Apostos--Rapture or falling away of the church? 2 Thes:

During our Wednesday Night services, our pastor has, much to the delight of my wife and I, began a study of Revelation chapter by chapter. We're lovin' it. At any rate, last night, we were going through Revelation 6 and to preface all the horrors that were being revealed, especially the first seal (anti-Christ), the pastor showed us several places in the Bible where it tells that Christians will be raptured before any of this happens.One verse he went to threw me for a loop.2 Thessalonians 2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;There, the "falling away", our pastor pointed out, that many believe that is speaking of apostasy in the church...a falling away from the truth. The original Greek for that phase is apostos or something like that...can't remember exactly what, BUT!!Pastor Cowling pointed out that the actual meaning of that word is akin to "a departure" or a LEAVING.Basically, interpreting the verse to meaning that these things will not take place until after...THE DEPARTURE (rapture).Very interesting. It is, perhaps, as my wife suggested, simply that the verse is MEANT to have a dual-meaning, or maybe, if the pastor is right alone, are we looking for growing apostasy in the church where there will be none? (Frankly, I think there obviously IS, but whatever...)Just wondered at some of the more advanced takes on this interpretation of scripture.

Yes, Revelations is very interesting. A couple of weeks ago we read all of Revelations out loud with everyone in the congregation participating. The Holy Spirit quickened some portions of the scripture as He often does. It was a blessed evening.As to your question, I'm not a pastor and it's an interesting question you posed. Personally I don't use commentaries that much because I want to be reliant on the Holy Spirit more than reliant on someone else's interpretation but sometimes they're helpful. Here's what Adam Clarke said about this verse. "Except there come a falling away first] We have the original word apostasia in our word apostasy; and by this term we understand a dereliction of the essential principles of religious truth - either a total abandonment of Christianity itself, or such a corruption of its doctrines as renders the whole system completely inefficient to salvation. But what this apostasy means is a question which has not yet, and perhaps never will be, answered to general satisfaction."I think your pastor could be correct and I don't claim to know. I used to be into all the "pre-trib" stuff and frankly I don't believe it any more for a whole host of reasons.I believe there is already a great falling away, at least in the United States and the evidence of that manifestation is very clear. So the apostasy appears to me to be very real at present. Here's some verses for you to ponder as well.Don't be fooled by what they say.For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.Footnote: Greek the son of destruction.New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust NKJV - 2Th 2:3 - Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson NASB - 2Th 2:3 - Let no one in any way deceive you, for {it will not come} unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation RSV - 2Th 2:3 - Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952. Webster - 2Th 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Noah Webster Version 1833 Info Young - 2Th 2:3 - let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info Darby - 2Th 2:3 - Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info ASV - 2Th 2:3 - let no man beguile you in any wise: for [it will not be,] except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,American Standard Version 1901 Info HNV - 2Th 2:3 - Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

It is my understanding that this "departure" happened long ago, beginning even while Paul was still there in the assemblies, really fleshing out when "christendom" was formed (state church), growing into our present "form(s)", and possibly even culminating in something worse (possibly not). I guess it could get much worse but apostate is apostate, whatever its outward skeleton. I believe the loaf is fully leavened with the woman's leaven.The Lord has warned me about looking ahead for things that are behind. Or about looking with the wrong set of "eyes."

I do say that this subject is one of great error.Friends, from what the Holy Spirit has shown me, the conception of a pre-tribulation rapture is without question unscriptural. Firstly, I do want to let it be known that I am not about to go into this in detail, time permitting, but simply to add a few points.The worst place to start studying end time prophecy is the book of Revelation. The best places to start is Daniel and the three accounts of the Olivette Discourse in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Find out what Jesus says about it. Then consider Paul's letters to the Thessalonians.The pre-rapture theory is not an ancient phenomenon either, but began only 150 years ago or so when a lady had a vision about it. Prior to that, this idea had not even be considered.Also, this idea is a strictly North American view and you won't find pre-tribulation believers in other parts of the world except for those places influenced by our missionaries, etc.So, all I am saying is study the Scriptures, pray for understanding, and consider that the pre-rapture concept may be nothing more than, as Micah 2:11 describes, pillow prophet prophecy!Believe me, when Jesus comes there will be nothing secret about it, and he will come and destroy destroy anti-Christ and deliver he faithful bride into his glorious presence!Revelation 1:7 - "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

I agree with your take on this and it's very similar to what the Holy Spirit has shown me as well. The bigger question we have to ask ourselves "Am I ready if Jesus came back today?" Am I sold out to Him and is that evident in my daily life?

I would recommend a letter written by Corrie Ten Boom written in 1974....http://www.baldpreachers.net/corrieletter1. When has it been typical of God's character to remove his people from persecution? And is he able to keep us from His wrath, while we live in the midst of it?2. Jesus also spoke of false prophets deceiving many, and the anti-christ would even deceive the elect, if possible. The letter will help show the ramifications of this type of theology, but I do assure you there will be eternal damage b/c of it.

Let me clear up something about us Pre-tribers (Yes I am one and I do believe it's scriptural and just like my brother on the other side of the table I don't want to debate it). There is not the thought for one moment that the Rapture, as taught by Pre-tribers, will be secret, quite the contrary. Do I believe in a Pre-trib rapture? Yes, Secret Rapture? No and neither do any Pre-tribers that I know of. :-) In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

Yes i agree with jeremy. How would a large number of people disapearing off of the earth be secret?

I agree with your take on this and it's very similar to what the Holy Spirit has shown me as well. And me as well. I think for me, what is really troubling is that one of today's main teachers of this doctrine "fudges" facts concerning the historical teaching of a pretrib rapture. He will quote "out of context" one early church writing to support his assertion that pre-trib was taught in the early church. I find any type of dishonesty extremely troubling in the Body of Christ. If something is "truth", then the validity of it will stand. Just my two cents... :-) In Him, Cindy

The following quote is from Katz's Apostolic ManifestoThis is intrinsic to apostolic comprehension of what the church is. The church that fits the description I have given will itself comprehend and recognize its calling toward the restoration of Israel in her last days’ tribulation. It will certainly dismiss any thought that it is going to be raptured away at the time when its presence is most radically required, for its presence means salvation for Jews in their soon-coming “time of Jacob’s trouble.” This is not an appendage for the church; it is central and primary to the church’s own consideration of itself and what its purposes are in God.Personally, I could never grasp the fact that God would pull out all the christians, when their needed most. But that's just me.

Personally, I could never grasp the fact that God would pull out all the christians, when their needed most. But that's just me.It's not just you Aaron, by any means! :-)

This is intrinsic to apostolic comprehension of what the church is. The church that fits the description I have given will itself comprehend and recognize its calling toward the restoration of Israel in her last days’ tribulation. It will certainly dismiss any thought that it is going to be raptured away at the time when its presence is most radically required, for its presence means salvation for Jews in their soon-coming “time of Jacob’s trouble.” This is not an appendage for the church; it is central and primary to the church’s own consideration of itself and what its purposes are in God.I think when anyone understands that the Body of Christ IS The Church (Eph. 1:22-23)----they would understand that we cannot be removed, because up until the second coming of Jesus in Glory, there WILL be additions to the Body of Christ (II Pet. 3:9, James 5:7, Eph. 1:10).Also, something in regard to what Art Katz said above: The Lord brought my attention to Rom. 11:29-32 quite a long time ago. Maybe I'm seeing more than is there but I found this interesting in verse 31: THROUGH the mercy extended to us, the Jew will also receive mercy. There is such a ONENESS in that passage, pure unity in the purposes of God. It is not an "us" and "them" thing, which I believe the Lord wants us to understand. I believe the endtime saint will be used to bring in the fulness of the Body of Christ, not be removed and spared from tribulation. As His Word says, all will come to Him in His perfect timing......and His ways are so above our own. Blessings, Cindy

It's not just you Aaron, by any means! My position on this may be a bit simple; but why not just be ready for whatever happens? If it be rapture so be it. If it be persecution, be ready for it. Too much stock in a pre trib position tends to keep folk unprepared. Some are said to be so pretrib that they will not eat Post Toasties (thats an American breakfast cereal). i talked to an elderly gentleman who said to me about a month ago that he had no concern about persecution because he was going up in the Rapture. I spent about 15 minutes recounting a few stories from John Foxe that he never heard of. That is my real concern; folk are not ready to suffer.

