Out of Church Christians

I read an article at this site and I felt lead by the Lord to post it on here for discussion:http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/00-Out-Of-Church.htmlI have a feeling just because I know my own heart and this being an internet community that this may be close to many peoples own lives on here.How many on here don't have a home church that they are active in with both their time, resources and their pocket book?I know for me I stayed out of the local church mainly out of pride, mammon (money), and an unrighteous sickness of the leadership of most churches. I felt sick with disgust for many of them and I wanted to let them know it because I truly hated them. If anything I wanted to deliver them a sermon to tell them off because they repulsed me. The last thing I wanted to do was to submit to authority (a part of that being giving a tithe to this authority.)I was a loner for the Lord and I could make it on my own and I didn't need these pharisees meddling in my business. My money could be better used elsewhere as I could see it. These churches manufactured a false Christianity or a Phariseeism that I was well aquanted with growing up. Lots of Godly words and deeds but know power.I needed an attitude adjustment. In reality my religous loner mentality was nothing more then having money as my idol in life and my fear was truly getting to know God or man. Any bad excuse of Christian behaviour I could find in the local body served my purpose to remain unsubmitted to the local God ordained biblical requirement that we submit ourselves to the established elders of the church. (Read Titus)So anyone man enough to admit they are an Out-Of-Church Christain on here?If so what is the real reason that you remain a church hopper? If God has commanded us in His word to submit to the local elders and leadership of the Church then what excuse can you give and for how long can you give it? A few weeks, few months, a few years, how long does it have to go before you become an active member in a church? What does that say about you if you refuse to be active in a local church body with established leadership in place?

ok, i will be "man" (even though I am a girl :) enough to admit that our family has been out of what most people would consider the "church system" for about 3 years now.Yes, we have tried a few in between.No, i don't really have any excuses.And yes, I do believe we are being led by the Lord.And yes, I have had plenty of attitude adjustments even while out of the church. When you live a life surrendered to the Lord- you can't help but get His chastisment when ever He sees fit. It is very important to our family to do the Lord's will.I must admit that my family and i have grown (spiritually) tremendously more since we've been out than when we go.For us, it has nothing to do with authority, it has to do with "truth". In His love, Chanin

Hi Aslieren,I know the man who wrote that article as we have discussed this topic at length. You wrote:I know for me I stayed out of the local church mainly out of pride, mammon (money), and an unrighteous sickness of the leadership of most churches. I felt sick with disgust for many of them and I wanted to let them know it because I truly hated them. If anything I wanted to deliver them a sermon to tell them off because they repulsed me. Whoa! Are you really serious here? I assume you are, but what changed your mind and caused you to see how you were really feeling? Surely you were not conscious of these feeling as you were living day to day; or were you? I'm not being judgmental at all, I am just trying to understand WHY you were so blazing mad? Me and many of my friends have tolerated all the same shortcomings and never got that upset; we simply sought the Lord and waited for Him to open doors. He opened them. There are still lots of problems; but that was true of a majority of the New Testament Churches mentioned in Scripture.Any bad excuse of Christian behaviour I could find in the local body served my purpose to remain unsubmitted to the local God ordained biblical requirement that we submit ourselves to the established elders of the church. (Read Titus)I have a term for this that I call "Spiritual Cannibalism." This is when our zeal is fed by anger at what is going on in the Church and not by the Holy Spirit. The problem with this is that if we follow it to it's logical conclusion we would backslide once all the problems in the Church are sorted out because there would be nothing left to feed our zeal. Remember, Jesus walks in the midst of the 7 Golden Candlesticks.I have a fairly big circle of friends that preach repentance or long for revival and they all have one common 'beef' with the Church; Compromise. But look at this little list for a minute and see if this makes any sense:1) One is upset because the music sounds like "rock" or is too contemporary.2) One is upset because the music is "old timey."3) One is upset because the Church is all about the money.4) One is in poverty and will not take up a traditional offering to combat this error in the church. 5) One group is mad over 'tongues in the Church'6) One believes tongues is the only evidence of genuine New Testament living7) One believes heads should always be covered.8) One is through with all "that legalism."9) One believes that they can listen to secular rock music.10) Others believe it's the "Straw that breaks the camels back." 11) One believes tithe should not be taught.12) One believes tithe is the Divine command.13) One believes there should be no hype in preaching!14) Another preaches a stirring message that gets the crowd saying AMEN! 15) One camp believes going to church is 'compromise.'16) One camp believes NOT going to church is evidence of backsliding.17) One believes in Eternal Security!18) Another believes in Lordship Salvation.19) One refuses ALL TV preachers.20) Another quotes from them in sermons. I could go on and on...What shall we say to these things beloved?I have found no real rhyme or reason even withing the message of REPENTANCE camp. What do we all agree upon? Will we say that one is in compromise if they do not agree with us? Because that is what I am hearing in many places and it has me quite concerned. God Bless,-Robert

I'm a "out-of-church" believer in Christ. Been there about 10 years now. We're not really "church hoppers" though cause I'm through shopping around trying to find the closest "church" to the Bible church. The Lord taught me he never was trying to build a "church" anyway but he was raising up a Called-Out Body of holy people (saints.)I got out of the man-made, institutional "church" because:Well, it's of man, not God.I got tired of watching the "rulership" fight among one another over who was going to be The Pastor/Reverend/Brother...etc, and be the true authority.I got tired of people arguing over the color of bathrooms, carpet, building programs, (insert a million other useless things here.)Sick of being continually cursed with the "tithe" doctrine and numerous other false church doctrines. Tired of watching my "word of faith" elders die before their time of inexplicable diseases while "believing" for healing.Tired of continually witnessing people who were supposed to be "dead to sin" (including myself) living in complete selfishness and sin, fornication, evil habits, anger, backbiting, hatred, dissension, differing in opinions, etc.Tired of watching, as another poster put it, the weekly preacher/church show..looking at the back of someone's head.Sick of being forced to celebrate or at least acknowledge "christian" holydays that are rooted deeply in ancient paganism while the "church" hides its head in the sand and pretends not to see it.Grossed out by watching "church" members of different denominations look at one another right across the street and not even know one another because they can't agree on what is written and what they're experiencing in God.I could go on and on...but I'll spare you. :)Do I feel guilty for not "going to church?" Absolutely not. I was led out by the Spirit of Jesus. Do I feel terrible about the necessity of doing such a thing. Yes indeed...continually. I have grieved. Have I forsaken the "church?" Yes. Have I forsaken the Body of Christ, the Ekklesia that Jesus is building? No. I've had a thousand times more true fellowship in the Spirit with brethren (and sistren) and learned much much more Truth in the written Word since I got out of the weekly "service" thing. Why do people call that "service" anyway. Isaiah 58 is "service", not playing a weekly church game.When the assemblies of God's people in my area get together in the Word and begin to obey it, the leadership organizing according to what's written, and cast out the false doctrines and the idols (sports, entertainment, gluttony fests, etc.), then I will be the first one to show up to serve with my gifts. Until then, I will serve with my gifts at my home like Philemon and be satisfied with the presence of Jesus where the two to five of us gather. I've already been accused of rebellion enough. Just bounces off now. God bless His Sheep in "churches" and out of "churches."

StevenL wrote:The Lord taught me he never was trying to build a "church" anyway but he was raising up a Called-Out Body of holy people (saints.)Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.Are you sure it was the Lord? ;-) p.s. I know what you really mean.

Whoa! Are you really serious here? I assume you are, but what changed your mind and caused you to see how you were really feeling? Surely you were not conscious of these feeling as you were living day to day; or were you? I'm not being judgmental at all, I am just trying to understand WHY you were so blazing mad? Me and many of my friends have tolerated all the same shortcomings and never got that upset; we simply sought the Lord and waited for Him to open doors. He opened them. There are still lots of problems; but that was true of a majority of the New Testament Churches mentioned in Scripture. I didn't realize it at the time that I was as hateful and angry as I was at the local church but I really was. It was at the root of a lot of my road rage episodes and other snaps I would have from time to time. I hated my brothers in the church and unsaved pretend brothers in the church and since I couldn't bare to figure out how to be a believer in the church without compromising I stayed out of the church. It didn't cause the hate to go away but I just took the hate out on others in all kinds of different ways. All the while I was unintentionally being self destructive to myself and walk with God. I finally discovered the way out of this bondage. The scripture, "If you love me you will obey my commandments". and 1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. and paraphrase, "they will know you are Christians because of your love for one another" Once I obeyed God in the areas I was not willing to let go of and loved Him I was able to love the idea of the local church and all the people in it especially the leadership I am required to be in submission to. The last thing I wanted to do was to be under submission to authority. Why was that? Because I was not submitting myself to God like I was supposed to so how in the world was I going to submit to leadership. That probably also had to do with my secret hatred for the police.

I would like to send out an URGENT call to all Godly Pastors, who frequent this site as a guest to become a member and bring some balance and an additional perspective to this entire "out-of-church" issue.Thank you,tony sexton

"Are you sure it was the Lord?" Absolutely. By the way, I was led to understand the meaning of the word "Ekklesia" that Jesus used. I think the word "church" helps remove the true representation of the word. :-)

Oh, and I am part of the eldership of our Assembly. I'll be glad to submit to an apostle if God sends us one. I'll have to see the Scriptural signs that this person is a true apostle though. Otherwise, I and my fellow elder will do as the Assembly at Ephesus did. Revelation 2.

Hi AsliEren,I didn't realize it at the time that I was as hateful and angry as I was at the local church but I really was. It was at the root of a lot of my road rage episodes and other snaps I would have from time to time. I know a fair number of out-of-church Christians and don't feel any more or less towards them than other Christians. In many cases it seems that they ran out of options. In others they were no longer able to tolerate the things going on; but I never knew of any to actually say they 'hated' the people in the church. I counted 4 times that you used that word. I still wonder what changed things for you? The last thing I wanted to do was to be under submission to authority. Why was that? Because I was not submitting myself to God like I was supposed to so how in the world was I going to submit to leadership. That probably also had to do with my secret hatred for the police. I'm not sure what you mean by 'submission' here? Are you referring to Hebrews 13:7? In settings I have been in there is only 'submission' in terms of what goes on with the direction of the Church. There is a real 'lack' of church discipline and accountability. In New testament times it was a priviledge to be part of the local body of believers (i.e. Corinth, etc.). Being turned out of fellowship or "Turned over to Satan" was one of the worst things that could happen to a person. If this process went on too long it made them vulnerable to the Devil's devices through the 'much sorrow' cause from being out of fellowship (II Corinthians 2). Get this, they were in danger of being turned out of a church laced with carnality and abuse of spiritual gifts. What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then? I have asked this a few times before and have yet to get an answer. My background deals with the roots of the Church's structure closely resembling the ancient synagogue; though that has been debated here already in Jewish Roots'. For me I am not so concerned with in or out; but whether everyone is walking in love towards them within and without.God Bless,-Robert

The few local Pastors that I have spoken to concerning this issue of “out-of-church” believers paint a slightly different perspective (as we might imagine they would.)It seems, there are some “out-of-church” believers who have not entirely left the Institutional Church (as some call it) voluntarily. In many cases they have unofficially or officially been put out of the Church. I am told of believers who blow in as guests and almost immediately expect and demand a position in the Church.I am told many times there is no “proving” ones ministry, and these believers when not allowed to take the Pulpit spend their time sowing discord among the saints, questioning the authority of the Pastor, deacons ect… they refuse to hold up the weary arms of the Pastor, as was the case with Moses, but instead are content to speak incessantly of their own pet doctrines.Thankfully, there are those here on SI who genuinely want to pattern their life after the New Testament pattern of life and Godliness.In Christ,tony

Just for reference, a related thread;House or Home Church Movement...you experience?Short on time, but "out" at the moment and not at all opposed to going back.Think Robert has a great perspective on this whole thing and I agree with him wholeheartedly.I know a fair number of out-of-church Christians and don't feel any more or less towards them than other Christians.Indeed, nor the opposite is true, my goodness should it be? This seems to keep coming up more and more in these days we live in. Not the problems, but in spirit. Have we forgotten Jesus's words...No wonder He prayed for us.

