Mormonism, Goose Bumps and the Great Falling Away by Jennifer LeClaire

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sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

I was once married to a bona fide, white-shirt-and-tie, bike-riding, garment-wearing Mormon missionary. And not just any Mormon missionary—a master soul-winner for this Christianesque cult.

Of course, I had no idea when I met him that he was even a Mormon. All I knew was he had just returned from a two-year mission to Europe, he never said an unkind word about anybody and he had a sweet heart.

He seemed righteous enough—more righteous than me. But I wasn’t born-again and I didn’t know the difference between a false religion that incorporated Jesus into the mix and true Christianity. My Southern Baptist grandfather tried to warn me, but I just couldn’t see the harm in a Jesus-centered religion. So I ended up marrying a Mormon.

I learned plenty about the secret rituals that Mormons practice, but that’s not what I want to share with you. You can read about bizarre Mormon beliefs in many places on the Internet these days. What I learned being married to a Mormon—a Mormon who later abandoned his wife and baby to have an affair with a woman just more than half his age in a foreign country—was the danger of false religions.

Doctrines of Demons
We know that there are deceitful spirits and teachings of demons that will lead some to depart from the faith (see 1 Tim. 4:1). We know that there are false prophets and teachers who proclaim Jesus but don’t truly serve Him (see 2 Peter 2:1). We know that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light to deceive people (see 2 Cor. 11:14). And we know that some are perverting the grace of God into sensuality (see Jude 1:4).

We know all of this and yet some in the body of Christ—born-again, blood-bought and yes, even tongue-talking—are embracing aspects of false religions. It’s a subtle deception and one about which I will continue sounding the alarm until Jesus tells me not to. I’ll keep sounding the alarm and speaking this truth in love in hopes that some will avoid the great falling away.

What I learned being married to a Mormon is how these deceitful spirits work. My ex-husband used to urge me to read the Book of Mormon cover to cover and then pray about whether or not it was true. Mormons promise a “burning in the bosom” will come as a confirmation when you release that prayer.

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Mormons also cite James 1:5 to back up their carnal claim with actual Scripture: “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.” Mormons teach that any positive feelings you have after that prayer are from the Holy Spirit and any negative feelings are not from the Holy Spirit. And if you don’t get the “burning in the bosom,” they suggest you pray more sincerely until you do.

Don’t Follow the Goosebumps
This demonstrates a grave danger. We cannot base truth on how we feel, whether it’s a goose bump, an emotional high or a burning in the bosom. Proverbs clearly states, “He who trusts in his own heart is a fool, but whoever walks wisely will be delivered” (Prov. 28:26). And God warns us that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (see Jer. 17:9).

I believe an unbalanced pursuit of supernatural experiences opens the door to demon-inspired encounters and emotions that validate a person’s erroneous theology. Some in the prophetic movement claim to hold regular conversations with angels, which become the source of their prophecies and sermons. Yes, angels are prophetic messengers but most often the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us into all truth Himself. And our sermons should be based on the Word of God—and our prophecies from the Spirit of God—not mystical revelation that doesn’t line up with the Bible.

Chasing the supernatural above the God of the supernatural is not the only example of emotionalism gone amuck. The prosperity gospel can also get out of balance. I’ve read about merchandising evangelists leading people into financial devastation after a so-called supernatural promise that gave them false faith to believe their debt would be canceled in 30 days. Yes, I believe in supernatural debt cancellation but there is an abuse of this gimmick. People fall for it because they are in their emotions rather than in the Word of God. They tap into the hype and the shyster taps into their pocketbooks.

Idolatrous Prophecies Abound
If you’ve been following my work for any length of time, you know that I’m all about prophetic ministry—true prophetic ministry. It’s vital in this hour. But false prophecies that tap into the idolatry in people’s hearts may cause them to get married to the wrong person, get divorced against God’s will, quit their jobs and pursue other wrong moves because of a “feeling” they got when the heard a prophecy. Yes, God gave us emotions but our emotions should be submitted to the Word of God and, I might add, some common sense.

Above all, my concern is a greater deception that leaves people with greater troubles than just bankrupcy, divorce or talking with angels of light. My concern is that exalting “feelings” over the Word of God will lead many into eternal fire. “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect,” Jesus said. “See, I have told you beforehand” (Matt. 24:24-25).

See, I am telling you beforehand. The New Testament is overflowing with warnings not to be deceived. Even with the Word of God, we are charged to rightly divide it (see 2 Tim. 2:15). We are in the last days. Can we really afford to let charismatic preachers tell us what the Word says? Shouldn’t we be students of the Word ourselves? We all have a responsibility to guard ourselves from deception and staying rooted in the Word of God is the best way I know to do that in this hour. It may not give you goose bumps, but it will set you free. Amen.

from: http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/34193-mormonism-goose-bumps-and-the-great-falling-away

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sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

It is very much a sign of the times that people have to be warned of the dangers of Mormonism. We are only weeks away from the possibility of a high ranking member of this cult becoming the most powerful man in the world. What blindness has come over Christendom? I could care less about the political systems but what this does speak to is the realization that when the anti-christ does come, he will most likely be voted into power by professing Christians. In these last days it seems that discernment has fled in favor of cultural bias, but then perhaps it only highlights that cultural bias has shaped Christendom much more than Jesus has and this is just another indication that the world has triumphed over what passes for the church........... bro Frank

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MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Well if we all truly believe God is still in control, maybe there is some reason God has put him into the position to possibly run this country. Is God becoming limited in his resources? Never heard one peep from any Christians in Massachusetts when he was Governor Romney. God calls believers to be disciples and preach the good news to all nations. The reason is, because God wants all who are far off to know Him. If God did not work in non-believers, how would someone become a believer? I was once a non but now I am one! I will never try and figure out why God does what he does, my job is to have faith in whatever he does, that it will work for the good for all who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. It's easy! do you love God? do you believe he is still in control? if so then, whatever happens at election time, we that love him must believe it's for the good. Most Christians have a very hard time thinking outside the box, I used to also, but I was delivered from that bondage, God used a Donkey, what faith was the Donkey? Now wouldn't it be funny if he used Romney, and Romney was able to get a grip back on this nation, and at the same time bring us all back together as one, and also stop the racial division this country has suffered from for the past 4 years? Lots of folks could be eating a plate full of crow, never know. Of course all that was said above was from an optimistic Christian, that has been delivered from the box. :)

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sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

I read that even the Southern Baptist Convention has reframed from calling Mormonism a cult. They have done this out of defference to Romney whom the SBC feels compelled to support. Such is the compromise of the largest protestant body in N. America.

