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PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT!

S
staff

Hi All,
I am going to follow up this subject from another thread as I think it is important in its own right.

Re: THE PIGS HAVE NO SPIRIT\t

In the passage below Jesus casts out demons into pigs.
Note one thing-THAT PIGS/ANIMALS HAVE NO SPIRIT!
That means that the Spirits must have been inhabiting the body of the Pig not the Spirit for that brief period of time.That then means that they also can inhabit the body not the Spirit of a person.They cannot inhabit the Spirit of a Person probably anyway whether it is Filled by the Holy Spirit or not whether the person is saved or not.

28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?" 30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs." 32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water

Also later the men are seen to be sitting down in their RIGHT MIND which shows that the demons effected their mind.

I am sure like most Christians that Demons cannot inhabit the Spirit of a believer.So their is no need to talk about that I think.
However a demon can in some way latch on or have a hold on a believers mind or body.
Has the enemy pulled a fast one,in making believers think that we saved cannot have a demon?I think so.We have become toothless in this regard.
Sermonindex is about to have a conference on Persecution but what about all the christians that are being persecuted daily by demons.We have failed to provide correct teaching on this subject and in part I understand why.
The Con artist and the sham artist have been attracted to the money and power that healing and deliverance brings and have robbed the Church of ministry.We have looked at the show put on by these people and have distanced ourselves from them but in doing so the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater!Further more as a knock on effect we dont even cast out demons out of non believers anymore or to a lesser degree.We have been conned by the great con artist himself......

This post is not about a demon occupying a mans Spirit but about his body and mind!
Yours Staff

S
stevet83

I'm going to quote you:
" I am sure like most Christians that Demons cannot inhabit the Spirit of a believer. So their is no need to talk about that I think."

Then your next sentence: "However a demon can in some way latch on or have a hold on a believers mind or body." yeah, so they can't possess us but they can latch on? I really don't think so.

I wasn't gonna touch this, the fact that no one else did was the red flag.
I believe in God. He is all knowing, nothing takes him by surprise. He Is everywhere at once, so you can look at it like He out numbers everyone. He is sovereign, nothing happens without His consent. He is all powerful, He alone posses power, if anyone else has it it's because He delegated it to them. Satan is real and so are demons, But they aren't like God. They are limited in what they can do. Not to mention God has already sealed their fate. It's important bro to keep your focus, keep your mind on God and His word, that'll build your faith and keep it strong.

S
sermonindex

Also later the men are seen to be sitting down in their RIGHT MIND which shows that the demons effected their mind.

I am sure like most Christians that Demons cannot inhabit the Spirit of a believer.So their is no need to talk about that I think.

However a demon can in some way latch on or have a hold on a believers mind or body.

Has the enemy pulled a fast one,in making believers think that we saved cannot have a demon?I think so.We have become toothless in this regard.

Sermonindex is about to have a conference on Persecution but what about all the christians that are being persecuted daily by demons.We have failed to provide correct teaching on this subject and in part I understand why.
The Con artist and the sham artist have been attracted to the money and power that healing and deliverance brings and have robbed the Church of ministry.We have looked at the show put on by these people and have distanced ourselves from them but in doing so the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater!Further more as a knock on effect we dont even cast out demons out of non believers anymore or to a lesser degree.We have been conned by the great con artist himself......staff

Brother I think your analogy is completely correct. Satan would very much like to have believers think that demons cannot influence those who believe. The term “latch on” is really very accurate in my own understanding from 28 years of experience in these things. Possession in contrast is a poor choice to use for believers because it suggests a controlling influence, just as the demoniac in the country of the Gerasenes was clearly out of control and therefore was controlled. Your distinction between the spirit and the soul is also useful in understanding this subject as well. I would say that the mind is the battle ground and can be oppressed; but it is the physical body itself which provides a more certain basis for demonic oppression and activity. It is a difficult subject simply because holding either view, that a believer can be possessed or that a believer cannot be possessed serves Satan well. The one view produces fear and can lead to a weakness of mind which will give ground where it is sought; and the second view rejects any influence whatsoever and makes for ignorance which gives cover to demons seeking an opportunity because the one being physically oppressed does not remedy it by prayer and if need be repentance.

