Biblical view of speaking life

Hi all,

Haven't been posting for a while, few personal difficulties, but I'm back!

I'm struggling with the speak life teaching, which is also promoted as 'positive confession'... Although most times I've heard scriptures referenced (namely God breathed life into us, ergo we can breathe life to others) and the other one regarding the fig tree...

The understanding I have is we can speak encouragement or can also speak gossip - the desire being encouraging others as part of my Christian life.

Can anyone provide a suitable explanation for this teaching, and possibly why I would feel extremely uncomfortable with the very term 'positive confession'?

Blessings

I'm struggling with the speak life teaching, which is also promoted as 'positive confession'... Although most times I've heard scriptures referenced (namely God breathed life into us, ergo we can breathe life to others) and the other one regarding the fig tree...

The understanding I have is we can speak encouragement or can also speak gossip - the desire being encouraging others as part of my Christian life.

This teaching is the core of the Word of Faith heresy. This belief is also taught by Hindus, New Age Gurus, Buddists and every other cult.

'If you speak positive, and think positive you can change your life'

Notice that our need for Christ is never found in that statement.

The understanding I have is we can speak encouragement or can also speak gossip - the desire being encouraging others as part of my Christian life.

Right there is the demonic hook, it sets Christians up to be controlled because if you point out that the teaching is not Biblical guess what?

You are guilty of 'gossip'! And that's not positive...

Using this teaching, now I'm free to ask people for money, get a divorce and not hear about it, etc. and if you say something about it, you are judgmental and not 'speaking positive'. I've been to this extreme in churches, so I KNOW what I'm talking about!

Like you I was never comfortable with it and it was THE LORD who always gave me a check in my spirit about it.

Are we supposed to go around trashing our brothers and sisters? NO!
Are we supposed to go around trashing the government? NO!

We are commanded to "speak the truth in love" which often times is not very positive sounding, but our joy comes from serving the Lord not being loved by the world.

1thess 5:11 says to encourage one another, and yes, I agree that sometimes saying the truth in love can really hurt. It's happened to me, and I speak from my own personal experiences that whatnwasnsaid caused me to take stock and look at my life.

This causes further concern for me, and expressing this to my brothers and sisters at our fellowship has been met with indifference...

Thanks for the reply, it was most helpful.

richrock: learjet may disagree with me on this one, but what some in the WOF movement have sometimes taken to an extreme is nothing more than letting the words of your mouth be in agreement with the word of God.

Positive confession does not make things happen as if by some kind of magic. But when I am faced with any situation of life, I chose to believe and speak over that situation only what the word of God says about it, rather than what my flesh my feel or my mind may reason about it.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

If it is true that the words of God are my bread, then I should fill my mouth continually with that bread.

When I speak only what the word of God has to say about a battle, I must recall His word, process His word, speak His word, hear His word, and as a result my faith is increased as I am building myself up. Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word.

What if a group of believers have taken a truth to an extreme and sometimes perverted it? Does that then make the legitimate truth become heresy? You get the idea.

If I am faced with a battle, I chose to say only that which God says. And believe me, the temptation to speak out of my emotion or my carnal mind is ever present and I often find a lot of carnal thinking coming from my mouth before I check myself and intentionally change my speech.

I guess it is positive confession in that I am confessing the word of God in the situation, and that is definitely a positive thing to confess as contrasted with speaking the things of the flesh about the situation.

Psa 19:14. David said, "Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer." I wonder, what could be more acceptable in the sight of God than to speak His word over each and every circumstance of life? There is power in the word of God, both to change the circumstance as well as to increase my faith.

It is simply a choice that I make. The only other option is to gripe and complain or to keep my mouth shut.

twayneb wrote:

"I guess it is positive confession in that I am confessing the word of God in the situation, and that is definitely a positive thing to confess as contrasted with speaking the things of the flesh about the situation."

Well said.. to me "positive confession" is simply leveraging faith rather than unbelief.

No, "positive confession" meaning tricking yourself into believing something is true that isn't will never change anything. But FAITH changes things.

It is very difficult to have faith if we are negative thinkers. If we believe that God can do anything, but just doesn't do very much, especially for me, how can we have faith?

Why did Jesus have such faith? Because He knew exactly what the Father is like and spoke and lived it forth.

by richrock on 2012/7/24 6:06:38

Hi all,

Haven't been posting for a while, few personal difficulties, but I'm back!

I'm struggling with the speak life teaching, which is also promoted as 'positive confession'... Although most times I've heard scriptures referenced (namely God breathed life into us, ergo we can breathe life to others) and the other one regarding the fig tree...

The understanding I have is we can speak encouragement or can also speak gossip - the desire being encouraging others as part of my Christian life.

Can anyone provide a suitable explanation for this teaching, and possibly why I would feel extremely uncomfortable with the very term 'positive confession'?

Blessings
[\\quote]

Never heard of this speak life thing but if it is the positive confession thing then it all depends. I have a phrase that goes like this 'You can be positive and be positively ridiculous with it' in other words, you can say things positive and be out of reality of it just for the sake of not being negative.

My place of work, there was a time that whenever there was a problem it was never addressed as a problem. It was addressed as an opportunity. I suppose it was repackaged that way in order to put a positive spin on it in order so that the ones dealing with it saw it has a learning experience rather than an 'oh man!'.

I had a friend who was in the positive confession business and Word of faith movement. She would speak positive things and would rebuke you for saying negative things. Needless to say we did but heads when I would confront her on her nonsense. She even did her best to follow nutritional guidelines to keep her body healthy. At age 42 she was hit with cervical cancer and it eventually went to her lungs. She refused to go to the hospital because of her positive confession. When that didn't seem to work she decided to go to the doctor but it was too late to do anything. She died within a year. I have often wondered if she realized her folly after she died.

In the end, being positive is a great trait. To turn a negative around to a positive outlook is always a great trait and can be infectious. I think that when the confession begins to deny reality then a person ends up with a problem. Make any sense?

John

hi, if you want to be miserable and do a lousy job:go around and speak negative all the time. noone wioll want to be around you. we serve a positive God.i have seen people in the business world not promoted because of a negative attitude. my take on wof is to eat the fish and spit out the bones.look what God did for the critic of david dancing before the Lord.negativity is a curse.jimp

Hi! 'RichRock'

Please, I would like to ask the following questions of everyone wrestling with this kinna' question:

Would any one say that Noah was drawing on an ability of 'positive thinking' when he "prepared an ark"?
Was Abraham filled with 'positive thinking' when he "went out, not knowing whither he went", and when he "looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God?"
And, what about Sarah? Was she merely a positive thinker too when "she judged him [God] faithful who had promised"?

'Positive Thinking' is not a spiritual ability; it's merely a natural ability. Both sinner and saint have a share of 'positive thinking' to one degree or another.

'Positive Thinking' is the elementary ability of every natural man to confess the eternal POSTURE of God towards His creation: "He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous".

There have always been those who eagerly chase after this inborn 'secret' behind creation. Not surprisingly, they've even invented formulas which supposedly can draw this posture of God nearer to them; eg: the ideas behind the 'Secret' movie and the concepts behind 'Law of Attraction'.

The ability of positive thinking is related to the visible world. For instance: everyone appeared at their workplace today while positively expressing a belief in their employer's ability to pay them their deserved wages at the end of the week.
But faith is something completely different.
Faith is related to the unseen/invisible world. For instance: everyone who performs righteous deeds today in the Name of Jesus and His kingdom are expressing faith that the act of "laying up treasures in heaven" (in the unseen world) will surely be rewarded by God.

While positive thinking remains totally directed at the POSTURE of God towards His natural creation, faith is directed at the eternal PURPOSES of God towards His spiritual creation; concerning works of His re-creation.

"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also".

As Christians, we should have already easily known this difference between positive thinking and faith because Hebrews clearly states that faith is "the evidence of things NOT SEEN".

When we desire to grasp something for ourselves from out of this visible natural world, the ability of positive thinking might well be sufficient. But when we wish to grasp something for ourselves from out of the invisible world, only FAITH can obtain it for us.

When one is laying up treasures on the earth, (a need for a newer car or a better job, ect ... ) this requires positive thinking.
When one is laying up treasures in unseen heaven, (righteous deeds), or when seeking after treasures of the unseen heaven, (spiritual gifts and maturity), this requires faith.

"Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof.

Hi! 'Jimp'

Who are these people who (as you say) "want to be miserable and do a lousy job; go around and speak negative all the time?"
A purely positive thinker would rightly say that such people are 'negative thinkers'.
But the faith of a man of God would say that the thoughts of these 'negative' people are being influenced by powers of darkness.
Why is this?
Because the man of God is equipped to see behind the visible and declare "the evidence of things unseen" ... namely that the man's expressed negativity has its origin from out of the unseen/invisible realm of darkness.

Hi! 'TMK'

You wrote: ""positive confession" is simply leveraging faith rather than unbelief".

We know that the command is to "Seek first the Kingdom of Heaven" and the accompanying assurance is that all our natural needs will be met because the position of God remains steadfastly positive to every living thing on the earth. It "rains on the just as well as the unjust".
Positive confession does not "leverage faith" as you say. Quite the contrary, it risks supplanting faith!

