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Have miracles ceased?

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sermonindex

Does the New Testament teach that miracles have passed away? Does the New Testament teach that tongues, prophesy, healings, signs, and wonders have passed away with the canon of scripture being established?

I think a discussion should be opened up on this. If the New Testament teaches that signs and wonders have ceased. Let's have a discussion.

I believe many in the forum reject miracles. You must have a scriptural warrant. I am not interested in a debate. Many seem to think miracles are of the devil. So let's talk bout it

I am open. If cessionism is scriptural. Then please state your case. If miracles are of the devil and many seem to believe this. Then please show me from scripture that cessionism is valid. But before I say that miracles have ceased I need to see the scriptural position.

I am going to stand down from this thread I will check again in s day or two. But I really want to hear if there is a valid case for cessionism.

Posted by Bearmaster.

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Miccah

Miracles have not ceased.

We need to make sure that we tell the difference betweent he real and the fake is all.

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sermonindex

Miracles have not ceased.

We need to make sure that we tell the difference betweent he real and the fake is all.

Exactly. I still don't remember anyone on the boards recently saying miracles and the supernatural don't happen these days though...

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SkepticGuy

its hard to think that this has not been discussed on this forum b4. 'bear' doesnt want to debate but the way this is being presented will result in a debate. its being presented as: "this is what i think, this is what i think others think, i think others are wrong, now sum1 try 2 prove me wrong becuz you cant". and this is a strawman anyway becuz i have never seen any1 say miracles and healing dont happen 2day.

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sermonindex

I know John MaCArthur is a faithful expositer of scripture. He has a high regard for the word of God. As I recall he wrote a book entitled The Charismatics. In the book he argues and quite effectively that the sign gifts and miracles have ceased.

I used to hold to a cessionist position. Abandoned it. And now rethinking it. Is MacArthur's position viable? I am still interested what does the New Testament teach n this?

We seem to agree that miracles are seem to be of the evil one. The safest position would be to embrace cessionism again. But seeking for more New Testament scriptures other than what is found in 1 Cor. 13.

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

I know John MaCArthur is a faithful expisitor of scripture. He has a high regard for the word of God. As I recall he wrote a book entitled The Charismatics. In the book he argues and quite effectively that the sign gifts and miracles have ceased.

But he's wrong. I have yet to see a cessationist come up with any Scripturally faithful, contextual, historical, and exegetical evidence with any merit, but hey, people will want to believe what they want to believe.

In response to "Charismania" he's taken the opposite extreme. Both are wrong.

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sermonindex

So Skeptic. I am open. What fo you say? What is your understanding of this. Play ball. Not the man. Dialogue. What do you believe the scriptures teach on this?

Can you not exhibit a Berean spirit and ask what sayith the Lord.

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

But you are speaking of a highly respected teacher of scripture. Certainly there must be some credibility to his position.

Bear.

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sermonindex

But you are speaking of a highly respected teacher of scripture.

I've not slandered him personally, only disagreed with his assertion. He's a good teacher on many things, and I agree with most of the stuff I've seen him say (though I haven't gone much into his writings). On this issue he's mistaken though.

It's almost 3am here, and I don't have the energy tonight to get into it, but I'll come around again tomorrow, or whenever I get the chance.

Play ball. Not the man. Dialogue. What do you believe the scriptures teach on this? Can you not exhibit a Berean spirit and ask what sayith the Lord.

I've noticed you're a bit quick to load other brothers' and sisters' mouths with sentiments and opinions they've not stated. I'll make no issue of it, as it doesn't really bother me, and I'll say no more from this point, but as a friendly admonition to use a bit of caution, sooner or later you're going to run across someone on here who will not like having their intentions dictated back to them inaccurately, and they might not handle it well. I don't think your accusation lines up with what SkepticGuy intended. People are not going to desire dialogue or any Berean searching with you if they think you're going to continue to take their thoughts, words, and ideas out of context and accuse them of things they're not saying/thinking/doing.

Just an observation, bro. Cheers!