On the flip side in the sae article evangelical black pastors are urging their congregations to sit this election out. These pastors cannot support Obama with his support f gay marriages. Yet they cannot support Romney because he is a Mormon. And historically the Mormons have regarded the blacks as bearing the curse if Cain. The Mormons have been racist.

At this point I would say the black evangelical pastors are more consistent in their walk with Christ. I cannot but help but respect them. They are to be commended. For sure they put many white evangelicals to shame.

I am not trying to be racial here. But given the fact that these black pastors are neither supporting Obama not Romney. One has to ask who has the better understanding of fleeing Babylon?

Bearmadter.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

We are only weeks away from the possibility of a....member of this cult becoming the most powerful man in the world. What blindness has come over Christendom?

I could care less about the political systems but...

...what this does speak to is the realization that when the anti-christ does come, he will most likely be voted into power by professing Christians.

...it only highlights that cultural bias has shaped Christendom much more than Jesus...

...and this is just another indication that the world has triumphed over what passes for the church.

Frank, I strongly disagree with what you are implying here.

You claim to care less about the political systems of this world. And yet, you are the one who enters nearly every conversation on politics. Yet, instead of merely discussing these issues, you often use it as an opportunity to pass off the faith, integrity or motivation of other believers who don't agree with your view.

You have no right (or "prophetic authority") to insinuate or make a claim that believers here (or elsewhere) who feel the liberty to vote and might feel that Mitt Romney is the better choice in November are "blind" or will be susceptible to the anti-Christ. I have read your words about such matters often -- tested them -- and feel that they are prejudiced by something other than Scriptural truth.

Brother, you have to get past this. There are going to be good and strong believers who might believe that Mitt Romney is a better choice for the next four years. We are not choosing a pastor or spiritual leader. We are not choosing Mormonism. We are not choosing war. We are not choosing to neglect the poor. We are not apt to "vote the anti-Christ into power."

Frank: Many of us ARE believers. We believe in the gifts of the Spirit. We read, study and know His Word. We long to see the Lord move in His Church. We want to see the sleeping and slumbering Church awaken. We want to see Christ-centered revival. Many of us have been "rejected" and persecuted for our faith in Christ Jesus and desire to see a return to Christ in American churches where Christ might be a stranger.

We are not worshiping at the altar of politics or government. We feel no allegiance to a political party, politician, candidate or government program. We are not engrossed with the "things of this world." We aren't constructing or polishing an idol of "America" in our homes. We also see this world through the lens of God's Word and much, much prayer.

Yet, you have generalized those of us who might vote or feel that one candidate is a better choice than the other. This is not just unwise, it is wrong. You may find that you are bearing false witness against us with your many words because of your own views about this.

Please season your words with enough grace to know that many of us might not agree with you. This isn't personal. Also, you should remember that disagreeing with you or what you think is not the same with disagreeing with God or His Word. You should be careful about the insinuations that you included above.

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MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Great post Chris! You know the old saying "may the best man win" let us believers say "may Gods chosen man win". I find it almost impossible for many Christians, to not have a little fleshly thinking in their favorite for president, which one is going to benefit my needs the most. See God see's above our own personal needs, he see's what will benefit the world as a whole, not just person or one country. There has never been a perfect President, and there will never be one, but even one of a different faith or race from the past ones, can in a world God still controls be useful in Gods agenda. If we have faith in God, we must have faith in his decisions, and I would be real careful in reaching any opinions of Gods work, unless of course you don't believe God is still in control.

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Miccah Sep 24, 2012

chris.

I believe that your assessment of Frank in wrong.

We know that in the last days, Christians (elect) will be deceived, if possible. We know that most everyone will lift the anti-christ up as some sort of quasi savior. We know that many Christians will say to the Lord, "Lord , Lord" and He will say back, "I never knew you".

Chris. This is not about spiritual leader that you keep speaking about. This is not about what professing Christians feel about politics. This is about Christians falling into deception BECAUSE of worry about the world and the things of the world. This worry will make Christians believe that it is ok to support a Mormon to lead them.

What has the Church come to that we will so willingly accept a Mormon as President because we don't like the "other guys" policies? Foolishness, ignorance, deception... You name it. 10 years ago we would NEVER even be having this conversation. Christians would laugh off the notion of even considering voting for a Mormon for President. How far we have fallen.

No Chris, voting for a Mormon is NOT right or the answer. Most Christians today are lost in deception. If someone votes for a Mormon for President, I personally and scriptually question you and your Christianity.

If Christians have a problem with me questioning your Christianity, so be it. The question to you is, if it is unacceptable for a concerned brother in Christ to question you and your choices to support a cult/satanist leader, what would you consider "acceptable" for other Christians to question you on then?

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MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Miccah, is God still in control in your world? what if I vote for Obama and Romney wins. Do I say God, you missed this one? or do I say, God I don't see your purpose in this, but I do trust your decision? Why are we so blind, none of this has anything to do with "OUR" purpose it has to do with "GODS'" purpose, and I don't buy any of this Christians today are lost in deception, no the real Christians trust that God will work everything out for the "GOOD". My friend, unless you can see into the future "which maybe you can" you can't see how God will use either candidate "HE" allows to win. I think the real deceived, are the folks that don't trust God, it has nothing to do with ones faith in either candidate,or what faith either candidate is, it has to do with one's faith in God. Just some food for thought, all the Christian presidents in the past, are partly responsible for were we are today, how's that working out for us? Peter said,"I clearly see," he said, "that God makes no distinctions between one man and another,That is, I have evidence here that God is no respecter of persons, God will go with those whom he anoints; he will be with those to whom he has given by them.

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Miccah Sep 24, 2012

MrBillPro,

If you believe the Lord is in control. Then don't vote. Why chance a mistake if it is already done and decided? Or were you just saying that in response to my post?

(Christians voting for Romney)... Nothing to see here folks... move along. Don't let the fact that we are supporting a cult/satanist leader make you think that we are not Christians... Nothing to see here folks, move along...

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MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Miccah, I do believe God is still in "total" control, this is why I do vote he is in control of me also, don't understand what you meant I should not vote.

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MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Miccah, so if Romney wins, are you giving up on God? or are you going to say, well God I just can't believe you used this person, what is wrong with you? There can be no doubt that James Buchanan was gay, how did we ever get here, once having a President that was gay?

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Miccah Sep 24, 2012

MrBillPro.

Strawman, strawman, strawman...

You may not want to hear what I have to say. That is your choice. But you cannot deny that you heard it.

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MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Miccah, No I want to listen to you, if not, I would have never responded, I am listening, but what God says to me, trumps what you have to say. You should step down a notch on the ladder, unless your God, you have no idea why things happen, if you do I have a few questions for you on the loss of a close friend.

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Miccah Sep 24, 2012

MrBillPro.

