What is the point of prophecy?

The Nature of Bible Prophecy I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. (Joh 13:18-20 KJV)Here’s a question which constantly comes to my mind when I see people posting on Second Coming. People of very different persuasions speak with equal certainty of future events. I have an observation and a question.The observation: Before the coming of the Lord the interpreters of the Old Testament prophecies were, it appears, universally mistaken in their interpretation. They were so certain of their predictions that when the ‘stone’ came and would not fit into their prefabricated building they rejected it.The question: Is the purpose of prophecy to provide predictions and consequently future schedules of events? The Lord’s words above seem to suggest a totally different purpose to prophecy, namely that ‘when it happens people will recognise it’ rather than deciding what is going to happen and then awaiting it.It is because of this that I have refused to systemise or synchronise the events of the Second Coming. I used to be a very informed pre-trib, pre-mill advocate but have long since abandoned the attempt to make a seemless schedule for the last times.What do you think? What is the purpose of prophecy and is it always inevitable?

The Lord’s words above seem to suggest a totally different purpose to prophecy, namely that ‘when it happens people will recognise it’ rather than deciding what is going to happen and then awaiting it.That is what I believe. I am a post tribber (previous pretribber) who is confused millenially :-P ..amill or premill???? That is the question........Preterism, well, I can't wrap my mind around that at this point in time.In any case, the "specifics" of the days preceeding His return in my opinion can only be speculated on. None of us knows how events will play out exactly. When we seem to have all down I believe there is greater reason to believe deception can occur---if not deception, then great, great discouragement. I think the thing we need to do is be informed WHAT the Word says and let the Holy Spirit reveal truth as events come to pass. Many a Christian has looked foolish to the world as well as to other Christians when they have jumped on a bandwagon and been proven wrong........."I THINK", "IT COULD BE"......etc.....are all good ways to presently evaluate prophecies which have yet to come to pass. Just my opinion. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

"...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

What do you think? What is the purpose of prophecy and is it always inevitable?Hi Bro Ron,I believe that few things truly weigh a person like prophecy. What I mean is, the reading of the prophesies will bring to the surface tendencies and motives that tell much about us. Your point about how many of the Jews stumble over that stumbling stone is case in point. They knew basically the 'when' of the Lord's first coming, but not the 'what' (what is the purpose of His coming in other words?). Their sinful and hardenedhearts caused them to bend in the direction of their preconceived and selfish notions. Some repented of this and followed Christ- others carried through and determined Him to be a false Messiah. Where are we in these things? We know the 'what' but not the 'when.' It is the exact opposite as the scenerio of the Jews, but just as much a stone of stumbling. And so too, men's selfish motives come into play and pretty soon no Christian (at least in the west) is going to suffer because we will all be 'raptured' out of here. You are also right in the first assertion. I would only add that I believe there are certain warnings in Revelation that we need to greatly take heed to. Especially the one about receiving a mark in the right hand or forehead. I personally believe the Lord's return is immanent. That does not believe we will not suffer greatly before it's all said and done. I was raised 'pre-trib' and have lived those fears since a child. I have a view now that is quite simple- "Be ye ready..." Ready for what? What ever happens, just be ready. For in such a time as we think not our Lord doth come. Ready to live and ready to die for Him. Ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us. Ready to follow Him outside the camp bearing His reproach- for here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come. What ever happens, just be ready. God Bless,-Robert

Before the coming of the Lord the interpreters of the Old Testament prophecies were, it appears, universally mistaken in their interpretation. They were so certain of their predictions that when the ‘stone’ came and would not fit into their prefabricated building they rejected it.Thank you Ron.Have had exactly the same musings for awhile and that keeps me outside or in the 'pan'-camp. Haven't been convinced one way or the other nor have I been able to follow along with those who seem to think they have this all figured out. There is too much being left out or overlooked to tie a nice bow around it all.In fact it seems that certain sides contradict themselves often without even realizing it, a lot of proof texting to buttress positions.With Robert here on all this, " Watch and pray...lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping." To the question and; ‘when it happens people will recognize it’ Would agree and yet can't help but wonder how much of a repeat the last time will be to the first, going back to that original observation.

If one is walking in the Lord, when these things happen there will be no doubt about it. There are some things which are plain and simple to understand, eg the great earthquake that will shake the world, the locsuts with the stings of scorpion etc and there is a definate order in the way these things will happen. The point is we must keep our focus on God because it is Him who directs these things and focus on Him is the key. The minute we try to interpret these spirirtual things and the bible in any other light, be it on an intellectual level or otherwise, we have LOST it all. In short the point of prophecy is to compell us to focus on God and seek Him in spirit and in truth.

Hi IRONMAN,Certainly, but was alluding to the same thing Ron first mentioned:Before the coming of the Lord the interpreters of the Old Testament prophecies were, it appears, universally mistaken in their interpretation. They were so certain of their predictions that when the ‘stone’ came and would not fit into their prefabricated building they rejected it.Similiarly, for the more adamant camp defenders or building tennants we might say, this still seems a distinct possibility. Would also agree with you on where are focus ought to be, not to dismiss this out of hand but think the biggest part of this whole question is to the 'point', which may prove to be telling and may be broader as this develops. Seems to be a hint of that right out of the verse Ron originally quoted: but that the scripture may be fulfilled

Indeed bro, I forgot to mention that prophecy also allows us a to see a different part of the character of God or to see Him in a different light. That really was the main thing behind my post, it would have helped if I had mentioned it. :-?