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SkepticGuy

So Skeptic. I am open. What fo you say? What is your understanding of this. Play ball. Not the man. Dialogue. What do you believe the scriptures teach on this?

you seem 2 think i attacked u or sumthing. not a'tall. just thought ur presentation invited debate when u said u did not want to debate. what do i believe the scriptures teach? u are making the assumption i believe the scriptures. if they be true then there is a valid argument to be made for both sides. if they be wrong then it doesnt really matter.

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sermonindex

Thanks bro. Take the admonition to heart. God's rest be on you.

Bear.

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sermonindex

So you do not believe the scriptures are true? You need to clarify your last post.

Bearmaster.

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jimp

hi, i have seen many miracles in my christian lifetime and i do not care who said they have ceased ... they are still many occurring daily.i would like to retell a story of a dear friend named gene who had a surgery that removed three ribs and his left lung from his body... as his right lung was filling with t. b. , he submitted as an unbeliever to prayer for healing. after being prayed for he felt air enter into his chest... he went home and when he took off his shirt the scar from the surgery was gone... he called dr. byers and went into see what was going on... dr. byers exrayed his chest and the ribs were back in genes body as was a new lung and the other lung was clean of t b ... this was investigated by the fbi for it was printed in a magazine as a testimony and found to be truth. they had the before and after xrays.jimp

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ccchhhrrriiisss

No, I know from both Scripture and personal experience that miracles have not ceased. The Lord has done so many miraculous things in my life...many of which I strive to avoid boasting of (because these things are from the Lord, by the Lord for His glory).

At the same time, I feel a very real need to test any claims or words that are attributed to God or the supernatural. I also know that we are not to become engrossed in such things but to seek the One who does them. I think that any believer wouldn't care about such a "test" or scrutiny that is done in truthfulness of heart and good faith.

I do not find any passage in Scripture that indicates that miracles -- which are only "miraculous" from our perspective -- were only for a certain time period. I have heard messages regarding cessation, but I cannot find any scriptural basis for their claims. And, of course, we see the Lord moving all around us...each and every day.

If the Lord answers prayers, there are no varying stages of "miracle." If the Lord provides food, clothing, house or a job, there is no variation in whether or not it was "miraculous" or not. If a person has a dream, vision or mere "wooing" of the Holy Spirit as God leads, it is all the same God "miraculously" moving the heart.

We cannot afford to place God in a box. I remember hearing a believer who attended a church where cessation was taught almost as a fundamental view (and was a required belief of active members). Yet, this believer would pray for the sick and for other miracles. He told me that, even though he was skeptical, it doesn't hurt to sincerely ask the Lord to move on the behalf of His creation.

When I was a teenager, I visited a church that my oldest sister attended a church in the Dallas area. A man in the church shared a testimony about his teenage daughters (well, they were teenagers when this event happened). They were at a function with their youth group. When everyone was leaving that night, they were chatting with the youth pastor and his wife. The youth pastor and his wife watched them get into their car and then drove off.

However, the girls' car wouldn't start. The girl sitting in the driver's seat would turn the key and not hear anything. This happened before cell phones became so common. Then, they noticed two men approaching them in the dark, empty parking lot. They were afraid, locked the doors and kept trying to start it. One girl started praying aloud. When the men were nearly to the car, the car finally started. The girls quickly peeled out of the parking lot and drove home.

When they were home, they were in tears. They told their parents what happened. The parents prayed with their daughters and thanked God for his protection.

The next morning, the dad wanted to know what was wrong. It was an old car, so he was worried about the girls driving it. So, he went out into their garage (where their car was parked) and popped the hood. He was shocked to notice that there was no battery.

They felt that the men in the parking lot may have seen the girls, stole the battery after they went inside and waited around for them to leave. Regardless, it was quite miraculous that God had started their car when it didn't have a battery.


Acts 2:17-21

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


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deltadom

No

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sermonindex

If someone says that miracles have ceased, it's up to them to prove that is the case since there is no scripture that says and supports this.

