to hold any one guilty of sin for not doing what he could not do, belongs to the height of iniquity

If evil, are they so by nature, or by will? But by nature souls can in no way be evil. Whence do we teach this. From the above definitions of will and sin. For to speak of souls, and that they are evil, and that they do not sin, is full of madness; but to say that they sin without will, is great craziness, and to hold any one guilty of sin for not doing what he could not do, belongs to the height of iniquity and insanity. Wherefore whatever these souls do, if they do it by nature not by will, that is, if they are wanting in a movement of mind free both for doing and not doing, if finally no power of abstaining from their work is conceded to them; we cannot hold that the sin is theirs. But all confess both that evil souls are justly, and souls that have not sinned are unjustly condemned; therefore they confess that those souls are evil that sin. But these, as reason teaches, do not sin. Augustine.

The condition being spoken of is evil. The action being spoken of is sin. The object being spoken of is the soul. The power being spoken of is the will or volition of the soul. The preceding conclusion is that the soul is not intrinsically evil.

Paraphrase

To speak about the soul as being intrinsically not evil, and yet to say that the soul does not sin, is madness or irrational, but to say that the soul exercises no intention or will when it does sin is to express complete madness. The soul does not need a teacher to sin, it is bounded up with the body in such a way that the soul sins by nature without effort yet not all that arises from the soul is sinful. Therefore to hold any one guilty of wilful sin if their sin is in fact that which they do without thought or wilful intent is wrong. If a soul has no freedom in their thinking resulting from a renewed mind so as to be able to know what they are doing; so that they do not have the power to resist their sinful inclinations; in short no way of deliverance, then that sin is not accounted against them. It is claimed by all others (commentators) that when the soul sins, whether perceived to be justly or unjustly condemned, sin is accounted against them. But (these) those who sin without the power of the renewed mind do not sin; as reason teaches. amrkelly

End Paraphrase

Brother here is my understanding of the passage quoted above. I cannot say if my understanding is entirely accurate. I can say that at the root of the passage lies a heresy. This is essentially that a soul, (person) whilst they are evil in the sight of God, is only accountable for their sin if they have been renewed in their thinking through the Gospel so as to know that all of their actions are both wilful and at the same time arise out of the sinful nature, if they do in fact sin. In contrast a person who though they are (as a believer is) sinful in the sight of God, cannot know that their actions are sinful and therefore by reason cannot be accountable for their sin. The argument claims that the soul is intrinsically neutral neither evil nor good and that even the unregenerate mind sins wilfully. The purpose of the argument is to reason that a person neither who being intrinsically good nor evil still exercises their will or volition when they do in fact sin. The real issue for Augustine seems to be the issue of accountability before God. It is an "as God sees it" argument though asserted by virtue of a renewed reasoning mind.

The prefix is a question. Are men evil by nature alone, or do they also have to exercise their knowing mind (wilful mind) in order to be called or accounted as evil before God? There are many Scriptures which come to mind to support elements of the presuppositions underpinning this question as well as the argument. Universalism is the principle heresy which arises from the argument. But there are other heresies inferred in the argument as well. Although I have never thought that Watchman Nee expressed any heretical thinking he also argues that the soul is not intrinsically evil. For Nee the meaning lies in understanding the relationship between the Spirit, Soul and Body. The body is always evil because it embodies the power of sin and death. The Spirit is always good as it is a spirit born of the sinless and perfect life which is in Christ. The Soul posses the body as well as expresses the new life in the spirit through a renewed mind. It has to be said that Nee’s teachings on this subject form the most controversial and difficult of his teachings because of the implications which attend to this Augustinian heresy. This is a great sadness as I have personally found Nee's ministry of teaching to be exceptional. In misunderstanding this one point much of his ministry has been rejected at a time when it is more needed than ever before.

I think the idea behind those who say that man does not have a sin nature is the same as stated by Augustine in this passage of his writing. The nature of a thing is that which gives the thing it identity and that over which the thing has no control. For example, dogs do dog things and have dog behaviours because they are dogs. They cannot act as cats because they are, by nature, dogs. By that reasoning, a man with a sin nature could never become anything other than a sinner and would be reprobate. tanyweb.

One of the Scriptures which came to mind whilst reading the Augustine quotation was “No man has sinned after the likeness of Adam’s sin” Romans 5:14. Adam was innocent and yet he sinned. He was not deceived as Eve. yet he sinned. Clearly this verse does point to a condition which is no longer the experience of Adam’s progeny. The condition is of course innocence. Yet this Scripture does not say that men are incapable of resisting sin. In fact the opposite is inferred by the Scripture in Romans which tells us that all are without excuse. What we are told, again from Romans is that it is Adam’s sin which is accounted against all men, even as Christ’s obedience is accounted to all men. Transgression came in by one man Adam, and righteousness by one man Christ. Clearly for the transgression of Adam to become real in experience one has to be born of Adam; so that in Genesis we read that Adam begot a son after his own image and likeness.. Similarly to benefit from Christ’s obedience one has to be born of Christ’s Spirit; in this regard we read that we are changed into His image and likeness. The Scriptures in Romans also tells us that it is the physical body which is inherently sinful because it is “the body of sin and death”. Yet for those who are born again it is “the spirit which is born of the Spirit”. The danger in asserting that “flesh begets flesh” be it dogs, cats or any other is to lose sight of the fact that Scripture also teaches that “all have sinned” and so all are personally accountable as well as sinful by virtue of being of Adam’s progeny.

