Is it God's WILL to heal ALL who come to Him for healing?

It's been a while since I have been on this forum but wanting a break from the usual bashing and arguing that happens on many other Christian forums I figured it would be good for me to come here and try my hand at discussing this issue here.

To see if I might be able to have a more reasoned and respectful discussion with some true believers.

Anyway I would like to discuss the issue, if anyone is interested, of whether or not it is God's WILL for ALL to be healed who come to Jesus for physical healing.

I have been thinking about healing and whether or not it is God's WILL for it to be done today as it was in the New Testament.

Please note that I am not saying that there is a promise of healing for ALL (though James 5 seems to be such a promise at least for Christians who fulfill it's conditions).

Only wondering if it is God's WILL for ALL to be healed.

Jesus healed ALL who came to Him. In so far as He was the exact representation of God the Father, expressing God's will perfectly in all that He said and did it stands to reason I think that the fact that He healed ALL was an expression of God's WILL to heal ALL.

I would appreciate hearing anyone's thoughts on this or any aspect of healing that you might have an interest in discussing.

Thanks.

Carlos

Jesus healed ALL who came to Him.

Jesus did not heal all who came to him. He healed those who came to him with faith that Jesus can heal them if it is his will.

I don't believe there is anything wrong in coming to Jesus for Physical healing, Jesus accepts everyone who comes to him. For example the prodigal son did not come for all good reason, he came back to his father for better food, but his father accepted him. Once you come here, the more you see Jesus you start loving him more and he becomes a part of life. But most of the preachers involved in Healing ministry keep their listeners interested in only healing throughout their life instead of making them focus on other important things in Christian life.

It seems to me that many answers may be ones that do not actually answer the question the original poster asked.

They asked

Is it God's WILL to heal ALL who come to Him for healing?

It seems to me that is a very important distinction.

If I understand them correctly they are asking if it is God's will to heal them. In essence does He WANT to heal them?

That is a very different question that if they are all healed or if lack of faith is the only, or primary, reason people do not receive physical healing.

So...is it God's will to heal all people that come to him in faith and ask Him to? Does He WANT and DESIRE them to be made well.... or does He WANT and DESIRE them to be sick, diseased, and hurt?

That's a really good question.

I've only got a minute before my computer power goes off for the night but yes...I meant...

Is it God's WILL for all who come to him in faith to be healed?

Everyone who came to Jesus to be healed, which shows some measure of faith, was healed.

Is that an expression of the WILL of God for us all?

I can appreciate how the Lord is using people who are sick or disabled but we must not base any answer to this question on whether God is using sick or disabled people. Rather we should base our answer on what the Word shows us about the WILL of God in this matter and go from there.

God willing...I'll post more tomorrow.

Thanks for the responses so far.

Carlos

Oh...one more thing.

A question really.

How do we know that Paul's thorn in the flesh was a physical ailment or disease as opposed to a Satanic demon or power that oppressed Paul as he went about doing the work of God?

Paul himself said that this thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan.

Could that not have been some kind of demon?

Carlos

Here we go again.

There will be 10 pages of responses and no one will change their minds.

There are some people who think that God wants people sick and suffering to teach them a good lesson and others who think that is a bunch on nonsense. There is scriptural evidence on both sides. There is no evidence from scripture that Jesus put sickness on anybody to teach them a lesson. But yet we know of saints in the NT who were not healed. And if God COULD heal them but chooses not to even when they ask, then in a manner of speaking He is putting sickness on them.

So Carlos, if you want to believe that God would rather have people well and not sick, then you can believe that.

And if others want to believe that God wants people sick for His purposes, they can believe that too.

That's a very good question. Everyone needs healing from something. I asked God for an answer.

One day as I was driving to church, this small voice spoke and said, "Roger, I could make all things new, but it would be back just lack it is."

I had failed to look at healing from God's point of view.
I realized yes, we all want healing; but all don't want to obey. I listen to prayer requests at church, often asked for others. I don't know them, their life, or how they are living.

Do I want my hearing restored so I can watch more TV, or gossip more, go dancing and partying again?

Take time to look at it from God's view. Maybe we need to meditate on His view more. Would he heal us if we were headed for the lake of fire?

Jesus ministry was what it was. It gave glory to God. If healing was happening today in the church, one couldn't find a seat. But then you have to remember the 5000 who followed Jesus who only wanted a meal and not his message.

There's a lot of unknown in healing. I think we see less physical healing today because of lack of people seeking God.

Every sickness has it's root in the devil.

There is no sickness in heaven,and there was none in the garden.

It is real simple.

God = good
Devil = bad

Sickness = bad

Some are not saved.Does this mean it is God's will for one of his children to be condemned to hell?

Sickness is not more powerful than God.But God respects the human will.Sometimes a bitter person can be afflicted and no prayer can help because the root of bitterness must be dealt with first.

Sometimes a con artist gets afflicted and there can be no healing till he is made right.

Some have demons and are demon possessed.The demons need to go,and the spirit made healthy again before physical healing.

Read some of Wigglesworth's adventures with the Holy Ghost.

Psalm1 wrote:

"It is real simple.

God = good
Devil = bad

Sickness = bad"
-------------------
It would be nice if it were as simple as that, but your equation, which I have heard many times and used to try to believe, is a gross oversimplification of the subject.

People who ascribe to this "formula" apparently don't object to it being God's will for Christians to suffer crippling injuries through accidents (like Joni Erickson Tada), or to die as a result of persecution or criminal violence. What is it about the common cold that God objects to, when he does not object to fatal car crashes or Christians being skinned alive and slowly roasted alive?

WITH ALL THAT SAID.... It is always my default position that when a person I know is sick or stricken with illness or injury that I will pray for a complete healing and command sickness to leave in Jesus' name. And I don't tack the phrase "if it be Your will" at the end, either. I think we need to boldly pray for healing, because I think that is what Jesus wants us to do. I simply cannot imagine refusing to pray for a sick person because "it might not be God's will."

So I guess the argument whether it is always God's will for a person to be well is something of an academic argument. Because regardless, I think we need to be praying for sick people to be healed. It is what Christians do.

"So Carlos, if you want to believe that God would rather have people well and not sick, then you can believe that."

And I could likewise say...here we go again with the Christian baloney that I am trying to get away from.

I do not WANT a thing respecting this issue other than discovering what God's will is. So this isn't what I WANT or do not WANT to believe.

It is a matter of whether or not the bible is clear on this or not.

Some of you maybe have hashed this out in the past and have seen no end to this issue. Fine. I haven't.

Just don't participate on the thread if you don't want to enlighten me or others on what you know about this issue and think there is no solution in sight in terms of united thinking on this.

I don't believe for one minute that this issue is one of those over which sincere believers who have a right heart before God can't agree on.

If you believe that too then let's discuss in a spirit of mutual respect and consideration.

That's what I am here for.

If this forum is infested with the usual Christian bashing and accusations and ridiculous baloney that passes for Christian discussion in many places online, I am out of here and will go elsewhere.

Carlos

I'd like to say something else.

People are bringing stuff up that doesn't mean a thing respecting this issue.

I quite frankly don't care how much the Lord has used Joni Erickson Tada. I mean that's wonderful and her life is a great testimony. I am not knocking what God has done through her but...what God has done through her in her disability doesn't mean a think respecting whether or not it is God's WILL to heal ALL as revealed through what the Lord Jesus did!

We don't establish doctrine by what we experience and go backwards to superimpose what that says or does not say on what the Word says!

We ought rather to seek the Lord and understand what the Word says and then seek to superimpose what IT says on our lives and our experience. Where the Word rises above our experience and calls our experience (i.e. a lack of healing) into question then so should we.

So please...let's set aside our experiences of healing or not at least in terms of using those experiences to embrace this or that belief and then superimposing those beliefs on what the Word says to make it say what our experience tells us (or that we think it tells us).

Let's just look at the Word and let the Word speak!

And shift our beliefs to embrace what IT says!

Whatever that IT may be.

Carlos

I think we are too quickly discounting what Jesus did in expressing the WILL of God regarding the healing of ALL who came to Him in faith that He would heal them.

Let me put it this way.

Would we agree that it was the WILL of God as expressed through Jesus to heal ALL who came to Him for healing in faith at the time that Jesus lived on this earth in bodily form?

Yes or no?

We would be hard pressed to answer no to that since in fact He healed ALL who came to Him in faith.

Unless you can show me a single instance of where He didn't such that God's WILL might have been different than that and not so all out conclusive by virtue of Jesus healing ALL.

Now if you agree that it was God's WILL to heal ALL as expressed in what Jesus did then the next logical question is whether or not that WILL has changed in some way to where today God's WILL is NOT that ALL be healed.

In other words if a person could come to Jesus then and expect to be healed through the demonstrated willingness of God in Christ to heal ALL then can we of today come to Jesus by faith and expect to be similarly healed today?

If not why not? What has changed?

Are there biblical grounds, not logical or experiential grounds, but biblical for believing that Jesus would have healed someone then but NOT today as a matter of it being His WILL that it be so where His WILL has changed?

Anybody?

Assume for a minute that I am a grasshopper and am wanting to learn and am coming here to seek the input of mature Christians on this issue. Teach me. Show me the biblical grounds if there are any but do it with the realization that I may question your grounds if there are reasonable grounds to question it.

Carlos

I had not read them until you reminded me of them just now.

I just read them in their entirety.

Not sure I understand the rest of your post here Jesus-is-God (don't know what else to call you). Can you clarify what you intended to say about Job and his friends and about judging God and how that relates to determining if it is the WILL of God to heal ALL today as it was in the days when Jesus walked the earth in physical form?

Carlos

I'd like to share a bit more about why I am asking about this.

When I have prayed for healing of various ailments lately the Lord has led me to realize that most all my prayers for healing are what I call prayers of hope.

Not prayers of faith.

Which serves to explain I think as to why it is that I have not seen much of any healing either in my own life or in the lives of others that I have prayed for.

I can hope for all kinds of things. I can hope that my favorite football team will win the championship. I may hope (or wish if you will) that I will make lots of money in my business. I can hope for this and hope for that.

But that's NOT faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In other words faith takes hold of God and believes Him for what we hope for based on His promises.

Faith sees what we hope for as a present possession. Faith looks past what we see with our natural eyes to what we do not see and sees evidence of it coming into being as though it was.

Mark 11:22 (AKJV - American King James Version)

Have faith in God. For truly I say to you, That whoever shall say to this mountain, Be you removed, and be you cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he said shall come to pass; he shall have whatever he said. Therefore I say to you, What things soever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.

It seems to me that if we cannot believe that God WILL heal us then we likely won't get healed!

But to believe that God WILL heal us we must in turn be absolutely convinced that it is God's WILL to heal us.

If we cannot bring ourselves to believe that this is God's will, based on what the Word says, then we will never be in a position to be able to effectively pray healing into existence.

Prayers of hope won't cut it. At least not with God.

We must pray in faith. In the certainty that God WILL heal us not that He might.

Notice what it says in James...

James 5:14 (AKJV)

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up;

Notice that it talks of the "prayer of faith". Not of hope as in wishing for something that may or may not happen but of FAITH. In the certainty that something we are praying for WILL happen.

So that is why I am asking this question. Because I want to determine if indeed it is God's WILL to heal ALL.

If it is I can come to God by FAITH and believe Him to heal with the likely result that I will see healings happen.

If it is not...then there is no certainty about praying for healing since we won't know if it is God's WILL to heal ALL.

And if it is NOT the WILL of God to heal ALL then we have no way of knowing whether or not He will heal us or anyone else in particular (short of a divine revelation I suppose).

Such that we have NO basis for praying in faith for healing either for ourselves or anyone else.

Prayers for healing that are NOT prayers of faith are a waste of time and unlikely to produce healing any more than prayers of hope offered up by any religious person anywhere who has no faith in the Living God.

