John:

I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say.

For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words;..[ His thinking must be obeyed, you see...]

...and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.".His thinking must be obeyed by all...his doctrine.....Enter the first Pope. [ AD 75?]

Rather heady, I suppose, but it is relevant in the study of Bonhoeffer, and men like him. The simplicity of walking with Christ and learning to love the poor, the whore, and the leper, is overshadowed by defining the sleek intellectual intricacies of how or why I think I may act, and then by thinking the truth about them, these ethics become my guide, and I must follow them.

If you could backtrack these labyrinths of intellectual trappings, perhaps you could be set free, but it is not that easy. Consider the Pharisee, who knew that Jesus was the Son of David as prophesied, and chose to murder Lazarus too, in that Lazarus proved their wicked error bound into their evil traditions , their religious THINKING, AS THE TRUTH. They would rather murder the truth, than submit to the idea that their THINKING may be in error...............BT

"That the act of thinking guarantees the existence of the self is a fact that many philosophers take for granted. As Descartes famously put it “I think, therefore I am”, an assertion that has come to be known as the cogito.

Certainly the cogito doesn’t seem like something that can be doubted, but if we are really to rely on it we should be certain that its truth can be divorced from Descartes’ philosophy."

http://onphilosophy.wordpress.com/2006/10/12/i-think-therefore-i-am/

These ideas are the breath of the dragon in purity itself, and many have cast off their gas masks in lieu of a more noble manliness; MY ethics and my moral activism! DB was never born again, as I see it, nor did he testify , or live under this simple faith of mercy and love.

He chose to be a ethical activist to change the hearts of men, and cure the evils of this or that tyranny...BT

"Ronald Reagan was a Christian . George Bush is a Christian. Why did the demons from hell rail non stop for eight long years against each of these men if it where not for their faith in Christ."

This is a little off topic, and I really do not know how to take it, but along with EOS, I am alight with laughter...meaning...You are the funniest punster I've met in a while, or the funniest and most dense punster I have met in a while..[ no offense] It is just funny. I will leave it at that.

I have thoughts of Sarah Palin addressing the upcoming Republican Convention [ if invited ]; She opens her great speech, wide eyed with her famous earthy smirk: " My campaign manager, jonalon and me, wellll, [ still smirking ] we got to the same idea about this here election, and the economy and terrorism. We need another George Bush, or Ron Reagan!..[ applause thunders the arena]

We're in a big spiritual war! Can't you see! We need spiritual men..like me, I am a woman of faith!
"Why did the demons from hell rail non stop for eight long years against each of these men if it where not for their faith in Christ?"..[ more applause ].

The real america, down home, apple pie, Mom and her Christian Presidents.

Hmmmm....And they were cursed alot....Must mean their Apostolic or sumfin?...ok...I see now.
...me too....LOL
They took the heat for their faith.

"As Pope of Michigan and Apostolic Overseer of the World Council of Cults, I alone have authority to consign people to hell for disagreeing with my dogma. Your decree that Bonhoeffer is frying in hell because his doctrine differed from yours is an affront to my Papal Authority!"
PrimaDogma.

All hail! PD. I hope Bonhoeffer is saved, but my difference with him had nothing to do with his differences with me, but with the Word of God.

He taught and believed that walking with Christ is equivocated with solving social injustice; IE, social activism; which he proved with his own execution in the Hitler assassination plot.

The gospel of Christ teaches that to walk with Christ, we must be born again the second time, and be conformed to His image as we follow the Spirit, deny ourselves, and learn how to love; in simplicity, to be conformed to His image.

These two gospels are diametrically opposed to one another, on different ends of the universe. Bonhoeffer assumes that his humanistic approach must be endorsed by a
God who seems to be there, but believes that he looks upon men in a context of Ethical choices, and is remote, like he has wound up the Universe and lets man intervene as he chooses.

The bible speaks of a living God, who is constantly involving Himself in the affairs of men, as it is His pleasure.

Bonhoeffer by promoting this ethical and moral activism as the Gospel of the Cross, which it certainly is not, then becomes the liar, and the deceiver. The deceived, deceive, as they reproduce themselves.

I have not found one instance where DB speaks of his testimony of being born again, or he ever leading a soul to Christ, or loving the sinner as Christ. I have never seen him speak of the blood driven gospel that exposes are wretched inner man [ Roman's 7], while begging for His mercies and grace, as true believers must and always do.

So, rather than address these issues, it seems more affective to mock them, and assassinate the character of the one who offends , and the doctrines and the people you may idolize.

I do not remember any, on two threads, anyone who addressed the core as to why Dietrich Bonhoeffer is NOT a Christian, and why he chose to teach and preach another gospel, a lying gospel that defies the Cross of Jesus as the only way to find God's favor.

To me, to mock and assassinate without offering a stable idea as to why this is NOT heresy, according to the facts and the word, belies ignorance below, and the mocking simply morphs it into mocking pride.

I simply wanted to make a point, in bringing this issue up again; that it matters what we believe and teach, more than what we may CONFESS that we believe and teach, as it at the core of Beonhoeffer, a very famous martyr figure.

He of course, was not a Christian martyr, but a leader in his own right, teaching a perverted modern and religious form of social activism. He believed that a man's ethical response to social injustice determined his worth before God.

In this, he denied the Cross of Christ as the one and only way to the Father God, and led many astray. He was possibly the first powerful modern social-activist claiming the Christian title, [ Ghandi was the prince of all time here, but claimed that all paths led to God].

I also uncovered here how people cling to their idols in their famous icons; Very similar to the presentation of these hero's is the Papal web of the veneration of the Saints; IE: It is idolatry ; Hero worship. Saint Patrick chased the snakes away and saint Mary's really the mother of God himself!