There is no doubt that this subject is a difficult one, but there is also no doubt that the Scripture is clear that “the heart is wicked and deceitful above all else” Jeremiah. Clearly the heart in this verse does not have to do with the physical body; it is to do with the soul. The wickedness and deceitfulness has to do with unbelief or else a refusal to acknowledge God Who is “clearly manifest through the things He has created” Romans. Universalism as a doctrine or a teaching is built upon the idea that because men cannot but sin therefore God Himself would be unjust to condemn anyone who sinned simply because they are sinners by nature. It is a claim that this would be unjust and must be therefore incompatible with a just and loving God. Added to this is the modern day teaching that because Christ has died for sin, there is no sin for which eternal consequences can be accounted to any individual, as this would itself be a denial of God’s love which sent Christ to the Cross for sin.

The Scripture teaches that the sin nature is the physical body and the soul becomes sinful insofar as it is governed by the lusts of the flesh. Once this dominion is achieved even the heart, mind and will are taken captive and become carnal my nature as well. Only new birth offers a man the opportunity to overcome this carnal mind and sinful body, by the renewing of the mind as well as by the Cross of Christ through personal experiential identification with Christ’s death and resurrection. What Nee teaches is that the soul does not always sin; not that the soul is sinless. This is different to the reasoning of Augustine who asserts that a man must wilfully sin in order to be accounted a sinner. Nee teaches that men do not sin in the first instance because they “will” to sin in some particular way or other, but that men sin in the first instance because they are sinners by nature. The singular distinction which Nee draws is a distinction between Spirit, Soul and Body, not simply Soul and Body. So that in Nee’s teaching it is possible to draw a distinction between the inevitability of sin arising from the body (the law of sin and death working in our members) as well as the soul which is governed by bodily lusts and desires, and the possibility that the soul can through a regenerated spirit do that which is not sinful by the governing principle of resurrection life having dominion over the whole man. In this view the unregenerate man will inevitably sin both in the body and the soul, i.e. thoughts and desires; (though even the unregenerate man does not always sin) but the regenerate man can have a renewed mind as well as victory over his body through the Cross of Christ. To that extent I believe Nee is arguing that the soul is not intrinsically evil. The soul does sin, but it has the possibility of becoming free from sin by the renewing of the mind, so that “you may prove that acceptable and perfect will of God”. In contrast the body must be “borne up unto death daily”. The soul is able to “do God’s will” whereas the body must become subject to the “death of the Cross”.

In Augustines argument sin is only sin where the will to sin is recognised. This leaves room for the possibility that a person can claim to be sinless before God simply because they do not wilfully sin, without the need to repent of sin, and this because Christ has died for sin. It is sin which arises from the nature or else the consequence of Adam's sin. This is the historical root of Universalism as we know it today.

Adam and Eve, via sexual reproduction, recreated human nature. Their descendants now live in sin, in the form of concupiscence, a term Augustine used in a metaphysical, not a psychological sense.[16] Augustine insisted that concupiscence was not a being but a bad quality, the privation of good or a wound.[17] He admitted that sexual concupiscence (libido) might have been present in the perfect human nature in paradise, and that only later it became disobedient to human will as a result of the first couple's disobedience to God's will in the original sin. Quoted by Brother Gary.

I hope that proudpapa is not offended by my posting directly into his post with my own answers. But he asks such provoking questions at times and they often seem to have at their root something of a controversy in that they innocently challenge profound ideas which every believer ought to understand; who are easily carried away with philosophy. This is quiet a skill of proudpapa and a good thing in my thinking. So to answer you Brother Gary:

Metaphysical thinking has its roots in Greek philosophical thinking. When employed by one who knows Christ, yet is vain and confident in their own reasoning mind, it becomes a way to expiate physical reality by either alluding to something physical, but yet ends up denying a physical truth; or else it is to state a physical reality but with the intention of producing a lie. This is because reason without the Cross equals vanity and the working of Satan. Apart from any academic understanding of the term, as those who love The Lord Jesus, we should seek to understand or else discern what is intended by the words used by such men as Augustine. Trying to understand the Greek philosophers would be an imaginative exercise but in the end we would only be drawn into reason and would as they were become deniers of the Truth. Whilst they acted ignorantly in as much as they did not have the true knowledge of God and Christ, Augustine is without excuse. So although Greek philosophical thought came into western culture and thinking in its pure or direct form via the Crusades against Islam in the east in the 11th and 12th centuries, it is important to remember that through Augustine this philosophy of reason came into the Church (Catholic) in the 4th century. Although we tend to think of Augustine in terms of the middle ages and the monastic life, his influence is endemic throughout the post apostolic church. He was a vain and conceited man who although he is praised to the roof, he is in fact responsible for firming up a natural philosophical perspective of the church, as a catholic church. His powers of reason laid a basis for the Reformation fathers, yet he has also contributed considerable heresy into the church because of his attendance to natural philosophy. In short he held to a state of reason which had its roots in the same philosophical works which also gave rise to occidental occultism.

Our confidence must be in the Scriptures and in Revelation of God. We must put our reliance on our relationship with Christ and determine not to remove beyond what the Scriptures tells us is our measure. Putting confidence in philosophy and reason is simply vain. Words can and do mean many things. We can state something which on literal understanding may very well be truthful but which when accepted into the heart through the reasoning mind becomes a lie when it is mingled with the deceitful and vain heart. This business of the sinful nature is profoundly in that category.