Personally speaking I have always liked what the late Keith Green said: "I hope that I'm raptured out before the tribulation but I'm going to prepare myself to go through the tribulation". I don't believe we are any wiser or more prepared for Jesus now than the Jews in the first century. Jesus said when he returns will he find faith on earth?And he gave pictures of the 10 virgins with only half being ready , but all were sleeping.And many more things did Jesus say that lets me know that the people of God won't be ready or at least half when he comes to take his purchased to heaven for the marriage feast. I normally just sit back and stay out of end time -time table type teachings , I think they tickle iching ears. Bro. Daryl

What do you think? What is the purpose of prophecy and is it always inevitable? The purpose of prophesy is for edification and confirmation , however in the case of Agabus who foretold of the famine to come in Judea it would appear he spoke inorder that provision might be made for the believers in Judea.Is it always inevitable? I believe there are some things God has set in place by His sovereign will that cannot be altered but there are somethings He has decreed that we can alter through our influence in prayer and obedience to God, as in the case of Jonah.And even in that I see God as unwilling to destroy that wicked nation, by forcing Jonah to go.Maybe he was a bad example!lol! But you get my main idea. What do you think? Bro. Daryl

To get the winning lottery numbers?Perhaps not? The real reason I asked this question was to challenge the current position among the majority of evangelicals that we have a sort of coded timetable for the future. If this is the purpose of the New Testament's prophetic stream it is quite different to that in the Old Testament.The purpose of OT prophecy does seem to fit with the general statement of the Lord"From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He. (Joh 13:19 NASB)In this sense of the prophetic would not be to provide a timetable for the future but so that when the future 'happened' His people would know that it was all in hand. The sense in this verse is not so that you will be warned before hand, but 'in order that' when it happens you will know that I knew. In other words it will confirm who I am, not give you a timetable for the future.If this is the main purpose of prophecy then Jake is partially right in the amount of wasted energies that have gone into the interpretation of the book of Revelation as a coded timetable.It would require a complete paradigm shift for the evangelical world and confine all those pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, partial rapture, pre-millenniel, post-milleniel, a-millenial books to the church archive. :-?

Brother Ron,This is my short list as to what i think the point of prophecy is ...#1 - Divine Exhortation: God's instruction towards what needs to be built up ...#2 - Divine Condemnation: God's instruction towards what needs to be torn down ...#3 - Divine Warning: REPENT or else God will reveal His displeasure ... #4 - Divine Foresight: Signs for the faithful to look for in order to escape the consequences of ignoring the prior three ...i can kinda see how most of Israel missed Christ in His first coming, they were primarily looking for a conquering King that would slam dunk the Romans, but i think God has been much clearer to we believer's about His secong coming ... And the thing about the Revelation that gets me is that argurably the most graphic book regarding end time prophecy is the only book that comes with it's own special blessing for those that read (familiarize) themselves with it ... i've often wondered why that was, and have wondered if maybe the reason is that God, thru the Revelation, wanted to keep all subsequent believer's ever vigilant, on our toes, with hand cupped to our spiritual ears, listening, looking for the signs of His second coming ... True such intensity may have driven some to distraction but just because man might get prophecy twisted and miss it, or misconstrue it, doesn't (to me) diminish the importance of said prophecy ... What that says to me is that man has his priorities twisted in that the redemption (reward) of Biblical prophecy is not in figuring out when or how it will happen, but in living every day as if Biblical prophecy will come to pass in the very next second ... i think losing this type urgency is what allows complacency then apostacy to set into the preacher and believer alike ... A little leaven (laxity), and the next thing you got is Laodicea ... i know in my own life, and Christian walk, what has seperated me, and is seperating me even moreso to date from the great majority of my Christian peers is that i see fulfilment of Bible prophecy everyday, every where i look, and every where i turn ... Therefore a lotta saved folk think i'm certfiable, and i'm an over zealous religious nut to most heathen ... They're all intitled to their opinion, but i know that God the Father and Son don't see me that way, and Holy Spirit definitely doesn't because He knows (finally, thank You Jesus!) that He's got my undivided attention, and so loves to commune with me, and i Him, and really that's all i need ... So even if Christ doesn't return in my lifetime, i know that my living my life in this sense of urgency is in the long run beneficial to myself (keeps me clear with God), those about me (i'm concerened that they hear the Gospel before it's to late), but most importantly to Him (because He finds me a willing open vessel to His use now) ... To me that's become a win - win situation!Bottom line is we may argue over pre, mid and post trib, but one thing we all should agree on, and that is that one day we'll hear trumpets, Jesus will crack the sky, and in an instant we'll become the greater fulfilment of what we so sillily (if that's a word) argue about and question today ... Bible prophecy ...

I would only add that I believe there are certain warnings in Revelation that we need to greatly take heed to. Especially the one about receiving a mark in the right hand or forehead.I intended to ask this ages ago but forgot. The book of Revelation (btw folks it is Revelation not Revelations) is full of symbols beasts with multiple heads, lambs on throne, dragons pulling a third of the stars down, the numbers 144000, 7, 1000 all seem to be symbolic to me. Here's my question... are you expecting a visible mark on the forehead or hand? Isn't it more likely that this is a link with And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. (Deu 6:6-8 KJV) The Jews interpreted this literally and wore their phylacteries, but surely the sense was that their lives, in thought and deed, were to be subject to the will of God? In like manner is it not likely that the 'mark' of the beast is similarly describing those whose whole lives, in thought and deed, are subject to his will?If this is so, the 'mark of the beast' is not something which is coming but something which has been here from the beginning?