Bonhoeffer confessed some very exalted and ideal confessions about discipleship [ along with some flat out weird humanistic ones also. ] but in the end, he was that; A HUMANIST, who believed in the power of MAN to accomplish gaining a path to God Himself, Rather than THE ONLY WAY PROVIDED:.Jesus and His merciful Blood; ALONE!

I wrote before:

"Bonhoeffer by promoting this ethical and moral activism as the Gospel of the Cross, which it certainly is not, then becomes the liar, and the deceiver. The deceived, deceive, as they reproduce themselves.

I have not found one instance where DB speaks of his testimony of being born again, or he ever leading a soul to Christ, or loving the sinner as Christ. I have never seen him speak of the blood driven gospel that exposes are wretched inner man [ Roman's 7], while begging for His mercies and grace, as true believers must and always do." Brothertom.

"Little children; Keep yourself from Idols."

Sister I think one answer to your question is the scriptures are too life changing. Too hot too handle. The devil knows this. Far easier to distract one to read what others say about the word. Then get into the word itself. For if one gets into the word it will change one's life.

I find that the one book the persecuted church cries out for is the Bibke. Interestingly enough it is not D. Bonhoffef or any other author. Their cry us for the Bible, the Word of truth.

I am sure these men such as Bonhoffef would say fill your mind with the Word of God. Not my word. If we would spend as much time listening to or reading the word as we do trashing Bonhoffef. We would be far beeter along in our walk with Christ.

Bearmaster.

If God be pleased that I arrive in heaven. I would not be surprised to see D. Bonhoffef and Mother Theresa and Barrack Obama fellowshipping with Jesus.

Bearmaster.

"If God be pleased that I arrive in heaven. I would not be surprised to see D. Bonhoffef and Mother Theresa and Barrack Obama fellowshipping with Jesus."
Bearmaster....

This is because you are of a Universal mindset; that all roads lead to God anyhow. You believe that good people, with good intentions and with good ideas are eventually saved, because God just isn't like that; He would never damn good people! Eh?

ECUMENICAL.
ec·u·men·i·cal....[ All faith and all religion eventually lead to God.]

1. Of worldwide scope or applicability; universal.

...Of or relating to the worldwide Christian church.

...Concerned with establishing or promoting unity among churches or religions.

THERE IS ONE, AND ONLY ONE WAY TO GOD.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

THE BIBLE SAYS YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

.........................................................

It is interesting to me that you quoted Mother Teresa, [ Roman Catholic ] Bonhoffer,[ Humanist/Modernist] and Barak Hussein Obama, [ Muslim Marxist] all in one breath, for all of them believe THAT there are many roads to the Father....and taught it and preached it...and none of them preached the Cross and the Blood as the only WAY! They were/are Humanists! Ecumenical Universalists, teaching many paths to Him.

In the thread below, you commented about people wasting time reading other books, rather than knowing the Bible. I would say that BELIEVING the bible, is much better than knowing about it, and from your comments, I perceive it is something that you do not.

My counsel to you is that you repent in your thinking, and embrace the Bible in an exclusive way, that it is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth....for the nature of heresy is MIXTURE....LEAVEN...which in this case, as Bonhoffer, as Mother Theresa, teaches that doing good things, ethical things, will save you.

This is the wide gate, and it is doctrinal; entrenched in the mind and the thought...and what the Apostles fought to maintain in PURITY! [ "CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED!].

All other roads will kill you, and as Trekker put it so well, will lead you to Hell and the Lake of fire, just like the above liberals you mentioned above.

Your faith will attach itself to thought, just like the serpents voice in the Garden to Eve: "HAS GOD SAID?"

We must close our minds to all else; everything other than what God has said; and it is exclusive entirely to the Bible we hold in our hands, AND believe in our hearts.

Sincerely and without malice...BT

Maybe Bearmaster could share more about Eritrea with BrotherTom before he sets off.

And maybe it would jar BT's memory, that I was on JTBTV while he was in Israel until he got back and remember that adventure from his posts.

If he thinks Israel was bad - Eritrea ought to be the adventure of ALL adventures.

-----------------------------------

The thief on the cross got saved, and none of us know who will be in Heaven, because we don't know what they may have looked to or may look to Jesus and ask[ed] of Him, in their last dying breath.

Good day!

Tom, I sincerely hope that you are not going to Eritrea with the attitude I see refected on this thread. If so, I fear for the persecuted there.

Brother let me ask you.. Can you weep for the Eritreans? Does your heart break for people like Senait Okbazgi Habta? Can you see a shipping container and visualize 300 believers crammed into it? And weep? Can you imagine the horrendous conditions in that container and weep? Can you identify with the temptations they face to deny Christ to gain tbeir freedom? Yet the Erittreans stand firm until death. Can you weep? Can you weep for the lost of Eritrea? Can you weep for those who persecute Christians in Eritrea? Can you pray for the salvation of Isaias Aftwerki, dictator of Eritrea? Can you weep for his soul?

Tom if you cannot say yes to any of the above questions. Then brother I say gently you should not go to that country. When you pray and fast and tears run down your face for Eritrea. When your heart is crushed with the weight of the suffering church. When your pillow is wet with tears breaking for Eritrea night after after night. When you have in your heart an ache to suffer for Eritrea. Then brother I would say you are ready to go. But til then. Til God brings you to that point of humility and brokenness. Please do not go to Eritrea. For their sake and yours.

Bearmaster.

Maybe Bearmaster could share more about Eritrea with BrotherTom before he sets off.

And maybe it would jar BT's memory, that I was on JTBTV while he was in Israel until he got back and remember that adventure from his posts.

If he thinks Israel was bad - Eritrea ought to be the adventure of ALL adventures....Jesus is God.

Israel was not purely an adventure; I have been there before, and I went there again by revelation; a direct word from God, and yes, it was terrible. I was confronted there by the synagogue of Satan in Jerusalem, and, if you can receive it, by the will of God to expose them, and to see them scattered and destroyed.