The ability of faith was given to the godly man to enable him to perceive the "evidence of things unseen"; the things which are unseen concerning the kingdom.
This is why it says that it was by FAITH that Abraham saw the "evidence of things unseen" and having seen such invisible things, he began to yearn for the day that the "city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker God", would become visible in and through God's people.

No amount of positive thinking could have revealed the "evidence of things unseen" to Abraham and a host of other faithful saints who followed after him.

Hi! "Twayneb'

Maybe you're needing to clarify some of your doctrinal vocabulary a bit; I think you might find it useful to clarify some issues about faith.

Every living creature on the earth possesses the ability to exercise positive thinking; this ability forms part of his intrinsic makeup. Even from a very early age, children display this ability remarkably well.

But we should not mistake our inherent ability to judge something positively or negatively as being equal to having faith. Faith and positive thinking are completely separate and distinct abilities and which function differently too.

The thoughts of God (His Word) were expressed in faith and, as such, the evidence of their ongoing accomplishing can only be perceived through faith.

What your doctrinal vocabulary seems to be stumbling over is the fact that God Himself functions with faith.
The Scripture repeatedly says, "The just shall live by faith".
And what faith would that be?
Like Paul, our confession is: "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God".
Did you notice the words: FAITH OF THE SON?
And this verse too, "That which is through the faith of Christ".
Did you notice the words FAITH OF CHRIST?

It has me asking the question of Romans 3:3: "Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"
Did you notice above the words FAITH OF GOD here too?
Anyways, we should all move beyond our feeble vocabulary and simply state it the way it is: God has Faith!
Our Christian life stands on God's faith; what God's faith had declared about us and of His eternal plans and intents for us.

Leave the positive thinking for the empty of heart and those ignorant of God's faith.
We wish to march on to victory and triumph over every adversity confessing God's faith.

I'm still confused somewhat. I wish I could transcribe what I heard last week from our pastor, that might shed some light on things.

Essentially, it boils down to speaking blessing on our lives in all areas, spiritual, financial, work, etc.

I just can't reconcile it compared to the teachings of Jesus and Paul, to either forsake the things on the world, even my own life, and also like Paul to be content regardless of situation...

We are all capable in our fallen state as well as saved state to praise others. I'm specifically talking about a pastor encouraging us to speak life into whatever situation we are in (and prayer was not mentioned -I'd just pray anyway than go around saying ' I will get that new motorbike' etc)

Hi! 'RichRock'

I'm sorry to hear that you remain "still confused somewhat".
All of us here can only give you thoughts to ponder about and investigate. After that, it is only God Himself who can bring you into a better understanding of the words given.
I also notice from your further explanation here, that your church is involved with something akin to what might be described as "speaking into existence". This has also been taught under the guise of "the tongue as a creative force".

The problem with such ideas as these you describe is that they are very much indistinguishable from the truth ... very clever counterfeits.

You said, "I just can't reconcile it compared to the teachings of Jesus and Paul". Well, that's an excellent beginning.
You see, 'RichRock'? You'll never ever be able to reconcile a lie to the truth. Unless, of course, you choose to dismiss the early warning signs which the Spirit is now giving you.
You are being equipped to discern between good and evil. There are times when God has the mind to let you work things out from what you have already learned from Him. This is a normal learning curve on your path to spiritual maturity.
I hope you didn't think that God was going to teach you something and not put you in a place to test your working knowledge of it through experience. Such does not happen.

Blayne,

Thank you brother for your writings on SI. I have been meaning to tell you that I have been blessed by many of your posts. But this thread is the best of them all!

I love the way you have explained "positive thinking" vs "true biblical faith" and I just had to let you know this.

I agree 100%, and I also believe that Wayne also believes in the difference even though he didn't articulate it the way you did. Thank you for using your gift from God to bless others, I am learning more to appreciate others in the body of Christ, even though we all don't get it right, all the time.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

Maybe you're needing to clarify some of your doctrinal vocabulary a bit; I you'd find it useful clarify some issues about faith.

Every living creature on the earth possesses the ability to exercise positive thinking; this ability forms part of his intrinsic makeup. Even from a very early age, children display this ability remarkably well.

But we should not mistake our inherent ability to judge something positively or negatively as being equal to having faith. Faith and positive thinking are completely separate and distinct abilities and which function differently too.

The thoughts of God (His Word) were expressed in faith and, as such, the evidence of their ongoing accomplishing can only be perceived through faith.

Blayne: I am not speaking at all of positive thinking. I am talking about speaking the word of God over each and every situation in our lives. My point is that we sometimes take a term such as "positive confession", relate it to a particular movement, WOF for example, and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

When we refuse to speak anything but the word of God in a given situation, we bring our own mind, will, and emotions into agreement with what God has to say in the matter. This is an act of faith, and it also reinforces the word of God in us. We know that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. The word of God brings faith. It is the foundation on which our faith rests. So, if I am faced with a battle, I get into the word, find out what it has to say, and refuse to speak anything else. This is true Biblical positive confession.

That response was such a blessing - I know I'll never reconcile it, I know it is indeed a lie.

In order to enlighten people - I became a Christian some 16 years ago, sat under charismatic teaching which almost, but never quite fed enough spiritually. Some months ago I was truly saved, the awareness of sin, what Christ had done on the cross so strong I wept for days.
Since then several things I used to do as have been removed completely, my spiritual life has transformed from what God could do for me into how can I seek and serve Him... Amongst many other things.

Church life, sadly, has become difficult because of the awareness of this teaching, reinforced frequently now. Praise God for this site, among others that edify the body with the word of God, the good news of the gospel and people like yourselves able to help me out.

[by richrock on 2012/7/25 11:49:19
We are all capable in our fallen state as well as saved state to praise others. I'm specifically talking about a pastor encouraging us to speak life into whatever situation we are in (and prayer was not mentioned -I'd just pray anyway than go around saying ' I will get that new motorbike' etc)]

For me personally, I would run from this church if that's what he's teaching.

For you to discern when its a very clever counterfeit lie and when its the truth is to really seek God earnestly. Then He will start teaching and revealing to you and give you more discernment.

Hi! 'Twayneb'

Thank you for your reply. I've read it intently and with much interest.

I was particularly struck by your saying: "I am talking about speaking the word of God over each and every situation in our lives".

This is quite a telling statement which you've made here.
Frankly, God doesn't need any help from you nor anyone else to have His word accomplish that which it has set out to perform.
So, your choosing to "speak the Word of God over every situation" is a rather redundant exercise.
If you should wish to speak anything about the Word of God, it should about be your faithful obedience; your faithful cooperation with it.

Yes, a Christian might wish to speak about His faith in the eternal power of the Word; much in the same manner as Mary saying "Be it unto me according to thy word".
But clearly, the extent of Mary's participation with the Word was limited to her voluntary cooperation with it.

I honestly don't mean to offend you, 'Twayneb', but these sort of ideas find their origins in mysticism or the chantings of Buddhism.

You continued adding: "When we refuse to speak anything but the word of God in a given situation, we bring our own mind, will, and emotions into agreement with what God has to say in the matter. This is an act of faith, and it also reinforces the word of God in us".

Do you honestly think that God needs you to "come into agreement" with His word?
Again you indicate yourself as desiring to be more than a cooperator with the Word of God. You insist that the power of the Word to accomplish is somehow dependent on your mind, will and emotions.
This is a complete fallacy.

Then you stated, "The word of God brings faith".
The Bible doesn't say that "the Word of God brings faith".
No, the Word of God initiates faith; it solicits your faithful cooperation; it invites your voluntary obedience.

Now, 'Twayneb', I'm not suspecting that you're some weird heretic 'er anything like that. It's just that you've got some doctrinal vocabulary issues and these are interfering with the truth of the gospel.

Hi! 'RichRock'

I'm so pleased to read what you have shared concerning your Christian journey. I'm very encouraged by it.

Actually, I myself keep coming back here for very selfish reasons; to be blessed by reading about the experiences and probing questions that some express here.

I'm much more easily social in MouseLand; simply because I've never successfully learned the inz-an-outz of social etiquette in the real world ... and, I've kinna' shy too.

But in MouseLand, I feel very comfortable because everyone is compelled to value the inward appearance of a person and the treasures therein. In the real world, the integrity of a person can be so often judged wrongly by their outward appearance or negated by their lack of excellent speech.

[by Blayne on 2012/7/25 16:08:35
..Actually, I myself keep coming back here for very selfish reasons; to be blessed by reading about the experiences and probing questions that some express here]

Blayne,
don't you dare leave this forum for the forseeabl future. Don't you know by now how blessed your posts are for the members here. I'm pretty sure God wants you to stay in this forum for the time being.

Hi! 'Rbanks'

Thanks for your very kind words.

Yuh see? It's been more than 40 years since I first heard the Gospel of Repentance. (Hebrews 6:1-3). I muddled around for the vast majority of those years memorizing and learning this-an-that doctrinal vocabulary and never really perceiving what Hebrews 6:9 was meaning to say.

Believe me! I have multiple shelves of books and commentaries as witness to those wearisome years. I'm not at all saying these years were wasted; they certainly were not. But in many respects, they could have been so much more fruitful had I not been so preoccupied with futile pursuits and misconstrued ideas.