God told you to vote for a Mormon for President?

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MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

I never said one time God told me to vote for any one of the two, my point here was to get folks to trust in whatever God does, and not let man deceive him. Some trust in chariots and some in horses,but we trust in the name of the LORD our God. Psalm 20:7. A nation is blessed when it has godly leaders, but even if a nation does not have a godly leader, that nation can still be led by God because He controls the hearts of the kings, He directs what happens. Every government official, he asserted, is God's tool. I believe first and foremost this truth,that God is the God of the nations,Congress doesn't direct the future, God does, Washington doesn't call the shots, God does.

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Miccah Sep 24, 2012

Looks like we agree on something on this topic.

Yet, you are still voting for a man as President, when the Lord is in control. If God is in control no matter what, why vote for a Mormon, when that could very well be a sin? Why take the chance? If it is already worked out (election) by the Lord, then why face the possibility of sinning by casting your vote for a cult satanist leader?

Why not abstain and let the Lord do His will? Why ruin your witness with a vote for a cult/satanist leader?

If I was an unsaved man looking in at a Christian voting for a Mormon, then listen to that same Christian say that Mormonism is wrong, I would call you a hypocrite.

So I ask, is your vote for a cult/satanist leader more important to you then your witness to the lost for Christ?

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Miccah,

I believe that your assessment of Frank in wrong.

What part is "wrong?"
The part where he calls us "blind?"
The part where individuals are accused of "cultural bias?"
The part where he insinuates that those who don't agree with his view are susceptible to "voting for the anti-Christ?"

Those were Frank's words in this thread which are echoed in nearly every subject on the matter.

Can you acknowledge that many of us will pray about and study this issue with purity of heart/motives and sincerity yet might still feel enough to choose between the two major candidates?

If someone votes for a Mormon for President, I personally and scriptually question you and your Christianity.

Do you really feel so empowered as to question my relationship with God?

You are totally free to have an opinion. I understand that. However, the line is crossed when someone subtly -- yet publicly -- hurls insults or insinuations and also questions the spiritual resolve and maturity of those with whom we disagree.

Unfortunately, many believers come across as condescending and judgmental when they perpetually fail to distinguish an OPINION from SCRIPTURAL TRUTH.

You can sit there and proclaim that I am guilty of "foolishness, ignorance, deception, You name it." However, this isn't the Lord that you are basing your opinion upon. It is based upon your own understanding -- an opinion -- about such matters that you place an enormous amount of trust in.

The more that I grow in the Lord, the more that I am CERTAIN of things that are absolutely clear from the Word of God. Yet, there are some things that I once thought were "clear" yet have since reconsidered as I matured in the Lord. Yet, as I have grown, I am keenly aware of things that I am not entirely certain of.

There is a problem in the Body of Christ when individuals romp around and make proclamations that are based upon generalizations, judgment, opinions or general "figuring it out." This is why many topics -- from music to Calvinism to Bible versions to Eschatology -- often becomes so divisive. Believers with different views are so certain of what they think that they feel that inclination to "question you and your Christianity" over it.

Is this what God has called us to? To fight, bicker and scrutinize the very relationship with God of those with whom we disagree? Has God called certain people with strong alpha personalities, strong opinions that they attribute to God and a keen "victim" syndrome to try to micromanage the Body of Christ and publicly dismiss those with whom they disagree?

To be clear: I have no problem with someone sharing their concerns with Governor Mitt Romney. I often "check myself" -- and the things that I adhere to -- even if I don't agree with others. However, there is a line that is crossed when individuals who fancy themselves as being "prophetic" on SermonIndex can meander into the realm of discrediting the views or thoughts of others by publicly insinuating or questioning their faith because of a disagreement.

In this case, there are many believers who will pray about the election. They will also prayerfully study God's Word about this...and study the consequences of our decisions...and might still feel inclined to vote for a particular candidate despite his religious beliefs. This should NEVER be used as a primer by which someone feels so strongly about themselves that they can publicly question someone's faith in Christ.

Those who are so keen on warning others to "flee Babylon" might also want to "flee babel" -- as in the words used to gossip, slander, insinuate, generalize or scrutinize the relationship with God of those with whom they disagree. Without the Love of Christ behind our words, we are nothing more than a sounding brass or tinkling cymbal. And, of course, we should have ALL "fled Babylon" when we came to Christ; and, we should continue to flee until we arrive to His Kingdom. Part of fleeing Babylon isn't just the physical systems of this world (because God didn't take us out of this world) but the spiritual systems -- including those that help us tame our tongues.

I hope that this makes sense.

M

Miccah Sep 24, 2012

Great posting Chris. Well worded and thought out. thank you for your reply.

My original questions stands...

If Christians have a problem with me questioning your Christianity, so be it. The question to you is, if it is unacceptable for a concerned brother in Christ to question you and your choices to support a cult/satanist leader, what would you consider "acceptable" for other Christians to question you on then?

If your brother in Christ cannot question other Christians in their choices, especially a choice that may very well lead them or others to the gates of Hell, then we might as dust off our shoes and move along...

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rainydaygirl Sep 24, 2012

by Miccah on 2012/9/24 11:23:30

Great posting Chris. Well worded and thought out. thank you for your reply.

My original questions stands...

If Christians have a problem with me questioning your Christianity, so be it. The question to you is, if it is unacceptable for a concerned brother in Christ to question you and your choices to support a cult/satanist leader, what would you consider "acceptable" for other Christians to question you on then?

If your brother in Christ cannot question other Christians in their choices, especially a choice that may very well lead them or others to the gates of Hell, then we might as dust off our shoes and move along...

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i have a sincere question i would like to ask? how would casting a vote for Romney cause someone to go to hell? this is confusing to me? would a person who votes for Obama be in the same danger of hell?

one more thought, i am gonna admit this election has troubled me more then any other. in truth i pray for both candidates but the idea of either of them winning cause me to tremble just a bit with fear. i am praying about this but seeing brothers in Christ attack each other as in this thread just makes me feel awful.

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sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

HI Miccah, I appreciate your defense of me but I urge you not to, it will simply be fruitless. These attacks are to be expected. Men rage when they see their systems being exposed, they always have and they always will. I am glad of your discernment on these issues though. It is true, God is judging and so we see what is unfolding. Men have become blind to to the deception and only God can open their eyes. Its a Mormon this time, the mind only boggles as to what it will be in another 10 years that Christendom is defending. But Mr Bill pro is right in this fact, God is in control and men have the right to choose who they will follow and put their trust in, the systems of the world or God alone. As bro Neil always says .........Flee Babylon........ bro Frank

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Miccah Sep 24, 2012

rainydaygirl.

