Heh 1::1 says God spoke through the prophets in times past. Today in the New Covenant God is speaking through his Son Jesus. That revelation is contained in the New Testament. So why do we need prophets today?
Posted by Bearmaster.
Oh! Dear Saints,
I am not sure if this question is raised in objection to the prophet's ministry today, or in support of; but I can't help but respond briefly.
The apostle Paul makes abundantly clear that all of the ministry gifts will continue "until we all come to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto the perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Eph. 4:13).
Whether we employ them or not is up to us, unfortunately. The prophetic gift is essential for various things, just as the other ministry calls are; but one of the most outstanding things is that God will often us the prophet to speak a "now word," to the body - whether it has to do with future events, or a present-hour need for the body. The pastor/teacher (whether one or two people) will teach through the scripture, and the prophet will certainly use the scripture too, but more than that, he will also hear from God and share with the body those things God wants to speak to His people in the immediate hour. And of course, whatever he speaks should be confirmed (have a witness spiritually) by others with the ministry gifts before it is actually accepted by the whole body.
When our Lord was hear teaching, He would sometimes say, "He who has ears to hears, listen." When He went away He said the Spirit would both hear from the Father and speak what He says, teaching us and guiding us into all truth (John 16:7-15).
After our Lord ascended to heaven, He spoke back to the apostle John who was suffering on the Isle of Patmos for Christ's namesake. To each of the seven churches that He spoke to through John (who was acting in the prophets gift), our Lord said: "He who has ears to hear, listen to what the SPIRIT IS SAYING to the churches" (Rev. 2-3)
Notwithstanding the validity of the gift, it has been abused, misused and maligned like all other gifts; but that doesn't mean that God does not still give it, or that we should avoid exercising it if we have it.
I am very thankful that He has given me that gift to operate under His direction on many occasions. At the same time, I accept and operate in that gift with great humility and care - knowing that when we claim to actually speak in God's behalf in that way we are taking on a great responsibility that may possibly have great consequences.
I hope this has shed a little light on the subject for you, brother.
The primary thrust of the book of Hebrews is to establish to the Hebrew church, who had all of their lives lived under the old covenant, the superiority of the new covenant. Hence the opening words of the letter. This is not a commentary on the validity or non-validity of the new covenant ministry gift of the prophet.
Paul, in Ephesians 4, points to five ascention gifts that were given, by Christ, to the church upon His return to the Father. (Some see pastor / teacher as one gift and say there are four gifts. Maybe so.) During Paul's ministry we see that prophets were very active in the church. Recall Agabus for one. Judas and Silas were prophets.
All five (or four) of these gifts working in the church are necessary if the body is to come into full maturity. These gifts are given to the body.
The prophet, specifically, can sometimes foretell future events just as Agabus foretold Paul's arrest. Prophets also speak forth the word of the Lord in an authority and timeliness that is, I think, unique to the gift of the prophet. God may also deal with a prophet about things that are out of order in the body.
I understand that there are those who would deny the gift of prophet and of apostle in the body today. I think it is interesting that the gift of pastor is mentioned once in the entirety of the New Testament (shepherd a few times but only by somewhat shaky inference referring to a pastor), yet most every church has a pastor. The prophet is mentioned clearly as a New Testament reality several times in the book of Acts, yet we rarely hear of a man being a prophet.
There are many abuses of spiritual authority by men and women who are in the church world. Prophet so-and-so or Apostle so-and-so for titles sake is prevalent. But then again, pastor or reverend so-and-so is often wearing the title for the sake of notoriety, power, and money as well. But the abuse does not negate the valid and genuine. The proper order for the maturing of the body is to have these gifts actively ministering to the body so that the body can be fully equipped to minister.
But Hebrews 1:1 does say that God spoke to the forefathers through the prophets. This would be under the Old Covenant. Today we have God speaking to us by his Son Jesus. His words are found in the New Testament. Found in the four gospels and the writers such as the Apostles who wrote under the Holy Spirit.
We have the Holy pirit who brings his prophetic scriptures to life in our soul. So I ask with the revelation of the New Testament and the Holy Spirit. That is we have been given the prophetic word. Why do we need prophets?
If anything Jesus warns us in Mat. 24 that false prophets will come and do signs and wonders to deceive the elect if it were possible. So how do we test false prophets? Is it not through the prophetic scripture itself?
Bearmaster.
I am aware he church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. But in light of the New Testament revelation made available. Do those offices still continue today. Eph. 4 says it is a foundation suggesting that we believers are being added as living stones. In other words the foundation was established in the first century when the church was being formed. But now God gas given all believers the Holy Spirit and the New Testament. Also all believers have access to God.
I suppose in some sense that apostle and prophet continue as believers go forth and declare God's truth through the scriptures. But I am coming to the conclusion that first century prophets are not operating in the twenty first century church. Even in the 1040 window where the Spirit moves more freely. The emphasis is more on the prophetic word of scripture. The gift of prophet does nit seem to operate in these churches.
Just my thoughts. Still fleshing this out.
Bearmaster.
I understand your frustration, Bearmaster.
It's no secret who "Proclaimit" is, as it's in his signature. When his message was the Featured Sermon of that month, that message was very good and for one of the few times that I mentioned to Greg, it surely was a good word.
As far as "forum prophets" - as they say in NY - fahgedaboutit. If there comes a genuine prophet - they'll be shut down by the prophet wannabes every time.
I mention brother Proclaimit because if he hadn't put his name in his signature, his words would be shot down eventually as well.
But I find that it's all the more true, when anyone does actually give a future tense word or a word that touches on eschatology.
I 'tried' on Mr. amrkelly's thread to say that the Whole Body of Christ has the advantage of John 16:13 etc - on his thread on the Article section on page 3 but what I wrote was shot down as well.
That thread also says that only men can be blessed with one of the 5 callings of Eph 4. Someone should have told Deborah that.
I understand your frustration Brother. Very much so - but in a Good Church assembly - face to face with a good Pastor - GOD does use prophets in the Body -- it's just on the internet - it can't happen and the ones that I've seen that have their own websites and call themselves "prophets" are nothing more than hirelings or prophet wannabes.
Jesus warned us that this would happen in these last days - but in a good fellowship, with good elders and all - a prophet can help turn the whole spirit of that Church around and a good Pastor will appreciate that help from above, even if comes from a prophetess that knows her Scriptural place as a woman.
The 5 callings of Eph 4 do still exist, Brother Bear --- but we see it more in Biblical assemblies/fellowships of the Saints together - face to face and protected by good men of GOD. Not in the 'free-for-all' atmosphere of internet websites and forums.
Shalom, Brother.