But when I stumbled (for lack of a better word) into the Gospel of the Kingdom, everything radically changed for me. My Christian horizons expanded astonishingly.
This was when I first was able to fathom what faith truly was; and which enabled me to attempt and describe it here as I did today.

I think the church needs to undergo an immense catharsis and purging before it will even begin to comprehend the Gospel of Jesus. Presently, it is only able to feed the lost and wounded those crumbs from the table of it's own famine and emptiness.

We have the prophesy, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come". A day is coming when those who are laying down at the roadside of their anguished lives will hear something more than the gospel of John the Baptist and be healed and restored.

Actually, this prophesy has already arrived and is unfolding in many lives in this day and hour. Many have heard the Gospel of the Kingdom and have been enabled to "walk in newness of life" and to "serve Him in newness of spirit". They have learned the value of setting their "mind on things above" and testify of being seated "in heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

Blayne, do you see faith in Peters Gospel to the circumcission the same as Paul's Gospel to the uncircumcission? The Kingdom of God to the Jew and the Kingdom of God to the Gentile. "The Jew by faith, the Gentile through faith? "By faith", is this the earthly faith outside of the Faith of the Son of God who through the faith of the Son of God, through the faith of Christ the born again are already seated in the heavenly kingdom in Christ Jesus, by His Spirit that is in me?

I understand this scripture; Galatians 3:26-29 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Promise being the Seed, Christ.

"By faith" and "through faith", have always been a stumbling block for me, will maybe not stumbling but not a complete understanding.

What is your understanding of the Kingdom of God? In its simplest form I see it to be "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip

I know Blayne needs no defending from me, but I believe this statement is wrong.

Quote: """You've twisted his words and you've twisted Scripture.
Faith 'Does' come by hearing The Word of GOD!"""

Faith comes from God, hearing the Word only directs the faith God has sent to those He has given ears to hear.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

"the measure", should read "a measure".

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3358. metron
Search for G3358 in KJVSL
metron metron met'-ron
an apparently primary word; a measure ("metre"), literally or figuratively; by implication, a limited portion (degree):-- measure.

If hearing the Word from man has power over the Faith of God sent to be able to hear the Word and understand the will of God, then all Israel should have been saved a long time ago.

Ro 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Ro 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Yet there is a remnant of whom God's faith has saved them.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi! 'Jesus-Is-God'

I apologize. Sincerely so!
My intent was not to "twist his words" as you say nor to twist the Scripture.
I don't have an agenda that I'm aware of. Maybe you would be kind enough to inform me what you suspect my supposed agenda might be.

Ummm, I would have to agree with you that I hardly know any background or history of the people who participate in here. Not only that, I have such a pathetic remembering of NickNames, that I'm confused about identities at the best of times.

I have wholeheartedly agreed with your position stating, "Faith DOES come by hearing of the Word of God" since my being first introduced to the Gospel. After all, it's boldly stated as such "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", (Romans 10:17).
So, perhaps we can at least put that accusation to sleep between us.

So, the question remains:
What does it mean when the Scripture says, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"?

Faith is a faculty of the spirit which enables a person to grasp and to hold on to things which are not discernible to the natural senses. It comes into action when a person hears or reads something. The more we hear and read, the more we can believe. That is, faith attaches itself to the word, which is an expression of a thought. It can grasp something from both the future and/or the past.

If a person desires to rise above the natural life and take his place in the "heavenly places in Christ Jesus", he can only achieve this by his faith. It is by hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ that the truths and the situation in the unseen world are revealed to him. This is why it is pointedly said that "Faith is the evidence of thing unseen".

In His conversation with a Samaritan woman, Jesus revealed that God is spirit. It can, therefore, also be said of God that He has faith. To Him the things that have yet to happen are as certain as if they had already happened. We can say that God has great faith in Himself and in His creation. He has absolute certainty that: "What I do is good and what 1 have resolved to do will come to pass".

When things went wrong at the Fall, God did not panic or lose His trust in man. Even though man was attacked, maimed, humiliated and oppressed under the regime of the Devil, it is still remained possible for him to recover and remain a fitting partner for God. This is because God had built into His creation the possibility of restoration and renewal and the means for bringing this about. And therein is the meaning behind the Scripture saying, "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world", (Rev 13:8).

It is also said of Satan and his evil angels that they too have faith. The Devil has faith in himself and in his destructive and degrading work. He is quite certain in his belief that nothing good can now come of man. He has no confidence in him whatsoever and has completely dismissed the possibility of him as a king and future ruler over all the works of God's hands. That is why we are witnessing the terrible battle between God and the evil one. It is a battle of faith with very mankind at stake. It is Spirit opposing spirit and positive faith opposing negative faith.

The Devil attacks God on the basis of His faith in man. This is what the entire battle is about. The evil one does not want man to one day sit on God's throne with Him and be exalted above all creatures, including all "rule and authority and power and dominion" in the heavenly places. The origin of this devilish hostility towards man is in his own desire to take the place which God has allocated for us.

Back in the Old Testament we read that God had unlimited confidence in His servant Job. He testified of him that no one on earth was as blameless and upright as he or had such an aversion to doing evil. Satan opposed this positive faith with his own negative faith and said: "Just let him get into difficulties then You will see how fast he will forsake You". The Devil wanted to make God's faith ineffective and therefore put it to shame. The evil one is always busy doing this. It is not for nothing that the Devil is called the "accuser of the brethren".

Nevertheless, God has a tremendous faith in man. As early as the Fall this trust was clearly evident when God said to the serpent, (which was an image of the Devil), "I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel", (Gen 3:15). God has never doubted the fulfilment of this. The head of the serpent will be crushed by man. The Apostle Paul wrote so encouragingly that "the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet", (Rom 16:20).

The Devil, however, has been a heel-biter throughout all ages; he constantly interferes with man's progress and development. Regardless, in the end, the faith that God has in man will triumph.
Therefore, we gladly testify that God is pleased with man and God has faith in man.

God's faith became clear the moment He entrusted His restoration plan, which includes "all things", to Jesus Christ. Jesus had taken over God's faith in His creation because He thought and spoke in the same way as His Heavenly Father did. Jesus received all the fulness of God, embracing His wisdom, power and faith. He is even called the Pioneer and Perfecter of our faith and, because He is the expression of God's thoughts, He is also called the "Word of God".

Jesus believed so firmly in the future glory of man that He "for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame", (Heb 12:2). In the terrible circumstances during the "hour of darkness", Jesus expressed His unshakeable faith in the victory of man before the High Priest, Caiaphas when He said: "But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of Heaven", (Matt 26:64).

Because of Jesus' faith in a future restoration, He gave Himself as a ransom for all peoples of all places and all times and this ransom was His perfect life. Through sin man had fallen into slavery to Satan. He was under the occupying power of the realm of darkness or, after death, in Hades (the kingdom of the dead).

After the Fall, none of mankind was in a position to share God's throne nor were they fit for their heavenly calling. Yet, the Heavenly Father kept His faith in man. He did not abandon them to their wrathful yokes but instead He made the Devil an offer. God provided for Himself to use an image, a burnt offering, which He committed to the flames, that is to the evil spirits, (Gen 22:8). In the visible world God delivered His Son into the hands of murderers and, in the unseen world, to the evil spirits.

God did this in order to buy back mankind; one perfect human being in the place of all corrupted, damaged and injured people. He exchanged, as it were, one gold coin for many dirty pennies, and that is why in the prayers of the saints a new song is heard: "For Thou wast slain and by Thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation", (Rev 5:9).

The Devil believed that while Jesus was on the cross He would succumb under the onslaught of the demons. At that moment our Lord was in the same position as Adam was before the Fall, that is, without sin and without the Holy Spirit.

However, Jesus had within Himself the faith of God. That is why He could pray for His enemies because they did not know that they were being driven by evil spirits. Through His faith Jesus triumphed and so He could remain standing, a perfect, spiritual man right up to death, even death on a cross. The negative faith of the Devil was confounded. After Jesus had fought the fight and had "finished" everything, He descended once more united with the Holy Spirit as victor into Hades. From then on, all people of all times could be saved by their faith in God's restoration plan.

When the faith of God is in us we can overcome the evil world. Paul wrote that once he was a blasphemer, a persecutor of the Church and a tyrant. Jesus, however, had faith in this fanatic and then the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus also entered Paul, (1Tim 1:14). Jesus' faith in us is so great that He entrusts the restoration of the whole of creation to us. In Revelation 2:13, the Lord says: "You did not deny MY faith".

So, we do not want to assume the negative faith of the Devil which says: "Nothing will come of you, you are too bad, too sick, too damaged and too injured". We want to assume the faith of God who says: "I see in you a king and a priest; you belong to a holy nation".

In Habakkuk 2:4 it says: "The righteous, says God, shall live by MY faith". Paul wrote in Galatians 2:20, "and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God". Mark 11:22 says: "Have the faith OF God". For those who have this faith OF God, Mark 11:23 becomes true to them, "Whoever says to this mountain (symbol of the terrible power of darkness), 'Be taken up and cast into the sea' (symbol of Hades) what he says will come to pass".