Carlos

I see there is a bit of a spiritual fever on this thread that needs healing. Perhaps I can help with that.
The Word shows that it is God's will to make you "whole". But "the Lord is a God of judgment" Isaiah 30:18. The word translated "judgment" means "method, order, system, law. So here is what the Scripture says about God's will and order to make us "whole".
"And the very God of PEACE(emphasis mine) sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and whole soul(mind, will, emotions) and whole body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calleth you, who also will do it." 1 Thess. 5:23, 24
I think that is pretty clear on His will and His order. God would not be so merciful to heal our body of a physical disease and leave a spiritual malady left undone. God always works in the order of spirit, soul and body. Once we see the spiritual malady and allow him to correct and heal that He has no reason to afflict us further. "That ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins: then sayeth He to the sick of the palsy, Rise!"
I know in other cases, such as that of Susan Allibone, she was crippled and in a wheelchair, yet walked in the Spirit and her life glorified God. And in such cases who sinned? Perhaps noone, but this was for the glory of God.
Either way, let God be glorified!

Hi ProclaimIt (don't know what else to call you...I wish people would use their name...sigh),

Forgive me if I don't answer each of your questions in turn. This forum is incredibly frustrating for me to use technically speaking...so I will summarize my reason for asking...

I want to know if it is the WILL of God to heal ALL who come to Him for healing today so that I can both find healing for any ailments that I myself may have AND so that I can be used of God to bring healing to ALL that have need of it as part of a Body whose aim is to be Jesus to those who come in contact with Him in us.

And why do I wish that?

For His honor and glory! Period.

I don't care if others are the instrument of bringing that healing or not and not me. If it's His greater honor and glory that I seek, and it is, it doesn't matter who is used by God to bring that honor and glory to Him.

What I tire of is the seemingly constant questioning of my motives, the impugning of my character, false accusations, evil inuendos, slander, and the like that are sent my way when I come into forums and start asking questions or making points based on the Word. I understand the need to ask me of my motives so that is not directed at you but I also would encourage you and others to think the best of me unless you see reason to believe otherwise.

I also tire of Christians being so content with the status quo of how things are in the church of today that they never seem to have much interest in asking if God might want things to be different and how we might go about doing our Father's business in a way that is both more pleasing to Him and more effective.

As a child of God, I emphasize child, I read the Word and innocently see lots of healing going on there. I read about various instances of healing around the world today, mostly in third world countries among the poor in spirit as well as poor in wealth and hardly any going on here in North America.

I want to approach what the Word says as a child. Putting aside any religious sophistication and puffed up arrogance to receive what is written. As fresh and wonderful as if I had never read it before.

And I want to learn from anyone, I don't give a hoot how young or old in the Lord they are, who can point me to a better understanding of what pleases God in this and a great many other issues that I have not posted on.

I've even learned things from unbelieving atheist whom the Lord has graciously used to speak into my life at times!

So by all means share whatever it is that you think might be used of the Lord to help me determine if it is indeed the WILL of God to heal ALL (or not as the case may be).

I only ask that you set aside any pride that may be present by virtue of knowing much and come alongside of me to learn from God as a brother in the Lord. As children who do not necessarily know as we ought to know but willing to seek and learn and discuss things in love until we arrive at a more perfect understanding (and practice) in this issue.

Carlos

Hey Carlos -

You say you want to know the truth on this issue. I agree.

Your character and motive for asking will be questioned predominately because you have put to fine a point on the topic! Many will not be comfortable or able to address this from The Word alone. Some will want to use personal experience or ingrained belief... that may be short on Biblical substance.

It seems clear that many followers of Christ do not know what His Word actually says on the topic. Therefore they can not have faith. Faith only begins where the will of God is know. That only comes from His Word.

I can't answer in full tonight but will ask a few questions that will begin to shed light on the topic if answered honestly.

1. In the Gospels is there ever even one time Jesus told someone who came to Him in faith that He did would not heal them?

2.Is there even one time in the Gospels or Acts that Jesus said that He wanted a follower of His to be sick or diseased to teach them a lesson or learn something?

3. If all the accounts of physical healing in The Gospels and Acts are fully examined what exactly and specifically did Jesus attribute the healings to? How many times each?

4. What is the one thing specifically mentioned in the Gospels that made it impossible for Jesus to manifest physical healing?

5. Did Jesus purchase physical healing as part of the New Covenant when He bought our redemption?

6. When Galatians says that , "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law", what specifically and exactly are the things He redeemed us from. In essence what was the curse of the Law that He redeemed us from

7. If God The Father is the one who afflicts His followers with sickness and disease and also is the one Who heals them did Jesus testify that He would then be a "kingdom divided against Himself?" Jesus DID say this when accused of casting out devils by the power of satan. Specifically Jesus said if "satan cast out satan he is a kingdom divided against himself and can not stand". If one says God afflicts and heals does that not also imply they accuse God of being a kingdom divided against Himself?

8. When referring to Job have you noticed that 1. Job did not even know satan existed and therefore attributed all things to God. He had no idea that he had an enemy. 2. Job also had no redemption purchased by Jesus Christ to give him access to the Father. Futher, Job had not been redeemed from the curse of the law mentioned earlier. Why then would the lack of knowledge and lesser covenant Job lived under be one we aspired to use as defending God's desire to make His people sick and diseased... or at least allow them to be so.

Well... that is enough questions to get the research flowing. Carlos is right... what does The Word actually say about this area. NOT personal opinions, testimonies, etc. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word. It seems to me that there is so little faith in this area because His Word is not known in this area. But it can be!

Solomon101 said

I can't answer in full tonight but will ask a few questions that will begin to shed light on the topic if answered honestly.

I think this thread has taken a turn that can be very good if it everyone involved takes it in the right direction. That being the point that in all things doctrinal and perhaps controversial we need to look very carefully at what the word has to say about the issue and conform our thinking and opinion in every area to the word of God.

But, there are some barriers to this that I think we need to be aware of and intentionally overcome. First, we have a tendency to approach the Bible with our own doctrinal bias and then look for proof texts that fit, or seem to fit, our predetermined belief. We really have to be aware of this and fight the tendency to do so. I think we all have done this. "Well, I believe this about scripture. See, here are the texts that prove what I believe. This verse and this verse and this one." Never mind that we have pulled that verse out of context or ignored the verse in the next chapter.

Second, there are deeply held emotional and personal investments in our denominations and doctrines. I know of a belief or two that will get you kicked out of several churches, or at least shunned. And these beliefs are foundational New Testament teachings that are throughout scripture. We must commit ourselves to studying the word to show ourselves approved and to conforming ourselves to the word no matter the personal consequences. We must make the word of God first place, not our denominational slant on the word of God.

So I think solomon101's questions are ones that we really should focus on answering honestly from the word of God on this issue and allow our own fallible thinking to be conformed to the word of God on the issue.

Jesus-is-God: After your comment I had this thought come to me. I too have seen many great men of God die for one reason or another. Some were of a ripe old age and had lived a long life. Some were young. Some simply sat down and gave up the ghost. Some battled a sickness. Some, like my uncle who was hit by a car, died suddenly and without warning. But I don't think their deaths necessarily say anything about the will of God to heal. I know I am dancing around a very related issue that may need to be discussed and that is the doctrine of sovereignty. But scripture is clear that God's specifically stated will is not always accomplished. It is not His will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, yet not all come to repentance. So it is possible that it is His will for all to be healed and yet not all are healed. This would be especially true if we have anything to do with it, i.e. a response of faith in order to receive.

This does not have anything to do with our perception of the spirituality of that man of God. After all, God does not respond to us based on merit, but rather based on faith. In other words, there is no reason that a "great man of God" should be healed more readily than an "average Joe Christian". I would say that the fact that we, me included, have used the term "great men of God" demonstrates that somehow, in our minds, we hold the belief that God somehow has respect of persons in this regard or that God somehow responds to the "more spiritual" among us.

I encountered this one evening as I sought to pray with a teacher at a local Bible college for his own healing. He said that he did not believe it God's will to heal every person every time. When I asked why he responded that his mother was a very sainted woman and that if anyone deserved to be healed it was her, and yet she did not receive healing and died. Deep in his heart was the belief that God heals because we have earned it. Yet he would have fought tooth and nail against someone who taught legalism and impugned the doctrine of freely given grace.

So I think there is more to the issue than, "If it is God's will it will happen." As with salvation, faith is involved. We all know that sickness happens. We all know that the corruption of sin has taken hold of the physical world, i.e. sickness, tornadoes, floods, earthquakes, diseases, birth defects, etc.. We also know that as believers we still live in physical, unregenerate bodies, so sickness is a battle for us as well. But this is not a commentary on the will of God, but rather a commentary on the effects of sin on the human race.

So lets study to show ourselves approved so that we might make proof of what the will of God really is.

Blessings all.

QUOTE;"It would be nice if it were as simple as that, but your equation, which I have heard many times and used to try to believe, is a gross oversimplification of the subject. It would be nice if it were as simple as that, but your equation, which I have heard many times and used to try to believe, is a gross oversimplification of the subject."

You say you used to try and believe God is good?

QUOTE;"People who ascribe to this "formula" apparently don't object to it being God's will for Christians to suffer crippling injuries through accidents (like Joni Erickson Tada), or to die as a result of persecution or criminal violence. What is it about the common cold that God objects to, when he does not object to fatal car crashes or Christians being skinned alive and slowly roasted alive?

WITH ALL THAT SAID.... It is always my default position that when a person I know is sick or stricken with illness or injury that I will pray for a complete healing and command sickness to leave in Jesus' name. And I don't tack the phrase "if it be Your will" at the end, either. I think we need to boldly pray for healing, because I think that is what Jesus wants us to do. I simply cannot imagine refusing to pray for a sick person because "it might not be God's will."

So I guess the argument whether it is always God's will for a person to be well is something of an academic argument. Because regardless, I think we need to be praying for sick people to be healed. It is what Christians do."

I hear you say it is sorta God's will to heal.

Lets look in the new covenant,the on Jesus made.

James 5;15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Is It God's will to protect you? What if I could find a brother that seemingly was not protected and was hurt or died? Does that mean God does not want to protect?

Does God want to save everyone?What if I could show you someone that has never been saved even though a thousand folks have prayed for him? Does that mean God has no interest in his soul?

The same is true of healing.Some are not healed.That in no way makes it God's will for them to be sick.

By the way,have you heard this formula?;

God = Salvation
Devil = condemnation

It is the simple truths of the word that confound the human intellect

An item to note "The prayer of FAITH will heal the sick"

The body of Christ has been fed the propaganda for so long that it "might not" be God's will to heal that it is no wonder so many are not healed.

How in the world am I going to have any faith if I believe God may not heal them?

No sir.It has to be settled in the minister that God WILL heal them.

What we see today are 'Peek-a-boo" prayers.We pray and then hope our lack of faith will be winked at then peek to see if by some miracle God healed them in spite of the depleted faith.

Number one.

Don't pray to Jesus or God for the person to be healed.

You stand and evict that trespasser just like you would vermin from your home.

Now......what if the trespasser was invited? AHHHH,now we are starting to see the mystery of "why are so many NOT healed"

The rat won't run out of the house if the door is preventing it's exit,nor will there be success if the owner of the house grabs it and coddles it.

I once saw a man refuse prayer at an accident because he wanted to be paid handsomely for whiplash.

We want to label our ineffectiveness as God's will.

All I am hearing from you is "Big talk Billy Graham here is Charles Manson's phone number now go save him"

Thread title"Is it God's WILL to heal ALL who come to Him for healing?"

What was the town Jesus could do no miracles in?

What was the reason given?

QUOTE FROM PROCLAIMIT;
"Notice the suffering is due to the lack of the wholeness of God's people on earth."

You are comparing the persecution of the believer to sickness.

There is no comparison.

Quote;"Hey guys. Lets share this thing in love then the intention of those who have provided this venue for us will have been served, and God will indeed be glorified."