Whenever I see this topic/subject brought up anywhere it makes me grimace. I say this because I those who believe in Prophets yet produce not evidence. With the various churches I have attended the only group that supports and lifts up prophets are the Charismatics because it gives an extra authority to the 'church' yet many of these 'prophets' aren't prophets and they aren't even watchmen.
I have stated on the forum that I don't believe prophets exist today though I believe watchmen exist. By my saying that it seems that maybe I don't 'believe the Word of God'. Well, for me, I am a Thomas in this regard. Point a prophet to me today and I will acknowledge that at least a Prophet exists today. Up until I find just alot of talk except in the Charismatic church and I don't believe them just because of their character.
John
John, you've been where I was. Yes, some no-longer-there websites will do that to you.
Just wanted to say, that there are conservative Presbyterian churches that believe in the calling or the gift of prophecy. The calling and the gift are not the same thing - but it's not just Charismatics that believe they and it exist. But with these conservative Presby churches - there's a bit more discernment and testing, "according to The Word."
Peace, Brother.
In the book of Ephesians 4:11 the KJV reads....
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"
The saints are not perfect and the ministry still needs work so prophets are still needed...
There is a gift of prophecy and then there is the Prophet. It is the Prophet that I am in dismay over.
I would go with Deadn that the gifting of prophet continues today. Perhaps that gifting even continues at the corpirate level as all have access to the New Testament and all can proclaim the word of God as this is what the prophet does. I might add that the giftings if the Holy Spirit are gender neutral. The promise of Joel 2 is that your sons and daughters will prophesy. This suggest more of a corporate approach to the prophetic gift.
But to suggest that certain people are designated prophet or even apostle is to breed a spiritual elitism. The same could be said for pastor, teacher, or perhaps even evangelist. It seems these gifts have more of a corpirate role.
I find myself looking at a modified cessionist position on some of these gifts. Or the people who claim to be apostles and prophets. The New Testament canon and the Holy Spirit gives us all access to God. So in some sense all of us are prophets in the corpirate sense.
Again I am not aware these gifts of apostle and prophet operating in the 1040 church.
Just my thoughts.
Bearmaster.
Bear, I personally don't see any problem with your stance. It doesn't make any difference whether anyone believes in these 5 callings or not and anyone that would force this on you has some pride issues to deal with.
Whatever GOD calls someone to do or say - just do it or say it. No one needs a 'title' to work for The LORD and do what He leads us to do. If it's from Him, just deliver it and go on your way. I've seen where some want to be acknowledged for their words and that's not the right attitude. If the words came from Him - they're not 'your' words anyway - so why would you want to be 'acknowledged'? If The LORD heals someone through you - it's still HIS doing.
If you give a word and it's rejected - just do the same as if it weren't rejected .... just move on to whatever else He's leading you to do. None of us should be seeking recognition. And all of us should be pointing solely to Him and to His Word, the scriptures and not seeking attention to ourselves in any way. So, there goes all need for titles and Eph 4:12-32 should be our heart's motive for all that we do together as His Body.
GOD Bless Bearmaster.
But Hebrews 1:1 does say that God spoke to the forefathers through the prophets. This would be under the Old Covenant. Today we have God speaking to us by his Son Jesus. His words are found in the New Testament. Found in the four gospels and the writers such as the Apostles who wrote under the Holy Spirit.We have the Holy pirit who brings his prophetic scriptures to life in our soul. So I ask with the revelation of the New Testament and the Holy Spirit. That is we have been given the prophetic word. Why do we need prophets?
If anything Jesus warns us in Mat. 24 that false prophets will come and do signs and wonders to deceive the elect if it were possible. So how do we test false prophets? Is it not through the prophetic scripture itself?
Jesus was the pivot point between the old and new covenants. Now Jesus has ascended to the Father and all believers can hear the Holy Spirit of God speaking to them. But the context of this statement is not a statement on the passing away of prophets. It simply says that the way that God spoke to his people up to the time of Christ was through prophets, but now God's son, in the flesh, has come and spoken. The letter goes on to establish Christ as the priest of a better covenant.
God has designed this thing so that we are never independent, but are always interdependent. I cannot do this thing alone. I am part of the body of Christ. I am not a body unto myself. So I do not have the whole picture.
A case in point is the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit given in 1 Cor.. One may be given a word of wisdom that God ordains to be spoken to me. I might ask the question, "Why do I need that ministry? Cannot I have the Holy Spirit speak to me directly? Am I not spiritual?" But I realize that I am not a man unto myself, spiritual though I may be. I am part of the body and absolutely need the ministry of the other parts of the body.
As to the foundation of the apostles and prophets, that must also be taken in context. I believe the context points to the fact that the church was foretold by the prophets and was established through the original apostles. That is, I believe, the foundation that is spoken of. Again, the fact that I used concrete in the foundation of my house does not mean that I cease to use concrete for the remainder of the construction.
What do you mean by a "modified cessationalist view"?
What I see in the New Testament is a passing away of men who specifically were designated Apostles and Prophets. One would be hard pressed to say that specifically that apostles such as Paul or prophets such as Agabuses are operating in the church today. I believe God raised up such to be the foundation of the church.
What I do see is that prophetic giftings are operating but more applicable in the corporate body of the saints. I believe JiG best summed it in her post. Acts 2 had the Holy Spirit falling on everybody in that upper room. They went out, men and women, declaring the wonders of God. Prophesying if you will. Were they prophets? For that hour they were. Did they continue to be prophets afterward. Probably not.
Phillip had 4 unmarried daughters who prophesied. Did they hold the office of prophet. I don't think so.
What I am trying to flesh out is the office or calling of prophet and gifting of prophet. Do we have men who are called to be Apostles and Prophets as Paul and Agabus today. No I don't think so. I do not belueve Apostles and Prophets operate as Paul and Agabus did. Not today. But I do believe the corporate gifting of prophet operates in the body today.
Just my thoughts.
Bearmaster.
.
I see what you mean Bearmaster. Yours is not at all an uncommon view. I would propose a question or two, not necessarily because I am seeking an answer, but more as a question that I would encourage you to ponder about what you have said.
First, what scriptural justification do I have for my point of view? Is my position clear from scripture or is it based more on my own observations?
Second, Does scripture indicate that the gift of apostle and prophet have been set aside and at what point in time does scripture teach that these gifts were set aside? It does seem to me that Eph. 4 would demand that if the apostle and prophet are set aside, then the pastor, teacher, and evangelist must also be set aside as they all five are given until a certain event takes place. If this is the case then it seems to me we must assume that the church is already in the unity of the faith and has grown in stature to full maturity.
