Christians Do Not Quarrel About Religion ~ Jacob Boehme

Christians Do Not Quarrel About Religion
Jacob Boehme

Genuine people who are reborn in Christ’s Spirit are in the simplicity of Christ and have no quarrel with anyone about religion. They have enough interior strife with the bestial, evil flesh and blood. They consider themselves great sinners and fear God, for their sins are manifest and stand under judgment. The wrath of God reproaches them in their own eyes, but the love of Christ presses through and drives out the chaos, as day follows night.

For the godless, however, their sins rest in the sleep of death and sprout forth in the abyss and bring forth the fruits of hell. The Christianity in Babel quarrels about knowledge: how one should serve, honor, and know God. They teach that whoever is not united with them on all points of knowledge and opinion is not a Christian, but rather a heretic.

Christians, however, have no sect. They can dwell in the midst of the sects, even appear in their worship services and yet cling to no sect. They have only a single knowledge, which is Christ within. They seek only one path, which is that they always live and act rightly. They place all knowing and willing in the life of Christ. They sigh and wish always that only God’s will be done within themselves, and that the kingdom of God may be revealed within.

Therefore I say that all is Babel that bites and quarrels over the letter. The letters stand all in one root, which is the Spirit of God, just as the various flowers all stand in the earth and all grow next to one another. None bites the other because of color, scent or taste. They permit the sun, along with the rain and wind and heat and cold, to do with them as they wish, yet each one grows in its essence and characteristic. So it is also with the children of God. They have various gifts and knowledge, but are all from one Spirit. They rejoice with one another in the great miracles of God and thank the Most High in His wisdom. Why should they quarrel about the One in whom they live and are, and of whose being they themselves are?

It is the greatest foolishness in Babel that the devil has made the world quarrel about religion, so that they quarrel about opinions, about the letter. The kingdom of God, however, is not in any opinion, but in power and in love.

http://jacobboehmeonline.com/home

The mystics truly pierce through all the appearances of nature, and learned to see God in all, and how they sought to bring men in very deed to be their All.

Hey brother wayneman,
The thought of Babel and confusion came to me yesterday and I wanted to meditate on it some more. However when I searched for an article that went over it more thoroughly I could not find one. So I am extremely grateful for this article that you posted.

Thank you!

In German "Babel" is also the word for "Babylon," so there are prophetic connotations here. Boehme unfortunately had some first-hand experience with the Babylon religious system. He was tried for heresy, run out of town and chased from village to village by functionaries of the state Lutheran Church. In every book he wrote he has quite a bit to say about Babel.

Debate and confrontation were things I relished in until God one day broke all my ambition for them. He did this by allowing me a glimpse at my own spiritual biopsy. When God shows a man his true colors apart from the grace of Christ, something revolutionary happens: the will to fight suddenly leaves him; the urge to win each and every theological tussle dissipates; attention is diverted from the faults of others to the remedy of his own malady; and God's grace becomes magnified and infinitely prized. The acquisition of this grace precludes any and all preoccupation with the spiritual business of others, other than seeking how to be a greater blessing to them and a more magnanimous source of edification. Anything that does not lend to a healthier and more prolific measure of edification becomes eschewed.

Brother Paul

Many are called, as the Apostle Paul gave commandment to Timothy and Titus, etc., to "Protect the flock.

I knew that someone would trot out the "ministry of the watchman" motif. But I think Boehme is talking about a state of the heart. Yes, Christians will confront error sometimes because they have to, not because they enjoy it. That's the problem: too many religious people actually *enjoy* fighting.

by PaulWest
Yes, but there is a way to protect that does not involve a public tar-and-feathering. A wolf can be brought down with a single gunshot. Sloppy machine-gun raking and deafening hand grenades are not necessary.

Amen! Brother, can I get another Amen? :)

Discernment is the most lacking quality in today's Church and that is why He warned us that "most" will fall away because of false teachers, false prophets, etc.

Most "defrocking" I encounter here is unsanctioned and dealt through an outburst of fleshly pride, like Paul in this case. The only difference I see is that Paul later apologized. Most do not, but rather go on to justify the reviling.