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen", (Heb 11:1). When Jesus asks the question (in Luke 18:8), "Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will He find (the) faith on earth?". We want to readily answer, "Yes, Lord, we confess with the Apostle Paul that 'the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God' who have made the faith in the restoration their own, (Rom 8:19). Just like Paul, we too want to fight the good fight and keep the faith, (2Tim 4:7). This keeps our hope alive.

The book of Revelation describes the last battle of the war in the Heavenly Places, which will take place in the heavenly Armageddon. Why will the Anti-Christ lose the war there? Because the sons of God possess the same faith as their Lord Jesus had on the cross of Calvary.

So never lose faith in man and especially not in those who live close to you. Never say, "Nothing will come of this child, this woman, or this man", for that is how the Devil thinks. All things are possible for those who keep the faith of Jesus and put it into practice.

I have wholeheartedly agreed with your position stating, "Faith DOES come by hearing of the Word of God" since my being first introduced to the Gospel. After all, it's boldly stated as such "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", (Romans 10:17).
So, perhaps we can at least put that accusation to sleep between us.

So, the question remains:
What does it mean when the Scripture says, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"?

Faith is a faculty of the spirit which enables a person to grasp and to hold on to things which are not discernible to the natural senses. It comes into action when a person hears or reads something. The more we hear and read, the more we can believe. That is, faith attaches itself to the word, which is an expression of a thought. It can grasp something from both the future and/or the past.

If a person desires to rise above the natural life and take his place in the "heavenly places in Christ Jesus", he can only achieve this by his faith. It is by hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ that the truths and the situation in the unseen world are revealed to him. This is why it is pointedly said that "Faith is the evidence of thing unseen".

Blayne: My point exactly, although probably put into better words. The more we hear and read, the more we can believe. So refusing to speak anything but the word of God when in the circumstances of life means that we must read, speak, and hear, and speak, and hear the word of God. As a result, our faith increases. We come to a place where what is true in the spiritual realm, what God says about the matter, becomes more real to us than the physical evidence that is so blatantly staring us in the face. Our faith in the unseen grows stronger and stronger. That is why we should speak the word of God over the matter rather than what our own wisdom or carnal reaction to the situation would warrant. What you have said is exactly what I was trying to get across. I am not sure if this is happening, but don't let bias against a term like "positive confession" cause you to read into what I am saying.

Another definition of faith is simply our positive response to that which is already true in the spirit, to that which God has already provided us through Christ. It is vital that we agree with our mouth with what God says about the matter.

Allow a practical example. Suppose I am in need of healing in my physical body. I know that God has provided healing through the broken body of Christ. Now suppose that the sickness is such that the doctor's prognosis is dim. I have a decision to make. I know that I am going to be talking about my circumstances. I am human and it is hard to keep my mouth shut. Even if I do not utter words with my voice, I am going to be talking to myself in my own mind for sure. So what do I say? If I am reading the word of God in an attempt to build my faith, but if I am continually saying to myself and to others, "Well, it looks like I am not going to make it. I have such and so wrong with me. You know, only 10% of people with my sickness live over a year, etc. etc. etc.", then I am fighting against myself and against all of my efforts to build my faith through the word of God. But if I say, "Sure, I am sick, but the word of God says, 'surely He has born by sicknesses and carried by diseases', and also,'by His stripes I was healed', then I am agreeing with my words with what the word of God says. I reinforce the word of God that I am reading and hearing, and as I speak it, I hear it all over again. The truth of the word then begins to root itself ever more deeply in my heart and mind and my faith increases.

edit to add: So I have a choice to make. I can work against myself, or I can agree with God and allow His word to have first place in my heart, mind, and mouth. I think it is vitally important what words we allow to proceed from our mouths. Some may say, "but your words reveal what is in your heart." True. But your words can also effect what is in your heart.

This is not anything even romotely related to the chanting of montras, Buhdism, mysticism, or the like. It is simply disciplining my flesh by fasting carnality and letting the words of my mouth be only that which edifies, builds up, and agrees with what God already says about the matter.

hi, once again, faith is:hearing a directive word from God(build an ark in an arid place)believing this word, obeying this word to the saving of your family.heb.11(the faith chapter) gives examples of people with biblical faith . none were reading the Bible and all heard the voice of the Lord. you can hear the voice of the Lord through the reading of the bible ,but God has to reveal it to you by that quickening that this is direction to yoou personnally.i heard the gospel for a year before i Heard the gospel directed to me to make a move to obey and receive.(faith)jimp

Hi! 'Twayneb'

Oh, I see what you were meaning to say now; at least I think that I do. (The last time I presumed such a thing, I got myself blasted an' so I'm none to eager to openly assume such a thing too quickly). :)

Oh, darn! I jus' know I gonna' be sounding like a nit-picker again ... I'm sorry. You see?, 'Twayneb', I can be exceedingly analytic about Scripture verses and I'm always having to be apologetic an' careful about pushing people into a miserable boredom.

You wrote: "The more we hear and read, the more we can believe".
I'm not saying you are wrong about this. I'm only saying that I might have stated this differently, "The more we hear and read, the more our faith is exercised".

"So refusing to speak anything but the word of God when in the circumstances of life means that we must read, speak, and hear, and speak, and hear the word of God".
Again, I might have rendered this as, "I choose to always believe what God's faith declares concerning a situation".

"As a result, our faith increases".
I might have said this as, "As a result, our increasing knowledge of God's faith over the situation, the intensity of our own faith increases".

"We come to a place where what is true in the spiritual realm, what God says about the matter, becomes more real to us than the physical evidence that is so blatantly staring us in the face".
I might have stated it as, "We come to a place where it is faith against faith; what God's faith says of the situation and what Devil faith is saying".

"Our faith in the unseen grows stronger and stronger".
Here is where we might differ a bit.
Since you are engaged in a battle against unseen powers originating in the unseen world, it's wouldn't be proper for you to say that "Our faith in the unseen grows stronger and stronger". It would be better for you to have said, "Our faith against the visible manifestation of the powers of darkness in my situation enables me to overcome the faith of the enemy and to emerge triumphant in the situation".

"That is why we should speak the word of God over the matter rather than what our own wisdom or carnal reaction to the situation would warrant".
Again, we might differ here again.
You are speaking the Word of God against the powers and principalities in heavenly places; against those enemies of both God and man who are unlawfully affecting your situation.
Well, to invite you into an even deeper truth:
You are disarming the enemy! You are commanding the powers to enter Hades where they remain inactive.
This is what Jesus did at Gadarenes.
First we read that the evil powers "cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not".
The demons knew that Jesus held the keys of Hades and that He possessed the power to expel them to that spiritual dungeon. This is why they pleaded with Him not to send them there early because a demon's torment is inactivity; a paralysis in the visible world.
So, Jesus gave consent to for them to enter the swine which then subsequently leaped into the sea.
(That's the short explanation of something you might want to study further on your own).

So, what I have been trying to say throughout this Thread is that faith is the ability for the man of God to function in the unseen world; faith always strives to discern the "evidence of things unseen".
Faith is not a proper function with which to focus on a visible situation and/or a visible foe. Faith is always directed to the dimension from where your heavenly citizenship is ... from out of where you live and have your being.
This is precisely the truth behind the narrative of Matt 8:8, "The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel".

Anyways, nice discussing things with you.
I hope what we have discussed together has been helpful.

Hi! 'Christinyou'

To tell you duh truth, I'm not so outtah-duh-flesh not to have been sincerely grateful to read your previous comment saying, "I know Blayne needs no defending from me, but I believe this statement is wrong".
I honestly try not to rudely step on toes here. However, if a recent E-Mail from the SI Moderator (July 8th) is any idication, I can't say that I've always been successful.

Anyways, 'Christinyou', you asked, "Do you see faith in Peters Gospel to the circumcision the same as Paul's Gospel to the uncircumcised? The Kingdom of God to the Jew and the Kingdom of God to the Gentile. "The Jew by faith, the Gentile through faith?"

Yuh wanna' know sumthin'?
I've never thought of faith in such a manner. So, I'm unable to offer you any thing of an answer. Yet, it is an intriguing question. Perhaps, there may be someone else participating here who might be more suitable to be asking.

Neither am I familiar with the term "earthly faith" which you used.
To my mind, there does not exist an "earthly faith". However, I'm open to the possibility of there being an earthly HOPE; "the substance of things hoped for". But this would be only a speculative idea by me at this point.

And I might venture to answer your additional idea about "For yer are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ" by again speculating that perhaps we might be able to say that it is the sons of God (those who have been baptized in the Spirit) are enabled to live by the faith OF Jesus.

But I haven't really studied the particular Scriptures sufficiently to have a valid opinion of your observations. Sorry 'bout that.

Yes, it is true that no one remains identified as Jew nor Greek ect in the Kingdom of Heaven. This is because such distinguishing is related to the visible world only. In the spiritual world, everyone is distinguished or measured primarily by stature. This is in keeping with "unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ". In addition, the Bible speaks about our NOW having a spiritual body; "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body".

You mentioned yur wrestling with the difference between "by faith" and "through faith".
Wow! 'ChristInMe', yer beginning to sound as analytic as I am; an' that might be a very bad sign. :)
I honestly cannot say if there is any difference. I've haven't really thought about this sortta' possibility.