Very nice discussion, and one I find a lot of difference in thought. However, one of the points that was made, stating that we should always be ready and waiting for Christ's return is very true.Also, sermonindex.com is a great resource, it has convicted my heart with its sermons and discussions. (Ravenhill and Reidhead are great)Relating to the (Pre-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation) Rapture discussion, Dr. Charles Stewart has a sermon on this. http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=12505222744(Sorry to re-direct to another site, but it is very pertinent to the discussion - and since we are all striving for the same goal, I think it will be ok).Thanks,Travis

folk are not ready to suffer.Jesus continually tells us to to be ready! Many times he tells us not to be caught off guard. The problem with the pre-rapture idea is that you have no need to be ready. Any minute you could be taken and that's it. Ready for what? Ready for trials and tribulation?It's a shame to think that at the most crucial moment, when Jesus should be lifted up as the bronze snake, the church will vanish and leave all the sinners for God's return.Remember that Paul tied in the coming of the Lord Jesus AND the gathering of the saints together, not two separate events.2 Thessalonians 2:1 - "Concering the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him..." -If we believe that Jesus will return to rapture us BEFORE tribulation, then do we believe in three comings?-Another interesting point: Read on after verse 1: "...we ask you, brothers, not to be alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us..." That is exactly where the pre-trib idea came from. A prophecy from a lady about 150 years ago.-And the next part of verse 2: "...saying that the day of the Lord has already come." This is precisely what everyone will be saying on that supposed disappearing of the saints. Believe the Scriptures when it makes clear that the day of the Lord will not be a secret, and this question will never have to be asked.-"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way." (v.3)Please, brothers and sisters, the next time you get hold of your Bibles read Matthew chapter 25 and see how the master, bridegroom and Lord RETURNS at the END after being away to separate the saints from the world.In Christ Jesus, who is to come,-Eli

dear brother,

what about what Jesus said in regard of the tribulation. for the sake of the elects those days were abreviated, if not, not flesh would survive.

in love.

Aaron,Looking at rev. and the antichrist it appears to me the saint are slaughtered.
who is left to help israel?
If i ask why would God remove the church when it is needed the most ,am I not also saying that should the rapture take place before the tribulation period,that God doesnt know what he is doing.
or , if it is a question of wits then I would think it would be quite common to question God in desasters......God why did you allow this?

David

I know art is a favorite on S.I. but this Apostolic manifesto quote seems out in left field.
Where is the church suppose to tie in to animal sacrifice with the jews rebuilding their temple?
Already churches are observing jewish feasts and covering thier heads with levitical prayer shouls.
Some even have the ark on the platform.

I would hope this would diminish not intensify

can anyone explain this?

David

Jim, to me it is just the opposite.the scenerio you put forth is inacurate.
I am pre-trib and i know without holiness nobody will see God.
Your false picture you paint of anyone not holding your interpretation of end times is totally out of line.
The five foolish virgins are shut out.
So the free ride you depict actually falls on the post-trib believers.
I could easily take the same shot and say"yea those post tribs think they can just sit back in their carnal lives cause Jesus aint comming back were just waiting for antichrist to show up. Then well get serious about our walk"
It is just the opposite. Those that are raptured will be ready. The foolish will not.
You will always have corrupt government with suffering people. This is not a template to gauge scripture.

This type of "study" will surely lead to error.
No sir,I will keep being led of God and the bible.
If you think communism is bad wait till the church is raptured, you only think youve seen suffering.

David

2 Thessalonians 2:1 does say "AND" not "by the coming of our Lord Jesus our gathering together unto him" but the word says " and by our gathering together unto him".Believe me i think the pre-trib mentality is more dangerous than the doctrine.when the bible says days of the Lord i believe confuse some.Zechariah 14:1 deals with the 2nd coming some of the same language as Rev.19 and Zech.14:5 He cant come with his saints until He comes for his saints.1 Thes 5:2 deals with the rapture still called the day of the Lord but different event.Also 1 Thess.1:10 paul says "And to wait for his Son from heaven,even Jesus,which delivered us from the wrath to come.Paul was beheaded but he said delieverd us from the wrath to come speaking of the body of Christ.2 peter 3:10 says day of the Lord but its not the rapture or the second coming because the heavens and the earth melt with a fervant heat if that were the rapture or the second coming there would be no earth to have a 1000 yr reign but Rev 20:11 " And i saw a great whit throne ,and him that sat on it,from whose face the earth and heavon fled away;and there was found no place for the.We all know that day of the lord matching 2 Peter as the great white throne.I do believe in the rapture of the church but I do not believe God has appointed us to wrath.I hope and pray though if we see persecution and i believe we will that the pre trib will not lose faith and the post trib mistake it for wrath.God bless

dear Saints
greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

we will soon find out what God's Position on this is. May we be weighed and not found wanting when He makes it plain for us all.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

Hi jimdied2sin...

I find it absurd that some are willing to say that they've reached their position in this argument because it is "completely clear from the Scriptures." In my opinion, it is [u]NOT[/u] completely clear. That is why there are so many positions about the timing of the "rapture." After years of study in this matter, I currently do not firmly embrace either position (pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib). I [u]lean[/u] toward a belief in a pre-trib "catching away." This doesn't come because I listen to the multitudes of pre-trib preachers. This doesn't come because I reject the multitudes of post-trib preachers. I simply realized that it is nearly impossible to make a definitive conclusion in this matter. I lean toward pre-trib, but I can completely understand how believers might be forced to endure the coming wrath of God upon the Earth.

Millions of professing Christians in America, lovers of pleasure, at ease in zion, playing games with sin, and storing up treasure on earth have the audacity to proclaim that we will be spared from the tribulation?

I have never met a true believer who felt that a "pre-trib rapture" equated to a belief that Christians will not face "persecution" or "tribulation" in this life. Most pre-trib believers that I know obviously realize that we will face both tribulation and persecution in life. But there is a difference between the tribulations and persecutions that come from this world (or the god of this world) and the wrath that comes from the last day judgments of God poured upon the Earth. The pre-trib view, as best I understand it, says that believers will ESCAPE only the GREAT TRIBULATION (aka, the wrath of God).

We need to be careful about making a final conclusion in such a matter prematurely. In fact, some "doctrinal" issues don't even need a "final conclusion" to ever be reached. Is it so grave an issue that people will fall away from God? I don't believe that argument. If someone truly knows the Lord and spends intimate time with Him, why should they fear for their salvation one way or the other? If the Lord "raptures" us before the Great Tribulation -- PRAISE GOD! If we are supposed to endure the Great Tribuation -- PRAISE GOD! Either way, we can know and suffer for our Lord in this world.

:-)

Jim, Hi,trust me I dont think you are a heretic.
Too bad the flip side isnt true.
Read your last 3 sentences.
Myself,looking at this i feel your sting.
I am pretrib therefor you say "strong delusion"

I can compose your post[from oct 27] and change a few words around and bingo! Now you are the bad guy! What on earth is the point?

If I did that , you would look at it and say to yourself "this guy has an agenda besides escatology"

....I have noticed in the post trib camp an irresistable need to lump in the pretrib believers with bafoons and heretics,and fools so decieved they think a naval air station is a valve on a bellybutton.

Look at it this way; if the 2nd comming scriptures are like a tall stack of dominoes you or I could tip that stack one way or another. It just depends on what side I am standing.

In order to come to an understanding i must reconcile the position I take with other scripture.
OR,I can find understanding through process of elimination. [not to be confused with the smallest room of the house]

Neither side can say for sure by looking at 2nd comming scriptures alone.

...David

Hi Jim...

I have done no such thing, my thoughts have been greatly mis-interpretted. They stand as they are, if they apply to you ok, if not ok.