Hello Krispy,I probably cannot impartially critique my own post, but I would think it helpful to get as many different perspectives as possible on such an issue. Hopefully not condescending as I certainly have no axes to gring in this regard.The great thing about being part of the Body Of Christ is, although we may take differing positions on some issues, as we hold to the basic tenets of the Historical Christian Faith we are brothers and sisters in Christ.It may even seem we are being used as “sandpaper” at times, not to rub someone the wrong way, but quite the opposite that we may rub each other the right way!! Email me sometime Krispy, and tell me about yourself maybe a testimony of what God has done in your own life, and I will reciprocate.Blessings,tony

Tony... be careful not to over generalize.Generalizations are the hallmark of this topic nearly every time it comes up. No one wants to be generalized and even fewer want to be marginalized. This is on both sides of the coin. Personally, I meet for 'Church' in churches, homes, half-way houses, rodeo buildings, bingo-halls, nursing homes, city parks, hotel galleries, cafeterias, or anywhere else God has opened the door in the last year (I speak as a fool) and I have seen the guns pointed in both directions. No matter what our grievances are the bickering needs to end. There are legitimate problems, yes. But no one has answered my question yet about the problems of the New Testament Churches and folk working to correct them. There are many souls in churches in the West. Millions upon millions. If I point my 'guns' at them I will never see day of influence to see those in need to be brought to Christ. That is what has happened with some who could have made a GREAT difference in the Church. It saddens me to tears. No telling what God would have done.Much of the problem is ignorance in the people from the top down. Not all churches are intentionally in error. Some simply do not know better and need to see the right way in a way that they will receive it. Not a rebuke after service or an interruption of an altar call when sinners are contemplating their souls. Winning souls requires the wisdom of God. We can all walk out right now. We can start a church in our homes or anywhere else. But what about the multitudes that God has called us to minister to and show them the truth? Some of the most devoted people I have ever met are 'out of Church' and 'out of range' to influence those who desperately need that influence. We can all point out the problems that we see; but what good is that? What is the solution? We also need to remember that we don't go to church to be ministered to- but to minister. We minister to the Lord in praise and worship. others learn to minister to the Lord by our example. In short, we go to be an example of the believers. We go because sinners show up at churches seeking God. If God is not in the church before you show up- He is when you show up right? Then take God to the people. He is not in a building. He is in us. Be patient. Ye have need of patience. I was brought to church on the bus at 8 years old when my dad was an alcoholic and my whole family without God. Someone in the Church bought a van. Someone in the Church bought the gas to go in that van. Someone drove that van to pick me and my 6 year old brother up every Sunday AM and PM and on Tuesday nights. We lived about 15 miles from the Church. Someone built a church. Someone paid for the utility bills of that church. Someone purchased the Sunday School supplies that we used. Someone taught the class I was in and taught me about Jesus. What happened? I have 6 children and my family is serving God. My dad is set free from alcohol and a deacon now. He has ministries to shut-ins, homeless, and inner city children. Now we are buying the buses. We are buying the gas and we are picking up people. We are visiting the fatherless and the widows in their affliction and doing our best to keep ourselves unspotted of the world. I thank God for the Church. I would be headed to hell without it and so would be no less than 30 of my family members. May the Lord continue to build His Church that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. God Bless,-Robert

RobertW wrote:But no one has answered my question yet about the problems of the New Testament Churches and folk working to correct them. Hello Robert, please refresh my memory, what were those questions?

Hi Zeke,What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then?My question centers on the fact that most of the Churches in the New Testament period had serious issues that needed to be dealt with. The only Church that had it all totally together was Philedelphia and they were commended for their love. Love is patient and kind. Love is long-suffering. Love keeps no records of wrong. Their zeal was fueled by love- not anger or aggravation at what was happening in the Church. I suppose none of us had been needed in Philedelphia. God sends in crisis ministers for crisis hours. What are we here for?God Bless,-Robert

Robert writes:What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then? I have asked this a few times before and have yet to get an answI am taking a look at these Churches in order as they appear in Revelation hopefully to find answers: PART 11) Ephesus: This Church was recognized for their hard work, for their endurance, for their intolerance of false teachers, and for not giving up even in rough times.But………….. There was a problem…The love they had for God, for their brethren, for sinners was not what it used to be. See, they were correct to measure doctrine by a scriptural standard, but it seems they had abandoned their Love of the brethren in the process. This love is a total giving of oneself, and holding nothing back from God. And so they were told to turn back to where they once were in Christ. Simply, that is repentance a changing of your mind and as a consequence your direction is thus changed. Interesting they were not told to jump ship, rather to stay put and return to their first love Christ.2) Smyrna:This Church was recognized for the suffering they had been through, God was not ignorant of the poverty they found themselves in. In fact because of their relationship with Christ they were indeed RICH!! God knew of the slanderous talk others were saying about this Church.This Church was told some would be cast into prison, and the persecution would continue. But the promise was to those who remained faithful, to the overcomer is to be given a crown of life!! Overcomer meaning those who overcome external pressure and temptation, as well as internal thoughts, motives, and attitudes. Interesting to note, they were not told to jump ship, but to remain faithful. Praise God!!Next two Churches to follow….

Hey robert,In others they were no longer able to tolerate the things going on; but I never knew of any to actually say they 'hated' the people in the church. I counted 4 times that you used that word. I still wonder what changed things for you? I honestly hated them. I have to call it hate because it isn't anything less then that. If you walk around scared to love someone enough to edify them using God's fruits of the Spirit then you hate them. I never used the fruits of the Spirit (which by the way are specifically for the purpose of edifying believers and non-believers alike). It's sad but true that I believed I had the fruits of the Spirit but I never used them. If you are a discouraged Christain because God isn't giving you the chance to use the fruits of the Spirit walk into any Church and try and get involved and there will be a million and one opportunities to live out what you say you believe. You will find many enemies to love and pray for. I was in a home church for a little while with some people who were also burned by the "institution" but my home church was little more then a pity party. What changed things for me was I realized I should obey God and love people instead of hating them. I got the idea from some ancient christian document called the Bible. Whether this church is in a home, grocery store, converted cinema theatre doesn't matter.I would go to a church and see things similar to how I was burned in the past and I would feel convicted to love them by the power of Almighty God living in me but I wouldn't do it. Instead I would shutdown and at the most find people with similar personalities as mine and determine that they were spiritual like me because they fit a particular personality type I could relate to. We would share our particular views on the Spirit filled life and agree with each other somewhat and that was the extent of Christian fellowship. Pretty easy to do and not much to stretch you spiritually. No need to edify each other because there is this understood agreement that we don't need to try too hard in this corrupt institutional church that has it all wrong. They don't fit my brand of Christianity so I will do things my way. The most active edifying attempt I would do would be to get mad and angry enough that I lashed out in righteous indignation about something I didn't like and then pray about my wounded spirit afterwards. It was totally self edifying to my ego.I'm not sure what you mean by 'submission' here? Are you referring to Hebrews 13:7?Yes this is what I'm talking about. We need to be willing to be held accountable by the body and to be disciplined. Pastor's are not exempt. A pastor who refuses to be a real normal person along with everyone else and have accountability and be disciplined has just disqualified himself as a pastor. We shouldn't envy the gift a pastor has and decide we will be our own pastor. A real pastor seeks after discipline and accountability he doesn't shun it.

KrispyKrittr The word "pastor" is mentioned once in the NT, and is interchangable with the word "elder". The word pastor is only mentioned once in the KJV. The greek word that is used for pastor is poimen. I dont know about other versions but the word is only translated into two words, shepherd and pastor. Thayer says this about the word poimen.poimēnThayer Definition:1) a herdsman, especially a shepherd1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow2) metaphorically2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies2a2) of kings and princesWhy do you think that elder is interchangable with pastor?

I like what Wilkerson said once," Go to a local assembly, even if all you do it pray that fire will come down from heaven."

Robert writes:What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then? I have asked this a few times before and have yet to get an answerPART 23) Pergamum:This is the first city in Asia to support the imperial cult, where its citizens were required to worship the emperor. And for a citizen to refuse surely would bring the charge of treason. This city had dedicated an altar to Zeus, and a temple to Athena which may explain why the city was said to be the place where Satan had his throne?The Lord recognized that this Church was true to His name. His name stands for all that He is, and this Church apparently only approached God, through His Son Jesus Christ.But………. There was a problem, two problems in fact…a. idolatry and sexual immortality: Certainly Balaam was a forerunner of all who would promote compromise with the Worldb. following the teachings of the Nicolaitans: Ignatius, a disciple of John, referred to these people as impure, lovers of pleasure, corrupters of their own flesh.The cure? As it always has, and will be …repentance, and when those members of this Church “changed their mind”, and went in the opposite direction they were promised spiritual food as they now were partaking of Christ. Every person in this Church who repented now were acquitted instead of being condemned. This person stands justified by faith in Christ and is again, acquitted of his sins as he stands before the throne of God. It is interesting to note, that once again these Church members were not told to jump ship, leave the Church, but rather to repent. 4) ThyatiraJohn tells us three things about Christ here, and nowhere else in The Revalation is Jesus called the Son of God, second his eyes are as fire which see far beyond our outward appearance, and third feet as of brass whereby all the enemies of the Cross will soon be trampled underfoot.This Church was recognized for it’s love, it’s faith, it’s works and it’s patience.But………there were some problems as well…….The Church tolerated this false prophetess. The early church was accustomed to inspired teachings by way of prophetic utterances. Now, however there were strict guidelines set in place to regulate spiritual gifts. And the Church was instructed to “test” the spirits behind all utterances. And because this spiritual adultery was allowed to coexist in the Church, there were some rather radical steps that were to be taken. We find the cure was once again REPENTANCE, and when sufficient time was allowed for repentance after came judgment. All the Churches were to know that God does not take a low view of sin, not by any stretch.It is of special interest that Christ addresses another group in this Church which had no part on the doctrines of Jezebel, they are told to:a. work at converting Jezebel and her followersb. totally denounce the doctrines and practices of Jezebelc. keep holding on to the true doctrines and practices they obeyedd. to pray for strength having done all to stand they were to remain standing against Jezebel’s teaching.And the promise is to those who remain standing in the Church, these will someday have power over the nations.Thank God, these people were told to “hold fast till I come”, not to run off and abandon the Church which Christ was to purify.