But here is a very exciting question you brought:
"What is your understanding of the Kingdom of God? In its simplest form I see it to be "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
Where do I begin?
When an architect designs a building, he first creates a scale model and then proceeds to build the structure itself. But God did just the opposite! God created the building first (heaven) and then created the model (earth).
Everthing visible is an image of the invisible. Paul confirmed this fact by saying, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made".

For example, the visible sun is an image of the invisible God; the moon an image of Jesus who reflects the glory (light) of the sun and which shines in the darkness.
The words of Psalm 84:11 apply: "For the Lord is a sun". Also, He is "the dayspring from on high", (Luke 1:78).
About Jesus, it says: "The light shines in the darkness", which therefore is a picture of the moon. Also including, "He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature", (Heb 1:3).

Thus, we are able to better grasp the meaning about Rev 8:12 where is speaks about "the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise".

When God made His promise to Noah about the existence of the earth, the Lord said to Himself: "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done. While the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease", (Gen 8:21-22). The flood had not altered people's hearts. In the latter days, therefore, God will use a totally different way to lead the faithful church to her goal and to destroy the wicked. That which is holy will become holier still, and when the evil powers cover the earth as a flood, that which is dirty will become dirtier still.
This is why all this nonsensical chatter about natural catastrophes about to attack the character of earthly existence in the endtime are erroneous. If a third part of the sun were actually darkened enormous changes would occur in seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night.

Revelation is primarily about "things unseen"; about the world of the spirits. On the day of wrath, the sun of righteousness is darkened. But on the other hand, when the fulfillment of the promises of salvation for Zion begins, the light of the heavenly bodies increases.

So we have to be careful about interpreting the unseen spiritual things with an unrenewed mind; a mind which is not "set on things above". What should we say about this verse in Isaiah, "The light of the moon will be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun will be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day when the Lord binds up the hurt of his people and heals the wounds inflicted by his blows"?
A literal fulfillment of this promise would have disastrous results for the earth! The proper interpretation should be clear. The time will have come when hardly anyone can be saved. Because of the enormous apostasy, God can only reach the unfaithful church with great difficulty. People no longer believe the Word of God and, through lack of faith, the lamp is extinguished at midnight, just as was the case of the foolish maidens.

The result is that the angels (the stars of Rev 8:12) can no longer do their work of serving mankind. Unbelief and sin interfere against their behaving as helpers of man. Isaiah 59:1-2 draws a poignant picture of this situation: "Behold, the hand of the Lord is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you so that He does not hear". The powers of darkness are between God and man and this darkens the light of the sun.
But for the faithful true church which is delivered from the powers of darkness, the sun of righteousness will shine even more brightly than ever before.

So, are you still hanging on with me 'ChristInYou'? You're beginning to catch a glimpse of the Gospel OF Jesus ... not merely the Gospel ABOUT Jesus. AKA: the Gospel of the Kingdom.

I could write more about the Gospel of the Kingdom if you wish by a follow-up --- jus' ask, I'd be happy to do so.
Or, I can also direct you to some good literature concerning similar ideas.

Hi! 'Jesus-Is-God'

Ummm, I really don't have any incentive to argue or debate anything.
My motto is always this:
Are you happy and content with what you have?
Then, PLEASE, don't let me nor anyone else steal it away from you.
I'm only here to share thoughts and ideas. I don't pretend to be some infallible Pope 'er anything.
You and I may not always find agreement about things, but that's jus' fine ... at least by me.
I'm here for a good time ... not a long time. :)

Jesus is God: Who is the Word of Faith, the Logos by His Faith are we in Him. No words of man can bring this faith.
This faith sustained by the Holy Spirit Parakleet Teacher of the living Logos of God, not by man.

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this : The seed is the word of God .

Also the living logos, Word born again in us, the incorruptable Seed of the Father. 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word (living Logos)of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

John 1:1-13 In the beginning was the Word, (living logos) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This seed is much more than just the written word which I see you agree that there is the living Word, Jesus Christ Himself and the written word put in the book to confirm the living word of Jesus Christ given to te Holy Spiit by Jesus CHrist Himself to give to us that we might know the things of Jesus Christ and all that He says to the Holy
Spirit to give us the things we cannot understand, even Jesus speaks to the Holy Spirit and tells Him what to speak and none of the Holy spirit Himself, this is the Sword of the of the Spirit word that pireces to the dividing of the soul and spirit, which is soul/mind/entelect divided from the Spirit of Christ that now is our Spirit. Of which if we don't have the Spirit of Christ in us we are none of His. Then to the bones and marrow, The body with out blood as the same resurrected body of Christ living forever in the Fathers House always learning God throughout all eternity.

So faith comes hearing and hearing by WHO? Ohly the Holy Spirit can give faith to have revelation of the Word of God. Man cannot get revelation from the written word unless the Living Word sends the Parakleetos to reveal the word of faith to us by revelation of who this Jesus Christ is in the believer. So faith comes by hearing and hearing by Jesus Christ telling the Holy Spirit what to show us.

Who must have a measure of faith to give to all the Father has sent to the elect? Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Who's faith are we filled with? Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

When we are full of faith, who is always there? The Holy Spirit is always there testifying of Jesus Christ as He promised.

Quote:
"""By sending the demons into the swine, He did not send those demons to "Hades where they remain inactive" and Neither Can We."""

Question; Where did they go?

In Christ: Phillip

hi blayne, Jesus is not the moon in your story... if you have an eclipse where the moon is blocking the sun, the flickering rays of light that flow from the sun would be Jesus. He is the same substance as the Father.jimp

hi, once again, faith is:hearing a directive word from God(build an ark in an arid place)believing this word, obeying this word to the saving of your family.heb.11(the faith chapter) gives examples of people with biblical faith . none were reading the Bible and all heard the voice of the Lord. you can hear the voice of the Lord through the reading of the bible ,but God has to reveal it to you by that quickening that this is direction to yoou personnally.i heard the gospel for a year before i Heard the gospel directed to me to make a move to obey and receive.

This is a great explanation of Romans 10:17:

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

This has nothing to do with studying or memorizing scripture, the word 'word' there is 'rhema' (meaning spoken by the Holy Spirit) if it was related to 'study' the word 'logos' (written word) would have been used.

jimp's example of Noah building an ark, Abraham going to a place where God would show him, etc. are examples of a person obeying the rhema, word. The kind spoken about in Romans 10:17.

Thanks jimp!

Hi! 'Amrkelly'

I've read your Comment through twice now and even enjoyed it more the second time around.

I'm so glad that you included this particular grain of thought concerning how Jesus spoke with authority and especially about the truth behind the "cursing" and "blessing", ... as you're likely aware, not many are able to comprehend this element of Jesus's ministry. But when you further enunciated about the death of Ananias and his wife, I jus' 'bout jumped with joy. This is something exceedingly wonderful to have understood.

Anyways, I don't really get into a fret about those who might fail to fathom the immense liberating truths of our Gospel. But I can hardly contain myself when I read something like what you have shared here.
Thanks, 'Amrkelly'.

Hi! 'Amrkelly'

I've read your Comment through twice now and even enjoyed it more the second time around.

I'm so glad that you included this particular grain of thought concerning how Jesus spoke with authority and especially about the truth behind the "cursing" and "blessing", ... as you're likely aware, not many are able to comprehend this element of Jesus's ministry. But when you further enunciated about the death of Ananias and his wife, I jus' 'bout jumped with joy. This is something exceedingly wonderful to have understood.

Anyways, I don't really get into a fret about those who might fail to fathom the immense liberating truths of our Gospel. But I can hardly contain myself when I read something like what you have shared here.
Thanks, 'Amrkelly'.

Hi! 'Jimp'

I'm sorry if I lent the impression that sun and/or moon were somehow REPLICAS of invisible things. The images of the sun and moon which I exampled are mere "shadows" of the invisible realities.

'Jimp', When you and I first heard the Gospel, a longing was created in us to possess the tremendous treasures revealed within it. We came to desire for the forgiveness of guilt, righteousness, spiritual power, holiness, childhood and sonship of God, kingship, and finally the government on the throne of God of the whole visible and invisible creation. After all, these all together constituted the glorious offer of grace to us.

Our Savior said to us: "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest", (Matt 11:28). Jesus promised to open the doors of the prison of sin and sickness, to break the fetters of their victims. Slaves of sin He would set free and the diseased He would heal.

Because we were hungry and thirsty for righteousness for our body, soul and spirit and for a life of joy and gladness our will was moved when we heard the gospel. That isn't much surprising because it's the norm that our will would be attracted by something which is wonderfully promising. So it is that we now have a share in "the gospel of the glory of Christ", (2Cor 4:4).

In Romans 1.16 the apostle says: "I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith". So, neither you nor I have to be ashamed of our gospel; because it is good and excellent. It reveals the thoughts of a loving and merciful God towards man. This is what prompted us to break with our prior spiritual contact with the powers of darkness who never gave us joy and peace.

But here we both are 'Jimp'. We have traveled a long and victorious Christian road for ourselves for many years now. But it's far past the time that we should have learned to disengage our expectations from the things the earth and desire a faith which takes hold of the unseen; so that our Christian walk is enabled to obtain "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen", (Heb 11:1).

After all, 'Jimp', this is what it means when it says: "Whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him", (Heb 11:6).