Good question. If you will notice I said that it may lead to Hell, not that it will lead to Hell. There is a difference.

The answer lies in the scriptures. All throughout the Word, we are commanded to stay away from false teachings, teachers, gospels etc.. We are told to have nothing to do with it, besides call it out, pray and direct people away from it. We are also told to not even have the look of being associated with evil. There are so many scriptures...

rainydaygirl. I am not certain that a vote from Romney will lead people to Hell. But I can tell you this, not voting at all will NOT lead to Hell. Why take the chance? There are so many risks associated with voting and supporting a Mormon, some of these I have mentioned earlier in this thread. Why roll the dice?

As for brothers in Christ attacking each other. None of the sort is happening. What you are viewing is a brother in Christ loving his fellow brothers (and sisters) in Christ by loving them enough to say something.

If folks are looking for someone to tickle their ears and say, "everything is alright", I am not that person. If I see my brother going down the wrong path, I have to say something, or I am just as guilty by-proxy.

My brothers have corrected me many, many times, and I am thankful for those corrections. I have learned a lot, and am still learning. Now it is time that they take a loving rebuke and hear.

Mormonism is a cult, arguably a Satanic cult. Supporting a cult member to lead God's people or any other people is wrong. I will not stand idle by while my brothers walk into deception. Cannot do it.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Hi Miccah,

If Christians have a problem with me questioning your Christianity, so be it. The question to you is, if it is unacceptable for a concerned brother in Christ to question you and your choices to support a cult/satanist leader, what would you consider "acceptable" for other Christians to question you on then?

I answered this within the context of my post...and in previous threads on this topic too.

We are not voting for a pastor, church or ministry. We are simply choosing between two individuals for a single position.

And, like I said, I have no problem with you having the opportunity to present your opinion. However, there is a difference between presenting an opinion or questioning the legitimacy of someone else's walk with God on the basis on a disagreement over this issue.

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

I could not resist. This is the rather famous cartoon that teaches the "deeper revelations" of Mormonism. These are all reportedly documented theologies.....and more strange than any Star-Wars, OB Wan Kanobe, Star-Trek fantasies ever recorded in Hollywood.

This is more bizarre than any other cult in the world, IMHO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3BqLZ8UoZk

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MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

rainydaygirl...how would casting a vote for Romney cause someone to go to hell? this is confusing to me? would a person who votes for Obama be in the same danger of hell?

Obama endorses same sex marriage, Romney is a Mormon, most nations will collapse when their morals have gone south, evil will prevail and there will be great division. We have already seen in living color what one can do, should we give the other a chance, or let the first one bring this country closer to the gates of hell? I am not endorsing anyone here, its just that if I have seen living proof what one can do and I am not happy, do I just vote him in again, or take my chances on someone else? God did grant us a little wisdom, sometimes I like to use mine. Personally, I think the Black pastors of America have the best idea.

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Miccah Sep 24, 2012

chris.

If I was walking in or into deception willingly, and tickling the ears of the saints to follow and you witnessed it, would you not speak up?

After warning me many, many times (and others giving this same warning), would you not begin to question my walk?

That is what is happening here.

I would rather offend someone to heaven, then flatter them into Hell. - Unknown.

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DEADn Sep 24, 2012

This is becoming an entertaining thread. Dare I say fundamentalism at its finest?

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

These attacks are to be expected. Men rage when they see their systems being exposed, they always have and they always will. I am glad of your discernment on these issues though. It is true, God is judging and so we see what is unfolding. Men have become blind to to the deception and only God can open their eyes.
bro Frank

Frank,

When I point out that YOU have attacked others with such vile insinuations that you argue to be the mind of God on the matter by accusing those with whom you disagree of being "blind" or prone to "vote for the Anti-Christ" -- then you are not a "victim."

No one is "attacking" you.
I am asking that you stop attacking us.

Remember: Gossip, backbiting, insinuations, connotations and accusations are the languages of Babylon. When we "flee," we should leave those things behind.

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Miccah....After warning me many, many times (and others giving this same warning), would you not begin to question my walk?

I have been warned not to buy this house, or drive that car, or eat that food, or go to that Church many times by others, was there a message here? In every event above, I listened to God and everything worked out for the good. Just because we have different messengers don't make me or you wrong, I just always listen to the ultimate messenger, Jesus Christ.

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

DEADn...This is becoming an entertaining thread. Dare I say fundamentalism at its finest?

I thought to be a Christian, you had to be a fundamentalist. :)

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Miccah,

As I said, I have no problem with you sharing your opinion. However, you seem to have a problem understanding the difference between an opinion on the subject and what is undoubtedly the mind of Christ -- to the point of questioning someone's relationship with Christ over the matter.

When I was a relatively new believer, I went preaching house-to-house with a man from our congregation. We would sometimes see things or find people doing something that wasn't up to what some might think is "holy" behavior in believers.

On one porch, a person was very nice and told us that they were a believer. However, the man that I was with could hear a television on inside of the house. So, he said, "You aren't a real Christian if you subject you and your children to that idol!" On another porch, a man who claimed that he was a believer was listening to some "oldie goldie" songs. The man that I was with told him that he was going to Hell.

While I think that we ALL know the dangers of television, music or even Mormonism, it isn't my place to judge the spiritual condition of others.

That is what I think is happening here.

You can tell the truth (or even share what you THINK is the truth) without meandering into pronouncing the spiritual condition of others.

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

The fact is there are two men running for President who are controlled by antichrist spirits. One is secular humanist. More liberal than any we have seen. His policies run counter to Biblical truth. He may even be a Moslem. The other is a Mormon cultist. Mormonism is satanic. Their doctrine is not Biblical. Certainly an open channel for antichrist spirits.
Yes God is sovereign. But we are responsible to discern the times. And we are responsible for our actions. The fact that two men are running for President controlled by antichrist spirits should send a clear message. The message is one that has been echoed in this forum. Cone out and be separate. We are citizens of another kingdom. Our King has said that his kingdom is not of this world.

As I indicated in my earlier post. Their are black evangelical pastors who have far more discernment who are telling their people to not vote for either of these candidates. My questions. Where is the discernment of the white pastors? For that matter where is the discernment of the average evangelical?

It is not a matter if the American evangelical church will be apostate. The fact is she is apostate. Supporting a Mormon for President only drives home the apostasy.

Saints I echo again what has been echoed by others. Come out of Babylon. Be part if the remnant. Come to Jesus. And oh yes. You will be persecuted and martyred. But so were the saints of times past. Romney or Obama are not worth considering. Fix your eyes on Jesus. And be prepared to suffer and die for him. But joy and glory await you. Be about the Kings business. Nit about this election that means nothing in the eyes of eternity.

Bearmaster.