It was one of the most painful and miserable times in my life. I was literally taken in the Spirit to one of their covens with a very powerful demon there, who blinded me for a time.I saw them, knew them, and actually visibly confronted their demon guardian. I stood my ground...and overcame. [ covered by the blood of Jesus..].

I became deathly sick, and thought I was going to die..and on my return, was almost bedridden for two months. It was awful, but I am assured I was in the will of God.

I did not go for adventure, and I never have, in many Gospel Mission trips over many years. I do not take a camera, and do not tour the sites, so to speak; I am focused on Jesus and the Gospel.

My Call to Eritrea was very direct and clear; to GO as an ambassador of Christ, and to be honest, I do not want to go. I was given the name of the country, and the date I was to go in a series of dreams and visions. I have had a burden for Africa for a while, but never for a specific country, until this.

There are 3000 Christians imprisoned there...most for 10 years or more. The government is hostile to the Holy Spirit. Christians are tortured there and some die in true martyr fashion, refusing to recant their faith.

Arrests are made on anyone anywhere without cause or explanation. The Eritrean government defies the US state department, and if arrested, you are without help from anyone,including the US embassy. Foreigners can be held this way.

Al Qaeda operates openly in the North of the country. There are yet tens of thousands of land mines there; there are tourists who are killed, and roaming gangs that rob, as law and order is broken down. there are shortages of food and water in the capitol city, and little or no cell phone or Internet service.

There is no airport, except military, and the only way that I know in is by sea, at the peril of the many pirates that sail for hostages and booty there; exactly where I must sail in.

I am soberly fearful, but am aiming at peace, and daily begging for more and confirmation, and I do not want to go....but I must...or defy my God. I have assurance from the Lord that I will not die there, and will fulfill my ministry...and then be taken....in a few years. So, I will go.

So, JIG, thanks for your concern. I did post some about my visit to Israel last winter. I am in a very, very sober state of mind about this trip. It is by far the most terrifying call I have ever received from God.

I would use this reply also as a cry for prayer for me, to all who may read...I am desparate...but...in a failed life I put on this attitude almost hope against hope:

"Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God."

I will never be a Paul, and most likely be just a worker for Christ in a little way; mostly insignificant...but I must live it...and cannot care what men may or may not; approval or endorsement. I know that the honor of man and the fear of man or just the other side of the same coin.

My "adventure" days are long gone; those were for my 20s...I am in my 60s now, and over 40 years Holy Spirit filled, and travel for me is no fun...it is hard. I have accomplished little in my ministry, but maybe some. I have preached the Gospel in power, and have seen some come to Jesus, and receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of my hands.

These I speak of had never heard the Name of Jesus before they had heard my preaching. I have cast out real blaspheming demons out of people, with multiple voices cursing, and seen Jesus deliver them through my word....and then seen them filled with the sweetness of Christ, worshipping in holy purity and speaking with other tongues.

I have seen hospital confirmed healings and a few creative miracles, restorative ones, as the Lord chose to use me.

Mostly, though, I am put on the shelf, and humiliated by God, as He proves to me, over and over, that I really am a no-body...just a vessel...of wood and clay and mud...that He wants EMPTY AND CLEAN...and I resist Him tooth and nail, as I am led to my death, by His scourging.

So, I hope you will pray for me JIG, I need mercy..as I fail Him ...but yet, am called by him.

Sincerely : Brothertom

Yes, I read all about your two trips. One in 1999 and the other where a "black hand came down" ... and "the prince of Persia", etc..

Sorry Tom - but not the GREAT Prophets of the Old Testament and neither The Apostles have even remotely come near such things -- neither were any Afflicted in their bodies with a tumor under the rib or any other such "physical" manifestations ... which makes you Biblically Unique to even the Great Prophets and Apostles that Served The GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I have been praying for you, all along.

Actually these were but a few of many manifestations in the spiritual warfare realm;, and in the revelatory realm, and some much more fantastic, evidently to you, than these. I did not post them then, or now, to impress people, but to explain to you why I went to Israel, and why thought it "bad", in your words. This is how I suffered, and suffer I did. I went by revelation for the cause of the gospel, as I am to Eritrea.

You brought up Israel and my report, not I, and I responded as to the why? as I testified.[ on another forum website] I care not whether you believe my testimony or not...it doesn't matter. As I said; the honor of man and the fear of man or the same; they are useless and vain either way...

So, make the idea another personal assassination attack, as usual; but just to respond to others who may read...there it is. On a personal note, regarding your personal prayer for me, I would that you keep them, and do not wish that you pray for me, as I have witnessed much bitterness and controversy toward persons, including myself, over time....as today.

Sincerely, and without malice........Tom

Brother Tom, I was here when you first signed on to SI. Show me where I have ever attacked you.

You don't have any idea 'why' I've been praying for you since that first day of your posting here.

Other than our discussion over DB, you cannot show me anywhere that I've attacked you - so your accusations are just revenge.

I've been praying for you as the LORD lays you on my heart and not because I've written your name down somewhere or think of it myself.
And when this leading to prayer comes, it is in love and concern over your well-being and protection.

If GOD permits, I'll cease praying, but I can't stop the Holy Spirit from grieving in my heart, when He does.

Take care - please!

The amazing report is that 'Chinese' Christians have been going into Israel to witness for Christ. This has been going on for a time now and I suppose, because they're accustumed to persecution and threats, they can enter Israel and do a work that no one ever imagined that the Chinese would ever do.

Since my main concern has been for Missionaries, as Bearmaster's has been for the persecuted, we stay in touch with these ministries and know those that are serving around the world.

No child of GOD should ever fear, if GOD has called them to be a Missionary to any country around the world. Greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the world.
And that's the bottomline for young Saints with that calling. They are willing to lay down their physical life in being martyrs, as Jim Elliot did - but will not except any unbiblical-invisible attacks on themselves and none should ever be dissuaded from obeying GOD by non-biblical stories. That's the point in all of this.

