Should A Christian USE A Gun?

I am trying to put a much finer point on the question than the "should a christian own a gun" thread. I asked this question but it was virtually ignored. This "hypothetical" is actually based pretty closely on an incident in Texas a few years back.

I am assuming in the question you are a male. However, if you are a female remove the mother (yourself) from the scene and suppose you walked upon it and it was just your two daughters in the house... in either case ... what would you do?

What if you came home to find your wife beaten and tied to a kitchen chair with duct tape. Your two teenage daughters also beaten, bound feet and hands and laying on the floor. Two men are in your house that did this. They are eating the supper on the table prepared by your family. You see the situation through the door window but they did not spot you. However, you do hear them tell your wife and daughters that they are going to rape them after they eat and then slit their throats. They are going to make your wife watch your daughters be raped and killed before they do the same to her. These men have no guns. They were just bigger and stronger. HOWEVER, you have a shotgun and pistol in your workshop in the back. You can get one of those firearms and save your wife and daughters from rape and murder... or you can let it happen... or you can call the police who will make out a nice report when they come to work the murder scene in a couple of hours. Bottom line...you step in and make a move to save your wife and daughters from rape and murder now or it will happen starting in 2 minutes.

You now have 120 seconds before it begins.... what do you do? The clock is now ticking......

This "hypothetical" is actually based pretty closely on an incident in Texas a few years back.

What if ….

You now have 120 seconds before it begins.... what do you do? The clock is now ticking......

Just a quick interjection. This way of doing ethics is called “situation ethics”. It is falling into disfavor.

For now, I offer a few quotes that reflect a different approach:

“Ethics is about people not about actions. The heart of ethics lies in the formation of character. Once out in the “battlefield” it is too late.”

An example is given of a doctor who handled an emergency badly and a child died. I quote: “It wasn’t on that day that he failed – but 39 years before.” He had not prepared adequately for his profession. “Ethics is not primarily about the operating room. It’s about the training field, the practice hall, the library, mentoring session…. The battle for the lost child was lost on the golf course. (…) By putting the emphasis on the operation room, (or any location of crisis) contemporary ethics makes moral life seem like AN AGONY OF IMPOSSIBLE CHOICES.

“The great majority of life is spent in preparation: This is where the emphasis in Christian ethics needs to be. And the experience of grace in the moment of crisis, of decision – the ‘situation’ come not through being clever or inspired in the moment, but through the habits formed through life preparation. S. Wells

That raises the question: Biblically speaking, what life habits shape a person for those times of moral crisis?

Diane

I would not kill them until they killed my wife and daughter. I can not promise that if I used a gun it would kill them, so therefore no I would not use a gun. I would bust in with my muscles *insert scrauny individual* and fight the good fight to save my family from the tormentors.

I would have already called police, and maybe had brandished the gun for a deterrant. Through these actions I believe my family would be saved. My answers are seemingly just as hypothetical as your situation you gave me, though.

God would give me strength to rescue my family.

I believe if one kills another, his blood should be shed as well. I do not believe equal punishment is defined in Scripture in the case of a rape, but killing is clearly defined. I would take equal action if I came in just as they killed my family.

Having pondered and read related materials, the question above
is a very difficult one to handle.

I won't condemn nor demean a christian who will use deadly force like gun in such a clear and present danger to himself and his family and where authorities are of no help.

Now, the case is about a common heinous crime and not about political, nor religious persecution, etc.

Our fellowship, basically one can say is a pacifist in beliefs. One day, one of our brothers, formerly a moslem, was shot multiple times by a cal .45 pistol, at point blank, by some fundamentalists from his former group. However, the gun juct clicked and clicked but did not really fired, he went home without a scratch.

Agree, it is topic which one may say "where even angels should fear to tread".

No Sin in using a Gun, Godly Christians use Guns everyday. Most Guns are never used for the sinful purposes. I think Pilgrims Thread /Should Christians kill people?/ is much more appropriately written

Here is another viewpoint from Michael Pearl related to this subject:

"Dear Mr. Pearl:

I have a question concerning self defense in the home and while “out and about” with my children. My husband wants me to get a conceal-and-carry license and to carry a small handgun.

I am in somewhat of a turmoil as I want to obey my husband and of course I want to protect my children. Do I have a right biblically though to protect my kids with force? Also, should Christians go off to war and fight? What about “Thou shalt not kill?” Thank you for any help you might give me.

Michael answers:

Christians should be entirely pacifists in the face of legally-sanctioned persecution. If the government comes after Believers for their faith in Christ, we should be entirely non-resistant, as it says in Romans 13. Likewise, if a Christian is living in a land dominated by another religion, as is the case with 100,000 believers living in Iraq, and the Muslim religion were to launch a campaign of persecution against Christians, we should again practice staunch non-violence.

But, if a believer is appointed by his government to bear the sword, as is the case with a soldier or policeman, then he is the arm of God’s justice and should practice violence as is necessary, and no more. If a believer is the object of attempted random assault by a crazed dopehead or an evil man controlled by Satan, he is not at liberty before God to be non-resistant. He must defend himself, his family, and any other innocent party of which he is capable. Self-defense is sanctioned under the laws God gave to Israel and no where in the New Testament does God revoke the duty to self defense.

We have a Mennonite neighbor who practiced non-resistance under all circumstances. Some evil men found out about it and came into his home demanding to take sexual liberties with all his daughters. He did not resist but gave them his younger daughters as well. The men returned. His daughters became pregnant and bore [children]. No man ever wanted them for wives. He stood by and watched the evil men strip and rape his daughters. It destroyed the family. They had to move so as to cease being used by evil men at their will. He was a fool. His doctrine was of the Devil. He should have risen up in righteous wrath and slain the enemy, like Joshua of old.

I have been struck and pushed and cursed for the gospel’s sake. I have had my life threatened several times. I have been non-resistant in all cases, but when I came across a man raping a woman in the woods, I reached for my pistol and saved her life. To this day she is thankful that I was not a pacifist. She didn’t need a spectator; she needed a deliverer.

The doctrine of pacifism is a selfish doctrine of weak men who are not led by the Spirit and are seeking salvation in their own sacrifice. I will have no part of it."

Is the Christian prepared to deal with the consequences of taking a life? Is the Christian prepared to deal with the memories and trauma of what will follow knowing they have taken a life of another?

Hypothetical situations keep our eyes focusing in the wrong place. Let's admit, we also have a moral obligation regarding our calling towards hospitality. Yet we are unlikely to spend an entire thread on the topic: Should I buy an extra set of serving bowls in case I might need it someday? That is a wrong focus (yet we can spend a lot of time thinking such thoughts). The focus is on our own character preparedness long before we find ourselves with a gun in our face or company dropping in unexpectedly.