A thousand amens to that!!

Well... as so often happens here things are posted that are just emotion, personal experience, and defending a theological perspective. That is how we never find the actual truth from the Word.

I asked several question from the Word that are central to finding truth on this topic. No one answerted any of them.... although there was a good bit of emotional blow up that had nothing to do with scripture.

I am posting just the questions. Any answers?

1. In the Gospels is there ever even one time Jesus told someone who came to Him in faith that He did would not heal them?

2.Is there even one time in the Gospels or Acts that Jesus said that He wanted a follower of His to be sick or diseased to teach them a lesson or learn something?

3. If all the accounts of physical healing in The Gospels and Acts are fully examined what exactly and specifically did Jesus attribute the healings to? How many times each?

4. What is the one thing specifically mentioned in the Gospels that made it impossible for Jesus to manifest physical healing?

5. Did Jesus purchase physical healing as part of the New Covenant when He bought our redemption?

6. When Galatians says that , "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law", what specifically and exactly are the things He redeemed us from. In essence what was the curse of the Law that He redeemed us from

7. If God The Father is the one who afflicts His followers with sickness and disease and also is the one Who heals them did Jesus testify that He would then be a "kingdom divided against Himself?" Jesus DID say this when accused of casting out devils by the power of satan. Specifically Jesus said if "satan cast out satan he is a kingdom divided against himself and can not stand". If one says God afflicts and heals does that not also imply they accuse God of being a kingdom divided against Himself?

8. When referring to Job have you noticed that 1. Job did not even know satan existed and therefore attributed all things to God. He had no idea that he had an enemy. 2. Job also had no redemption purchased by Jesus Christ to give him access to the Father. Futher, Job had not been redeemed from the curse of the law mentioned earlier. Why then would the lack of knowledge and lesser covenant Job lived under be one we aspired to use as defending God's desire to make His people sick and diseased... or at least allow them to be so.

I don't mean this last comment to be harsh. However, it needs to be said. If you read these questions and go to look for a scripture to validate your belief as opposed to honestly looking for truth EVEN IF IT VIOLATES YOUR CURRENTLY DEEPEST HELP BELIEF then you will never find the truth and will walk in error. You are proof texting your beliefs rather than conforming your beliefs to what is actually written. Again, said in love... but needs to be said.

CAPS are for emphasizing the phrase only. No yelling was intended.

I recall a time about 15 years ago when I was discussing the security of the believer with a student of mine. I was convinced that if I, as a Christian, committed a sin, I would lose my salvation until I confessed and repented of that sin. I am a high school teacher and my student was a sophomore or junior in high school. The example she proposed was that of screaming profanity in the moments before a fatal car crash. Would I as the victim go to heaven or hell. I knew what I believed and I was convinced. After all, it was exactly what I had been taught my whole life growing up in the foundations of 20th century American Pentecost. I could even take you to the right scriptures to prove my point. The student's attitude was humble, she was not argumentative, but simply asked how I could see it that way?

The question drove me to the scriptures, and what I found there changed my paradigm. I began to get a glimpse of the power of the grace of God and the reality of what Jesus did on the cross. A careful study of scripture showed me that my belief was a ditch on one side of the issue. I was not looking at the full picture. I still believe it is possible to lose your salvation, but not by uttering a profanity in the last moments before the crash.

I give that example because I have come to realize that, as a teacher of the word, I will not live by or be held accountable for my denomination's doctrines or for my opinion of scripture. It is important that I prayerfully study and allow God to change my thinking in any area, no matter how much emotional attachment I have for that doctrine.

I would love to see this issue, as well as others, discussed in this manner. Without prior bias, we introduce the scriptures that apply. We can talk about context, we can compare scripture with scripture, we can ask questions about those scriptures both from honest desire to know as well as from the perspective of helping the other guy to think about something that perhaps he or she has missed.

This topic cannot be discussed thoroughly without delving into the idea of sovereignty. After all, some believe that God sovereignly wills sickness. So what does it mean for God to be sovereign. What scriptures specifically deal with this issue? Is our thinking on this issue totally from an exegetical reading of scripture, or are we reading our own ideas into the study?

We must also delve into the idea of faith and our response to God. A quick reading of the NT accounts of healing show that faith was, more often than not, specifically mentioned as an element in the healing. Does physical healing require faith just as salvation requires faith?

I would like to start by throwing out a couple of scriptures in reply to Solomon's question about the atonement. Isaiah 53 tells us that surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. Matthew in chapter 8 verse 17 gives the commentary that Isaiah was talking about infirmities and sicknesses. So we have OT scripture with NT commentary that places healing in the atoning work of Christ along with salvation.

David in Psalm 103:3 prophecies forgiveness of sin and healing of disease as two related works of Christ.

So it seems to me that these three passages place healing in the atonement.

Perhaps there are other scriptures that provide further commentary?

I am humbled by the spirit of most of the replies that have been posted since I looked at this thread yesterday.

Humbled in that my post here may not even approach some of yours for grace and mercy and for a right spirit of humility.

But as lacking in such things as I may be I do feel a need to say some things and to share some of what the Lord laid on my heart on this issue this morning.

Please take what I say or rather the spirit in which I say it with a grain of spiritual salt. You see I tend toward being a prophetic type person and am more like John the Baptist than like...well...than like a meeker saint might be.

Anyway...here are a couple of thoughts.

Someone said that they were offended by what someone else wrote. Offended I suppose by virtue of what someone else wrote seeming to offend the memory if not the character of a various great men of God who have died.

May I quite frankly say that such being offended does NOT lead us to discover what God may have for us in this or any other issue?

We must set aside our tendency to be offended either for ourselves or on behalf of anyone else and come to the Lord as children willing to let the cards of the Word (so to speak) fall where they may.

No one that I can see is intentionally trying to offend anyone. As such no offense should be presumed or taken.

Secondly people continue to go on and on in some cases about their experiences, about this or about that...that really have no bearing on what the Word actually says. My interest is in what the Word SAYS. To first uncover what IT says and then evaluate our experiences in light of that.

I do hope we can get away from seeming to defend this or that position regarding this issue based on what seems to be mainly our good or bad experiences and NOT what the Word actually says about it.

It does not matter whether my dad died of sickness, my grandmother, my mom, my child or all my children, whether the most godly man I know prayed for them all such that they still died or my beloved dog died after much rebuking and prayer.

NONE of that matters one iota! With respect to whether or not the Word says a thing or not.

What has happened in our life or what has happened to our loved one's is IRRELEVANT with respect to determining what the Word says on this.

We must let go of hurt and pain and previous association with this or that idea or doctrine to have any hope of arriving at truth.

Another thing...

Some of what I will be sharing of what the Lord laid on my heart this morning may come across like a WOF thing. At least that is what I think you all call it around here (Word of Faith).

DON'T make the mistake of lumping me into a school of thought that you are vehemently against or see as completely contrary to the Word.

DON'T discount what I say by association.

I could care less about WOF anything. I am not out to defend WOF anything. I don't subscribe to the name it and claim it baloney.

But in some things I may come across like I believe a WOF this or that.

Take what I say as something to consider and go to the Word!

Forget the WOF business. We are not discussing the WOF business or any other.

We are discussing whether it is God's will to heal ALL who come to Him in faith today as it was apparently the WILL of God as expressed in Jesus then to heal ALL.

That's it. If you add anything else to that or go hooping and hollering about this or that in defense of this or that other thing which is not directly or indirectly related to that...we will get nowhere. Worse you may be instrumental in side tracking this thread to go who knows where.

I do hope you all take what I have said above with a grain of spiritual salt. Cleave to the good. Assume the rest to be the ramblings of someone who is still growing in grace and show me how it is done by way of expressing the grace that I may be missing as an example to me.

Anyway I will post another post as this one is getting quite long about what the Lord laid on my heart this morning.

Carlos

Oh...one thing I would like to say about those who have so graciously responded at length to me on this thread.

Know that I have read every single word you wrote. It's difficult for me to respond on this forum as not only do you all not seem to use your real names around here such that I have to try and remember what your pseudo name is but in cases where I don't remember it I must trudge through this forum's way of being which is incredibly frustrating compared to what I am used to...to find your previous post.

I can't quote what you say easily.

And it...well...just gets to be too much to go back and forth trying to quote you and respond to this or that point raised.

You will have to bear with me and forgive me if I don't respond at length to every thing shared with me.

But I DO read every word!

Carlos

Why did Paul leave Trophimus sick? Why did Paul tell Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach and constant ailments when all Timothy needed was to be in "the will of God?""

Good and valid questions.

Why did Paul leave Trophimus sick? Well, we might presume that he left him because the travel might well be hard on a sick man. We know he was sick. We know that Paul left him. That is all we know from scripture.

Why did Paul tell Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach and constant ailments? Actually he said, drink no longer water, but use a little wine... Again, we must make assumptions. Perhaps Timothy was fasting or was taking a Nazarite vow for a period of time. That would explain the "drink no longer water" part of the statement. But in saying that I am making an assumption that scripture does not state.

Obviously both Trophimus and Timothy suffered ailment or sickness at some point. I am not sure that this is commentary on God's will, but rather on their experience.

As to the issue of sovereignty, two questions.

First, where do we find the term sovereign in scripture, and if and when it is used, what does the Greek or Hebrew word mean? I know that in some translations the term LORD in the OT is translated as sovereign. It means the self-existent one or Jehovah. So this does not help us to understand what scripture means when it reveals God as sovereign. Second, are there any other scriptures that teach about God's sovereignty, and what do they teach?

Here then is what the Lord laid on my heart this morning.

I basically sought Him and asked Him to open my heart to see what He would want me to see as I read in Luke. That was not all I prayed mind you but it represents the gist of what I asked of Him this morning.

I came to Him as an empty vessel to be filled.

The first verse that struck me was the following...all quotations are from the American King James Version of the bible which is in the public domain and may be freely quoted.

Please note that I did not purposely set out to find these verses. They were just in line with my reading plan (such as it is...I just fold a page in my bible where I was last at and then start reading from there again the next time).

Luke 6:6

And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered. And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him. But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the middle. And he arose and stood forth. Then said Jesus to them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it? And looking round about on them all, he said to the man, Stretch forth your hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Note the contrast that Jesus made to the scribes and Pharisees.

That contrast was between doing good and doing evil and between saving a life and destroying it.

A contrast that was made to highlight for them the hardness of their hearts in connection with what He was about to do in healing the man with the withered hand.

Some say that God is glorified through sickness in certain cases. The trouble with that belief is that we have no way of knowing in which case such will be the...well...case. That means that we have NO basis for exercising faith in God for a healing since in fact we have no way of knowing whether the one we are praying for (whether it be for ourselves or someone else) is one such case.

We may in fact find ourselves praying for a healing of someone that God may will to have remain sick!

Which means, if you think about the implications of such a belief, that we should NEVER, EVER pray for someone to get well since we could be praying for something that God does not will! We could be praying against the will of God!

Whatever is not of faith is sin and if we have no basis for believing that God WILLS to heal a person with certainty then we have no basis for praying for them in faith at all! At least with respect to their being healed.

Jesus made a clear distinction between that which is good and that which is not.

I think we would be hard pressed to squeeze the verses above to support the notion that having someone remain a cripple and/or sick is good.

It just ain't so...at least not according to the contrast Jesus used to speak into the lives of the scribes and Pharisees.

Here is another verse...

I will post it in a new post lest my post here get excessively long.

Carlos

Okay..the next verses are these that the Lord touched my heart through this morning...

Luke 7:1 (AKJV)

Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum. And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear to him, was sick, and ready to die. And when he heard of Jesus, he sent to him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.

And when they came to Jesus, they sought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this: For he loves our nation, and he has built us a synagogue. Then Jesus went with them. And when he was now not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to him, saying to him, Lord, trouble not yourself: for I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof: Why neither thought I myself worthy to come to you: but say in a word, and my servant shall be healed. For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say to one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my servant, Do this, and he does it.