I agree, Robert's post was excellent!When i first left the institional church, i couldn't imagine going back becase I had discovered that they were so decieved in their beliefs- and I finally had learned that the "church" is not a building.But as time has gone on and the Lord has stripped me of everything i thought i knew about Christianity and rebuilt on just the foundation of "Jesus" (researching church history helped me tremendously). I feel like I am ready to go and be involved. I do not feel mad or upset or "burned". I was never burned or anything like that. I was just disappointed to find out that people were not living what they said they believed and i hadn't been either, and no one had been there to teach me any different. Hypocrisy was rampant.We have tried a few churches and there is much compromise. Some more that others. I do long to be part of a church body that i can give myself to and that our family can get involved with- but He has yet to show us where to go. But I am waiting patiently.Being out of the inst. church, i see many opportunities to serve outside of the church building. You tend to notice regular people more-and what they might need.Since our kids are not in "Sunday school"- we are responsible for their spiritual education- which makes us much more accountable. We don't just drop them off in a class and let someone else do the teaching. It's so easy to get caught up in that whole church scene where adults do this and the kids go do their thing. That this is the way to do things, yadda yadda, yadda.I have met the neatest people who have a deep desire to know the Lord and to do His will- from all different types of churches - and people who don't go to church at all. My perspective has changed so much by being "out". You see things from such a bigger picture. But I wouldn't mind at all if the Lord showed us a place to go and attend. I would welcome it actually. But, we must wait. When the time is right, He will show us.In Him, Chanin

Robert writes:What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then? I have asked this a few times before and have yet to get an answerPart 35) Sardis: The problems in this Church are addressed right straight from the start………This Church it seems had a very good reputation before men, possibly it had all the current programs and was at the top in organization. But, Christ makes it clear that our reputation with Him is the measuring stick! To their credit, apparently they had a little strength left. The Church is told to watch and strengthen what little remained. The Church is told to remember all they had received and to grasp on to it with all the strength that remained.A great warning was sounded to this Church, the door of mercy was open wide to them and they must respond or suffer eternal loss. To reject the Bible as God’s word is to be ignorant of the signs of the times, and thus will not understand the time of His coming.Take courage overcomer, Christ singles out the few in this Sardis Church who had not defiled their garments and fallen away from God. They were in this Church and are promised to be dressed in white and their names will remain in the Book of Life.And so in essence, those in this Church are told to wake up, and turn from their sins….repent. The same message in fact given to all the other Churches.6) Philadelphia:It could be, the most important part of this letter is what was not written. There is nothing which Christ disapproves of in this Church. The very word “Philadelphia” means brotherly love. It describes a Church whose people were bearing and forbearing of one another. It describes a Church whose people were patient with each other. It describes a people who were faithful to their calling and of their service to God.Christ sets before this Church an open door. An open door for becoming a servant and reaching this world with the Gospel. An open door in Nursing Homes, an open door in Prisons, an open door in Children’s homes, and open door at homeless shelters, an open door wherever and whenever there is a hurting soul that needs a friend to care.The people in this Church are told to hold firmly to what has been afforded them. These people are told that Christ would soon come and no one would take the crown that awaited them.And so take courage believer, God sees your labor of Love as you work in your Church, it has not gone unnoticed.

I consider myself to be an "out of church" Christian. From what I understood you to mean as I read through the thread here, out of church meaning out of the church as an institution. I've been "out" for about 6 months now. I left because I believed God directed me to leave. I wasn't angry with anyone, although I must say that things happened which I was very unagreeable with. This is the first time in my life that I have been out of church. I believe God directed me to leave in order to uproot alot of dependency which I had on things other than him. He has been bringing me into a real, solid relationship with himself because I don't have anything or anyone else to rely on. And I believe he did it because I wasn't real. I did not have vital reality. I could talk all the talk, but I had no real understanding of God. I've come to realize that I don't know anything if I don't think like God thinks about things. And you can't think like God thinks unless you are intimate with him. And you can't be intimate with him if you spend every waking minute running here and there. I had to slow my life down so I would have time to spend alone with God.I still go to churches, but I don't have a commitment to any particular one. I have commitment to people that I am in real relationship with. I talk with them. I pray with them. I worship with them. I study with them. I eat with them. I cry and laugh with them. I take most of my sermons from this website. I listen to them as I work everyday. Leaving the institutional church has been the best thing I ever did for my spiritual growth. Love, Dian.

The scolding and chastisement for those who "abandon the church" is only valid if you accept the definition of "church" as it defines itself today. Generally:An incorporated organization that is affiliated with a particular group or denomination...That is keeping a "sabbath" in some way.That demands "tithes" of its adherents to support the "Levitical ministry."That conducts ritual worship services of some sort at specific times on specific days.That is ruled by A Pastor, possibly a Senior and an Associate Pastor, mostly just one Pastor in small churches.That listens to "sermons" on Sunday given by The Pastor from behind a pulpit, usually with crosses or doves engraved on it.That keeps the Roman Catholic holy days in some form or other.For those of us who don't accept this definition of Christ's Called-Out Assembly, the charge of abandoning the church is meaningless. I rather think of it as abandoning a failed system to participate in the True Assembly of God's people. Since most are still trying to uphold the System, the True one is largely neglected so that it can't function fully as written. But God is still manifesting Himself to the Little Flock just as He promised. Praise the Lord!

Chanin again you hit it on the head.The recent trip down south with Greg and Josh allowed the incredible opportunity to go a church that really fits neither of these distinctions and actually had elements of both.The Church in The Park.One of our own here preaches every Saturday morning to the homeless and to anyone who happens by for that matter. Being there just this once can only tell of my experience but it was truly wonderful. To see and hear the birds playing around in a tree in front of me while the Word of God is being spoken... How could you not smile at that? Watching the faces and praying throughout that the Lord would open their hearts. There were a few chairs setup, but mostly people stood or sat around the planter wall, some mingled in and out. All under God's blue sky. Some singing... And then the first baptism in the park as I understood it from a dear man who was so sincere and humble. Tears of joy!Just couldn't wonder if this was just a bit closer to maybe how things might have been, at least in spirit, all those many years ago.

Part 4Before I comment on this last Church Laodicea, I want to revisit something Krispy said today. He asked if maybe I was being condescending in the tone of my thoughts. As I have been looking at these Churches as described in The Revelation I am certain he has a valid concern.Just using the phrase “out-of-Church” nearly presupposes a condescending attitude toward a fellow believer or group of believers. I think of Paul’s writings in I Corinthinas where he states that Apolos watered; but God gave the increase, and he that planteth and he that watereth are one. Each person shall receive their own reward according to his own labour. Like most here at SI, I wish to be firm in my convictions, to have the mind of Christ, to know what “thus saith the Lord” and yet……………………….be teachable, willing to lay aside formerly held “beliefs”, or at least adapt should a greater light be shown on an issue. Are these two attitudes contradictory?? I think not.And still I wish, hopefully to search the scriptures to see if it sheds light on any of Robert’s questions:What about Galatia that 'did not obey the truth.' What about Ephesus that left her first love? What about Titus that needed to set things in order the 'wanting things' in Crete? The time would fail to mention the major problems of the other 4 churches of the Revelation. What had we done had we lived then? I have asked this a few times before and have yet to get an answer7) Laodicea:Christ is said to be the “Amen” here, or “truly”. Which surely is indicative of the certainty of the fulfillment of His promises.There are no commendations to the Church here in Laodicea, some have said the Ministers and Leaders of this Church thought it more important to please the people than it was to please God!! These Church members were neither hot or cold, I remember one teacher saying that Cold meant they were away from God but knew of their need to get right with Him. And Lukewarm meant they were away from God but did not realize their condition. What a great promise for that remnant in this Church at Laodicea though, Christ was still just outside the door, ready to come in and feast with His bride if they but heard His voice, and heeded the call.And surely the promise still stands, Christ still is very close and very near. The initial question Robert asked:What had we done had we lived then? The answer must be the same now, as it would have been the right answer then…………. Wake up, strengthen what remains, return to your first love, repent, open the door, hold tightly what Christ has afforded the Church and hold fast until He comes.

The answer must be the same now, as it would have been the right answer then…………. Wake up, strengthen what remains, return to your first love, repent, open the door, hold tightly what Christ has afforded the Church and hold fast until He comes.Tony, I'm not sure I am understanding where you are headed in the things you have said throughout this thread, especially your appeal to "pastors".Are you of the opinion that we 'out of churchers' need to return to church? That has been my impression here, and I'm going to go ahead and tell you what I told my pastor when I left the church I had been attending and supporting for almost 3 years. I am married to an unbelieving alcoholic. In August of last year he got drunk and called me from the bar he was at to come get him at 5:30pm on a Friday afternoon. We've been married for 9 years, and those 9 years have been the most intense years of seeking God my whole life. I've wrestled against the division. It has caused every vile, wicked thing in my heart to surface time and time again. I have cussed, cried, screamed, yelled, stomped my feet, prayed, pleaded, had other people try to reason with him, and nothing changed anything. I've "put my foot down and drawn a line" time and time again, only to realize that God chastisted me for 'holding onto my life', or for loving my husband conditionally. Finally, back on that day in August, I was preparing dinner when my husband called. I had a friend over. My 8 year old had a friend over. My 26 year old daughter was here. She, myself and my friend had plans to attend a Bible Study in a nearby home later in the evening. I had told my husband one month earlier that we did not want to be around him anymore when he was drinking because he says and does inappropriate things. While this request had angered him, he had, up to this point, complied.So, I got in my car and drove to the bar to pick up my drunk husband, so he wouldn't drive drunk (we already had paid thousands of dollars for one dui). On the way home (after having to wait on him for 15 minutes upon arrival and actually go inside to retrieve him 3 times), I asked him to please go back to the bedroom when we got home for about 15 minutes and we would all be gone. Well, this was NOT a good thing to say. He immediately became angry and began yelling about how he could do whatever he wanted to do in his own home. When we arrived back at the house, he cussed out my friend, who ran from our home in fear. My daughter, realizing what was happening grabbed up my son and his friend and left to go to her grandparents home nearby. This left me alone with my drunk, angry husband who proceeded to threaten my life as he violently raged and completely demolished our kitchen, actually tearing the cabinets from the wall with his bear hands. I, remained calm, inwardly praying and asking Father what to do. My daughter, fearing for me, returned alone. My husband (not her father), immediately attacked her, spitting and spewing his venom wildly at her in our driveway. Finally, he said something which struck her as funny, and she laughed. This so infuriated him that he screamed, "You think that's funny? You think that's funny? I'll show you funny!" And he turned and ran into the house. We never knew what for, but we knew that this was our break, so we both ran for her car. We were able to escape as he was running down the driveway after us. We spent the night at my sister's. My friend called the cops, fearing for my life. They simple came to our home and scolded my husband, then called me and told me to stay away until he sobered up. I knew, I mean I knew, that I needed to hear from God. I knew, that I absolutely must act 'in the spirit'. I knew I could not afford to act out of my own understanding, but I knew I must act. Something had to be done, and my heart ached that it would be something that would produce life in all of us.I'm telling you all of this to give you the picture of desperation in my life.I prayed all night. I don't think I ever went to sleep. I begged God to give me wisdom. I begged him to help me do what was right in his eyes. I heard from God. The next morning, I left my daughter and son with my sister and had my parents come pick me up. I had no money, no car, no phone, since I had fled my home without any of those things. I didn't even have time to grab my purse. I had my parents drive me to my husband's friend's home who is a city cop. I made them leave me there. I pounded on his door at 7:30am on Saturday morning. His wife came to the door. She said he was on duty. She called him for me. He came to the house and talked with me. I told him what happened and that I wanted my husband removed from our home. I told him I wanted him to go out there and reason with him and tell him I wanted him to leave so I could go home and clean up the mess, and be able to make it to a memorial service for a friend which I planned to attend later that afternoon. He went to our home and reasoned with my husband and convinced him to go to a campground where we had our camper for the summer. After the memorial service, I went to the camper and talked with my husband. I told him that I would never again live with him if he drank at all. I told him that he is a dangerous man when he drinks and we are afraid of him. I told him that I could not allow our 8 year old son to be influenced by that any longer. I told him I loved him and he could come home as long as he never touches another drink. I told him the minute he picks up alcohol again, he would have to leave and could not return until I see him walking in complete surrender to God. I told him to think it over and I would call him in the morning. He came home on Sunday. That was the day that God told me to leave the church. He said, "you're church is 40 minutes away and you are very involved, but it always takes you away from your husband. He sees it as just some activity that you care more about than him." God said, "Stay home for a while and seek me with your whole heart."I told my pastor what I planned to do. He asked me why. I told him of the crisis we were in at home. I told him, "My whole life I have gone to church and never really known God. I've been in crisis after crisis and church has never changed me. I must know God now. I must seek God now. If I can't know God, I'll die. The church,as an institution has never helped me. I need help, right now! And the only place that help is going to come is from God. I've been to church enough times to know that it is always the same. It never changes. I go on Sunday, I sing in the band, it feels great, the message is good, the people are smiling, and then I go home to my life and I'm dying. I can't do it anymore. Now...I'm going to seek God like a maniac." And that is exactly what I have done. This cyberchurch has become my main source of encouragement beyond all of the time I spend in prayer and the word. My pastor and many of my friends at church have been very supportive. I still sing with my friends at various functions. In fact, I'm singing with a friend at a function tonight. God is leading me on. And I still love the Church of the Living God. Sincerely, Dian.