What Augustine calls concupiscence is a construction borne out of a natural philosophical understanding informed by early as well as Late Greek philosophical thinking and is an attempt to deny the very fabric of reliance on the reality of Christ’s body crucified for sin. The word emphasises the sexual component of union between a man and a woman making libido or sexual awareness as a root of an individuals awareness of the sinful nature. If you want to understand how it is that something which is in fact holy, being an act of separateness of one man and one woman to each other, can become viewed as unclean and filthy, you have to look no further than Augustine. This metaphysical or natural philosophical understanding has been so successful an invasion of the western church that many believers even find it difficult to accept the simplicity of what constitutes the sinful nature, its power and source. The sinful nature has its source and power in the body. It is the body of sin. Unless we reckon with this body of sin, according to God’s estimation we will not overcome sin, the flesh or the Devil working in our lives.

It is true that Augustine promoted a less philosophical or metaphysical view of the sin nature in his later life. This shift can be understood in the way in which the medieval western church embraced self mortification by applying the rod to the physical body itself as a remedy for dealing with its lusts and influence on the soul. Yet even in this regard it amounts to a man’s efforts and takes no reliance on God’s remedy which is the Cross of Christ laid hold of in experience by faith. It must be a looking to the Cross by faith as well as a reckoning with the body of flesh. It must be a looking to the Cross by faith as well as taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ Himself. It must be a putting no confidence in the flesh, and taking every confidence in the Lord’s obedience unto death. It is a being born of water of our mother womb and being born again of the Spirit of God. It is a new creature and an old man. It is being buried with Christ into death and a walking in resurrection of life. It is by faith, yet it is a not puffing at the air with words, but a bringing of the body into subjection, lest we be found to have run in vain. In the end it is the physical body, yet it is not a physical inheritance but a spiritual inheritance and a new body at the Lord’s return.

Proudpapa I will try to answer your question regarding Augustine’s contending with the Manichaean heresy as well as the Pelagius heresy when I have gone through chapter 12 as posted. I need breakfast first it’s been a long night.

Come now, let us see in what respect these things would have aided us. Much every way, so that I should have desired nothing more; for they end the whole cause; for whoever consulting in the inner mind, where they are more pronounced and assured, the secrets of his own conscience, and the divine laws absolutely imposed upon nature, grants that these two definitions of will and sin are true, condemns without any hesitation by the fewest and the briefest, but plainly the most invincible reasons, the whole heresy of the Manicheans. Augustine.

The “these things” are the two definitions of will and sin which Augustine established and which form the underlying argument by which Augustine asserts that he defeats the Manichaean heresy. The pivot of the assertion is that it is in the inner mind or conscience where the proof lies because the proof is itself attendant to the physiology or physical nature of a man by imposition of God. This is what is called elemental philosophy and represents early Greek philosophical thinking. A quote reflecting modern day thought demonstrates how much this way of thinking still shapes modern life. "After industrialization, knowledge became fragmented and people lost touch with the material realities of the places in which they lived. David Macauley blends ancient Greek precepts with twenty-first century circumstances: earth, air, fire, and water call upon us from across the millennia to reanimate humanity's connection to our home planet." --David Spanagel, Worcester Polytechnic Institute. If this sounds “New Age” in its direction then that is because it is the tip of an intellectual iceberg of thinking which has collectively been called the Age of Aquarius. It is however nothing more than elemental philosophy.

The simple point is that Augustine was influenced directly by elemental philosophy to such an extent that he couldn’t remove himself from the knowledge that the very body itself is physically attendant to God’s elemental governance. To the extent that were one to press into that hidden understanding one would recognise this elemental reality and this would irrevocably settle the Manichean heresy that there are two kinds of souls one good and one evil. Apart from acknowledging that every element of the universe is in God’s hand, we would have to assert that the rest is vanity. This is because the very elements themselves are disturbed and changed by rebellion of both Angels and by disobedience of men. The fall and subsequent judgment of the evil one laid waste to the heavens and the earth. In Genesis 1:2 the earth is in a state of chaos and is uninhabitable. Yet in Genesis 1:1 we are told that God made the heavens and the earth. Adam’s very body became fallen. It became subject to the law of sin and death. The orderly and therefore everlasting body which Adam was given became itself subject to chaos and inevitable death. This condition is so grave that God Himself puts Adam out of the garden and away from the Tree of Life to prevent Adam from being able to live for ever in a ruined state. This is God’s mercy.

Any looking into ones self to understand or else to estimate ones self is bound to produce a wrong outcome. What you will observe is chaos and ruination. In assessing the inner man in the mind of reason bounded by physical perceptions and in the knowledge of elemental philosophy, Augustine made a profound wrong assumption; namely that the elemental universe is orderly and harmonised; therefore so must a man be orderly and harmonised even in a fallen state. What are missing are the knowledge of Scripture and the leading of The Holy Spirit to understand that God Himself has, since the fall of that former Covering Cherub, even the wicked one, subjected the whole universe to futility. God’s own estimation and the limits of His determination is that all men are able to observe outwardly His existence by the things He has created. In this all man are without excuse. Creation visibly bears witness to God Himself. If we press inwards becoming like god’s as Satan promised Eve, we will encounter futility and God’s own snare to prevent men from ascending to the heavens without dependence on Christ. Only in Christ can we truly understand our part in the heavens which is our being presently seated in Christ at the right hand of The Father, and hereafter New Jerusalem and a new heavens and a new earth.