M

Miccah Sep 24, 2012

This is becoming an entertaining thread. Dare I say fundamentalism at its finest?

If warning our brothers and sisters about Mormonism makes you think that one is being a fundamentalist, then i am guilty as charged.

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Here are some fundamentalist that believes that principles are more important than people, or results.
Osama bin Laden
Tomas Torquemada
Jerry Falwell
Meir Kahane
Ted Unabomber

One can be a fundamentalist in any religious or secular creed.

M

Miccah Sep 24, 2012

While I think that we ALL know the dangers of television, music or even Mormonism, it isn't my place to judge the spiritual condition of others.

Not true Chris. How do you practice church discipline? Sometimes this includes judging the spiritual condition of a brother, correct?

M

Miccah Sep 24, 2012

MrBillPro,

Here are some fundamentalist that believes that principles are more important than people, or results.
Osama bin Laden
Tomas Torquemada
Jerry Falwell
Meir Kahane
Ted Unabomber
One can be a fundamentalist in any religious or secular creed.

Not even worth a response...

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Hey Miccah. I guess I am a fundy too. But then one day we will be called enemies of the state. Guess there are worse things we can be called as followers if Jesus.

Bearnaster

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

What I see here is, some folks predicting the future, should I put Gods money in stocks, bonds or my 410K? :)

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Brothertom writes..........

"This is more bizarre than any other cult in the world, IMHO."

I would have to agree with that brother. Up until about ten years ago, the notion that Mormonism was a classic cult would just simply not be questioned by any group of Christians. We can now see have far we have fallen in a short period of time with this and other issues. Yet, this is part of God's judgment and so those who know the truth simply have to speak the truth in love. Obviously many will get upset and angry and personally attack, but this is part of what the coming conference is about, about the persecution that is coming to North American Christians who will dare to stand upon the truth...............bro Frank

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Hey! here's a thought, maybe God is so upset at us all, Christians also, these two candidates are our punishment. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Not true Chris. How do you practice church discipline? Sometimes this includes judging the spiritual condition of a brother, correct?

There is a big difference between "church discipline" and merely pushing a personal view upon the Church and then rejecting those who might have a slightly different perspective on the matter (and calling them "blind" or saying that they are prone to "vote for the Anti-Christ").

Does a believer that we have never sat down with have a right to say that we are "blind" or going to Hell simply because they pray and prayerfully study this matter and still feel the liberty to vote for one candidate over the other?

We can all agree that Mormonism is a cult. That isn't in dispute. I find the religion that Mitt Romney adheres is a damnable cult. I find the same thing true about the "Liberation Theology" cult that Obama follows that makes him think that abortion and homosexuality are somehow compatible with the teachings of Christ.

However, this isn't about the fundamentals of two cults. It is about whether or not believers can feel that one candidate is a better choice over the other. And, of course, it is about how we treat those believers with whom we have a difference of opinion.

Again, many of us are praying about this and may still feel inclined to vote for Governor Romney despite his religion.

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Chris did not Jesus warn his followers to beware of false prophets. He said you will know them by their fruit. This does involve judging. There has to be discernment. If we do not judge and discern how can we expect to know the kids of the evil one.

The New Testament warns and even commands us to be vigilant and alert. This involves discernment and making a right discernment. And even mire so in these end times.

Bearmaster.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Obviously many will get upset and angry and personally attack, but this is part of what the coming conference is about, about the persecution that is coming to North American Christians who will dare to stand upon the truth...............bro Frank

Again, Frank, you aren't being "persecuted" or "attacked" when I ask that you stop labeling those you disagree with as "blind" or prone to "voting for the anti-Christ."

There is a difference between "truth" and "opinion." There is an old saying that goes, "Stand for truth but be graceful with your opinion."

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

ccchhhrrriiisss..I find the same thing true about the "Liberation Theology" cult that Obama follows that makes him think that abortion and homosexuality are somehow compatible with the teachings of Christ.

This right here shows were his faith is, does any real follower of Christ endorse abortion and homosexuality? Momma always said, actions speak louder than words.

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Then Chris if you feel Obama has been influenced by the teachings of say Jeremy Wright. And this is coming out in his policies. Do you think MIT Romney is going to leave the teachings of Joseph Smith at the front door of the White House?

You seem to think Romney is operating in a separate compartment from his faith. I gave posted this man is dedicated to his faith as any Moslem us dedicated to his.

So what makes him a better candidate?

Bearmaster.

R

rainydaygirl Sep 24, 2012

thanks for responding. the thread is moving so fast i almost missed it. gonna leave the thread here and go back to hiding in the shadows.

rdg

edited

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Maybe God is just giving us all what we deserve, maybe this country needs to be taken down to the gates of hell, to get the big awakening we all need.

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Bill is one's stand on homosexuality and abortion the acid test of what makes one a follower of Christ. Then let us call the Mormons our brothers and sisters.

Bottom line our salvation lies in the person and work of Jesus Christ and Mormons do nit hold to this.

Bearmaster.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Chris did not Jesus warn his followers to beware of false prophets. He said you will know them by their fruit. This does involve judging. There has to be discernment. If we do not judge and discern how can we expect to know the kids of the evil one.
The New Testament warns and even commands us to be vigilant and alert. This involves discernment and making a right discernment. And even mire so in these end times.

There is a difference between warning others about a "truth" and arguing over an "opinion."

No one is arguing about Mormonism. It is clearly a damnable heresy and a dangerous cult. Yet, some believers feel that they might think that Mitt Romney is a better choice DESPITE his religious beliefs.

Yet, my issue here is with the way subtle insinuations and accusations are made in regard to some believers who might not embrace our views. They attack those believers with their words and then act as if they are the "victims" of "persecution" when anyone questions their insinuations or accusations.

In the past, Brother Greg has asked that we be careful about such things. In fact, he has even shut down threads that meandered into attacks on certain men who many would agree are false prophets. Not too long ago, he shut down a thread about TV evangelist Benny Hinn.

I strongly disagree with many things that Benny Hinn teaches. I could point to many of his false prophecies -- including specific things that didn't come to pass -- that are still found on YouTube. I can point to flaws in his "health/wealth" message. There are many dangerous holes (or pits) in his doctrines that I think are quite obvious.

Yet, I would never meander into questioning the faith of individuals who might have listened to him. Why? I don't know the condition of those individuals. Some people are at different levels of maturity and may have not realized the things that are now so clear to us in retrospect. And, of course, despite the many glaring errors in Benny Hinn's teachings and "prophecies," it doesn't mean that EVERYTHING that he has ever said is wrong.