When Jesus heard these things, he marveled at him, and turned him about, and said to the people that followed him, I say to you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick.

A couple of things to note about the above.

Note the way the centurion sent for Jesus. He did not send elders to Jesus to ask Him IF his servant could be healed. He had undoubtedly heard of what Jesus was doing and the way that ALL who came to Him were getting healed.

Rather he sent the elders to ask Jesus to come and HEAL his servant. As in believing that if Jesus came that his servant WOULD be healed. Not maybe. Not possibly. But WOULD be!

The centurion saw the healing in part as a matter of authority. Authority over sickness presumably.

This makes sense in view of Jesus having given the disciples authority to heal in another part.

What caused the servant to find healing in Jesus?

The worthiness of the centurion in the eyes of the Jews? Nope.

It was the FAITH of the centurion to believe that Jesus not only COULD but that He WOULD heal. That Jesus had authority to heal and would use that authority to HEAL.

FAITH.

FAITH.

FAITH.

Over and over again in the Gospels we observe that FAITH on the part of those who came to Jesus was the key to obtaining that which they were believing Him to do. Heal them.

Be it done according to your faith Jesus said.

Now some folks, perhaps some folks here, are likely to get all in a huff and puff and find something offensive or otherwise in the idea that a lack of faith may result in a lack of healing.

But...I must point out what should be obvious.

A lack of FAITH was precisely what led to very few healings or no healings at all (for those who did not come to Jesus at all).

Don't discount this. Don't fight against it.

I am not saying that a lack of FAITH is the ONLY reason someone doesn't get healed but it could be one for sure. Based on what is written!

We need to be open to that.

What was it that kept the disciples from being able to do everything that Jesus modeled for them to do? As in feeding the multitudes, healing the sick at ALL times, walking on water, and so forth?

It was their hardness of heart and lack of faith!

Now when I say lack of faith I am NOT saying lack of faith as in not having any at all. Don't go beyond what I am actually saying.

It is very possible that we lack faith in the right things or have incomplete knowledge of what God's WILL is respecting this issue such that we simply CAN'T believe until and if we remove the wrong thinking from our heads.

If the centurion for example had not believed that Jesus WOULD heal and definitively so then he would not have acted to send anybody to Jesus with the potential of looking like a fool in a public way to ask Jesus to heal if in fact Jesus could not.

We MUST get to the point of believing that God WILL heal or we are very unlikely to ever see any healing at all!

I pray for God routinely to heal me of various ailments but on a number of occasions the Lord has spoken to me asking me if I believe that He WILL heal me (for the moment just assume that the Lord actually has questioned me about this).

Every such time I have to confess that no, I do not believe that He WILL heal me such that...well...I have not received any kind of healing.

It has been done to me according to my faith and given my lack of faith in regard to it being the WILL of God to heal me...well...I have received no healing at all.

And why don't I believe that He WILL heal me?

I think it's the same reason I did not believe the Gospel for so long after I first heard it. Hardness of heart and an unwillingness to act in faith to take hold of that which God WILLS for me.

I mean I can say that but I still don't believe.

And why don't I believe?

I don't know. I just don't. I see the expressed WILL of God through Jesus to heal ALL. I see His compassion as moving Him often to heal. I see this or that in the Word but I STILL don't believe!

I am asking God to have mercy on me and to help me overcome my unbelief.

Because for me, THAT is what it is. That is the stumbling block for me. Unbelief.

As a result of having a highly developed cranium and a fair bit of brain matter between my two ears along with having been raised in a Western society that puts a great deal of stock in what one can see with the eyes as opposed to what can be seen by faith I think.

It will take time and perhaps a great deal of humbling for me to get to the place of even that of His disciples in being able to do by faith what they did.

Carlos

Giving that I seem to be in a roll...I might as well continue with yet another verse the Lord touched my heart through this morning...

Luke 7:12 (AKJV)

Now when he came near to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her. And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said to her, Weep not. And he came and touched the bier: and they that bore him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say to you, Arise. And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother. And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God has visited his people.

What moved Jesus to bring the dead son to life again?

COMPASSION for the widow who was going to be left without her son!

COMPASSION!

Are we of today to believe that God has lost His compassion somehow? Such that He is no longer moved by compassion to do the kinds of things He did then?

I see no Scriptural grounds for believing that God has lost His compassion. Do you?

Next...notice the reaction of those who saw Jesus raise the man from the dead.

"And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God has visited his people. "

Would any of that have occurred if Jesus had simply consoled the mother with the thought that God would take care of her or that God's will is always good or some such??

I daresay NOT.

What happened is that the young man was raised from the dead! That's what happened.

Which led people to fear in the sense that they were coming in contact with forces beyond themselves and with God! They glorified or gave honor and recognition to God! They acknowledge the visitation of God!

What gives God glory folks?

To have someone remain sick or to have someone be healed?

I mean if God receives glory by someone remaining sick and if Paul is referring to physical sickness when he says that he glories in infirmity (a word incidentally which can mean something other than physical sickness in the Greek) then we might as well, all of us, go find the nearest person with the flu and beg them, BEG them, to cough and sneeze and otherwise get us sick!

Are we not commanded to glory in our infirmities?

Well...let's glory in them! Let's go out and find some and get ourselves sick!

If you think that is silly tell me how that is silly and not perfectly and completely in line with the idea that it is a glory to God to remain sick at times?!

We are commanded to glory in our infirmities (assuming of course that infirmities means physical sickness which I do not believe it does by the way)!

God was glorified by healing! God was glorified by raising the dead! God was glorified by casting out demons!

NOT by having people remain sick. NOT by uttering words of comfort while a dead person was being carried out to be buried.

As I prayed about this all this morning the thought even came to me that perhaps, I say perhaps because I am not entirely sure of this but it makes sense to me, the very idea that God is glorifed through someone remaining sick is a religiously worded excuse for our lack of willingness to believe God to heal.

Instead of admitting our hardness of heart and slowness to believe we describe our unbelief in religiously acceptable excuses that sound good.

God is glorified through some folks remaining sick we say.

That's not biblical! At least not by what I read about how God was truly glorified!

Quite frankly, based on what I read in the Word, such a belief is just...well...silly.

Carlos

Carlos wrote:

"Secondly people continue to go on and on in some cases about their experiences, about this or about that...that really have no bearing on what the Word actually says. My interest is in what the Word SAYS. To first uncover what IT says and then evaluate our experiences in light of that."
--------------------------------------

But you see, that's the problem. The Word is not 100% clear on this issue, which is why there is controversy. The Word does not say that it is never God's will that someone be sick. Some people try to infer this from various passages; others say that this cannot be inferred.

Believe me, there are teachers I respect very much who come down on opposite sides of this issue. And I guarantee that they are studying scripture and not just working from experience.

I have come full circle on this topic; in my early Baptist background the topic never came up. Everyone prayed for healing "if it is Your will" and let it go at that.

Then more recently I went the more charismatic route (but NEVER "WOF") and believed that God wants us well and if someone is sick it is not God's doing. But now I have settled in between somewhere. I cannot conclusively state that it is never God's will that a person be sick. This is because, as J-i-G mentions, there are millions of starving and sick children in various parts of the world and while a person may argue God did not CAUSE this he also does not seem to be PREVENTING it and to me there is no legitimate distinction.

However, like I said, I ALWAYS assume that God wants a person well and I pray accordingly. I don't let thoughts like "maybe it isn't God's will" to enter my mind. Because I think in the great majority of cases it IS God's will that health is better than sickness.

And i agree with Psalm1 that we should be commanding sickness to leave and not just pray that it leaaves. But that is another topic.

Quote;"Though it's not so unfair. Especially if Billy Graham were making the claims about salvation that are being made about healing and the will of God.

Money where your mouth/faith is boys!"

It is God's will for all to be saved.

It is God's will for all to be healed.

However under your logic the following is true;
I knew a man that did not get saved so he is obviously glorifying God in his lost condition.

A person requests salvation and we need to figure out if it is God's will?

Hi TMK,

You seem like an agreeable fellow (I assume you are a man though I suppose I could be mistaken). Let me ask you...

You said...

However, like I said, I ALWAYS assume that God wants a person well and I pray accordingly. I don't let thoughts like "maybe it isn't God's will" to enter my mind. Because I think in the great majority of cases it IS God's will that health is better than sickness.

Is assumption a valid basis for faith?

If it is not then ought you to be praying for something that you cannot possibly believe with the certainty of faith?

If in the great majority of cases it is God's will that health is better than sickness, but NOT in ALL cases, then on what basis can you pray for anyone's healing at all?

Since by your own confession you are not SURE that it is the WILL of God to heal the person you are praying for specifically?

I am not picking on you TMK. Rather I am asking questions that came to mind as I read what you said.

Carlos

Please do tell me Jesus-is-God...

Give me one verse, just one, that clearly shows it to be a glory to God that someone remain sick. That some man of God prayed for someone's healing, the healing did not occur, and people all up and glorified God exclaiming that God is present in the non-healing type of thing.

Out of the New Testament if you don't mind since what happened under the Old is not always in line with how God would want us to operate under the New.

Yet if you feel a need to quote an Old Testament verse by all means please do.

I am eager to hear of such a verse though I am not aware of a single one anywhere that would support such a thing.

Carlos

Matthew 4:24
And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Matthew 8:16
When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

Matthew 9:35
And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Matthew 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Matthew 12:15
But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Matthew 14:14
And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

Matthew 15:30
And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Does anyone at this point believe God wants people sick?

Quote by Carlos;
God is glorified through some folks remaining sick we say.

That's not biblical! At least not by what I read about how God was truly glorified! "

You hit the nail on the head.

It is a slam dunk that God is glorified not by sickness but rather by miracles.

When John the Baptist had a crisis of faith,what did Jesus verify himself with?

Luke 7:22
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

It seems to me that religion throws in the towel when someone is not healed.

Now obviously God does not throw in the towel.

We are a weak body.The church has forsaken miracles and has so distanced herself through paranoia that we might be false prophets or whatever,that the mountain of scriptures on healing as the heart of God must be explained away as.. (fill in the blank here)

Good verses Psalm1 (gosh I should have perhaps picked a more spiritual sounding name than...well...carlosBCG LOL)!

If what God wants is an indication of His WILL and if what Jesus DID is indicative of what His WILL is then no...there is absolutely no support whatsoever by what Jesus did to believe that God wants anyone to remain sick.

I mean Jesus would have surely robbed God the Father of glory by healing ALL if it was God's WILL that someone remain sick!

Jesus would have certainly been in error to commission his disciples and give them authority to heal ALL just as He had been doing IF it was the Father's WILL that some remain sick.

But the fact of the matter is that Jesus healed ALL who came to Him for healing.

And He commanded his disciples to likewise heal.

That IS what it says.

Any belief that contradicts what Jesus actually did in healing ALL goes against the expressed WILL of God in Christ (unless anyone can show me a verse which would explain how God has changed His WILL, compassion, or is otherwise predisposed to leave someone sick these days).

Carlos

Well put psalm1!

I like what you say about distancing ourselves from miracles through paranoia.

It's like Satan comes along and says to himself...

Let's see how can I prevent believers from taking hold of God to do what Jesus did?

I know...I'll go so far off into error (i.e. WOF and prophet stuff where prophets keep making wrong predictions) that the church will throw the baby out with the bath water!

Carlos

Hmm...never heard of Jacob's hip in connection with this issue. I'll have to think and seek the Lord on that one some I think.

Thanks.

By the way I have no clue what :op is.

Carlos

Maybe "BCG" stands for Big Conversational Guy!

Nah. Those are the initials to my other names. I have four having been born in a South American country and having a first name (Carlos), middle name, last name (which is my dad's), and my mother's maiden name.