There is a way to defrock, to rebuke, to expose and reprove that is sanctioned by the Holy Spirit. But you have to earn the right to engage it; the timing and spirit of it must be sanctioned by God. Otherwise it backfires and exposes your own flesh. You may not notice it, but others will.

I'm being read incorrectly - but that's O.K.

I hope this is more clear.

The point I got from Jacob Boehme is that in the Kingdom of God, there is no controversy. There is no such thing as kingdom controversy. Wherever there is controversy it is not the Kingdom. Two people who are truly filled with the Holy Spirit cannot possibly oppose one another. Christ does not oppose Himself.

A reprobate is, by definition, any person who warrants reproving; I used this term specifically to umbrella every category we can think of - from the gamut of doctrinal error all the way to full-blown heresy and rebellion.

I believe with all of my heart that, the "longsuffering" he is referring to here, is that it takes a lot out of a person to have to "reprove, rebuke or defend sound doctrine".

Ironically, these are people who quote scripture prolifically and seem to have all the answers, but end up spraying the verses everywhere with indiscriminate sloppiness. They never hit the wolf. It's just a lot of impressive noise and smoke and dirt flying up.

I doubt much that Ravenhill, Katz and their ilk ever enjoyed coming against heresies and false prophets/prophecies. Not at all. It ages a person and takes it's toll, as it did with the Apostle Paul. He received more persecution than any man in The Word.

Just a thought about "protecting the flock"

I think there are many that try to "over-protect" the flock. Some times I wonder if the young in the flock was allowed to see the real deal, and taught instead how to deal with the hard things, there would not be so many babies in Christ.

Just some I gather when I was young in the Lord, I wanted the real deal, but felt it was "covered" for my "protection" :)

I agree with your words Grant, & I also do appreciate the honesty of the other members.
Sometimes, myself, I've found it interesting how God's body is made up of different parts - the prophet, the teacher, etc.
I remember Zac Poonen being asked (how he said), someone in his congregation asked him if he thought he should go to a Benny Hinn convention. He said, "sure, go a head, but I won't be going." NoW, I respect that of Mr Poonen; but, I also respect the man who "in the Spirit of God" will thunder out judgments against false techers.
That's where I'm at these days.

[by Yeshuasboy
I remember Zac Poonen being asked (how he said), someone in his congregation asked him if he thought he should go to a Benny Hinn convention. He said, "sure, go a head, but I won't be going." NoW, I respect that of Mr Poonen; but, I also respect the man who "in the Spirit of God" will thunder out judgments against false techers. That's where I'm at these days.]

I'm sorry but I'm speechless that Mr Poonen would tell the other person to go ahead and attend Benny Hinn convention intead of warning him.

Common sense dictates that when you see your child go down the wrong path (Benny Hinn is a false pastor), you will prevent him/her from doing so. THe most basic discernment only is needed for such things.

I cannot imagine people like Paul Washer or Tim Conway or Leonard Ravenhill or John MacArthur agreeing to such things.

ETA: If this is how my pastor would behave if I ask for advise, I would think twice of attending his church unless I'm specifically told by God to stay there.

Even from my own personal experience, God has ever pulled me out of this type of scenario before (and the only reason I thought I should stay there was out of compassion to those that were seeking help there and I thought I had enough 'knowledge/safety' as I was then following people like Paul Washer).

Dear learn, I don't think that I should hold that against Mr Poonen (not that you asked that I do so).
I appreciate your comment.
Here's why I think that - God gives different gifts to His children. The Scriptures say, that "His sheep hear His voice, & they follow me (The Christ).
Now, there was, I'm sure, more to the conversation than what I wrote, or what even Mr Poonen stated in his message. I don't think we should hold that against Mr Poonen though.
Now, I heard this message from Zac hear on S.I. I can't recall, however, what the message was titled. Perhaps, someone else here knows. I heard it some months back, maybe even a year ago.
There is a time for everything under the sun.
I think the body of Christ should hold up all God's ministers in prayer. Some ministers of the Truth, only teach Christ, & Him crucified; others on Christ, & false teachers & doctrines...I don't think we should prize one more above the other, although at times we may be more refreshed by one more than another, according to our state of grace.
I hope what I said helps clarify a bit more.
I think if teachers, prophets, prayer warriors, elders, & bishops worked more together for the glory of God, it would do the Body more good.