i've often wondered why that was, and have wondered if maybe the reason is that God, thru the Revelation, wanted to keep all subsequent believer's ever vigilant, on our toes, with hand cupped to our spiritual ears, listening, looking for the signs of His second coming ...I was with you until the 'looking for the signs' bit. This is really the purpose of my question. When I say 'prophecy' in this provocative title I had in mind predictive prophecy of the Daniel, Zechariah, Revelation kind which is usually called apocalyptic. I know that there are many forms of prophecy and the predictive is only a proportion.My main anxiety about the way most evangelicals use the Revelation is just this 'looking for the signs'. The experts in this were the Plymouth Brethren and particularly people like C I Scofield. Spurgeon, who was a contemporary of these men once said "Ye men of Plymouth, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."Spurgeon had a very keen sense of humour!

I agree with you about the way we all seemingly look for a sign. I believe the signs will be there but the events of the day will be so fast paced with so much happening all at once , the signs will be missed. The term used for the disciples "gazing" , I believe was theatre, so it was a long drawn out gaze or observation.It would seem to me that in our humanity we are fascinated with even the thought of signs in the heavens and so are the unbelieving.If one wants to get a good following all he has to do is specilize in this area.And so I still say much of te signs preaching is out of balance and scratches itching ears.You're initial observation about a proof of Jesus being who he said he was is , I believe sound doctrine,or healthy doctrine.

Bro Ron you wrote;"I was with you until the 'looking for the signs' bit". HALLELEUJAH! ... 1'm praising God for the remainder that your were with me on! ... '0)You further wrote;"My main anxiety about the way most evangelicals use the Revelation is just this 'looking for the signs". That i'd say is probably just human nature, even child like wonderment, as with Jesus disciples in ...Matt.24[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?i have to confess that i'd be one of those who caused you "anxiety" in this regard because even tho i see/get more from the Revelation than just signs, if id'a been counted amongst Christ disciples in the afore line of questioning, Jesus would have had to personally sit me down ...And then there's this scripture that (i think) tells me that if He took the time to write the signs down, i should at least take the time to be on the look out for them ...Matt.16[1] The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.[2] He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.[3] And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?But as i stated previously ... My main job as a Christian is to live my life like He's coming in the next second ... signs or not ...PS - i've listened to a few of your lectures and noticed in one of them that you used the same term in one of them that you used here "most evangelicals" ... This is not a loades question, i'm just curious, do you concider yourself an "evangelical", and if not then what?

And then there's this scripture that (i think) tells me that if He took the time to write the signs down, i should at least take the time to be on the look out for them ..But that is my point. Signs are not always pointers to the future.PS - i've listened to a few of your lectures and noticed in one of them that you used the same term in one of them that you used here "most evangelicals" ... This is not a loades question, i'm just curious, do you concider yourself an "evangelical", and if not then what?Yes, I regard myself as an evangelical. I just find difficulty in regarding some evangelicals as evangelicals! :-o Perhaps I should begin to use the phrase 'most contemporary evangelicals'. In much of my thinking I would be much more closely aligned to the 'classical evangelicals' of earlier years. 'Evangelical' used to mean 'bible-based', now it is a sub-culture with a whole language and practice that is mostly tradition and much less 'bible-based'. This is why I called my own site 'the bible base'.

Here is something about the mark of the beast that might be interesting to watch. It is a powerpoint slide show. I would just watch the slide show. The guy writing the article about it, well I dont if he is Christian. Probably not, since the article is under Folklore and urban legends. but here it the link. What do you all think? Slide SHowEDIT:Go ahead and read what the guy says. I havent really researched it out much to see who is correct.

Brother Ron you wrote;"The book of Revelation is full of symbols beasts with multiple heads((( Which i believe to be representative of political powers ...)))lambs on throne, ((( Which i believe to be representative of Christ ... )))dragons pulling a third of the stars down, ((( Which i believe to be representative of satan and the third of the angels that fell with him ...)))the numbers 144000,((( Which i believe to be literal Israelites, 12,000 from each tribe, as the first fruits Bride to Jehovah ... And as a funny aside i might add is the subject that got me banned at age 14 from participating in the Jehovah's Witness Tuesday night Bible study i was raised in ... They believe that the 144,000 is the number of a special group amongst themselves that they call the "faithful and discret slave class" ... Well in the meeting i heard God tell me to tell them that they were wrong, and that the 144,000 were actual Israelites, 12,000 from each tribe taken by Jehovah to Himself ... i raised my hand, was called on, and delivered the message, stating first that "God just told me to tell you" ... That was both the beginning of my end with the JW's and my subsequent weirdness to any other organized/denominational religious group i've been attached to ... ))) 7, 1000 all seem to be symbolic to me ...((( And i see them as literal ... JW's also see many of the numbers in the Revelation as symbolic, but what makes a mess of it all is when they assign their interpretations to it ... ))) Here's my question... are you expecting a visible mark on the forehead or hand?((( If it says a "mark" i figure it's something tangible, even if it is something invisible as an implanted micr-chip, or whatever new technology is available at the time ... But praise God that none of our suppositions on The Revelation weighs on our salvation in Christ on this side of the last book ... )))