Greetings brethren;I really enjoyed this article by Wayne Jacobsen.http://www.lifestream.org/LSBL.May01.html

My whole life I have gone to church and never really known God. I've been in crisis after crisis and church has never changed me. I must know God now. I must seek God now. If I can't know God, I'll die. The church,as an institution has never helped me. I need help, right now! And the only place that help is going to come is from God. I've been to church enough times to know that it is always the same. It never changes. I go on Sunday, I sing in the band, it feels great, the message is good, the people are smiling, and then I go home to my life and I'm dying. I can't do it anymore. Now...I'm going to seek God like a maniac." This just says so much!yes, when I attended church it was because I was lukewarm and thought it would help "save" me. It was the thing to do. But when i made the decision to really follow the Lord and surrender all to Him for good, I had to leave the church building. In that first year I grew spiritually at an alarming rate. I soaked in everything that the Lord showed me and had me read (which was mostly spiritual classics and information about church reformation and restoration)Last week for the first time we went to visit our old church that i had lest 3 years ago. I had to see where they were at. They had a new pastor and I wanted to see if there was any chance for them. If maybe the Lord might have done some work there when i was gone.I was so very disappointed. It was even worse. A lady that sat next to me there said she was glad to see me back there again. I didn't remember her at all, but she had remembered me. The point was that she had been there all this time that I had been gone and she was in the same place spiritually as when i had left. I hate to say this but i could tell even by the way she dressed(black spiked-heel boots, all black fancy clothes, make-up beyond compare and just a fake smile- too witch-like for my taste). Actually before she introduced herself to me, in my mind I gave her grace because i thought ,ok , she must be new and she has not been here long enough to have had her mind renewed and her heart convicted about modesty. But, no.And the fact that she was just "amening" this new motivational, prosperity type pastor :(It was just a big show- for everyone there. They just wanted a feel-good message. They wanted to get hyped up and motivated- so that they would have to come back for more of their next "high" session. That kind of thing gets to be addicting to people. They are just looking forward to that next "motivational" moment and don't know how to live by the Holy Spirit all the time when they are at home.Also, I would think the Lord is more concerned that we worship Him in "spirit and in truth" than have to be so structurally correct.I think Mike makes an excellent point also. The new testament church was so simple. It was done in simplicity. The church style we have today is only because of the way the Romans took it and formed it according to their specifications. We still have a version of that old roman church today in these church buildings. Probabaly not all, but most.The Lord is wanting to restore His church back to the way it was originally. Just as Luther had to take a step out of the "boundries" to help reform the church a bit, so I believe it is with us today. The church needs to be reformed and restored. And the Lord IS doing that whether we like it or not- whether we want it to happen or not. He will use those who He wants to bring reformation/restoration once again to His church. one step at a time.I think alot of people who have come out of the church building for awhile, He has used that time to educate them on the way things were meant to be. How to worship Him in spirit and truth- not man's tradition.All i know is that in this time that i have been home the Lord has done a tremendous work in my life and in my heart that would never have happened if I hadn't left the building. I didn't follow any programs except His. He has used this time to refine me over and over. To mold me and shape me. I have matured spiritually it seems like 20 yrs. in about 3.ok, I'm rambling too. :)In His love, chanin

I also recommend Chip Brogden's writings on the subject of the church.Watchman.net- ChurchHis writings helped me so much during my first year of coming out of the building and out of lukewarmness. :)In His love, chanin

Hi Dian,That was the day that God told me to leave the church. He said, "you're church is 40 minutes away and you are very involved, but it always takes you away from your husband. He sees it as just some activity that you care more about than him." God said, "Stay home for a while and seek me with your whole heart."I told my pastor what I planned to do. He asked me why. I told him of the crisis we were in at home. I told him, "My whole life I have gone to church and never really known God. I've been in crisis after crisis and church has never changed me. I must know God now. I must seek God now. If I can't know God, I'll die. The church,as an institution has never helped me. I need help, right now! And the only place that help is going to come is from God.My prayers are certainly with you at this time. It is my hope that all who have read your post will be in prayer for you. This is a critical situation.I am quite familiar with the path you speak of. I also know many many people who have suffered at the hands of alcoholics. I know many women whose husbands tyraids caused them to eventually fall away from God as the enemy would back them into a corner and force them to pick between their husband and God. I have heard of stories where the husband would "make a deal" with the wife that if she would come to the bar with him- he would go to Church Sunday with her. The deal was false from the beginning. The man merely lured his wife away from God until she got so weak that she backslid herself. An impenitent man is rarely more jealously angry than when his wife chooses God over him. I must encourage you to remain in fellowship with the Saints somehow. Without that fellowship you will grow weak. You need folks to come alongside you and minister to you. the enemy will try to wring every single aspect of God from your being. Understand, that he is NOT satisfied that you have left your church. He will press you and press you until you feel guilty for anything you do for God. When the children of Israel were about to leave Egypt Pharoah wanted to "make a deal" and have the Israelites go just "so far" out of town to serve God. that is how the enemy is. Bro James Smith has an excellent teaching on this. For example, when the enemy sees you really chasing after God he steps in like the old gameshow hosted by Monty Hall and says, "LET"S MAKE A DEAL." I'll back off and let you have some peace at home, IF........ Or I'll get him to back off drinking if you will back off of God. This is the oldest trick in his book. It is a strategy to wear you down a little at a time. The Devil will kill you with a hang nail if you give him enough time. He don't care how long it takes to make you weak- he is patiant. He don't care if he uses a shovel to scoop out your love for God or a tea spoon- just so long as he leaves you empty. He'll wait and wait and wait. It may take days or weeks or months or years. He is longsuffering knowing that TIME is on his side. You will know the truth of this scenerio the first time you feel the need to give up something else or make another 'concession'. REMEMBER I have said so. He will steal your desire for God as you grow weak. He will kill your relationship with God. At last he will destroy your life. There was a time when there was more alcoholic men in our family than sober men. There was a time when our church had many men that were at home drunk just waiting for the wife to get home to manifest their evil. Some prayed and sought the Lord until there husband was actually saved. Some it was their sons that were at home drunk and they were elderly women tolerating this. The sons died drunk, but the mother was an awesome example of faithfulness to God. Knowing these things I can only pray the more for you and beseech you to WATCH and PRAY. Be STRONG in the Lord. The enemy wants to bring you down; but always remember GREATER is HE that is in you than he that is in the world. God will give you the victory. Do not abandon him. Christ is familiar with our sufferings, he is a valley walker. Surely He will walk with you in this valley and every valley of your life. In my earnest prayers,-Robert

There's a lot of great advice on this thread. Particularly would like to thank Pastor Robert for his prayerful thoughts.My prayer for the brethren here is that you be connected in some tangible way to the body of Christ. Whether it's the "institutional" church or a "home" church matters not, but I can assure you the day of the Lone Ranger is ending. We simply cannot make it without each other.Of course, Jesus is the head of the church but none of us comprise the rest of the body we're only a part of it. So I pray that you get involved with a group of believers who love Jesus, who believe in the power of His blood, who believe in dealing with sin, and the convicting power of the spirit that leads to repentance and to a deeper life with Christ.We need each other. Although I enjoy the time the Lord gives me on the Internet, that's no substitute for meeting with other believers. I pray that the Lord will lead to that place.

Have some catching up to do but...Dearest Dian,Thank you for pouring out your heart and life to us all. My heart...Had me in tears, especially towards the end there.You ladies, all of you, such an integral part of this fellowship here. Thank you, thank you, thank you....

Great thread.All who left churches; did y'all ever ask that church to pray for you? Did you ever consider that you may be salt and light in that place?Organised churches reached the unwashed in ways a home church cannot, even with their faults. A vital part of the 'body'...

Hi Krispy,In my experience this last year especially I have not been concerned with house Churches as such. They are in many cases a home version of what you find in a church building per se. There are differences, but they are not all that great. There are strengths and weaknesses to this, just as there are in Church buildings.Another thing to point out is that churches generally are not under thumb to some chain of command reaching up through a controlling hierarchy; but are governed by the leaders of those individual churches that were voted in by the congregational members. The boundaries are generally set up by the by-laws of the organization (denomination) or the church itself. Our church is 'independent' but we have a pastor who is licensed through the PCG. We have a set of by-laws in place that basically define the scope of what we believe. Many of the original members of the Church started in 'house churches', but circumstances developed that made the need for a larger facility to accomidate the growth. This is a good thing. The problem is in maintaining the fellowship and prayer that should be resident in the Church. instead the people sometimes feel they are along for the ride and a small percent of the people end up doing all the major workings. Some of the churches in KC have gone to so called "cell-groups." These meet in homes instead of meeting at the building. They are as spiritual as the people are, just like in the building. Some go great as prayer meeting I have been in in homes; others have jumped the rails and were actually destructive. It's all about the people. My MAIN concern is not for those who are "in-church" (either in homes or in buildings), but for the TRUE "out-of'church" Christians who refuse to come into any kind of fellowship anywhere- any time. I know people like that. They will not even come to a prayer meeting in a house anymore. They are the "Lone-Rangers" that someone spoke of earlier. They are in a wilderness of sorts and it is a cycle that can be document. The man who wrote the original article has been so part of this that he can tell you the stages that a person is in in that process and tell you the next stage- because he has seen it so much. We have discussed this at great length. He agrees that this is not healthy. He has written about that also. These are the folks I'm concerned for. They are all alone and are sitting ducks for the enemy.God Bless,-Robert

Knowing these things I can only pray the more for you and beseech you to WATCH and PRAY. Be STRONG in the Lord. The enemy wants to bring you down; but always remember GREATER is HE that is in you than he that is in the world. God will give you the victory. Do not abandon him.Robert. Thank you for your prayers and concern for me. I will heed your words. My husband has a saying that I really like, "Don't forget who you're dealing with here." I won't. But, I know you all don't know me very well. My spiritual nickname is Xena. The devil has done picked on the wrong girl this time. I'll die before I turn my back on God and you can take that to the bank. I know my God is faithful and his word never fails. Never. In the words of Tozer, If I go to hell, I'll be the loudest voice in hell telling how good God is! Bless you all for your love and prayers. Thanks. Dian.