The comments about some ministries which have made ruin of a sound understanding of this subject have indeed done a great deal of harm. It is only necessary to understand that these demons are simply dispossessed spirits which at one time in the past came under judgement of God for their part in a rebellion led by Satan. They are in truth nothing of themselves. We should in truth have no interest in them. We should also be wise in our understanding that they are in the world and God Himself permits it. To that end we can get on with our own walk and if we have any concerns we just have to ask The Lord Himself through prayer to deliver us and to show us why we were vulnerable to their influence. Sin will almost always be the basis, but fear also server them well. Clearly serving The Lord faithfully is going to deal with this problem because through obedience we perfect our love for the Lord and all men; thereby dealing with fear; and the same obedience will hinge always on ceasing from sin. The only thing to really consider is whether we are in some way deceiving ourselves and say we do not have sin, when in fact we do. Or we say "love" but show no mercy and give no alms and bear not our brother burden.

S
staff

Hi Steve,
When the demons left the demon possessed men into the pigs,the pigs then had the demons possessing them.But the pigs have no Spirit so we know that they effected the body and mind of the pigs.
The main reason that many Christians dont believe that a Christian can have a demon is that they say quite rightly "a demon and the Holy Spirit cannot inhabit the same place".
This scripture takes that reason away.
If you dont like my terminology thats ok but you cannot deny that the demons went into a body and mind that has no Spirit.
The demon cannot possess the Spirit but can the body and mind as seen in the pigs.
I would like you to comment on that.....
Demons are limited and we know those limitation as it is clearly stated in the bible but that is not the issue.The issue is can a demon possess a Christians body and Spirit.
By disecting the word of God correctly I am keeping my focus and mind on God and of course this scripture about the pigs is part of the WORD,
So Steve can a demon possess or latch on or inhabit a pigs body and mind?
Yours Staff

S
stevet83

"The term “latch on” is really very accurate in my own understanding from 28 years of experience in these thing"

"It is only necessary to understand that these demons are simply dispossessed spirits which at one time in the past came under judgement of God for their part in a rebellion led by Satan."

Since you so eloquently demonstrated your 28 yrs of experience, I'm sure you're able to demonstrate a little patience with my lack of experience and immaturity.
"...dispossessed spirits..." I thought they were angels? I thought the Bible says that God had cast Satan and a third of the angels in heaven out. That is why I'm confused with why you call them that? Demons, fallen angels, evil spirit. These words I am familiar with.
And what's up with this "latch on" stuff, cause I've never seen that in the Bible, I'm sure you can just give me the address so I can look it up myself. Thanks

S
stevet83

No they cannot. My reason is simple not much to dissect: the demons did not just go and posses these pigs, because, like I said they are limited beings created by God. Fact is, Jesus Christ, God Himself was the one who sent them to the pigs. I don't know why, the text doest say, but it's evident these demons knew their days were numbered, and Jesus had authority over them. Could have the demons possessed them on their own? Not without God allowing them. The only reason the demons were able to posses the pigs was because God told them to go there. I'm pretty sure they asked Jesus to send them to the pigs? Interesting, cause they wanted to go there but couldn't unless they were given permission. Hmm.
I will say straight out that I'm not worried about demons. Are they presently active in the world? Yes I believe that. In the end days there will arise doctrines taught by them. Am I worried about that? No, because I've been made alive by the power of God, delivered from the kingdom of darkness( have you ever heard of satan taking anything from God, that God didnt allow him to have? Says alot about the true nature of the power of satan and demons. Says alot more about Gods awsome power and authority.) Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against His church. He cant lie bro. I'm sorry if my lack of concern is offensive, but I'm confident that God will protect me, because He promised to.
Do I believe demons can posses a Christian? No, they don't have the power to.
Don't take what I'm saying out of context. I attribute all power, Glory, and Honor to the one supreme being in existance, God.