The same can be said with any list of preachers, teachers and theologians. My wife and I were listening to a message of J. Vernon McGee on the internet the other day. In that message, he spoke about his "cessationist" views regarding the gifts of the Spirit. I disagree with him on this matter, but agree with him on many other matters.

Yet, on SermonIndex, we have individuals who will point at certain individuals -- like Charles Finney, William and Catherine Booth, David Wilkerson, Deitrich Bonhoeffer or Martin Luther -- and declare a dark eternal condition based upon an opinion derived from the limited extents of their research.

Is this what God has called us to do?

Like I said, I am not defending Mormonism. I am simply questioning the wisdom of those who would judge my heart if I pray about and prayerfully study this issue and still feel the liberty to think that one candidate -- despite his beliefs -- might be a better choice than the other because of a list of reasons. No one here on SermonIndex should feel a right to call me "blind" or insinuate that I am prone to "vote for the Anti-Christ" because of this.

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Bear,The danger to America is not Barack Obama, but a citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the Presidency. It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their president. The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails America. Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools, such as those who made him their president. Neither candidate will be good for America if your asking for my opinion.

M

Miccah Sep 24, 2012

There is a big difference between "church discipline" and merely pushing a personal view upon the Church

Chris, does Jesus want us to be yolked with cults? We both know the answer to this. So how is this a personal view? The Lord tells us to be seperate, to not have any look of evil, to warn the flock about damnable heresys.

Nothing of a personal view about it. My personal view is to vote Obama out of office and to get someone in there that will stop abortion. My political science degree tells me to get everyone to vote and choose a candidate based on the betterment of the nation.

But this election is different. Christians, CHRISTIANS are supporting a Mormon for President, one who WILL lead others down the path of his religion. Christians are doing this with no shame!

We can all agree that Mormonism is a cult. That isn't in dispute. I find the religion that Mitt Romney adheres is a damnable cult.

Again, many of us are praying about this and may still feel inclined to vote for Governor Romney despite his religion.

Chris. These above two quotes is the issue in the Church today. Knowingly voting for a cult member who's religion leads to Hell.

It is like we have all fallen into crazyville or something.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Hi Miccah,

Chris, does Jesus want us to be yolked with cults? We both know the answer to this. So how is this a personal view? The Lord tells us to be seperate, to not have any look of evil, to warn the flock about damnable heresys.

I am not "yoked" together with a cult. When I go to Safeway to purchase a gallon of milk, I am not endorsing the religious views of whoever manages or owns the grocery chain.

Remember: Some unsaved people go to Chick-fil-A because they like the chicken sandwiches and sweet tea and not because of the views of the CEO.

I think that Mitt Romney is a better choice than Barack Obama -- not because of his Mormonism -- but because I think that his decisions on many issues is better.

Nothing of a personal view about it. My personal view is to vote Obama out of office and to get someone in there that will stop abortion. My political science degree tells me to get everyone to vote and choose a candidate based on the betterment of the nation.
But this election is different. Christians, CHRISTIANS are supporting a Mormon for President, one who WILL lead others down the path of his religion. Christians are doing this with no shame!

Likewise, my decision to vote is a personal view based upon my education, research and understanding. However, that stands behind the fact that I will PRAY and prayerfully STUDY God's Word before I vote.

Let me be clear: Romney will not lead me "down the path of his religion." If anything, most scientific polls indicate that his religious beliefs are quite unpopular with his supporters and non-supporters alike. In other words, those who might be inclined to think that he is a better choice will do so despite his religious views and not because of them.

Chris. These above two quotes is the issue in the Church today. Knowingly voting for a cult member who's religion leads to Hell.
It is like we have all fallen into crazyville or something.

I disagree. It isn't about endorsing the man's religious views. In 2008, when a slight majority of Americans -- including a few here on SermonIndex -- voted for Barack Obama, polls indicated they did so despite his affiliation with Reverend Jeremiah Wright or the Liberation Theology cult.

Now, the choice in 2012 is between Barack Obama (a pro-abortion, pro-homosexual marriage Liberation Theology cult) and Mitt Romney (an anti-abortion, anti-homosexual activism Mormon)...or simply deciding to not vote and let everyone else choose.

When I was in college, a ranking member of Bill Clinton's election team spoke in one of my classes. He mentioned how it was NOT the goal or the Clinton election team in 1992 and 1996 to simply get Christians to vote for Bill Clinton. They knew that it just wouldn't happen in large numbers. Rather, he simply wanted to keep Christians from making a decision at all.

They knew that Clinton would probably not win a majority of vote (he won with 43% in '92 and 49% in '96); so, their strategy was to point out the "deficiencies" in the other guy's religious beliefs. By prodding Christians to stay home, it would prevent the Christians from making an impact in those elections.

It worked. Clinton won the election by "plurality" rather than "majority."

In this election, I don't care about Mitt Romney's Mormonism. It is a cult, but it is NOT the reason that many Americans will vote for him. And, of course, believers know how to divide spirit from flesh, soul and spirit with the Word of God. If Mitt Romney tried to "push" his Mormon views, polls indicate that they would be strongly rejected by believers and unbelievers alike.

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Miccah write..........

"It is like we have all fallen into crazyville or something."

Its called blindness Miccah, a great deception. Now we must expect those who are blind and deceived when presented with the truth to either

1. See the truth
2. Continue to be blind ( oftentimes willful ignorance)
3. Apathy
4. Anger
5. Hatred
6. Attack those who stand upon the truth.

Now, if anyone knows anything of church history, they will know this is the pattern that has always existed. When a brother or sister would stand up and challenge the Catholic church for instance, they were labelled by the church as arrogant, and boastful and ultimately a heretic. The personal animosity towards these brothers and sisters knew no bounds. Rather than accept that these people disagreed with their position or doctrine, they always took it as a personal attack on them and this fueled great hatred.

It is always good to look at a man's words. See what is the abundance of his heart, for out of that abundance he will speak. There is coming a time soon when you will not be legally allowed to say what I and others have said about Mormonism on this thread, it will be considered arrogant and hate speech. Bills have already been attempted in Britain and in Canada to stop the sharing of the Gospel in work-places because of our stance that Christianity is the only way to heaven and all others paths lead to hell. Here is my last word on this thread and may the Lord bless all who will boldly stand upon the truth...........bro Frank

Out of the abundance of the heart
The mouth speaks
Out of the mouth of an angry man
The mouth shrieks

The world follows its own
And in derision it will laugh
God's people follow the Lord
As He leads them down the narrow path

The wisdom of the world
Is mere foolishness to God
And those who walk the broad path
Must choose to ignore His Word

God's word will be heard
Along the narrow way
And there's many a pied piper
To lead the world astray

If you listen to the siren's call
You'll end up on the rocks
If you listen to the world at large
You'll hear just how she mocks

Look and see who stands up proud
And like a flag becomes unfurled
When all they believe is challenged
The ways and the means of the world

God's ways are not the ways of men
We belong outside the gate
He makes us walk the narrow path
And the crooked paths made straight

So many men are entangled
And adrift in the stormy sea
Its better the smite of a friend
Than the kiss of the enemy

Come now and walk the narrow path
And leave the world to its own
Seek Him with your whole heart
And gather before His throne

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Frank,

1. See the truth
2. Continue to be blind ( oftentimes willful ignorance)
3. Apathy
4. Anger
5. Hatred
6. Attack those who stand upon the truth.