IF the GOD of The Bible is mis-represented in any way by giving our enemy more power than he actually has or giving flesh and blood more power than GOD permits - we should speak out against that.

If defending the Biblical Nature of GOD is seen as an attack - so be it!

"It was one of the most painful and miserable times in my life. I was literally taken in the Spirit to one of their covens with a very powerful demon there, who blinded me for a time.I saw them, knew them, and actually visibly confronted their demon guardian. I stood my ground...and overcame. [ covered by the blood of Jesus..]."

Brothers and sisters, consider these words and ask the Lord to give you wisdom. And then consider the attack on a real martyr like DB and people like Tozer and Guyon, just consider that is all I am going to say.........bro Frank

Well Appolus, Can we ever just get over it? Please: again, This thread is not About Guyon; It is about Bonhoeffer either being a true Christian, and a true Christian martyr, or not. You suggested[ halfheartedly and with jest I suppose, that I start a separate thread and address my thoughts about the man, rather than the "Book Club" Bonhoeffer thread.

So I did, and addressed your main concern.

Appolus said:
"If it were ever proven that Bonhoeffer helped in the conspiracy to kill Hitler, I would find myself in disagreement with him on that issue and if he were still alive he would have to rip up his major work, because being involved in the killing of Hitler would be the opposite of what he wrote.........bro Frank ...

Again, I responded that this is precisely what DB did! Without contest, and loads of historical evidence; He was up to his neck in at least two plots to murder Hitler, and got caught. So, would you admit now that if alive, he would have to rip up his major work? No! You revert back to another dubious Christian martyr type in a thread long ago...I examined; Madame Guyon.

You will not address the issues or the facts, but revert back pointing the finger because I stepped on your toes. Bonhoeffer was also never born again, nor preached Christ and him crucified; but social activism and moral relativism as a Gospel, and deceived many. He wrote about high-minded idealism, and a confessional Christianity, but lived a philosophical dichotomy.

Repairing social injustice by non-violent activism was his creed, but violent action, coupled with an idealism that THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS was his life; a hypocritical one in the end. He was not martyred for Christ in any way what so ever, but, as a willing accomplice, he tried to assassinate a head of state...........................................Wrote this down under:

An exhortation to Brothertom from Appolus about the heretical nature of the doctrines of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and the faith in MORAL RELATIVISM, as the Christian message.

"Perhaps you could have started another thread, in fact you may want to start a thread and give a list of people that you consider to be heretical and in no way Christian. It may be your "Paulean stand," but others will be able to see where you are coming from and who you would consider heretics.
I know of two others at least who would be on your list as we have bumped heads on that before :)...Appolus

My reply, down under:
[ Madame Guyon, I presume, and a view of as to why? A.W. Tozer derived much his ideology from the Secular and Catholic mystics as orthodoxy.] I will address that later.

From BT:..Appolus:
In view of the clear and obvious ignorant response to the facts about Bonhoeffer's perverted faith, and your refusal to consider them, I have, as per your request, began this as a separate thread, so that some may consider this perverted idea of Moral Relativism, as being Christian, or as it is at it's roots."........................

....[and I did not mean ignorant in the mean sense, but classical, arguable one. We are all ignorant of many things..].......................

Tozer: Love him and read a dozen or so of his books...I simply found it odd that he consulted with non-Christian secular and religious mystics, who endorsed transcendental meditation as the means to find God. He is an enigma,yes, but I never attacked him, unless you think that examining a mans methods and doctrines are wrong....

But again, we digress don't we...as the nature of your response has been, finger pointing and innuendo rather than addressing the issue at hand. So, what do you think? Should DB, if alive, tear up his major work for his hypocrisy? as you suggested? Was he really a gospel minister? or was he an unsaved theologian who embraced ethical modernism as a gospel life?

I think so. As far as my religious experiences, they are mine, and my testimony. You must feel free to reject them anyway, it does not affect this discussion. Here is my blog site, which is prophetic in Nature...parouse as you wish.

http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/?view=classic

BT

HI Tom, surely your not suggesting that we should not look closely at the words of a man and judge them Scripturaly? You raised your experiences. You are the one, on this thread about DB that said that you were taken to some kind of demonic coven, blinded and overcame the demonic guardian. I am simply suggesting that people look at those claims in light of Scripture. Perhaps some could find scriptural examples of the experiences you described? Or, when you were confronted by Satan himself Tom, perhaps there are Biblical examples of other saints who themselves were confronted by Satan? (Excluding Jesus and Adam and Eve)

The reason I mentioned the three names was not to go over old ground, but just to show the pattern. I actually asked you to start a thread of people or writers from the past that you do consider to be genuinly Christian? But Tom, you are free to start any thread that you want as I am free to question your experiences in light of Scripture. I find not a single person from the Bible who was confronted by Satan or held captive and blinded by Demons. Nor I have heard of any saint in the last 2000 years make such a claim. What say you Tom, since you raised the issue? ............bro Frank

Brother Frank, I raised the issue of Israel because, despite what Tom thinks, I have been truly vexed by the thought of him going to Eritrea, knowing the dangers there.
I assumed that Tom had put aside his memory of how sick he got in Israel because of the spirits that he 'saw' and was struck blind and made sick by, as he had posted.
He recovered himself once he was home after some months but hearing that he was heading out again, but this time to a place that we all know is 'literally' awfully dangerous and he having had 2 heart attacks, etc and his age --- I just don't have a peace about it at this time. That was my only motive for bringing up his trip to Israel and the manifestations that brought him physically down while there, that I had made note of out of concern only.
Regardless of what I think about what he went through in Israel - the concern for his well-being has been what's been on my heart since his announcement of going to Eritrea.
I just wish he wouldn't, seeing the toll taken on him in Israel alone and it's grieved my soul for him to tears.