I'm sorry Yeshuaboy. I just do not agree with you. This is protecting the flock. It has nothing to do with the gifts. Ignoring to mention that Benny Hinn is a false teacher and why it is so when specifically asked for advise on whether to attend, just shocks me. Ultimately, it is up to the person whether to attend--but to not warn or give the reasons why he should be careful, is just plain wrong and unscriptural.

Now, as you mention, there may be more to the conversation. I really hope this is so. But if just base on what you said, then I don't agree with you at all.

Some here have been so adamant on warning against Catholics, Mormons, Todd Bentley etc. Would they then keep silent on Benny Hinn. So why the difference. Is Benny Hinn real compared to the TOdd Bentley, Catholics etc. If one chooses to say against Catholics for example, then why agree on Benny Hinn. What about Joseph Prince then. I've ever attended his services way before he became famous, when he was still renting part of a building to conduct his services and way before I was saved--and yet I can tell you something--I did not like the emphasis on riches etc--even for an unsaved person that had so little to none of bible knowledge, I could tell that it was not right. So if somebody were to ask me now for advise, should my answer be 'you can go ahead but I won't, knowing full well that Joseph Prince is false--have I done right in God's eye.

As you mentioned, some people are called to teach Christ, some are called to warn against false teachers etc--I have no problem--but bear in mind this case--this is somebody coming up to him personally for advise. Its not a Sunday sermon given to the crowd.

I can accept Paul West and Jesus-is-God's viewpoints but if Mr Poonen just said that you can go ahead and attend but I won't without more 'clarification'/warnings, then to me that's just plain wrong. I suspect there may be more than that as you yourself clearly mentioned that there may be more to the conversation. Thus, maybe its best that we seek clarification on this matter with him instead of 'smearing his name' without knowing the full situation. If we cannot/are not willing to find out the full situation, maybe its best to stop discussing this matter.

ETA: 1 thing I will say as someone who needs more spiritually matured Christians to guide me---it will be hard for me to seek advise from those who have no problem in keeping 'mum' on a specific thing/person (although they know that the person teaches false stuff) when I personally ask them. How do you expect me to trust this person then when I need advise, knowing they will just not warn me of the dangers which I will/may fall into.

That is 1 reason why I love Jesus-is-God. Her willingness to stick her neck out to help others at the expense of herself.

That's why I am taking this carefully, lol.
I'm not smearing his name, if that statement was directed towards me friend. But, I do know how easy it is to get going down a path of lamb-bashing myself.
I don't have time to go through all the Zac Poonen messages here, but perhaps a moderator or two here could find it easily?
Maybe even Mr Poonen has a man in his congregation that is gifted in discernment from heaven, & therefore he leaves those matters to him?
The fact is, there are many things that go on in his ministry that I don't know about. And, the other fact is, I know what I heard - and I heard it on a message here on this website (a Zac Poonen message).
Now, if a man or woman has the gift of discerment more than another, the one with the gift shouldn't look down on the other that doesn't have it.
Let us be clothed in all humility, esteeming others better than ourselves. If a brother makes a mistake, let us pray for him, and go about it the way of Christ would have us.
The Father gives good gifts to His children to those that ask.
Thank you for your comment.

Here's a beautiful exhortation that I would do well to live by myself consistently and steadfastly:
"And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
Now, we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feeble-minded, support the weak, be patient with all men.
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men." - 1Thess 5:12 - 15

The original post is about how Christians treat one another, not how we deal with false teachers. Boehme himself wrote countless phillipics against "Babel" and its "hireling shepherds." Denouncing enemies of the gospel like Alexander the Coppersmith and Benny Hinn is one thing; but on this forum we have seen Christians fight to the death over Calvin vs. Arminius, and consign one another to hell over eternal sonship vs. imputed sonship, etc. There is a difference between exposing error and brawling in defense of a pet doctrine.

The world being the way it is, it is often necessary to refute error. But Boehme is talking about an attitude of the heart. Some people just enjoy fighting about religion, especially when internet anonymity prevents them from suffering social consequences for loutish behavior. And we can become so obsessed with correcting the doctrinal opinionation of others that we forget to keep our own spiritual house in order.