Brother Ron you wrote;"But that is my point. Signs are not always pointers to the future".At this point in "time" i'd have to agree with you ... For what was "future" for Christ disciples, now seems like my/our "present" ... So i'm not in fact looking for future signs, to me they're already upon us ... So i'll agree ... i think Bible prophecy is a two edged sword, sorta like God killing two birds with one stone, how He'd send His prophets as a present sign, or a short time distance sign in many aspects, and then veer off waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay into the future to tell them about way future events ... i think the reason why so many have become fixated on future signs is that the past ones are past, but such fixation can in fact make one miss what we should be seeing in our present, or the additional lessons that may be there ... Prophecy is just down right fascinating to some and is the strongest draw, while it's scary to others and only repulses ... i guess there's some kind of balance in what comes out of the middle ...You wrote;"I just find difficulty in regarding some evangelicals as evangelicals"! Ha! .... ha! ... This is very funny brother Ron ... As my grandchildren would say, "I feel ya" ... Even on our sometimes opposite ends i suppose you and i share at least one thing in common, the same title from the newer folk in either of our assignments ... we're "dinosaurs" ... You should see the looks i get when i suggest (getting back to) praying, waiting, weeping and tarrying on Holy Spirit ... That's what OLD Pentecostalism used to do ... i pray your continued strength in Jesus name ...

How do you judge which is literal and which is representative?

Man ... brother Ron,This would be something that i wish we could actually sit down together face to face, pray to Holy Spirit for His guidance and unvieling, and just go at it as two brothers in Christ searching the deep mysteries of God ... The Revelation is something that i wouldn't even want to try and type about in it's depth ...i've been in The Revelation all my life (and the prophets too for that matter) for the JW's are heavy into the prophets ... Then it seems that after i got saved, and truly came to understanding just who Holy Spirit is, what He does, and the power of His giving me Jer. 33:3 as my life verse, i just began to diligently ask Him to explain The Revelation to me and He has ... i can't explain it any simpler than that ... i read The Revelation, and for the greater part it's not a mystery to me anymore ... It just seems so plain to me in it's words ... And that revealing really did begin with me back when i was 14, and distictly hearing Him say what was wrong in the JW's interpretation of the 144,000 ... It's the same with any study that anyone else has done on the Revelation ... Sometimes i'll read thru (like one Carlton Hilton did some years ago) and the Holy Spirit just makes the mistakes pop out to me ... Less often i'll read thru and Holy Spirit will show me something else i hadn't known before ...Brother Ron i rely heavily on Holy Spirit, and i totally believe that diligent seeking incites Him to teach me light years ahead in the knowledge of God ... That's how/why He's able to confound the wise with such a foolish one as myself ...He's not a respecter of persons ... May i suggest that you try Him at His word and just pray Holy Spirit to begin revealing The Revelation to you ... Then just sit down and begin to read it, listen to it if you have tapes or CD, stick with it, and don't be concerned with time, and watch how He'll begin to put bits and pieces of it's puzzle together for you ... It's a most fascinating process, and a real faith builder in the process ...In the trilogy (i believe) God gave me back in 1985/87 ... The third book is entitled "The Revelation Revealed" ... That's the one He gave me certain info on, then silence ... i suppose there's something else He wants to show me before He gives me it's finish ... If it's His will i sure would love to finish it and get it out for consumption ... But then there's two installments before it ...

Brother Ron i rely heavily on Holy Spirit, and i totally believe that diligent seeking incites Him to teach me light years ahead in the knowledge of God ... That's how/why He's able to confound the wise with such a foolish one as myself ...indeed, I have to agree on that note. There is an openness we need to have with God for Him to teach us these things in the spirit. All to often we close ourselves to it to stay on a more traditional course and we miss out on so much.

Brother Ron i rely heavily on Holy Spirit, and i totally believe that diligent seeking incites Him to teach me light years ahead in the knowledge of God ... That's how/why He's able to confound the wise with such a foolish one as myself ...But I think all Christian Bible students would say the same. I certainly would; at least the first phrase of this statemeent. You see I would use the same language in saying that I believe the Lord has shown me that the 144000 are not literally the tribes of Israel. Where do we go from there? There are only a few possibilities.1. You are right and I am wrong2. I am right and you are wrong3. We are both wrong.there are no other options. It is not possible for us 'both to be right', so one or both of us is wrong.What do you do when Godly men who wait upon God come to different conclusions on major aspects of interpretation? What is the difference between what you are doing and what Jake is doing? He would say the Holy Spirit has shown him that Genesis is to be interpreted as he interprets it.Christians have thought about this kind of thing for a long time and come up with certain rules of 'exegesis'; "what are the words saying?". Then we move on to 'exposition'; "what are they saying to us/me?"

philologos wrote:Christians have thought about this kind of thing for a long time and come up with certain rules of 'exegesis'; "what are the words saying?". Then we move on to 'exposition'; "what are they saying to us/me?"Maybe with this choppy subject a good dose of hermeneutics would go down well. :-D Also in all theology there is a God factor, an area that we just do not see, the face of God as it were. He is the only one who can hold all truth together at the same time and not build an altar to it.

Also in all theology there is a God factor, an area that we just do not see, the face of God as it were. He is the only one who can hold all truth together at the same time and not build an altar to it.which is why I often used to use the sign off - WKIP we know in part.