Interesting thread!I know the appeal and scriptural basis of the home church movement but am not, nor am I seeking to become a part of one. From my goings to and fro across Chrsitian sites on the internet, I've discovered that the Lord has been exceptionally good to my wife 'n I in that wherever we've gone, from San Diego, to Italy, to here in Arizona, we've always found good, strong churches relatively quickly and do not have the horror stories many seem to share.And by a good strong church, I'm talking about an evangelical outreach with plenty of opportunities for any interested to get involved with the work of the Lord (which is seeing souls saved...first and foremost). I'm talking about places where you can go and do more than put on your plastic Sunday smile once a week and never be seen or heard from the other six days of the week. I'm talking about places where the preacher does NOT coddle the masses with soft-shoe preaching but will occasionally call down fire and brimstone from Heaven in his message. I'm talking about a place where infighting and strife is generally unknown and if it does spring up, it is dealt with quickly and decisively.My wife and I have been truly blessed to find these places where/when it seems the norm is in having difficulty to find a good place to worship.I can understand the loss of closeness and intimacy even in the best of churches, compared to a home church, of course there would be such when you're talking 450 people or 8. But there is also a certain joy in watching a church of 250 grow to 450 regular attendees over time. While it may or may not be true that as little as 15% of "converts" in a regular church are still walking wtih the Lord a year later, 15% of the two-thousand or more such a church will reach is still a fair sight more than any church of eight could hope to achieve in the same period, so the base goal of Christ & Christians is being fulfilled.In short, there are pros and cons either way you look at the picture, the key is in finding a good, Bible-believing, evangelical church which apparently is easier said than done.

I have been amazed at the way the Lord has openned my eyes personally to what church is and isn't. I used to be a ardent oposer of people who "don't have a covering" in the sence of "church membership" of an established church, however He has led me to many who are in home churches, or not in any established fellowships, with an amazing deppth of revelation from the Lord.My first coming to this website, was at around a 11:59pm deadline in my decision process for leaving the church. Like many here, I have embarked on an amazing journey of questioning everything that I have been told was true. I found some lies, some instances of poor priorities, and some truthes confirmed. In this journey, my family and I even went through the process of leaving the only church we have ever known, even to the point of informing the pastor, and saying goodbye to friends. It wasn't a light choice, as we have pastors with incredible hearts to serve God, that continually use questionable means, out of a zeal for seeing results (ie, they're fad chasers:)).Just as we were about to leave, found a house (as this was going to be a full geographical upheaval), with every circumstance pointing the way to go, God told us to stay. We still don't fully know why He led us this way (and it's undoubtable that He did), but this has led us to the place of "leaving the church" while still "attending the church". We have began to establish true fellowship with sincere believers (who suddenly came out of the woodwork), effectively joining the "church within the church". My attendance at the congregation I attend, presently serves the purpose of seeking out those who are false converts and warning them. Essantially, I have become a "thorn in the flesh" for many, and a vessel of deliverance to others. I say this tearfully, as it would be nice to attend a fellowship of strong, decerning believers, but the Lord has told us to stay. Mostly, it's a death experience, but hey, Jesus did say to "take up your cross daily". Since God has led my family in this direction, I have seen the depth of my wifes relationship with Jesus increase exponentially. My childern (4 and 2 yo) begin to grow their prayer life. And for myself, the beginnings of a disciplined life establishing. I've learned true submission. In the past, I sumbitted to my pastor and the church vision. Now I submit to the Lord, and He's telling be to serve the pastor and the church vision. There's a difference, and that difference is about priorities. I'm now "subcontracted" out to my church, by God, rather than "owned" by them.I'm not saying everyone is called to do this (that is stay, where they are), but there are many who are, and in turn are rebelling against God. Some go on about reaching out to the Africans, others go on about reaching out to your neighbours. I'm all for that, wholeheartedly. But tell me this, who's reaching out to those who are going to "churches" every Sunday, being told that they're "saved"? More to the point, who's reaching out to the "churches" you're leaving?I hope this doesn't offend anyone, for I mean no offence by my statment, but as Jesse and all the other street preachers are passionate about reaching those on the street corners, I'm passionate about reaching those who think they're saved, but are not. You may think it's pointless, and no one is listening, but should that kind of thinking stop you from open air preaching? The point is, the message needs to be heard, that's all. People's decisions are none of our business, as long as we're faith to preach.Peace.

Aaron,I totally applaud what you are doing. This is very hard to do and i am coming to the conclusion that that is what my family will have to do as well. How do you do it? How do you sit there under false teaching tactics and listen to people say things that make you want to scream or shake them? I suppose the Lord has given you the grace to do it.When i think of having to control myself if I would go back to our old church and listen to their falsehoods, it stirs my insides tremendously. I really don't know if I could do it. But if the Lord says so- then it will be so. ;-) In His love, Chanin

Chanin,The way I do it is to view them as unsaved. If you can share your faith with the unsaved in the marketplace, then just do the same thing with the unsaved in the church. By the same token, if you can resist shaking your unsaved workmates, you can resist shaking your unsaved church goers.Don't forget, your in good company. Finney preached to profeesing believers. As did Edwards ("Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" was preached to his congregation). Listen to Wilkerson, Ravenhill, Comfort, Reidhead, Tozer, Art Katz (particularly Garden Gleanings 1 & 2. Just watch out for the comments on women in minstry:)). They may have spent some time talking to non-christians, but I guarantee you, that most of their stuff on SI is directed to the church.As far as listening to their falsehoods, what's the difference between going to the "Mars Hill" of the world, and waiting your turn while ignorant sinners postulate their lies about God, and His creation, and waiting for the sinners in the pulpit to finish spreading their lies in the "Mars Hill" of the church? It's simply a matter of learning to hear the voice of the creator, and heeding Him, rather than bowing the knee to every word eminating from the pulpit.Like it or not, judgement must begin in the house of God. If you have a subpoena to witness for God, don't be surprised if He holds you in contempt, if you don't appear. Am I saying that it's easy? Of course not. It's heart breaking, but then again, so is walking around shopping centres and seeing the filth in record stores and newsagents.You can do it. you wouldn't accept that as an excuse to outreaching the "obviously" lost, so why do it with those who think that thet're not?Take up your cross, and follow Him.

Aaron, I also applaud what you are doing. As Chanin said it would be SOOOOO hard, but I surely do not want to be disobedient either to what the Lord calls my family to. I guess the only thing I could do is look at a church as a mission field as you said and try to find the "remnant" within who are also looking for those who want to know Christ deeper and want live the "narrow path". My husband and I are in a really difficult place right now. The last church we attended (until Dec.) and were active in, we found ourselves in disagreement with what we believe is a very important doctrine/practice within the church. This week after sending us their expounded doctrinal position, we were urged to submit to them. We were also told that if anyone in the congregation asks us what we believe on this particular issue, we are not to answer them, but direct them to the elders or their doctrinal statement. Now I understand completely about sowing discord and all that, but to 'gag' someone from discussing what they are convicted of (when asked)due to their own personal studies? That doesn't seem right and we could NEVER submit to that. Our ultimate allegiance is to the Lord, not to man. This church was the best in our area----doctrinally speaking, grace based, but hard on sin and a church who didn't do "programs" and such. This type of church is hard to find nowadays. However, the "gag" rule, well, we just can't abide by that.There were a few other churches we "tried" prior to going to that one.......one we thought we may like to start attending on a regular basis, but found out that within the leadership there was at least 1 Freemason. We asked ourselves----what kind of discernment could this church leadership have to allow such a thing? Another church we attended: a friend of ours was divorced by his wife (unbiblically). Right after the divorce, the leadership made him a leader in the single's ministry.............Another church we called, the Pastor was so outwardly prideful, speaking of HIS church, what HE has done there. It was all about HIM, not the Lord. A friend and I were talking about this (I never mentioned the church) and she said, "Oh, that sounds just like Pastor so and so".........It WAS the same Pastor! My husband had such good discernment on him which was unknowingly witnessed by another.My husband and I are not "picky" people. We don't care if the Pastor acknowledges us, people greet us profusely, people bring us food when one of us is hospitalized, the music is not quite what we like, etc, etc. I have seen many people leave churches over the most ridiculous reasons---most of which have to do with "self" being offended and not conviction/Godly issues. We truly do WANT to be in a local fellowship. However, how does one do that when they see falsehoods being spued from the pulpit and or/allowances for sin to continue in the Congregation? I guess what I have a hard time with is this: if we attend a particular body, it will appear to others that we put a "stamp of approval" on that Church/leadership. I feel much as Chanin does concerning the things I believe the Lord has shown me in the confessing Body. I'm pretty sure we feel the same-----sick/nauceous. It's the same feeling I get when I know I'm doing something wrong and need to repent. That's how I feel when I sit in many churches today and don't get me wrong, it's not a "better than you" attitude I'm struggling with. I do know the things sinful about my own actions/heart and I do have patience with others in that regard. It's because I "see" things and am sick because most in the church think "all is well".........peace, peace...........and I know this is not so.Any advice/wisdom for my family? Thanks and blessings, in Him, Cindy

Any advice/wisdom for my family? Under the circumstances I would say you are doing the right thing in withdrawing away. That is my immediate reaction. (edit.) Yet, you should seriously prayerfully consider every move you make when your kids are involved. Children need to be in a stable environment. And as I think about it even farther, I would say that the well balanced church would be the best option if you can find it within yourself to comply with the so-called "gag order." It must be something they feel is quite threatening if they have asked to refer to the elders on that topic. Again, the chuches of the New Testament were far from perfect. In the end the issue will boil down to your own personal lives. there is much I could go into, but I have already been checked a few times to make corrections by the Holy Spirit. Do what God is saying to do. God Bless,-Robert

lastblast wrote:I guess the only thing I could do is look at a church as a mission field as you said and try to find the "remnant" within who are also looking for those who want to know Christ deeper and want live the "narrow path".Please hear me rightly in all this. I'm in no way suggesting that everyone should just stick around in a negative church environment. I guess I'm simply suggesting that we reconcider how we veiw "church", and moving our mindset from one where we are part of an "oranisation", to being part of the "organism", as true church is fellowship with the brethren, not a place on the corner we go to. I know most of us know that, but sometimes things like that require a bit of effort to go from being a nice cliche phrase to becoming reality.As you said about the church being a mission field, that is always at the forefront of my mind, every Sunday. Our church has policy after policy regarding what a "leader" does and doesn't do. Some of them are cell group attendance, tithing, contributing to the church building fund, and helping to maintain the "testimony of the church", by attending every Sunday service (am and pm). My personal approach has been to take a kind of sabbath from responsability, where I could assess my walk with God's validity. I was open about what I was doing, to our ministry team (ie, eldership), and offered to resign as leader whilst doing so (at the time I co-ordinated training, ironically including running "Membership classes"). I'd offered to my pastor key sermons that I'd been listening to, that highlighted some of the key issues that I'd been wrestling with (like Ten Shekels and a Shirt and Hell's Best Kept Secret, among others). In spite of my vocal concerns, regarding direction our church is heading, they insist that I remain "in leadership", which is strange because, officially, I'm "leading" no one. I'll let them call me whatever they want, but they know that they have my resignation anytime they require it.So far I haven't been presented with any "gag orders", or anything like that, however I'd most likely submit to it (provided it didn't make me do something outrightly unscriptural) if given. Art Katz (why is it that I seem to be quoting him so much lately:)) told a story of Lutheran ministers in communist East Germany, who's "apostolic stature" was formed by them submitting themselves to ungodly oversight (There Were Two Trees is the Garden, Parts 1 & 2. You can "submit" to someone, without going along with what they are doing. Many of us do it daily, with ungodly employers.I guess it's as the old adage goes, "be in the world, but not of the world", though in this case, it's "be in the church but not of the church. Some people have ministries going into nightclubs to reach the lost. Others would be "derailed" in their walk, by the temptations presented. It takes a certain kind of brokeness and honesty regarding personal lack to stick around. On one hand it's really hard, due to the resistance you face from unexpected directions, but on the other, God is bigger than any circumstance.I hope my comments don't make anyone do anything stupid. After all, as Robert has pointed out, there are serious "real life" issues to be faced, like stability of family etc. On the other hand, I also hope that some will hear the wooing of the Holy Spirit, into this neglected mission field.