So for those who say miracles have ceased, how do you come to this conclusion from Gods Word?

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SkepticGuy

So you do not believe the scriptures are true? You need to clarify your last post.

no clarification is needed. i never stated what i believe becuz in the long run truth is not dependent upon what i believe or what u believe. i simply said if the bible is true then there are valid arguments on both sides. if not then it doesnt matter. this dicussion and many others like it are about topics that have been argued since bible times and they have never been settled. they will not be settled here. if more people realized that then perhaps there would be less arguing among you.

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jimp

hi skeptic, you need not worry for as a skeptic you will never see a miracle for 10 could be happening in your life now and you would not know it because you are a skeptic. you must have someone on the scene with faith and trust.Jesus is the same... yesterday ,today and forever and He is the miracleworker.jimp.any conversion from condemnation to eternal zoe life is the greatest miracle.

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SkepticGuy

that does not answer the question or settle the issue though jimp. u made it about me. u were probably dodge ball champion at ur high school :-)

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MrBillPro

Naw, miracles do exist, I woke up this morning, to me personally that's a miracle.There are two ways to live, you can live as if nothing is a miracle, you can live as if everything is a miracle. :)

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sermonindex

If miracles have ceased, so has God; for it would imply that somehow He lost His power, and His desire to affect the affairs of men. Of course, He has not.

Often, unspiritual men filled with unbelief have warred against Spirit Filled faith, for in admitting the reality of it, condemns their own lack of power, and relationship with God, and they must kill it, or lose their standing as men of authority.

"Therefore the chief priests and the Pharisees convened a council, and were saying, “What are we doing? For this man is performing many miracles.

" If we let Him go on like this, all men will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.”....

.....and so it goes today with those without power, or those who despise those who have it.

This is my testimony about an event that happened in my life.

"Miracles have not ceased."
"We need to make sure that we tell the difference between the real and the fake is all." EverestOSama

What greatness matters?
CRUCIFIED WITH CHRIST YET ALIVE, YET NOT I!

I think the greatness of the man must always begin and end here; Preaching or leading or ministry of any kind, is simply Christ imparted, and that is impossible without living a crucified life; It is the only life that exudes true holy power.

This scripture below describes the Apostolic command received, and shows what an Apostolic Preacher really does. It seems to be a far cry from what the more modern, pulpit based preachers of the this age do.

"And as ye go, PREACH!, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

True great preaching is always accompanied by true and undeniable power; in the New Testament, they are inseparable, dynamic, and apparent. The local assemblies seem to abide in this consciousness as the norm.

In 1996 I travelled to India with a 5 man team doing platform evangelism, with crowds of 1500-5000 all across the south of that country. It was a lot of fun, along with the usual warfare, and we were victorious wherever we went.

After the preaching, we had great buckets of olive oil, and we sloshed our arms and hands in it,and we travelled into the crowds and laid hands for healing on whoever wanted it. These were always the poorest of people, and they received and believed us.

Here, I experienced "the press", where people would literally mob you, and carry you along to the left or the right. You just had to go with the flow. and also witnessed the demon possessed, the lepers, and the weirdest diseases I could imagine. We preached, then prayed according to the above command, and saw limited success. We had some power.

Because of our associations with some more famous organizations, I was allowed to attend a huge Reinhard Bonnke Meeting at the old Polo Grounds at Madras, and sit on the stage about six feet away from where Bonnke preached. The crowds were without number to me; maybe a quarter million, maybe more, but I could not see the end of it; a literal sea of people, and the ladies there in there most colorful dress.

Bonnke preached a Gospel message of God's grace and love. It did not seem to me, particularly, in style at least, powerful or interesting. But I got the unexpected; God came down and showed Himself.

I saw from afar a "splash" of activity and heard some shouting and laughter, and then saw a small round object being passed up above the heads of the crowd....from perhaps 1000 yard back. As it drew closer, you could see that a young girl was sitting in it. Nobody knew what had happened to her, until she came up front to the stage.

