Should Christians Kill People?

Ok, how about putting an even finer point on this business about Christians and guns?

Let's just ask this: "Should a Christian Kill People".

Gun, knives, poison, beating, drowning or whatever.

Should Christians kill people? What does the New Testament teach and what was the practice of the Early Church?

Pilgrim

Part of the problem here is that Christianity is a life and death matter. I expect that on the morning when he got up that day Peter had no idea of what was going to happen to Ananias and Sapphira. They were killed, and Peter's own words were a part of that.

How about when Paul turned people over to Satan that they should learn not to blaspheme? It can get pretty rough out there. Jesus himself said it would be proper to hang a millstone on the neck of a person leading children astray and cast them into the sea...

I say let the discussion roll.

I feel that God has been drasticaly changing me on this issue, I was raised very strongly in the belief of self defense and the defense of others.

Through dreams almost nightmares God has been teaching me to lean back on Him and not self relience, When I lean back on Him in these dreams, the powers of dark disapear when I lean on my own relience I wake up terrafied.

Having said that, I sometimes ponder on things like flight 93. If what was reported is accurate did the passengers respond correctly???

I think this thread should stay open merely because we have been dancing around the issue of Christians killing in self-defense. Jesus and the Apostles taught non-resistance and with what is coming in the near future regarding the 2nd amendment and that there may be severe restrictions on guns, this is a conversation that needs to take place especially since we live in a country where "Patriotism" and "Christianity" are closely linked in people's minds.

So, put your "guns" away and stop trying to suppress a badly needed conversation. We can keep this thread from going nuclear.

My father was a Colonel in the Army and served in Vietnam twice. I served once and actually found the Lord in the service. My uncles and brothers were in the military, too. At one point in my active duty service I respectfully requested to not have to carry my .45 on watch. I did not want to get out of the Navy, I just did not want to carry the .45 anymore. After a couple of days, my Commanding officer told me that they had decided to take me off that particular duty and reassigned me as the Captain's chauffeur which opened many more doors of witnessing to me. Each time in the Navy, when the Lord revealed a truth to me and I obeyed Him, He took care of the rest.

Now, I like to shoot guns and hunt and am a member of a Hunting organization, but I have very solid convictions through God's Word and Holy Spirit that I am not to harm any man. PERIOD! What about you? I know that we all go from faith to faith and glory to glory and no one should be criticized if they don't have faith in certain areas. Let this be a thread of testimonies and don't take anything personal.

People always ask hypothetical questions and they do this to nullify God's Word and excuse themselves. I know the hypothetical questions will come and they may become the focal point instead of God's Word and the Early Church practice in this thread, but I hope not.

Did you know that in the Early Church if a Roman soldier came to the Lord they were denied the Lord's supper if they carried a weapon and fought. Have you read in Martyr's Mirror of the Roman soldiers who laid down their arms and were tortured before they were killed?

God's Spirit really does change people and takes away all fear of man. Our security is in Him. Do you pray for His protection more than you think about "defending" yourself?

So, what saith the Lord and let's consider what "country" we belong to? What City we are looking for and what Kingdom we are members of? Let the conversation continue...

:-)

Pilgrim

P.S. Hey there JeffMar, I am happy to say I have been reprogrammed by the Word of God. :-)

not directed to any one personly.

Something I have noticed is that it is easy to be a Pacifict theolgicaly and even Nonresistant theolgicaly. Most Political Pasifist that I know, I would not consider to be Personaly Nonresistant. And even many that I know whom claim that they would be Personaly Nonresistant if serious trial came there way, I find often fail at being Personaly Nonresistant on a smaller scale. If a serious trial comes our way in which it very well might for me, We must be able to step out of the flesh and into the protecting Hand of God. To truly be personally nonresistant in time of trial will take supernatural help.

David bercots "the kingdom that turned the world upside down" Has had more of an impact on my views of the subject than any other books.