I do feel that your posts seem to equate a belief in the "pre-trib rapture" with the "easy believism" of the modern church. Consider your post:

Millions of professing Christians in America, lovers of pleasure, at ease in zion, playing games with sin, and storing up treasure on earth have the audacity to proclaim that we will be spared from the tribulation?

What an insult to those truly living for Christ and suffering in the rest of the world. Oh save yourself from our babylonian church system and her theology friends. Professing Christians in America should be far more concerned over the coming wrath of God against His enemies then persecution from the devil.

The devil loves our evangelical church system and he will do nothing to harm his bride.

For this cause many have been handed over to strong delussion....

Like I said before, there is a difference between believers of the prosperity "health/wealth" gospel who preach that believers will not face tribulation -- and other believers who conclude that Christians will escape the coming wrath of God (known as "the Great Tribulation"). Yet some posters make it seem like those who embrace or espouse such a belief are "deceived" by Satan himself! Do you see the wild extremism that can be perceived in this? Both pre-trib and post-trib are merely [i]conclusions[/i] based upon our own understanding of what the Scripture teaches about the End Times. We should really refrain from using the "d" words ("deceived," "deception," or "delusion") simply because someone has reached a different conclusion than our own.

Again, Brother Jim, I am not pointing out your posts. I am attempting to illustrate the manner in which such discussions sometimes seem to go. Believers are often quick to point the finger of Scriptural authority in areas that aren't quite so ultimately conclusive.

So how should pre-trib believers approach this issue? For one, they should be completely aware of the idea that believers might suffer through the Great Tribulation. Believers should know and love Christ intimately enough that they be ready, willing and able to endure the wrath of God (if they are appointed to suffer it). If God does not provide an "ark of escape" when the bowls are poured, then we should LOVE AND SERVE HIM ANYWAY!

How should post-trib believers approach this issue? They should not point the "[i]You'll be deceived![/i]" finger at those who simply disagree with them. They should go about teaching their beliefs with patience, serving as a warning that believers should be ready in case the Church may be appointed to suffer the coming wrath of God. The thought that such an "escape" might not happen (according to what you feel and explain from the Scriptures) will be cause enough to allow the sincere believer the grace to be ready regardless of future circumstances.

If Christ allows us to escape the coming wrath of God that will be poured upon the Earth -- HALLELUJAH! If we are allowed to suffer this wrath -- HALLELUJAH! Either way, we can serve God through life and through death!

:-)

The last message in this thread stated:
If Christ allows us to escape the coming wrath of God that will be poured upon the Earth -- HALLELUJAH! If we are allowed to suffer this wrath -- HALLELUJAH! Either way, we can serve God through life and through death!

I concur but wanted to add just one more note to the thread: I realize that this thread has been around for quite a few days, but I have just discovered it and wanted to make a hopefully fairly brief comment. I agree with those who do not want the Body of Christ divided over this issue, and with the statement to the effect that we will find out soon enough.

I do not know whether this issue has already been discussed ad infinitum on this site elsewhere, but I confess that for many years I was taught the pre-trib rapture and just from reading what the Lord said in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 regarding “after the tribulation” several years ago, began to seriously question that view. I started researching the subject for myself, and one of the questions was regarding what Paul said in 1 Corinthians regarding “the last trumpet” that moment when the dead will be raised. Cross referencing the word trumpet and all that is said about trumps or trumpets in the Word of God is enlightening, I promise you, especially in view of the fact that he said our “change” will come only after the last trump.

Then the word “tribulation” itself: it is interesting how so many people want to talk about the “wrath of God” that is to be poured out according to the book of Revelation and confuse that with the word “tribulation”. But if you will look up the word tribulation and the Greek word that is translated tribulation and/or affliction in the New Testament, you will find that it is almost used exclusively in relation to Christians and or saints of God.

By the law of first mention that first time in scripture is most telling of how God uses “tribulation”. It is enlightening regarding the church at this time, and in our country. Deuteronomy 4:30 shows how God uses tribulation(s) is to bring His people back to Him. In fact the whole book of Judges is one account after another of that very thing.

In the New Testament, the Lord Himself is the One who mentions tribulation in relation to the saints of God repeatedly. The first mention outside the Gospels is where Paul strengthens the church with this admonition:
Acts 14:22 (KJV) 22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

The two exceptions where “tribulation” is used in conjunction with what the world suffers is Romans 2:9, and 2Thessalonians 1:6 where Paul says that it is righteous justice with God to recompense tribulations to those who have troubled the saints… And that concurs with the praise to the Lord by the angels for His righteous judgments: Revelation 16:5 - 7 (KJV) 5And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

The Word of God clearly teaches that the saints of God are not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9)… that is, the wrath of God; but the Word of God does not at any time in the Biblical account (also borne out through church history) promise us an escape from the wrath of man, which is most definitely, tribulation (in fact it was the very kind the Lord suffered). And it does not by any means teach that we will escape the wrath of the devil:
Revelation 12:12 (NKJV) 12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

There is also no getting around the fact that those we call the “heroes of the faith” in Hebrews 11, suffered tribulation. And there is no getting around the fact that for the past couple of decades outside the U. S. the Christians have been going through severe tribulations. Can it get worse? It most definitely will according to what the Lord Himself said.
Mark 13:20 (NKJV) 20And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Not, “no souls”, but “no flesh”!

My final point is this as some have already stated. I would rather be prepared for the long hall when many will be saying as the Lord said they would “the Lord has delayed his coming”, than to have my hopes built up in an imminent escape.

Proverbs 13:12 (NKJV) 12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But when the desire comes, it is a tree of life.

May we all be ready whatever it costs and whenever He comes!

Sincerely desiring revival and ingathering of the harvest before He does,

Clint
:-)

Greetings Dear Saints in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro David you wrote:

I know art is a favorite on S.I. but this Apostolic manifesto quote seems out in left field.Where is the church suppose to tie in to animal sacrifice with the jews rebuilding their temple?
Already churches are observing jewish feasts and covering thier heads with levitical prayer shouls.
Some even have the ark on the platform.

this is a good question which needs to be looked at and i believe that Ezekiel chapters 36 onwards explains quite well the necessity of a 3rd temple (as well as portions of the Revelation and Paul's letters) and sacrifices being offered for ISrael. Now the interesting thing about it all is this, in Ezekiel 36 God says that He will set David over His people when He brings them back into the land. We know Ezekiel lived during the days of Daniel in the Babylonian exile, well after David had died and yet God speaks of David once more ruling over Israel, this has yet to come to pass folks. Also this rule of David precedes the Gog and Magog war which may well be the war in which the enemy's armies gather at armageddon, although there are some details of both wars which are a bit different so they could be 2 distinct conflicts. Anyhow during the reign of this David, Israel is at peace and so this i believe firmly to be the Millenial Reign of Jesus from Jerusalem. Additionally, there is mention in Ezekiel 40 and 41 of the dimensions of the temple and details concerning it and so on. Later on in Ezekiel there is talk of the David a.k.a. the prince making sacrifices for the nation including sin offerings.

Ezekiel 44 says this:

[b][color=0000FF]1 And he causeth me to turn back the way of the gate of the outer sanctuary that is looking eastward, and it is shut. 2 And Jehovah saith unto me, `This gate is shut, it is not opened, and none doth go in by it, for Jehovah, God of Israel, hath come in by it, and it hath been shut. 3 The prince, who [is] prince, he sitteth by it to eat bread before Jehovah, by the way of the porch of the gate he cometh in, and by its way he goeth out.'.[/color] [/b]

this is the same as this in Ezekiel 37:

[b][color=0000FF]25 And they have dwelt on the land that I gave to My servant, to Jacob, In which your fathers have dwelt, And they have dwelt on it, they and their sons, And their son's sons -- unto the age, And David My servant [is] their prince -- to the age. 26 And I have made to them a covenant of peace, A covenant age-during it is with them, And I have placed them, and multiplied them, And placed My sanctuary in their midst -- to the age.[/color][/b]

it is also important to note that there is no time whatsoever at which the temple on earth is rendered obsolete until [i][b]after[/b][/i] the Millenial Reign. The temple is in Heaven also:

Rev 22 says:

[b][color=0000FF]22 And a sanctuary I did not see in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, is its sanctuary, and the Lamb, 23 and the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they may shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp of it [is] the Lamb;[/color][/b]

that is an excerpt from the description of the City as John saw it. Clearly there is a temple on earth:

from Rev 11:

[b][color=0000FF]1 And there was given to me a reed like to a rod, and the messenger stood, saying, `Rise, and measure the sanctuary of God, and the altar, and those worshipping in it; 2 and the court that is without the sanctuary leave out, and thou mayest not measure it, because it was given to the nations, and the holy city they shall tread down forty-two months[/color][/b]

this 42 months is the great tribulation and the Holy City we know is Jerusalem and it will be overrun for 42 months. Also this ties into the war over Jerusalem at which antichrist is defeated and Jesus returns.

anyhow continuing on with Ezekiel: chapt 45 speaks about the dividing of the land and talks also of the sacrifices which will be required.