You aren't being "hated" or "attacked." I am simply asking you to stop attacking those that you disagree with and labeling us as "blind" or "prone to vote for the Anti-Christ" simply because we don't accept your views and opinions.

There is a difference between taking a stand for "truth" and taking a stand for "Frank's opinion." And, of course, attacking others because they disagree with your opinion is not "standing upon the truth."

M

Miccah Sep 24, 2012

Chris,

You keep speaking about the marketplace, the Lord addresses the marketplace.

Please show me, in scripture (in context), where believers are to establish and endorse a Satanic leader to lead over them, secular or spiritually...

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Miccah,

You keep speaking about the marketplace, the Lord addresses the marketplace.
Please show me, in scripture (in context), where believers are to establish and endorse a Satanic leader to lead over them, secular or spiritually...

The "marketplace" choices are merely an example, type or anecdote of what you are presenting as so important on a national level. When I choose my job, I pray about it. I may never even know before I choose the job whether or not the manager or CEO is a Christian. However, I will pray about it...and determine (with God's guidance) the best job that will help me provide for my family and the work of Christ.

It is odd, but many people quote passages about "obedience" and "submission to governments" when speaking of President Obama. Yet, this nation has no king. This is a nation "of the people" and those who serve in office are merely private citizens selected by fellow citizens in a vote.

Now, I think that there is a difference between a person in spiritual error and belongs to a damnable cult that they believe to be "Christian" and someone who is willful participant in Satanism. Yes, both are paths to Hell. However, one is a path chosen through error and the other is willful.

Yet, in this case, it isn't about Romney's Mormonism. The church that he attends will not be on the ballot. However, his policy beliefs are implied because they are what he says he will do. Obama says that he will support abortion, homosexual marriage and other things like this. Romney will not. People who are deciding upon Romney aren't doing so because of the church that he attends but because of the policies that he claims to support.

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Well there is no good choice, and for someone with True Christian beliefs, if you endorse either you are still going against everything "most" true Christians believe and stand against. The amount of difference in the two, is not enought to make a difference, we are splitting hairs now trying to justify either. One will win, and neither is going to be the silver bullet to fix the mess were all in, only God can help us.

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Chris I ask again. Do you think Romney is going to leave the teachings of Joseph Smith at the front door of the White House?

Bearmaster.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Chris I ask again. Do you think Romney is going to leave the teachings of Joseph Smith at the front door of the White House?
Bearmaster.

And, again, I respond that we are not choosing the man's religious beliefs. Most polls indicate that those who might feel that Romney will do so DESPITE his religious beliefs.

But, this is not the topic. Mormonism is not the issue to me because we recognize it as a cult.

The issue that I have is with those who will subtly reject the faith of those of us who might feel inclined to think that Romney is the better choice for various reasons. We are told that we are "blind" or prone to "vote for the Anti-Christ." Our relationship with Christ is rejected. When we simply ask those who do attack us to stop, they pretend that they are being attacked for "standing upon the truth."

M

Miccah Sep 24, 2012

chris,

Please show me, in scripture (in context), where believers are to establish and endorse a Satanic leader to lead over them, secular or spiritually...

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Miccah,

I believe that I already explained this to you. You might want to go back over my previous posts so that I don't have to write my response all over again.

Likewise, perhaps you can show me in Scripture (in context) where certain believers can use a public forum to attack other believers who hold a different opinion about this matter, insinuate that they are "blind" and prone to "voting for the Anti-Christ" (and worse) and then pretend that they are the victim when they are asked to not do this.

M

Miccah Sep 24, 2012

Chris. No, you have not answered my question, and still have not. If you have answered it and I have missed it or I am just not getting it, please allow me some grace and re-tell me.

Chris, this is not a personal attack against you or others that may/will vote for Romney, but real concern about you/them falling into deception.

Likewise, perhaps you can show me in Scripture (in context) where certain believers can use a public forum to attack other believers who hold a different opinion about this matter, insinuate that they are "blind" and prone to "voting for the Anti-Christ" (and worse) and then pretend that they are the victim when they are asked to not do this.

Chris. I never said this. I did say that I believe Christians are deceived, but I do not remember saying the above statements.

Chris, my posts are bold, but in love. If they have been disrespectful and hurtful, that is not my intention and I appologize. I am still a work in progress and the Lord is still molding, teaching and growing me.

Brother. Now that you have a clearer view of my heart on the matter, I can say that I stand by my postings and questions.

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Let's see, do I want to endorse a satanist or a baby killer and someone that says its fine for two men or two women to marry. Talk about deception, you have already seen what Obama can do, let's vote him in again,because he has proven his beliefs in his actions. I just can't wait to see what other surprises Master Obama has up his sleeve. My guess is Christianity will be a thing of the past, if the Muslim is re elected. Also, show me scripture were Christians are suppose to endorse Muslims, is there a real difference in Muslim and Morman beliefs?

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Chris you fail to realize that there is a demonic element behind both Romney and Obama. Whatever name you may want to give the ideology. Mormonism, liberation theology, Islam, or secular humanism. It is demonic and comes from one source. Satan. Or as Bill would say. Old Sluefoot.

You seem to think this is about issues and who is the better candidate. Not true. Both men are controlled and deceived by an antochrist spirit. So which ever one a Christian nay vote for are in effect partnering with an antichrist spirit.

Paul warns us in 2 Cor. 6:14-18 to not partner with demonic forces and to be separate from them. For a believer to vote for either Obama or Romney in effect will be partnering with demonic forces.

Chris this is not opinion but New Testament truth. According to Eph. 6 there is a ranking order of demons that inhabit the earth and heavens. Some of the highest ranking demons and Satanic forces are found in Washington DC. Thus tbeir influence on policy makers.

That is why Christians need to stay out if this election and politics. It is evil and demonic. This is not about issues. It is Satan exercising demonic control through the political process.

John writes in his first epistle that the whole world lies under control if the evil one. That is governments. That is this government. God calls us to be separate from these demonic systems and be a witness for Christ.

Bearmaster.