Something I have noticed is that it is easy to be a Pacifict theolgicaly and even Nonresistant theolgicaly. Most Political Pasifist that I know, I would not consider to be Personaly Nonresistant. And even many that I know whom claim that they would be Personaly Nonresistant if serious trial came there way, I find often fail at being Personaly Nonresistant on a smaller scale. If a serious trial comes our way in which it very well might for me, We must be able to step out of the flesh and into the protecting Hand of God. To truly be personally nonresistant in time of trial will take supernatural help.

Yes, it will take supernatural help, but isn't that what us Christians are supposed to be all about...our supernatural God which dwells in us. So, I agree with you.

I also agree with you that Pacifism is not necessarily non-resistant. And just to be clear, Jesus did not teach or walk in Pacifism. He taught Non-resistance and there is a big difference between Pacifism and Non-Resistance.

Pacifism is actually rebellion against God, because it supports work stoppages, "peaceful" REBELLION, PROTESTS, and all other manner of the ARM OF THE FLESH.

Psa 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

When you really find out that you are not to use weapons and harm anyone, you then realize all you have is God (as if that is not enough) and it's time to get close to Him.

Please listen to this riveting testimony when you get a chance.

http://jesusourallinall.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-margie-mayfield-story.html

Pilgrim

RE: //When you really find out that you are not to use weapons and harm anyone, you then realize all you have is God (as if that is not enough) and it's time to get close to Him//

Amen

Hi Jeff, I assume you where speaking to "Sidewalk when you wrote // Cash bet you're ex-military. Brainwashing upon entrance into the military is intentional and for a reason.//

"conscious objector route"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45869&forum=35

Maybe a different perspective.

Israel often considered such questions, and still does to this day. Since they live under the law, they are bound to try to keep the law through their own fleshly efforts. So it is with the mind alone that they must consider what God would have them do. Enter Talmudic tradition. They would enter into a long discussion of what exactly constitutes killing another person. Though to some this may seem a simple task, it can occupy hour upon hour of debate and wrangling until a good definition is finally reached, and the definition may vary based upon the minute circumstances of the event. Once the definition is reached, then judges must wrangle with each new case, comparing it to the teaching of the rabbis.

The new covenant deals with the heart, or spirit, of man. We are reborn by the Spirit of God and, according to 1 Cor. 2, now possess the mind of Christ. We learn to be governed by the internal leading of the Holy Spirit is concerned. We should begin to act in accordance with the Spirit of God, as we are indwelt by that same Spirit.

So I am confident that we cannot gain the heart of God on the matter through trying to reason out what it means to kill another. I do know that under the law God did not say that one man shall not kill another. He said, "Thou shalt commit no murder." I do know that murder, premeditated or no, comes from sin in the heart and not from a lack of understanding of what the law has to say about killing.

Jesus said, If a man hates his brother it is as if he has killed him in his heart already. In other words, murder is the physical manifestation of something that was already present in the heart of a man. So the real issue, perhaps, is not, "Should a Christian Kill?", but rather, "Do I as a Christian harbor hatred, bitterness, unforgiveness, etc. in my heart toward any man?"

No.

The question brings to mind only a few situations where that would be possible: being a soldier or an officer of the law or defense of self or other lives. In either case killing would not have to be an act of murder though it could be.

I can't help but wonder if these threads were born from the DB threads and his involvement in the plot against Hitler. It is a good thing to ask.

I wonder what Abraham was going through upon hearing God's command to kill Isaac. Did he believe God would prevent it? If he believed God would raise Isaac he still would have had to kill him.

Did he have to come to a place of choosing to obey God although he knew killing is "wrong"?

Zionshiled stated

I wonder what Abraham was going through upon hearing God's command to kill Isaac. Did he believe God would prevent it? If he believed God would raise Isaac he still would have had to kill him.

Did he have to come to a place of choosing to obey God although he knew killing is "wrong"?

That is a great thought and perspective Zionshield!

Many here may know that the book of Hebrews makes that exact point. Abraham did indeed receive his son "back to life" in a way as he believed God would raise him from the dead after Abraham slew him in obedience to God's command.

Your initial thoughts are also well taken.