Empedocles was a Greek pre-Socratic philosopher and a citizen of Agrigentum, a Greek city in Sicily. Empedocles' philosophy is best known for being the originator of the cosmogenic theory of the four Classical elements terra, era, ignis and aqua. This elemental view of life and the cosmos forms the early part of Greek philosophical development. The progression becomes increasingly rationalistic and increasingly sets men apart from God Himself, driven as it is by Satan who is concerned to make himself the god of this world. By the time of The Lord Jesus he has indeed become the God of this world and all men are in him, because the whole world has believed his lies and followed his direction. Augustine as with many others who have come down to us as foundational truth was in a true sense following in this same path of reason and self enquiry. Consider therefore what the outcome of this was even at the time of The Lord’s earthly ministry.. “He, who has supped with Me, has lifted up his hand against Me” (Paraphrase) “Behold the god of this world comes, yet he has nothing in Me”. If Judas had not attended to his reason and lusts, he would not have betrayed Christ. He would like the other apostles have cast down his means of sustenance and followed Christ as one trusting in God Himself.

The whole of western culture is rooted and founded in rationalistic and reasoning philosophy brought to England as well as central Europe in the 11th and 12th centuries by Crusaders returning from the Islamic territories conquered in the name of Christ. These soldiers as well as Roman Catholic priests brought with them the early and late Greek philosophies and thereby made full that which was started by men such as Augustine in the introduction of philosophy into church doctrine, marking the true beginning of the Mother of Harlots of Revelations. Today we live in a so-called post rationalistic society where men believe that by looking into the actual physical cosmos of atoms with electron microscopes we have somehow escaped the vulgar though admirable efforts of the ancients; we have indeed become god’s ourselves. Yet the evidence in all our lives tells us that we are more driven by selfish and carnal ambitions than at any other time in the history of the world. Today a small child can have as much comfort and possessions as a prince had in ancient times. Psychology, Sociology, Zoology and Anthropology are all grounded in rationalistic reasoning and have all drawn men away from God and into self determined lifestyles. They are all informed by philosophical reasoning based on a denial of God and a hope in man.

The teachings the Manicheans proclaimed were attacked by Augustine when he had become a member of the Catholic Church. He presented the views of Catholicism as opposed to the Manichean teaching, making a personality whom he calls ‘Faustus’ the advocate of Manicheanism. It is the dualistic conception of good and evil that distinguishes it from Western Christianity. Manicheanism is supposed to have taught that evil is eternal, like the good, that there is no resurrection and that evil has no end, that it has the same origin as the good and is without beginning and hence without end. The man accredited with the origin of this dualistic heresy is Mani who is a Babylonian prophet from Persia who left his writings to his widow who then allowed them to be developed by others and which in the end were held to by so many people that they were for a while, in north Africa, almost a certain challenge to the true faith. It is in North Africa that Augustine developed a catholic (world view) of the true faith which gave a deep philosophical and intellectual satisfaction to the newly accepted Christian faith some 70 years earlier by Constantine. The preceding 270 years approximately is characterised by 1st century bestial persecution of the churches by the Caesars directly and personally, thereafter in the 2nd and early part of the 3rd century it is the State more directly driven by laws and by now an almost societal obligation to hate Christians and to persecute them by pressing them to the extremes of society and life itself. Until the 30 years or so in the life of Constantine whose mother Helena was a believer, this pattern continues, only now the change to a state sponsored belief system begins. Also this provides the circumstance both politically and societal which made it possible for Augustine to apply his intellect to the problem of finding the philosophical bridge which would connect the true faith and the state as an harmonious entity.

He did this by conceiving of a great city (at that time mystical) which would demonstrate how truth and political thinking could exist side by side without conflict. It was a type of New Jerusalem of Revelations. In reality it was the laying of the foundations of that city, Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots, yet at this time presented as a mystery. It is worth realising that again attending to Greek philosophy the term politic means to live in a city. Also that Apart from earthly Jerusalem only New Jerusalem in the new heavens and the new earth do we find God Himself living in a city with his people. The Greeks coined the term politic to collectivise the understanding which arises from living in a city, peacefully and rationally; namely subject to law and reasoned debate. At this time of Augustine the invisible union of true religion and rebellious independent men finds its expression in the most significant expression of a mystery which was already at work from the time of Nimrod the first king named in Scriptures as the first king of the land called Babel.; namely mystery Babylon. Though Nimrod was minded to build a city, he also had his mind set on heaven, hence the tower of Babel, mans first attempt to enter heaven without Christ.

The tower which Nimrod built or caused to be built is so called not because it was on the geographical boundary of a land called Babel, but because God Himself divided men by tongues thereby setting the distinction between those who would become Israel and those who would become the nations. The city of Babylon built by Nebuchadnezzar was a city of great administration as well as a city of physical beauty and religious sophistication. The hanging gardens were a wonder of that ancient world. But the administrational ability through writing down the laws of the kings and the rulers was also a significant feature as well. In the end Darius the King of Babylon was himself snared by this system and found him kneeling at the opening to the lions den, declaring to Daniel, whom he cared for, “may your God preserve you Daniel”. The effect of this mystery of Babylonian determination to enter heaven itself by the works of their own hands began with Cain, who showed his true heart by choosing to bring to God a sacrifice of his labours which was cursed, even the fruit of the earth, which was cursed. God can no more receive a thing cursed as a sacrifice by the hands of men unless it is Christ Himself cursed by being hung on a tree, than fallen men can naturally receive Christ. The twist which lies at the root of this reality is that men perceive in their own hearts the need to draw to God’s attention the curse, but do not incline to seeing that God Himself also has His remedy for that curse. So in the end through a lack of trust in God men are ever willing to seek to storm heaven itself in order to demand of God, that which God has always been willing to give, even a remedy for sin and death. Yet this remedy was revealed in Eden to Adam and Eve in the form of the promised seed. So that we can easily understand that from the beginning rebellion against God has hinged on not trusting God. When we speak of Cain’s heart or else the heart of Nimrod or Nebuchadnezzar we need to understand that the understanding of their condition is a matter which belongs to God Himself. We are not their judge. Yet their condition is revealed for our sakes as a warning.