Brother Ron you wrote;"You see I would use the same language in saying that I believe the Lord has shown me that the 144000 are not literally the tribes of Israel. Where do we go from there"? Ha! ... ha! ... Funny you should ask ... Our Lord woke me up this morning with this on my mind ... Take the Revelation one chapter at a time and post in "red" what i see as "symbolic" and in "green" what i see as literal, then we can discuss it from there ... NOW IF YOU CAN JUST TELL ME HOW TO POST TEXT IN RED AND GREEN ...i'm excited about this for this may be His taking me up again in The Revelation where He left me off so many years ago ... and if not still to Him be the glory ... i'll start as soon as i can!You continued;"There are only a few possibilities.1. You are right and I am wrong2. I am right and you are wrong3. We are both wrong.there are no other options. It is not possible for us 'both to be right', so one or both of us is wrong".Amen ... All of us to a greater or lesser tint are seeing thru our RayBans darkly ... So to be honest i don't even approach things like this anymore from the point of which human is right or wrong ... i approach it more now from the point that Holy Spirit is always right, and so in this discussion let's all rely on Him to clarify things to us, as much as it is allowed for us to know on this side of the last book ... So i'm open to Him if in discussion He shows me where i need to alter a former belief ... If we reach an empasse on a point, we just reach an empasse, and move on ...The other thing that He's pointed out to me in my discussions on the Revelation is that in this dispensation of grace, this church age, those of us who are in fact saved, cannot add or take away from our salvation because we don't see eye to eye on the prophets ... So if even you and i, or anyone else, after an exhaustive discussion of The Revelation still see from our initial perspectives, so be it, we're still brothers in Christ, still in our Christian love one for the other, and when we meet on the other side we'll ALL know the same thing for a certainty ...if God counts in not robbery to sit down and reason with us, i think it brings Him pleasure when we do it amongst one another, as long as it ends in continued brotherly love ...You concluded;"What is the difference between what you are doing and what Jake is doing"?Brother Bub if you're reading this what i'm about to say to brother Ron is not meant to hurt you, but i think you're pretty well aware of what you do ...Now come on brother Ron, "i'm not prone to coloring that far out of the lines" .... '0)

Hardly feel qualified to utter this, so that it may be taken with the knowledge of one stumbling about...For a very good reason there is a nudge (admonition?) towards letting all things be interpreted through the word of God. If there is anything that we have mastery over, it's fooling ourselves. Am highly suspect of most things uttered as something the Holy Spirit is telling me/us/you/them - that cannot be squared with scripture and that being all things that generate through our fallen minds, not that we bring our 'experiences' of what we think the Lord, by the Holy Spirit is saying and then finding whatever verses of scripture to buttress them but the opposite, that we "test" all things by the standard that is already in place. Gods thought.Think it is very dangerous to be led by our 'experiences' of thought, that we have these things all figured out because the Holy Spirit has shown me. As Ron pointed out, ultimately there is is a limited number of ultimate possibilities:What do you do when Godly men who wait upon God come to different conclusions on major aspects of interpretation? What is the difference between what you are doing and what Jake is doing? He would say the Holy Spirit has shown him that Genesis is to be interpreted as he interprets it.Christians have thought about this kind of thing for a long time and come up with certain rules of 'exegesis'; "what are the words saying?". Then we move on to 'exposition'; "what are they saying to us/me?"This cannot be emphasized enough, in fact wondering if this could not be considered the root malady of where Christianity has lost it's moorings.Doesn't it seem a bit odd that out of the thousands of years of recorded scripture there is what amounts to a handful of prophets and now they are everywhere and they are contradicting themselves into delusion.That is not to imply that the Lord is not speaking, but certainly He is not contradicting Himself by what He is already said. The error always rest's with us and going back to sound exegesis is not some kooky theological construct for starchy old fundamentalists who don't know the leadings and prompting of the Holy Spirit, how could that be when it is He Himself who wrote the book;2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Perhaps more importantly is the verse prior:2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.There is hardly a day that goes by that I don't wonder if I spoke correctly around here, that thought of "I am off" here on this or that thing that is being discussed, that I need to reconsider because of something one of the Brethren here mentions that I had not paid attention to before, that will send me back to find out "if these things are so" and even then, it is often with the same sense of WKIP. That constant learning experience.Hope not to dissuade anyone as just as certainly the Lord will lead us differently through varying circumstances. It could go without saying that "seems" is a favorite word and not out of paranoia or 'lack of faith' but maybe it is because it got lodged in part, from the sense of what was stated here:Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; Feel like I am putting myself into a predicament here. Don't want to make one verse stand on all fours and yet there is over and over again the exhortation throughout scripture to 'study', to 'test', to be 'taught,' 'we see through a glass darkly'...Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Could go on infinitely and surely other questions are already being anticipated, "but what about this scripture?...Sigh, the problem of being a layman and dealing with such lofty things like God's word. Seems we need some clearer definitions of original intent and meaning, "what are the words saying?". And the original question asked "What is the point of prophecy?" Maybe we haven't gone far enough back to the definitions of prophet and prophecy, it is my limited understanding that what was foretold by the prophets of old and the meaning behind: Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Are not one in the same thing. It seems that often times we are holding our opinions up as the standard to measure Gods word instead of measuring our opinions by the word of God.Feeling very disconnected and grieved over nothing and everything in particular lately and am hesitant to say anything, if the leadings of the Holy Spirit are at all in evidence within I have been in rebellion. It seems primarily the promptings are to keep my big mouth shut, so I can only attribute all this to a concern for being careful and prayerful about what 'we think' and how we measure that against what God has already said. Where that is generated from only God knows...A part of it may be generated out this; Controversy or Concern? Ad for the UCCLastly, please excuse my folly and do correct my thinking, ignoring as always whatever is unnecessary... again, kind of out of sorts...