Third, if scripture does not indicate that these gifts have passed away, must we not assume they are valid and operable even if we do not see them in action or if we see a perversion of these gifts being the most predominant manifestation? After all, false prophets will arise in the last days.
You know where I stand on the issue. My goal is not to be argumentative. I simply want to throw those questions out for you to consider as you think about this issue.
As to the gift and the office, I am not totally sure I have full understanding. I do know that the gift is God gracing the life of an individual with the function of a prophet in the body of Christ. This function is a full time job if you will. A prophet cannot cease to be a prophet, although that person could turn away from God and no longer function, having lost fellowship with God. The gift of prophecy is a moving of the Holy Spirit upon a believer to deliver a specific word of prophecy at a specific time and is not resident with the individual. In other words, the person may conceivably be given a word of prophecy once in their life and never again. But the prophet will find this a regular flow in their lives and will learn to operate in this type of gifting on an ongoing basis.
I hope that this gives you something to consider. May God richly bless you brother Bearmaster.
Wayne wrote: " Holy Spirit upon a believer to deliver a specific word of prophecy at a specific time and is not resident with the individual."" "" But the prophet will find this a regular flow in their lives and will learn to operate in this type of gifting on an ongoing basis."""
It is pretty simple, if prophecy is given and does not come true, we all know what God does with false prophets. So the gift of prophecy given by the Holy Spirit, who is not a false prophet, will come true, for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ, all else is of false prophets.
A "regular flowing prophet", must be very careful and can be influenced by spiritual forces and powers in high places. Check out what the prophets of God speak to. Only what God does or is intending to do.
A foretelling prophet is no longer needed. "prophet"); by analogy, an inspired speaker; by extension, a poet:--prophet. We all know that the Word of God is complete and cannot be added to, but an inspired speaker prophet can and does give prophecy correct understanding of the scriptures by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Prophets be aware, lest you come under condemnation from God. If it does not come true, you are no prophet. I will not chance it unless completely proofed by the Holy Spirit of what I am speaking to, especially on an ongoing bases. Is it me or God?
In Christ: Phillip
Here's an accurate view of New Testament prophecy (at least one aspect of it):
http://preachingjesus.wordpress.com/2011/01/21/nt-prophecy-differes-from-ot-prophecy-john-piper/
The article is written by John Piper.
Among corinthian believers of apostolic age there were local prophets, not just gifts of prophecy. Corinthians 14:29, "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said."
There is absolutly no evidence anywhere in the NT that clearly supports the cessetional theology of supernatural gifts or apostolic & prophetic ministry.
Didache one of the easlist christian manuscripts beside the NT writtings, states it clearly that there were prophets in the local churches.
The book Shepherd of Hermas who was written about 2nd century from a christian named Hermas; who was the brother of the Bishop of Rome. This is an axemple of prophetic ministry.
Throughout history of the church of God there have been men of God with an authentic prophetic ministry. Just because today there is so much spurious and counterfeit gifts among the charismatic movements does not mean the authentic does not exist.
I believe that during the great persecution of the last days, God will pour out the Spirit of prophecy on many believers, who will be overcomers.
We need the prophetic ministry today because we need the testimony of Jesus.
"That which is perfect" and "that which is in part" are both singular. There is a one to one correspondence between them. When one perfect thing comes then one thing in part is done away.
And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
Zechariah 13:3-4
From the above passage, we see that the Bible anticipated a time in which there would be no true prophets, and anyone who claimed to be a prophet would be looked upon as a false prophet.
False Prophets
There are many warnings in the Bible about false prophets.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 7:15
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:11
For false Christ's and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:22
Since there are no true prophets today, anyone who claims to be a prophet is a false prophet.
Sources of False Prophecy
If those who claim to prophesy today are not true prophets and what they speak is not from God, then what is the source of their message? In the Bible, we find two sources for the messages of false prophets.
1) Evil Spirits
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2 Chronicles 18:21
The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
Jeremiah 2:8
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Revelation 16:13-14
Evil spirits try to deceive people into thinking that they are receiving a message from God, when in fact the evil spirits themselves are the source of the message.
2) A Person’s own heart
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:16
How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
Jeremiah 23:26
Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Jeremiah 14:14
Another source of false prophecy is a person’s own heart. I think that there are two primary ways in which this happens.
1) Intentionally. Sometimes people just plain make it up as they go along. Maybe they are trying to impress others with how spiritual they are. There is a real temptation to do this in charismatic circles, because those who "prophesy" are often held in the highest esteem.
2) Unintentionally. Another way that this is done is that a person misinterprets their own thoughts (the voice of their own spirit) for the voice of God.
Summary
1) A prophet was someone who spoke for God. Their words were not their own, but the very words of God.
2) A prophet in the Old Testament was the same as a prophet in the New Testament. They both spoke for God and predicted the future.
3) A prophet is one who prophesies, and one who prophesies is a prophet. Those who went around prophesying all the time were prophets.
4) The Bible gives us two tests to detect false prophets. First, a prophet must be 100% accurate. They must never miss. Those who "make mistakes" are false prophets. Secondly, a prophet’s message must be biblical. It must lead us into truth and following the God of the Bible - not into following a false God or into ERROR. Those who give a prophecy containing false doctrine are false prophets.
5) God is angry with those who claim to be speaking for Him that he did not send. Anyone who "presumptuously" claims to speak for God will be dealt with most severely by Him if they do not repent.
6) Prophecy was in part. That is - it was only a partial revelation of God’s truth. When God’s complete revelation in scripture came, there was no more need for that which was in part, and prophecy passed away.
7) The Bible contains many warnings to beware of false prophets. The Bible anticipated a time in which there would no longer be any prophets.
8) There are two sources of false prophecy: A) Evil spirits - who try to deceive people with supposed messages from God; and B) A person’s own heart - either by making up the message or by mistaking their own thoughts (the voice of their own spirit) for the voice of God.
What will you believe? Will you believe what the Bible says about prophets and prophecy? By James Frye.