I draw from another thread, because it is most helpful – and it supports, in part, bearmaster’s reference to preparedness:

Reading in 2 Chronicles 12:14 today and noticed something interesting...

It says:

14 And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the Lord.

What is interesting is what it does NOT say. It does not say that he did evil because he failed to seek the Lord, but because he did not PREPARE HIS HEART to seek the Lord. One thing i know is that God never wastes words. Think about it; it COULD have just said (and one would have expected it to say), "And he did evil, because he did not seek the Lord."

What does preparation involve. Consider Eph 6: “Put on the spiritual armor of God so that when the day of evil comes you will stand firm.” That points to the thread “Slaying the Giant…” Faith is one of the key weapons in the armor:

"Without faith it is impossible to please God…”

To that, we could add: "Everything that does not come from FAITH is sin." Rom. 14: 23 But faith grows over time and through testings. That’s the preparation- long before the gun is pointing in our face, or company drops in for dinner, or whatever unexpected situation we find ourselves in. We "slay the giant" long before the crisis - through life habits that build faith. Reading the bible and praying are important - yet even in those practices we can still remain untrusting. And then, we are just as unprepared as a pagan. We will inevitably resort to our fear responses – in situations far less traumatic than a murderer entering our home. It may more likely be company entering our home suddenly. That can set us into a panic too.

Consider this: As we grow stronger in trusting faith we will likely have less regrets over our actions – whatever they may be.

Meanwhile a preoccupation with hypothetical situations may rob us of the mental space and time needed to build our faith.

Diane

Consider this: As we grow stronger in trusting faith we will likely have less regrets over our actions – whatever they may be.

Meanwhile a preoccupation with hypothetical situations may rob us of the mental space and time needed to build our faith.

Diane
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I thought what you shared here was spot on! I stopped with all the "what ifs" awhile ago. I see those kinds of scenarios as attacks from the enemy for just the reason you shared, they get our minds off of JESUS and on to self and how we would react...

Keep my eyes on the LORD and HE will take care of the rest :)

God bless
mj

I am finding it very interesting that almost no one is able, or willing, to answer the question I posed in a direct manner. I have asked it in two threads now and except for a couple of responses virtually every post "asks another question", or "looks at another angle" or takes the discussion away from the topic and hijacks the thought to a different area..... but will not answer the question straight up or down.

Why is that? Fear..possibly. Sticking ones head in the sand...maybe. Just uncomfortable addressing such a topic...it could be. Something else...might be.

Hmmm... what does that tell me?

Does anyone have the courage of convictions to straight up declare they would save their daughters and wives from rape and murder with the use of deadly force?

Does anyone have the courage of convictions to straight up declare they would NOT save their daughters and wives from rape and murder with the use of deadly force and just leave whatever happens to them in God's hands?

I found the most interesting response to be the one where the poster said he would wait until they killed his family and THEN use deadly force. I did not anticipate someone giving that response.

@ roadsign - the question isn't about situational ethics. What I am looking to discover is how the ethics we who call ourselves Christians are played out in high trauma situations. In essence, how does our belief in Christ affect our actions in ultra high stress environments. How do we who call ourselves Christians respond when it isn't easy and unforseen destruction potentially rears its head. This gets much deeper into the heart of who we are. You never really know what you or others are made of, and adhere to, until we face things that place us under pressure to the point of it "revealing by fire" what we are inside.

So, again I am asking for a straight up answer.... you have 120 seconds to save the lives of your wife and daughters from rape and having their throats slit. Or....you can just leave it in God's hands and choose another course of action. If so what course would you choose.

Which is it...what exactly would you do?

I don't know if I would save them (I might die) but if someone broke into my house and did not have a weapon, I would try to physically subdue them. If they had a weapon, I would probably die trying to take it away. My wife and daughters know the Lord, by the way. They would not be able to subdue him, but they would be praying loudly in the Spirit, I am sure.

Again, if he had no weapon, I would probably subdue him as I am a pretty big guy and in good shape. But, I can't trust in myself.

Pilgrim

P.S. I don't keep my firearms at my house. It helps me to trust the Lord 100% rather than trust a false security. And He has taken care of us for 23 years. No alarms on the house, no dogs, just GOD.

Next hypothetical question?

So, again I am asking for a straight up answer...

Jesus was sometimes asked questions that required straight up answers. But he felt no obligation to answer.

Sometimes you have to change the question. Your question a case where there are some who can see much further in the field of ethics - and question the wisdom of such a question.

Diane

Quote/
What does preparation involve. Consider Eph 6: “Put on the spiritual armor of God so that when the day of evil comes you will stand firm.” That points to the thread “Slaying the Giant…” Faith is one of the key weapons in the armor:

"Without faith it is impossible to please God…”

To that, we could add: "Everything that does not come from FAITH is sin." Rom. 14: 23 But faith grows over time and through testings. That’s the preparation- long before the gun is pointing in our face, or company drops in for dinner, or whatever unexpected situation we find ourselves in. We "slay the giant" long before the crisis - through life habits that build faith. Reading the bible and praying are important - yet even in those practices we can still remain untrusting. And then, we are just as unprepared as a pagan. We will inevitably resort to our fear responses – in situations far less traumatic than a murderer entering our home. It may more likely be company entering our home suddenly. That can set us into a panic too.

Consider this: As we grow stronger in trusting faith we will likely have less regrets over our actions – whatever they may be.
/Quote

Oh, that Christians would truly get this message in Diane’s post. We must be preparing ourselves in seeking the Lord on a daily basis. We are to be filled with the Spirit to be led by the Spirit in all that we do. We are to do nothing on our own but always depending on the guidance of the Holy Spirit as we make the “Word of God” a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our pathway.

Now the question is “Should a Christian use a gun?” and to that I would reply that it all depends on if he even has a gun. Now I presently don’t have a gun but what I do have is much more powerful than a gun. Now if I had a gun in my reach and depended on it for protection and someone was about to do bodily harm to my family then I am sure that I would use it because I love my family. But I don’t depend on a gun for protection but my Lord in whom I believe will always deliver me from every evil work. Now I don’t judge others who may not have that kind of faith because I didn’t always have this kind of faith myself. I believe that it is not a flesh and blood warfare but spiritual wickedness in high places that are a work doing the evil through humans given over the prince of the power of the air. I believe as a Christian we are to put on the whole armor of God. We are to be strong in the Lord and the power of His might.