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Bill again both Obama and Romney are controlled by demonic spirits. Best advice. Don't endorse either if them. If you feel you must vote. Vote for an independent. However I would suggest do as the Anabaptist did and not participate in the governmental processes and be a witness for Christ
.
Bearmaster.

C

ccchhhrrriiisss Sep 24, 2012

Hi Miccah,

Chris. No, you have not answered my question, and still have not. If you have answered it and I have missed it or I am just not getting it, please allow me some grace and re-tell me.

You asked:

Please show me, in scripture (in context), where believers are to establish and endorse a Satanic leader to lead over them, secular or spiritually...

I suppose that the fallacy in this question itself. You see, you are assuming that those believers who might feel that Mitt Romney is a better choice over the next four years is the same as "establishing" or "endorsing a Satanic leader" to "lead over" us.

I have made it quite clear that:

A.) Mormonism is a damnable cult.
B.) Mormons don't realize that their cult is a heresy and aren't knowingly embracing "Satanism."
C.) Polls overwhelmingly indicate that Governor Romney's religious views are not the reason that people will vote for him.
D.) Americans are not choosing Mitt Romney's church, church leaders or religious beliefs.
E.) Some of the beliefs that Mitt Romney adheres to -- such as abortion and homosexuality -- are correct in regard to the Biblical view on the matter DESPITE the Mormon cult.
F.) Believers in Christ are not endorsing Mormonism.
G.) Believers who might support Romney simply think that he will do a better job DESPITE his religion.

Now, I can point to unsaved kings who are in the same boat (or worse) but whom godly men served. Joseph served Pharaoh. Daniel and the three Hebrew children all served secular kings. The children of Israel and Judah submitted to many ungodly kings of Israel, including some who had bowed their knees to Baal.

The American government is one of "consent." Americans consent by permitting and selecting the representatives who will legislate on their behalf. They aren't "establishing" them because the government is established. Nor are they establishing EVERYTHING about each and every representative that is selected. For instance, I have had professors, employers and even people that I have employed that I didn't agree with them on everything. I chose them because they were good in a particular field and not because of their religious views.

On most issues, I agree with you and Frank; however, it doesn't mean that I endorse EVERYTHING that you believe. If the forums at SermonIndex have shown anything, it is that it won't take long before Christians will find something wrong with other Christians -- even if they agree on most issues.

By the way, "consent" can be given even without an affirmation. By simply remaining quiet, we can give consent. In the Parable of the Good Samaritan, the Levite and Priest can be construed to have "consented" to the condition of the victim of a crime by walking by and failing to render aid. While I would certainly prefer a Christian man in the White House, I am simply happy that someone -- even a "nasty" Mormon -- will stand for some things that I feel are right.

Likewise, I can ask for you to give me something clear -- from Scripture -- that believers cannot vote for a person in a government of the people unless that person is a Christian. After all, a Mormon is in the same "lost" category as every other cult, atheist or mere non-believer. However, that doesn't mean the Mormon is wrong in everything or unqualified to be better qualified to manage as a chief executive.

Chris, this is not a personal attack against you or others that may/will vote for Romney, but real concern about you/them falling into deception.

My issue with this particular thread is when we are treated as "second-class believers" by certain believers with whom they disagree. To accuse someone of being "blind" for a mere difference of opinion on this matter is stepping beyond mere concern.

Still, please allow me to ease your serious concerns. My faith in God is real. I hope that you are encouraged by the fact that the greatest and most important thing in my life is to spend time and please the Lord who saved me. The same is true of many believers that you or others may disagree with in terms of the upcoming election. I am not and will not endorse Mormonism. I will not "vote for the Anti-Christ." I will continue to wholeheartedly seek the face of our Lord and endeavor to please Him in everything.

Chris. I never said this. I did say that I believe Christians are deceived, but I do not remember saying the above statements.

In my first post in this thread, I was quoting Frank. The specific yet subtle accusations were the ones that I felt were grievous enough to participate in this thread. Please forgive me if this wasn't clear.

Chris, my posts are bold, but in love. If they have been disrespectful and hurtful, that is not my intention and I appologize. I am still a work in progress and the Lord is still molding, teaching and growing me.
Brother. Now that you have a clearer view of my heart on the matter, I can say that I stand by my postings and questions.

Thank you, brother. I just want people to know that there are many of us who truly love, seek and know our Lord but might have a different perspective on this issue. It seems like (as usual) we all agree on the "main thing" but differ mostly on the practice of specific things.

I appreciate your concern too. Like I said a few times, I don't have a problem with individuals sharing their concerns. It is when we meander from concern to accusation -- including subtle accusations -- that my heart grieves. I often feel concern when I am misunderstood or misconstrued. When issues are raised about the spiritual condition of one's heart because of an issue like this, I do grieve over it. When poems are posted and accompanied by proud words by individuals who claim that I "attacked" them by simply asking them to refrain from accusing me over a mere disagreement, I feel grieved.

Perhaps it appears selfish on my part to respond. If it is, I apologize for it. However, I do simply feel a need to offer an answer when someone uses this public forum to spread insinuations about those with whom they disagree that are either skewed generalizations or contain misrepresentations of our character or faith.

M

MrBillPro Sep 24, 2012

Bear, your right! Maybe Jesus will be here by November, hey you never know.

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Bill on that we agreed. I am all for Jesus returning. Think I will stand down.

Bear.

S

sermonindex Sep 24, 2012

Brothertom writes..........

"This is more bizarre than any other cult in the world, IMHO."

I would have to agree with that brother. Up until about ten years ago, the notion that Mormonism was a classic cult would just simply not be questioned by any group of Christians. We can now see have far we have fallen in a short period of time with this and other issues. Yet, this is part of God's judgment and so those who know the truth simply have to speak the truth in love. Obviously many will get upset and angry and personally attack, but this is part of what the coming conference is about, about the persecution that is coming to North American Christians who will dare to stand upon the truth...............bro Frank

We must remember that as cruel as it may seem, it is GOD! who turns souls over to STRONG DELUSUSION, because they received not the love of the truth.

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

God ordained B. Obama as president, to hurry along impending doom, on a country that once honored God and His Son. It will not matter if Romney wins; Do you think we would repent, if he did?

On another note; Tell me when America had the last Christian President? [You cannot probably, if we decided in terms of being born again; not denominationalism or "Christian Masons".]

Certainly not in the last 150 years. So, if they are not true Christians, then they are by DEFINITION infidels...the exact same as Romney or Obama.

I will not vote for this reason. God hates Murder and Abortion is MURDER...and both candidates are up to their shoulders in innocent blood. Romney only recanted when he began his run for President 10 years or so ago; read his legislation in PA that promotes it, when he was Governor.

If not for this, I might consider him for President.