All the efforts of men are of course overshadowed by that which is truly wicked, which is the mind and ambition of the wicked one, even Satan. As long as he is able to compass heaven itself according to God’s command, men will always be both drawn as well as driven to enter heaven unlawfully in order to commune with those principalities and powers of wickedness in heavenly places, amongst which Satan is the chief. Herein lies the true heart of wickedness in some men, who not only grumble against God, but they knowingly lend themselves to an agreement which though unspoken, amounts to being represented in heaven rebelliously, through the wicked one who is still labouring to draw the angels away from God to himself. It is of course pure madness and vanity because in an instant Michael and his angels will wage war against him and he will be cast down to the earth. At this time, those who have laboured to enter heaven unlawfully will themselves be faced with the reality of having only Hell to enter into. Yet in their madness they will still persist right to the end. The full visibility of all this is a man standing in the Holy Place declaring blasphemies, changing times and seasons, making himself to be god and leading the whole world in rebellion against God openly.

Why draw into these things in this way? Why not just simply answer a question concerning wickedness and vanity with an affirmation of goodness, of God and Christ? The reason is because of the times in which we live, when all of Satan’s efforts to deceive man, as well as to utilise man’s discontent with God, will come to a fulfilment. Without men Satan would be incapable of doing anything beyond him self and a number of angels which followed him in rebellion in former times. He as well as they were judged at that time in their bodies as well as their ambitions being brought to nothing. The wicked one though he still possesses a body was destroyed internally and outwardly in appearance by fire from within him. The principalities and powers today which labour with him are similarly judged, yet they are still able to conduct their original purpose of God, which was to govern and direct the very elements of the universe according to God’s command. When men are drawn away from trusting in God they too look to their own bodies and minds to find the answers to their own condition and discontent. Philosophy by what ever measure will always lead men astray. This is why it is written that God has chosen not the wise of this world but the foolish in order to put those who are wise to foolishness.

The need for discernment is never greater pressed upon us than it is today. Unless we learn to deny our selves, a thing which we cannot do of ourselves, we will risk being a part of the problem of rebellion against God even though we will be certain because we love God and Christ that we could not be so inclined. Yet the same malady of discontent is evident today amongst those who are called and chosen as it has been in every day. The cross is not only the place whereon Christ was crucified for sin, but it is insofar as we realise the union, the same place whereon all men, in Christ’s body were also crucified unto death. Only union in Christ’s death can lead to walking in His resurrection life.

Vanity, vanity all is vanity.

Apart from obvious historical references or else so-called academic enquires there is nothing which cannot be understood by discernment. This gift of God is an ability to know without enquiry the nature of a thing. Is it of God or is it a man or else an angel? That which truly sets a man apart for God cannot be achieved through reason or enquiry alone. Unless God Himself draws a man to Christ, it is impossible to know Christ. This is something which we find hard to accept or perhaps to understand. This is because our hearts do not think as God Himself thinks and our minds are not taught so as to prove that acceptable and perfect will of God. Yet this is what is before us in Christ and it is a most precious reality. To have your mind renewed so as to be able to think as God thinks is truly astonishing. It is written that when we speak, we should speak as though we speak the Word of God. If this were not possible God could not have asked us to have such a mind. Yet God both asks and provides the Way to such a mind. It is the mind of Christ which we already posses if we have truly believed. If we want to succeed in obedience we will also have to have a mind to suffer. Only God knows the heart, we do not even know our own hearts unless God shows it to us for our edification, either to grant repentance or else to encourage. All things are so ordered by God that it is impossible to lay hold of Him by reason alone neither can the nature and substance of deception be understood by reason alone.

As Paul spoke to the Galatians, “who has bewitched you? Before whose eyes Christ was publically portrayed crucified! Are you now to complete in the flesh that which was begun in the spirit?” (Paraphrase). Now we know that Christ was crucified outside Jerusalem and not in Galatia. The presentation was the apostolic preaching of Christ crucified for sin, which to the inner man is the same as having witnessed it at Jerusalem. Such is the gospel when it is presented as it was taught to the apostles by Christ Himself. In such a presentation we are able to trust God, for though we do not know our own hearts yet we are able to trust God to complete what He has started in us. In this we will be set free from vain philosophy and attend to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Trusting God can of itself produce suffering because at times we may have no confidence at all that God does indeed love us. This may come about as a result of walking in the flesh or it may be as a result of the enemy of our souls. In such a mind trusting God becomes obedience which itself keeps us from becoming discontent with God Himself and acting independently so as to satisfy the demand of the flesh, resulting in our resisting suffering itself.

Augustine no doubt was perceived as being successful in resisting the Manichean as well as the later heresy of Pelagius. Pelagius is said to have repented of his early writings. It is a remarkable thing that this heresy of Pelagius has found little ground in either worldly thinking or else in church doctrines. Manichean thinking on the other hand has both prevailed in church doctrine through Roman Catholicism as well as influencing the wisdom of this world. Look no further than bi-polar disorder which is also called manic depression. The term manic is from the name of the man Mani whose writings laid the foundation of this heresy. Sigmund Freud bases his theories on a similar polar theory claiming that there is a conscious as well as subconscious mind, both of which are equal participants in the life of an individual. If you think about the outworking of this claim of Freud it is easy to realise that whatever comes out of the subconscious part is the same excuse of an individuals conduct as Manichean thinking which speaks of polar realities in which God is not sovereign, but where good and evil are polar opposites in outworking. In seemingly defeating this heresy of Mani Augustine in fact embraced an element of it or else a consequential outworking of it, which is seen and understood through Freud’s writings. It is that a man is not responsible for his actions as it arises from his subconscious mind so that he is incapable of doing other than his nature intended. Freud also postulated that the driving energies of the id both informs and expresses itself through libido. He also postulates male and female variants of these characteristics.