Thanks for reminding me wayneman what the original post is about. I like many of Jakob's writings myself. However, before signing off, I'd like to go back to what Learn & I were discussing for a minute.
Now, I say this in defence to our text about Mr Poonen. Now, Mr Poonen says that he warns people of false teachers, etc, although in the case I brought up, he told this certain person to go (because they apparently seemed, I gather, that they wanted to go, to this convention. Now, the fact is, is that we don't know why Mr Poonen would do such a thing. Well, I think I may have the answer:
I would suggest that if anyone thinks he is at fault for doing such a thing, should first listen to his sermon on "How To Escape Deception", which is the podcast section somewhere.
(I don't know how to say this, cause I'm very tired at the moment), but the truth is we are surrounded by deception, great deception. Now, God has allowed this. Is God evil that He would allow such a thing to take place in the midst of His people? The answer of course is 'no'. So, perhaps, Mr Poonen told the lad or lady to go, to see what that person's true spiritual condition was, to see what that person's state of heart was, so he could apply a cure when he or she returned from the conference. Anyway,that's just a thought, & wayneman, sir, I'll leave it at that.
Keep up with those edifying posts wayneman - indeed, it is best to keep our hearts fixed & rooted in Christ, than look around to see what new thing is happening in today's "christian" culture. When you have the real deal (Jesus), & He has you, all these other things are nothing in comparison.

Post reedited several times

Yeshuaboy,
Let's put this to rest.I can sense you do not want to debate. Neither do I. So let's close this side-debate, shall we. And forgive one another if we have hurt each other. What about it ? :)

I'm very happy to see this thread come to a peaceful resolution. There is certainly a time and season for correction, rebuking, reproving. Ideally, it should be the Holy Spirit who does the correcting; if God Himself corrects it can be a life-transforming experience for the believer. This is why when people ask if it is okay for Christians to dance, drink wine, celebrate Christmas, play the lotto, smoke, go to Christian "rock concerts", watch Benny Hinn, etc. I like to commit the tutelage into the hands of the Holy Spirit and not stand in the way with my own convictions, for if the person refrains it will because he or she looked to me, to the convictions of a fallible man and therefore the transformation will be not genuine. But if God Himself shows them, He will irreversibly change their life and they will forever "know" for themselves that it is wrong. The change will be intrinsic, genuine and everlasting. My job, therefore, is to point them to God, to allow God to do all the reconstructing, convicting, persuading.

There are circumstances, however, that warrant human intervention where we can automatically know the mind of God as disclosed through His Word: obviously things like fornication, theft, adultery, soothsaying, lying, inebriation, homosexuality, etc. are all wrong and we can directly reprove these sins in the authority of God. But others are not so black and white and we need to send the person to the Lord to hear for themselves.

Wearing earrings, for example, or choosing to celebrate a holiday or go dancing...these are best left up to God for the final say, for Him to speak directly into the conscience rather than the preacher whose convictions may have been hammered out on a denominational anvil. I always say, "I personally do (or do not) have a problem with it, but you need to ask God yourself. He is your Savior, and He lives in you. He will tell you Himself, if you let Him."

This is why advanced men of God like Zac Poonen will not stop a person from going to see Benny Hinn. He will instead tell the believer that he cannot endorse his ministry. This is real wisdom.

As far as issuing public rebukes on SermonIndex, the moderators and leadership administration ask that forum participants refrain from this. When and if it is time for a rebuke, the Holy Spirit will provoke one of us to do what is necessary. It is not anyone else's job. We appreciate all the registered members for following this guideline.

Your servant in Christ,

Paul

PaulWest,
Feel free to delete this post but I just have something to say.

Paul Washer related this story in 1 of his sermons. A couple came to him and asked him whether they should bring/allow their daughter to see a Britney Spears concert.
Paul Washer's reply to them with a smile on his face was that they were so lost.

Perhaps something to think about?

With that I will bow out of this thread.

Greg,
You read Paul Washer wrong. When he said this, it was clear to me that he knew they did not have discernment. I can't remember which sermon it was but perhaps somebody here would remember. I think it was to a small group of people. When you actually see the clip on how he relate this story to another group, I'm sure you will think differently.

I know I said I wanted to bow out of this thread, but I cannot let Paul Washer's name be maligned like that. Not especially when you have not seen the clip.