IN Christ by whom God speaks to His rebirthed sons': Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, (((((Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,))))) whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Who is now been made our "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, faith, life and redemption:" Phillip
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What religions depend on prophets? Islam and Mormon
Brigham Young and Mohammad who both had many wifes youngest being 6 and 12. that should be enough
Phillip
Perhaps there may be some confusion in regard to the gift of prophecy and the office of the prophet. Many people desire the office of a prophet and sometimes immaturely confuse their having been granted an occasional gift of a "word of knowledge" as an indication that they stand in the office of a prophet. While Paul said to desire the greatest of the gifts, he certainly did not say to lust after them, or to seek them in the carnal manner that some have done. Someone who interprets tongues, or prophecies directly without the previous forthcoming of tongues does not indicate one stands in the "office" of a prophet. To me there seems to have been much confusion in regard to this and I have personally seen a very good friend make some serious errors after he was gifted with the "word of knowledge" several times, immediatelt thereafter several carnal believers applauded him and convinced him he was a prophet. And, the greatest warning we may be able to use to verify these things a so-called prophet may speak is that "we shall know them by their fruit." Do these action bear Godly fruit? I for one would love to see more Godly fruit borne in my life and in the lives of the people I care about --- Which in all reality should be and is my loved ones and those who might offend myself and us all -- Enemies, etc... and even the false prophets. We might remember Harold Camping's false prophecies and yet it is my understanding that the man may have come to true repentance and turned from his error -- We can pray that God can bring Godly fruit to bear even in what was Harold's very misleading and damaging ministry -- True repentance is the beginnings of blessing... Provided it is true repentance. Perhaps the root sin in all of this is pride -- A prophet full of pride and self aggrandizement -- How our savior surely hates such a thing. Yet there is one further thought I would wish to query the forum with: The scripture that declares that the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet -- I do not have a good understanding of that. Might anyone be able to help me understand it better? These are only thoughts of mine and I am not sure if I am thinking as God would have me think in regard to this so... Please what are my fellow believers opinions?
This question keeps coming to mind. It seems that many will seek out their favorite prophet to get the latest prophesy. Jesus warned that false prophets would arise in the end times to decieve many. Even by signs and wonders.
Yet to suggest that one turn to the prophetic writnings themselves. That is the scriptures. Is met with disdain. Even by some in this forum. We turn readily to David Wilkerson or Art Katz for their prophetic insights. Yet we shelve Keith. Daniels with his practical emphasis on the scriptures. It is almost like we yawn. So what else is new.
It is noteworthy that the persecuted cry for the written word and not the latest prophetic word from the so called prophet.
Just my thoughts.
Bearmaster.
"It is noteworthy that the persecuted cry for the written word and not the latest prophetic word from the so called prophet."
It has been my [ very limited ] experience that the persecuted church cries for Jesus Himself and His Presence to comfort more than even the Word manifest in the Bible; but I agree with your point.
I will quote the straightforward wisdom of KingJimmy below: "We need the prophetic ministry today because we need the testimony of Jesus."..amen to that KJ
There is a false idea of "prophets" being men of authority, and there-by men of stature. WRONG.
Primarily, a prophet is one, yes, given to carry authority, but that is not how [ or if ] you might recognize him. You will recognize a prophet by his Love.
I would say to those who claim to be; How many souls have you led to the Lord? How many souls have you led to the Lord, and witnessed them being baptised in the Holy Spirit through the laying on of your own hands? Any that had never heard of His Name; before you arrived?
How many demons have you cast out, and seen the afflicted , afore screaming with several voices, delivered, and then filled with Graceful love, and sweetly singing in other tongues in Praise to Jesus Himself?
Has this man healed the sick? with the authority that has been given to him? Does he love the children as much as the great? Does he likewise care for the least in the church, and weep over the lowly, that they might find justice? and prosperity in the Spirit, and even the natural?
As the Apostle; so the prophet. Remember that Paul, and Barnabus, were first Prophets. They were then elevated to the office of a SENT ONE, an Ambassador of Christ.
These two offices are the highest, and the lowest at the same time, because they are under all else in LOVE!..not necessarily authority, as their authority is only Derived by the actual LIVING testimony of Jesus Himself. [ as KingJimmy said.] They gain that authority as they are Possessed by that Authority, and they are called in that realm.
It is a specific, and different calling, and the separating apart into it, is simply the degree that this one will be possessed by Jesus Himself. So, then the question will be, rather than the man, "DO WE WANT JESUS!"
I would have given a lot to have been there when the prophet Paul, now A SENT ONE, rolled into town. Unassuming, haggard and all scarred up, bad eyesight and pot-bellied, and sat down in our little meeting, and upon opening his mouth, witness Shekinah Glory manifest, and see Jesus pour through him in rivers of living waters.
This is the prophetic ministry, and it is a specific calling, and "office" if you will. You will never recognize it through type, or even who ever or what ever one may proclaim, or say about himself. You will only recognize that by the fruit, and that is the actual manifestation of Jesus Himself meeting YOU, through this chosen vessel.
"I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
That is the alive kind of testimony...Jesus comes.
Someone who interprets tongues or prophecies directly without the previous forthcoming of tongues does not indicate one stands in the "office" of a prophet. To me there seems to have been much confusion in regard to this and I have personally seen a very good friend make some serious errors after he was gifted with the "word of knowledge" several times, immediately thereafter several carnal believers applauded him and convinced him he was a prophet. And, the greatest warning we may be able to use to verify these things a so-called prophet may speak is that "we shall know them by their fruit." Do their actions bear Godly fruit? Beige.
Beige these words of yours are wisdom. You have drawn a distinction between a man and the gifts of the Holy Spirit very clearly in the example of your friend. One would have to conclude that your insight rests on the experience of seeing the reality of your friends conduct and fruit and his use of a gift which he was able to exercise by faith. Also the “carnal” believers encouraging him to believe he was a prophet would no doubt have caused him to stumble further. In essence their foolishness made your friend vulnerable to himself and would have exposed him to others in regards to his walk.
I would wish to query the forum with: The scripture that declares that the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet -- I do not have a good understanding of that. Might anyone be able to help me understand it better?
I believe it means that a New Testament prophet should not be driven, but must learn to walk. It is one thing to have conviction and thereby function obediently. It is another to be driven. Conviction for the New Testament prophet does not come from without, but from within. It is the evidence of a new life in Christ not the evidence of the constraining hand of God on your being. No doubt a prophet should be restrained, but it must come from the man himself as living faith, from his own understanding out of his spirit. I am sure that God does and can always restrain anyone if He is pleased to do so. But faithfulness and obedience for the prophet is measured by self-control and amounts to the same walk as all believers are commanded too. It is a difference of calling or anointing, but in the end it will be judged by the same criteria as are all believers judged. A prophet should not excuse his failings by claiming that God has made him act or else speak in a certain way; because the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet.
"That which is perfect" and "that which is in part" are both singular. There is a one to one correspondence between them. When one perfect thing comes then one thing in part is done away.6) Prophecy was in part. That is - it was only a partial revelation of God’s truth. When God’s complete revelation in scripture came, there was no more need for that which was in part, and prophecy passed away.