Augustine said “to hold anyone guilty of sin for not doing what he could not do belongs to the height of iniquity.” Augustine also postulated that libido is the outward evidence of self awareness which informs a person of their sinful nature.

God’s estimation of the heart is that every thought of man is continuously wicked and that it is only the Word of God which is able to separate spirit and soul, even the thoughts and the intentions of the heart. If we are born again we have been given a new heart. It is in this knowledge which we can take confidence and accept God’s estimation of all flesh and His remedy, even the Cross of Christ unto death.

Vanity, vanity all is vanity.

May the Lord deliver us from vain philosophy and reason?

I honestly have never studied the writings of Augustine and have only a cursory knowledge of some of the teachings and writings of the early church fathers. One only has so many hours in a day and a lot of commitments. So, I spend most of my time purely in the Word. I am not one that is much for studying various theological perspectives. twayneb.

Strange to say but I completely agree with you about how we use our time. Theological perspectives must in the end be a futile endeavour if we pursue understanding by that means. The church is so established on the earth that there are relatively few men who have been used by whatever means to contend for the faith in the way the early Fathers of the Catholic Church have been used. Even the great scholars who translated the bible into English, firstly in the 14th century and thereafter in various seasons, or else those men who were used to restore apostolic truths to the Church, were few in number. Much more prevalent are those who felt it necessary to follow these few men as a ministry of contention. It may well be that in divers times this contending was necessary of else beneficial. Today it really does seem that western culture itself has moved into a place where societal acceptance of rational goodness and decency, produced by the light of Christ, expressed in laws and a willingness to be constrained by these things, is all but passing away. Replacing it is pure humanistic rationalism on the one hand, and an apostate church on the other! Apart from these two things, their lies as always a remnant of God both within Israel and the Church, who are not able to bow the knee to men or a false gospel!

a question ,,do you think that agustine was ever bornagain

and im not sure if you answerd this question ,,,,do you think he changed his mind about his early teachings Brother Gary.

Yes brother I do believe that Augustine both knew and understood very well the reality of Christ. So I cannot easily imagine that he didn’t have a new life in Christ. Augustine knew how to contend for the gospel and much of his efforts laid a written basis for believing that he was born again.

To make sense of Augustine as a man as well as a bishop necessitates placing him in context of his day. This is almost an impossible task clearly as “his day” is long gone. Academic insights may help if you can believe what you are reading and understand the whole motive of the historical presenter. This too requires a full knowledge of the presenter as well and so it goes on into pure vanity or else confusion. What you can do however is ask God Himself to show you what it is that He would have you to do in this life, which may be mundane as well as sacred. You can also examine your time in Christ to date and ask yourself what the direction of your trust in Christ really is. In short we should know what is God’s calling in our lives beyond what is ordinary and necessary for the mundane. We need to know what is necessary for the sacred as well.

Grounded in this way as I have described it you may be able to see that Augustine was a man. That whilst he was profoundly well read and had a great intellect, as well as an ability to resist heresy in his day, one might be less inclined to hold him up as an icon and realise his humanity if you understood your own humanity as God sees it. This will almost certainly lead to brokenness in some measure. Brokenness before God seems to take at least two forms. Both require God’s intervention in our lives.

The Art Katz testimony which you shared regarding him being laid out in a moment of utter illumination of God is a good example of the first type. Art was going to preach on the subject of mercy. I imagine that by the time the Lord had done with him, he was quiet certain about the mercy of God. The Kleenex tissues are a testimony to that. What really strikes me though is how he felt it necessary to go to the meeting where he was going to preach on mercy of God by a different route so as not to have to come into contact with others on the way. This need speaks of God’s Holiness and so I believe that what Art saw through that small opening of the veil which separates men from the Glory of God, was God Himself. That is to say he saw the true Holiness of God. All such seeing produces a deep wrenching of the soul and exposes the man who so sees to his own true condition as a man. This is God’s mercy and it results in many tears. Not the shaking of the shoulders, but the breaking open of the heart before God. Something only God Himself is able to do.

The second kind of brokenness does produce as its initial effect the shaking of the shoulders. In that because we are weeping for ourselves our whole bodies become caught up in the event. This is when God grants us repentance, though for many seasons or few we have been hard hearted and wandered away from the One who gave His life for us, nevertheless God still grants repentance where it is truly sought. Having tasted the good things of God and having understood even for one hour that Christ has died for us to redeem us to the Father in Heaven, if we somehow or other come to prefer the filthy and unclean thing of the world, the flesh and in some cases the Devil, we may well come to a place where we need to repent. It may not take a great deal of denying God to produce such a need to repent, what we have been given by God may well produce a willingness to turn back very quickly.