Another thing is that I don’t believe the way some pacifists believe that we are to stand by and do nothing. God has baptized me in the Holy Ghost with power from on high and I will not use that power for the destruction of God’s people, but I will be use by that power, for the destruction of evil. The bible says that we are to resist the devil and I will not stand by and allow the devil to kill, steal, and destroy. Now I believe that God can keep my family from the devil’s evil works, and I also believe that if I, my family, or neighbor is faced with someone trying to do evil to them then I have an understanding that all power has been given to Jesus and that means all power is living in me. I’m telling you that being in and under the power of the Holy Spirit I could walk right up and get right in the face of that devil and command him to obey the One who has all power. I’m telling you that God can fill you with the Holy Spirit at any time and any place for any occasion if you have been baptized and are continually being filled and led by the Holy Spirit. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus said wait until you are endued with power from on high. The Apostle Paul was stoned, beaten, persecuted, and almost killed on several occasions but that power of the Holy Spirit kept Him going. But there were times when he was used by the power of the Holy Spirit against evil, like the time when a sorcerer was trying to turn a deputy away from the faith.

Acts 13:8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

Praise the Lord, we don’t need a gun. We need the power of the Holy Spirit. Let’s prepare ourselves to seek Him until we are filled and endued with the power of the Holy Spirit.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

QUOTE:
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So, again I am asking for a straight up answer.... you have 120 seconds to save the lives of your wife and daughters from rape and having their throats slit. Or....you can just leave it in God's hands and choose another course of action. If so what course would you choose.

______________________________________________________________

I do not know. A body cannot plan that far ahead.

However, as a woman I would likely 'scream bloody-murder'. I would trust the Holy Spirit to give me the grace and where-with-all to do what I could to divert the fulfillment of evil.

I daily trust the LORD for his protection. I am a short woman, less then five feet tall. Any one could easily overpower me because I do not have the physical ability to withstand that power. When this reality sank into my consciousness, I resolved to trust my physical well-belling to the LORD. And He has. Anything dramatic? I do not know, but I do live without fear. If I ever experience fear, then I know I am in a place where evil could triumph. When this happens and it has been rare, I pray diligently for God's protection and am very alert to what may be threatening and take the necessary precautions to protect myself.

This Mennonite man who allowed his daughters to be raped...gag! I do not know of any Christian Mennonite man that would allow it! Seriously! And I live among them - this is my heritage and affiliation by choice. Mennonite men would not kill but they would work to protect their wives and daughters.

God bless.

if I shot another because he tries to shot me, or shot my, father, mother, brother, sister etc then I am acting out of the fall , as the old law says eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth, if eternal Life is present in me, in any measure the God who will not allow me to be tempted above measure will give the divine energy to bear it. Those in the eternal life of Christ are not persecution seekers but they know because the eternal Life that is working in them is of a different order than the principles that govern those in the fall and in the law they must faced persecution in different ways and in such times they know Gods best , because in such times more Life is being pour in them that they might be able to bear what seems impossible to those in the fall and in the law. If any wish to be part of the kingdom of Christ He should know in that kingdom what must govern His being is the eternal Life in Christ Jesus not the Love he have for his wife, brothers , sister, father etc. No love that he have for all this earthly relation will make him go out of order when that eternal life is working in him. In fact the reason we have wars in the world is because of “ my nation, my tribe, my race, my family “ and any who act in such principles is not acting in eternal life but the fall in the law.

Shoot.

Ruf

I am finding it very interesting that almost no one is able, or willing, to answer the question I posed in a direct manner. I have asked it in two threads now and except for a couple of responses virtually every post "asks another question", or "looks at another angle" or takes the discussion away from the topic and hijacks the thought to a different area..... but will not answer the question straight up or down.

Why is that? Fear..possibly. Sticking ones head in the sand...maybe. Just uncomfortable addressing such a topic...it could be. Something else...might be.
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IF we are told not to worry about wars, floods, famine, earth quakes...if we are told not to worry about what we will eat, where we will sleep or cloth or selves with, then why would it be alright in the eyes of the LORD to ponder on these kinds of “what if” scenarios?

If I have a plan in my head on how I will react to “possible” future situations then who is leading me daily in my life...me or JESUS?

Its interesting that Paul after being told many times that he was going to meet his end in Rome made no plan on how to handle that end he just said I am going to go...guess he wasn't focusing on the “what ifs” probably he was focused on JESUS.

(I know I did not answer your questioned but then again after much prayer about your question this was the answer I received)

God bless
maryjane

Jesus was sometimes asked questions that required straight up answers. But he felt no obligation to answer.

Sometimes you have to change the question. Your question a case where there are some who can see much further in the field of ethics - and question the wisdom of such a question.

Diane

This is why I mentioned that the "hypothetical" questions were going to start coming. And of course the one that always is at the top of the list is the most horrible and egregious thing that can be thought of.

So, are we supposed to think about the most horrible things that can happen to us and then make man-made preparations for them or are we suppose to walk in peace and trust the Lord.

I wonder what the Corrie Ten Boom's family would have done if they knew the future? Looking back, I think we could all agree that it would have been a shame if they fled Holland for the U.S.A. when WWII broke out.

Don't we teach that nothing happens in a Christian's life unless the Lord has ordained it? And, "All things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to His purposes?"

Pilgrim

I again can't agree with the "situational ethics" angle being put forth.

It is astounding to me that those who follow the Lord are unsure as to what they would do..... or that they need to stop and mull it over. Absolutely incredible to me.

Who I am determines what my reactions will be in every circumstance. The "situation" be hanged... it is irrelevant. I will bring forth the fruit in my heart in that and every "situation". It is not the "situation" I am driving at.... but what is in the heart. Circumstances simply bring to the surface what is actually there.

@ roadsign You stated

If only life could be managed that way!!!! Why - we could have control. It’s a temptation - a bite from the proverbial fruit in the Garden of Eden.

But in fact we DO manage it exactly that way every single day. For example...I will choose to go home to my wife and kids tonight and have dinner with them. We may even watch a few of the Olympic events together this evening. This healthy time spent with my family will happen for one reason...my wife and I choose to do so. The reason we will choose this is because of the God that we follow and His presence in our hearts. However, if I choose to I can just as easily hang a left at the end of the street and in 5 hours be in Canada never to return to this town again. I have a passport..credit cards..cash..etc. You will make a similar choice every day as well. We will all choose to be faithful or commit adultery.... tell the truth or lie..... speak grace or hate.... be merciful or judgemental....honor our spouse or dishonor them. However, that choice will be entirely up to you (us). I will choose to go home to my family or abandon them.... as will we all. As I said, the situation is irrelevant. It is simply the circumstance that helps us discover what is actually in our hearts. Many of us have very little insight as to what is really in there.

This exercise is one that helps us discover what we really believe and hold dear. The strength is that the time limit surfaces what is there.... no time to talk ourselves into one thing or another...120 seconds to respond.

I am also surprised that so many folks would seem to be fine with watching their wife and/or family sexually assaulted and murdered. Perhaps shocked is closer to the correct word.