I realize that this is the hinge on which hangs the cessationalist perspective. The specifics about what has ceased very, but regardless of how wide the door swings, this is the hinge.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
The context of 1 Cor. 13 is the proper use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They must be motivated by God's agape love. That, after all, was the one of the primary problems with the Corinthian churches abuse of the gifts. They were motivated by their own purposes, pleasure if you will, and not by God's purposes, the outflow of His heart in love toward another. As a result one would speak in tongues in the assembly and then another with no thought to the fact that this was not ministering to their brother or sister. It was selfishly motivated.
With that context Paul says that God's agape love never fails. The context is that all of these things that the Corinthian church was so eager for, the gifts of the Spirit, are things that can fail. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are only temporary. Paul uses three of the gifts of the Spirit as examples.
1. Prophecies fail
2. Tongues cease
3. Knowledge vanishes away
He simply says that the love of God is the thing that is enduring. It is the foundation that will not fail and will not end. It is the motivation upon which all of the gifts of the Spirit must operate.
Now he says that we know and prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away with. Then he modifies or restates what he is saying and says that we now see through a glass darkly, but then face to face, and at the same time know even as I am known. So the question is, when is then. For it is this "when" that is the time of the coming of that which is perfect.
So when will I see face to face? When will I have perfect knowledge so that I know even as I am known? And in keeping verse 10 perfectly in context, when will that which is perfect come? There is only one event which fulfills this. It is the second coming of Christ when I am given a glorified body, when I know as I am known, and when I see Him face to face.
As far as I can see there is no scriptural precedent for saying that that which is perfect is the finished canon of scripture. Yes, the Bible is perfect, but to claim that this is the subject of 1 Cor. 13 is to stretch the context of the scripture in my opinion.
Bearmaster: I get very concerned over the state of the body when people are flocking after the latest and greatest "prophet" so that they can receive their "word". It shows that these people have no root in themselves and want to "bootleg" the gospel so to speak. This is why we need all five gifts flowing in the body to bring the body out of childishness and into the maturity of spiritual manhood
I also thought of this: Jesus speaks of prophets to come.
“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.
He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward!"
So we see Jesus Himself address the question, don't we? I guess to be fair, though, perhaps it is in the matter of RECEIVING one, isn't it?
We still, however, have the Moses idea of the prophet for the New Testament fellowship. This is wrong, in that the prophet is NOT the dictator. He does not come to dominate, or to take over, or even address any from the pulpit; he comes as a brother, a part of the body, simply to edify, and that is always to the least of the brothers or sisters there.
Also, he is not a stranger; "Know those who labor among you!"...and is never a controller...ever. This is what got Diotrephes in trouble. [ 3John ]
I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, does not receive us.
Therefore, if I come, I will call to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids those who wish to, putting them out of the church.
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God."
So here we see a confrontation from the good, to the false, and very informing too. The false wants power over you, and to control you, to USE you, by loving his own power; THE PREEMINENCE...the big shot.
This was the also the sin of the Pharisee, who had to murder Jesus for this exact cause. Neither Prophets or Apostles will ever want power over you; ever. Paul trumpeted this message over and over refusing support, and money, and even supporting other workers through his own hard labor.
[ The scourge of the church, the professional Priest-Class who deem their "ministry" above, and make their living off of the backs of the laboring church.]
The false idea that the Apostle or the Prophet should be on top, is refuted by the Lord Himself.
"Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest.
And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’
But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. [ as a slave]
Because of our adaption of the PASTOR class, as the PRIEST class; and the pulpit driven MINISTRY class in our meetings, we will never receive the prophet, or apostle. By nature of control, they will always be rejected, for it is impossible to maintain both; the prophetic ministry will root out all that divides the body away from Christ, and the Pastor mentality must reject it , or step down.
Saying that, we will perish , if it were possible, without Godly Pastors to feed, protect, and manifest the Lordship of Jesus IN our churches. The difference being, that these chosen men always, always operate in plurality, and are never paid!; they support themselves and others, and manifest the Lordship of Jesus as their means of authority, and are brothers first; BEFORE they are Pastors.
It is in this context that the prophet arises; walking among the church, tested by the manifestation of fruit! in love, and patience and grace to the church, even to the least and little. Every word that he speaks, is also judged, and will primarily be a foot-washer, not a powerful lord, [as most Preachers and Pastors tend to want to be.]
If a man is called to be a New Testament prophet anyway, you must be inclined to first receive him as a brother, and then test the spirit of the man, usually through down to Earth fellowship, and probably over coffee. All wise elderS will do so..but the church [ the alive, real one] must begin to receive this ministry, for wholeness sake. The prophets can be the EYES and the EARS of the local body, and by this discernment and hearing direction, be a vast benefit to the church.
The flip side is that if they are false, which I concur, MOST are Bearmaster, can inflict massive wounds to the holy body.
Paul writes below.
"For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. [ There is the power grab..]
Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears."
The church is going through a great second Reformation, that will align her back, to where the body becomes a real functioning, coordinated vessel, with her fingers and eyes, and thoughts and feet moving together, as one....in Love....and as this transformation evolves in maturity, we will see more and more reality manifest and more of the supernatural of the Spiritual giftings such as the prophet may bring.
It is all, completely all, for the benefit of others; a gift from SOMEONE ELSE...to someone else..the church.
I will submit my calling in this arena.
http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2012/05/gift-from-someone-else-to-someone-elsea.html#comment-form
I would like to thank those who have come to this thread with a teachable spirit. I know I want to be teachable in this area of the prohet as we all seen for the understanding of the Spirit. I do believe prophetic giftings continue in this day. I just do not know how they are expressed. Though I do believe ut iss in a corpirate setting. Someone did post a link to a John Piper article that may provide some insight. May God continue to give us wisdom as we seek for understanding in a spirit of humility.
In Christ,
Bearmaster.
Brother Bearmaster - it's true that this generation has sought after "a word" from Any source that's out there, but I don't believe that those that would read or listen to "Art Katz, David Wilkerson" and men like them are the type that fall under the category that you've written about here -
Even by some in this forum. We turn readily to David Wilkerson or Art Katz for their prophetic insights. Yet we shelve Keith. Daniels with his practical emphasis on the scriptures. It is almost like we yawn. So what else is new.
David Wilkerson and Art also kept a "practical emphasis on the Scriptures" ... and you know that I post Keith Daniel sermons as well and I believe he speaks prophetically as well ... but each man is used in a different way, when it's a prophetic ministry. No two need to be the same nor have the same identical ministry.
{eta} But you nailed the "true prophetic qualifier" with your words - "a practical EMPHASIS on the Scriptures". Yes, that is the key because we see that in John 16:13, 14. A TRUE prophet, teacher, pastor, evangelist, or apostle will keep The WORD of GOD [made flesh and written] as the "EMPHASIS" and focal point at All times. We won't see 'them' but we'll be being shown HIM.