S
staff

Hi Steve,
Whether they needed permission or not they did enter the pigs and possess them.The demons actually thought they were being judged early and didn't know when entering the pigs that their minutes were numbered.They only wanted to go into the pigs because the alternative was to wander in dry places.The fact that they could only go into the pigs with permission only shows their limitations and that they had no jurisdiction over the pigs unless given by Christ.We can give demons jurisdiction as well in areas usually to do with sin.We know they cant be transmitted from one person to another!
I am not worried about demons either but the scripture clearly shows that they occupy body and mind not Spirit.
How they do that is not shown.
The text does say that the demons entered the pigs and as we know a pig has no spirit so the demon must have occupied the body or the mind or both you even admitted that yourself.
Interestingly you say you were delivered from the kingdom of darkness but not all Christians have been yet fully.
One of great doctrines of demons is that "Christians cannot have demons no matter what terminology you want to use". Really clever of Satan to come up with that one and its worse,so afraid(red flags) of the subject we have become we dont even cast out demons of unbelievers!anymore.We dont demonstrate his awesome power and authority,
Yours Staff

S
stevet83

Wow bro... Because Jesus sent demons into pigs who only have a mind and body, that teaches demons can enter
Christian's mind and body? That's a big jump.
If you think that I'm somehow trying to convince you to abandon what you believe about it, you're way in left field. I believe what I believe because im convinced that's what the bible says. Im sure you would say the same about what u believe. It's funny cause I'm still going to be with my Savior because He suffered the Fathers wrath for my sin. I don't know the spiritual secrets of the workings of demons. I only know what the Bible says, and what it says is said plainly, I don't have to read in between the lines.
U made an interesting statement about the Christian giving or opening himself up to demons because of sin in his life: I'll tell you, I'm a sinning sinner! I cant deny that, the Bible says it, my conscience confirms it, and experience proves it. Now if you were to tell me the only way I can be safe from the constant threat of demon attacks is to be sinless, that's a tall order, i hope you will be able to attain that, so you're not always wondering if what your saying, doing, or feeling is a demon you allowed to influence you. I'll tell you what though, I have a righteousness that allows me to be right with God and allows me to spend an eternity in heaven with my Savior. It isn't dependent on me doing anything. This righteousness cannot be gained by abstinence from acts of sin, or doing "good" things. It is a gift given to me by God Himself.
You do understand that this whole "can demons posses Christians?" is a disputable matter, don't you? Fact is, regardless of how we feel about this, Let God be true and every man a liar.
I do have to stand on one point: God is the one who saves, and He saves to the uttermost! He is not like us He will do what He says, He's faithful!

S
sermonindex

"The term “latch on” is really very accurate in my own understanding from 28 years of experience in these thing"

"It is only necessary to understand that these demons are simply dispossessed spirits which at one time in the past came under judgement of God for their part in a rebellion led by Satan."

Since you so eloquently demonstrated your 28 yrs of experience, I'm sure you're able to demonstrate a little patience with my lack of experience and immaturity.
"...dispossessed spirits..." I thought they were angels? I thought the Bible says that God had cast Satan and a third of the angels in heaven out. That is why I'm confused with why you call them that? Demons, fallen angels, evil spirit. These words I am familiar with.
And what's up with this "latch on" stuff, cause I've never seen that in the Bible, I'm sure you can just give me the address so I can look it up myself. Thanks. Steve83

Hello Brother Steve. Please accept my apologies for causing you offence by my reply to Staff. Well brother to be inexperienced in this area of knowledge is nothing requiring patience on my part. After all why would you need to have any experience of such a subject? On the other hand men perish without knowledge. Even then knowledge cannot of itself save anyone, unless it is the knowledge of Christ and God. So I suppose that having been delivered from darkness into the glorious light of Christ and the power of the Kingdom of God you are sufficiently well informed to walk.