Brother Mike,i hear what you're saying, and rest assured anything that i post i will post as what i understand to be, not that i'm a final authority on it, or know all about it ...When i say i understand The Revelation i don't mean each and every part, case in point the meaning of the number 666 ... What i mean is that i catch the gist of, see the time line (not the time in which it will occur), and in my spirit catch some of it's definitions by other scriptures that come to mind ... Plus there are the points in both Daniel and the Revelation where God give the symbol, and then turns right around and gives us the literal meaning ... if this discussion takes off i know that i'm gonna learn things that i don't know right now, because it's gonna make us dig, and search, and pray, and seek ...Let me give you an example of what i think will come out of such a discussion ... i remember just before i got saved a Baptist preacher was trying to scriptually get me to see that Holy Spirit too was God, and that God was in fact triune if i could but just see who Holy Spirit actuall is, and what He does ... My former JW blindness just couldn't see it ... Then in the midst of our conversation that preacher just stopped and blurted out something to the effect of, "Holy Spirit please remove the blinders from His eyes, and reveal to Him who you are" ... Then the preacher said, "Read the passage again" ... And amazingly, instantly it was like scales fell off my eyes, i saw Holy Spirit, i saw the Trinity of the Godhead, and of course i've not been the same since ...i'm not out to convince ... i'm out to discuss ... and as i said if we come to an empasse on any point(s) we just move on ... for from my experience i know it's only Holy Spirit who can reveal the mysteries of God ... Even the Spirit of God can only lead us horses to His water, but He can't make us drink ... That will not happen unless the thirst we have is a true thirst for His knowledge, and not our own ...

Hi Rahman,On the way to work it dawned on me that I may have forgotten that this was in general and not necessarly aimed specificly...Fully understand and appreciate this shared sentiment: i'm not out to convince ... i'm out to discuss Heard someone quoting I believe it was Aristotle the other day:"I cannot teach you anything, I can only try to make you think"And I am glad he said it, have a hard enough time thinking about what I may think about what I think...I think :-?

Contradictions among these are bound to happen. How do Quakers deal with this? Listen to the still, small voice inside, not your head or your ego. It doesn't lie.And look where it has led them; Further and further away from the only authorititive standard.

bubbaguy wrote:I hope you are not saying that people should ignore the Inner Light. I know you adressed this comment to Ron, but here is a scripture to ponder on in this regard:The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness. This raises an interesting question, how does one know that the light within them is not darkness?

Consider then the wonder of this continuing testimony; and my delights wereJakeI've given up counting how many times you have accused me of coming close to the B word.I am saying, and you know it, that if the 'inner light' is not in full conformity to the revealed Word of God, it is darkness, and a blasphemy to call it light. Yes, in case you missed it, I am saying that people should not only ignore but should consciously reject the 'inner light if it is not in full conformity to the Word of God.Is that clear enough?

If the Bible is literal and inerrant, as you say, what is the point of the Holy Spirit? It can only deliver messages that you already have in the book!Hi Jake,The best illustration that I can think of, as far as the Holy Spirit is concerned, is the similarity of the role of the U.S. Supreme Court Justices in interpreting the law. All of their decisions, however, are ONLY within the confines of the constitution.We believe, however, that the real author of the bible is the Holy Spirit who inspired man to declare truth. Hence, the word is infallible and inerrant. It's authority is inherent. Consider this:9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 1 Cor 2:9-11It is only the Holy Spirit who can bring us into all truth about God, that we may know Him. Indeed how can a finite being even begin to grasp the mind of God who is infinite? That the intellect is not the organ of knowledge is clearly declared in Jeremaiah 24:77And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart. We stand on level ground. This is why many geniuses are atheists and many idiots, even in their simplicity, know God in reality. Truth is eternal, unchanging. As important as context is, the truth of God is as true thousands of years ago as it is today. But the real context that we need to be conscious of is that the truth is never separate from Christ. Didn't He say 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39He is the truth. The truth is a Person. He is the completeness of God's revelation to man. All truth is wrapped up in Christ. To say that the bible "can only deliver the messages that you already have in the book!" shows how far you have gone digging up the truth found therein. There is no such thing as "unimportant" or "old" or "common" revelation of Christ. I fear that the truth you have already known is apart from Christ and that kind of knowledge puffs up. One of the sad and natural consequences of which is to put man as the final arbiter of truth.We are responsible for carrying the Word of salvation into the future, instead of advancing the cultural biases of the time the Bible was written.We are responsible in declaring the truth of God's word, yes, but the convicting, regenerating, changing, sanctifying of anyone is never our responsibility but the Holy Spirit's. Thank God He is not limited by our abilities or inabilities to do His works. Nor by our perceived biases. After all, He is God.I hope this helps.In Christ,Rey

Brother Ron,So as not to intefere with the broader gist of this thread i've posted this thread entitled ...THE REVELATION:An Online Discussion ...Chapters 1-3 ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=5014&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go

Ron, I know where you stand on this. But it completely befuddles me. If the Bible is literal and inerrant, as you say, what is the point of the Holy Spirit? It can only deliver messages that you already have in the book!Of course, I have never said that the Bible is literal; that was a straw man that you set up. There are different genres in the scripture, narrative, discourse, poetry, symbol, apocalyptic. The point of the Holy Spirit is to lead you into truth, so that the unchanging Truth become your truth; true in Him and in you, as John puts it. It is interesting to me how you frequently slip into referring to the Holy Spirit as an it. You can no no relationship with an it, as your posts illustrate.The revelation of God's word is not done! If the 'epistles of Jake' are anything to go by, God help us!Context is indeed everthing, and because you persist, as pseudo Quakers, in the route dictated by your 'inner darkness' you have less and less in common with the propositional revelation as we have it in the Scriptures. Pseudo quakerism will drift further and further from the Truth as it is in Jesus, and ultimately become indistinguishable from Buddhism. The context of the Scriptures is the the Spirit who breathed them, and they cannot be interpreted aright without His continuing presence and fellowship.