She was born lame, and her legs never developed. They literally looked like skeleton legs, with massive bony knee-bones. She had never walked one step in her life, and the basket was her vehicle, as someone carried her on their back, wherever she went.

While sitting in this crowd, with her family , she felt tingling and an electric feeling, where their was none before. she could move her feet.

She was about 12, I suppose, and very beautiful, and somewhat glorified with joy. Bonnke greeted her in English; "Come on up here honey!", and grabbed her by the hand, and pulled her up on the stage. She then took her first step, but she walked like a spider, crooked and wobbly. The entire crowd was speechless; stunned and awed.

Bonnke had been here before, and knew what to do. It was like the second prayer of Jesus when the blind man saw blurry. He knew he must pray again, and I think that Jesus had it planned this way, to show to all His limitless power. Bonnke commanded everyone to close their eyes...a form of focusing on Jesus I think...and prayed a very simple prayer for a complete healing.

I did not close my eyes. I wanted to watch this one. After he prayed, more glory appeared on this girls face, while Bonnke began to dance with her, spontaneously, and with one hand led her skipping around the stage, and she began to leap with Gazelle like strides. She reminded me of the famous Russian Ballet...long, leaping strides, with perfect balance and grace.

Then, the second act of God. While hundreds and thousands watched, the Lord formed perfect legs on her, with strong muscle mass, like the legs and feet of a female athlete. It was then that everyone really broke out in WONDER! I watched this event, and could not believe it. Something impossible happened while i watched, and my faith refused to catch up with my mind. I had just witnessed a true Creative miracle up close, and did not believe it. I was shocked.

Bonnke knew when to strike. He immediately called for heads bowed, and prayer, and that all who wanted to serve this Jesus, God almighty, to come forward and believe! At least 5000 came rushing up, terrified and joyful, to receive Jesus. He had teams waiting to see them, instructing them, and assuring future contact to see them established in the local church.

Bonnke was whisked away, for many Hindu's wanted him dead.
I remained for the "After-glow", and was allowed by the Lord to pray and preach for everyone who needed it; about 1500 people, until 3 or 4 AM. It was a lot of fun.

One other foot note: I hesitated to share this, but I will.

When this young girl; was healed, I was very close to her. I saw an orb, Like a halo but in another dimension. I saw around her face, a MAN....with a beard and Jewish features. I saw the resurrected Lamb of God around her being. Quite a day for me.

Jesus is the healer, and it is He who is great. Fame has nothing to do with "great" preaching. It has everything to do with Him being exalted within you to give life to who He chooses. Most of these men will be obscure, and hidden, and will defer greatness like the plague.

Also, just because God uses you greatly, does not mean He always will. I have seen "great" men fall away, or become so absorbed with themselves that they lose the only "greatness" that MATTERS.

"Power belongs unto God.
_________________
ALL FOR JESUS NO MATTER THE COST..Tom Watkins


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sermonindex

"Miracles have not ceased."
"We need to make sure that we tell the difference between the real and the fake is all." EverestOSama

That was actually the user Miccah who said that. I was only quoting him. But I do agree with every word of it.

Also, that is an incredible testimony!

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MaryJane

by SkepticGuy on 2012/8/21 10:21:27

So you do not believe the scriptures are true? You need to clarify your last post.

no clarification is needed. i never stated what i believe becuz in the long run truth is not dependent upon what i believe or what u believe. i simply said if the bible is true then there are valid arguments on both sides. if not then it doesnt matter. this dicussion and many others like it are about topics that have been argued since bible times and they have never been settled. they will not be settled here. if more people realized that then perhaps there would be less arguing among you.

_____________

Skeptic guy
you do imply that you do not believe the Bible to be true by saying "if the Bible is true". At the least it implies you have doubt that it is true... so if I may ask directly do you believe the Bible is true? and do you consider yourself a born again Christian who has repented of sin and is seeking to live their life unto our LORD JESUS CHRIST?