HI Sister,

Well if these " visions," were due to sickness that is complelty different. There is no doubt that Christians are in a battle and that the enemy is indeed like a roaring lion. I know this because the Scriptures tells us of this and warns us. We do not indeed battle against flesh and blood but against principalites and powers and spiritual wicedness in high places. I am pretty sure that Tom will disagree with you however and that, if I know Tom, he will stand behind what he has written. And because it is written and it is a public forum, just like books that are written, then the words can be studied and tested in the light of Scripture, and hopefully in a mature and respectful way. Anyway, I will let Tom speak for himself and stand down from this thread. I was hoping for a thread of encouragment and one that Tom would share who he considered to be a Christian and how he was blessed by them. Ultimately we have to be known for who we are for, not who we are against. Its the name of Jesus that should always be lifted up, we should give the devil as little air time as possible. Standing down and may the light of Christ shine upon us as we move into very troubled times............bro Frank

""may the light of Christ shine upon us as we move into very troubled times............bro Frank""

Exactly, dear Brother ... and 'that' is my concern with what I've brought up here.

You and I and others were on jtbtv at that time, so there's nothing 'secret' about what we talk about. We were all on at the same time and the posts are still there - so it's out there between The Body of Christ - that should care about one another.

I'm going to post the excerpts that concerned me about this trip to Eritrea.... as we know that Africa and places like Haiti are a whole nother ballgame. As I said, I support missionaries world wide, so I know what they're up against - but have never heard from any of them, anything of this nature.

Excerpt from one of BT's posts:

I went into a real world of spiritual warfare...and encountered directly...very high ranking spiritual wicked, in the heavenly cosmos realm. This is where Satan rules, Jezebel, the Queen of Heaven, Allah , the god of war...and various demons and imps. I have directly encountered all of these...and seen them in their real spiritual bodies.

While in Jerusalem in 1999, a massive black hand manifested in this realm, bigger than the hood of a car...with fingers 5 inches thick...and grabbed me. This was Allah, the prince of Persia, who rules there...[ under Jesus of course..]....I cried out, and was freed...yet somehow battled on.

In my travels, or all of my warfare, I have never really seen the Synagogue of Satan...[ that call themselves Jews..]..until now. This is why I was called to go this time. I met them personally...and underwent an attack...where a small demon appeared...that actually was a very big demon, or demons. It reminded me , as I said, of YODA of star wars...and I rebuked it in His name...and he just stared at me, until I went blind...for a couple of minutes.

I then became sicker, as I am today.
If you want, pray for my recovery too...I have a "lump" under my rib-cage.

Anyone that cares an ounce, would be concerned about his next trip.

And, what you ended your post with, Brother Frank, regarding the "troubled times" that we're probably going to enter in - when demon possession will be wide-spread - my concern is for those that are not grounded in Scriptural Demonology. They won't stand a chance facing what's to come.

With His Love and praying with you, for "the 'Light' of Christ to shine upon us" as we face the days ahead.

Again, the issue is not about or for or against my spiritual experiences or revelation, as it seems that this tide is again attempting to roll into once again.

I, in respect for the rules of this forum, generally and consciously did not direct my experience or prophetic declaration here as to the wishes of the Moderators, and especially Greg Gordon, except, a bit by way of the closed "Private Messaging" option long ago, and a few references to them, while some of which were directed to them from external sources: IE: people saw my prophecies and questioned them in general; I responded.

As far as prophecy being tested by scripture: Absolutely! As far as personal Revelation? To a degree. How can you verify that I have or have not been taken away in the Spirit to be confronted, or confront, another Spiritual power? You cannot; Nor, would I necessarily. The bible does say that we wrestle against powers and princes; "does it not?"

If I knew the person, possibly, but, is it possible, would be my first response. How could you verify that I have not been taken before the Throne of God? It is scriptural, is it not? It is the same idea....[ I have by the way..]

So, I have not rested, never once, on revelation in itself being the loadstone of whether or not I am approved or disapproved by the forum, or anyone else. I have rested on the Word of God in itself, and you may or may not bare witness to my posts, or ideas; many hundreds of them.

The posts that are now flung at me, or mostly out of context posts from another PROPHETIC SITE, [ now defunct] that received and dispensed revelatory and prophetic posts. [ Out of context in the sense that Can you verify them in context?...and I say that they are real?..in context with the accompanying words about the down to earth world that is not radically prophetic? ]

These are among many that I posted there, and as I said, are but a few of the many that I have had over 40+ years....but I have never forced them on others, or manipulated others to believe them, or even accept them.

Again, for the umpteenth time, it is the boring mantra of character assassination and innuendo, by Frank and others, in feigned concern, as why believe or contend with a wacko nut who is so deceived that he believes he fights a real devil and has seen him...etc, and etc. and also has seen Jesus? Well...I have, but never made it an issue.

So this appears again and again, and again the issues, as always, are skirted and averted. In this case, Bonhoffer; a non-Christian, never born again social activist; amply proven.

The answer: You cannot trust a whacko. hmmmm. Anyone smell the ignorant?...or undiscerning? What do I know?..I am at the other end of the stick.

Read my posts over four and one-half years to discern whether I am a nut, or not, but consider that I have not rested on that , nor do I care if others receive the prophetic or not; I have rested on my interpretation of the truth, according to scripture as I known it, not my prophetic revelation.

So, if one cannot present a clear defense, as is seen here; SMEAR...SMEAR...SMEAR...and divert, and assassinate character by accusation. That will prove any point.
.......................................

"I will let Tom speak for himself and stand down from this thread. I was hoping for a thread of encouragment and one that Tom would share who he considered to be a Christian and how he was blessed by them. Ultimately we have to be known for who we are for, not who we are against." Appolus

So that means that heretics are fine, as long as you are blessed by them, or you idolize them. I see. So, those like Bonhoffer who stand for a false gospel of ethical action as Religious justification are acceptable, and to confront their lies and false Gospel is not encouraging; negative?