When I am being pointed TO HIM - I know I'm listening to someone that is being USED by GOD and His "Spirit of TRUTH".
I've never followed Art or David W for "a prophetic word". I've never followed Any man/woman for any "prophet word" and have posted much on that topic of following or seeking "prophets". But as another poster said, some of these men are Teacher/Prophets. Some are used in more than just one of those 5 ministerial callings.
We were taught that GOD would prefer to speak to His Sheep first and the prophets would only be Confirming what GOD had already spoken to your heart.
Paul 'knew' that he would be bound in Rome when Agabus demonstrated what would happen to him.
David knew he sinned greatly when Nathan came to him. He just needed a push to confess.
I've only met one old man close to 30 yrs ago, that told me things to come to this world that were dead-on target and gave Scripture to back it all up. He was a teacher and GOD had pulled back the veil for him to see what the Scriptures were saying and gave that witness in the spirit that nothing of what Scriptures he was shown, contradicted anything nor each other and it all came out in a prophetic way though he was mainly a teacher.
Again, I Do believe in the 5 ministerial callings to the Church that we read in Eph 4 --- but we all also know the abuse of all 5 of those and all the wannabes out there, that have given those callings a bad name .... Especially now since the internet ... no need to prove oneself to "get a ministry" ... just start a website and call yourself a prophet or teacher or anything under the sun. [Jesus said that these would increase in the last days,,, didn't He.]
"Apostle" in the Greek is only "one sent" as in - MISSIONARIES!
I know a ton of those and they're the ones that need our prayers the most. :) ... [my personal burden is to fast and pray for them] - but, I think all of us need to get our eyes off of SELF and get to learning HIS VOICE for ourselves and HIS WORD for ourselves and then ALL of the gifts can flow without any of us being DECEIVED by counterfeits or becoming a 'self-focused' counterfeit ourselves.
We all need to be sure, that we're sure, that we're sure that we personally KNOW HIS VOICE before we find ourselves alone in a world of chaos - etc of whatever is coming as Jesus Said - DECEPTION will be very subtle and rampant.
GRACE to you, Brother. Pray for All the Saints Everywhere. Thanks!
Wayne wrote: '""So when will I see face to face? When will I have perfect knowledge so that I know even as I am known? And in keeping verse 10 perfectly in context, when will that which is perfect come? There is only one event which fulfills this. It is the second coming of Christ when I am given a glorified body, when I know as I am known, and when I see Him face to face."""
"That which is perfect is come, that which is in part is done away".
Is the Spirit of Christ Perfect? My old man spirit was the spirit of my father the devil, which could only be in part pertaining to the things of God. When the Spirit of Christ came into me the spirit of my old father was done away and now my Spirit which is Christ has made me perfect in Spirit.
The Spirit is come and His Spirit that is in me is perfect.
By which without I am none of His.
With the Mind of Christ my soul is becoming perfect, not as yet I have attained it, but look to the Mind of Christ that is in me toward the upward calling of God.
In the resurrection this body will become perfect, meantime it has been quickened to contain that which is perfect.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Without this, no word of prophecy is valid.
2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
I am not a cessationalist but this is the only prophecy I have heard that is valid, the expounding of the Word of God in Spirit and truth through the only True Prophet, Jesus Christ and His prayed for and sent by the Father, The Holy Spirit. What was finished at the Cross? The full completed prophecy of God, The fulfillment of the Word of God. Is any futher prophecy of the completed work of Christ necessary?
Colossians 1:24-25 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
If anything was left behind that needed to be filled up, it was given to Paul, this is the fulfillment of the Word of God; "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
In Christ: Phillip
"What was finished at the Cross? The full completed prophecy of God, The fulfillment of the Word of God. Is any further prophecy of the completed work of Christ necessary?"..Phillip
In spirit I agree with you Phillip, but I wanted to remind you that about 60 years AFTER the Cross and Resurrection, Jesus saw the need for further prophecy, as He Revealed Himself to John, and proclaimed his Testimony as the spirit of prophecy; THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST: the authentic title of this book. It is the greatest singular prophecy in the Bible; I think.
It seems that the Lord Himself saw a "need" within weak man, to speak to them, and comfort them [ the church ] in their struggles and battles; Prophecy,
"Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men."
It is no different today, and there are some churches, somewhere on Earth, who actually live and move in their meetings with true prophesy....but....can anyone tell me where they are? They have left America: Vamooshed! I understand why so many have become disillusioned with the prophetic; James Goll and Kim Clement....uhhhh, I'd rather be beat.
Philllip: What I see in this passage are two distinct events that surround the "coming of that which is perfect" that can be used to identify the event Paul is speaking of. These are seeing face to face and knowing even as we are known. In context perfect knowledge or knowledge that is no longer in part and a face to face encounter with the Lord. While I agree with you 100% that the Spirit of God is perfect, the Word of God is perfect, God is perfect, etc., the event of which Paul speaks can only be the event in which we are changed from mortal to immortal and finally see God face to face and know all things. It seems to me, from context, that this can only be the second coming of the Lord and specifically our being changed in the twinkling of an eye.
It seems a bit odd to me that we should desire to set apostles and prophets aside as not being valid gifts to the body of Christ today when Paul says that they are given along with pastors, teachers, and evangelists until the body of Christ comes into the stature of full maturity. It also seems a bit odd to me we would not recognize the New Testament role of the prophet given that of the five gifts, we have zero mention of the role of the NT pastor outside of Eph. 4, but we have several mentions of the prophet in the early church, i.e. Agabus and "certain prophets and teachers" at the ordination of Paul.
Granted, it seems our greatest quandary is to have a good understanding of just what the role of the prophet in the NT looks like. I will readily admit that my understanding of this is scant indeed. I am very hazy in this respect, and need to search the scriptures much more.
I also recognize that the gift of the prophet and apostle has been, frankly in my opinion, twisted and abused by such movements as the new apostolic reformation, the apostolic / prophetic movement, etc.. Not that all who are part of this movement are somehow not born again, but I see some serious error and cause for concern in the handling of the word of God by some of these groups and I see definite misdirection of focus leading to a clamoring after the "title and prestige" of apostle and prophet. Yet this cannot be the justification for setting the true gift aside. To do so is to eliminate 2/5 of God's ordained plan for maturing the body of Christ.
Hi Tom,
I don't see John as the Prophet of the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, I see Jesus and His Angle as the Prophets of Revelation, John the writer of these Words spoken in the Book.
Paul only speaking the revelation of Jesus Christ Himself given to Paul to give to us to fulfill the Word of God.
In this frame of refference I see Paul and John as prophets of God.