You are right it does not matter what you believe or what I believe it only matters what the WORD of GOD tells us. GOD does tell us and reveal to us HIS truth and that is what matters. If I seek to follow after HIM and live my life in submission to HIS will then for me there is no doubt miracles happen. I have had many miracles happen in my own life and I give thanks unto GOD for HIS mercy and kindness.

Gifts of the Spirit are different then miracles as was mentioned by another poster but GOD does reveal these things to us through HIS WORD and the HOLY SPIRIT. Faith has a lot to do with it too :)

You are also right in stating that debates are pointless and a waste of time. Sadly either side usually comes in with one thought that they are correct and everyone else must validate them by agreeing. Again I believe in miracles I have had them happen in my life and have been encouraged by others who have shared their testimony as well. The Gifts of the Holy are talked about and I believe are given as needed, (GOD decides that one) I don't have to debate it, I listen to what others share and I take what the LORD has for me in that and then I move on.

I have been praying for you and will continue to :)

God Bless
mj

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twayneb

To his credit, I believe John McArthur is a man of God and a good Bible teacher. However I cannot agree with his cessationalist views. I don't think McArthur believes that miracles do not happen anymore. I think he believes that God does not perform miracles through men as we see happening in the book of Acts and that men no longer operate in supernatural ways through the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Someone can correct me if I have that wrong, but that is the idea that I have gotten as i have listened to him.

Mary Jane said there is a difference between miracles and the gifts of the Spirit. I think that is a good point, except I would make the distinction between miracles that man is not involved in and miracles that are accomplished by God's power working through man. I think that is where McArthur might draw the distinction, or at least it seems so to me.

In my experience the cessationalist view hangs, primarily, on a few verses in 1 Cor. 13 and the assumption that the "that which is perfect" refers to the completed canon of scripture. I think this topic was discussed recently on another thread entitled "why the need for prophets".

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=46166&forum=36&39

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TMK

I think most Christians today would say that they believe God still does miracles.

However, I am not sure if most Christians today REALLY AND TRULY BELIEVE that God still does miracles.

Or, as Andrew Wommack likes to say, many Christians believe that God can do anything, but that He just doesn't do very much.

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sermonindex

Have miracles ceased?

Just try stopping them - you'll find out.

Yes, I believe in ALL of the gifts and would like to explain why I posted what I did on Bear's other thread ... where I said that I can handle him not believing in prophets, etc......

Just try stopping the gifts or callings too. :)

I think if these cesstationists hang-out long enough on earth - they'll change their views.

My point in 'excepting' Bear's view on that one page or post was, regardless who the person is - someday, as GOD wills it, a prophet will come up to them and tell them things that will convince them that there is such a calling and if someone is truly hearing from GOD as one of His Sheep, the other gifts and callings will become evident to them as they're manifested and even the more so in the days to come .....

so, I don't worry too much about true sheep thinking that these gifts and callings are not existing because I'm confident that HE will change their minds in the not too distant future - if they have the ears to hear - which I believe many do.


SHALOM!

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sermonindex

Brother Tom, you said "If miracles have ceased, so has God; for it would imply that somehow He lost His power, and His desire to affect the affairs of men. Of course, He has not. "
I don't believe miracles have ceased, but I do want to point out some concerns I have with this statement.
You say if miracles have ceased, so has God.....the reason you give is this would mean He has lost His power, or His desire to affect men....
This statement implies that God must act in this way, or He either no longer exists or does not care. If God were to choose, in His sovereign wisdom, to not intervene in my life in a "miraculous" way for any given period of time, and He determined to effect my life in ways that did not include signs and miracles, this would in no way imply He did not care, or that He was powerless, nor that he no longer existed. Jesus warns us not to seek for a sign.
Our hope is built on nothing less than Jesus's blood and righteousness.
Sometimes when we are making a valid point, we are too far reaching in our argument. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

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sermonindex

"Sometimes when we are making a valid point, we are too far reaching in our argument. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water.".LeePadah.

I think you prove your point. In the grand scheme of things, God has always revealed Himself to men, and by the Nature of WHO HE IS; a supernatural God, He is by nature miraculous.