45 then says this:

[b][color=0000FF]And on the prince are the burnt-offerings, and the present, and the libation, in feasts, and in new moons, and in sabbaths, in all appointed times of the house of Israel: he doth make the sin-offering, and the present, and the burnt-offering, and the peace-offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel.[/color][/b]

another interesting tidbit of info is here in Ezekiel 48:

[b][color=0000FF]And these [are] the names of the tribes: From the north end unto the side of the way of Hethlon, at the coming in to Hamath, Hazar-Enan, the border of Damascus northward, unto the side of Hamath, and they have been his -- side east and west, Dan one,[/color][/b]

Damascus? when was the last time Israel had posession of Damascus?David had a garrison there but after the kingdom split, the Arameans ruled it thereafter...this is yet future.

Dear saints, what is happenning here with the church and Israel is very interesting and perhaps not as simple as we had thought or been taught. i think it is also interesting to note that we are grafted into ISrael and so what God is doing must also be considered in light of the relationship to Israel. God isn't so much against the sacrificing of animals as He is against the rotten spirit in which it was often practised, that is why He hated the sacrifices. He Himself gave the ordinances so it is not that He hates the idea, it's His idea, but rather that men perverted something He meant to draw men nearer to Himself and made it a profane thing. that even happens today, we may not sacrifice but our words, deeds and thoughts are too often not of a pleasing kind to God, done in the same spirit as the sacrifices of old.

some things to chew on here...bro David i hope that as you consider Ezekiel 36 onward that God makes it plain to you what He's doing and asnwers your concerns about all this, i'm seeking Him on this also so may God make it plain to us all.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.

p.s. we're soon to find out if the rapture is pre/post trib. if Israel is once more destroyed as some of us believe which would allow for Ezekiel 36's return to the land on God's terms, then the rapture will be a bit further off...

This document is offered to clearly and biblically expose the error of the "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" teaching. The two main scriptures that tell of the "Rapture" (1Th. 4:16-17 and 1Cor: 15:52) clearly and distinctly declare the timing of the, gathering, or calling up of faithful Christ followers that are alive at that time.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The last statement in 1Th: 4-16 states "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (Resurrection of the just) 1Th: 4-17 begins with the statement "Then we which are alive and \tremain shall be caught up.." ( The Rapture)

1 Cor: 15-52 states first " and the dead shall be raised incorruptible" (Resurrection of the just) \tand continues to say "and we will be changed" (Rapture)

Absolutely clear in these scriptures is the FACT that a resurrection of the just, (Luke 14:14)
proceeds the Rapture, or the Catching up of the Church/Body of Christ. The first general, resurrection of the Saints is recorded in Rev:20:4-5.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Clearly included in this resurrection are those that;

"and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;"

This first resurrection includes those Saints that were beheaded for their witness by the "beast" of Rev. 13., an event that happens DURING the tribulation period, thus a Pre-Tribulation "rapture" of the Church is not supported by scripture.

It is vital that teachers of the Word have a clear, and correct presentation, as they will be held to a higher standard by our Lord.

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Blessings Greg
:-(

edit: There are some here who have stated that the timing of the rapture event is not clear, and could not be "proven". I believe that scripture is absolutely clear in the timing of this event!

1Th.4:16c "The dead in Christ shall rise first" **resurrection of the just, or FIRST resurrection Rev.20:4-5

1Th.4:17a "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up"
**Rapture

**Millennium or thousand year reign of Christ

**Second resurrection of the dead for judgment following the millennium. Rev.20:5

Angyl wrote:

There, the "falling away", our pastor pointed out, that many believe that is speaking of apostasy in the church...a falling away from the truth. The original Greek for that phase is apostos or something like that...can't remember exactly what,

BUT!!

Pastor Cowling pointed out that the actual meaning of that word is akin to "a departure" or a LEAVING.

Basically, interpreting the verse to meaning that these things will not take place until after...THE DEPARTURE (rapture).

This is not taling about the rapture, the "snatching away" or in Greek, the αρπάζω = harpazō (har-pad'-zo).

Hi Smokey...

edit: There are some here who have stated that the timing of the rapture event is not clear, and could not be "proven". I believe that scripture is absolutely clear in the timing of this event!

1Th.4:16c "The dead in Christ shall rise first" **resurrection of the just, or FIRST resurrection Rev.20:4-5

1Th.4:17a "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up"

I lean toward a "pre-trib" rapture. I am not completely certain of "pre-trib" and I would never force it down the throat of another believer. I would also never question the spiritual condition of those who do or do not believe in a similar manner. This is by no means a defense of such a position. Rather, I am a testament to a believer -- motivated by truth -- who cannot see the timing of the rapture as being clearly and completely defined by the Scriptures.

I am bothered by the post-trib believers who feel that a belief in a pre-trib rapture indicates any of the following:

1. [b]"Easy" believism:[/b] It is easy to point a finger at believers who share different views than some of us. There are even some, like Brother Kato, who use "prophetic" rhetoric to almost indict the spiritual nature of a believer based upon their views about the timing and manner of the Lord's return. Some even use the word "deceived" when speaking of believers in "pre-trib." Just because a believer leans or is convinced of a "pre-trib" rapture is by no means an indication that the believer has a flawed relationship with Christ. To assume this is error. Rather, it can simply be indicative that such believers arrived at a different conclusion.

2. [b]Prosperity:[/b] While I lean toward a "pre-trib" rapture, I despise the methods, beliefs and manners of the modern "prosperity" message. A belief in a "pre-trib" rapture does not indicate that such believers feel that the Church will not experience heavy persecution or tribulation. Rather, these believers feel that the Church will be removed from the "hour" of tribulation of God's wrath -- just as Noah was protected from the flood, the Israelites were protected from the plagues, and Lot was protected from fire. During the tribulation, the seals will be opened and the trumpet judgments will be sounded. Multitudes will be destroyed by the BLANKET JUDGMENT OF GOD upon this world. In an instance, a third of the Earth and a third of the sea will be destroyed BY GOD. There can be no protection of believers from this. The "pre-trib" rapture is the removal of believers from such judgment of God. Until then, believers will endure the tribulations and persecutions of men and the devil (even as Job endured).

3. [b]"Pre-trib" believers are less than sincere:[/b] While this is usually not articulated as such, it is often implied within conversations and discussions. I have never met a pre-trib believer who holds such a belief in order to "feel good" about not having to go through tribulation. That is just plain silly. Most of the pre-trib believers that I know hold to their beliefs only after serious study. Yes, there are some who simply "believe because they are told." But the same thing can probably be said about many post-tribbers. Besides, most pre-trib believers are certainly aware of the tribulation that we must endure in this world. They simply distinguish between the wrath of men and Satan versus the wrath of God.

What makes me "lean" toward a pre-trib rapture?