Carlos

Psalm1 wrote:

"If in the great majority of cases it is God's will that health is better than sickness, but NOT in ALL cases, then on what basis can you pray for anyone's healing at all?

Since by your own confession you are not SURE that it is the WILL of God to heal the person you are praying for specifically?

I am not picking on you TMK. Rather I am asking questions that came to mind as I read what you said."

I certainly understand what you are saying, and in fact i was reviewing some older posts of mine on this topic from another forum from a couple os years ago and I was saying the same thing!!

But I have come to realize that I cannot choose to agree with a statement (it is always God's will to heal") simply so that I can have absolute faith. That, to me is playing games, because I cannot with absulute certainty agree with that statement. I would like to believe it, and I have tried to believe it in the past, but now I cannot in good conscience state that I KNOW this to be certain.

However, when the topic is healing, my role model is Jesus. The verses you quoted establish why this is. And I do know that Jesus is the perfect representation of the Father. But yet there is a mystery, because fro whatever reason God allows sickness and suffering.

And I suppose that brings us something of a side issue-- Assuming it IS God's will that everyone be healed, it does not translate into His protecting Christians from sickness in the first place, since Christians are as susceptible to getting sick as is anyone else. So the atonement guarantees that Christians will be healed after they get sick, but provides no guarantee that they will be immune to getting sick. What is God's thinking here?

I am not entirely certain that the atonement provides for healing as it provides for forgiveness yet.

So that is a separate issue for me. One well worth discussing mind you but I am just saying that I am not certain of that yet.

But I would like to hone in on something you said...

You said...

But I have come to realize that I cannot choose to agree with a statement (it is always God's will to heal") simply so that I can have absolute faith.

I agree that one cannot chose to believe a statement just so they can have absolute faith.

I mean the question is rather whether the statement is true or not. Not whether we are going to chose to believe it or not though that is certainly relevant but secondary to whether the statement is true or not.

If it is true then faith is a matter of believing it to be true and acting accordingly.

Do you actually believe that it is God's WILL to heal ALL who come to Him by faith for a healing?

Do you believe that is true?

I am not asking whether you are willing to act in faith on that...at least not directly. I am asking you if you believe that is TRUE and biblical?

Carlos

Gal 6:11

JIG, I am not sure I would agree with you on this verse.

To interpret letters (gramma) to mean individual characters such as alpha, beta, gamma, etc. would be to remove this verse from the context of what Paul is saying as well as to make that the one and only place in the entirety of the New Testament where that word is translated to mean individual characters.

Paul's context is that the letter he just wrote the Galatians is large in its boldness and impact. It is the most in your face and hard hitting letter we have from Paul.

Of the 15 times this word is used in the New Testament, all of the other 14 are very clearly, by context, speaking of a writing, as in a letter, bill, or in a few cases the letter of the law meaning the entirety of the OT law. Six of these instances were also penned by Paul. To try to force the meaning of individual characters of the Greek alphabet is, I think, inconsistent with the remainder of Paul's writings.

But I am not sure that is really the point. I don't think that pointing to a person's sickness is any commentary on whether or not it is always God's will to heal the sick. If it is God's will to heal me, it would be God's will regardless of whether or not I am able to experience healing. I have many friends and acquaintances who are lost. It remains God's will that they be saved regardless of whether or not they ever accept by faith what He has done for them.

Addendum: It would not be a commentary on God's will to heal unless we adopted such a view of the sovereignty of God that we believed that anything that happens in this physical world must pass through His approval before it takes place. I don't think that view of the sovereignty of God is consistent with what I see in scripture. In other words, I believe such a view of sovereignty is an extreme that goes beyond scripture. I guess this is why I said that this discussion must also center around sovereignty because certain conclusions are dependent upon how you see the sovereignty doctrine.

Please understand that I am NOT going into a cal/arm debate, but only making an observation. Such a view of sovereignty would logically lead to a belief that only certain who are chosen can be born again if one is consistent with this view. But it seems to me that scripture is very clear that it is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Yet many perish. God has asked us to obey Him. So, it is entirely possible to disobey. Yet to disobey is to exercise our will in such a way that God's will is forgone by our choice.

In many of the cases of healing in the NT we find Jesus speaking of the faith of a person as either a determining factor or even the determining factor in whether the healing was manifested or not. In fact, Jesus was prevented from healing because of the unbelief of the people.

So it seems we have a lot to say about whether or not healing is manifested. So, even if it is God's will to heal every time, that does not mean that the healing will happen. This means that we cannot point to the experience of any man and use it to prove or even justify our belief in whether or not it is always God's will. We can only use these examples to prove that all sick people are not automatically healed.

JIG. I am sorry if I implied it was your personal interpretation. I don't think I can agree with A.T. Robertson on that scripture. I think we so often bring our own bias into our interpretation. I think Robertson is inconsistent with the remainder of scripture by forcing such an interpretation. However, he would not be inconsistent with his bias if he used the idea that Paul's thorn was bad eyesight into his interpretation.

As to Paul's thorn, your quoted a scripture earlier that is a commentary on that verse alongside Paul's very explicit statement of exactly what the thorn was.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The thorn was the messenger (angelos) of satan to buffet him. This is not bad eyesight. This is demonic buffeting, demonic opposition. Yet God gave him grace to overcome and persevere despite this demonic opposition.

2Co 11:17-29
(17) That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
(18) Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
(19) For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
(20) For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.
(21) I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
(22) Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.
(23) Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
(24) Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
(25) Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
(26) In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
(27) In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
(28) Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
(29) Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

It did not matter where Paul went, he suffered great persecution and opposition. It was the demonic opposition that buffeted (knocked around and beat up) Paul.

The phrase about plucking out the eyes is used in the same context as I might say, "I would give my right arm for you." I think the idea that Paul's thorn was poor eyesight is inconsistent with Paul's own statement about what his own thorn was, and is based on very circumstantial evidence that seems to me weak and out of context at its best.

However, I know that this view has been predominant among many many denominations, teachers, and theologians. I think we really must strive to allow the word to speak for itself lest we read into the word one of our own ideas rather than allowing our ideas to be conformed to the word.

Please don't think any offense was intended.

God bless you sister.

Hi twayneb.

Re: twayneb wrote ///The phrase about plucking out the eyes is used in the same context as I might say, "I would give my right arm for you."///

If Paul did not have bad eyesight why did Tertius have to write the epistle of Romans for Paul??

it was stated

If Paul did not have bad eyesight why did Tertius have to write the epistle of Romans for Paul??

Surely no one is suggesting that others base their belief in this area on that?!?

As you may know several of the New Testament documents were recorded by people as they were dictated to them. It was not uncommon.... however... as far as eyesight being the reason Paul used a helper is without any foundation at all.

For all we know he may have had a tired hand from making tents all day. We have no idea exactly why Paul did it.

To use it for that reason is proof texting at the absolute worst. I am sure you know better than that and would never allow that of someone else in making a point.

Anyone want to answer at least these 2 yet???

1. In the Gospels is there ever even one time Jesus told someone who came to Him in faith that He did would not heal them?

2.Is there even one time in the Gospels or Acts that Jesus said that He wanted a follower of His to be sick or diseased to teach them a lesson or learn something?

Well.....

Jig-

It seems you have your mind made up and are not willing to consider anything that does not line up with what you currently understand in this area.

You share 2 Cor 11:30 as a proof. Simply read the entirety of the verses proceeding it and you will see Paul defines specifically what he is referring to. It is not sickness or disease. Paul tells you exactly what it is... never mentioning sickness or disease.

In addition.. since you enjoy word studies do one on "messenger of satan". You will find it to be greek "angelos" same word we translate as angel or messenger. It is ALWAYS an angel or messenger. It is NEVER A SICKNESS OR DISEASE. Unless a person believes the Arch Angel Michael, Gabriel, and every other Godly angel or satanic demon are not entities but actually a sickness or disease then you can't believe so here. A demon is not a flu virus. It is a demonic entity that was specifically sent to "buffet", that is strike repeated blows. Be honest enough to do a mapping of all Paul's journeys and you will see this is what happens. It just honestly means what is says... no gymnastics of interpretation needed to understand it

sorry..no sarcasm intended.

Other things- it is certainly beyond certainly that Paul was sick. Virtually impossible.

Thanks for posting the references about the "messenger" of satan.

As you can see... it is always an entity. An angel, or messenger.

It is NEVER a sickness or disease. Not in a single one of those scriptures.

Obviously this is not a sickness or disease. It is an entity. It is a demon. If you have the definitions in front of you then you certainly know that.

Any thought on this yet?

1. In the Gospels is there ever even one time Jesus told someone who came to Him in faith that He did would not heal them?

2.Is there even one time in the Gospels or Acts that Jesus said that He wanted a follower of His to be sick or diseased to teach them a lesson or learn something?

"He took her by the hand. And immediately the fever left her."
\t Mark 1:31

It is not illegitimate to allow our minds to pass from the fevers of the body to the fevers of the soul. Indeed, that is one of the authorised ways when we seek to interpret the miracles of the Lord. The Saviour's miracles are the outer and visible types of inner and greater wonders. They are done in the body in order that we may infer the deeper emancipations of the spirit. Is not this the teaching of the Lord? "That ye may know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins." (Then saith He to the sick of the palsy), "I say unto thee, Rise, take up thy bed and walk." That is to say, "I will liberate a paralysed body that ye may know that I am able to liberate a paralysed soul." And the latter deliverance is the greater of the two. Therefore, do I say that it is legitimate for our thoughts to pass from the fevers which consume the body to the deadlier fevers which consume the soul. Let us consider one or two examples.
There is the fever of impatience. Our spirits can become very heated in the exacting experience of having to wait for something which is long in appearing. We may lose the coolness of a calm self-control. It is the evidence of great strength of character when we can quietly wait the coming of a tediously slow event. Waiting is in some ways a higher attainment than walking, as walking may be a higher attainment than running. Waiting may be the revelation of very impressive strength. We see it in the wonderful patience of the Master as He says, "Mine hour is not yet come." He refused to be rushed. His temper was not flurried. He was cool, and serene, and assured. He waited for the appointed time. He would not move until the hour had struck.
But the majority of us get hot with impatience when the waiting is long drawn out. We want to be "doing something." And the feverish spirit affects all our powers unhealthily. Our faculties become like plants in an overheated greenhouse, and they wilt and droop. And what is the remedy? I find it in an Old Testament promise: "He that believeth shall not make haste"-he shall not get into a fuss. Belief in God holds the soul in a quieting and strengthening communion with God. We feel the cooling hand of the Master, and the perilous heats die out of our souls.
And there is the fever of fretfulness. The very word "fret" is significant of destruction. It is closely akin to the word "friction," and it carries the same suggestion of something which is consuming a precious thing. The rubbing of two things together produces heat. The dry axle of a railway carriage, as it revolves, creates a perilous heat. The dry ball-bearings of a bicycle create friction and thereby engender heat. And all this comes from a lack of soothing, smoothing oil. And so it is in the soul. Fretfulness is the dry grinding of one thing against another. The mind is grinding against circumstance. It may be that the circumstance is a thing of yesterday, and we fret about it. Or it may be a thing of to-day, or it may be a thing of to-morrow. And we rub against it in fretfulness and worry, and we are rubbing all the time. And we get hot and feverish, and in the deadly fire many precious things are consumed. We need the cooling touch of the Lord. The axle does not need to cease its motion in order to keep cool; it only needs oil. And when our souls have the unction of the Holy One the movements of our life are eager, but they are not feverish. We can live and labour without any perilous heat. We trust, and we are not afraid.

The Friend on the Road
J. H. Jowett

Hi Solomon101,

Is there ever a need for any kind of medication??

I am very much a believer in the Healing Power of God, I think way to many Christians today are to much like King Asa when it comes to there personal health problems but I also do not want to be like Jobs friends and condem those whom Have Health issues. I have personaly known Men very much intune with Gods Spirit and very much possessed gifts of healing. But I also know that there have been some very Godly men that have had seriouse Health issues.