Jake, still the contradictions are with us:Revelation of God's word is not done! (and it wasn't done the day they wrapped a cover on the Bible.) We are responsible for carrying the Word of salvation into the future, instead of advancing the cultural biases of the time the Bible was written. (Women should be submissive to their husbands!!! etc.)Context in writing is everything. There is much in the Bible that is being taken in the wrong context because we have so little understanding of the cultural idiosyncrasies that produced it. The Inner Light is all we have to discern meaning and intent. Just in these two items alone, the context IS everything...Eph 5:24 Indeed, just as the church is submissive to Christ, so wives must be submissive to their husbands in everything. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it, Eph 5:26 so that he might make it holy by cleansing it, washing it with water and the word, Eph 5:27 and might present the church to himself in all its glory, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind, but holy and without fault. Eph 5:28 In the same way, husbands must love their wives as they love their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself. Eph 5:29 For no one has ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, as Christ does the church. Eph 5:30 For we are parts of his body-of his flesh and of his bones. Eph 5:31 "That is why a man will leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh." Eph 5:32 This is a great secret, but I am talking about Christ and the church. Eph 5:33 But each individual man among you must love his wife as he loves himself; and may the wife fear her husband. This is a 'cultural' issue? If men could grasp just the essence of the first two verses..Don't see where we need to go into 'roles' as that is what is at issue here, not lording it over as some are want to think.The Holy Spirit is available to us in the here and now. We know this because Christ promises this.And we got that promise from where?The Word (Bible) is the another source we have for learning about God.That makes it sound arbitrary and the whole mess could be attributed to just that, that we will decide what applies or doesn't apply. Certainly the creation 'speaks' but God has said, in His word and we fail to heed those words;Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Contradictions among these are bound to happen. How do Quakers deal with this? Listen to the still, small voice inside, not your head or your ego. It doesn't lie.Of course not, not 'The still, small voice', the problem is in our refusal to measure what we 'think' we are hearing against what has already been written.Perfect illustration in a recent David Wilkerson message I was listening to. He was discussing about a pastor who prayed and agonized over leaving his wife for a younger women in his church. He was fully convinced after all his soul searching that it was the Lords will to leave her, despite the clear instructions in the word of God. That God approved of him doing this and he went on to continue to preach and teach and praise God and it was all completely worthless, because he flatly turned away from what was fixed and unchanging and allowed the voices in his head to dictate over and against what God has already clearly laid out before him.This is the problem with Christianity in our day, a stubborn refusal to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God and what He has stated. It is our opinions that we have set up as the final arbitrator of truth, the experiences of our own fallen nature, which certainly has affected our minds to such an extent that every kooky thing that passes through there is considered to be of the Holy Spirit with nothing to test it by except for twisting Scripture to suit our own needs as it suits our fancy.Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ron said...I am saying, and you know it, that if the 'inner light' is not in full conformity to the revealed Word of God, it is darkness, and a blasphemy to call it light. Jake,There is something terribly disturbing about the term "Inner Light." Your reference to this enigmatic phenomena strikes me as something paranormal and quite different from the person of the Holy Spirit. Whatever this "Inner Light" may be, it is supplying your intellect with many rhetorical weapons for assailing the faithfulness of the scriptures, which are the only trustworthy revelation of Gods'words to mankind. Certainly you recognize that God has used prophets and apostles to reveal and record His truth to all mankind, not just those living within a certain cultural niche. This controversy over the scriptures within your heart is not born of the Holy Spirt. 1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. Luke 11I pray that "the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."MC

bubbaguy wrote:We are commanded to follow after this Light. I am sorry, please help me find this command?

bubbaguy wrote:"that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature"As I stated before,QUakers believe there is that of God in every person. We refer to this as the Inner Light or the God within.We are commanded to follow after this Light. Just to get the record straight.Quakers did not believe that the inner light was 'God within'. Pseudo Quakers believe that. You are not distinguishing between 'the light' which Fox regarded as a witness 'to' God in everyman, and the 'seed' which had to be sown by God in an individual.Fox, his trusted friend Robert Barclay, and the genuine Quakers, said that they were always willing for their 'inner light' to be challenged by Scripture. Pseudo Quakers are always willing for the Scripture to be challenged by their 'inner light'.and who commanded you to follow 'after this light'? Don't tell me.. the light 'commanded' you. Wake up, and smell the coffee, Jake.

As I stated before,QUakers believe there is that of God in every personSinner and saint?