Our God is a God Who speaks, and true faith is sustained by God's Word which is eternal and unchangeable. Those who do not believe that God exists cannot repent because they expect nothing from the unseen world At best their faith can only lay hold of natural things of which the natural mind of man is full. True faith, however, centers its attention on the unseen world.

So, I have consistently stated in this Thread that Faith is a function of the spirit through which man is able to seize and appropriate the unseen things. When we hold fast to the words of God, we have faith that "keeps the soul", (Heb 10:39).

Every spirit has faith. It is even said of the evil spirits that they are capable of believing, (James 2:19). Faith, however, must be directed at the Word of God. When the faithful of Thessalonia had turned away from their idols, it says of them: "But your faith, which is towards God, has reached all men's ears", (1Thess 1:8).

When we say we believe someone, this person must first have spoken to us. This is in keeping with Romans 10:17 saying, "So faith comes from what is heard. and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ". When a a person has said much to us and we come to know much about him, our faith and trust in Him proportionally increase.

Through faith, the our inner man (spirit) adopts the thoughts of God. We become moved and saturated by them. This is the way in which the mind is changed and renewed. The new birth which the bible mentions begins first and foremost in the mind. To follow Jesus means to adopt His thoughts and these thoughts govern our words and actions. Faith means seizing the unseen, for words represent thoughts and ideas, and these cannot be perceived by the senses. True faith becomes active through the preaching of the words of God. Revelation 6:2 tells us that the Word goes out 'conquering and to conquer.' He who by faith abides in this Word, that is in Christ, he who holds fast to it in patience, shares and functions in this victory.

Jesus saves man through faith in His words. Then He gives him the Holy Spirit, who also has to be accepted in faith. Faith operates in the unseen, spiritual world and this causes man to not only accept the things he sees and hears in the visible world. So it is through faith that you can move in the spiritual world. You are then living in two spheres: the visible and the unseen. Such was God's purpose when He created man. Even with Adam God tried to establish contact, that He might become one with him.

The bible mentions "little faith", but also about an increase of faith and, again, a great faith. Our faith can only increase when our knowledge is added unto. But this is not knowledge of natural things, but of spiritual things. 'Jimp', the more we know of the spiritual world and its inhabitants, its forces and laws, the greater our faith can be and the more this will show in our words and deeds.

About the centurion at Capernaum Jesus said that he had great faith This was because of his knowledge of the unseen world. He had grasped the meaning of the words which Jesus spoke in parables about the Kingdom of Heaven. He had the ability to translate these images from the natural world into unseen realities. Thus he understood the way in which the healing of his slave had to come about. He regarded his subordinate's sickness as a hostile power and Jesus as the authority in the heavenly places.

His slave's healing was founded on laws of the spiritual world in which Jesus held a position above all, "whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities", (Col 1:16). Just as the centurion could command his soldiers on earth, so Jesus was able in the unseen world to command the authors of sickness to go, (Luke 7:1-10).
'
'Jimp', I've heard the expression, "You have to launch out in faith" more times than I care to remember. I have never been able to understand this vague and undefined idea. What is the position from which a person is to launch out from? We have to abide in faith, walk in faith, struggle and fight in faith, and conquer in faith. This means we have to live as spiritual people from the unseen world. Ours is not the task to launch out, but abide.

Anyways, 'Jimp', I rejoice about the amount of knowledge that people are re-discovering about the truths and laws of the Kingdom of Heaven. I have read some Threads in here that are so wonderful and which reveal profound and glorious things. The greater our knowledge of God's plan, which originates in God's love, and of the way in which He is realizing it, the more we are able to believe God, the greater our faith and trust in Him, and the more we can expect from Him, the more we are able to act in faith. The result of this also is that we see an increasing amount of God's salvation and glory revealed on earth. It is for that reason the apostle prayed: "That you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to lead a life worthy of the Lord", (Col 1:9).

So, 'Jimp', I wish to testify that Jesus' words and parables are "spirit and life". Like seeds they fall into a man's heart, and there, in the unseen world, they are to be transposed to the dimension of the spirit. And it is there that they have the power to give and sustain life, as Jesus said: "For what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit".

This is one of the best threads!

Also thank you brother kelly for your excellent posting!

It is not a matter of knowing how to quote scripture or saying positive things to make something happen.

It is living in the will of God following the leading of the Holy Spirit. It is speaking and doing His will on a daily basis. It is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Hi! 'Jesus-Is-God

Have you ever had the experience when you heard someone say something or perhaps when you read something that someone had written and suddenly, in that very split second, the vertical merged with the horizontal? I've heard some name this experience as an "Eureka Moment" or the "Aha! Effect".
Ummm, know what I mean?

When I read your words saying, "Many want "authority" but refuse to be true students of the Word", it was something of an epiphany for me because those very words of yours instantly disclosed misaligned views concerning this entire Thread.

Your statement would have been much more truthful if it had said: Many want authority but refuse to be true disciples of the Kingdom.

The Scribes were well-versed in the law and the prophets. Yet, they remained unspiritual people who did not understand the words of Jesus. They took His words literally and in the natural world only; not in the spiritual world. They were unable to transpose Jesus' words to the unseen world because they were spiritually blind and deaf. There was a "veil over their minds", (meaning, over their inner beings), (2Cor 3:15).

The same unspiritual attitude is adopted by many fundamentalist Bible teachers of our days. Their minds are fixated on earthly things. They speak incessantly about endtime signs such as earthquakes, landslides, floods, volcanic eruptions, falling stars, eclipses of sun and moon, wars and famines, Every single one of these is an event in the natural world.

To them apply the cutting words of the Lord: "You hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky; but why do you not know how to interpret the present time?", (Luke 12:56). They call themselves Bible-focused Christians, but still insist to limit God's Word to the earth. On the other hand, Jesus spoke of things to be fulfilled literally in the spiritual reality of the unseen world.

So it is, that we have some who are greatly offended by the gospel of Jesus. They become immensely irritated by those who begin to teach about a Believer's power and authority in the kingdom of heaven.

Shamelessly, they refuse to enter the unseen world and by their hypocritical attitude mislead others and keep them from entering too. They fail to see that in these last days the spiritual world is in great turmoil and that, after twenty centuries of Christianity, the struggle in the heavenly places has started anew.

So it is, that the signs of the endtime, the signs of the latter days, can only be recognized by those who walk in the heavenly places; by those disciples of the kingdom who have insight into the unseen world and who know by the Word of prophecy that a new war has broken out in heaven, (Rev 12:7).

Hi Blayne: This is what I meant by earthly faith.

You wrote: "They took His words literally and in the natural world only; not in the spiritual world. They were unable to transpose Jesus' words to the unseen world because they were spiritually blind and deaf. There was a "veil over their minds", (meaning, over their inner beings), (2Cor 3:15)."

They only had earthly faith, not able to transpose the words of Jesus into His unseen world by His faith in them.

Quote: """So, are you still hanging on with me 'ChristInYou'? You're beginning to catch a glimpse of the Gospel OF Jesus ... not merely the Gospel ABOUT Jesus. AKA: the Gospel of the Kingdom.

I could write more about the Gospel of the Kingdom if you wish by a follow-up --- jus' ask, I'd be happy to do so.
Or, I can also direct you to some good literature concerning similar ideas."""

I am still hanging on if this is the Gospel; Colossians 1:12-14 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

The Kingdom of His dear Son. Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

This truly is the Kingdom of His dear Son. Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

If the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of His dear Son are the same, then that is where I am bound for, "according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.

Thank you for your timely post.

In Christ: :Phillip

Hi! 'ChristInYou'

Yep, 'ChristInYou', that's EXACTLY it! Or, as the book of Acts expressed it, "this is that", (2:16).
Yes, Col 1:26-29, as you said.
I am so very pleased to know this about you.
I have been invited to the Netherlands in coming November to meet a wide gathering of Christians who share the same thoughts which you and I are sharing here. As each day draws nearer to my departure, I'm becoming more excited about it.

One could easily demonstrate that when Jesus spoke He did so out of His own authority.

Could you demonstrate it for me, from Scipture? I'm curious.

Hi amrkelly,

Jesus said that He did not speak from his own authority, He directly said this in John 12:49-50 KJV.

For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

He only said what The Father (via the Holy Spirit) told Him to say. He spoke no idle words. This is the core of Romans 10:17 and a great definition of the difference between the logos(written) word and the rhema(spoken) word.

Everest's question was in fact a good question because, saying that Jesus spoke on His own authority directly contradicts what He said of Himself.

hi, thank everyone for wonderful posts with Christ like hearts exspessed beyond my ability.jimp

Many saints simply can’t make the connection to their good benefit precisely because of the WOF abuses of Scripture, and speaking more personally, because of pastors who individually are seeking their own glory.

Thanks for the post back brother, I'm in agreement there.

To be sure the tongue has power:

The tongue can bring death or life; those who love to talk will reap the consequences. ~Proverbs 18:21

When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. ~James 3:3-4

Love the metaphor by James about the ship, I was in the Navy so it speaks to me. The man in charge of the rudder has the power to steer the ship wherever he wants to.