Sister,

I am glad you mentioned our brother Paul. Recently while preaching the Gospel one of the hearers asked if I was okay because I looked very sick. Indeed I was afflicted but it was surely God's will.

Consider Paul's Word

"Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead"

To willingly embrace affliction, to pick up the cross, in accordance with the will of the Father, is how the power of God is made manifest.

Many seek to be healed of their infirmities without considering the will of the Father. It is true that

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Sister I know you have been afflicted, and I believe you and I can both say confidently with our brother Job to those who do not understand these things.

"You speak as one of the foolish women would speak. Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?"

I love you very much in the Lord and I desire your prayers. God has called me to minister in a very dark but promising field, please pray for me that I would boldly proclaim the Word of God.

In Love,

Travis

I am praying the Lord would send me to Saudi Arabia. Right now I am ministering to the youth at a local college. Either way I need prayer.

The Lord has spoken this word to me.

"If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me".

This must be done daily as well.

:-) I'm smiling because I perceive a mother's love in your worry. Very blessed and cheered by that!

If I don't see you in this world, I will see you at the throne!!!

One more beautiful Word from God for us to consider tonight, from the Prophet Isaiah.

"He made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me a polished arrow; in his quiver he hid me away".

May the Lord give you a spirit of revelation
to search out the unfathomable riches in Christ!

Brother, I was hoping and praying you would post. May the Lord bless you in your servant hood.

I am, Lord willing, meeting with a representative from a missionary society this fall. However, it may be several years till I am able to spy out the land. In some countries the door is open to those who come to work or as students. Currently I am working on a Master's degree and my college has a campus on the Arab Gulf. Moreover, I am getting a technical degree that is in high demand in Industry and in Business. I am purposely being somewhat vague in that the agency I am in contact with encourages us to be wise in our internet communications in order to avoid unnecessary resistance. Brother, I think the word the Lord has for you and me to encourage us comes from the Gospel.

"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes".

So let us strengthen our feeble knees and not grow weary in our service!

Blessings in Christ,

Travis

Wonderful!!!

I am going to try, by the grace of God, to check the forum here regularly as school and work, and most importantly the Lord, permits. I will send you a quick email now so that you can add me to your contacts.

May the Lord send more workers into His harvest!

."

i dont want to start anything ,,it seems this thred has neary run its corse ,,and the love towards the end is evedent ,praise god

one think we do no ,is god can kill ,and he can infict sickness as a chastisment ,,,,so all the faith in the world for healing or raising he dead when it was gods will to kill or make sick ,would be in vain

fear him who after he has killed is able to cast in to hell
fear him i say ,,,jesus said someing to that effect

paul spoke of those who becasue of there taking the bread and wine in a unworthy manner ,became sick ,and many died ,,this was judment as a form of chastisment

so gods sovern will was to make sick and take bodliy life away from many

so the bible does undoubtly teach that it is not gods will to heal all believers ,,but just the opasite is evedent

and if it was in these cases his will to kill the body and make sick believing prayer would be againsts gods will

we see also anais and sapriase were killed by the will of gods through peter ,for lieing to the holy spirit ,and keep back part of the money from there land

the sorcerer bar jesus was by gods will and spirit made blind by paul

i agree with jesus is god (ANE)on this

just the scriptual fact that timothey had sickness in his stomick,and paull prescibed wine ,is enough to prove that healing timothey was not gods will

i am not going to say it was gods will to heal timothey ,but paull went againts gods will , ,,that is the implcation of the word of faith doctrine

paull was wrong and iam right

sorry i wont do that

blessings

TMK said: "There will be 10 pages of responses and no one will change their minds."

Well, there are now more than 10 pages.

Anyone who has changed their mind, please raise your hand.

proudpapa

If Paul did not have bad eyesight why did Tertius have to write the epistle of Romans for Paul??

The point is that we cannot use this type of reasoning in establishing our doctrine. In doing so we must suppose that a thing happened when we have no direct statement that it did happen.

JIG: The term "infirmities" is used in cases where the writers are speaking of sicknesses or diseases, and it is also used to refer simply to human weaknesses. The meaning is determined by the context. To borrow from Ken Ham, "In my day it used to take a day to drive across the outback during the day." Three distinct and different uses of the word that are contextually determined. In 2 Cor. 12 Paul contrasts his infirmities with God's power. The context suggests weakness rather than sickness. In the case of Timothy and the wine the context indicates chronic physical problems rather than weakness.

But the question that we are dealing with has little or nothing to do with whether a person in scripture ever suffered with a sickness or a disease. God's will, in these cases, is not determined by our experience. We live in a fallen world. We will battle sickness just as we battle temptation and sin. Our mortal bodies will eventually, barring the intervening return of the Lord, run down and cease to function due to the corruption of sin in our flesh. But that fact would not mean that it was not God's will that all be healed. So, what we must consider is the question, does scripture indicate that it is always God's will to heal the sick and the opposite question, does scripture anywhere teach that it is God's will that a person be sick?

The "angel" ... "Buffeted" Paul and 'Buffet' is defined in the previous posts as "to strike with the fist".

The flesh is involved wherever that word "buffet" is used.

This is much like what happened to Job. Satan inflicted Job's body. What GOD allowed. How you believe that it is "NEVER" a sickness ... "Jesus Christ, the same Yesterday, today and forever" ... see Job chts 1, 2 ...

Paul prayed three times....

The problem with using Job is, I think, the difference in covenants. One ancillary question that must be considered is whether healing is provided for in the atonement. We really must answer that question as part of the answer to the original question. Job did not have the atonement. So, in my opinion, Job is outside of the parameters of the discussion as he lived in a different covenant. It is not that we cannot learn a lot from Job, but I don't think his example is valid in discussing whether it is now always God's will to heal every sickness.

This topic interest me a lot because I have a lot of health problems. I so want to be healed and have claimed scriptures, faith, that Jesus healed all, the faith of the Cananite woman and so on. But yet God seems to be silent. Am I terribly sad--yes. I'm so sad that its so hard to read this thread in its entirety especially since its 11 pages long. I don't even know what to say further.

[by EOS
@learn
I just sent you an email. I forgot to give it a title though, so you might have to check your spam folder.]

Thanks. But can you prayefully ask Greg whether he will be willing to host it in sermonindex or to put the links in this thread. THis is because I'm not the only one here that has health problems and would like to be healed. Am asking on behalf of all the others.

post reedited.

I should never have post in this thread. I apologize.

QUOTE;"This topic interest me a lot because I have a lot of health problems. I so want to be healed and have claimed scriptures, faith, that Jesus healed all, the faith of the Cananite woman and so on. But yet God seems to be silent. Am I terribly sad--yes. I'm so sad that its so hard to read this thread in its entirety especially since its 11 pages long. I don't even know what to say further."

I have a few things to tell you.
1) It is extremely difficult to pray for healing for yourself.
Note I did not "impossible"

You apparently have been afflicted for some time and the enemy has lied to you.Faith is what moves God.

Try doing something different.Instead of being sad(a choice) choose to be happy. Speak directly to the infirmity.Call it a trespasser and you will not put up with it's trespassing the temple of God(your body).

Read the healing scriptures but don't claim them,instead proclaim them over your body.Soon you will "own them".

2) try to find a church that beleives God still heals.
Get a group or even one believer to pray"14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."

Read these verses to them before they pray for you and ask them "Now,what will happen when you pray for me?"

If they cannot say "you will be totally healed because God does not lie to his children,then find another group to pray.

3) Realize healing is your property through inheritance.
Note mat 15;
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Do you see that? Healing belongs to you.It is your right and property.
Look at this scripture;
Luke 11;
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

If you are born again you have a great inheritance and a right to you fathers stores.

Faith is not what you think it is.Faith says there is no other way.Faith says you cannot possibly be "not healed"
Faith says that/those infirmities are lies.

SOOOO........ what is the problem?
Could be a few things.
Could be sin
Could be demons
Could be unforgiveness
Could be lack of faith
Could be you defrauded someone.
Could be..........a million things.

Know for a FACT the Holy Spirit will show you what to do.
My little post is just a guide to bring hope to you,and to reveal avenues you have not pursued.

I am going to stand in faith for you today.
I also am facing some major heath issues from internal injuries.
I am not going to pray for myself today,instead I will stand for you.Just know in your heart those infirmities WILL LOOSE. They will go down like all the others.(Remember ole Goliath)

I believe as I pray for your wholeness I will receive mine
:) :) :)

Alrighty then...LOL

I'm back for another wonderful day of sharing and discussion about this topic. I love meaningful discussion centered on the things of God! Absolutely love it.

I have a fair bit to share so you all will have to forgive me if I share what is on my heart to share about this in various posts. It will make for easier reading and responding.

First off I would like to make an observation. It seems to me that some of you on this thread are prone to believing what you are going to believe no matter what is said in the Word contrary to your present belief.

The Lord touched my heart through a verse this morning that speaks to that I think. Here it is...

John 17:20 (AKJV)

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me. And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.

Unity of thinking on this and other issues is SO important!

Last night a couple of people who professed to be Christians, I say professed because one never knows in these days of easy believism if folks claiming to be Christians really are - at least not until you get to know them, stopped to talk to me. Which was interesting in that I think I can count on one hand the number of times professing believers have EVER stopped to talk to me out in the real world in ALL my 53 years of living!

Anyway...though them stopping was encouraging by the time all was said and done and we left to go our separate ways I was absolutely and completely discouraged.

You see these Christians (I will assume they are for purposes of this thread) did what most Christians do that I ever meet under any circumstances. They got to inviting me to go sit in some building on Sunday and listen to someone tell me what the Word says.

They invited me to "go" to church.

That's all the Christians ever seem to want to do with me.

Never mind getting to know me, hanging out with me, loving on me in some way. It's always them trying to get me into the building and completely ignoring the fact that church is NOT a building!

Anyway I explained to them that I have had trouble going into "church" because my eyes are on the Word and NOT church traditions and that there is always a conflict between religious traditions and what the Word says.

Whereupon they asked me about one such thing and off the top I said "head coverings". They then asked me to read the relevant section of the Word and I went to 1 Corinthians 11.

Through our discussion it came out that they believed that Paul was teaching a spiritual lesson. They spiritualized away whatever Paul taught about a physical and practical head covering with the result that they completely ignored what he said!

When they couldn't refute what I was saying about the practical application of head coverings they just up and cut off the conversation and went their way. No doubt thinking that I was an obstinate nutcase in my interpretation and not seeing the spiritual truth behind the words Paul used.

More disunity.

There is disunity all over the place in the Christian world and even on this thread!

That is THE most discouraging thing that I think I ever encounter among Christians.

I used to think that it was just a matter of getting people to hear truth and that if presented with truth that people would just humble themselves and embrace it.

Sadly I have come to realize that such is not the case.

Even when people are presented with truth, even when their positions are revealed to be untenable...they STICK to what they believe and justify that in whatever way they can!

That's a disgrace!

And a dishonor to God.

Notice what the verses above say in part...

"And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

God has given the Christian glory! God has glorified us to sit at the right hand of God with Christ in the heavenlies. He has exalted us to a coveted position of righteousness and glory. In Christ we are everything that one can be before God by faith. We have everything by faith. Whatever success anyone has in Christ is our success as much as any success that any of the rest of us have is that of others because in the Spirit we are ONE.

There is NO reason to persist in embracing untenable positions of belief. NO reason at all.

But pride and an unwillingness to yield to truth.

Look at what Jesus said in one place...

John 7:16 (AKJV)

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory: but he that seeks his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Our capacity to know truth is directly tied to our willingness to apply it!!

If we say we are willing but do not embrace truth and hang on to untenable positions of belief then we lie and are not willing.

We MUST set aside whatever biases we have on this issue.

Look into your past and ask yourself whether anything in your experience causes you to shy away or to withdraw from a way of looking at this issue because to embrace that way means implications that you are not willing to live with.