I was speaking in general terms to the "Cessationists" primarily when I said:
"If miracles have ceased, so has God; for it would imply that somehow He lost His power, and His desire to affect the affairs of men. Of course, He has not."

I was countering a general idea that God no longer acts in the affairs of men in Supernatural ways, or as many believe, even the supernatural gifts given to men; hence the title of this thread; "Have Miracles Ceased?".

I might add that one of the supernatural gifts of grace given to members of the body; "the "gift of healing" and miracles.

You applied it to the personal walk of the believer as to even seek for a sign?...and in the logical dissecting of something rather simple, implied that I was boxing in God Himself. This is "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" as I see it, and intellectual juxtapositioning that by slicing and dicing something direct, turns it into an opinionated maze.

A Spirit entered my body. It is a Spirit of a God, even the Creator God. At the moment this Personality entered me, I was aware of His Nature. I experienced the working of this personality, as I directly experienced every sin, and sorrow, and unclean flood out of me, as He entered into me. I spoke with other tongues.

I led many people to faith in this God who lived inside of me. I have seen Him work outside of me, and yes, heal, and do miracles...for me and for others. Because He lives in me, I am aware of His creative miracles constantly; and witness the reality of the more dramatic ones from time to time; such as casting out of demons, and healings, and now and then, creative miracles like in Madras.

I hear Him speak to me, somewhat, every day I live, and have heard Him audibly, and even seen Him...Yes; the truly miraculous is rare, but it occurs, and I do not seek the sign, but it tends to follow the Gospel, and Gospel people, as we live it....IF....you have truly been born from above, the second time.

The greatest Miracle is that we have been born Again. "Christ in us; the Hope of Glory."

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SkepticGuy

leepadah, ur saying that God controls and orchestrates our lives? and mite even do so by choosing not to perform miracles? so is it possible he has also chosen not to do miracles like he did in bible times? if God is all powerful & all knowing etc etc etc then he is powerful enuf 2 not do things the same way right? logic messes w/all of this. God is in control but he can never change? that makes no sense. 1 who can never change is not in control 4 very long.

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sermonindex

What I was trying to convey was that God, in His sovereign loving wisdom, can act in any way He chooses. To say that miracles (speaking in terms of the signs and miracles of the NT) have not ceased is a true statement. But To say God must act in that way or He is not God or He does not care is too far reaching.

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sermonindex

Skeptic, God's nature and attributes are unchangeabe. how He demonstrates these characteristics are always consistent with His character, but as there are many gifts and one Spirit, He can determine to express His interventions in ways beyond signs and wonders.

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sermonindex

Brother Tom, I read you post again and I am sorry if I implied in any way I was questioning you or anything about you personally. I was only speaking to the statement I quoted.
The baby with the bath water analogy meant this. In a sincere attempt to support the continuation of God's expression through signs and wonders, while throwing out the bath water of "no miracles", be careful not to throw out the baby: God's soveriegnty.

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sermonindex

So are we saying that cessation is not a New Testament doctrine? I must admit I am hard pressed to find scriptural proof for such a position. Though some would say John MaCArthur argues for such a position.

At this point I am somewhat puzzled. Any speaking of signs and wonders. It is said to be of Satan. Ir so it would seem. Yet it seems that one does not want to say that miracles have ceased. So what are we left with?

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

"Brother Tom, I read you post again and I am sorry if I implied in any way I was questioning you or anything about you personally. I was only speaking to the statement I quoted.
The baby with the bath water analogy meant this. In a sincere attempt to support the continuation of God's expression through signs and wonders, while throwing out the bath water of "no miracles", be careful not to throw out the baby: God'sovereignty."..LeePadah

Amen:...Brothertom

We must admit that the church itself has seen very, very little of authentic prophetic power, as a whole. I think of the Children of Israel in captivity in Egypt. For 430 years they multiplied in Goshen, with a seemingly redundant lifestyle, with no recorded witness of God's active Sovereignty..not one.
[ which I see now LeePadah that this may be your point....God shows himself in the Miraculous when He wants to...]