My initial response to the thread was to give the warning as to where ministries step out of line concerning this area. I've been though the extremes of this teaching and wouldn't want my worst enemy to go through the same. It held people in bondage in their lives, rather than being honest with one another and talking about it, it produced people who walked around with issues but afraid to talk about them because it wan't 'positive'.

All of this falseness caused people to not be able to pray for one another, deal with issues that were caused by leadership (in a Godly way), or anything else, it was terrible! It gave the leadership of the church a free pass to operate without worry of someone calling out their financial misdeeds because that would not have been 'positive'. This is where it can lead to demonic control.

Please hear my heart, I'm not saying that this is where this situation is going, just wanted to hopefully help the brother avoid a situation like this. :-)

Much thanks and love! :-)

I am indeed the same author of the other post, and have not been able to re-read it at present, although I will shortly make a concerted effort to find it and review the responses once more.

I would like to add some things that would make this situation clear, and possibly guide anyone in prayer for me, my wife and my job - why?

Simple. My wife seems to follow these people such as Hinn, Duplantis etc, and at one point I may well have seen them as truly Christian... She is encouraged by the changes that are going on in our church, any discussions about concerns usually end up with heated discussions about how I am putting God a box, don't I dare blaspheme the spirit. I've had to take a very cautious approach, slowly introducing biblical ideas and this is going to be my next hurdle.

Why work - my boss is an elder of said church, and is all about systems, procedures and teams. If I were to challenge the church in their teachings, it would also (subsequently) cause issues with whom I work. We now don't have ministries - we have departments.

It is a desperate situation. I have seriously considered trying other fellowships of a more reformed nature, but I don't know where or how to look. As I've probably mentioned, talking to people in our fellowship seems to go nowhere, and my entire Christian life has been centred around this particular church and all that we have been through.

So, I have not been able to rectify the OP about the sermon issue (I'm really pleased someone remembered) and found a situation getting worse IMO.

Now you all know. Obviously I am not mentioning names, or locations here, and I value prayers that would help me at least not to feel alone in this situation, that I could meet with other like-minded Christians who do not want to back down on the truth of scripture. I will make sure my email is on my profile page should anyone want to discuss this outside of this topic.

Many thanks for a considered and thoughtful reply. It certainly highlighted some areas in my life where I need to reign things in a little - my renewed sense of things spiritual have caused a somewhat over zealous desire in me. Be self controlled...

I will note however, that the names I mentioned are people who may well be true brothers in Christ, yet their faith is misguided. Certainly the evidence of material riches would weigh against them scripturally, I would have thought.

I am not in opposition to my pastor, rather I am currently subject to his leadership as much as I can bear in terms of teaching. I am certainly happy that our fellowship has endured an extremely hard time with the departure of our previous pastor (a traumatic experience) and having to effectively coast along without direction or purpose. But I attend, serve and am seeking an opportunity to discuss these issues with him, politely. I have no desire to cause friction, that is not our command according to scripture.

The comments about the kingdom were very interesting - again, this is now being taught in our fellowship and we are now involved in the process of building the kingdom in our town... Whatever that means.

And yes, we are all frail humans in the sight of God, and he uses the weak among us. I certainly am weak, but feel cast aside. I do not let this concern me, but commit my time instead to seeking Him and what I should do...

I will keep your number, and maybe one day we will talk. I'm just curious what tomorrow will bring :-)

Blayne wrote:

"It has me asking the question of Romans 3:3: "Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"
Did you notice above the words FAITH OF GOD here too?
Anyways, we should all move beyond our feeble vocabulary and simply state it the way it is: God has Faith!
Our Christian life stands on God's faith; what God's faith had declared about us and of His eternal plans and intents for us."

This is not true.

God by "oath" is the creator of faith in men. In Scripture, where it speaks to the "faith of Christ" or the "faith of God" it is speaking of the means by which God establishes men's belief in Him.

The evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit, is presented to confirm what was spoken in oath by God. This mounting evidence, the work of God, becomes the substance of what is hoped for by each individual. As the evidence grows so grows the trust, so grows the faith in those who act according to His yoke. The hope created by the goodness of God, replaces the substance of the hope which Satan has established in each individual. This is how God enables the elect to love Him with our whole heart, with our whole mind, and with all of our strength...

Psa 119:49\tZAYIN. Remember the word to Your servant, Upon which You have caused me to hope.

This is an illustration of the oath from which faith finds it's source.

Psa 119:114\tYou [are] my hiding place and my shield; I hope in Your word.
Psa 119:116\tUphold me according to Your word, that I may live; And do not let me be ashamed of my hope.
Psa 119:147\tI rise before the dawning of the morning, And cry for help; I hope in Your word.
Psa 119:166\tLORD, I hope for Your salvation, And I do Your commandments.

This is an illustration of one who continues to search for how God will establish what He gave in oath to him.

Psa 119:99\tI have more understanding than all my teachers, For Your testimonies [are] my meditation.

Psa 119:100\tI understand more than the ancients, Because I keep Your precepts.

Psa 119:101\tI have restrained my feet from every evil way, That I may keep Your word.

Psa 119:102\tI have not departed from Your judgments, For You Yourself have taught me.

Psa 119:103\tHow sweet are Your words to my taste, [Sweeter] than honey to my mouth!

Psa 119:104\tThrough Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.

Psa 119:105\tNUN. Your word [is] a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

This is an illustration of God teaching a man through the Holy Spirit.

Paul writes...

1Cr 3:5\tWho then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?

1Cr 3:6\tI planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

1Cr 3:7\tSo then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

The "increase" which Paul speaks of is what the writer of Pslam 119 refers to when he states...

Psa 119:99\tI have more understanding than all my teachers, For Your testimonies [are] my meditation.

Psa 119:102\tI have not departed from Your judgments, For You Yourself have taught me.

Hi! "Rookie"

I read your opinion as plainly stated, "This is not true".

You might wish to reference one of the most revered and scholarly Greek Grammar books under title of "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research", (Author: A. T. Robertson).

You can obtain this book at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Greek-Testament-Historical-Research/dp/0805413081

I quote from page 500 of the book:
"Here again we must appeal to the root-idea of the genitive as the case of genus or kind. The resultant idea is due to the context and one must not suppose that the Greek genitive means all the different English prepositions used to translate the resultant idea. Thus in Mk. 11:22 we rightly translate 'have faith in God,' though the genitive does not mean 'in', but only the God kind of faith".

I hope this might be of help to you.

amrkelly wrote:

"May I ask what you mean by the “substance of hope which Satan has established in each individual?” When we were yet in unbelief we were without hope. What hope does the unbeliever have? Thank you."

1Jo 2:16\tFor all that [is] in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.

Temptation finds it source in Satan. There are three ways in which Satan tempts man to sow to his flesh. As man submits to one or all of these ways of temptation, man seeks to find satisfaction and fulfillment through gratifying the flesh. I myself have been down this road. I once was a pot head. At first a small amount of grass was satisfying. In the process of time, my desire to get high, consumed the entire day. For me, this is an example of the kind of hope that Satan instills in men and women. Think about all the Scripture which speaks of the evil in this world. This evil is the substance of what the world hopes for. The substance of this hope corrupts and destroys.

Blayne quoted:

" Thus in Mk. 11:22 we rightly translate 'have faith in God,' though the genitive does not mean 'in', but only the God kind of faith"."

The literal meaning "but only the God kind of faith" identifies the source from which faith is established. God does not have faith. God creates faith in men by speaking to men.

Psa 119:49\tZAYIN. Remember the word to Your servant, Upon which You have caused me to hope.

We know that this man was taught by God through the Holy Spirit. In like manner, Abraham also experienced the same grace. Think about the testimony of Abraham and the way in which God worked in Abraham to "convince" him that His promises were sure. From the foundation of this world, man is only saved by "the God kind of faith"."

Each individual has a unique testimony. Each individual's testimony glorifies the One who has established His promise with that individual. There is no "generic brand" that is dispensed that saves man.

Rookie wrote: """God does not have faith."""

God is faith, just as God is Love, Wisdom, Righteousness, Sanctification and Redemption and all else that pertains to Salvation of God by the Blood Of Christ, through the Faith of Jesus Christ.

Rookie also wrote: """There is no "generic brand" that is dispensed that saves man."""

This is not generic, but the Word of God; 1 John 5:1-13 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

By the Faith of Christ, or
our faith in Christ?
by Tony Warren

The whole article is quite long for a post on this forum, so you can go to; http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/faithof.html
for the whole article.

It shows man trying to change the faith of Christ into the mans faith in Christ by the changing of two simple prepositions from of to in, and declares this is mans own manipulation of the scriptures to allow man to keep some small part of his salvation for himself.