If that is you, you MUST get past that unwillingness or you won't even come to see truth in this at all!

I mean you may hear truth but you won't embrace it and will stick to what you believe no matter what. Because you are not willing to embrace it and all it's implications for your life and the lives of those you love.

You won't embrace truth because you are not willing before God to apply it.

And you won't be a part of the solution respecting the need for united thinking. Rather you will be a part of the problem as to why the Christian world is such a disgrace (in my opinion) and do disunited!

We MUST come at truth and seek truth like children!

Where we would as readily admit we are wrong as much as we might like to be right.

Is that your heart attitude?

If not...you need to change.

I am humbled at speaking like this here because I consider many of you to be in positions of being greatly used by God and to be much more mature and seasoned that I am (please be aware that my words in this post do not apply to all of you equally).

I am a nobody. Literally. Both in a wordly sense and spiritually at least with respect to what can be seen out of my life. You would be in shock if I shared with you how much of a nobody I really am.

But if there is one thing I have that the Lord has developed in me over many a time of humbling me it is a willingness to be a nobody. To humbly acknowledge being wrong.

We must all be willing to do that if we are going to unite around truth in this area for the greater honor and glory of the Lord among us.

It seems to me that the longer one goes in life and the more biblical knowledge they accumulate the harder it is to acknowledge being wrong.

But we must admit such a thing and readily so. We must yield to God and to the wisdom of others if they have a better handle on what the Word says than we do.

There is nothing to lose.

We have it all in Christ anyway. Glory and honor and esteem and value. We have it all in Christ and have nothing to lose by admitting that we did not understand something as we ought to have understood it.

We have got to stop the ridiculous nonsense of being like wolves all vying for position and correctness as if there is a lack of position or correctness enough to go around in Christ.

He gave us glory in Christ that we might be one. Think about that.

I'll share more in a minute.

Carlos

QUOTE;"Anyway, I praise God for this privilege to preach among God's people, but I do not wake up with the desire to do so here as I have in so many places. My heart is grieved here, but I do look for and expect a glorious church awakening among true believers here and all around the world. The wait is long, but my confidence is that it will be worth it.

I would love to hear more from you and about how the gospel is received or not through you there.

in His grace,
Mark"

"but I do look for and expect a glorious church awakening among true believers here and all around the world."

This is my hope and expectation also

QUOTE BY CARLOS;"I am a nobody. Literally. Both in a wordly sense and spiritually at least with respect to what can be seen out of my life. You would be in shock if I shared with you how much of a nobody I really am."

Brother,you are not a nobody.Don't compare your worth with other people.Always agree with the word that you are of the household of faith and God's family.

I feel the same way sometimes when I go to business meetings.Mine is so rinky dink and they are almost million aires.

But I am reminded that men are defined by their wealth in the world,but not in God's kingdom.

brothagary on 2012/8/21 0:55:11

"i dont want to start anything ,,it seems this thred has neary run its corse ,,and the love towards the end is evedent ,praise god

one think we do no ,is god can kill ,and he can infict sickness as a chastisment ,,,,so all the faith in the world for healing or raising he dead when it was gods will to kill or make sick ,would be in vain

fear him who after he has killed is able to cast in to hell
fear him i say ,,,jesus said someing to that effect

paul spoke of those who becasue of there taking the bread and wine in a unworthy manner ,became sick ,and many died ,,this was judment as a form of chastisment

so gods sovern will was to make sick and take bodliy life away from many

so the bible does undoubtly teach that it is not gods will to heal all believers ,,but just the opasite is evedent

and if it was in these cases his will to kill the body and make sick believing prayer would be againsts gods will

we see also anais and sapriase were killed by the will of gods through peter ,for lieing to the holy spirit ,and keep back part of the money from there land

the sorcerer bar jesus was by gods will and spirit made blind by paul

i agree with jesus is god (ANE)on this

just the scriptual fact that timothey had sickness in his stomick,and paull prescibed wine ,is enough to prove that healing timothey was not gods will

i am not going to say it was gods will to heal timothey ,but paull went againts gods will , ,,that is the implcation of the word of faith doctrine

paull was wrong and iam right

sorry i wont do that

blessings"

Man,to ignore 500 scriptures on healing and stand in "faith" on 3 obscure extabiblical verses is not exactly faith building.

I want more faith,not less

Here are some other verses that the Lord laid on my heart that touch on this subject...

John 5:36 (AKJV)

But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father has sent me.

Some of you have rightly pointed out that the works (i.e. miracles, healings, etc.) that Jesus did proved that Jesus was God or at least in this verse as sent from the Father.

Absolutely true.

John 10:37 (AKJV)

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you believe not me, believe the works: that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

The works that Jesus did proved that the Father was in Jesus as Jesus was in the Father. One.

Now look at what the following verses say!

John 14:8 (AKJV)

Philip said to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffises us. Jesus said to him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Truly, truly, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father. And whatever you shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I wish this forum had bolding so that I could bold the relevant sections but you will just have to carefully read the verses I have quoted above instead.

Do you all realize what these verses are saying???!

I mean really?!

What were the works Jesus did? Well...everything Jesus did...that's what! Healings, casting out demons, words of knowledge, raising people from the dead, and so on.

They were the works that were done uniquely by Jesus that showed that the Father was in Him as He was in the Father!

WHY do we Christians so easily discount what Jesus said here???!!!

The works that He did WE, WE, WE will be able to do and even greater works!!!!

That includes healings folks!

Anybody disagree with that?

The healings that Jesus did were NOT, NOT, NOT just to prove who He was! They were things that He has given us authority and power to do in His name!

For His glory and the glory of the Father!

John 17:18 (AKJV)

As you have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

We are to be Christ in this world!!!!!

We are His Body!

To do what He did!

Anybody got a problem with my theology on this? If you do you have a problem with God not my theology.

Jesus was in God the Father and the Father was in Him...right? Of course.

Now get this...

John 17:20 (AKJV)

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.

That's talking about US folks.

Jesus and God the Father are one and Jesus is praying that we may be one in them!

Do you realize what that is saying???!

John 17:23 (AKJV)

I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.

God the Father was/is in Jesus. What Jesus did (i.e. the works) testified or gave witness to that fact. Jesus is in US!

God the Father in His fullness has come to reside in each of us who are Christians through Jesus Christ!

To do the things Jesus did and through it all to testify of His Presence in us!

Just as He testified of His Presence in Christ through what Jesus did!!!

It seems to me that the problem with our beliefs is that we are slow to believe and hard of heart.

I mean you all correct my thinking as described in this post but unless I am mistaken there is no question that we can do what Jesus did with respect to healings.

No question at all.

If we are going to accept what Jesus said as true that is.

ALL can get healed through us as His Body just as Jesus healed ALL.

Isn't that what these verses are saying?

This isn't some impractical ultimate will of God. This is as practical as it gets. It is for here and for now.

The question on my heart is NOT whether or not this is so but rather...seeking the Lord on where I am missing it because I do not experience the reality of these words in my life.

It is not these words that are false. It is my life and my beliefs that are suspect and at fault somehow.

Carlos

Psalm1 wrote:

"If in the great majority of cases it is God's will that health is better than sickness, but NOT in ALL cases, then on what basis can you pray for anyone's healing at all?

Since by your own confession you are not SURE that it is the WILL of God to heal the person you are praying for specifically?

I am not picking on you TMK. Rather I am asking questions that came to mind as I read what you said."

I certainly understand what you are saying, and in fact i was reviewing some older posts of mine on this topic from another forum from a couple os years ago and I was saying the same thing!!

But I have come to realize that I cannot choose to agree with a statement (it is always God's will to heal") simply so that I can have absolute faith. That, to me is playing games, because I cannot with absulute certainty agree with that statement. I would like to believe it, and I have tried to believe it in the past, but now I cannot in good conscience state that I KNOW this to be certain.

However, when the topic is healing, my role model is Jesus. The verses you quoted establish why this is. And I do know that Jesus is the perfect representation of the Father. But yet there is a mystery, because fro whatever reason God allows sickness and suffering.

And I suppose that brings us something of a side issue-- Assuming it IS God's will that everyone be healed, it does not translate into His protecting Christians from sickness in the first place, since Christians are as susceptible to getting sick as is anyone else. So the atonement guarantees that Christians will be healed after they get sick, but provides no guarantee that they will be immune to getting sick. What is God's thinking here?"

QUOTE;"Psalm1 wrote:

"If in the great majority of cases it is God's will that health is better than sickness, but NOT in ALL cases, then on what basis can you pray for anyone's healing at all? ""

Where did you find this?
I do not think I wrote that at all.

You didn't write that Psalm1. I did.

When TMK quoted me he must have somehow messed up the quoting such that you ended up seeming to say what I in fact said.

I just left it without saying anything.

Carlos

pslams 1 ,,,,with all respect i dont ignore the scripturs regarding healing ,and i didnt make reference to the parts of scripture about gods will to chastise through sickness and bodly death to harm anyones faith ,,but to show that in some bibical cases gods will is to chastes with sickness ,,brothers were asking for scripture to suport this doctrine

1cor 11

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world

gods will was to chasties with sickness

brothers please for give me for keeping the bible in a full contex

im a big believer in gods power to heal ,, the spirit has led me to exort on a nuber of acaisons , for our feable faith regarding the promises of healing ,,,,but lets not throw out the scripture that is hard to except

brother pslam ,this is not an obsure extra bibical verse

that is a shame to say that about theses verses

its bibical perioud ,and we should blend it with alll the other verses that are relevent to this issue

i am sorry if this causes doubt brother ,,but i know you will sure soilder on in your faith praise god

blessings

Carolos wrote:

"You didn't write that Psalm1. I did.

When TMK quoted me he must have somehow messed up the quoting such that you ended up seeming to say what I in fact said."
________________

Sorry about the misquote guys.

[by JIG
Sister learn, I'm not quite sure what you are upset about but I know that I am as well and I think it's best for me to bottom my lip on this thread as well.

I pray that whatever is bothering you will be brought to Peace .... HIS Peace and nothing that any human being can bring to you but HIM]

Thanks. I will be ok as long as I don't read this thread from now on? May decide to skip this thread altogether.

The Lord touched my heart through some other verses that relate to this topic but I will share them in a minute.

First...I wanted to address the issue of Trophimus being left sick at Miletus by Paul.

The verse in question is this...

2 Timothy 4:20 (AKJV)

Erastus stayed at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

First off the word "sick" is the word astheneō in the Greek (strong's 770).

That word does not ALWAYS mean physical ailment or disease.

Note it's use in the following verses...I have followed the English word with (**) where the underlying Greek word is astheneō

Romans 4:18 (AKJV)

Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall your seed be. And being not weak (**) in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

astheneō is translated "weak" above as in "weak in faith". That has nothing to do with disease.

One more...

1 Corinthians 8:8 (AKJV)

But meat commends us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. But take heed lest by any means this liberty of your's become a stumbling block to them that are weak (**).

astheneō is translated "to them that are weak" om this last verse. Weak in conscience this time. Again nothing to do with disease.

It is clear that astheneō CAN mean something other than a physical weakness that comes from an ailment or disease.

That is absolutely clear.

Now the question becomes did the translators of our English bible's get it right when they translated this Greek word into "sick" in 2 Timothy 4:20?

Young's Literal Translation of the Bible translates this word as "infirm". The same word used to translate what Paul said about glorying in infirmities in 2 Corinthians 11:30 (though the underlying Greek word is different than the one used to describe Trophimus being "sick").

I do not know why translators of our English bible's have predominently translated this word as "sick" in the above verse. That requires a bit more research.

It's possible they got it wrong.

But...REGARDLESS...

Let's assume for a minute that astheneō is correctly translated as being a physical sickness.

What does that tell us regarding the topic of whether it is God's WILL to heal ALL who come to Him for healing today?