My reply to Staff was of course a provocation which snare was set by your own hand. The “red flag” reference was the basis of it. What Staff shared previously and now more fully is really sound brother. It is a good way to understand demonic wickedness when speaking about those who are spirit born of Spirit. The subject is a difficult one and there are no simple Scriptural references to explain the origin and substance of demons, or else to explain the difference between that which is earth bound, natural and demonic; and that which is said to be principalities and powers of wickedness in heavenly places. This does not mean that this cannot be explained it simply means that it is probably unnecessary to explain it. The Lord Bless you brother.

S
sermonindex

1 John 5:18 says that the one born of God keeps him safe and the evil one cannot harm him. Other translations say the evil one cannot touch him. Thus any child of God cannot be latched on or inhabited by demons.

Bearmaster.

S
sermonindex

1 John 5:18 says that the one born of God keeps him safe and the evil one cannot harm him. Other translations say the evil one cannot touch him. Thus any child of God cannot be latched on or inhabited by demons.

Bearmaster.


We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. Little children, guard yourselves from idols. 1 John5:18-21

This passage sets out the basis for understanding precisely what constitutes the foundation of a believer being kept both from the evil one.

No one who is “born of God sins” speaks of a reality which is God Himself as well as a new life in Christ. The basis for being kept is a sinless life in the spirit. The ground for possessing this sinless life is “knowing that The Son of God has come”. The effect is an understanding arising from knowing Him who is true; being in Him who is true; even Jesus Christ the Son of God. The outcome is the understanding of true God and possessing eternal life. All of this speaks of the spirit, because “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. Alas if we were but spirit we would be able to dismiss every other thought and place our childlike reliance on the saying “no one who is born of God sins’. Unfortunately we are not simply a spirit; we are spirit soul and body. So John concludes his letter with what seems like a random warning “little children guard your selves from idols”. It must be clear to anyone who is truly born again of the Spirit of God that an idol is nothing. Neither would such a one be inclined to worship an idol as though it were in fact something. Paul gives a good example of what this may mean and includes the soul and the body as well as the spirit in its envelope.

Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now, eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 1 Corinthians 8:4-12


What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we? 1 Corinthians 10:19-22

These two passages deal with one principle issue, not an idol, for an idol is nothing, nor the belly (body) for what goes into the belly goes into the drain, nor even the mind, because for us there is no such thing as an idol, for we worship true God and One Lord even Christ Jesus. The passage has to do with a brother or sister who has a weakened conscience. The conscience is a function of the spirit. The issue is not even a brother or sister seeing us eating in an idols temple; meat sacrificed to an idol, which is the same as meat sacrificed to a demon. It is when that liberty of ours serves to encourage our brother or sister to do likewise and which then “ruins” them because their conscience being already weakened before God, is then hardened even further by fellowshipping with demons through the eating of meat sacrificed to demons. In the spirit as a new creature a demon is nothing, neither a temple, neither an idol. As it is written “For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” Whatever makes for a weakened conscience in the first place is singularly important. It is sin. As we are here speaking of “our brethren” and not simply one man we must speak so as to minister to all men and not one man. If you have the knowledge that an idol is nothing etc., and you have no sin; if your conscience is clear before God and is not weakened by sin then you will no doubt know how to walk without so much as a second thought for idols, temples and demons. Yet even in that liberty you may not be free to do as you please because of your brother or sister who is observing you and may follow your lead. If you are not free from sin then you would be better able to stand and walk; if you knew how the enemy of our souls works and has always worked. You will be able to understand why the greatest sin for the saint; that of making an idol of things and thereby denying God, can be withstood and in that do away with demonic activity as well in your personal life.