Revelation 22:16-19 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
High Wayne,
Do you have the Spirit of Jesus in you, is He come? Is this the Spirit of Jesus Christ Perfect? Jesus knows me completely now and I am learning to know Him and will know Him as I am known, completely, throughout all eternity. My knowing will never exhaust the God Christ who is in me, I will be learning Him forever and yet not completely.
I can never be a god, I can only be as God by what He reveals to me as Himself of which I am known.
1 Corinthians 13:10-13 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
I am perfect in spirit, I am becoming perfect in soul/mind and will be perfect in body as far as perfection is given to me in Christ Jesus by the power of God.
Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.
I will always be a servant of God and His Christ, and His nail scared hands and side will forever be before me and yet God has said I am a son of God in Christ Jesus. Changed from faith to faith and precept upon precept being known as I am knowing through the Mind of Christ by His Spirit that lives in me. I pray that we all are presented perfect before the Father in Christ. This is His working in me that worketh mightily with perfect Prophecy.
Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to His working, which worketh in me mightily.
What Love, What Grace, What All and in All God has given us in Christ.
These are my subjective thoughts and understanding as far as I have been given by The Holy Spirit in which I have my own shortcomings in understanding, which I believe and trust that the objective understanding will come from God to correct the error of my ways.
In Christ: Phillip
Thank you so very much for taking the time to expound on this. Certainly your words help me understand this a lot. I would suppose that Baalam may be a good example of a prophet who did not align his spirit with God's Holy Spirit in complete obedience but rather used the revelations and knowledge he had received from God and used them for selfish gain: Filthy lucre. Yet it causes me to wonder and bless the Lord even more in that He is so perfect and so good and so kind and so gentlemanly that he does not violate anyone's free will -- Yet that is not to say that He will not chastise us or judge any evil we may have hidden in our hearts. Baalam's own donkey delivered Baalam from pending judgement. Even a person with great potential whom God has rolled open His heavenly gifts to, and whom has openly chosen to receive those glorious blessings can then (after having tasted the might and glory of the kingdom of God)descend into carnality and go the way of Baalam -- Our father will allow it even at the costs of his own name being damaged! Oh' the majesty and greatest of the Lord our God and our King -- Bless his name forever. Imagine the magnificent grace of God in that "the gifts and callings of God are without repentance." How might I ever be so insolent as to be lifted with pride for God's blessings as though generated from SELF after God had blessed me with anything? I pray God give me the strength and help to banish such selfishness forever from my heart. Was this not Lucifer's original sin and the one thing that we have winked at and allowed within the midst of fellowship for years, if not centuries -- Prideful control, manipulation, domination, deception, nurturing self serving relationships, all tactics of the enemy of our soul and marks of a false prophet -- Let us flee from them and open our hearts to bear the fruit of His Holy Spirit! Thank you again sir and excuse me for rambling!
I have searched the scriptures and come to a conclusion which I am about to describe. If I am wrong I am in hopes that someone here will assist me in understanding where my conclusions are in error in this matter of the prophetic ministry. I wish to learn about this area of ministry and hope that we in this forum might be able to come to an understanding of this in a manner that God will truly be glorified in.
My primary conclusion is based on my present belief that nowhere in scripture is it recorded that any of the prophets proclaimed themselves to be prophets at any time. Their ministries alone proved the calling God had placed upon their lives. Their ministries alone proved their office. In fact many of them had for a time ran from their calling or begged God to remove it from them. None of them proclaimed from their podiums to be prophets of our Most High God. None appeared to desire self aggrandizement and all pointed any who were ministered to complete and true repentance from sins committed against the Lord our God. I find that most often the fruit of their ministry was restored fellowship between men and God. Perhaps the personage of the prophet themselves should be, and perhaps God himself intends them to be, quiet and hidden so to speak. Yet God's word is to be proclaimed LOUD and clear! If the man or woman themselves is the focus of the message there can be no true glorification and praise delivered to our King. Perhaps we do not in essence need the person of the prophet but we do need the message of the true prophet of God. And, perhaps they are here among us now just as the seven thousand prophets were hidden from the apparent knowledge of Elijah, and yet reserved unto God himself.
Certainly we need to acknowledge that the ministry of the prophet is not over and has not passed away. One has only to look at the coming two witnesses in the book of revelations to see that the ministry of these two prophets certainly will be here soon. I am certain they will be known as men and as prophets. They will edify and guide all believers in the lordship of Jesus Christ. However, it is the present days of corruption that we are living in that has shrouded the prophetic ministry in "mystery" because the enemy of our souls has struck this area throughout the body of Christ with a staggering blow.
I believe that blow has been by instilling pride in two areas:
1. That of the false prophet's pride in desiring and accepting praise for an office he claims in falsehood which thereby transfers praise away from our Lord Jesus Christ and deceitfully directs it to the one who is his fellow deceiver: Satan, Lucifer, that fallen serpent.
2. The pride of the believer who rejects the prophetic ministry because he has isolated his or her self within a closed frame of mind as a reaction to the damaging ministry of the several and many false prophets who have been extant over the last several years and centuries.
So what say we of restoration? I, for one, am going to be prayerfully pondering this question and laying it before my King.
I believe that blow has been by instilling pride in two areas:
1. That of the false prophet's pride in desiring and accepting praise for an office he claims in falsehood which thereby transfers praise away from our Lord Jesus Christ and deceitfully directs it to the one who is his fellow deceiver: Satan, Lucifer, that fallen serpent.2. The pride of the believer who rejects the prophetic ministry because he has isolated his or her self within a closed frame of mind as a reaction to the damaging ministry of the several and many false prophets who have been extant over the last several years and centuries.
So what say we of restoration? I, for one, am going to be prayerfully pondering this question and laying it before my King. Beige.
Beige you appear to have expressed a type of conclusion in these two closing statements that you have made. The first one is very sobering because it really does nail something on the head. Not simply that desiring praise and recognition oneself is the same in meaning as directing praise from the Lord, but that those who do this and have a prophetic calling will be at that point working hand In hand with Satan himself. When we fail to recognise that we have begun to be driven by pride, howsoever it arises, we are right in the power of one’s own soul. There is another thread which has to do with this issue and references Watchman Nee’s little book, the Latent Power of the Soul. The thread is called, “A warning by Watchman Nee.” It is an amazing book and illuminates and explains this difficult issue very well indeed.
Your second point touches on pride as well, but a different outworking. If you don’t mind me saying so, the greatest likelihood that a person is going to reject the prophetic ministry is where someone thinks they themselves are pre-eminently prophetic. No doubt if someone is filled with pride they may well reject the prophetic ministry because it will be the one ministry which will finger their pride. However such pride will also manifestly express an unwillingness to be taught by God’s workmen, be they pastors and teachers, or any other. It seems to me that the mainstay of reasoning which has resulted in a rejection of the prophetic has to do with the abuse of that calling by those who believe they have such a calling and have either been of the spirit of the one who believes he is preeminent or else of the spirit of gathering together of prophets in order to share out the praise and adoration of men amongst themselves.