Two clarifications on the original question-

1. This is obviously not "persecution" for being a believer. Some of the stances took that position... but this is not persecution for ones faith. This is just blatant sin and lawlessness. There is obviously a strong difference in scripture between persecution for following Christ and plain old crime committed against people with no reference to their faith at all.

@ Lorijean - nice find with the quote you shared about this very thing.

2. Some believe they may enter that room proclaiming Jesus name, yelling in tongues, etc. and that will cause the bad guys to flee. I know of a few stories where that happened. I also know of some where the bad guys did not flee at the prayer and followed through with their plans after killing the person who entered praying out loud against them. For the sake of this question what if they do not flee... what if they punk you out on the ground as well now making you watch it happen to all your family first before sending you into eternity... not for your faith....just because of the lust of their flesh. You could have stopped all this... but didn't. Was it the right choice?

120 seconds and it begins...what would you do?

I will choose to go home to my family or abandon them....

As I said, the situation is irrelevant. It is simply the circumstance that helps us discover what is actually in our hearts.

Intention does not determine our character quality. But, then failures do not necessarily either. Failures can help strengthen our character, if we learn through them.

Diane

It is not the "situation" I am driving at.... but what is in the heart.

What we believe is in our heart and what is actually there are not necessarily synonymous. Only God knows, and he uses testings to help us know. Remember, ancient Israel was determined they would remain faithful to the Lord. They didn't.

I would like to respond to hostile threats like Corrie Ten Boon's sister did in the concentration camp. I doubt that I have the constitution to at the present time.

Diane

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I again can't agree with the "situational ethics" angle being put forth.

It is astounding to me that those who follow the Lord are unsure as to what they would do..... or that they need to stop and mull it over. Absolutely incredible to me.

I am confident that as Christ works in me each day to will and to do for His good pleasure that He will work through me at that critical time, just like He does now in all of life's surprising circumstances.

After-all, He cautions us not to worry about what we will say when we are delivered up to the authorities, so why can't we be confident in Him that He will show us what to do in life's future situations? Does He really want us to perform mental gymnastics and try to figure out every possible heinous thing that COULD happen to us, so that we can prepare ahead of time?

Be careful that you are not presupposing God's will in the future situations that you have already deliberated about. Is that really being led by the Spirit? Are you not looking at this subject, carnally?

God's ways are not our ways, my friend.

Pilgrim

Did not Christ tell his disciples to take a sword with them on their journey? If they were to take a sword we should not feel hesitant on using a gun to protect our families or ourselves.

Did not Christ tell his disciples to take a sword with them on their journey? If they were to take a sword we should not feel hesitant on using a gun to protect our families or ourselves.

What about the many believers who had no means of defense available to them – not even a door to lock. This question would be irrelevant for many Christians. It applies to the privileged in a nation where laws permit it.

As you see, my concern has been over the thread’s question itself. Aside from the issue of self protection, I see such a question as divisive – because it places everyone in one of two categories: the nay-sayers and the yea-sayers. You can never have unity on the matter. One side will necessarily see the other as in error. And you know where that goes. They will separate themselves from each other according to opinion. That’s why the question is faulty.

Let’s apply Romans 14. Instead of food practices, apply it to guns. “One man’s faith allows him to have a gun, another man, not.” But what side has the weaker faith? (It’s the other side, right?)

Moving on with Romans 14: “He who has a gun, uses it to the Lord and gives thanks. He who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to the Lord. If we live, we live to the Lord; if we die we die to the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. You then, why do you judge your brother?”

Rom. 14 finishes with the words, “Everything that does not come from faith is sin.” That's the watershed mark: our ability to trust God.

Diane

Awesome, Diane!

I can assure you i would go for the gun. It doesnt mean i have to use it, i just have to make them think i would. And believe me, i WOULD use it if i had to, when it comes down to saving a life. When you are defending a life there is no question, not in my mind. No one respects a doormat or a coward, or at least i sure don't. You can stand there sucking your thumb or you can save a life from the hand of the wicked. Your choice. I have no problem with mine.

QUOTE: "What we believe is in our heart and what is actually there are not necessarily synonymous. Only God knows, and he uses testings to help us know. Remember, ancient Israel was determined they would remain faithful to the Lord. They didn't."==ROADSIGN

AMEN. WELL SAID.

Please stop accusing Jesus Christ of sending his disciples with swords to preached the Gospel. The Only time Jesus told his disciples to bring sword was when he was about to be arrested for the crucifixion. This he did to show forth in a practical way How the Life of those that will be in his kingdom when they faced physical persecution since the disciples were not yet born into the kingdom. Because when the disciples taught that he told them to bring forth those swords for self defense they latter found that the Lord was teaching them a principles of those that partake eternal life,towards physical persecution. The scripture below are all references just before the arrest and after the arrest.
“And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.…When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.” (LUKE 22V35-36, LUKE 22V 49-51)
“And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” (Mathew 26v51-52)
“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”(John18v36).
In the world we have three categories of people, those in the fall without the Law and those in the fall with the Law and those in the kingdom of Christ with the eternal life of Christ. Those in the fall without a law are the worst part of demonic activities in the hearts of men . They are those that attack the innocent, enslaved others , they start wars and crimes etc They will do you evil without you doing them any evil.Then we have those in the fall with the law , this are the types that will not harm you if you did not harm them but if you harm them then an eye will be for an eye. But this also results in wars because where there is no forgiveness , if for example lawless A harm lawful B and then B revenge then the revenge look worst and A have children who read the history Lawful A did to their father lawless A children get angry over it and later revenge back in Lawful B children. The cycles goes on with the effect of demonic activities for where there is no forgiveness demon will easily trod and do there things. This people in the fall with the Law are those that will keep fighting and claiming “it is my nation, my race, my family etc they want to destroy and we have to revenge” They do not see revenge as falling into temptation but in there own eyes it is pure and godly.
Then we have those in the kingdom of Christ who live by the eternal Life In Christ Jesus. This War with spiritual wickedness in high places with spiritual weapons and neverphysical weapons. They daily give there Life to be govern with eternal Life knowing in there flesh dwell no good thing. There faith is not placed on the cool and peaceful environment but the peace that is in the eternal life of Christ Jesus. In this peace of the kingdom they can suffer tribulations of various form in the world and come out victoriously if they continue a walk of Faith in Trusting God. They can bear all Loss through the strength of eternal life knowing in this natural they are just strangers and passers by.

The Only time Jesus told his disciples to bring sword was when he was about to be arrested for the crucifixion.

Good point. Actually, the disciples may as well have possessed a plastic replica – a toy. Their sword was that useless! Maybe that was the point.

Remember Peter’s pitiful attempt to cut off the solders head. He got the ear instead. Peter had a bad aim. So much for the sword.

If we believe that a “sword” might be a useful defense, we probably have little concept of the real force of evil out there. We have a poor concept of our limited capacities, of the magnitude of evil, of what might strike back at us in self-defense ….. but also of the mighty power of God.