I realise that all of this does not address the issue in a single verse whether a demon can or cannot “latch onto” or else oppress believers. But if you were to ask yourself in what circumstances is it possible for us to be kept completely from harm in this way, we would have to say it is only when we are walking in newness of life. If we walk in the flesh we will sin and when we do we will give ground for the enemy of our souls. Our way of escape will always be the same way of repentance. “If we confess our sins He is just and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”. Seeking to prove the activity of demons is probably foolish of itself. But so is denying the reality of the air we live in which is filled with unclean spirits; who’s lord is always looking for an opportunity to devour someone. As the whole world is in him, I rather think that he doesn’t need to look to unbelievers. He is looking to devour those who believe.

H
Heydave

This is a very contentious issue among Christians and I don't want to make an absolute statement about it. Many do have very fixed positions, but a lot of this is based on 'experience', anecdotes or passed on theories and traditions. All of which are not a solid foundation for sound doctrine. We must stick to scripture and not as someone has already said, 'read between the lines' and put our own ideas in there.

I have for most of my Christain life (30 plus years) had a lot of exposure to various well known and also local church based'deliverance ministries'. I have come to the conclusion that a lot of what is taught and practiced is based on personal experience and teaching that is passed around this circle, but not clear scriptural truth. So every one repeats the same things and where it came from is forgotten, but it is accepted as truth. An example of this is what Andrew Kelly mentioned. He talked about disembodied spirits (Steve questioned this). The answer to Steve's question is that many believe(forgive me if I am mis-representing you Andrew) they are the spirits of the Nephilim mentioned in Genesis 6 and also in 2 Peter 2:4. This teaching was popularised by Derek Prince, but is is pure speculation and we cannot say one way or another. The other problem is that a lot of this 'casting out of spirits' is performed in churches or conferences that undoubtedly have un-saved person who think they are saved. Hence there may be occasions when a true deliverance takes place, but the person may have never been a child of God anyway.

Now Jesus went around casting out spirits all the time and passed the command onto His disciples (including us), but as has been pointed out, you don't see one account of this being practised in the church among true believers. Problem is I don't ever see those so called deliverance ministries casting out demons from unbelievers, although there probably are un-known true servants of God on the mission field doing such. They just don't have a 'deliverance ministry', they are too busy preaching the gospel!

Andrew you stated: "The subject is a difficult one and there are no simple Scriptural references to explain the origin and substance of demons, or else to explain the difference between that which is earth bound, natural and demonic; and that which is said to be principalities and powers of wickedness in heavenly places. This does not mean that this cannot be explained it simply means that it is probably unnecessary to explain it. The Lord Bless you brother."
This my point exactly, so how can anyone make a fixed statement on this subject, let alone start to impose this ministry on others. I'm not suggesting you are brother, but there are many out there who are.

One other point Andrew made that needs clarification is when he said: "No one who is “born of God sins” speaks of a reality which is God Himself as well as a new life in Christ. The basis for being kept is a sinless life in the spirit......."

The passage in 1 John 3:9 literally says according to the greek grammer 'Whoever is born of God does not 'continue' to sin'. It is not talking about sinless pefection or about our renewed spirit. It is talking about a life walk. If we are born of God, we do not continue in a sinful life as a normal practice. We chose to walk in righteousness (1 John 2:29), that does not mean we are sinless and cannot fall, but there is a way of restoration as described in 1 John 1:9. Also if we walk in the light (not sinless perfection), the blood of Christ clenses us from all sin.

S
staff

Hi ALL,
Have we been attacked by Spam?Ironically similar to a christian having a demon!
But seriously-Answer these questions from Scripture
1-Can a demon inhabit a pig or animal-Yes or No?
2-Does a Pig or Animal have a Spirit?Yes or No
3-Where does it say in Scripture that a demon possesses a man's Spirit?(unsaved)
My post as you can see is totally based on scripture as anyone can see..
and I am saying clearly that from scripture that a demon can enter into a mans body or mind and not his spirit.
I am also saying that because a mans spirit is not involved that a demon can enter a Christians body or mind if the way is left open.
I believe that this teaching is from the Holy Spirit and I believe that it is a way of looking at the issue practically in a new way that explains what a demon can and cant do,
I am not looking for the old rhetoric from either side but just want you to look afresh at this Scripture about the demon possessed men and the pigs and see what it tells us,
Yours Staff