Small excerpt below;

Philippians 3:9

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"
Here is another absolutely clear statement of God's justification by faith. And yet many of these newer, so-called modern translations, pervert the meaning of these passages by translating them 'faith in Christ' rather than 'faith of Christ.' And just to clarify, when I say the faith of Christ, I don't believe that the "faith of Christ" means we have no faith. Rather, it means that we only have faith "because" of Christ in us. In other words, our faith is undergirded by Christ, and is merely the evidence of Christ working in us. Not the evidence of some inherent faith, or will to believe that we possessed beforehand. Obviously if the righteousness is of God by faith, it cannot be by 'our' faith in Christ, for no man is justified by His own faith (work). Faith was started and finished by God, and is His gift to man, as can clearly be seen in Galatians:
Galatians 3:22

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."
You will not find anything in Galatians chapter 3 that illustrates God is placing any emphasis on the salvific efficacy of man's own faith, nor is there one single place where we might conclude that God speaks Christ as the object of human faith. On the contrary, the word declares there "that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." If faith in Christ is given, then how are men justified by their own faith? It makes no sense. Was the promise given by our work of faith, or by the faithfulness of Christ (2nd Timothy 1:1)? Was it given by the will of God, or by our own conscience of will because we had faith in Him? You see it always gets back to our action/work, verses the action/work of God in us. Our own faith verses Christ's faith. And Christ's faith is the only faith of assurance, or faith in which we are secure.

In Christ: Phillip

Phillip quoted:

"It shows man trying to change the faith of Christ into the mans faith in Christ by the changing of two simple prepositions from of to in, and declares this is mans own manipulation of the scriptures to allow man to keep some small part of his salvation for himself."

There is no need to change a preposition from of to in...this is a false argument. There is also a false humility in what is said. By combining the idea of changing the preposition to say then that man is keeping "some small part of his salvation for himself" is deceptive. Likewise the Scripture does say that God is love, but it does not say that "God is faith."

The faith of Christ is transfered by this means only, and only according to Scripture...

Jhn 16:13\t"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Jhn 16:14\t"He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare [it] to you.

The Spirit speaks according to the authority of Christ. In this way the "faith of Christ" it taught to those who hear the "word of God." He alone, the Word of God, speaks to man. The substance of what is spoken is meant to teach man of God's righteousness. If man listens, and acts upon what is spoken, man will understand how "faith" imparts eternal life.

Positive thinking does not appropriate "the Life."

Likewise the Scripture does say that God is love, but it does not say that "God is faith."

Rebuttle: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If Jesus Christ is the One that is the Author; (author, captain, prince). "Prince of Faith" then faith must come from God His Father.

Is not God All to All and All and in All

By the Faith of Christ, or
our faith in Christ?
by Tony Warren

Hebrews 12:2

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
When we compare scripture with scripture, we have contradiction after contradiction with rendering it our faith in Christ. If Christ is both the Author and Finisher of our faith, how is it by our own faith? It makes no sense. The translators can vainly argue about tense, and subjective genitive nouns for the next ten years, but by the preponderance of Biblical evidence, it is conclusive. We are saved by faith of Christ. He is the author and finisher of faith in us. It was by His obedience, it was by His work, and it was by His choosing. Can man's own faith in Christ cause belief?

Ro 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

The Faith of Christ is a gift, the revelation of truth through faith is why faith is given to those that believe, the faith of Jesus Christ brings us the Mind of Christ and the way we renew our minds to the Mind of Christ. by His Faith, the Gift of God through the work of the Holy Spirit,

Galatians 5:22

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,"
These are the fruits or 'works' of the Spirit. They are the results of God working in us, and among them is listed faith. Faith is the fruit that will show up in our lives because of the Spirit. Just as we read before (Galatians 2:16) of our justification by faith, here also God reveals from a different perspective, that 'His' work results in faith.
Natural man doesn't like the truth, but we must understand that before we were drawn of God, we were "by nature" spiritually dead. We were as dead as Lazarus was, where we were unable to have faith, to lift ourselves up, or to seek God. As the Lord said, there is none that seeketh after God, no not one. But when we come to understand true Grace, it is then that we discern that every aspect of our calling, drawing, and salvation, has to be through what God has done. Man in his own egotism hates giving up his pride (often euphemistically called, self respect) because he wants some kind of control, or desires in himself some credit for his doing (when those other sinners didn't) something. Man often doesn't recognize the real motivations for many of his beliefs. Because4 he doesn't want to 'surrender' all his will to God's will, and bow to God's complete sovereignty. But we have to come to the point where we totally trust in His faith, rather than in our own faith or what we do. Autonomous man has the idea that he is the one that can have his own faith. But that kind of faith to believe is the faith of false religions where men have faith that they are going to a happy afterlife by worshipping a cow, idol or the stars. But that is not saving faith or faith to believe. That is the faith "without works" that God says is dead (James 2:18-26). In true Christianity, the only work which produces saving faith is the work of Christ. It is not our works, lest we could boast, but is the faith "with works" of the living efficacious "faith of Christ." Faith without this work is dead.

When we think of what was required to bring us to saving faith, we should understand that this meant that Christ had to pay for every one of our sins by enduring God's wrath on our behalf. What contribution did we make to this work that produced faith? Christ not only had to apply His Holy word to our hearts, and give us a new resurrected soul, He had to give us something others don't have, which is the saving faith by which we are moved or 'drawn' to Christ to receive eternal life. What contribution did we make to that? It is foolish of us to think that we of ourselves could be good enough to have our own faith in Christ.

Professing Christians can believe whatever they want, including that their efforts or faith have something to do with their salvation. But in truth, these ideas are the same as those who believe that because they chose to believe when other sinners didn't, God reciprocated by making them righteous. That just shows they haven't the slightest idea of the 'true' nature of salvation, the definition of Grace, or whose work of faith was required in order to make us righteous.

There is much much more on the Truth of the Faith of the Son of God by who's faith we now live in this life.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Mat.ch 3
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

John ch 8
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Rookie wrote: """There is no need to change a preposition from of to in...this is a false argument. There is also a false humility in what is said. By combining the idea of changing the preposition to say then that man is keeping "some small part of his salvation for himself" is deceptive. Likewise the Scripture does say that God is love, but it does not say that "God is faith." """

What is decptive is man trying to benifit his own glory instead of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Again; Rebuttle: Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If Jesus Christ is the One that is the Author; (author, captain, prince). "Prince of Faith" then faith must come from God His Father.

"Of" or "in" is not in the scriptures that have been changed, it literally says "the faith Christ", but the majority of Greek scholars by diffinition falls on "of".

By the Faith of Christ, or
our faith in Christ?
by Tony Warren

Hebrews 12:2

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

When we compare scripture with scripture, we have contradiction after contradiction with rendering it our faith in Christ. If Christ is both the Author and Finisher of our faith, how is it by our own faith? It makes no sense. The translators can vainly argue about tense, and subjective genitive nouns for the next ten years, but by the preponderance of Biblical evidence, it is conclusive. We are saved by faith of Christ. He is the author and finisher of faith in us. It was by His obedience, it was by His work, and it was by His choosing. Can man's own faith in Christ cause belief?

Ro 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

The Faith of Christ is a gift, the revelation of truth through faith is why faith is given to those that believe, the faith of Jesus Christ brings us the Mind of Christ and the way we renew our minds to the Mind of Christ. by His Faith, the Gift of God through the work of the Holy Spirit,

Galatians 5:22

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,"
These are the fruits or 'works' of the Spirit. They are the results of God working in us, and among them is listed faith. Faith is the fruit that will show up in our lives because of the Spirit. Just as we read before (Galatians 2:16) of our justification by faith, here also God reveals from a different perspective, that 'His' work results in faith.
Natural man doesn't like the truth, but we must understand that before we were drawn of God, we were "by nature" spiritually dead. We were as dead as Lazarus was, where we were unable to have faith, to lift ourselves up, or to seek God. As the Lord said, there is none that seeketh after God, no not one. But when we come to understand true Grace, it is then that we discern that every aspect of our calling, drawing, and salvation, has to be through what God has done. Man in his own egotism hates giving up his pride (often euphemistically called, self respect) because he wants some kind of control, or desires in himself some credit for his doing (when those other sinners didn't) something. Man often doesn't recognize the real motivations for many of his beliefs. Because4 he doesn't want to 'surrender' all his will to God's will, and bow to God's complete sovereignty. But we have to come to the point where we totally trust in His faith, rather than in our own faith or what we do. Autonomous man has the idea that he is the one that can have his own faith. But that kind of faith to believe is the faith of false religions where men have faith that they are going to a happy afterlife by worshipping a cow, idol or the stars. But that is not saving faith or faith to believe. That is the faith "without works" that God says is dead (James 2:18-26). In true Christianity, the only work which produces saving faith is the work of Christ. It is not our works, lest we could boast, but is the faith "with works" of the living efficacious "faith of Christ." Faith without this work is dead.

When we think of what was required to bring us to saving faith, we should understand that this meant that Christ had to pay for every one of our sins by enduring God's wrath on our behalf. What contribution did we make to this work that produced faith? Christ not only had to apply His Holy word to our hearts, and give us a new resurrected soul, He had to give us something others don't have, which is the saving faith by which we are moved or 'drawn' to Christ to receive eternal life. What contribution did we make to that? It is foolish of us to think that we of ourselves could be good enough to have our own faith in Christ.

Professing Christians can believe whatever they want, including that their efforts or faith have something to do with their salvation. But in truth, these ideas are the same as those who believe that because they chose to believe when other sinners didn't, God reciprocated by making them righteous. That just shows they haven't the slightest idea of the 'true' nature of salvation, the definition of Grace, or whose work of faith was required in order to make us righteous.

There is much much more on the Truth of the Faith of the Son of God by who's faith we now live in this life.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip