Desert Island Theology

This has the potential to be a really beneficial thread.

A few years ago, I was mulling over these very thoughts. In particular, the whole ordeal on tithing and Sabbath observance and whether they were still legally binding on Christians. So many believers go back and forth over these things; so many persuasive tomes have been written, theological swords crossed and brotherly fellowships compromised over these two intransigent tenets. Someone has to be wrong. They are either binding, or the Christian is free from the penalty of non-observance.

I thought of primitive missionaries presenting the New Testament to some aboriginal tribe in some far, occluded corner of the world. I envisioned a tribesman reading the New Testament for the first time from Matthew to Revelation in his own native language. And after reading it, other than receiving the obvious message of the cross, coming away with a compulsion to systematically tithe a percentage of his food or income or keep a certain day of the week. I saw this not only highly unlikely, but even in-congruent with the teachings of Paul.

From a New Testament "Desert Island" mindset, that is.

Brother Paul

I like the Desert Island Theology; with the Holy Spirit present it is indeed beautiful.

Yet, i wonder what if it is a woman on that island.

pq*

1Ti 5:17,18 Let theG3588 eldersG4245 that ruleG4291 wellG2573 be counted worthyG515 of doubleG1362 honour,G5092 especiallyG3122 they who labourG2872 inG1722 the wordG3056 andG2532 doctrine.G1319 ForG1063 theG3588 scriptureG1124 saith,G3004 Thou shalt notG3756 muzzleG5392 the oxG1016 that treadeth outG248 the corn. And,G2532 TheG3588 labourerG2040 is worthyG514 of hisG848 reward.G3408 [Luke 10:7]

1 Timothy 5:17 The well-leading elders of double honour let them be counted worthy, especially those labouring in word and teaching

The above verse addresses men in the local assembly within the community. These would be stationary and not mobile as those spoken of in Luke 10:7 who were "sent ones" on a mission of evangelism.

On 1 Timothy 5:17 R.C.H. Lenski adds these insightful comments:

It is generally assumed that the elders were paid for their services in the apostolic churches. We are convinced that this assumption is not tenable. The probability is that none of them were paid. The elders of the synagogues were not paid or salaried. Each synagogue had a number of elders, too many to have a payroll that would be large enough to support them. The apostolic congregations imitated the synagogue in this respect. Our passage speaks of "twofold honor," not of twofold financial pay or salary. Paul's two quotations support the injunction relating to according due honor to diligent elders; such honor is to be their reward just as the ox treading out grain is accorded the privilege of eating as he tramped along, just as the worker is accorded his pay. The tertium of the analogy lies in the worthiness and not in the identity of what the three are worthy of: the elders worthy of what naturally should go with their office--honor; the ox worthy of what naturally goes with the task for which he is employed--wisps of grain; the workman worthy of what naturally goes with his work--pay for his work.

George Mueller refused to accept a salary for his preaching.

Why? In his own words:

“The whole system tends to the bondage of the servant of Christ. One must be unusually faithful and intrepid if he feels no temptation to keep back or in some degree modify his message in order to please men, when he remembers that the very parties, most open to rebuke and most liable to offence, are perhaps the main contributors toward his salary.” ~ George Mueller ~

Again,in Luke 10:7 the instructions to the seventy "sent ones" was to be on the move and receive the hospitality given to them during their stay in a given city. They were not remaining in that place but were evangelists on the move proclaiming the Gospel.

We see in another place where elders were appointed in every city or assembly.

Titus 1:4,5 to Titus, a true child according to our common faith: Grace, mercy, peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior. For this cause I left you in Crete, that you might set in order the things lacking and appoint elders in every city, as I ordered you.

We've strayed very far from the Truth as it is in Jesus, which we read about in our Bible and the first century family of God who were called christians.

Resume's and job descriptions with a salary connected were unknown for pastor's(synonyms - elder,bishop)for centuries. But Rome and Constantine stepped in and muddied those waters too. And as I stated above,we've strayed very far from the Truth as it is in Jesus, which we read about in our Bible and the first century family of God who were called christians.

I agree with Paul W. that this is a potentially good thread.

I thought of primitive missionaries presenting the New Testament to some aboriginal tribe in some far, occluded corner of the world. I envisioned a tribesman reading the New Testament for the first time from Matthew to Revelation in his own native language. And after reading it, other than receiving the obvious message of the cross, coming away with a compulsion to systematically tithe a percentage of his food or income or keep a certain day of the week. I saw this not only highly unlikely, but even in-congruent with the teachings of Paul.

From a New Testament "Desert Island" mindset, that is.

Brother Paul

__________________

Love how you painted that picture for us. I believe that you are right in your conclusion and I have seen the same things on a personal level.

As I have read the Bible and sought hard after the LORD on the matter of giving I have seen that its not by compulsion of the law that giving comes from, but rather by the leading of the LORD. I am learning what it means to be a cheerful giver, to share what I have with others whether it be monies, food, clothes, even time. I want to be a giver and put others before self. As I read through the New Testament from the "Desert Island" mindset I come away with being a servant and a joyful giver. First a servant unto the LORD JESUS and then to one another. Giving joyfully to others has taught me so much, there is no "have to" involved. There is no compulsion by law, there is only the sweet calling of my LORD and a desire to respond to HIS leading. It has also taught me not to hold onto anything here in this world, no treasures to store up because they all pass away but the things of HIS KINGDOM they are for ever.

You know when I was young my family was really poor, we had no money coming in on a regular bases because my dad would not work and my mother struggled to feed 7 children as best she could. The interesting thing about those times was that I can remember getting up in the mornings and the cupboards were empty. There was no food, as I ate the last of the oatmeal mom had stretched to feed us all, I remember feeling hungry and wondering would there be anything for dinner or breakfast the next day. The amazing thing was that because of the heart and generosity of others seeking to serve the LORD there always was. People from the church would bring food over in boxes for us. Now all these years later I don't really remember the kinds of foods that were in those boxes but I vividly remember the hearts of those who brought the food, they loved the LORD and wanted to give to help others. JESUS had given them the desire to be servants and cheerful givers and I was blessed as a small child because of it :)

God Bless
maryjane

I've spent a lot of time developing this Desert Island theology and gaining insight from the Spirit but I think there is a need for balance here. God created His church as a body for some very real, practical reasons for which Desert Theology is not the Way. The Lord brought me into an extended period of Desert Theology but when chose to bring me out, I resisted, thinking that I didn't need other people to understand the Word. The core issue was not whether the theology was straight from the Mouth of God but that I was humble and listening to every way He would teach me.

Dessert in the Desert to quote the doughnut man. Some may reel from the thought of this separation because they see it as separation from the body, In the Great Command, we are called first to Christ and second to our brethren. A church ( body of believers) would do well to teach this for to reverse the order produces an atmosphere ripe for the traditions of man and a sundry of distractions.

I thought this thread would see many descent from such a proposition (the desert) because past threads have been so body oriented. This in NO WAY robs from the body of Christ for it is "The body of Christ" but what our sole ( or should I say soul) commune with the Lord brings to the body cannot be appraised for its value. The workings of The Holy Spirit are repressed when He is not sought first and if He is placed second, should there be any surprise of the result?

A very encouraging thread.

by Jeremy221 on 2012/8/24 5:32:50

I've spent a lot of time developing this Desert Island theology and gaining insight from the Spirit but I think there is a need for balance here.

_________________

Jeremy I do also see the need for balance. While I believe GOD desires for us to have time alone away with HIM there is an absolute need for the body to come together as well :)

I think GOD intended for us to have both, time with HIM and then to take those things HE has taught us and share and learn from each other so the body will be encouraged in HIM.

God bless
mj

It's not safe to judge others according to the flesh. Just because someone is in a "church" has no bearing on their obedience to the Spirit. I have known those whose work stood up to the lies, exposing deception and lukewarmness among the "faithful." Ezra 8-10 makes it clear that those who are called out need those with understanding to open the Scriptures and shed light on the marriages they have entered but which could result in them being cut off in the end, ridding themselves not only of the wives but the ungodly seed as well.

Ezra 9:11-13 (KJV)
Which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness. [12] Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave it for an inheritance to your children for ever. [13] And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve , and hast given us such deliverance as this;

We need to watch lest we seek the peace and wealth of the peoples of the land because it will not only lead to destruction but cause us to be weak. We need to be alert to hear His voice through any vessel He chooses. We can only come to learn the fulness of the love of Christ in the Body.

I appreciate the thoughts raised by this thread. I also agree with what Annie is saying here.

After I came to Christ, I quickly questioned almost everything I had ever been taught, told or had seen. This included many of what has been suggested as the "fundamental" doctrines of the faith. This might have been because -- even as a teenager -- I was quite agnostic shortly before I came to the Lord. I didn't have any Christian books, commentaries, or theological maps to tell me what I should believe. Even since then, I still shy away from books on doctrine. If I do read a book on theology, it is with a very healthy dose of sincere skepticism.

I was acutely aware of how flawed each and every person can be. In addition, I was very strongly aware of my own relationship with the Lord...and that I know the same God that those "famous" or "renowned" men claim. I was criticized by people that I knew because of this perspective. This attitude was reinforced when I met Leonard Ravenhill.

When I met with Brother Ravenhill in his home shortly before he died, he told me that the church is in the condition that it is in because the church has been doing what it has always been doing. He strongly encouraged me to TEST EVERYTHING that I had ever seen, read and heard. And, of course, that we should hold fast to what is good...and dismiss or reject what is not.

When I read what Paul West wrote in this thread, I was reminded of the time that Paul visited the "council" in Jerusalem. While some believers were instructing the Gentiles to be circumcised and obey the Law of Moses, Paul told the apostles and other believers all that the Lord had done among the Gentile believers.

The result?

The apostles didn't create a long list of fundamentals or a lengthy "We Believe" list. They didn't create a list of requirements for believers desiring to engage in working for the Lord. In fact, they did quite the opposite.

Peter stood up and spoke about how the Law was an unbearable "yoke." Likewise, James said that the Church should not "trouble" (or "make it difficult") for Gentile believers who have turned to Christ.

The body of believers decided to endorse Paul and Barnabas and send two prophets with them. As for "obedience," they felt only the need to encourage that those new Gentile believers should avoid food sacrificed to idols, blood, strangulated meat and sexual immorality. These things were quite reprehensible throughout the pagan Roman world at the time and could possibly diminish the "light" of believers. However, even these things were later explained in the Epistles.

If you notice, there was no mention of tithing. There was no mention of views on eschatology. There was no admonition about "proper" versions of the books of the Bible. There was no mention of music. There is no mention of baptism (or which specific words are a requirement when dunking the believer).

It is possible that the apostles and other believers felt that, if a person truly comes to Christ, the Holy Spirit would lead such believers into all truth without necessitating such explicit and binding instruction from men (including men who claim to have received their convictions from the Lord). Of course, the fact that believers risked their lives by publicly confessing Christ might have weeded out most of the "pretenders" of the day.

Today, most churches have a list of doctrines that differentiate them from churches down the street. Many have become "indoctrination centers" where they (more or less) instruct individuals in the doctrinal peculiarities that they feel God has not only revealed in those congregations. Those doctrines then become binding for anyone who wishes to do anything other than sit in the pews or chairs.

I believe that the Lord will pour out His Spirit in these last days. I believe that a truly God-inspired revival will come. However, I often wonder if people will accept it. What if it means the end of denominations? What if it means that the structure of our "services" is thrown out the door? What if it means that Baptists will stop being Baptists and Mennonites will stop being Mennonites and Pentecostals will stop being Pentecostals? What if, once again, we are simply "Christians?" What if the Church suddenly refuses to allow the doctrines and traditions of men to impede their fellowship with other believers who know the Lord?

Of course, we might not have much say in this matter. If persecution comes, we may rely on whatever encouragement and fellowship that we can find. Denominational, sectarian and "I'm-right-you're-wrong-so-listen-to-me" walls might come crumbling down when those believers we might currently reject share jail cells or go into hiding with us.

A few years ago, I began researching and compiling a book on various church traditions. It is still unfinished. It was tentatively called TRADITIONS OF MEN. Through this book, I was attempting to find and expose the roots to many of the traditions that believers adhere to. I was making a strong effort to cite the origin for each and every tradition as we try to determine what is inspired by the Word and what was handed down from men.

Over time, I was surprised at just how much of our Christian traditions was rooted in a non-Scriptural foundation. If, as the original poster suggested, that we were able to forget all of the "Church" things that we have learned on a desert island with only the Word of God as our guide, I suspect that our churches and layout might look very different than what we have grown so accustomed to.

Scott, thanks for provoking this discussion!

QUOTE:
"Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

COMMENT:

Unless one sees this operational in a body of believers one can easily expect to see an independent spirit rise up and overwhelm a person. This spirit will not accept or consider what any message of edification another may have to share. It will disregard any confrontation of sin because they consider themselves more spiritual then another. In other words, a prideful spirit is controlling a person.

The NT teaches us plainly that we are a body, all with differing functions that must work together for the common good. This is the essence of 1Corinthians. So then, if you are stranded on an island and have the NT you will be desiring [eventually] a find other Believers to fellowship with.

Excellant Thread.

I Find that what sscott7 has described here is very much the Theolgy that Jesus taught.

The Religious Jews of Jesus day claimed to believe The scripture but Jesus time and time again revealed to them that they trully did not have Faith in the Scripture but rather in thier religious traditions they where blind to the truth, Just like us today they had examined and argued and wrote commentary on every single verse of scripture, they had personally memorized countless amount of scripture, Yet because of there preconcieved understandings, doctrines, theolgys, their pretalmud they where completely blind to the truth. They would have and trully did argue with God himself on the true meaning of scripture.

Jesus did not teach the nature of scripture as what the Jews of His day understand it nor as Christianity teaches it today. He taught a nature of scripture that could only be understood as a supernatural inspiration, Jesus clearly made a theological point based on the inspiration of the jott and tittle down to the very verb tense of a word that was in the copies of copies that was available in His day In which was about 1500 years after the original writings, That makes no logical since to the Naturalistic mind, Yet That is the nature of scripture that scripture teaches of its self. It goes much further into the supernatural realm than what men like B.B.W. could ever comprehend.
What we need to relize is that our reality as understood by our experience and our understanding is a mere delusion. And what God says is Absolute! If we trully believed the nature of Scripture as scripture clearly teaches of its self, we would never rely on a Paraphrased or a thought for thought version for by doing so we succumb to the philosophy that only the basic tenents or thoughts of the Faith (what ever that is?) Has been perserved or inspired and thus we are trapped in the traditions the doctrines and the theolgys of Christendom.
So it would seem that the first step in this Desert Island Theology is to believe in such a Sovereign God that He would be able to provide the common plow boy with a supernatural and totally trustworthy Text, that it completely defies all the Laws of the naturalistic realm. Thus throwing off the Majority of the Worldly wise.
I will add one last very important point the Letter without the Spirit is dead. It takes the Spirit of God to illuminate the Letter.

Savannah wisely made reference to George Mueller, I find it fascinating that George Muellers first step of Faith was to throw out the Commentary and to trust God for interpretation of Scripture.

I applaud so many of the post written so far on this thread

It is very naive to think that given the chance of a new start for the church we would get it right. God has already used his choicest men in the past, the most holy and devout men who walked on earth in their time only to see that after their departure men would all to quickly turn to sin, folly and dead religion.

Desert Island theology is exactly what God did in Noahs time. God chose Noah to give all life on earth a fresh start. Noah was one of the most holy men ever lived before Christ apart from John the Baptist and Daniel and Job.
The desert Island was mount Ararat where the ark came to rest.

We must understand that the true church always existed along man-made religion. The two are always in tension and this tension is God's ordained way. Only through this tension can the true church be kept pure, otherwise she quickly gets corrupted. In fact many noble and pure movements of the past faded away after a genreration or two and turned into dead religion. Now in the last of the last days we have a much greater cloud of witnesses and 2 millenia of church history to glean wisdom from.

The true church will draw men out of false religion and has to suffer greatly for this. God has his own way to keep us pure through suffering and chastisement.

proudpapa wrote,

"Savannah wisely made reference to George Mueller, I find it fascinating that George Muellers first step of Faith was to throw out the Commentary and to trust God for interpretation of Scripture."

George Mueller,along with many others such as William Carey and David Brainerd,are so inspirational that they're worth quoting.

George Mueller at the age of 25 wrote,

"In the course of time I came to this country, and it pleased God then to show to me the doctrines of grace in a way in which I had not seen them before. At first I hated them, If this were true I could do nothing at all in the conversion of sinners, as all would depend upon God and the working of His Spirit. But when it pleased God to reveal these truths to me, and my heart was brought to such a state that I could say, “I am not only content simply to be a hammer, an axe, or a saw, in God's hands; but I shall count it an honor to be taken up and used by Him in any way; and if sinners are converted through my instrumentality, from my inmost soul I will give Him all the glory; the Lord gave me to see fruit; the Lord gave me to see fruit in abundance; sinners were converted by scores; and ever since God has used me in one way or other in His service.”

His testimony of how he came to believe the truth of God's Sovereignty follows,

“Being made willing to have no glory of my own in the conversion of sinners, but to consider myself merely as an instrument; and being made willing to receive what the Scriptures said; I went to the Word, reading the New Testament from the beginning, with a particular reference to these truths. To my great astonishment I found that the passages which speak decidedly for election and persevering grace, were about four times as many as those which speak apparently against these truths; and even those few, shortly after, when I had examined and understood them, served to confirm me in the above doctrines. As to the effect which my belief in these doctrines had on me, I am constrained to state, for God's glory, that though I am still exceedingly weak, and by no means so dead to the lusts of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, as I might and as I ought to be, yet, by the grace of God, I have walked more closely with Him since that period. My life has not been so variable, and I may say that I have lived much more for God than before. Thus, I say, the electing love of God in Christ (when I have been able to realize it) has often been the means of producing holiness, instead of leading me into sin.”

Yes! He (George) did it. Did what you ask? The very thing that you commend him for above. The very thing this thread is about. The very thing you and I and all ought to do. This is what you commend him for above when you stated, "I find it fascinating that George Muellers first step of Faith was to throw out the Commentary and to trust God for interpretation of Scripture."

And to quote George once more,

"...being made willing to receive what the Scriptures said; I went to the Word, reading the New Testament from the beginning..."

Soli Deo Gloria

Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Solus Christus
Sola Scriptura

And those that search out the truth in that desert island will leave the established, structured church.

Of course, we won’t know that if we are desert island theologians because we won’t see a need to examine their stories.

If you wish to be a “pure” desert island theologian – which Bible will you use? Or will you write your own translation? Remember, our bibles today are the product of much work by theologians in the past – and present - the work of Greek scholars and language translators all striving to provide us a clear text. (the more reliable translations are formed through team work)

Consider the apostle Paul. He had his desert experience, but he did not go into the desert as a blank slate or come out that way. He was shaped by his past. Yes, through Christ he did reinterpret his past, but he did not ditch it. He referred to the privileges of his past as “rubbish” – IN COMPARISON to Christ. God didn’t ditch it though. Paul’s past training and the skills were used by God in writing his epistles. Jesus’s disciples were not called to that because they did not have that capacity. That’s why Paul (a Pharisee!!) was chosen to provide the bulk of the theological content of the NT.

Oh yes, there are those who found Christ in the desert. But they don’t stay there. They need the Body! There are also many self acclaimed desert theologians who have gone off the rails in their creative theological conclusions. These are the ones who write a book and you see no references whatsoever, or they are poorly used. These "experts" see no need to build on the work already done – or even allow their work to be judged in the Body. And they can't see how they, in fact, have been shaped by influences in their lives - culture, family, religious affiliation, etc.

While there is a need to trust Christ alone, Christ does indeed use others, and we are to submit. We cannot simply wipe off 2000 years of church history and think we can do it better on our own.

Desert theology can be a way of insulating ourselves from the reproofs of the Body. …. After all, if you heard it from Christ himself (you think) you can’t be wrong, can you?

And you will not be inclinded to express gratitude and humility for what God has done and is doing through others. Let us be mindful of the danger of pride being the motive for “desert” theology.

Diane

There may be ten thousand Churches, but there is only one Christ. Nor can all those Churches supply the place of our one, blessed all-sufficient Savior. A man may be saved without the Church, but he cannot be saved without Christ. A man may be in the Church and not be saved; but he cannot be in Christ without salvation. Sinners sometimes become members of the Church; but only saints are members of Christ. A person may live in the Church for years, with the old heart of carnality and selfishness; but "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature".

The requirements of the Church are often wrong and ruinous; but the claims of Christ are always reasonable and right. The Church may become a sink of pollution; but Christ is ever the perfection of purity. The Church may be rent with divisions; but Jesus Christ is not divided. The Church may become terribly entangled in mysticism and error; but Christ is always the embodiment of light and truth. The Church may change her name and her nature; but Christ is "the same yesterday, today, and forever". The Church may be a crutch to walk with, but she is a poor Christ to trust in for salvation and eternal life.

Vast multitudes cling to some Church establishment as a drowning man would cling to a life-boat. They bow obsequiously to her priestly and official mandates, and imagine that the blind servility which they tender to the Church will be accounted acceptable service offered to Christ. The simplicity of the Gospel is lost in the imposing forms and glittering accompaniments of modern churchism. Splendid church edifices attract the eye. Splendid music charms the ear. Splendid prayers are addressed to the CONGREGATION. Splendid sermons please the fancy, and leave deluded sinners to slumber on. Church rivalry has achieved a glorious success, if success thundering organs, ostentatious dressing, theatrical singing, pointless praying, rhetorical preaching, careless hearing, and unscriptural practicing!

Much of the current worship is done by proxy. Lazy religionists surrender their sacred rights to others. They take it for granted that the preacher is on the right track, and readily swallow whatever may be doled out from the pulpit, without using their own brains in searching for the hidden treasures of truth. Thus religious ideas are transmitted from generation to generation, until tradition exerts a more powerful influence than the Bible in molding the sentiments of men.

There comes to be a fashionable faith, as well as a fashionable dress. To embrace a certain stereotyped circle of doctrinal views entitles a man to the claim of "orthodoxy"; but let him not venture one step out of the beaten track, if he would not be denounced as a deluded heretic! But few have the moral courage to question the decisions of the Church, much less to discard what she has labeled as "orthodox".

The verdict of a few leading denominations has thus grown up into a threatening tyranny; and the multitude cannot think of stemming the mighty tide. So they bow down in their narrow enslavement and worship this curiously- fashioned but pious-looking idol - "the Church!" Since all idolatry is an abomination to God, we have no more right to worship a church than we have to worship a golden calf! We rob the Lord of His rightful honor, and ourselves of the highest bliss of Christianity, by looking to the Church too much, and "looking unto Jesus" too little.

What can be done to deal a staggering blow to this cruel church/worship of the day, and at the same time give us more exalted and ravishing views of Jesus Christ? There is a grand failure to carry out the ultimate design, when the appliances of the Gospel result only in the production of Churchianity.

Our perception, our prayers, our faith and our adoration must overleap the narrow precincts of the outward Church, and rise up to the eternal throne! - A. Phelts

"Worship God!"

You missed the intent of the article entirely.

I do not think I questioned the validity of solitude with God or Sean’s point. My aim was to offer a caution. It is an ever- troubling propensity to fall over either edge of any claim. Even on this topic: Some over-emphasize “community”. Yet we also see a tendency to overemphasis the other extreme: individualistic Christianity (which is especially a temptation in our free-rights/choice culture).

In any argument, it is not unfitting to comment on the other “side”. That need not be regarded as “missing” the point – wouldn’t you say?

A point to consider: Sometimes when people have been hurt by the church, rather than seek forgiveness and restoration, they are inclinded to distance themselves from community (and speak ill of the church). That choice be justified as a virtue: I'm being "alone with God". Pride knows no boundaries - even on desert islands.

Diane

I do not know if those who keep quoting saints and commentaries are aware that they are playing the hypocrite.

If you so admire what they did, in that they honored the Bible above all else and refused to have a kind of a second-hand faith that is handed down from the traditions of men, then why don't you do the same.

It was mentioned that George Mueller came to believe in the doctrines of grace from reading the Bible alone but how do you know that his understanding of the docrines of grace is the same as yours.

For exapmle when he said " If this were true I could do nothing at all in the conversion of sinners, as all would depend upon God and the working of His Spirit."

How do you know that he means what many now aday understand him to mean that the Spirit would work independently from him.

Please listen to this short link by paul washer to get what I am trying to say.

http://youtu.be/O-7Z2cQbb3k

Took bearmasters advice and took the point down...

I wonder why it can't be both? I have been so blessed and grown in my walk so much at times from reading the Bible and at other times when the LORD has used the words of another brother/sister.

GOD gave us HIS Word, and HE also gave us one another. I look at both of these as a means to help me in my walk with the LORD.

God bless
mj

I wonder why it can't be both?

For what it's worth, I'm posting a reading I once wrote, which, I think, fits into this topic:

THE SACRED PLACE OF SOLITUDE

"I cherish the sacred place of solitude …. an abyss opening up in the center of my soul" by Peter Feldmeier

Have you ever found yourself utterly alone – perhaps through rejection or exclusion, or simply through exhaustion from doing good? You are not alone in your loneliness. Today there is widespread sense of loneliness and alienation. Perhaps this is why internet social networking has proliferated: It combats loneliness and the fear of isolation. But it also deprives people of true solitude.

Few know the value of solitude. Jesus valued solitude. He would often go off somewhere to be alone. Yet he was never alone. He said, “The Father is with me.” John 16:32 Jesus taught his followers to practice solitude, saying, “When you pray, go into your room.” Matt. 6:6 In other words: Your spiritual workout is not meant for display. You need to be alone - in private. You need solitude with God.

Through solitude we come to know ourselves as we are known by God. This may not feel loving at first. “It may feel more like deadening boredom or inner darkness – and even pain of loneliness.” 2 We discover how much we depend on external factors. Through solitude we learn to overcome our fear of isolation and our worry over what others think. When we are free from all that, our creativity is free to bud and flourish.

Great eagles fly alone. Likewise, those who have made outstanding contributions, such as in music, art, and science, have learned to fly alone. The biblical prophets themselves learned to value solitude – often through long and lonely wilderness experiences. Consider King David: His spirit thrived during times of loneliness and isolation. When alone in the pastures and the caves, God's Spirit intertwined with his spirit. That’s when David created some of the most beloved songs the world has ever known.

We can never know the richest blessings from God until we learn to walk alone with God. Let God isolate us and call us to the sacred place of solitude – the abyss opening up in the centre of our soul. There our soul gains an independent trust in God, and we no longer need the constant help, prayers, or attention of our peers. There we discover that, although we may be little and unknown, we are prized for God and God alone. And there we are liberated and shaped for our destiny.

by DE

I just want to apologize directly to Diane about what I wrote yesterday without thinking about the outcome. To be sure I have confessed my sin to the Lord and wanted to apologize to you Diane as well.

Jesus said:

What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" -Matt 15:11

Thank you very much for your patience while the Lord works out every unclean thing out of me.

Additionally, I want to thank bearmaster for the rebuke and I accept it in love.

You are forgiven, Learjet. It's my pleasure.

On another note, I do invite challenges or questions to the thoughts I express. Always, my ideas are a "work in progress". Sometimes corrections, clarifications and futher discussion are both helpful and appropriate.

blessings to you,

Diane

hi brethern

i think the most important question is what does the bible say ,,about the idea of desert iland type theoligy

does the bible teach us to practice this type thing ,,please show verses to suport opinions

and as presious and holy as our scripture are ,,can we do away with or downgrade or degrade ,the comands to teach and exort and the office of such

i was brought up on a deserted island and still remain on one ,,so im not bein biase by asking this sort of question

it was the only way i knew till i lerned to use the internet

after more then ten years in the wilderness with times of blessings ,deception ,stavation ,and feasting ,,,my belief is the body of christ should remain atached to its members in general all the time except for times of fasting and secrect pray

i cant find any scripture to suport a whole hearted practice of learing from just the bible and his spirit , with out the exortations eafications teachings and prophecys

but over the years iv spent more time in the bible some times 4and 6 hours a day 5 days a week ,just hearing the word voice recorded by my self for food ,,

and i dont want to downplay the blessings of this sort of medatation ,,but the corintian master peice that paul wrote on gifts and church practice ,has become a burden to experance now for me ,,and i know can not be devorsed from island bible medatation

blesings

Hi brothagary,

RE: brothagary wrote ///i think the most important question is what does the bible say ,,about the idea of desert iland type theoligy
does the bible teach us to practice this type thing ,,please show verses to suport opinions///

Read John ch 5 v 39-47

v 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me
(the Jews prided themselves in their belief of the scripture.)
v 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life
(Yet when they read them they did not truly believe them rather they put there trust in the dead orthodox understandings of the day)
41 I receive not honour from men.
(Jesus was the truth and believed the truth he was not worried about offending the Orthodoxy of His day)
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
(He saw right into the true motives of the religious of His day)
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
(I wounder how many would reject Him today, I wounder how many do indeed because of there preconcieved scriptural perspectives)
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
(verse 44 is in relation to how we read scripture the entire context thus far and to the end of the chapter is how we inturpet scripture,Are we affraid to think outside of the Orthodox Box when it comes to scripture?)
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.(Jesus told them that they trusted in Moses in the Pentateuch, watch what He says in the next verses)
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.(He than goes on and tells them that they really did not believe the scriptures, Oh their trust was in religion it was in Orthodoxy that used and twisted scripture but not in scripture they had theolgy but not //desert iland type theoligy//
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (If we do not believe The written Word how can we then truly believe the true Word)

Edit:PS thought and section Headings can and do muffle the Scripture,have you reliezed that the entire story of the rich man and Lazarus was given as a defense to the inspiration of scripture, If you have a Bible with section and thought headings this is hard to see.

i agree scott we should test evething by the word of god ,,but in doing so we all are adding our interpratation of how we see the word of god ,and are testing every thing by how we interprate scripture ,and as we all know the are varried inerprations on most verses,which is why there are so many denominations and factions ,, we have believers grouped together under various interprations all claiming to have the right meaning of the scripture

this inits self is havfe the proplem we all have and this practice in its self doesnt solve the problem ,

but due to te multudes of imature ,or not yet mature belivers ,,we have debate,factions ,and arugument ,all from us who claim to be more fair minded for the reason that we surch the scriptures

most of the verry active members here like my self ,would undoubtable claim to surch the scriptures prayfully
,,but we still come to different conlusions

i think we need to test our interprations of scripture by comparing how other matured saints have concluded there studies ,so we dont run into false teachings ,especialy when we are babys in christ ,and not yet matured ,as well as medatate on scripture prayfully and quitly

these two things cant be seperated by favouring one or neglecting the other

a balance is needed

it worth noting that the scripture you quoted about the fair minded bearens ,where still surching the scriptures in a jewish mindset according to the past influence and lerning ,,nothing is said ,about them casting all there old theoligy out the door ,, it woukd only be an asumtion based on presumtions to say that

scott wehn you mentioned tithing and prophecy

many who beieve in tithing will sincerly claim that scripture does in fact teach that ,and will show scripture references till the cows come home

and some say prophecy is out and will show from scripture why this is so in there eyes

as you said you could go on and on ,but to claim you have all the right interprations regaring all the contraveral teachings ,is not wise my friend

just for the record i believe in prophecy and pesonly dont believe in tithing ,,so im not in disagrement with how yo interprate in this instance ,,but some great saints of god who used mightly by him whoes sandles im not worthy to untie ,would disagree with us

blessings

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

hi proudpapa

i dont believe that scripture you quoted can be draged out of its oridgnal contex ,and aplied to newcovernt believes ,and then used as a scripture to suport a true believers growth to maturity ,is better done with a desert island type princaple

brother your exposisions of those verses is a basic thing that most of us would allready know

scripture says he who is of god heres the words of god

these jews were not led by the spirit in any way shape or form ,,there father was the devil jesus said

all whom the faher have givern me will come to me
and i will in know way cast them out
you do not believe ,becasue yo are not my sheep
my sheep here my voice and i know them
and they follow me

i dont see how we can aply that scripture in the contex it is in to an issue i raised about finding scripture,to suport us coming to our own conlusions about what scripture teaches ,with out the true matured elders helpng to expound and teach us ,,

we constanly see the apostals apling there teaching gift to expond the old testament and give its meaning to the readers ,,,and other examples of others who are not apostals ,taking aside certaint others and teaching them more properaly the word of the gosple

i see no one exorted to go off on ther own and come to there own conclusion as a lone ranger of interprations

if we look at timothey he was exorted to keep the teaching he got from paul a sound doctrine ,, not his own version

blessings

hi proudpapa the last scripture you posted by john doesnt suport the island theloligy

the reason why the church spoken of here by johns knows all things ,,becase they were taught by teachers and the apostals them selfs and prophecided to by propherts and led by pasters ,we know this by reading pauls leters to the corinthians ,,

these dont need men to teach them .like the old coverent days ,they have the holy spirit ,teaching them inturnaly ,and through apostals propherts and pasters and teachers ,,god him self speaks throught these chosen vesels to aply his holy doctrine,,,we all know this and we experance this

this scriptue agrees wityh the letters of paul and does not teach we shoyld go in a cave and get intouch with an inerlight ,and get all our understang from that ,,not at all brother

blessings to you

Hi brothagary,

RE: brothagary wrote ///i dont believe that scripture you quoted can be draged out of its oridgnal contex ,and aplied to newcovernt believes ,and then used as a scripture to suport a true believers growth to maturity ,is better done with a desert island type princaple///

I believe that scripture I quoted is extremly applicable for today and for this topic and has been inspired (preserved) specificaly for our usage today, it certainly was not written down and preserved as to be a benifite to those of whom it was spoken. He is calling on (all men) to set there traditions there preconcieved notions, there theolgys to the side and not to be bound by Orthodoxy and to put Ones trust in His sovereignty to both inspire the written word and also to illuminte its meaning.

Hi brothagary.