These gatherings include both men who have been called and anointed, but have fallen into pride, as well as men who have no such calling at all, but come under the class of physical prophets. The physical prophet is by far the most dangerous man in the entire world, because he is naturally able to see things and to seduce others by forth telling coming events etc. If such a man simply kept his affairs to divination and money making he would be relatively harmless, even though he would for all that be an abomination unto God. The reason he would be relatively harmless is because he would of necessity have to wait for men to come to him. He would not be able to go after men. When you have a combination of God’s anointing as well as pride you have a truly dangerous situation. Balaam stands out as a warning. Yet he did not go after others, they came to him. He spoke of the “righteous Branch” which is Christ, and yet when he was asked by the king of Moab to harm Israel, even though he was able to acknowledge the truth, he still could not resist the money so became an instrument in harming Israel. This is something to fear, but Balaam paid for his love of money in his own body when he was slain by the sword of the Israelites. Not only was this Balaam an instrument in God’s hands to test Israel, but he is an example to the church. The fact that he loved money means that he is given as a warning.
The really dangerous man is not a saint at all. He is a wolf, which taking advantage of the foolishness which prideful prophetic men exercise when they gather, making an entrance for him into the flocks of God by approving him who flatters them. In the end he may prove stronger than they are and drive them out of the flock as well thereby taking captive the whole of that flock. This is in direct contrast to the early church where the Apostles we able to expose these men, and in the end they were driven out because they could find no satisfaction by remaining. As they were driven out they were proven to be “not one of us” as it is written.
bearmaster wrote:
Heh 1::1 says God spoke through the prophets in times past. Today in the New Covenant God is speaking through his Son Jesus. That revelation is contained in the New Testament. So why do we need prophets today?
Number one because God ordained them. These have been set forth in the New Covenant in the body of Christ:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, PROPHETS; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily PROPHETS, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Also, there are 455 verses (AV) containing the word prophet (s, tess, ) 298 in the OT and 157 in the NT; so God definitely wanted them in the body of Christ, including the 11 verses about false prophets. (Something to think about) Most people major on those 11 verses rather than the other 444 verses about prophets.
It’s just my opinion but the church in America today seems to forget that “HE THAT RECEIVES A PROPHET IN THE NAME OF A PROPHET SHALL RECEIVE A PROPHET’S REWARD;” and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. (Matt 10:41)
There is a reward in receiving a prophet and his/her words but can we get passed our own biases and indoctrination in order to do that? Sadly, most cannot and they miss that reward.
Just my short synopsis and opinion on why prophets are needed for today!
God bless,
Lisa
My sister I started the thread not to dispute whether the calling of the prophet is still valid in this day. You know there are many who are calling themselves prophets and issuing forth all sorts of garbage that is being purported as prophesy. Some of them have well known names you are aware of.
What does concern ne is many in the prophetic movement are going after these self styled prophets. They are laying aside the prophetic writings themselves, the scriptures. The scriptures that testify of Jesus.
I am not advocating cessionism. I did remark I was a modified cesionist. But then that is taking on labels. I guess I am rethinking things before the Lord. What I am seeing is the prophetic gifts being worked ut in the corporate body of the believers. Those who are yielded before Jesus Who are empty before him. He will give his prophetic gifts those saints who are yielded to Jesus. To those who are broken and empty before him. Not to the self styled person who is called a prophet. Mainly by himself. And enjoys the accolades of the people.
These are just my thoughts. Nothing concrete. I find myself wanting too sta in the prophetic writings them selves.. For in the end times we will be martyred for the Word of God and and for our testimony of that Word.
Bearmaster
I will add in the end times false prophets will appear. They will try to deceive een the elect. They will not wear a sign that says "Hi y'all. I am a false prophet.". But they will speak smoothly and do it in the name of Jesus. I think we are seeing many such prophets arise today. Many of them have large followings. Many claim to have powerful intercessory networks. Yet I see very little Jesus and his word among these so called prophets.
I believe this is why the saints are martyred in the end times for the Word of God and the testimony they have maintained. It us not so much they ate dying for a boo. But for him who is the sum total of that book. They are dying for Jesus who is the Word of whom the word testifies. He is the truth that reveals the false prophets. For Jesus said I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Just my input.
Bearmaster.
bearmaster wrote:
You know there are many who are calling themselves prophets and issuing forth all sorts of garbage that is being purported as prophesy. Some of them have well known names you are aware of.What does concern ne is many in the prophetic movement are going after these self styled prophets. They are laying aside the prophetic writings themselves, the scriptures. The scriptures that testify of Jesus.
Back to the matter at hand... It is pitiful the way people flock to these false prophets but there is nothing you or I can do about it EXCEPT to pray for the real Jesus to please stand up in their lives or in ours. My niece went to hear Todd Bentley against all I could say to her; there seemed to be absolutely nothing I could say – she did not have ears to hear. And that seems to be the problem with the masses that flock to these people, they do not have ears to hear the One True God.
And be it known that it is possible to deceive the elect, because it’s already happened – in our generation.
We need to remember that there were 450 false prophets to one true prophet, Elijah. I’m quite sure the statistics hasn’t changed all that much in these days and times. Let the God that answers by fire be God and that only takes “one” real prophet!
God bless,
Lisa
I think that I erred in using the term pride in describing the believer who rejects the prophetic ministry entirely without addressing the nature of stubbornness. One who has been offended by the various false prophets may in reaction reject all of the ministry of the prophet and clearly it is in scripture and clearly for the edification of the body of Christ -- To dismiss that may be in fact a reaction of stubbornness and the scriptures proclaim that a stubborn attitude is manifested as idolatry. When we are caught up in a stubborn spirit we close off our ability to be taught by scripture and set our own opinions up as idols within the temple of our life and being -- The very place Christ is to have the ascendancy and mastery! We go to that stubborn idol of opinion and and stop before it. We allow it to stop our ability to go beyond it and enter meekly before the throne of God to be taught! The grace of God which will bestow upon us all the glory of His kingdom and allow us to receive wisdom to discern the false as to what it really is, may be closed to us if we hold on to a stubborn attitude. We can not experience the full grace of God if we pridefully proclaim our SELF generated opinions as holy and do not acknowledge them as the idols they are. Let us tear these places of idolatry down and cast them from our hearts. Let us have the sense that an old cow does: She eats the hay and leaves the straw.
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