There are several things. Here is the basic chronological breakdown of events as embraced by most pre-trib believers:

1.\t [b]Things get bad (worse) on Earth[/b] - Tribulation by mankind and Satan. Anti-Christ will possibly be revealed during this time (or immediately after the rapture).
2.\t[b]Rapture[/b] - Sudden, instantaneous “twinkling of an eye” catching away where “one is taken and another is left.”
3.\t[b]Great Tribulation[/b] – Three and a half or seven year “hour” in which all mankind must endure the multiplied wraths of man, Satan and God. During this time, many will be killed and many will be saved. Some will actually survive until the end.
4.\t[b]Second Coming[/b] – Christ returns in the clouds with the saints (while “every eye shall see” Him) at the great battle at Megiddo. Satan captured and bound. Christ sets up His Kingdom on Earth, setting us over as “rulers” over the world.
5.\t[b]Millennial Reign of Christ[/b] – We “rule” with Christ over the inhabitants of the world that are still alive. Death has been bound, so that a person will live in similar manner to Genesis.
6.\t[b]Last Battle[/b] – Satan is released for a short time to in order to try and deceive those living on Earth (including those alive from the Tribulation, and their descendants).
7.\t[b]Final Judgment[/b] – Satan captured. God judges all mankind. Death and Hell thrown into the Lake of Fire.
8.\t[b]Destruction/Recreation[/b] – The universe is destroyed (or at least the destruction of the Heavens and the Earth). God creates a New Heavens and a New Earth. We live with God for Eternity.

Besides the arguments in the meaning behind the verses that obviously speak about the coming of the Lord, there are several verses that seem to indicate a protection from God's wrath (Genesis 16:18-33, I Thessalonians 5:9, Revelation 3:10).

The timing of the Lord’s return is also a secret. Not even Christ is aware of His return, as this knowledge is only known by the Father (Mark 18:32). If Christ (who IS the Word of God) does not know the timing of His return (which seems to be fairly understood by believers as being either three and a half or seven years following the commencement of the Great Tribulation), then why should believers feel that they can justify such a belief? Perhaps Christ does not know the timing of the Rapture, but will fully know the timing of His return to the Earth? Likewise, believers are unaware of the timing of the Lord’s return (Matthew 24:42-44), even though we can realize the rapidity of it by the fulfillment of events around us (Hebrews 10:25).

An interesting verse for discussion is found in II Thessalonians 2:

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Anyway, it seems clear to me that the issue is not entirely clear. Whenever I speak to friends (both pre-trib and post-trib), I tell them that it is my opinion that all possible scenarios should be explained. But when it comes down to it, it really doesn’t matter to me. If the Lord chooses to “rescue” believers from the hour of His Wrath upon the Earth – so be it! If we are appointed to endure God’s wrath – so be it! Either way, we are privileged to know and fellowship with Christ! I am, however, bothered by those who want to point the finger of heresy at those with whom they disagree.

The bottom line is to always stay close to Christ. Then, come what may (whether we are appointed to suffer the wrath of man, Satan and/or God), we will still overcome in Christ!

:-)

Brethern
\tI really am not trying to cause dissension here, I am only trying to share an insight on this topic that woke me up bouncing around in my head at 3 in the morning last week. I thought that this passage of scripture was so crystal clear, that it would finally resolve this issue of the timing of the rapture. It appears that I was wrong, and in spite of the clear scriptural proof to support my post, there are those that will insist on holding to their personal beliefs on this matter. It is my hope that some here will receive a better understanding of this issue as they meditate, ponder, and pray over 1 Th.4:16-17.

\tI leave with only 1 question for those that hold to the hope of a pre-trib bail out.

Where in scripture is the resurrection of the "dead in Christ" that is documented in
1 Th.4:16, in a pre-trib scenario?

Blessings Greg

Hi Brother Smokey...

It appears that I was wrong, and in spite of the clear scriptural proof [b]to support my post[/b], there are those that will insist on holding [b]to their personal beliefs[/b] on this matter. It is my hope [b]that some here will receive a better understanding[/b] of this issue as they meditate, ponder, and pray over 1 Th.4:16-17.

I leave with only 1 question for those that hold [b]to the hope of a pre-trib bail out[/b].

Brother, I do not fully understand the timing of the rapture. You present a good argument for post-trib. But it is not a convincing argument to merit my acceptance of your "clear" understanding. To be clear, I do not "believe" in a pre-trib rapture. I simply [i]lean[/i] toward such a belief. I would never point the finger of "[i]heresy[/i]" or "[i]you believe deception[/i]" toward post-trib or no rapture believers.

I am almost convinced that we should NOT preach one way or the other. I believe that we should present all possible sides of Bible prophecy. We may tell the listener what we believe, but we should let the Lord do the rest. Unfortunately, many of these "timing of the Lord's return" debates become divisive. It is [i]not[/i] divisive simply because some do not heed to the words of one believer or another. Yet some quietly but sincerely divide the Body of Christ by those who "[i]understand the truth[/i]" and those who "[i]believe a deception[/i]." Is it possible that a sincere and earnest believer might lean toward a belief in a pre-trib rapture after years of earnest study? Yes.

Please don't get me wrong. I am not offended in the least. I am merely pointing out that that it can be insulting to insist that others hold some sort of pre-existing "bias" for a belief that might have been derived by honest and prayerful study.

There are some who feel that they must SHOUT OUT their beliefs (pre-trib, post-trib or NO rapture) because the Lord directs them to. But are we ("we," in general) really directed to call a disputable, non-essential doctrine a "heresy?" What is the damage of leaning toward a pre-trib rapture if we are well aware that immense tribulation and persecution can exist at the present time? What is the danger if we are aware that we MAY be appointed to suffer the wrath of God upon this Earth? What is the danger if we are sincerely seeking God's face and intimacy with Christ above all things?

Believers should feel free to "shout" their beliefs -- but they should not use their freedom to shout that their view on such an unclear matter is the only one that counts. Yes, it may be completely "clear" to someone; but oddly, it is not completely "clear" to others. We must not question the "spiritual ears" of those with whom we simply disagree.

If the Lord chooses to "rapture" his Bride BEFORE the period of God's wrath, then HALLELUJAH! We are still prepared to die for our Lord as we endure the tribulations and persecutions of this life.

If the Lord chooses that we should be appointed to suffer His wrath (and subsequently destruction) upon the Earth -- HALLELUJAH! What an honor it would be to die at the hands of God!

It makes me realize that death is so ridiculously important in the minds of some believers. Why should we fear death or suffering? They just shouldn't be very important when we are looking into the eyes of our Lord. I lean toward a pre-trib rapture, but I am more than willing to suffer -- even if that suffering must come from the wrath of God.

:-(

Excellent post!

Hi glorytogod…

This is my other concern, when there is no rapture and the second coming has not already come what will happen to those who have held to the belief that there is a rapture? I can see where these people will think that the rapture has already taken place and here they have been left behind. There are many who believe that they can lose thier salvation, maybe they will think they have lost it.
…
What happens when your sitting in a prison cell with a rapture believer who is losing their faith??? Will you still be so confident then in your rapture? Will you sit as confidently then as you sit now?

I would encourage you to search the scriptures so when you are sitting in that prison cell with another believer waiting to be martyred you will be able to comfort them.

Maybe that won't happen to you but what if it did? What if the one you are sitting next to is someone you have been teaching this rapture to? How will you feel then?

Of course, the answer is probably (and should be) NO!

I believe that ALL theories of Biblical prophecy should be taught to believers. True believers are certainly aware of the Word of God. If a pre-trib rapture never takes place, most believers would know the Word well enough to understand the signs occurring around them. Likewise, if the pre-trib rapture were to take place, those acquainted with the Word would probably be quite aware of the situation.

More importantly, I believe that our relationship with Christ is (and should be) strong enough to relieve those sort of fears. Even if a believer is taught exclusively that a “pre-trib rapture” will rescue the true Church from the coming wrath of God upon the Earth, then how will this cause a believer to lose his faith? Is our faith based upon our veiled understanding of Bible prophecy? Is it based upon our surroundings – including the men and events and how they interrelate with our lives? Or is our faith based upon our relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ? If no rapture were to take place before the “hour” of God’s wrath, will believers so quickly lose their faith? If they are prone to that, then I feel that they have a far greater problem than the fear of death or a misunderstanding of Biblical prophecy.

There are huge consequences when you teach others there will be this so called rapture without any scripture to back it up with. It looks so innocent and harmless but what happens when all of these things start taking place and people are wanting to get out of here?

Are you still so confident?