"He must increase, I must decrease." May our “swords”, “guns”, and everything else in our stockpile of weaponry (material or non-material) serve to remind us of that.

Diane

I am charged with the protection of my family. Therefore I would not hesitate to place two shots in each one of the pedator's chest cavities. Just like Samuel, I would slay the the beast.

You might find this position repulsive, just as many find Samuel's actions repulsive. But these men are no different than the king that Samuel executed.

hi, most people who are shot are shot with their own gun... my dad, a policeman was called to a home and went in the front door to protect 2 older ladies from someone who broke in the their home... a rookie was to go in the back door... my dad saw the man and struck him in his head with his night stick whereupon the man ripped the holster off of my dads belt and killed my dad, shooting him 3 times.this man had just been paroled that week and was already a 3 time looser.the rookie froze at the back door and called for help. the perp was shot multiple times and died on the scene. would i shoot after this lesson? would you?jimpthis was in the 50s.when it was not as violent as it is today.

I am charged with the protection of my family. Therefore I would not hesitate to place two shots in each one of the pedator's chest cavities. Just like Samuel, I would slay the the beast.

Diane

Since we are charged with protecting our family, time to start fasting and praying. Much more powerful than guns because guns cannot convert the robber or preserve your own relationship with Christ.

Pilgrim

Diane asks:

"Why not be just like David, and have a slingshot on hand?"

The sling shot was a deadly weapon. Remember that David also took Goliath's sword and cut off his head.

This is getting a bit ridiculous albeit (sadly) true to life.

If we are going to revert to the OT way of doing things, then why don't we just completely ignore the life of Christ in history and the life of Christ in reality (in us) and take the offensive (like Israel did) and go out and destroy our enemies before they kill us? Men, women and children!

If we are "in charge" with protecting our families, how come we have not created entire fortresses for communities of Christians?

Personally, I leave the care of my family in His hand. He knows all and sees all and is better equipped to take care of my love ones.

Pilgrim

JiG, how did your husband respond to your 5 reasons?

pilgrim wrote:

"If we are going to revert to the OT way of doing things, then why don't we just completely ignore the life of Christ in history and the life of Christ in reality (in us) and take the offensive (like Israel did) and go out and destroy our enemies before they kill us? Men, women and children!"

I have learned that Christ is the same since the foundation of time. One cannot exclude the God of the OT. If one does, does he or she not create a god for themselves?

That is very good JiG. The OT is full of types and shadows and now we have the reality so there is no need to avenge ourselves. I have not made a "god" of my own.

The God I serve said with His own mouth:

Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
Luk 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Luk 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
Luk 6:34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

And Paul, who knew Jesus and did not worship a false god, said this:

Heb_10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

"Took joyfully the spoiling of your goods".

I think Jesus and Paul's words speak for themselves but I also know carnal doctrines will still persist in finding ways around these words in self-justification.

Pilgrim

First, I would like to say that in God's economy, the roles of men and women differ greatly. I responded to this particular thread because there was a specific circumstance illustrated. In this thread, the predators are wicked and of the nature of Satan. They are indwelled by the devil. Men are called to protect what is given to him by God.

Abraham is a perfect example. We know that Abraham had prepared and trained over 300 men to protect his family. We also know that Melchizedec blessed him after Abraham destroyed those who endangered his family. You see the motive is of critical importance here. Abraham did not destroy the kings for spoil. He attributed his success to God. You see he believed in God 's promise.

In the book of Isaiah we are given a clear picture of God's expectations for man and woman and what happens when there is a role reversal(see chapters 3 and 4). Likewise in the book of Job we find what is expected of a man of God...

Job 29:15\tI [was] eyes to the blind, And I [was] feet to the lame.

Job 29:16\tI [was] a father to the poor, And I searched out the case [that] I did not know.

Job 29:17\tI broke the fangs of the wicked, And plucked the victim from his teeth.

Abraham prepared because he saw what was happening around him. Because we have lived in peace for so long, we only know what we have experienced. But peace never lasts more than a generation or two.

Rookie,

All I can say is that Jesus is the perfect example and Abraham does not live inside me, Jesus does.

I am led by the Spirit of Christ not Abraham and the Spirit of Christ in me will love my enemies.

All the best,
Pilgrim

Hi! 'Pilgrim777'

Jus' a side-note comment I have about this Thread:

I was more than once imprisoned in the very worst penitentiary imaginable, at least on the North American continent. While I was merely a burglar an' safe-cracker, [sorry for the term 'merely' :) ], I had many opportunities to speak with every sort of criminal; including murderers.

I'll never forget what one man volunteered about his crime of murder:
He was drinking with a buddy of his at some local stream. The short story is that these two alcoholics somehow ended up in an argument and a man lay dead in the water after having his head repeatedly smashed with a rock.
Evidently, the argument was so fierce that the man knew that if he didn't kill his drinking buddy, that it was going to be him that would be dead.

Anyways, the man I was speaking to pleaded guilty and received 25 years for his crime.

He told his story to me with much regret saying, (and, I'll never forget his chilling words), "Blayne, once you kill someone, something changes inside you. You're never the same. It rips something from your sense of being human".

I've often thought about how soldiers returning from the battlefield in Iraq and Afghanistan can slide into demented states. 'Operation Enduring Freedom' has turned out to be enduring pain and mental anguish for a lot of veterans.

Surprisingly, here's something more to tell about this man:
The victim's parents had voluntarily written a letter to the Prosecutor which was never seen by the defense nor the judge during this man's trial.

The man gave me the letter to read for myself and I was utterly astonished. The parents said that they were not at all upset that their son was killed in such a manner. It was sad, but they half expected such a terrible thing to happen. They said that he was exceedingly violent and they themselves feared for their lives when he would appear at their door under the influence of alcohol.
They were pleading with the Court to be please lenient with the one who murdered their son. They closed the letter saying that they were godly people and had forgiven the murderer.

I immediately helped this man file a Petition for Appeal of his Sentence and included the parent's letter with the documents. Several months later the man came to me to say that his Sentence had been reduced to 8 years.

Now, here is more:
Some 15 years ago, this same man chased me down through MSN Chat and began to excitedly tell me about how he had found Jesus.

I had to face this question about five years ago. The specific illustration of this thread is concise.

Is everyone saying that God would never allow a believer to find himself in this situation?

//Some 15 years ago, this same man chased me down through MSN Chat and began to excitedly tell me about how he had found Jesus.//

Amen, Almost cause tears to come to my face.

by rookie on 2012/8/1 15:03:20

I had to face this question about five years ago. The specific illustration of this thread is concise.

Is everyone saying that God would never allow a believer to find himself in this situation?