S
sermonindex

The passage in 1 John 3:9 literally says according to the greek grammer 'Whoever is born of God does not 'continue' to sin'. It is not talking about sinless pefection or about our renewed spirit. It is talking about a life walk. If we are born of God, we do not continue in a sinful life as a normal practice. We chose to walk in righteousness (1 John 2:29), that does not mean we are sinless and cannot fall, but there is a way of restoration as described in 1 John 1:9. Also if we walk in the light (not sinless perfection), the blood of Christ clenses us from all sin. heydave

See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or   knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is   born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. And for what reason did he slay him? Because his deeds were evil, and his brother’s were righteous. Do not be surprised, brethren, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has the world’s goods, and sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him? Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. This is His commandment, that we   believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. I John 3:1-24

Thanks for the encouragement Dave. Unfortunately when I quoted 1 John 5:18-21 and made reference to the saying “no one who is born of God sins” as a reality arising from the regenerate spirit, this is precisely what I did mean to say. The passage above also from the Apostle John includes the saying “No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin”. I think this verse cuts out any possibility of grammatical exegesis being necessary to understanding Scriptures. The subject of this verse is being born again, the object is being born of God’s seed, and the result is that he cannot sin”. The reason is the “seed” Who is Christ Himself as promised in Genesis to Adam and Eve as a remedy for the problem of sin. The reality is that it is the spirit (of man) that is born of the Spirit (of God) producing a new creature which possessing the very same life (seed) which is Christ Himself, and cannot sin, even as Christ Himself cannot sin. This does speak of a sinless life and as it is a being “born of God” it must therefore be of the spirit in substance which is being spoken off. It cannot be the soul, our minds are no born of God, they are renewed and our bodies are not born of God, they are translated in the twinkling of an eye, a new body.

I am not being argumentative here but I do want to be understood in the terms of my intentional use of words to describe what I describe not something else. It is precisely because the spirit is born again that it is possible for John to make the distinction in one verse that we should not continue in sin, because we cannot sin. The “cannot sin” has to do with Christ Himself whose life we now possess. We are not independent spirits we are united into Christ death, raised up with Him, ascended into heaven in His train and seated down at the right hand of the Father in Him. The soul on the other hand is capable of sin because its power came from our natural father according to Adam. Christ was crucified 33 AD I was born 1959 AD. The interim period is filled with countless millions who gave their lives to Christ. I did not give my life to Christ until 1984. Only then was it possible for me to receive the seed; the promise of God, a new life in Christ, Christ in me, etc.. When I first believed I didn’t drop down dead, rather I was made alive in Christ and He in me by the Holy Spirit, even Christ. My soul continued on after I was born of the Spirit of God. My body was not transformed into a new body. It remained the body of sin. John is speaking about a profound reality which many believers do not lay hold off. Not a man’s efforts to sinless perfection, but the sinless man Himself, even Christ in you the hope of glory.