Nothing much at all!

Did Paul leave Trophimus sick because he did not have time to get involved in joining the elders of the church, anointing Trophimus with oil, and praying a prayer of faith over him?

Did Trophimus get healed by God the day after Paul left?

Did Paul have a moment of doubt regarding God's WILL to heal ALL?

Was Trophimus being chastised by God through sickness (God DOES use sickness to chastise or discipline His children as seen in 1 Corinthians 11:29-30)?

Was Trophimus unwilling to believe God for healing?

Was it God's WILL to NOT heal Trophimus?

We JUST DON'T KNOW.

The implications of what this verse says is that Paul was not able to heal Trophimus so he left him sick (assuming of course that sick is the right word to translate the underlying Greek).

But does the verse say that Paul was not able to heal Trophimus?

No it does not.

We can make whatever inference we like. We can assume whatever we might want to assume.

But...we should not and absolutely cannot make correct doctrine from inference and assumption!

What is...is. Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus.

That's all we have. Those are the supposed facts.

But that's ALL we know. Nothing more and nothing less.

As such we don't have enough to go on respecting this verse saying anything definitive about this topic.

Carlos

This morning the Lord touched my heart through some verses I read that relate directly to the topic of this thread. And I would like to share what those verses were.

I did not set out to be touched by God about this topic as in seeking Him about it. It just happened.

Acts 14:1 (AKJV)

And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spoke, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed. But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brothers. Long time therefore stayed they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony to the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

What struck me about the above verses was that the signs and wonders that were done through Paul and Barnabas (not just Paul) were done to confirm the word of the Gospel being shared by Paul.

Presumably to confirm it as being true and from God in that if it was not of God, truly of God, then He would not support it as being of Him through signs and wonders which only God could do.

Continuing...

Acts 14:8 (AKJV)

And there sat a certain man at Lystra, weak in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who steadfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on your feet. And he leaped and walked.

What struck me about these verses is this.

2 Corinthians 12:9 (AKJV)

And he said to me, My grace is sufficient for you: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest on me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities,

The above verses are taken by many to be referring to physical ailment or disease.

I believe that is an incorrect interpretation.

Think about it for a minute.

If the infirmities mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:9 are physical ailments or disease would not the cripple spoken of in Acts 14:8 qualify as a man with such an infirmity?

But...instead of Paul leaving room for God's strength to be made perfect through the man's infirmity (i.e. disability), instead of Paul encouraging the man to glory in his infirmity and to take pleasure in it that the power of Christ might rest on this man...what does Paul do?

HE HEALS HIM!!

Did that not rob the man of the glory that Paul says could be had through infirmity in 2 Corinthians 12:9?

Why on earth did Paul heal ANYONE and rob them equally of power and glory?

Such an interpretation of Paul's thorn in the flesh as something to glory in makes absolutely no sense at all.

Was Paul divided in himself? Was he on the one hand preaching and teaching about being content with infirmities (supposedly physical by common interpretation) and even glorying in them and taking pleasure in them while on the other hand HEALING the very same person's that he should have left well enough alone?

Does that make sense to anyone?

Paul and Barnabas were eventually sent to Jerusalem to settle a dispute over whether or not the Gentiles should be made to obey the Law of Moses.

At one point they said the following to the assembled brethren in Jerusalem.

Acts 15:12 (AKJV)

Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles by them.

Miracles and wonders were part and parcel of what Paul and Barnabas DID.

It accompanied their preaching of the Gospel and were used of God to encourage the saints or meet needs in their lives at other times as when Paul raised the young man to life who had fallen out of a window and died.

Continuing...

Acts 19:11 (AKJV)

And God worked special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought to the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Yet more Jesus like miracles and healings.

Acts 28:7 (AKJV)

In the same quarters were possessions of the chief man of the island, whose name was Publius; who received us, and lodged us three days courteously. And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him. So when this was done, others also, which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed:

Still more healings!

Paul sums up his life for Jesus in Romans by saying this...

Romans 15:19 (AKJV)

Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about to Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

In another place Paul is defending his ministry to the Corinthians and says this...

2 Corinthians 12:12 (AKJV)

Truly the signs of an apostle were worked among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

My point in saying all this is that the healings that occurred under Jesus were NOT just to prove that Jesus was God.

They also testified to the truthfulness of the Gospel message. As being of God.

And of being supported by God.

Today we have the Gospel message but we have scant if any evidence that the message we preach is any more true than any number of other religious sounding messages preached by any number of other religious bodies throughout the world.

After thinking about this topic and praying over it I think there can be NO question that it IS the WILL of God, as expressed through Jesus Christ, to heal ALL who come to Him by faith.

It is an awareness of that WILL that forms the basis for having any faith in God at all for a healing.

Without knowing that it IS the WILL of God that ALL be healed there can be NO basis for believing that He will heal us in particular for how can we know with the certainty of faith that he will heal us if we are not convinced that He WILLS to heal all?

We can't.

God the Father in Christ and Christ in God.
Christ in us and us in Christ and God the Father in us through the Holy Spirit.

All one in the spirit.

Doing the works of God and expressing His WILL.

See my previous post on this in this thread if any of that sounds strange to you or unscriptural.

Carlos

I was also asking the Lord about the practical outworking of this.

And here are some thoughts that were laid on my heart.

In any given locale there will always be some folks that believe more readily than others. Even in places such as North America where people seemed more inclined to believe nothing or anything I suppose than truth from God.

If we never preach the WILL of God respecting healing as expressed and seen in Jesus then people will NEVER (short of divine intervention or revelation) have a basis for faith in God to heal.

How can they believe unless they hear and how can they hear unless they are sent type of thing.

But where Jesus is preached and His WILL regarding healing is highlighted in the minds of those hearing SOME will rise up in their hearts with faith to believe what they see in Jesus.

Those SOME will experience healing.

Which will lead others, who may be less inclined to believe, to believe. Which in turn will lead others still less inclined to believe and so on.

Until a place is turned upside down with the Gospel and the power of God in operation to confirm the message of His grace.

This kind of faith building on faith is biblical in that we are all encouraged to stir one another up in the faith by being examples of faith in action.

If I see God work in and through you by faith I will be encouraged to believe God myself.

That type of thing.

The reason we in North America do not experience much of what all these verses say is a multi-faceted problem.

In part, it being God's WILL to heal ALL who come to Him by faith is generally not preached. So no basis for faith.

We are taught from early on in our Christian life both by example and by doctrine that it is okay to pray to God in the hope of this or that.

Prayers of hope are NOT prayers of faith. We are not instructed in the Word to pray to God in hope of this or that. We are taught to be confident of this or that and to pray it into existence by faith in accord with His WILL.

His WILL as revealed in the Word.

That means we can't just name and claim whatever we want. It must be in line with the WILL of God and we must be confident in an awareness of His WILL respecting what we are praying for if we are to pray confidently and with faith to see it happen.

We receive what we believe based on the promises of God that give us confidence to receive what we are praying for.

That is the basis for confidence in being saved and the basis on which we receive anything from God at all. Including healing.

Aside from His WILL respecting this not being generally taught we of a Western mindset have an additional problem.

Our heads. Our general lack of faith. And our inflated attitudes toward what we think is our spirituality.

We are not poor in spirit and broken before God.

Instead we think we are something based on our knowledge of the Word alone in many cases.

Pride rules our hearts. Even in the church.

And pride and faith don't mix anymore than oil and water do.

Even in me I know that my struggle in this is of the same type that I had when coming to Christ through the Gospel.

I know what my head tells me. I know intellectually that there is NO way around the fact that God WILLS to heal ALL as shown in the expression of God's WILL in Christ and in how the Lord entrusted that WILL to be carried out after He rose from the dead by us who remain.

But there is a block inside me. A block of unbelief.

I was praying this morning that God would make me a simpleton if that could lead me to rise up with faith to take hold of what the Word so clearly says about us being able to do the kinds of works that Jesus did.

It remains to be seen if God answers my prayer.

Hopefully faith can rise up from me while I keep my brain.

But if push comes to shove I would rather be a simpleton and have faith than an intelligent man who thinks he knows something of the Word but has very little of any mountain moving faith.

We must preach truth, and in this case truth about the WILL of God respecting healing, and let faith rise up to be healed in those whom God inspires to rise up and believe.

Anyway I wanted to share these additional thoughts for what they are worth.

Carlos

I will share something further the Lord laid on my heart this morning but if there is no more interaction on this thread I will likely let it be.

As it does little good I think for me to just keep talking to myself.

I really do believe that this issue is on God's heart and that He wants to do some amazing things today but alas what He is laying on my heart about this seems to be going nowhere here.

Anyway this morning I read this...

Luke 8:22 (AKJV)

Now it came to pass on a certain day, that he went into a ship with his disciples: and he said to them, Let us go over to the other side of the lake. And they launched forth. But as they sailed he fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled with water, and were in jeopardy. And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm. And he said to them, Where is your faith?

What struck me in these verses was Jesus's question to the disciples.

Where is your faith?

Not where is your faith in me for they had faith in Jesus just by virtue of waking Him up to do something.

But rather where is your faith in God!

Jesus was fully God but He was also fully man. He did not take advantage of the fact that He was God to do the things He did. Rather He modeled a life of faith in God for us!

He constantly tried to get the disciples to act in faith as He Himself did.

Why?

Because they could have.

And so can we.

It has to do with the relationship that we have with God the Father.

Do you realize that in Christ we Christians are as loved by the Father as much as He loved Jesus?

That the Father is as predisposed to help us as He was to help Jesus?

That He is as willing to answer our prayers as He was to answer the prayers of Jesus?

Paul said that it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. Jesus lives in us! To do what He did!

Faith is the key that frees God to operate in and through us as He did through Jesus.

Here is something else that came to me as I prayerfully pondered these things.

People were not healed, in general, unless they exercised faith in Jesus to heal them.

Seeing Jesus and otherwise being around Him while He was on earth did not heal them. Unless they exercised faith to be healed.

If faith was the key then...what has changed since then?

The only thing that has changed as far as I can see is that Jesus is no longer here in bodily form.

But His being here in bodily form or not makes no difference with respect to being healed by faith in Him.

Faith is faith. What we see is what we see. And the two don't mix.

If faith is what it took to unlock the power of God to heal then, faith is the same key that will unlock the power of God to heal today.

We can still come to Jesus just like people did then.

By faith. The only way to come to Jesus that counts with respect to healing.

I'll leave it at that unless anyone cares to keep discussing this.

I don't like being on a thread where I am the only one talking to myself :).

Thanks very much to all who shared their thoughts on this thread!

Carlos

If faith was the key then...what has changed since then

Faith in what? That is the question you must address, and I’m not convinced you have. What did the disciples fail to trust? They had failed to grasp the unshakable truth - that God would fulfill his purpose and promise – and no storm was going to sabotage God’s divine plan for humanity. It wasn’t merely faith in a calmed sea – but a faith in God’s trustworthiness on a far grander scale. And even if they were shipwrecked, that would not have aborted God’s plan. Paul expressed true faith: “I am convinced that neither life not death, nor angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future….. will be able to separate me from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Abraham had true faith in God – and he knew that even the sacrifice of Isaac would not stand in the way.

It is not a merely matter of faith in healing, but of faith in something far grander about God.

Corrie ten Boom tells of a woman she met while visiting a communist country. The woman was crumbled up on the couch with severe Cerebral Palsey. Corrie wondered why God hadn’t healed her. Then her husband pointed out that it was because of her severe debilities that the Communists left them alone. They didn’t think she could cause any trouble. That freed her up to translate several Christian books into her language - laboriously on her typewriter... remaining undetected. Anybody else would be caught and put to death. This couple had faith! And God blessed and used them for his grand purpose.

By that same faith - we are not afraid to suffer and die. And we are not afraid to live - yes, even be healed or not healed - that we may glorify him and serve his purposes.

Diane