_________________

Rookie I can only answer for myself and say that I am not saying that God would never allow this to happen to me...what I am saying is that I see no benefit is playing out scenarios in my head about "what if" situations. Doing so only causes two things to happen, 1. I will struggle with fear 2. It will take my focus off of CHRIST.

There are always going to be "what ifs" and possibilities but they are all beyond my control the only thing I have is today and I choose to put all my faith and trust in JESUS.

God bless
mj

Blayne,

Thank you for that true story. And praise the Lord that this man found Jesus. I have always thought (and told people) that you have to harden your heart to a certain point to kill someone.

We want to have boldness in the day of judgement.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

As He is, so are we in this world.

Are we walking as He walked? Will we have boldness?

Pilgrim

These Police have been highly trained by drills or practice sessions by being given scenarios with a gun in their hand of when to shoot and not to - yet they're increasingly messing up on this vital decision in real life. Could it be because inquity is abounding and increasing their stress, as well?

Good point, Ann! I read here a note of empathy for those whom we expect to protect us - and yes, with guns! But the ever-increasing suspicion in society makes their role much more difficult and stressful. Citizens want them to be less aggressive and more aggressive at the same time. And when they mess up – the hostility towards them is horrendous. With increasing fear comes decreasing trust and forgiveness …. and the propensity to take matters in your own hand….. which merely complicates the role of law enforcers.

I’m looking on here as an outsider. In Canada gun laws are more restricted – so for us, the original question itself is less of a consideration. (Yet, we have plenty of our own security issues.)

Still, it does raise many other factors for me. Help me out here: Does the awareness of a gun possibly being in every bedside drawer makes a society feel more secure or less secure. Certainly, if I were a traveling stranger in need at night, I would be reluctant to knock on a door for help, lest the owner fear that I am a murderer. And fear has a powerful way of making suspicion become reality in the mind’s eye.

That points back again to Romans 14, and the need to be well-rooted in trusting faith in God: “Whether I live or die, I belong to the Lord.” Not only is that a powerful antidote to fear and suspicion, it also points us to the real issue: which is not the gun in itself but our faith.

I had to face this question about five years ago. The specific illustration of this thread is concise.

Is everyone saying that God would never allow a believer to find himself in this situation?

I suspect the answer is, “No.” Yet, let’s be honest - we know how easily we can subconsciously believe: “That would never happen to me!” That’s true for any risk: cancer, fire, tornado, etc. And, let’s admit, you can assume that whether or not you own a gun. Only testings of our faith can reveal such assumptions ... that our faith may rest not on assumptions but on Jesus Christ.

I am quite certain that God doesn't measure our faith according to our plethora of security features but according to the actual foundation of our faith - in our hearts.

Diane

It seems we have empathy for those who do the work of Satan with the hope that they might find Jesus. Yet not one has stated any empathy for the people that are killed by those who follow Satan.

I also find that this thread is directed at husbands and fathers, yet it is only the women who respond.

I myself will protect my family. I myself will protect the innocent, like those who were killed in Colorado. Just think of who might have been "saved" if someone had stopped the one indwelled by the devil.

Where is your empathy for the weak and the poor? Where is your empathy for those who suffer because of the work of Satan?

All "what if" is hard to answer, i think a good rule is to instead of put myself in a "what if" question is to put what would our Lord do? He is our forerunner, our example, so by the principles i find in scripture how can I apply that to my life, thoughts, actions. What would Jesus do in this situation given my understanding of the principles laid out in scripture?

If we are much in the word and enlightened by The Spirit we will find answers. So many times it is not right to make an absolute rule to a "what if" situation. Its also a matter how the heart and motive behind an action.

2 different people or children of God can preform the exact same thing, do the same action and one be good in the Lords sight and the other the very opposite because of his heart and motive behind.

I guess using a gun can also be like that, myself have come to the conclusion i think I would not, i do not ever see our Lord take arms, and our weapons are not carnal. this is just my own understanding, but how would i react in a "what if" situation? to be honest i do not know, would i stand still and do nothing if something threatened my family? i am certain i would not, would i shoot someone? i dont think so but it is hard to know how we react in such situation, all i know is if we have given all to our Lord he will guide us in all things.

But in general if we by all our hearts try follow the Lords example we will not go wrong.

hmmhmm wrote:

"All "what if" is hard to answer, i think a good rule is to instead of put myself in a "what if" question is to put what would our Lord do? He is our forerunner, our example, so by the principles i find in scripture how can I apply that to my life, thoughts, actions. What would Jesus do in this situation given my understanding of the principles laid out in scripture?"

Now we are getting somewhere...

You have pointed out an important precept. I should not say that I am certain that I would respond in the same way in every situation. If the Lord chooses to intercede, I should respond according to His direction.

This idea, "what would the Lord do?" is critical to the decisions that we make. Many speak of the testimony we have in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Many refer to the "example" He set before His resurrection. Many use this "example" as a guideline to be modeled. Yet faith based on this "example" does not give the individual understanding into what his response should be according to the circumstances he or she finds one self in.

hmmmhmmm writes:

"I guess using a gun can also be like that, myself have come to the conclusion i think I would not, i do not ever see our Lord take arms, and our weapons are not carnal."

2Cr 10:2 But I beg [you] that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.

2Cr 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.

2Cr 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,

2Cr 10:5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

I believe we often take this Scripture out of context. Paul is speaking about his authority over the Corinthian church. He states that the Corinthians look to him "in the flesh" as being weak. Yet Paul states that the real power comes from the Spirit. That the word of God is mighty and powerful. And that the word of God is used to the "pulling down of strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself the knowledge of God."

For me, according to this tread, the "what if" can not be dismissed off handedly. I see that Scripture differentiates between the roles of men and women. I see that when the men have not lived according to the ways God has established, the weak and the poor suffer.

Based on Isaiah 3 and 4, in times of unfaithful generations of men, women rule over them. When judgement comes to that generation, and the evil is removed, the men are restored, the women seek for the security that men offer. This statement is not meant to silence the women on this thread. This statement is made to acknowlege the economy of God. This statement is made to affirm what Scripture teaches.

We often hold up the "example" of Christ and how He responded to every situation that He was confronted with. You see this "example" is really "what He was called to do." He was so to speak "assigned" with the task to offer Himself as a sacrifice for God's creation. And we too are "called by God to be a living sacrifice" in His plan.

Yet our "calling" is not the same as Christ's "calling." We are given many "examples" or "testimonies" of men and women who lived by faith, that is those who obeyed the voice of God and found the path to life. The "calling" of the individual is subject to the plan of God. It is God who works out the details of His plan.

There was a time where I segmented God into categories. I seperated the OT god from the NT god. I would also point out the "example" given to us in the gospels. Yet as I learn from the Scriptures, the more uncertain, of anything I am as to "knowing", what God is doing at any moment in time. Who am I to judge another servant of the Lord in regards to what the Lord has "called" him to do.
His "calling" is as numerous as the grains of sand found in the ocean.