Read Acts 20:30: "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

Bonhoeffer spoke perverse things, about a Gospel of Ethics and social activism, and led many astray with a bloodless, modernistic approach, that was exposed to be hypicritical in itself, and a lie. In the end, he even betrayed his professed philosophy, and turned to murder as the answer.

This is the issue, and again and again, I await an authentic response to these issues, but all I receive is the smear and the character punch. This is probably how it will end...and again, my E-mail is below for any sincere questions, as is my little blog, which is loaded with prophecies and the like...and there are no "donate" buttons there. I do not want to control you, or your money.

ohhelplordjesus@yahoo.com

http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/?view=classic

Please pray for extra grace, and for Eritrea...thanks..tom

i cannot keep silent.

this lie, Tom, that spewed forth from your keyboard;

I then proceeded to prove that DB was involved in the murder plots up to his neck, and this is the reason of his "martrydom"...and it was not martyrdom for Christ.

is absolutely false. the few things i know, i know them well, and one of them is germany's post world war 1 history.

Dietrich was put into a concentration camp in 1943. the assassination attempt was made on 20 July 1944. in the DAYS following ANYONE thought to have anything remotely to do with this assassination were swiftly executed, the few people brought to show trials, were harangued by a nazi judge, then swiftly executed as well.

If Dietrich had ANYTHING to do with this plot, they would have killed him at once. Himmler had him murdered, in April 1945, in the closing days of the war.

himmler, of course being a child of the devil, was just cleaning up "old garbage". The reality of Dietrich 'tenure' in concentration camps was a model of Grace and Love in Jesus, to wit, by his example, even SS guards, were brought to a saving Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"up to his neck"?....i have no idea, what 'spirit' impells you to post as such, but surely this thread is just a stench.

Even germanys most vaunted and brilliant general, Erich Von Manstein, was approached at the highest level about this plot. The only reason the germans were able to hold off the russians so long on the eastern front was because of Manstein's tactical brilliance. Now Manstein never was a nazi, never joined the nazi party, went head to toe with hitler, on matters of the war, especially when he was used to being the wehrmachts "fireman" in the 1942-1943 period, conducting an elastic mobile defense.

he regarded hitler as just an ignorant "corporal", but Manstein was raised from a child as part of the thousand year old Prussian military elite, meaning these men, were taught to serve the german emperor. At many times, when his troops were being surrounded, he lobbied hitler again and again for the chance to breakout...denied.

before he was 'approached' for the 20 July attempt, many many generals were begging him to take his Army Corps, 250,000 troops, turn around to the west, march on Berlin, and end hitler, and when he was finally approached for the 20 July plot, he said to those who begged him to come in, "Prussian field marshals do not mutiny", and that was an end of it. hitler sacked him in the late part of 1943, simply because Manstein was the only one who argued tactics and warfighting with hitler, and that Manstein was so regarded by the wehrmacht, that all it would take was a word from Manstein, and an army of german troops would descend on Berlin, and hitler would be ended.

Now Manstein had direct knowledge that an assassination attempt was coming, but he did not inform on them, instead he took his family and retired to the western Germany, and sat out the rest of the war, was interned by Allied forces.

the reason i even brought that up, is that Dietrich had NO HAND in the plotting of any assassination of hitler, or i doubt any REAL tactical knowledge of the 20 July plot....because if he did the nazis would have murdered him swiftly after the 20 July attempt, and anybody that says otherwise is either ignorant of history, or just an outright liar.

this is will NOT BE the last post i make on this thread, but i will not stand idly by while such demonic and hellish accusations are made against a choice vessel that Jesus saw fit to use.

i have no idea, whether you've read "Life Together", which i would opine is one of the most annointed non canonical books written ('Life of Brainerd' in the same class, you read that as well?), and "Life Together" speaks entirely of living LIFE IN CHRIST. Its Jesus, Jesus, Jesus preached in that wonderful slim tome. His passages on the difference's between "human" love, and Divine Love THRU Jesus, are anything BUT 'social gospel'.

in fact, those confused souls, who attempt to erect a man made fence between "social gospel" and "salvation gospel" have grasped the wrong end of the stick.

It IS THE GOSPEL.....do you hear me? THE GOSPEL...One, no fenceline.

THIS, right here, is a good Word, only God the Holy Ghost could have propelled you to give this Word:

In reading this thread and others similar I am always left asking "why do people spend so much time reading contemporary writers at the expense of the Scriptures?"

Why?

amen.

i just read thru this thread, and it is JUST TERRIBLE.

i'm not referencing any one person, though Tom would be well advised to take out a big finishing hammer, and smash his computer to bits....barinh that dramatic, mayhap he ask the Lord, if he should 'fast' from indulging in this hellish diatribe/'dialogue'.

to me, this forum has become so hellish, that it literally tears my heart in two, because here we have a website, with many wonderfully annointed sermons and teachings from giants in the Faith, there is no governmental powers to censor or censure a free and loving discourse on the Beauty of Messiah Jesus.....and the whole thing has just devolved thru the years into a haunt of neo-pharraisical venom and religioustic bile.

if an 'outsider', or 'the lost' as some are wont to term them, were to just start reading these "posts", in an attempt to see how the Grace of Messiah, the Love of Jesus comes to live IN a saved sinner, what under the sun, would EVER make them "envious of so great a Salvation"?

"Look how they love one another"?

i defy ANYONE here, to tell me how the posts here carry with them the Beauty of Jesus' Call in Matthew 11

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

Matthew 11:28-30

which by the way is from the ESV version, and even the topic of "what Bible" one reads has been fodder for some of the most ugly "religious" threads and posts i've ever read.

this is all so heartbreaking...well saints guess what?