Yes Robert, I'm sure they are "threatened". I do understand the "shepherd" thinking. Personally I believe that type of mentality is important because so much falseness and sin has crept into the church and many "shepherds" do not seem care about the condition of the fold. They are more concerned with the "seekers" and pleasing them than taking care of the "sheep" the Lord has entrusted to them. To see "shepherds" care about what comes in is a good thing. However, to be faithful to the Lord in what He has given each of us is more important than "false" unity at the expense of Truth---or even at the expense of meaningful dialogue in differences. That's what appears to me would be happening if we submitted to this "gag order". The truth is that many times dialoguing with other believers concerning what the Word of God states is an avenue to truthfinding-----with the Holy Spirit leading of course. When people of God are prohibited from such and are held in bondage to a Pastor's doctrines (non salvational issues)---not being able to have free discourse (NOT to include angry conversation, accusation, condemnation)there's something wrong with that. I would hope you as a pastor would allow people the right to discuss their differences of interpretation in a respectful, Godly manner. We have not been afforded this courtesy. At the only meeting we had with the Pastor(1 hour---which was pleasant and not contentious---ending in prayer) we had a pamplet given to us, right before we headed out the door----written by someone else from another church in the U.S. When asked about some of the points in this brochure, the Pastor would not discuss it further. He said "we(the leadership) won't change our minds and you probably won't either, so this discussion is done". At that point he inimated we should find another church. He wrongly assumed my husband had a set position. He did not. The thing this pastor was successful in doing was making my husband question why it is that the Pastor wouldn't address his questions---is the doctrine taught at this church "solid"? The lack of response by the Pastor actually set my husband on a quest to find Truth for himself as he believes if one is walking in Truth, there will be no "holes" and the person will be happy to share what they know and how they obtained that knowledge in the Word of God---especially those in leadership. This pastor didn't know the answers to some of the questions/scenerios my husband asked, so he didn't want any further dialogue.This led my husband to speak to the Associate Pastor---which lead to them(the elders) getting together and putting a doctrinal statement together. That was a positive. At least now they have their "own" paper instead of handing out someone else's position. In any case, we are not allowed to question anything in that paper----just accept it. That is why "withdrawing" is not only what we will most likely have to do, but it is what they force us to do. The unfortunate thing here is that all this came about due to a situation in which our convictions were an issue. We did not seek out to "indoctrinate" anyone, nor have we set out to cause division. Since I am the one "set" right now in a viewpoint, I was living out my convictions "quietly". The thing is, the Lord would not allow me to continue in 'quietness' because He dropped a situation right in my lap that I had no choice of ignoring----I either had to go against my convictions and do something compromising or speak up. I chose to speak up----with knots in my stomach, mind you. Anyways Robert, thanks for your input. I did not intend to go into so much detail, but I felt by your "expanded" post, I needed to. Blessings in Him, Cindy

I like this statement: Bro Aaron wrote: You can "submit" to someone, without going along with what they are doing. Many of us do it daily, with ungodly employers.This is a matter of course for many who have chosen to seek God for revival and yet try to maintain some sort of fellowship with Churches.I was in a revival meeting once when the issue of 'compromise' came up as it was a meeting of many denominations. Some said tongues should be preached and some said no tongues (glossolalia). I noticed that the enemy all but destroyed what God was doing through these type of doctrinal issues. We can be so dead set bent on not 'compromising' that we totally miss God. We actually get out in front of what He is doing. I remember the passage... "Ye have need of patience..." Compromise to one person is not compromise to another. Compromise is when you abandon truth for any number of motives; waiting on God to do what he will in His time is patience. Everyone is on a different level (somewhere between babe and full age). You may be on a different level Spiritually than others. It is no different than how different age groups deal with each other in society. The youth are at odds with the elders and think they know everything at a ripe old 16 years (I have 4 teen children). The elders look down on the youth for their behavior, etc. Pretty soon there is division after division. What if a person was a babe in Christ? What if they thought everything was sin. What if their zeal caused them to be so radical that they could not relate to others? What if they so stumbled around trying to learn to walk in the Spirit that they fell and skinned their knee all the time in either sin or legalism (no real difference as it is all selfishness rooted in 'the flesh')? What if they acted like children (in a spiritual sense)? What if a person was a teen "in the Lord." They had it all figured out and was ready to charge hells gates with a water pistol. They looked at their baby brothers and sisters in the Lord as 'brats' who need a spanking and are hard on them. They want to know why mom and dad is not spanking this kid that acting out (they forgot how they acted out at that age). Maybe they thought when they were kids- things were sure a whole lot different! We didn't get by with what they get by with! Well, thats because often youth often raise kids and betime they get some patience thay had already raised their kids that way (impatient and sorely intolerant). Now as spiritual teens, when they see compromise they are ready to stomp it out or rebuke the Church during the altar call while the Holy Ghost is moving and dealing with hearts (this has happened). On the other hand someone who is well seasoned in the Lord is very patient with people- as the Lord is. Willing to wait knowing God once waited on them. Considering themselves lest they also be tempted, they restore the fallen. They bear one anothers burdens. They love one another. They suffer the little children in the Lord to come unto the Lord and help them to grow up. So what shall those between the spiritually mature and babe do? Help those who are spiritually mature help the babes. God Bless,-Robert

Hi Cindy,However, to be faithful to the Lord in what He has given each of us is more important than "false" unity at the expense of Truth---or even at the expense of meaningful dialogue in differences. That's what appears to me would be happening if we submitted to this "gag order". I appreciate your love for truth. The thing about this is that it is exactly how the enemy divides and conquers. This is why we have (as I heard the number to be) 33,000 different denominations of Christianity (I hope that number is false). The enemy appeals to your love for truth and then places a situation in front of you and in effect says; "Are you going to compromise with these people or are you going to take your stand?" You then feel that you MUST take a stand and then the strategy has worked. He always takes a passage of Scripture and forces a situation where you will be tempted to abuse the verse or principal or take it from the context of the full counsel of God. We have to learn to stop allowing the enemy to appeal to our godly attributes in order to pit us against one another and divy us up.For me this is not such a big deal because as a Pentecostal I am used to having to feel like a flake because of my beliefs. I know I'm no flake, but I know what people think often who hear the words "Pentecostal." If I took the approach that is presented in terms of truth I would go into every church seeting I can; homes, buildings, parks, community centers, nursing homes, and across all spectrums of beliefs and start blurting out tongues in word and in doctrine. I had already wrecked the ministry had I done that. If you cut me I might bleed pentecost, yet some pentecostal's would call me a compromiser; I say follow the Holy Ghost and let His wisdom prevail.I'm not trying to convince everyone to go back to church I am trying to add additional insight into what it means to hold your peace and forbear one another a bit. We have to be careful or the enemy will lead us around all over the place with this stuff. I want to see everyone here in fellowship with the Saints that God has called them to. No more and no less... even the much more as ye see that day approaching. God Bless,-Robert

Compromise to one person is not compromise to another. Compromise is when you abandon truth for any number of motives; waiting on God to do what he will in His time is patience. You are right Robert. Compromise for one is not compromise for another. That is where we have to be led of God----whether into the wilderness for a time or into a corporate body. The thing which we need to remember is: We all have things the Lord shows us that we won't 'stand down' on------no matter what. Yes, we have to make adjustments at times, I do understand that. That is where patience comes in-----many times we "see", THEN we have to learn how to deal with what we "see".........that's where I'm presently at.Concerning "waiting on God".......I am a firm believer in this and not perfect by any stretch of the imagination as is evident. Even so, many times concerning compromise-----there is no 'waiting'.........there are decisions that have to made now. The decision I had to make has led our family to where we are now presently------and I believe it all is the Lord's doing. We are just trying to follow Him without sin on our part........and we have stumbled along the way. Right now, we are waiting..........Aaron, thanks so much for that download. Unfortunately, my computer is still messed up and I can only faintly hear it. Is this in print? Blessings in Him, Cindy

lastblast wrote:Aaron, thanks so much for that download. Unfortunately, my computer is still messed up and I can only faintly hear it. Is this in print? Blessings in Him, CindyI don't believe so, as this is part of one of Katz's "schools" (aparently these schools generally go for weeks). They tend to be a discussion around the word, where lots of things come up. Sometimes books are written from the material that comes up in these environments (like Apostolic Foundations, for example).Sorry.

The word compromise is regarded as a Christian cuss word in our churches. I am becoming aware how I equate the pureness of doctrine with pureness of heart. Indeed, one is often regarded as mature and equipped to teach if they exhibit mastery of systematic theologies. This type of propositional relationship to one another is futile. For instance if Charles Spurgeon, Charles Finney , and Dietric Bonhoeffer were sent back to cooperate in starting a church, they would have to persuade the lost to come because each one of them would disuade evangelical factions from attending. I'll be honest, Finney and I might get into a fist fight if the nexus of our fellowship was his Systematic Theology;) However, when tasting his devotion to Christ, I would feel it the greatest honor of my life to wash his feet while he instructs me about loving and serving God. Perhaps our churchless brothers and sisters can not find fellowships because they are looking for churches where community is as important as conversion. MC

My, this is just an incredible turning of thought from where it started out. So many replies here that am tempted to lift a hundred quotes out of.You folks are touching and breaking my heart at the same time. Being still 'out' at this present time, so much I can relate to. One of which was the sentiment well stated I believe from Cindy, as well as others, about the "whys" of leaving, if it's truly sincere it is a grievous thing. Robert has provided so much balance to all this and Aaron as well. Settled on the area of "Church within the Church" as it relates here. A brother who heard about SI after looking for a particular Ravenhill message, (in fact he even sat under him in that little town in Texas :) ) got in contact with me and has dropped by our apt. on a number of occasions. He and his family drive over the hill every weekend, about an hour and a half's drive, to attend a rather ... questionable... church. He really threw me after talking about growing up spiritually in those days. About Keith Greene, the whole Agape Force. A seasoned believer. I was truly puzzled as we discussed this church, that I am familiar with and frankly would be the last place I might go.(Fireworks for the Fourth of July, inside the church)He told me, 'don't you get it? We are witnessing to these people.' He will hand out a Ray Comfort tract during the service to someone next to him. Hang out after the service to talk to people without any ulterior motives or wrangling over doctrine. It really opened my eyes to a different level of maturity and gave me pause to think differently about things. Just like all this does.Also interesting to observe how the mentality has changed amongst many of us who have been around here for awhile. This topic has come up many times before. The humbling of ourselves to each other and re-thinking is wonderful. So much of all of this could be summed up in one word; Misunderstanding. Of intent and motives. Still puzzling is that for either 'side' if you will, that there wouldn't be a true hearing out of each other. It does seem to defeat the purpose. But there are times when reluctantly you may just have to go or as it is being expressed, stay.Also a firm believer in waiting on the Lord. If that is what we are truly doing, seeking His will above all else. So much it seems to me of the Lords ways are confounding to that naturalness, that so called 'rational' mind of ours. A time to wait, a time to move, a time to speak, a time to be silent (sounds like a proverb)Being out of the mix of all of it short of this fellowship, which is rich in my opinion, has caused me to press in even more so than I ever imagined. I left to reevaluate everything of this walk. Like many, just had to have some reality that went beyond the surface not only in what I was seeing but how I perceived that inwardly and that of course brought out a whole new set of questions. It set out a course of coming to an end of my 'self', that isn't in total realized, wonder if it ever will in this body. But at least to the fallacies of what "I ought to be doing". Maybe this would better summarize.Discussing the Bible Training College he established;"Oswald unceasingly pressed the issue of personal fellowship with Christ:“The great enemy to the Lord Jesus Christ in the present day is the conception of practical work that has not come from the New Testament, but from the systems of the world in which endless energy and activities are insisted upon, but no private life with God.“It is not its practical activities that are the strength of this Bible Training College, its whole strength lies in the fact that here you are put into soak before God. You have no idea of where God is going to engineer your circumstances, no knowledge of what strain is going to be put on you either at home or abroad, and if you waste your time in overactive energies instead of getting into soak on the great fundamental truths of God’s Redemption, you will snap when the strain comes; but if this time of soaking before God is being spent in getting rooted and grounded in God on the unpractical line, you will remain true to Him whatever happens.”Every observant student could see the truth of those words in Chambers’ life. In the closely-knit community of the college where classes, meals, and conversation were shared each day, a person might pretend for a while, but not for long. There was no discrepancy between Oswald’s walk with God and his talk, and in the final analysis, that was the power of his influence.However, not everyone agreed with him. Often his drastic statements about some aspect of the Christian life brought forth a chorus of objections. During meals, students would bombard Chambers with questions about a point of his that had snipped the ribbons of their neatly tied theological ideas. Oswald never argued and never tried to force his viewpoint on the questioners. “Just leave it for now,” he would say. “Brood on it and it will come to you later.”Oswald Chambers. Abandoned to God.