So the "examples" given to us of faithful men and women are a representation of His "callings." Each one is found faithful for responding to the "call" that God has placed on the individual. Therefore I can not deny a "calling" of God for such as a Caleb or a David, because these men did not try to "model" Christ. I instead seek to understand how that "calling" fits into God's plan.

Interesting thoughts so far. I wonder if the overall site views are a much higher female population or if they are just the ones responding in larger numbers on this thread.

It seems there are also several misconceptions that keep being perpetuated. In the interest of clarity please allow me to highlight a few of the more obvious ones-

1. The idea has been put forth that to own firearms that can be used to provide lethal force in a life/death self protection situation somehow mean one is trusting in the firearm and not on God. It has been said that to own them with the knowledge they might be used indicates lack of trust in God.

I RESPOND: If a person actually believes that then let me ask a few other questions of them. Do you have locks on your doors? Do you at times lock them? If so that would seem to be hypocrisy as you are by your own definition "trusting something other than the Lord" for a degree of safety.

Further, do you use seat belts... why, don't you trust the Lord to keep you safe and not the item? Do you at times take medication or go to a doctor.. why.. don't you trust the Lord? Do you teach your kids to read and obey traffic signs, not play in the street, or walk with strangers?..Why? Don't you trust the Lord. I can go on and on.. however, the point is clear. I would no more be trusting in a firearm for my safety, if I own one, than I am trusting the seat belt for my safety. In both cases they are simply tools that are hopefully never used. However, I trust in God and am willing to use the tools he puts at my disposal if needed.

2. The scripture of Jesus telling the disciples that, "Those who live by the sword die by the sword".

I RESPOND: True. Ask any dictator that has gone that route. However, "living by" the sword has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with saving the life of an innocent from attack. They have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

3. Using scriptures that apply only to persecution for righteousness sake as a proof text for non firearm ownership.

I RESPOND: That is unfaithfully handling the Word of God. I think it is agreed here that the scripture clearly teaches 2 things concerning PERSECUTION FOR THE FAITH. One is that it tells us to at times flee from it. The second is that at times we may be called to stand and be a witness in it. In either case it is to be met with non violence. That has been true historically and should be in our lives if it happens. I, and probably all here, agree with that. However, the discussion has NOTHING to do with persecution. The scriptures dealing with persecution for the faith also have nothing to do with heinous crimes randomly committed on innocent people. It is heinous crimes committed by criminals on random people....not persecution for faith in Christ. These random people, regardless of faith, are your family members.

4. Several guys have stated they would allow their wives/daughters to be raped, mutilated, and murdered. They would not use lethal force to stop it. One said he would allow them to do this to his family... and only after they killed his family THEN would he take lethal action.

I RESPOND: I don't know what exact vows you used in your wedding ceremony. However, in addition to our own we used one of the sets from the wedding ceremony manual I use for services. Fairly basic and historic. It states- "I promise before God and these witnesses to LOVE, HONOR, CHERISH AND PROTECT this woman from this day forward...."

Guys...you made a vow before God and those witnesses to PROTECT her! To fail in this responsibility is to abandon the vow you made before God, those witnesses, and her!

If you asked her father for her hand in marriage were you honest enough to say that you would not protect her and would allow her rape, mutilation, or murder if it meant that to protect her you might have to use lethal force?!?!?!

Honestly..will you go tell that to her dad? Did you have the guts to when you asked to marry her?

God forbid any guy ever ask for my daughters hand that doesn't have the dedication to her that he would protect her!

If I were a married female I think I would be absolutely shocked, sickened, and ashamed to know that the one God gave to protect me was willing to possibly abdicate that responsibility and allow the worst of terrors to happen to me... not for my faith... but because they didn't think the innocent should be protected from the guilty!

If it came to it I would rather explain to the police why there are 2 dead intruders in my house with holes in their chests than explain to my inlaws, and my other children, why I simply watched as their daughter, mother, and sisters were raped, mutilated, and murdered.

Is this nothing more than the "feminization" of the men in the church? Most churches make the guys check their masculinity and testosterone at the door to feel welcome. That's why attendance in mainline denominations is often some 65-75 percent female.

5. It has been said that Jesus told His disciples to get a sword only to show it isn't to be used at Gethsemane.

I RESPOND: That would seem to be an absolute butchery of the Word. The entire story is told of how on their first missionary journey they were not to take a sword(for protection), a purse (to hold money), or a bag ( to hold provisions).. but that he would supply them. After they learned the lesson that He was the true source Jesus told the that from now on THEY WERE TO TAKE a sword (for protection), a bag (to hold money), and a purse(to hold provisions).

If the sword were to longer be taken then neither were bag or purse. They are obviously listed together as a "package" if you will. However, they clearly were supposed to be taken. There is not one single scripture that indicates they were to negate these words from Christ.

If you actually believe He no longer wanted them to take a sword then you must delete the other items as well. Do you have something so you CAN TAKE MONEY/CASH WITH YOU?.. say a billfold or purse...then that would seem to be hypocritical! Do you ever travel with ANY CLOTHES AT ALL except the ones on you back...that would seem to be be practicing hypocrisy! So..if you want to abandon the sword statement of Jesus then also never carry cash/credit cards/debit cards/ or ways to pay for things.... or ever have more than the clothing on your back or it looks pretty clear that would constitute hypocrisy. That is right there in the Word for all to see.

SO... with no commands to negate his words to them to take these things THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN IN DISOBEDIENCE TO NOT TAKE ALL THREE ITEMS....SWORD INCLUDED!

Unless they disobeyed Christ the Apostles were normally armed. I know that won't sit well with some.... but it is in the scripture. There is little else to do with it. He told them to take sword, purse, and bag. No record exists of that changing. Hard to believe that they disobeyed Him and didn't take those things.

There is no scripture anywhere to prove that the disciples disobeyed Jesus on this statement. Some may not like that.... but there is no scripture found that says these words of Jesus went into non effect.

I am not saying that a person should or should not own firearms. I am however making the point that to own them, and under certain difficult circumstances use them in a lethal fashion, is in no way inconsistent with scripture. God forbid any here ever face this dilemma. However, if one does they are well within the boundaries of scripture to save their wife and daughters from rape, mutilation, and murder with the use of lethal force.

Well.. hopefully that helps move the discussion along. I have enjoyed reading everyones input!

Blessings!

CAPS used to emphasize words and phrases only. No yelling was intended.

edited to make an example first person as opposed to "general" application

Solomon101 wrote:Ladies...how does it feel to know that the one God gave to protect you is willing to possibly abdicate that responsibility and allow the worst of terrors to happen to you... not for your faith... but because they don't think the innocent should be protected from the guilty.