The Day of the LORD is nigh upon us, and such foolishness will be burned in the fire, like the straw and stubble it is...so when it comes for any of us to say "Lord, Lord...." PRAY none of us hears the rest of that sentence, "I never knew you"....thats my prayer always, because one must fear God and revere God, and i've literally come to the point, that any more posting...or reading ANYTHING on this forum, is a terrible heart breaking stumble

But as I pick myself up off the floor, and rub away some of the shot-gun pellets that came my way,

Well, that's really helpful. What came 'your' way?

Whatever the angle was that prompted that - it did help me to decide to not join in with KP's thread, if she returns for it - but to find a cheap used copy of "Life Together" to reread instead.
Thanks for finalizing my decision!

" A lie from the pit of hell.
i cannot keep silent.
this lie, Tom, that spewed forth from your keyboard...

"I then proceeded to prove that DB was involved in the murder plots up to his neck, and this is the reason of his "martrydom"...and it was not martyrdom for Christ."BT

..."is absolutely false. the few things i know, i know them well, and one of them is germany's post world war 1 history.
Dietrich was put into a concentration camp in 1943. the assassination attempt was made on 20 July 1944. in the DAYS following ANYONE thought to have anything remotely to do with this assassination were swiftly executed, the few people brought to show trials, were harangued by a nazi judge, then swiftly executed as well.

If Dietrich had ANYTHING to do with this plot, they would have killed him at once. Himmler had him murdered, in April 1945, in the closing days of the war."...Hezwelling...{ Neil]............

Well, actually, Neil, you do not "know " these things so well. There have been scores of books, well acclaimed documentaries and hundreds of articles and doctorate programs clearly documenting DB's steeped involvement in the assassination plot of Hitler.

Yes, a dozen or so men were immediately executed after the failed attempt that very night, but in total, almost 5000 were eventually hung or shot. Bonhoeffer was already in prison for publishing a pro-Jewish book without authorization, and isolated more or less because of his influence in social activism related to the religious realm.

The Nazi's systematically tortured the entire lot, one by one, over a several month period, and gained information on conspirators, and it is thought that DB was fingered by a close friend or family member, as they raided hidden documents implicating him and his family . [ His uncle was a general, a sister and a brother-in-law; all involved in Hitlers overthrow plot[s].

Below, we see a highly scholastic work done recently completed by Eric Mataxas: "Bonhoeffer"

........................Mataxas writes
"Christianity is more than formal religion, and it requires believers to be willing to sacrifice everything to God. Christianity is also more than legalistic morality. Ethics, according to Bonhoeffer, can't be reduced to a set of rules.

These beliefs are what led this humble and devout follower of Christ to be involved in a plot to assassinate Hitler.

How Christianity and assassination plots can be reconciled is hard for many to fathom--especially those who have lived only in peace and safety. "Bonhoeffer" by Eric Metaxas...................................

This was posted by Roadsign below, and I also used this book to outline some of the facts in the original "Book club" thread. These are not isolated; the facts and sheer volume proving DB's involvement is the assassination plot of Hitler are staggering.

Did DB minister the Gospel as we know it? No! He believed in a gospel that meant more than heart faith, but committing to the ethics of the right, and what you accomplish in acts, good or bad, is what matters; the end justifies the means; There-by murder is OK if it stops the atrocities.[ Holocaust]

He was a noble man, and bravely ethical, no doubt, but in my view, had twisted his faith up in a social gospel that ultimately was humanistic; man centered, that provided salvation by our ethical action. This, in my view, denies Christ, and his blood, as the one and only way, and in it's intellectual elitism, provides cover for the proud mind of man who relish elitism as part of their philosophy.

Tom personally I believe those we call the reformers were instrumental in the imprisonment and martyrdom of those we call the Anabaptist. I even started a thread that expressed that. But in the end for what. Yes, there were grievous things done in threformation. But God did use the likes of Luther and Calvin to bring truth back to the church. And we honor then for it. Whatever sins they have done have been coveted by the cross. So I am going to let it rest. And press on in Jesus.

The same can be said with Bonhoffer His works, Cost of Discipleship and Life Together have impacted many for the Kingdom. Yet you seem so adamant in proving the man to be a heretic. And for what purpose? Just to get the final word in?

Let history judge him. For that matter let God be his judge. If he was in sin before his execution then presumably he repented and his sins are covered by the blood. In one account it said he prayed fervently before. God. Then went to be hung. One can only assume he was repenting of his sins. And longing to be with Jesus.

Tom let it rest. The forum knows your views on Bonhoffer. Let others. study him if they so desire. Should you not be reading and praying about Eritrea. By the way, I am still waiting for your response to my questions
about your call to that country.

Bearmaster.

Bearmaster: You may indeed be right about "overkill" @DB and his heresies..but I was simply responding to Neil and his insistence that he had no involvement in the assassination plot against Heir Adolph. I feel that as long as there is interest, and reply, then I too may respond.

Why continue after having made my point? Because deception kills, and sometimes apologetics must be addressed in a more full way to cover the scope of an idea. The idea is that DB was just in jail for his stand against the persecution of the Jews...which is partially true, and this idea would vindicate him as the brave Christian martyr figure, which is in reality, dubious at best.

I promote the study of him; like the Berean of old, we are encouraged to prove things out, on an individual level. DB would be good for this endeavour, and hopefully it will happen on the coming DB book thread. This thread was born out of another by me, in order to pursue my intentions, that DB's twisted philosophical faith involving political activism as the Gospel is wrong, and so I will continue.

As far as my trip to Eritrea; It is by faith, and revelation that I will go. I will not discuss any other reasons or any questions with you about the why. It is my business as well as my faith, so you will have to wait until I return......I suppose. I have been on many such trips actually ministering to the desperate poor of the world the gospel of Jesus, and have seen some saved.