It is very timely for me to read these comments of Aaron and Chanin this morning. You see, my family and I attended a church last Sunday that is only about 10 minutes from our home and this is what I thought God was saying to me:In the past, I sumbitted to my pastor and the church vision. Now I submit to the Lord, and He's telling be to serve the pastor and the church vision. There's a difference, and that difference is about priorities. I'm now "subcontracted" out to my church, by God, rather than "owned" by them.I agree with Chanin: When i think of having to control myself if I would go back to our old church and listen to their falsehoods, it stirs my insides tremendously.Honestly, all I know to do is go and just try to walk in obedience to God in all things. Here goes...Love, Dian.

When we take our eyes off our neighbor and put them on God, many "important issues" will pale in His glory. When we look at the mote in our own eye and minister to it's pain within, we will not be so apt to notice that really small speck in our neighbors eye.Brother, this is so true. I returned to that church I mentioned today. It was difficult to watch all the hype and try not to judge those involved. I suppose I am now looking at this church as a mission field. God, please help me.

"TREND: Significant increase in out-of-church Christianity"See the BARNA website- http://www.barna.orgA nationwide survey conducted by the USA based Barna Research Group indicates that the number of unchurched adults in America continues to grow by nearly a million people annually. Interestingly, many of these unchurched people are spiritually active. One out of every five reads the Bible in a typical week; six out of ten pray to God each week; and nearly one million unchurched adults tithe their income - that is, donate at least 10% of their annual household revenue to non-profit entities.The religious media play a part in their spiritual life, too, with fourout of ten absorbing Christian content through television, radio, magazines or faith-based websites during a typical month. In addition, one-quarter of them have conversations with one or more friends who held them accountable for carrying out their faith principles.Having studied church attendance patterns for more than twenty years, researcher George Barna suggests that the consistent resistance to church life in recent years is indicative of a historic shift in the nation's spiritual vision. "A large and growing number of Americans who avoid congregational contact are not rejecting Christianity as much as they are shifting how they interact with God and people in a strategic effort to have a more fulfillingspiritual life. This suggests that we are on the precipice of a new era of spiritual experience and expression."Barna expects the percentage of adults who are unchurched to grow during the coming decade. "However, the emergence of a national body of spiritual leaders who are assisting unchurched people in their quest for spiritual depth through means and relationships that are outside the usual institutional vehicles is significant. We anticipate substantial growth in the number of people who are not connected to a congregational church but who are committed to God and to their faith."

I have been going to a church in canterbury but I do not know about it? I tried a different church this week but my home church is a house church. What is a church it is not the building

First of all I just want to say that even the title of this thread is an oxymoron. I agree that the it is an oxymoron but for a different reason. I don't think threre realy are any out of chuch christians. What you have are people not functining in the church,and in many places churches not functioning. In titus an 1&2 Tim paul is not giving instructions for the setting up of a church. He is instructing two 'workers' to edify,stregthen and bring maturity to the existing churches in those areas. This included recognising mature men and ackowledging them -not appointing them to hirearchical positions over the flock but to recognise that they were already leading (or capable of leading) by word and deed. It most certainly had nothing to do with setting up a 'pastor'in a particular place for people to gather themselves under.Many have left institutions but are still very much involved with God's people. Many are more involved than when they used to fellowship with the back of folks necks every week. Sombody mentioned in another thread,that there is no such thing as 'the American church' or the 'English church' this is quite true. Its also true that there is no such thing in scripture as 'the churches of Corinth' or 'the churches of Jerusalem'. In reality there is only one church in whatever place you live. On a practical level this is very difficult to live out because of the division and fragmentation that exists today. But often God will lead people out of division, to bring them into unity in him.A great little booklet that has blessed me is "the Assembly of God" by CH Mackintosh. It is excellent :-)

I know of a lot of people who have "left the church" and aren't doing anything for God anymoreThe Church of Christ isn't a building.The local churches are full of busy people, doing many things, but failing to seek the Lord God wholeheartedly. I'm an advocate of less activities in the Church, getting back to the Root: Jesus Christ. For me, going to Church is entering a tremendous battlefield...and I'd better have my armour on, or I will be brought down by the dryness, lukewarmness, lack of love for Gods word and useless traditions...Church has become a missionfield to me...and at this moment it's a pretty tough one. Church was ment to be a place of spiritual edification and encouragement. Instead...it has become a place of spiritual exhaustion and emptiness. I don't see my local church as "the Church". I see the times I spend with fellow believers as "the Church"...the whole body of Christ. My local Church is a place to be a witness for Christ. And I'm praying that this church will be set on fire for the Truth again...Maybe some people leave out of arrogance and pride, and I believe that's true. But you have to make a distinction. I don't stay at a church where false doctrines are being taught. That's not pride. I also am desperate for moments in which I can fellowship with others, so that we may meet Christ and be encouraged...be in His presence and learn Him. And while I, most of the times, don't find that in my church, it makes me sad and gives me a desire to meet other Christians who do have this longing for Christ. Maybe the name of the thread could have better been: "Out of Churchbuilding Christians".Paul

Amen .in search of a city.

KrispyKrittr wrote:We need real, honest, open relational church...the restoration that needs to happen is the biblical way of doing church.I presume that this is what you mean...What needs to be restored is what we see in the book of Acts. People focused gatherings of believer, meeting in homes and in the by-ways, sharing all they have... etc....anything else?

KrispyKrittr wrote:Yea, Zeke... it made sense to me when I wrote it. Is there something that I need to clarify?Not clarify, and I'm not challenging you at all. All I'm asking is, is that all? Is that all that you feel is missing?I'm am not a theologian, nor a teacher so I would not use questioning techniques like that, and besides its kind of patronising in a way. If I wanted to say something to you, I would say it and not beat around the bush, i.e. spade = spade. :-P

pij wrote:p.p.s don't forget that in the book of Acts they did meet in homes but they continued to go to the temple for prayer. Acts 3The temple gpt smashed so it doesn'y count as a valid part of N.T. church life. It belonged to the old model. That is what I was told when I used that comment, even though Paul spoke publicly in Ephesus for 2 years :-?, Anyway and and and, not either/or.

I haven't read this thread at all except for the last two posts so this may have come up already...I don't know.But we need not forget that Jesus did a lot of his preaching and teaching in the synagogues, as did the NT disciples after his ascension. Many times we are told that they went there "to pray" just as Jesus had done a lot.So they preached in the homes...And they preached in the "church"...In short, they preached wherever they could...even in the streets. A church is a place where believers are gathered, whether it be in a "pass the plate" brick and mortar bona-fide church building, or in someone's shack of an apartment in downtown, when you come together to worship Christ and to teach as he did...you're in Church.Now we could discuss the merits of one type of meeting location over the other all day, but it doesn't change the fact that fundamentally, It is all irrelevant to God WHERE you are, as long as you're doing his Will. :-)

Dezcall wrote;"Maybe the name of the thread could have better been: "Out of Churchbuilding Christians" ...Perhaps, but i think most folk who come across this thread pretty much know what's meant ... :-D From what i read on SI of most folk seperated from organized/denominational church many concider yourselves to be "remnant" ... i understand what is meant by "remnant" as i also understand why so many are making a mass exodus from "organized" religion, but i'm very interested in finding out ...What's the Job of the Remnant? ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5234&forum=35&0This is the title of a thread where i've posted a series of questions in relation to the "remnant" and those you've left behind ... It's had 31 views, but no comments ...Is there anyone amongst the "remnant" here who'll post on the thread and make it plain for me? Thanks,Br. R

Actually it's both.

Hi Krispy,I trace my beliefs back to the Book of Acts... 1st century. My doctrines have been handed down by groups like the anabaptists and the Waldeneses. That was waaaaaay before the Reformation.Many so-called Protestant denominations are actually descended from the "remnant"... they just dont know any better.I am really interested in your fellowship. I have not read through all the posts so maybe you already talked about them. I also desperately wish to get back to the way things were in Acts. Not all the culture stuff, but the manifest presence of God. We have fallen so far short of the Book of Acts. It seems you cant turn the page before something happens again manifesting the Finger of God. Folk getting saved by the thousands, filled with the Spirit, baptized, called to minister. Preaching sermons until the people couldn't gainsay or resist. The shadow of Peter cast upon the sick bringing healing. Folk being healed on the way to prayer meeting. Healings and demons cast out by the laying on of cloths from Paul's body. Angels leading the bound out of prison as the people prayed for hours continually. The whole world being turned upside down. Yes, oh for the days of the book of Acts. When the manifest presence of God brought such fear upon the people that they knew God was among them. God speaking as though it was a common occurance through the people. The Church being added to daily such as were ordained to eternal life. What a time to be alive it was! Oh that we might see it... that we might see it...

Krispy when i said,"i also understand why so many are making a mass exodus from "organized" religion"i'm explicitly speaking of Protestantism and meant that i understand why many who call themselves the remnant leave due to just being fed up with all the pomp, circumstance, programs, etc. that has diluted so much of Protestantism ... i was'nt questioning anyones salvation staying or leaving ... But was asking on my thread ...What's the Job of the Remnant? ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5234&forum=35&0These questions;- What does our Lord have you doing differently? ...(Thanks for the link in answer to this question)- Are you in intercession for those you've left behind? ...- Or have they become out of sight out of mind, if so why, and do you think it justifiable in Christ to forget them?i ask this because today, just as in the time of Elijah, the "remnant" seem to be a very quiet bunch, so i'm figuring (hopefully) that they must be doing a whole lot of intecessory prayer for the left behind apostate folk ... Brother Karl has been the only one to post on the thread and he doesn't even concider himself to be of the "remnant" but man did he make a profound comment ...Quote;"I truly believe that the ones God is "calling out" are no better than the rest, only that He has taken them aside to be trained for a greater work, for serving the body of Christ" ...That's the same way i think ... i know i've personally been called out, but not apart from, for scripture tells me Christ will leave the 99 to go after the one ... To me whenever God calls one out it's to higher service to those whom He's called you out from ... That makes me think that historically the remnant should have been even more verbal, but they apparently weren't for as in Elijah's case as the one most verbal he didn't even know they were there until the Lord told Him ... Thank God for SI for without it i'd of never known there was a remnant either ...