And...then one day Moses rose up, and killed a man...and fled to the desert, where he married a black woman, and started over....until that day the Burning Bush spoke to Him.

Suddenly! after all of those centuries....God revealed Himself....and then the most Amazing flood of miracles rained down on those Jews....the 10 plagues, and then the parting of the Red Sea,and the Cloud and the Pillar, where Jesus Himself shone through, the Manna, the Thundering Audible word, God writing on the tablets, on and on and on...

I see a bit of that a hundred years ago, after Azusa; particularly with John G. Lake, Dowie, and some instances with some Pentecostal pioneers, and then again in the healing revivals of the late 40s, and Wlm. Branaham, and the 200 or so healing Evangelists of the day......and that was 60 years ago......Oral Roberts and the such.[ Almost all of them fell, in one way or another...]

But...what about us? No, there is very little witness of true Apostolic power here in America, or really anywhere...but there is some....like a thin rain with sparse drops. I think there is a great danger to exalt the signs and wonders above the Giver, and to seek them, as people seek after prophets; to sensualize their faith, to dwell in the fires of excitement.

We see this cultural manifestation in our Pentecostal/Apostolic churches today; the Whoop! The Dance! The screaming in tongues....They are just trying to actualize an experience as authentic, and in doing so in action, they fortify their endorsement of themselves, and others as genuine.

[If they really knew how much it fortified their DISENGUINEITY they would possibly refrain..]

I have seen drops of the real, and buckets of pretenders, but part of this I suspect, is because we are in transition; I believe we are coming into the 2nd great Re-formation.....A New Wineskin to hold the greatest Glory the Church has ever seen....and it will be unto the very least of the Brethren...and Free.....and the current Priest/Pastor Class as dominators over these least will come to an end, and true shepherds will arise to feed and protect the body.

When this body does come together, and she will, in equality and Love, and unity of spirit, we will again see her flowing together as she did in the first century book of Acts Miracle and Healing Power.


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jimp

hi, i have a dear christian friend who i have seen become a millionaire... he gives like a billionaire because he knows where it came from... he had 50 houses built from slidell la. to mandeville. some he had as rentals and others new and for sale and katrina was coming. as he and his son prayed the night trough katrina center hit hard in slidell... after the trees were cleared and roads open he went to inspect the damage... not one dollar of damage to any of his homes... homes on the same street with roofs off and trees falling on the houses some flooded... he also had a plane moored in a hanger at the slidell airport... the hanger was blown away and the door of the hanger was 100 feet away and the plane was sitting where moored with no damage. i can write many many testimonies of miracles i have seen in my life for we serve a miracle working God. when i was a missionary isaw some things you would not believe.jimp

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MaryJane

At this point I am somewhat puzzled. Any speaking of signs and wonders. It is said to be of Satan. Ir so it would seem. Yet it seems that one does not want to say that miracles have ceased. So what are we left with?

Bearmaster.

__________________

bearmaster I am just wondering who has said this to you? Who has said that "any" signs and wonders are to be of satan?

Was there someone here on the forum who said these words or was this in the real world that this was said to you?

Perhaps it would help for you explain what your definition of each of these terms is, miracles? gifts of the Holy Spirit? Signs and wonders?

The enemy can mimic but in doing so his aim is always the same to draw us away from GOD. This is where discernment comes in.

was a bit confused by this last post of yours....

God bless
maryjane

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proudpapa

And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him
Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you?

We do not see miracles because we are faithless, Oh how much more faithless we are, than was Jesus disciples of whom he spoke this.
With our modern Science and our Education our university our academic worship our archaeology our commentaries our Systematic theology our Modern Medicine their is no room left for a miracle to happen. Trully Our Carnal Fleshly Earthly Rational (SARX) mind is enmity with God, it is bound by its naturalistic observations and limits reality to its natural understandings,It does not even believe the Bible, The modern professing christian (SARX) mind even adopts The Cessations Benjamin Breckinridge Warfields understanding of the nature of scripture rather than simply Believing the nature of scripture as scripture teaches of its self.