HE_Reigns provided a well-thought defense for her belief regarding the timing of the Lord’s return. Still, I do not completely “buy” into this rationale, because I don’t quite agree with the relation between the trumpets and “day” of the Lord’s return and the chronological order of the Word. There are several trumpets listed in the Word of God and there are several events known Scripturally as the “Day of the Lord.”

Again, there are some “post-trib” or “no-rapture” believers who accuse believers of “pre-trib” as being guilty of “easy-believism” or adherents to the “prosperity gospel.” While this can be true in some cases, it is not the standard by which to judge the belief (just like pre-trib believers should not lump all post-trib believers with neo-charismatic “prophets” like Brother Kato Mivule). There are many sincere holiness and non-prosperity preachers out there who believe in or lean toward a “pre-trib rapture.”

Even today, believers around the world are still persecuted, tortured and martyred for Jesus. This has been the case since the beginning. Even now, a believer somewhere in the world is facing unfathomable tribulation. A belief in a “pre-trib rapture” will never change that. The difference in the scope of such persecution as compared to that which will come after a pre-trib rapture is that one tribulation comes from the hands of man (and Satan) while the other is resultant from the blanket wrath of God upon the Earth. Will God slay a third of the Earth that is at least partially inhabited by his children? If he wouldn’t do this in the case of Noah or Lot, what makes us think that He will do this to us in the End?

Once more, let me reiterate that I do not BELIEVE in pre-trib. I simply lean in that direction. I have always felt that all possible scenarios should be explored and taught by believers. I am amazed, however, with the amount of time and effort that is spent by some to attack both the belief of a “pre-trib rapture” and the underlying reasons that believers might be inclined to believe in such a manner.

I once heard a preacher speak against the evils of men wearing jeans or shorts. Part of his argument included the “better safe than sorry” perspective. He said that, if he is wrong, then he will still be in Heaven with all of the jeans and shorts wearers. But if he is right, then the wearers of jeans and shorts have a lot to worry about concerning Hellfire. I’ve heard similar “better safe than sorry” arguments used in defense of many Church-related doctrines (including the rapture). But the bottom line for anything will always be our relationship with God. Is that relationship so weak that we would lose faith over something like the timing of the Lord’s return?

If the pre-trib rapture did not take place, believers are already aware that they should have faith in Christ and Christ alone. They should already be aware of false signs and lying wonders (already taking place) and be on their guard against “wolves in sheep’s clothing.” They should already be willing to suffer for the cause of Christ, and never compromise their faith on the altar of “peaceful living” or “prosperity.”

I read a pretty good article the other day in defense of pre-trib perspective. If I find it, I might include it within this discussion.

:-)

Oops...multiple post!

:-?

Excellent post and I agree as noted on other posts.

I would add this question to those who persist that they are going to be rescued from what so many millions of others have not. Who are the saints of God? It is not the wrath of God that God is warning his saints about, but Tribulation.

Who are these in these texts: Daniel 7:25 - 26 (KJV) 25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Revelation 13:7 - 8 (KJV) 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Clint

Make that agreement with glorytoglory... my post was too slow.

Although the Great Tribulation according to what the Lord described in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 is about how "they" are treating "us", the deceptions rampant, the betrayals, the murder of the righteous and etc. there is precedent in the time of Israel for the death of the righteous along with the wicked when the wrath of God is poured out. For the righteous it would merely mean, "to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ".

Ezekiel 21:3 - 5 (KJV) 3And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked. 4Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: 5That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.

clint

Hi broclint...

Although the Great Tribulation according to what the Lord described in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 is about how "they" are treating "us", the deceptions rampant, the betrayals, the murder of the righteous and etc. there is precedent in the time of Israel for the death of the righteous along with the wicked when the wrath of God is poured out. For the righteous it would merely mean, "to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ".

But I think that it goes mentioning that there is a world of difference between persecution and tribulations of man and/or Satan and the coming Wrath of God that will blanket entire portions of the Earth. Mankind and Satan have always persecuted believers. This was true of the early Church. This was true of the believers during the Inquisition. This is currently true for believers in Communist, Islamic and other pagan nations. Pre-trib believers are aware that this sort of persecution will not only exist after the rapture -- but it will thrive! However, this is not the Wrath of God.

The Wrath of God consists of God's trumpet and bowl judgments that will be poured out in a non-discriminate upon the entire Earth. Will righteous believers fall at the hands of God's wrath -- even though we are not appointed such wrath? Historically, God provided a way of escape for the righteous from His wrath. The Old Testament contains instances where God spared individuals from His wrath by providing a way of escape. This came in the form of the messengers' removal of Lot and his family, the Ark of Noah, and the Passover during the last plague. In each of these, God provided a way of escape. It is reflective of God's nature and wholeness in regards to justice. If God suddenly destroys a third of the Earth in an instance, how will believers escape?

:-)

Hi glorytogod…

You are surrounding scripture with something that doesn't even exist and pretending that it does.

Were all accountable and I have nothing more to add. This is just to warn those of you that are teaching a rapture that there are great consequences and we are all accountable if we knowingly teach something that we know could do great damage to others without any true conviction.

Like I said search the scriptures. If you are willing to believe this without any proof whatsoever and there is none what other trap will you fall into?

There are, of course, “consequences” for EVERYTHING that we teach. This includes exclusive “pre-trib” messages and exclusive “post-trib” messages – and those who feel the need to attack the motives of those with whom they disagree. I’ve never advocated the teaching of one possibility of Biblical prophecy. I feel that all believers need to be aware of the possible scenarios concerning the Lord’s return. But do you need to sink to the use of this sort of “my way is truth” rhetoric that dismisses the heartfelt views of others? Do you see how ridiculous such a remark sounds?

I have to obey God and usually I let others believe what they want but the Lord says speak and I speak.

:-(

Quote: The Wrath of God consists of God's trumpet and bowl judgments that will be poured out in a non-discriminate upon the entire Earth. Will righteous believers fall at the hands of God's wrath -- even though we are not appointed such wrath?

If you will notice in the times of Jeremiah and Ezekiel and many others, there were those who were righteous who “died” while God was pouring out His wrath upon the ungodly… the vast difference is (since we all die), that they died saved, whereas as the wrath of God falls in the Revelation, to those few who are not already killed and those few who will still hear the voice of God (as in the times of Pharaoh and Egypt), God still extends His mercy as the reluctant judge, even in the midst of the holocaust so that (as those Egyptians who were moved with fear began to believe Moses) we find as late as the 18th chapter
Revelation 18:4 - 6 (NKJV) 4And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.

:-) clint

Hi glorytogod…

Ok so you want to continue this conversation, you actually want to try and prove a rapture with no scripture?

You want to convince me of a word that doesn't exist in the bible and than place it in the bible saying this is that?

When does it ever get to the point that you realize that you are not striving with man but God?

I never said I am always right or I am always perfect. I am saying that if you are going to teach others you have to prove and canvince me and that is by presenting scripture and keeping it in context with the rest of the word of God. You cannot just go around throwing around verses brother.

What is the difference in throwing around verses here rather than anywhere else? The difference is here:

2 Timothy 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Were not talking about OSAS or baptism preference were talking about overthrowing the faith of some.

I showed you verbatim what I believe now I want to see what you believe. Show me start to finish the second coming of the Lord and where you fit in your rapture. Than show me where in the bible is this rapture mentioned. Remember that you have to have atleast TWO VERSES to prove your theory.

You are going to be hard pressed to find one.

Anyway, I leave you with [u]two[/u] passages:

I Thessalonians 5:1-9

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:10-11
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Oh, and in regards to...

BEING CONVINCED ONLY BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE IS CONVINCED CAN BE MISLEADING AND DECEPTIVE.

Hi Brother glorytogod...

YOUR REPLY HAS JUST PROVEN MY POINT EXACTLY.
So these are the two verses you want to show me that prove there is an extra catching away (rapture)in scripture and still where in these two verses is it exactly taking place?

THANK YOU, NOW YOU HAVE JUST PROVEN MY POINT EXACTLY THAT THERE ISN'T A RAPTURE. THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE IS THERE?