RE:brothagary wrote ///hi proudpapa the last scripture you posted by john doesnt suport the island theloligy///

1 John ch 2 most certainly does support /island theloligy/ The context of first John is that in the last days in which he says of his day had already begun that there would be those teaching a false Christianity whom would try to seduce us, We are living much closer to the last time than was John and these suducers are much more prevailent than was they then.

I agree though that there is a balance needed within the brotherhood and I believe that, that is the point that you are trying to make, I know we can and do get a blessing from anointed brethren and anointed preachers but we must needs to be intune and in the Word enough to dictate error, And willing to do as so many of the herroes of Faith of the past and stand alone when so called to.

hi proudpappa i relise that scripture was not preseverd for those of whom it was spoken ,thats more then obvious ,,just the aplication of it as you used it is to far in the wider contex to aply it to the caled and chossen sheep ,,for one it spoke about those who were not called whose father was the devil him self as jesus said

i dont think he is calling all men to set a side traditions if they are of a godliy tradition ,

paul said in one of his letters if you rember to hold fast to the tradtion taught by word or letter

maby you have a differnt definition to me regarding orthadoxy ,, but the lord as revived certaint orthadox christanity and blessed them with the baptisim of the spirit as a sign of obedance ,,and there was no need to put a side orthadox traditions ,,just fast, prayer and bible stude and preach the word

brother there is live orthadoxy
and dead orthadoxy ,as there is weat and tares

we should not bundel them all together and burn them angles

if your saying get out of the dead liberel orthadox traditions and church ,i agree

bless you

not all the heroes of the faith threw out there learing and traditions ,some were blessed to have been taught good things and were further blesed with great power from on high there is a balance on that scale there as well

not all the heroes of the faith threw out there learing and traditions ,some were blessed to have been taught good things and were further blesed with great power from on high there is a balance on that scale there as well

we must needs to be intune and in the Word enough to dictate error, And willing to do as so many of the herroes of Faith of the past and stand alone when so called to.

It seems that the real dividing line has to do with where our trust is placed: It in God – or in people (ourselves included)? That discovery, in itself, is a learning process – through both solitude and community with others. Certainly that is the way how God has worked in my life, and as I have discovered, in others too.

Do these comments resolve the tension between solitude vs community in the Christian life?

Diane

Hi brothagary,

RE: brothagary wrote ///hi proudpappa i relise that scripture was not preseverd for those of whom it was spoken ,thats more then obvious ,,just the aplication of it as you used it is to far in the wider contex to aply it to the caled and chossen sheep ,,for one it spoke about those who were not called whose father was the devil him self as jesus said///

The application of the verses very much can and should be used in the context of island theology in that (all men) whom read such verses so ought to and so needs to do a self examination and ask themselves if they are guilty of the same such things as what the Religious of Jesus day whom believed that they where the called and chosen of God but whom by their traditions made the Word of God of none effect.

They believed they had eternal life because of there understanding of scripture but there traditions Blinded them from the true meaning of the written word which caused them to not be able to recognize the true Word.

RE: brothagary wrote ///i dont think he is calling all men to set a side traditions if they are of a godliy tradition ,///
I do believe he is calling (all) men to examine their traditions in the light of (all) the scripture. And for them to prove to their ownselves that their traditional understandings are not making the Word of God of none effect. Many within religiosity have historicaly as well as currently made the word of God of none effect by their traditions, We all agree on this, like wise in that we all agree, we should all be open to Gods leading thru the scripture of truth to reveal to us personal errors in our traditions and preconcieved understandings and be willing that God change our perspective in the ereas in that He sees fit.

RE brothagary wrote ///paul said in one of his letters if you rember to hold fast to the tradtion taught by word or letter///
Amen, and let me make clear that I am not encouraging us to be tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Nay but just the exact opposite

RE: brothagary wrote ///maby you have a differnt definition to me regarding orthadoxy ,, but the lord as revived certaint orthadox christanity and blessed them with the baptisim of the spirit as a sign of obedance ,,and there was no need to put a side orthadox traditions ,,just fast, prayer and bible stude and preach the word
definition orthodoxy "the condition, quality, or practice of conforming, especially in religious belief" http://www.thefreedictionary.com/orthodoxy

Lets be orthodox in truth but lets becareful of what religiousity that we conform to.

RE:/// fast, prayer and bible stude and preach the word/// hey now that is some good Orthodoxy!

RE: brothagary wrote ///brother there is live orthadoxy
and dead orthadoxy ,as there is weat and tares///

good point

RE: Brothagary wrote ///we should not bundel them all together and burn them angles///

that is why I included in my other post = "I agree though that there is a balance needed within the brotherhood and I believe that, that is the point that you are trying to make, I know we can and do get a blessing from anointed brethren and anointed preachers but we must needs to be intune and in the Word enough to dictate error, And willing to do as so many of the herroes of Faith of the past and stand alone when so called to."

RE: brothagary wrote ///if your saying get out of the dead liberel orthadox traditions and church ,i agree

bless you///

I would not just limit it to the dead liberals in seeing that there are many whom are conservative and are bound up by traditions and legalism that also have not the truth.

Blessings also to you Brother