Those who have a working knowledge of Hebrew... or anyone who is willing to do basic word studies with the reference tools available , realize that the actual command of God was not , "Thou Shall Not Kill" but rather "Thou Shall Not Commit Murder". There is a world of difference!

There are certainly times that in harmony with God's law it is the correct choice of action to use lethal force. They are limited and precise... but those times do exist.

Jesus brought a new way of thinking, but first He lived that life before all of us.

The Bible says, that "as He is in the world, so are we".

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

How about this one for faith and love?

My wife and daughters don't want me to kill anyone, no matter what!

Pilgrim

@ Pilgrim777

I, for one at least, appreciate your brutal honesty and willingness to at least make a stand!

Are you then saying that your wife and daughters have stated to you that they prefer you to ALLOW them to be raped and murdered as opposed to using lethal force to defend them if the situation were to ever arise?

Again brother, I appreciate the fact you are willing to make a stand one way or another. I know these are hard questions... but we may well need to answer them as believers in the days ahead.

Blessings!

Whoa, Jeffmar!

I think you have missed my point entirely! We are living in a place and time somewhat rare in history where we have lavish freedom to discuss the way we feel about killing, compassion, the laws of man and the laws of God. It has not been so for most of human history, and killing has been the template for human governance most of that time. Jesus recognized it, as did Paul and the other apostles.

In no way does my being a brainwashed ex-military person change anything, I only relate that I have seen killing close up, heard the shrieks, smelled the blood. If anything, my wartime experience which is nearly 40 years old, gives me a love of life and healing I probably wouldn't have had without it. I came to this site because I am passionate for the Lord Jesus, His Kingdom, His people, and everything else He loves. Actually, I love you!

I often don't open up on the forum because I am listening to the messages available here while I work.

Back to what I think you misinterpreted. I believe that God's own passion for His children has always been a life and death matter. He is not willing that any should perish but that all might come to repentance- clearly letting the hearer know that those who refuse repentance will certainly perish. Stretching a bit further, those who ensure that others perish come under a fearful condemnation of a Holy God.

Jesus own teaching in the parables had kings ordering the death of evil people in his presence. So much for "Gentle Jesus Meek and Mild..."

A parable in Matthew 22 has a man whose only crime is that he is attending a wedding feast without a proper wedding garment. He is not just bounced to the street, he is remanded to what can only be described as Hell! And this is New Testament!

No, Jesus was not given to hanging millstones on people, and Peter did not order Ananias' and Sapphira's execution. But the Holy Spirit is not to be trifled with. God has incredible patience, but an end is coming. He has given us more than enough warning.

You and I are under obligation, as Paul puts it in 1Tim 1:5, to pursue love from a pure heart, have a good conscience, and express a sincere faith.

Well said Paul! That's all I want anyway. Oh God keep washing my brains in the sweet water of Your Word!

Hey there Solomon,

We have been following the persecuted church for over 30 years and know quite well how Christians are treated. We also know how Christians have responded in many ways. Some with force and others "as lambs led to the slaughter".

This is not a new topic to us and we have met and talked with those that have "resisted against blood".

I can tell you that my wife and daughters and myself really believe this:

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are not fearful, we don't walk in fear, we don't fear the future, we don't fear man, we are not making preparations to defend ourselves as we don't see that in the Word and we are not led by the Spirit to do that. We trust the Lord that He has a purpose for everything that He allows in our lives and I think that is the bottom line. We entrust our future in His hands and no hypothetically, macabre "what ifs" are going to make us second guess the way that God is leading us. We are ready to die for Him if that will save the killer of our body.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The thing about "defending" oneself, is where does it stop?

First it is the rapist, then the robber, then we self-justify that we must take up arms against a Dictator taking over our country (even though we are suppose to obey all in authority - written to Roman Christians), then we justify that we must defend the worldly nation we live in against another nation which is being aggressive against us. Then we justify that we must go and defend our allies since we cannot let evil take over the world. And before you know it, you are killing all kinds of people just to "save your own life". And, in the end, you (speaking generally here) sit self-assured that you have done God's will and been on the side of RIGHT.