This is no different. If God calls, then He provides, and that is the way it is. I received a very specific call to go...and I do not know if I had ever heard of it before that time.

As far as giving it a rest; you are not required to post or read if you are not interested, are you? Some have found this interesting, and I have felt further educated as I have studied DB, and sought an understanding of his thought process, and his odd theology lumping ethics and decision making into involvement in Social Activism, which in turn always evolves into Political Activism.

In the end, he forsook it all, stirring anti-Christian ideas into the pot proving the end justifies the means to change the plight of the helpless; The persecuted Jew. Noble; yes...Christian, no. I think it is a quandary we all face , but the major difference I see that there is no evidence, as I see it, that DB was ever born again, or led anyone to Christ, or preached or taught about the Blood of Christ covering our sin as the only way to salvation.

He may be the most popularized Theologian in the 20th century, but he was not a Christian theologian, as I see it. This is what makes him dangerous.

Tom I sincerely pray that you have the humility of Christ if you go to Eritrea. The persecuted church is not some game or adventure. It is people who suffer daily and pay the price for their stand for Jesus. I have heard stories of Americans who know little of the realities of the persecuted who have gone into restricted nations. They have put the persecuted at risk and have put people's lives in danger.

I sincerely hope you keep this on mind. Tom I pray for the persecuted church 3 night's a week with a group of intercessors from across the country. We love these people and will weep for them. That is why I asked. Can you weep for Eritrea?

Yes, it is your business as to why you go to Eritrea. But Tom I remind you these are people. Precious souls who suffer for Jesus. This is not some spiritual project or mission trip. You need to weep for that country. You need to identify with tears into their sufferings. You need to visualize what is in that shipping container or see that saint chained in the hole and weep for him.

Tom If you cannot weep for Eritrea. I wonder if you should go to that country. You speak of visions and revelation and a date. I never yet hear you say you cry for Eritrea.

Bearmaster.

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

..." But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

The Gospel of Christ is made for the illiterate man, the desperate poor of the Earth, and it always creates a flat world of love and respect as we are commanded to love equally and to honor equally the least of the brothers or sisters, even above ourselves.

I think of the house churches in Early Jerusalem who broke bread together daily, and shared all things in common, and were rewarded with great joy upon them.

"Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it."

This speaks of the glory upon the true church, as it was at Jerusalem, and the Pauline plants; Strait and simple, Come to the waters and drink. The valleys are the poor and downtrodden, the outcasts, the widow and the orphan...the lowly.

The mountains are the proud, the elite, the blessed rulers in their own right over God's heritage, the Pharisee. The CROOKED strait are the usurpings of manipulative doctrines that maintain a controlling priest class, that breaks the body apart into an over-class and an underclass; it must not be so.

The rough places are the distractions and opposition that emits inside the church, and the persecution and wars without to corrupt her simple love for each other, and for God himself above all.

Then there is the glory of the Lord. When all of these things are plowed under, there arises a flat world of love; the level plain! Here is the Word! Jesus says; "I will manifest my glory here! and all the world will see Me resting upon you! Glory!

"Behold, How they love one another!"...all Jerusalem proclaimed. This is the simple Blood driven gospel that man can be clean of all sin, all oppression, and actually partake in His Eternal Nature; by receiving and believing the good news that Jesus died and rose; FOR THEM! no matter their position, their status, or social standing; THE BORN AGAIN! This is the simplicity of the gospel of Christ.

The Gospel of Paul, CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED....and a living a daily life walking in love and mercy, while learning how to obey and love God, and laying your life down for the least of God's family...becoming a mercy giver, while striving to be possessed by the ONE who gave all; Jesus!

Compare this to the complex mental gymnastics of Bonhoeffer, who never speaks of such things, nor really never lives it, but twists something so beautiful and clear, as the Sermon on the Mount, into a cry for Social/Political activism, and then justifies it all by opinionated intellectualism that cries out "MY WAY!"...My ethics, my activism is my proof that I follow God....!

And it does not, but in my mind draws a mystic cloud down that is hard to define as you look into it, and of course the uneducated cannot because of it's apparent intellectual complexity. It's an enormous maze of empirical thinking justifying one theological advance while steadily contradicting another.....until alas...your wanted for attempted murder [ even the most evil of men]...and you have led many down the same path as yourself; your disciples.

Please compare this to the gospel of Paul, and Corinthians 13; the meaning of Jesus' Love, and we must discern this fruit for us, the sinner, and worship of our Creator. There is fruit born, either way; one is the thinking man atop an ivory tower dictating philosophical ideals from high, while preaching something about ethics, and social activism, rather than Christ and him crucified....and to top all of that off, it all evolves, and the thinking changes as it grows....and what does it leave you with?

Empty....For you have believed a lie, and received another gospel.

One is full; one is empty.

Bearmaster: How do you know my sentiments for the lost, or Eritrea. How do you know if I carry God's heart? And weeping seems to so important to you...Well weep then, but do not lay this emotionalism on me.

It is by faith that we overcome. By faith! And that is believing that there is a Throne, and an actual God who sits there, and rules over all. It is this God that I obey, by faith, and not whether I weep or not.

Your faith seems to be involved with crying a lot.
OK.. then live it, and I hope you are blessed; really. But, please do not judge me if I do not share your sentiments.

So, have you travelled in Gospel mission work? I have, somewhat, both here in America and out. So, with your great burden for Eritrea, you may pray that God moves there. I already have my marching orders, and it is by faith, as feeble as mine is.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

I have been graced to carry His heart now and then, believe it or not, and it has been the most awesome experience I could express..especially when He allows me to impart Him Himself to others; this is the nature of authentic ministry.

I think of this thought compared to DB..[ not that I have arrived at all. ] He never seemed to arrive here. I think as I have witnessed his thoughts, it is because he was never born again from above.