___________________

I am stunned that you would write such ugly and unloving thing in this forum and for what? So you can have your say or win a debate. Really?? Did you stop for one moment and consider that with these words you might actually cause strife between husbands and wives? To imply that any husband would knowingly allow harm to his family is not right you have no idea what others hold in their hearts or what GOD has lead them too.You make a judgement with your words that you have no right making. I am just so sad to see you write these words here like this, you go to far! I pray no harm comes to any marriages because of your thoughtless words...

mj

To build an important and controversial doctrine of self-defense with deadly force on one scripture (taking a sword on their 2nd missionary journey), is bad homiletics at best and eisegesis at worse. Major, important doctrines that send your son's and daughter's off to war and slay robbers better have many scriptures (legs) for it to stand on. You have failed to present this important doctrine from the life of Christ and His Apostles and the Early Church. That's 3 strikes. You're out!!

On the other hand we have many words from Jesus and the Apostles contrary to this carnal doctrine of self-defense with deadly force. You want to protect your family...then fast and pray.

Jesus is our standard. His Spirit living in us will not contradict how He lived and how He died. "As He is in this world so are we" and the Spirit of Christ living in us (if He does), will change us to be like Christ (if we yield to Him and bring our will into harmony with His).

Blessings to all,
Pilgrim

In Genesis 14 we have this testimony of faith.

Gen 14:18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he [was] the priest of God Most High.

Gen 14:19 And he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;

Gen 14:20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." And he gave him a tithe of all.

Abraham, who according to Scripture, who prepared for an event where he was called to protect his family, had just returned from destroying those who meant harm to his family. He chased the predators for over a hundred miles in order to restore his family. Then we have this testimony above in Scripture...

You see the High Priest Melchizedek blessed Abraham and established that God had given him the victory.

Going back again to the call of God for men to protect what God has given him. You see Lot was the nephew of Abraham. And according to the Law which had not yet been given to man through Moses, in that Law, God has given Abraham the responsibility of caring for his dead brother's son. You see the law being established through faith. And faith comes by the hearing of the word of God. It was God who "called" upon Abraham to protect his family.

The word of God is able to tear down the strongholds of Satan. One of those strongholds has been revealed in this thread.

rookie,

We have this testimony, too.

Mar 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the HARDNESS of YOUR HEART he wrote you this precept.

And we have this testimony:
Num 31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

Num 31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

Num 31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

Num 31:17 Now therefore KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, and KILL EVERY WOMAN that hath known man by lying with him.

So, what was your point, again?

And where does this rationalizing and self-justification stop? Only on your property, or anytime your person is threatened, (including when your country is invaded). Where do you draw the line?

Pilgrim

Again...taking one verse and ignoring the others that bring the full picture is to do one of 2 things

1. enjoying a game of see-saw

2. Creating a man made doctrine that is not based in the truth.

Pilgrim

Hey J.I.G

You wrote

Solomon wrote: "The idea has been put forth that to own firearms that can be used to provide lethal force in a life/death self protection situation somehow mean one is trusting in the firearm and not on God."

I didn't realize this had gone beyond just defending the innocent to SELF protection. To Kill Someone Else To Stay Alive Yourself?

Blast them to Hell so that you don't have to go to Heaven any sooner than YOU determine to? ... and you question us questioning your Trust in GOD, Pastor?

I think if you will reread that you will see that it was not me making that statement. I said,

The idea has been put forth

I am quoting other posts... not my own. It was a quote.. not a statement.

I think that is fairly clear as NOT ONCE did I mention self protection in any of the posts. It has ALWAYS been about saving innocents in my reasonings.

I agree with you that self defense is a different topic and therefore requires different lines of thought. Using lethal force to defend your wife and kids from imminent danger is a different issue than me defending myself.

Both are worth discussing. However, I agree... they are certainly very different issues!

Also...I moved the dialogue to one side to point by point address some of the baseless statements being made. However, did you read the last statement-

I stated

I am not saying that a person should or should not own firearms. I am however making the point that to own them, and under certain difficult circumstances use them in a lethal fashion, is in no way inconsistent with scripture. God forbid any here ever face this dilemma. However, if one does they are well within the boundaries of scripture to save their wife and daughters from rape, mutilation, and murder with the use of lethal force.

That is it really. Men have abdicated so much of their responsibilities in our current society. There are many more... priest of the home...example to their children. Obviously, thank God for the ones who have not... but it is fair to say that family protection along with other areas have seen men often fail to embrace their responsibility before God.

I made a marriage vow. I stated.. "I promise before God and these witnesses to LOVE, HONOR, CHERISH AND PROTECT this woman from this day forward...." I actually meant mine. Some guys do... some may not. I did.

Hey Jig-

Yeah...I think you are entirely missing my point on that one. Maybe it is a failure to connect on what is intended. Maybe it was unclear... maybe you were expecting it to say something it actually didn't...I don't know...I guess it doesn't really matter.

The entirety of that point was simply the line that states

I would no more be trusting in a firearm for my safety, if I own one, than I am trusting the seat belt for my safety. In both cases they are simply tools that are hopefully never used. However, I trust in God and am willing to use the tools he puts at my disposal if needed.""

The one, only, and singular point I am trying to share is that these inanimate objects..guns, cars, door locks, safety belts, shoes, whatever it might be... are all just amoral tools. We can use them for good or evil. I do not put faith in locks, cars, politicians, or guns. As I stated, my faith, and most here, is clearly in God.

These things are simply tools. I do not put faith in any of them... but I will use the ones in my reach if they are needed. That can mean a lawnmower, hammer, or gun if it is to defend my loved ones.

That is it. Nothing more, less,or else.

People in this thread have stated that to own firearms means you do not trust God. I strongly disagree. To own them no more means you trust them and not God than buckling up your seat belt means you do not trust God.

You can certainly lock your front door, buckle your seat belt, and own firearms... all while having deep abiding faith in Christ!

Those are just tools that I pray you never , or anyone on SI ever, needs!

Blessings JIG. I appreciate your passion. You do misunderstand my posts greatly. However, that is ok.

I obviously take the protection of family as a sacred responsibility before God. Some do not... and some do but in different ways.

However, to keep it on a discussion level is healthy and lets us consider things in ways we may not have before.

I pursue this thread, not to bring division, but to bring clarity to the thread's focus. The source of disagreement is not based on guns really. It is based on divided view of God.

In this thread, and others that I have participated in, many have not understood why Abraham is given as a prime example of faith. We gentiles hold the ministry of Paul above all others, and to a certain extent, this is right. For we are gentiles and God called Paul to this reveal this dispensation.

With that said, why do we gentiles neglect Paul's use of Abraham as primary testimony of how God creates faith in men?

Is Paul wrong or is our understanding of faith wrong?