Where do you stop defending yourself and saving your life?

Do you really want to start asking hypothetical questions? I could ask you a lot. But, all you have to ask yourself, is at what point would you stop killing?

I have heard people say, that if I was being persecuted for the Gospel sake then I would not defend myself, but if the Gospel had nothing to do with it, then I would do anything to defend myself. There is a danger in that thinking. Do you know what it is?

Peace,
Pilgrim

Pilgrim777 -

Thanks for your input brother. I appreciate it greatly.

I feel we may need to hash out these issues now so we don't have to hash them out under the eyes of the persecutors.

Thanks again bro. You have my deepest respect for taking a stand one way or another.

May the peace of God rule and reign in your heat and life by Christ Jesus. I pray that you will have the wisdom of God to lead and guide you in your decisions in the days to come and that you will be anointed with His words to speak life to those He brings you into contact with.

Blessings!

It seems that Jesus taught personal non-resistance- i.e turning the other cheek. I agree with BT regarding this.

He did not teach that we should not protect the innocent. If anyone sees somewhere that He did, please point it out.

It is not loving to stand by an allow an innocent person to be maimed, raped or killed if we are able to prevent same. It may be that in the process of preventing this the bad guy may die. I honestly beieve that in this situation the Lord will understand.

It would be far more unloving to spare the life of an evil person and let him have his way with an innocent person, than to take his life and spare the innocents. An evil person perpetrating a violent crime is reaping what he sows. He shouldn't get a "pass" from believers.

Anyways, IMO it is ok for a Christian to kill a person in the appropriate circumstance. it is never okay, obviously, for a Christian to murder a person.

TMK wrote:

"Anyways, IMO it is ok for a Christian to kill a person in the appropriate circumstance. it is never okay, obviously, for a Christian to murder a person."

Have any NT scripture to prove this?

BTW, did you read Blayne's testimony? Inspiring read...

"to permit murder when one could have prevented it is morally wrong. To allow a rape when one could have hindered it is an evil. To watch an act of cruelty to children without trying to intervene is morally inexcusable. In brief, not resisting evil is an evil of omission, and an evil of omission can be just as evil as an evil of commission. Any man who refuses to protect his wife and children against a violent intruder fails them morally." ~~Norman Geisler and JP Moreland, "The Life and Death Debate: Moral Issues for Our Time"

Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword (Lk 22:36). A plain reading of the passage is that the sword was to be used in self-defense.

What kind of man would stand by and watch their wife or daughter be raped, or what kind of woman would allow their young child to be kidnapped w/o resisting? If an action to defend against and possibly kill the evildoer is "immoral" then what does "moral" mean?

As to NT "proof" obviously there is no direct statement or else we would not be having this discussion.

But this may suffice, from Romans 14:

"Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’

12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another."

Obviously if a person thinks it would be a sin to kill an evil person in order to protect an innocent person or persons from his evil action, then yes it would be a sin for that person. But the converse is also true. Like I said, I am sure God would understand and give grace in such a situation.

Quite frankly, I cannot imagine Jesus or any NT apostle standing idly by and allowing a child to be kidnapped or harmed, or a woman to be raped if it was in their power to prevent it. The lack of any NT examples cannot be taken as an indication of what they would or would not have done.

The admonitions of "turning the other cheek" applies to mild insults and slanders and persecutions and the like. This is far different from defending oneself or others against a mugger, murderer or rapist.

After seeing this thread (and the others like it), I have been pondering something.

There are many brethren who are "non-resistant" and would never pick up a sword or gun. Yet, some are very quick to use words that harm, strike or discourage others.

We must realize the precept before than the application of this topic. We must love not just the world, but even brethren with whom we might agree. We should not "strike" with our words and thoughts.

The old adage about "sticks and stones" is true. Words can be more damaging to a heart, mind and reputation than any thrust of a sword of strike of a bullet.

May the Lord help us to love...and to show that love...and make that love evident in all that we say or do. The world will know that we are His because we love one another. If we can't love our brethren, then how can we claim to love God?