YOU WANT TO PROVE TO EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD THERE IS A RAPTURE AND THAT IS ALL YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE ME? DON'T YOU THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE CONCRETE EVIDENCE IN THE WORD OF GOD?

As I said before, I am currently at work, and have little time to open up to serious debate. However, I will present a little article in my next post that I read yesterday.

Thank you, and may the Lord bless you.

:-)

[i]This is an article that I read yesterday concerning a defense of the “Pre-Trib rapture.” While I might not agree with everything that is included, it does provide a good foundation for what pre-tribbers believe in regards to the Lord’s coming. As is, I lean toward a belief in a Pre-Trib rapture, but I am prepared to come what may!
-Chris [/i]

[b]A Defense of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture[/b]
By Todd Strandberg

After reading countless messages and articles that attack the pre-trib rapture, I've noticed a certain number of arguments that are repeatedly sent to me.

Instead of trying to answer every individual e-mail I receive, I thought it would be a good idea to create a web page that addresses the most commonly mentioned points of debate. This way, I can avoid repeating myself so many times; thereby, maintain my sanity.

[b]Nowhere in the Bible, can you find the word "rapture" [/b]

It amazes me that some folks write to me, questioning the validity of the rapture, simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible.

With 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 giving us such a clear description of the rapture, you would have to conclude that some people are just playing games with the Word of God. I could change the name of my site to “Catching Up Ready” to satisfy these folks, but I hardly think that would improve things.

Their logic fails because there are a huge number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that no English words are in the Bible. Let's take a look at I Thessalonians 4:16-18 in the Greek:

[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Th&chapter=4&verse=16&version=KJV#16]Verse 16[/url]

[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Th&chapter=4&verse=17&version=KJV#17]Verse 17[/url]

I don't see the dead in Christ rising, Jesus descending from heaven, and us meeting Him in the air. So the cynics are right: the word "rapture" is nowhere to be found. All I see is Greek gobbledygook, and "[i]It's greek to me[/i]."

For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo," which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. You can call it the “rapture,” the “rapturo,” or the “caught up” -- it's all the same thing.

[b]Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation. [/b]

Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, "[i]Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation[/i]." Remember, there is a distinct difference between the historic tribulation of believers on the Earth and the time of God’s wrath upon the Earth. Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.

[b]The Margaret MacDonald Origin [/b]

One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a “demonic vision,” passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "[i]For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins[/i]."

One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.

[b]The Last Trumpet Argument [/b]

Because Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16, said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Matthew 24:31 -- which all occur during the tribulation.

When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think it's foolish to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case.

In the movies [i]Ben-Hur[/i] and [i]The Ten Commandments[/i], I recall hearing the sounding of trumpets. Are both these trumpets somehow prophetically related?

If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.

With such a blind devotion to this one similarity, I have to wonder if these last-tumpeters are able to distinguish the difference between Tylenol and Ex-Lax. They're both over-the-counter drugs, they come in pill form, and they can also be found in a medicine cabinet. Of course, one will make your headache disappear and the other will make your toilet paper disappear.

Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Revelation 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?

Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:

[b]1.[/b] Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."

[b]2.[/b] According to 1 Corinthians 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says “the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand.” In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Corinthians there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.

[b]3.[/b] The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.

When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong -- that they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.

[b]The Day of the Lord Argument[/b]

A number people have attempted to refute the pre-trib rapture by trying to associate the "Day of the Lord" with a catching-up of believers at the end of the tribulation. They base their rapture views solely on the idea that the "Day of the Lord" and the rapture are either synonymous or somehow linked together.

The Achilles heel of their argument has to be the notion that the "Day of the Lord" and various other "days" of an end-time context refers to a 24 hour period that occurs at or near the end of the tribulation. Probably the most commonly cited verse is 1 Thessalonians 5:2 where Paul tells us the "Day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night."

I've read countless articles that describe the "Day of the Lord" as Christ's advent at Armageddon. These articles go on to say that, because Paul also tells us the Lord will come "as a thief," we have a direct link to the same description that is applied to noted rapture verses.

It's rather obvious that those trying to rely on the "Day of the Lord" never bothered to validate the meaning of this particular day. I've checked a number of commentaries on the "Day of the Lord" and many of them define this as being an all-encompassing period that begins with the Great Tribulation. Let's examine some verses that clearly indicate that the term "day" is used to represent a broader time period.

[b]II Peter 3:10-13[/b]
The "Day of the Lord" Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Revelation 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.
[b]Joel 2:11-20[/b]
The "Day of the Lord" that Joel describes includes the defeat of the northern army. Ezekiel 38 and 39 is parallel passage. Most scholars would time the destruction of the Gog army as occurring before in the first half of the tribulation.
[b]John 12:48[/b]
In the book of John, Jesus uses the term "last day" to indicate when the lost would be judged. Revelation 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium -- yet another 1000 year gap.
[b]Hebrews 10:25[/b]
One of the best indications that most of the various “day” references are citing a general time period can be found in Hebrews 10:25: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

Surely, Paul would not be warning us to watch for a day that would be coming at the end of the tribulation. That type of logic would be like warning children, as they cross the road, to watch out for tail lights.

[b]The First Resurrection [/b]

I've heard some folks say, "There cannot be a pre-trib rapture because to have one would require a second resurrection at Christ's return to earth." This conclusion is drawn from Revelation 20:
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:5-6).

One pre-trib writer, explaining this passage, said, "The first did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind." The first resurrection was for God's people the second will be for the unsaved.

A quick way to shoot down the notion that the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12).

Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the latter half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.

[b]Confusion over Confusion: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-6 [/b]

Because Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre-trib rapture.

To quell the Thessalonians’ misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed. By telling them they had no reason to panic, Paul is clearly disputing the idea that the Thessalonians could someday find themselves facing the tribulation hour.

I'm constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks' consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event--the second coming--they're unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages.

Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," and Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

[b]Reverse Logic Stuck In Reverse [/b]

Many people are against the pre-trib rapture simply because they see it as being the dominant view on the timing of Christ's return for the Church. The anti-pretribulationists often think they are the last remaining true believers. I'm simply dumbfounded over why some people choose rebellion against the majority view as their guide for finding truth.

The measurement of popularity alone is a terrible way to determine something's validity. It is particularly strange when people solely rely on the contrarian view to judge truth from fiction. I utilize contrarian views all the time to help determine what is truthful; however, it would be a terrible mistake on my part if I made Contrarianism the core foundation of any of my beliefs.

If you're using reverse logic, you need to support your conclusions. The vast majority of the population would agree that apples grow on apple trees and cherries grow on cheery trees. The pure novelty of the opposite being true does not in any way help make it so. Unless you see farmers gluing apples onto cherry trees or picking cherries from apple trees, you have no basis to think that these two fruits do not grow on anything but the trees that share the same name.

Some people are clearly more in love with the idea of a conspiracy than they are the truth. Every time an airplane crashes to the earth there's someone who will proclaim it was caused by anything from an act of terrorism to a bizarre government plot. It's just not exciting enough to say it was a mechanical problem that led to the crash.

The idea that the pre-trib rapture is the dominant view is not correct in the first place. Most evangelicals would say they look for a pre-trib rapture, but if you include all Christians, pretribulationists would rank third behind post-trib and preterist adherents.

[b]Persecute Me Please [/b]

You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns.

Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These tribulation saint wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and His disciples suffered persecution, we should expect no better." It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally the ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven.

I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers might escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).

In one regard, people who think the Church will go through the tribulation are somewhat correct. I believe there will be a huge number of "carnal Christians" that will find themselves left behind. By having the rapture before the tribulation, all those who find themselves facing the wrath of God will be without an excuse.

[b]No Secret Rapture [/b]

"There is no secret rapture" is the beginning declaration of a large percentage of messages that attack the rapture. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting scriptural evidence. A few people will cite Rev 1:17, "every eye shall see him," as proof that the rapture will not be a secret event. Of course, I would immediately note that "every eye shall see him" is the second coming.

I have a hard time understanding how these folks could think pre-tribulationists preach a secret rapture. We seem to be doing our very best to popularize the rapture before it takes place. I doubt that, afterwards, with all the car wrecks, plane crashes, and missing persons’ reports, the rapture will remain a secret occurrence.