Evolution does not challenge Christ, but offers hope for a world where hatred is banished. That explains why the evolutionary community is so supportive of Christianity.:-? From the few paleontological or geology conferences I have attended I can assure you, that when it comes to Christians, hatred is not bannished among enlightened evolutionists. Many of these professors and scientists are very jovial and enthusiastic in their mockery of Christians.If you bought the idea that "Evolution does not challenge Christ, but offers hope for a world where hatred is banished."...you've been swindled. As a student of evolution for 20 years, you must be familiar with Darwins' racial views as well as the inevitable genocidal consequence of his materialism in the 20th century. This is what I understand from the Bible. Love conquers all, forgiveness is available through Grace provide us by Jesus' sacrifice.And yet, if the bible is full of error and culturally irrelevant, what good is your understanding of it? But I don't expect the Bible to tell me about archeology, biology, or other sciences. And I don't expect the stories in it to relate not only religious, spiritual and philosophical truths, but also an explanation of gravity or the development of life on earth.But it seems you do.Nice try...Christians don't believe the bible is a science book per se. We believe that the limited and primitive measurements of science can not discover any truth that contradicts the reality and authority of the bible. Science without Gods' word is like a fine compass without a true north.To be honest I was unfamiliar with the Quaker concept of inner light. George Fox and the early Quakers preached that the Inner Light was that power of Christ that brings us to direct communion with God. Sitting in silent expectation was all that was needed for contacting the Inner Light and acting God's Will in life. A division occurred in the Society of Friends about 1827, with one group supporting the views of Elias Hicks, who believed that one should follow the inner light. The other group was influenced by the evangelical movement and put great emphasis on belief in the divinity of Christ, the authority of the Scriptures, and the atonement. (I'm with them second group of fellas...) In saying that "evolution bannishes hate", or portraying Christians as silly straw men, you have demonstrated belief in a number of self-evident falsehoods. I don't think your "inner light" is working very well. I'd ask for my money back if I were you.:-PMC

bubbaguy wrote:Evolution does not challenge Christ, but offers hope for a world where hatred is banished. It may not directly, but indirectly it challenges the notion that Adam was the first man, that he was the prototype of all to come. From what I have gathered you don't believe that there was literally a garden of Eden and an Adam, etc.There is a security knowing that God knit me together in my mothers womb, that before I was born all the days alloted to me were written in his book, that he knew me before I was born, that he has a plan and a destiny for my life that isnt random or a result of the survival of the fittest or the strongest. It is based upon his desire and plan for my life.Do you believe that within the human species there are different levels of evolution?

Blessings on all of you this Easter. He is risen.Physically? Which is the greater miracle incarnation or resurrection?

What's the point of your question? I know there is one.The point is that for about 18 months I have been trying to get you to say that God became a man; so far you have resisted all my efforts. You persist in referring to the Holy Spirit as 'it' or 'Holy Spirit' with the definite article. I think your understanding of the Godhead is confused. You see if God became man He could die.In passing, I am curious, what do you make of the 'miracles' that accompanied George Fox?When we 'die' it will only be our bodies that are dead, so the death of Christ follows our pattern there too. But that body was raised, as ours will be. Your belief in the reincarnation, of course, makes a nonsense of this. Which body will be raised? the first, second, third...

(And does it really make any difference if we are held in spiritual limbo or come around again until the end? Seems more profitable for everyone for us to come around again. You could even say a prayer for that poor disturbed boy in Minnesota, as he certainly needs them.)Yes, it makes a difference because the scripture says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Heb 9:27 KJV)"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2Co 5:10 KJV) You will note from the last reference that everyone has just one body and will give account for what he did in it at one judgment.I don't know what the reference to the 'poor disturbed boy in Minnesota refers to'; probably hasn't been reported here.I am glad to hear that you are willing to use the language that 'God became man'. The next question is how? You say the virgin birth is of no consequence to you; how could God become man through a natural birth unless there was a supernatural conception? He was either the Son of God or He was the son of someone else; which Jake?

Many people since Jesus' time have had absolutely no opportunity to know Him or the Holy Spirit. ALl of these people, according to your belief system, will go to hell.When did I ever say anything that made you think that?I also have had personal experiences and read about many other peoples experiences with previous lives. And this is not coming from crackpots, but mainstream reporters and writers of high credibility and integrity.Your inner light appears darker all the time.Now, how God became a man? You tell me, cause its a mystery. And I'm not asking about the conception part, which is physically immaterial as God can do anything. I steer way clear of the virgin part and have no opinion.You resolutely refuse to accept the testimony of the Scriptures. This is not ignorance it is obstinacy. You are lost, Jake, lost in your darkness.

I hate what this tread has turned into... as many others have. I pray this all works for good. Jake may I ask "What preachers on this site do you enjoy listening to?"

Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jake said:"Many people since Jesus' time have had absolutely no opportunity to know Him or the Holy Spirit. ALl of these people, according to your belief system, will go to hell.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ron responded: "When did I ever say anything that made you think that?"This is the logical consequence of your stated religious beliefs. Evangelicalism's entire purpose is to rescue people from hell by relating the saving Grace of Jesus. Presumably those not reached then go to hell. Please quote an example. Your definition of logical and mine parted company a long time ago.Ron states:"Your inner light appears darker all the time."Ron, why are you engaging in ad hominem attacks? Just because we have a difference of opinion?Becauase it is not just a difference of opinion but a matter of life and death.Yes, I believe in evolution. Yes, I believe in reincarnation. AND Yes, I am a Christian as I follow after Christ and claim the forgiveness of sins through his sacrifice.How can you say you follow Christ when you deny His statements and those of those He specifically ordained. The Christ you follow is a figment of your imagination.

The original theme of this thread was the nature of prophecy. The verse I quoted was John 14:29. This theme is developed more strongly in later verses of the same section of scripture; These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. (Joh 16:1-4)Again, the emphasis does not seem to be on the provision of a predictable timetable, but simply that 'when the time shall come...' His followers would know that all was 'in hand'.I personally think that much of the Revelation of this nature. Not primarily a 'timetable of events' to provide intellectual challenges of spotting the 'symbol', but a series of tableaux which would be immediately recognised by Christians who found themselves in 'context'.