Jesus Rebuked those Of his day time and time again. for there lack of faith.

The entire Bible can be summed up from Gensis to Rev. by the theme, Believe trust have faith in what God says over what your sight your circumstance your rational mind see's
,thinks and believes it knows.

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sermonindex

Brother your post has answered my question.

Bearmaster standing down.

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SkepticGuy

At this point I am somewhat puzzled. Any speaking of signs and wonders. It is said to be of Satan. Ir so it would seem. Yet it seems that one does not want to say that miracles have ceased. So what are we left with?

i have not seen where anyone has said this here. thats why i said b4 that this is a strawman. an argument has been built upon sumthing that no one has said. the real question is did miracles ever really happen in the 1st place? if they didnt then they didnt cease.

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sermonindex

I am pretty settled in my mind and heart on the issue and will leave this thread. But Skeptic, I have a question for you. Are you settled in your soul about your standing before God?. Are you sure of your salvation? Do you know Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

You have been trolling around this web site for quite some time. We do get into disagreements and arguments and they get heated. But the one thing we do agree on is you must be saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. On that one issue there is agreement.

Have you ever called out to him? My friend God will call you to account for your sins. They have been paid for at the cross. Have you come to believe in the Lamb to take sway your sin.

On this one issue there is no debate. This is your soul. You take the name of Skeptic. Their comes a point when you got to believe. I would urge you to read the Gospel of John. Suspend your skepticism. Ask God to show you who Jesus is. And see him unfold in the pages of his word.

Jesus died for your sins. But it remains up to you to believe. I pray you find saving faith in Jesus.

Bearnaster.

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sermonindex

Miracles seemed to have ceased to those who BELIEVE they have ceased. It's interesting how that works.

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SkepticGuy

all i have done is pose a question 4 u to think about. it maybe doesnt fit ur beliefs so u assume i dont believe in God? i'm just saying miracles are not what we might think they are. maybe a miracle is really nothing more than a natural occurance with out an explanation. sum1 else said God is in control of everything that happens. maybe so. if so, then are miracles really all that miraculous? bet they are not with God. miracles may be just as natural as the sun coming up, but in our fool minds we look at it with wonder and call it a miracle. maybe we attribute too much to the spiritual when all along it may have nothing to do with it. sum1 gets sick oh no! the devil is gettin on my case. unexpected money comes in the mail we call it a miracle. maybe sum1 gets sick becuz they caught a virus from a shopping cart. maybe its a coincidence money came in the mail when u just happened to need it. maybe these things have nothing 2 do with a God or devil. or maybe they do. but how do u know? is God in control of everything? if so then logic would have u reason that everything is miraculous but its completely natural to God there4 nothing is miraculous.

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SkepticGuy

im not trying to argue anything with you, mr bear. just asking questions and trying to reason through it all and maybe help u think through what u say u believe.

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MaryJane

by SkepticGuy on 2012/8/23 7:30:17

im not trying to argue anything with you, mr bear. just asking questions and trying to reason through it all and maybe help u think through what u say u believe.

________________

I know you were responding to bear but I wanted to just add my answer in here...I think faith is my answers to your questions and as far as reasoning well we know what the Bible tells us about mans reason and wisdom :)

Still wanted you to know that I am continuing to pray for you often Skepticguy.

God bless
maryjane

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PQ

Miracles have NOT ceased. GOD gave me a miracle yesterday. I saw a miracle yesterday 22 August 2012

The devil is the same liar, so we are not surprised at those doubting or skeptical.

Yet, Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and forever!

Halleluyah!


pq*

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SkepticGuy

not saying ur wrong but just declaring something does not make it true. where is the proof? i can make a statement about anything i want but there is a good chance that i may be wrong. u say u saw a miracle on aug 22, and maybe u did. but u offer nothing to substantiate it. u dont even say what the miracle was but im just supposed to accept it or be labeled as deceived by satan. thats manipulating.

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