I Corinthians 13
I John 4:7-8
Galatians 5:22-23

Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword (Lk 22:36). A plain reading of the passage is that the sword was to be used in self-defense.

Hi TMK,

The only explanation that I've heard (that makes sense) regarding this scripture is Jesus was asking how many swords that they had on hand to literally fulfill the prophesy of Isaiah 53:12 "and was numbered with the transgressors..." transgressors being plural.

If they had one sword it would have been 'transgressor' but to literally fulfill the prophesy they had to have 2 swords.

To me this has been the only explanation that makes sense because He said in Matthew 26:52 “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." note the word ALL, including Christians.

Anyway $.02 added :-)

Most robbers and rapists that break into homes with an entire family there (including the husband) usually have weapons. Most true believers in the world (not just the U.S.) don't have weapons because they have no need of them. Most Christian men who don't have weapons would certainly try to physically subdue the attacker if their speaking to the attacker did not convince them to stop. But, if the attacker had a weapon the father/husband would most probably be killed.

Jesus told the disciples to get a sword to fulfill scripture that "he was numbered with the transgressors". Certainly, two swords were enough because it only took one sword to cut off the guy's ear. Did Jesus commend Peter? On the contrary, He scolded Peter. He did not tell them to get a sword so that He could be defended but so that scripture could be fulfilled. Two swords were enough for that, but certainly not enough to protect Jesus against a large company of men.

Remember, that God operates in the Spirit and so do His children and God does not operate on the level of "morals".

If God operated on the level of morals, then yes, Christians should pick up arms and slay all the "wicked" men in the world, but God does not operate on that level. The Bible is not a moral guidebook. The Holy Spirit leads us and teaches how to walk and what to say.

"Morality is part of the condition of the fall. Now endowed with the power to define good and evil, to elaborate it, to know it and to pretend to obey it, man can no longer renounce this power which he has purchased so dearly. He must exercise it. He (fallen man) cannot live without morality." (Jacques Ellul)

Pilgrim

Hey Learjet--

I have heard that interpretation as well and it may be correct.

But it begs the question as to what Jesus (or Peter, or Paul) would have done if a young child was being brutalized by a thug right in front of them. I think the thug may have been in serious trouble.

Once again, I cannot envision them just standing there and doing nothing. It is not a sin to use violence to protect the innocent.

If there are people here who think that it is, i guess that is okay. There will just never be a meeting of the minds on this topic, and again I believe that God grants grace in this area. I.e. I don't think He frowns on a person who uses violence to protect the innocent.

TMK, God sees young children abused everyday - what is He doing about it? You are trying to measure God by your own sense of morality and if you do that, you will only conclude that God is unjust and unloving (and evil) because it is within His power to intervene and stop all the wicked injustices in this world.

So, what do you think of God now that you know He sees everything that is happening on earth, has the power to stop evil, terrible things that happen to children but does not?

Is He just standing there and doing nothing? How come He is not using "violence to protect the innocent"?

Do you see, that you cannot measure God or His children by your sense of "morality"?

Pilgrim

Hi! 'Pilgrim777'

As you know, I'm guilty of introducing a shade of this same issue in an earlier Thread; however, I worded it rather ambiguously. But you had the courage to overtly confront the issue head-on. I honor you for that!

It's questions like this which invite us to examine the very core substance of our belief and faith; revealing our Christian posture in a way that perhaps no other issue can so dramatically do so.
As such, it can be often uncomfortable for many of us to give answer to the issue in the same head-on manner which it was asked.
But answer it we must ... hypothetically 'er not.

It's a healthy thing to deliberately challenge ourselves and our thoughts. It can often lend us a confidence and certainty about something which many of us might not have inwardly examined before.

Thanks for the Thread, 'Pilgrim777'. I'm enjoying the discussion very much.

Hi Blayne,

Hope you are well. Thank you for your comments... you are very right that we should be able to examine everything, because non-Christians certainly will.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Blessings to you, bro,
Pilgrim