Isaiah cried out before the altar when he said “Woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips, for mine eyes have seen the King, The Lord of Hosts”. This cry of Isaiah did not produce bitterness of the soul, but it did reveal to him his true condition. For Art Katz preaching on God’s mercy that day perhaps reflected that it was God’s intention to show mercy to more than one man; even those who were to hear a man. So that as Isaiah heard the words “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” perhaps Art needed this type of dealing of God. Only a man who has this certainty before God is able to say before God “Here I am. Send me!” More over only when this is true will God say “Go and tell this people!” (Isaiah 6:5-9)

The Apostle Peter was given much, to him alone was given revelation by the Father that Jesus was the Christ, The Son of the Living God, yet he denied Christ three times in a single night. The bitterness of his tears when he heard the cock crow speaks of the whole body being drawn into travail; it is a shaking of the shoulders, but the knowledge of the Lords words “when you return” uplifted him and turned him back without fear of men. Before this Peter boasted that he would give his life for the Lord. I’m sure he really meant it. What he couldn’t have realised was the inclination to self preservation when the risk to his life came. Afterwards Peter no doubt understood the deep reality of bitterness of the soul in light of Christ’s words to him.

The first (Isaiah) is wretchedness of the soul and the second (Peter) is bitterness of the soul. Both produce a good outcome. The one is God’s choosing the other is turning back. The one is the sin nature exposed by God (Woe is me); the other is the outworking of sin, by the will of the soul in an act of self preservation, to bear false witness. (I do not know Him).

Did Augustine change his mind about his early writing? I have no knowledge of it. But I can believe that God was able to do it. In hope I believe it. Turning back to the beginning of this post placing Augustine in the context of his day makes more sense than to try and judge him outright by his writings alone. Although I have said some things here which may well seem arrogant to some brethren I am certain that saying what you really believe to be true, even though to say so is to put yourself up for judgement, is better than completely rejecting something which may be beneficial both to working out ones own calling, as well as seeking to reveal something which attends to understanding the day we live in.

One thing which I am certain about is that the end of this age is already upon us, though its outworking in visibility is not yet seen. Whilst meditating on this answer to your questions Gary I was led to read 1 Thessalonians chapter five. Of all Paul’s letters this one deals more fully with the Lord’s return than any other letter. In thinking of the time in which we live and the growing emphasis on the end of the age, we have to remember that the balance, indeed the foundation for understanding the end of the age is not principally an understanding of the coming of the Man of Sin, but it is rather the hidden nature of the Lord’s return, proceeding the visibility of the Man of Sin. Only at the moment of his judgement and the judgement of the false prophet, will all men see Him coming as the veil of the cloud is removed.

In reading chapter five of 1 Thessalonians we get a clear exhortation by the Apostle of that Church, as to the substance of the confidence he had, namely that the Thessalonians were themselves walking as children of light. In this letter The Lord is described as coming as a thief in the night. Yet the Thessalonians were not only children of light but were also walking as children of light. It is therefore easy to understand why Paul is confident in them. It also reveals something of the nature of the Lord’s return, which in the first instance is not seen except by those who are awake, walking in the light. To everyone else Jesus is unseen as He takes that which is his possession, as though He were a thief coming in the night so as not to be seen. This is of course only “as a thief” in the night and not "a thief" in the night. We are all His righteous possession so we should expect to be taken by Him. Yet if we sleep and do not walk in the light as He is in the light, we will find that walking in the darkness of this hour in which we live, will prove to result in being left behind. Later Paul revisits this theme in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 because some were disturbing the faith of the Thessalonians by reporting that the Lord had already returned in the hidden way described in 1 Thessalonians chapter five. Clearly if there were no substance to the claim that it may be possible to be left behind at the Lord’s return no one could have been disturbed at all. It is also significant to us today to recognise the same test or criteria which will mark or else prove that hour of the Lord’s return in the clouds before He is become visible to all men.

Augustine as with many of the early Catholic Fathers was not set on a course of Apostolic unity of faith, he was building something which is at once a mystery and first reveales itself in Cain outside of the Garden of Eden, but which was also visible as a political city in the day of John as seen in Revelations, yet still had to be connected both as a mystery and as a city. Only in this connection do we see the rise of The Mother of Harlots. The mystery is mystery Babylon, the city is Babylon the Great. What this city was called in that day or else in this day is in truth of no consequence. It is the unity of purpose in the working of Satan which needs to be discerned if we are to hold our confidence in the Lord. If we do not discern the times in which we live, we will be shaken and disturbed today as were the Thessalonians at risk of being disturbed in their day. 1 Thessalonians chapter five is a wonderful passage of Scripture because in it is expressed an apostolic hope and confidence in Christ working in us to bring us safely to Himself in the clouds as well as demonstrating what the true apostolic heart is; confidence in Christ and a willingness to serve and warn according to sound doctrine and truth, with love.

andrew ,i feel some times i would like to copy what you have writting here in sermon index and put it in a book ,,,,have you by the grace of god ever concidred writing a book Brother Gary.

You may be surprised to know Gary that I have never preached in a church, nor have I taught in any context whatsoever, nor have I written anything other than a few letters to certain brethren privately. The posts made here on SI represent the only writing in any public sphere. You appear to have a high opinion of me Gary so you ask or believe that what I have shared here on SI must somehow come from many nights of prayer and fasting. This is not true however, though I do understand why you would be gracious to think it. I did once in the mid 80’s undertake the writing of a book called “A Question of Salvation”. After 5 years work I shelved it in the realisation that it was a mere vanity. I do not fear men. God I do fear and am well cognisant that what we write or say is a matter to be judged. I also always write with a purpose, what some here on SI term an agenda. Inteligence is dispised and truth is become a milking cloth soaking up everything, which in the end stinks.

I used to be extremely interested in this subject and spent many years debating it but now I do not even consider this topic a real issue at all.

Let us look at a few things that God in Christ has already accomplished for us and in us.

We have been reconciled to God.

Romans 5:10, "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

2 Cor. 5:19, "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

We are now a new creation in Christ.