Hi Krispy,You repeatedly mention doctrine as a key factor along with relationships as the core reasons you have moved to the house church model. My primary concern for evangelicalism is not generally doctrinal as many are quite conservative and orthodox in their fundamentals. In other cases there seem to be churches with 'cell' groups that build relationships and other types of fellowship gatherings. My concern is for the lack of Spiritual life that I find. There is a cliche' in Missouri that refers to such as the "first church of the chosen frozen." I don't like the derogatory nature of the label, but I feel the message in it. I just cannot handle the 'death' that suffocates the spiritual life out of a person. No unction (utterance) when the message is brought forth. Lots of talk about God but very little encounter with God. If we don't meet with God in our services- it seems that all is for naught. We can teach doctrine in any setting almost and I have taught theology extensively; but there is so little life in those things. I want to be where the Holy Ghost is there in a real way. The Holy Ghost is down on the avenue- but is His glory being manifest there? Sure the Holy Ghost is omnipresent, but we need a move of God like unto the Book of Acts. Do you seek God for such spiritual moves in the house services?God Bless,-Robert

Thanks Krisp,You certainly cleared up a few things here ... You wrote;"Well, it's hard to be high profile when you're small in numbers"Yes i thought about that after my post, and it only makes sense ... But isn't it odd that with the smallest number of 1 loud voiced prophet God got the attention of entire nations? ... Amazing! ... like Ravenhill said, "One man with God is a majority"! ... And i've taken note of what you said about the prolific use of the word apostate ... And bro i've not encounterd that you come across as edgy .... :-D

Brother Karl,i can't comment on what you hear God saying to you as God has said a few things to me in deliverance toward an organized church that i'm sure my pastor would have rather that i heard what you heard ... :-P But i am interested in what He has you doing outside of your former "fellowship" if i'm not prying ... If you are in a home setting like Krisp then it's already answered ... Truth be told a great many of todays large churches started out in a houses ...

Hi Krispy,I dont think Paul would agree with that. I believe there can be life in doctrine... it doesnt have to be dry and stale. But if we dont know what we are supposed to believe, I think there is death in that.I should have said 'theology' instead of 'doctrine.' There was a time when my whole expression of faith as a Christian was to study and debate theology. It is sort of like talking about God in place of being in a relationship with God. It served to hold me over and give me a means of expression while I was spiritually asleep, but when I awoke, I found teaching and discussing these things to be done more of necessity than zeal. Simply studying theology could not "meet the need" (as Paris Reidhead would say) any longer. I long for sound doctrine that comes forth with great power and authority as to radically change lives. In Ephesians 6 Paul speaks of the saints praying... "that utterance may be given unto me that I might open my mouth boldly... as I ought to speak...". Quote:No unction (utterance) when the message is brought forthI beg to differ, I have witnessed this utternance and interpretation right in the living room of a house meeting.I was referring to evangelical churches in my statement not house churches. I have seen house meetings that were quite powerful; I have also seen them jump the rails into all sorts of bad things. The enemy don't care where he attacks. God Bless,-Robert

But, in many churches today you wont see the fundamentals being taught. Thats why so many Christians are so accepting of unity with truly apostate churches such as the Roman Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, etc etc. They havent been taught the fundamentals.I think in fairness there are different schools of thought on this. One is that we teach against the cults and expose all their errors; the other is that we teach the truth of scripture so that when the counterfeit arises it will be shown to be as it is. The basic fundamentals of the faith are vitally important. There are essential doctrines and non-essential doctrines. In time I believe that intense persecution will eliminate a lot of unnecessary schisms. We have the luxury today of dividing into thousands of different sects; but in time it will be no more. Historically you will find that the doctrinal divisions within the Church began as the persecution began to lift. When holding a meeting can cost you your life- trivial things seem to fade away.

We can study all day long, but in the end God will not ask how much we know about Him... He'll ask what we did for Him! Faith without works is dead. We should always be studying to show ourselves approved, but we need to strike a balance between study/debate... and good works in Christ.Amen!

In time I believe that intense persecution will eliminate a lot of unnecessary schisms. We have the luxury today of dividing into thousands of different sects; but in time it will be no more. Historically you will find that the doctrinal divisions within the Church began as the persecution began to lift. When holding a meeting can cost you your life- trivial things seem to fade away. This has crossed my mind so many times. I believe this is the answer to many questions: 'when might there be revival?" "when will see restoration?" Robert you are so right about the persecution. I have even been contemplating the last few days why we have so many differences of opinions on EVERYTHING and I've had enough.The early christians were also under persecution and they were strong in faith and didn't have many trivial differences. It was about Jesus, period.I have been going around and around in my mind just thinking of all the different churches and ideas and opinions and "well, they do "that" so they're not correct" and they do "this' so they're not correct". It's enough to drive you crazy.We are currently back at home because of this very thing.But one day, when persecution comes to this country, the trivial stuff will fall away and we will be hanging onto our simple faith for dear life.I am just making sure that my children will have a strong faith in case it comes in their lifetime. That they learn that trusting in Christ is all that matters. Everything else pales in comparison.In His love, Chanin

You will need four “people” puppets, one “animal” puppet (I use a sheep), a piece of plain paper and a marker. SCRIPT:HOST. Hello, and welcome to my show. Let me introduce you to my guests. Firstly we have Miss Know it all.MISS KNOW IT ALL. Hi.HOST. Next, we have Mr. Remember well.MR. REMEMBER WELL. How are you all ?HOST. Then we have Mr. Don’t know a lot.MR. DON’T KNOW A LOT. Hello everybody.HOST. And finally we have Shaun the sheep.SHAUN. Baa. Baa.HOST. Today’s question is “How do you get to heaven?” Actually, that’s rather an easy one. Everyone knows that if you are good, you go to heaven, but if you are bad, you don’t. So, if you do more good things than bad ones you will go to heaven.MISS KNOW IT ALL. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. That’s not right. If we could all get to heaven by being good, there was no need for Jesus to come and die for us.HOST. Oh ! You have a point there. So how can we get to heaven then Miss Know it all ?MISS KNOW IT ALL. By believing. If you believe in God, you will go to heaven.MR. REMEMBER WELL. What nonsense ! You are both wrong. Even the devil believes in God, but he’s not going to get to heaven.HOST. Give us your answer then Mr. Remember well.MR. REMEMBER WELL. This is a question I have studied for fifty years, but I have finally found the answer. To get to heaven you need to be - - - - - - DEAD !HOST. Amazing. And it only took you fifty years to find that out!MR. REMEMBER WELL. Wait, there’s more. As well as being dead, the Bible teaches that we need to be a Christian.HOST. Now we are getting close. But how can a person become a Christian, Mr. Remember well ?MR. REMEMBER WELL. I have no idea. It may take me another fifty years to find that out.HOST. I am afraid that we haven’t got that long. Mr. Don’t know a lot, can you help us out ?MR. DON’T KNOW A LOT. I certainly can. You become a Christian by going to church. It’s as simple as that.HOST. But that can’t be right. If I went to live in my garage, that wouldn’t turn me into a Motor car would it ? So going to church wouldn’t turn me into a Christian. No, there must be another answer. Shaun, we are getting really desperate here. You are our last hope. Do you know how we can get to heaven ?SHAUN. I can do better than that. I can give you the key that will unlock the gates of heaven.HOST. You have a key to the gates of heaven ?SHAUN. Yes. It’s a combination lock, so can someone write down the numbers for us ?SELF. I can do that Shaun.SHAUN. The numbers are 511531.SELF. (Write down the numbers, big enough for everyone to see, but as you do, bend the tops of the first and third “1” slightly to the right. Bend the top of the second “1” slightly to the left).HOST. You mean that’s the key that will get us into heaven ?SHAUN. It sure is. Just turn the paper upside down, and have a look.SELF. (Turning the paper upside down, to reveal the word “JESUS”). Shaun has given us the right answer. Jesus is the key to heaven. He said “ I am the way. Nobody comes to the Father, except by me."Maurice Sweetsur

Brother Robert you wrote;"In time I believe that intense persecution will eliminate a lot of unnecessary schisms. We have the luxury today of dividing into thousands of different sects; but in time it will be no more. Historically you will find that the doctrinal divisions within the Church began as the persecution began to lift. When holding a meeting can cost you your life- trivial things seem to fade away". i totally believe this also ... In affirmation this is an excerpt from a word i got and posted on a website i once had entitled:"A WARNING" 9/24/01Also the imminent continued chastisements coming upon America will force the Body of Christ in America, into a renewed sense of Christian community and sharing (Acts. 2: 44-47 & Act. 4:34). God is not pleased with the palsied effect that socio-economic, racial, doctrinal, and denominational schisms have wracked upon His Body (1 Cor. chapter 12). There is but "one Lord, one faith and one baptism"! (Eph . 4: 1-6). And we are all "equally" joint heirs in Christ (Rom. 8:17).

Yes, Krispy, there is a need for foundational truth but when under persecution I wonder how much "knowledge" we'll need. This young girl had no knowledge of theology or doctrines- yet she knew Jesus. Please read (from a xanga friend's journal from Uzbek.)--This morning, before I had waken up, my Uzbek friend came to our house. She was a mess: with swollen eyes from crying, tangled hair, and scratches on her neck. Her father had beaten her the night before. She had red and blue bruises all along her arms, and even on her leg. He had also held a pair of scissors to her throat and cut her slightly so that she was badly scratched. Then, pulling her hair, he cut a lot of it off. I feel so bad for her…Last May, she gave her life to Jesus, and He has completely changed her. She was once a timid, overlooked girl. But now in Christ, she knows she is loved. She has so much inner strength. All of her relatives despise her decision to follow Christ, and often mock her. But she knows that Jesus is on her side. She often tells me when things are hard that she’ll sit and talk with God, because she knows that her Savior is the only One who will never let her down or hurt her. That’s amazing strength right there. I wish I could trust God like she does. So, last night, as her father was beating her she cried out to God. Nothing happened, he just continued beating her. Then she became angry with God saying “why aren’t you helping me if you have the power to do so??” Suddenly, she was reminded of Jesus. She remembered what Jesus endured for her—the cruel beatings, the slaps, the horrible death—and that gave her strength. Wow. My friend hasn’t read the Bible completely, she knows nothing of theology, nor does she understand everything the Bible says. But she KNOWS GOD. She TRUSTS Him with all that she has. Isn’t that what the Christian life is all about? --In Him, Chanin

She was a mess: with swollen eyes from crying, tangled hair, and scratches on her neck. Her father had beaten her the night before. She had red and blue bruises all along her arms, and even on her leg. He had also held a pair of scissors to her throat and cut her slightly so that she was badly scratched. Then, pulling her hair, he cut a lot of it off.No words for this... :cry: She remembered what Jesus endured for her—the cruel beatings, the slaps, the horrible death—and that gave her strength. Wow. My friend hasn’t read the Bible completely, she knows nothing of theology, nor does she understand everything the Bible says. But she KNOWS GOD. She TRUSTS Him with all that she has. Isn’t that what the Christian life is all about? --No words either...

This may be of "topical" interest ...The Wilderness is a Preperation Place - not a Permanent Residence ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5409&forum=35"The Terrain has Changed: A Word to you Lonely Elijahs" & "The Urn in the Wilderness" ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5157&forum=35 :beard:

Wayne Jacobsen interviews an ex-pastor (as in ex officail pastor) of fellowship that felt led of the Lord to disband, getting rid of their earthly buliding and positions. You can listen to the story here.