The only people I know who are attempting to keep the pre-trib rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post-trib folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope."

[b]No Imminency [/b]

Because an imminent or any moment rapture is one of the major teachings of pre-tribulationists, opponents of this view attempt to dismantle the immanency of the rapture.

Although Jesus said, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Mat 24:42), advocates for knowing the "day" will claim this only applies to the unsaved. I hear arguments like, "Surely a loving father would tell his own children when he's coming for them."

To try to get around "no man knoweth the hour," a popular scripture often cited is: "But yea brethren, are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Despite all their monkeying with scripture, pre-trib detractors just cannot escape Jesus' restriction against knowing the timing of the rapture. In fact, our Lord was so restrictive about the rapture, He said its occurrence would come as a total surprise. "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44).

Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming.

[b]The Restrainer[/b]

In 2 Thessalonians the Apostle Paul speaks of a "he" that will restrain the advent of the Antichrist. The restrainer's removal is required before the Antichrist can be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

A debate has erupted over the identity of the Restrainer because if this "he" is the Holy Ghost, the only real explanation for his removal would be the rapture of the Church, which is indwelled by him. The strongest argument offered against the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer is the belief that if God's Spirit was ever removed from the earth, no one could then be saved. The removal of the Holy Ghost does not have to be an all or nothing proposition. I believe his being "taken out of the way" will only be a degree of removal.

Before the Church Age, people were able to find salvation, which obviously meant the Holy Spirit was at work on earth. When the outpouring of the Holy Ghost occurred at Pentecost, we didn't have a second Holy Spirit come to earth. His removal at the rapture will only be a reversal or ending of the Pentecostal outpouring.

[b]Replacement Theology [/b]

Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation, and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them.

Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.

Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention.

To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign. "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14).

"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).

[i]I might create this article as a separate thread, since I feel that it might detract from the original intent of this thread. I certainly feel that it merits discussion. – Chris[/i]

:-)

Hi Brother glorytogod...

Let me reiterate:

YOUR REPLY HAS JUST PROVEN MY POINT EXACTLY.
So these are the two verses you want to show me that prove there is an extra catching away (rapture)in scripture and still where in these two verses is it exactly taking place?

THANK YOU, NOW YOU HAVE JUST PROVEN MY POINT EXACTLY THAT THERE ISN'T A RAPTURE. THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE IS THERE?

YOU WANT TO PROVE TO EVERYONE ON THIS BOARD THERE IS A RAPTURE AND THAT IS ALL YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE ME? DON'T YOU THINK YOU SHOULD HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE CONCRETE EVIDENCE IN THE WORD OF GOD?

...

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

STRAWMAN!!! Sorry, I knew an article off the internet with no scripture was on it's way. Good try though brother, I have to head off to work now.

I'm still waiting for you to answer me.I know you can't though so I don't expect you to anytime in the near future. So I'm signing off this thread which is leading to nowhere's land.

As I said before, I am currently at work, and have little time to open up to serious debate. However, I will present a little article in my next post that I read yesterday.

Thank you, and may the Lord bless you.

:-)

While I told you that I was going to include an article, it is definitely NOT reflective of a "[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man]strawman[/url]" argument. I also feel that there is plenty of Scripture within the short article that I included. In the future, I ask you to please be careful of mockery, however.

Hi glorytoglory...

Sorry Chris, I really wasn't laughing at you but I have been through this so many times with others and they do the same thing you just did, hand me an article by someone else.

While I might not agree with everything included within the article, it does present the view of many people leaning toward a belief in a "pre-trib rapture." The article considers the accusation (found within this thread) that a "pre-trib" rapture was the result of a young girl's dream or "vision" in the 19th Century, as well as your own remarks about using a word ("rapture") that does not appear in the English version of Scripture.

I only asked you two questions and that is to

#1 Show me where in the bible it mentions a rapture
#2 Where exactly in the bible is the rapture

...and just two verses to back it up with, that's all.

In addition, I included two verses that at least indicate to me the possibility of the Lord providing exemption to believers from the wrath that the Lord will pour indiscriminately upon the entire Earth. The passage found in I Thessalonians 5 is speaking specifically about the events of the last days. The ninth verse seems to indicate such an exemption: “[i] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.[/i]” The second passage, from the third chapter of Revelation, seems to indicate at least a similar protection: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.[/i] (Revelation 3:9-10)” Believers in a “pre-trib” rapture seem to feel that this verse merits an exemption of God’s people from the blanket judgment of God upon the Earth.

While the Bible is filled with instances in which God’s people were forced to withstand the afflictions and tribulations of this world, I am hard pressed to find a single instance in which God poured out his own wrath upon a person. We can endure the God-permitted wiles of Satan (as in the story of Job) or the persecution poured out by the people of this world. However, I can’t seem to find a single passage in Scripture that is indicative of God killing the righteous along with the unrighteous.

God is just. It is my opinion that the blood of Christ makes us righteous. This blood exempts believers from God’s judgment. This is the same concept that prevented God from killing Noah while the rest of the world perished in the flood. It is the same concept that prevented God from killing Lot while the rest of the world perished in the flood. It is the same concept that prevented God from killing Moses, Aaron and those who utilized the blood of a lamb just prior to the great exodus. It is this sort of “justice” that I believe will prevent God from killing his own while his wrath is poured out upon the Earth. During this time, immeasurable destruction will be applied upon entire vast geographic sections of the world. It would be impossible for anyone to escape. Yet the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of such temptations while still reserving the unjust for judgment (2 Peter 2:9). We read in 2 Peter 2:4-9…

[b]4[/b] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
[b] 5[/b] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
[b]6[/b] And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
[b] 7[/b] And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
[b] 8[/b] (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
[b] 9[/b] The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.

[b]36[/b]But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[b]37[/b] But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[b]38[/b] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[b] 39[/b] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[b] 40[/b] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[b] 41[/b]Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[b]42[/b] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
[b] 43[/b] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
[b] 44[/b] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The “pre-trib rapture,” as defined by such believers, consists of a time in which the Lord will appear and suddenly and instantly remove “catch away” His people in the “twinkling of an eye.” At this time, the Church is “taken” [u]from[/u] this world. Like the Jewish weddings of the 1st Century, the Bridegroom would come suddenly and without warning and remove the Bride (who has made herself ready) from her abode (Matthew 25:6-10, Ephesians 5:32). He would then take her home where He has “prepared a place” for her (John 14:1-3).

I am not trying to persuade you (or anyone for that matter) about the existence of a “pre-tribulation rapture.” In fact, I don’t even BELIEVE that the “rapture” will necessarily occur in a “pre-trib” manner. Rather, I am simply trying to make you (and others) aware that the issue is not so cut-and-dry “clear.” In fact, I don’t even concern myself too much with ascertaining the exact timing and manner of the Lord’s return. The apostles were warned “[i] It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power[/i]” (Acts 1:7). There are some things that are far less essential than the present joy of knowing and fellowshipping with Christ. We should always keep our relationship with Christ as the most treasured possession we have. And with that relationship, we should be prepared for anything (even persecution or death). Keith Green used to say that we should “[i]Pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib[/i].” If we are appointed to suffer the coming wrath of God upon this Earth – then PRAISE GOD! If we are exempt from suffering His wrath – then PRAISE GOD! Either way, we win because we are intimate with our Lord. Nothing on Earth can separate us from that!

I just wanted to apologize though. I really wasn't laughing at you and this is definately not a laughing matter that this is being taught today apart from the word of God I feel.

Luke 21:
[b]35 [/b]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
[b] 36 [/b]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I Thessalonians 1:
[b] 10[/b] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Romans 5:
[b]9[/b] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Isaiah 26:
[b]20[/b] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
[b]21[/b] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The difference between a sudden, unannounced “catching away” and the gathering of those remaining for the Second Coming:
Matthew 24:
[b]29[/b] “Immediately [u]after the tribulation of those days[/u] the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
[b]30[/b] Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [u]they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory[/u].
[b]31[/b] And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

:-)