2 Cor. 5:17, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

We are IN Christ

1 Cor. 1:30, "But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"

"It is because of Him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who for us has become wisdom from God, as well as our righteousness, sanctification, and redemption." (ISV)

We have been crucified, buried and raised through Him. Our old nature is completely dead. We are freed from sin.

Romans 6:1-23

All of our sins have been totally removed.

Col. 2:12-14, "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."

Heb. 8:12, "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

WE are Complete in Him.

Col 2:10, "And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:"

We are Righteous.

2 Cor. 5:21, "For He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."

We are Holy.

1 Cor. 6:19, "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

God has given us EVERYTHING we need. Nothing is lacking.

2 Peter 1:2-4, "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Now I could go on and on concerning all what God in Christ has already accomplished for us and in us but this should be enough to get you to at least consider these divine facts.

Under the New Covenant, God has already totally dwelt with the sin issue once and for all. He has also totally dwelt with the sinful nature. It is dead and buried. We now have Christ Himself living within us. We now have a new clean heart and a new spirit.

So now the only and real issue is, do we through repentance and faith become a real and active participant in what God has already accomplished for us and in us?

No one can ever change these divine facts but if we do not embrace daily what God in Christ has already accomplished for us and in us, we will never experience the reality of living by Christ's Life within us.

*edit spelling

I used to be extremely interested in this subject and spent many years debating it but now I do not even consider this topic a real issue at all. tuc.

Your list of the Lord’s accomplishments is edifying and good to read. It must be true as well that to simply debate a subject which is in any case dealt with through the true knowledge of God and Christ, is futile if we have that knowledge ourselves. Below is a repeat of an element of what was posted earlier in this thread. I have expanded it a little to make sense of why there is a real issue to be considered, though anyone of us who love the Lord could be delivered from all foolishness in an instant if it pleased God to do so, I have met very few believers over the years who have been dealt with in this way. It seems to me that God Himself has ordered things according to His own purposes and at the heart of this lies an issue of accountability before God when all men, including all believers will have to give an account to Christ. As far as I am able to understand this, the only people who will not be judged in the future are they that have judged themselves now. They are the faithful and the few who are able to stand before Christ at His coming and receive the words “well done My good and faithful servant”. Any one of us could be in that number if we are called of God, yet only those who themselves have chosen to deny themselves and like Christ Himself, take their cross, will be able to follow after the Lord, and will thereby be found faithful as He was faithful through obedience.

Why draw into these things in this way? Why not just simply answer a question concerning wickedness and vanity with an affirmation of goodness, of God and Christ? The reason is because of the times in which we live, when all of Satan’s efforts to deceive man, as well as to utilise man’s discontent with God, will come to a fulfilment. Without men Satan would be incapable of doing anything beyond him self and a number of angels which followed him in rebellion in former times. He is already judged in his body as well as having his ambitions brought to nothing. The Lord overcame him through the cross and his end is certain.

He is called “the Prince of the Power of the Air” not the “Prince of the Air”. It is the power of the air and not the air itself. The air belongs to God, but the power over it is given to principalities who themselves must give an account. On the other hand he is also called “the god of this world” or the “ruler of this world”. The heavens and the earth belong to God, but the world is Satan’s dominion. Unless we get this we will have no real understanding to base our warfare on. Neither will we be able to resist contending with men on matters which in truth belong to God. Yet contend some must according to God’s calling, both men and angels because of the rebellion of men not the rebellion of Satan who is already defeated and laid waste by the work of the Cross. When men are drawn away from trusting in God they too look to their own bodies and minds to find the answers to their own condition and discontent. Philosophy by what ever measure will always lead men astray. This is why it is written that God has chosen not the wise of this world but the foolish in order to put those who are wise to foolishness. Yet the gospel of grace has itself been philosophised even by those who are soundly saved. It is the subtly of the wicked one that where he is able he will use this schism of reliance upon the flesh by men, not angels, which all of us can fall into and thereby many do not believe even in the grace of God as a sufficiency for walking. So that on the one hand many saints become individualistic and lawless resulting in Christ Himself being impugned amongst unbelievers.

The need for discernment is never greater pressed upon us than it is today. Unless we learn to deny our selves, a thing which we cannot do of ourselves, we will risk being a part of the problem of rebellion against God even though we will be certain because we love God and Christ that we could not be so inclined. Yet the same malady of discontent is evident today amongst those who are called and chosen as it has been in every day when saints do not take up their cross. The cross is not only the place whereon Christ was crucified for sin, but it is insofar as we realise the union, the same place whereon all men, in Christ’s body were also crucified unto death. Only union in Christ’s death can lead to walking in His resurrection life. Only the resurrection life in Christ has overcome the world. If we desired to overcome the world as well we would not only have to be in Christ by faith, but we would also have to walk in His strength and life.

If in our minds we do not think as God Himself thinks , being yet untutored we risk becoming apathetic. Yet in a renewed mind are we able to prove that acceptable and perfect will of God. If we do not have this mind to overcome sin, the flesh and the devil, we will follow the heart which having once again come under the dominion of the body will be led astray. Yet this is what is before us in Christ, not only a new heart but a renewed mind also. To have your mind renewed so as to be able to think as God thinks is truly astonishing. It is written that when we speak, we should speak as though we speak the Word of God. If this were not possible God could not have asked us to have such a mind. Yet God both asks and provides the Way to such a mind. It is the mind of Christ in the spirit, which we already posses but it must also be the natural mind having been brought into subjection through obedience to the calling of God, which is taught by God Himself. Therein lays the substance of faith, that having been saved, we would make certain our salvation through this obedience.