As for this business of demonic activity and its effect on believers who continue in sin in the power of their souls, wilful, full of emotion and with the mind of disobedience, it is a problem and it is a ground for the enemy. The body of sin (physical body) though it is dead because of sin and unrighteousness can be brought into submission, by faith to the spiritual life we now possess; alive in Christ, always tending to goodness and truth. I know nothing of other’s ministries in this area, I only know what I have discerned and understood as I have walked and experienced this life which I now live in the flesh, by faith in the Son of God Who loved me and gave His life for me. As I have said it isn’t necessary to prove something which is clearly not God’s intention for our lives. Neither can we disregard spiritual warfare simply because we personally have no experience of it. As a matter of sobering reality the most demonic inclinations which are in the world are not dispossessed spirits but men who become demonic when they press against the truth in a denial of it, even to the denial of Christ Himself. Such a man was Judas Iscariot. Of Him the Lord said “have I not chosen all of you? Yet one of you is a devil”. Many here speak of the coming persecution both on America and then tribulation on the church variously throughout the whole world. Those doing the persecuting will be acting demonically and many will be driven in their minds having handed themselves over to unclean spirits to press the matter into complete rebellion and disobedience. These and others, believing spiritual powers of wickedness in heavenly places will become the chief character of men in these last days. Only after Judas had completed his own rebellion and disobedience did Satan enter into him to empower him to that which ought not to have been possible; an open and knowledgeable betrayal of Christ unto death; having first been chosen as an apostle of Christ! I don’t say we or anyone today could be as was Judas. But we are of the same substance as he was. What he did before Satan possessed him he did of himself. He was born a son of his natural father and became a demon by reason of conduct. The demons which are in the air were once similarly created alive and are become dead, which is to say their bodies have been destroyed. Just as Judas destroyed his own body through hanging himself on a tree and then spilling his guts onto the rocks below as he fell from the branch which broke under him. It is written that he went unto his own place. In the end a separation will take place and this problem will be dealt with anyway. In the mean time may believers suffer demonic attacks and it is largely ignored. I suppose that because the answer to this problem now is a simple matter of walking in obedience these attacks would largely be dealt with in that way of obedience.

S
stevet83

Thanks bro, I figured this doctrine was part of something like that. I just wasn't sure. I try not to spend my time warning Christians that they could be possessed or influenced by demons. I'd rather talk about what God does. Since I joined this site I have had such a temptation to respond to everything, when there is no need to. Thanks for your response.

S
staff

Hi Steve,

Quote:
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Wow bro... Because Jesus sent demons into pigs who only have a mind and body, that teaches demons can enter
Christian's mind and body? That's a big jump
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Granted it appears a big Jump except that if you take away a mans Spirit what have you left,Body and Mind the same as an animal except smarter.This scripture bypasses the argument that a christian cannot have a demon in their spirit because the Holy Spirit is there.
Also it is purely a scriptural argument not based on experience at all.


Quote:
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U made an interesting statement about the Christian giving or opening himself up to demons because of sin in his life: I'll tell you, I'm a sinning sinner! I cant deny that, the Bible says it, my conscience confirms it, and experience proves it. Now if you were to tell me the only way I can be safe from the constant threat of demon attacks is to be sinless, that's a tall order, i hope you will be able to attain that, so you're not always wondering if what your saying, doing, or feeling is a demon you allowed to influence you.
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This statement you made very important but as you know no one can be sinless.
I think and this part is experience rather than scripture based but I think if a christian has a demon it is the left over from our previous life before we were saved.It is the area in our life that (maybe habitual sin)that we never had victory in that gives the demon jurisdiction.
Now whether to cast out a demon from where it has jurisdiction without first dealing with why it has the right to be there is another story.
Interestingly the demons in the story firstly made a legal argument to Christ "Have you come to judge us before the time".


Yours Staff

S
sermonindex

U made an interesting statement about the Christian giving or opening himself up to demons because of sin in his life: I'll tell you, I'm a sinning sinner! I cant deny that, the Bible says it, my conscience confirms it, and experience proves it. Now if you were to tell me the only way I can be safe from the constant threat of demon attacks is to be sinless, that's a tall order, i hope you will be able to attain that, so you're not always wondering if what your saying, doing, or feeling is a demon you allowed to influence you. Staff

Sinless perfection is a tall order. In fact it is impossible. The Scripture tells us that we all sin every day. As Dave said earlier the Scripture also tells us that it is walking in the light of Christ which provides a benefit; chiefly that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. The other Scripture which deals with this problem of sin requires our confessing sins before we are able to benefit. The first benefit doesn’t require confession it simply requires a walking in the Light of Christ. The second clearly is when we do not walk in the light of Christ and find ourselves sinning in some manner or other, and this type does require confession. This one type of benefit, confessing our sins, is based on God’s justice and righteousness to cleanse us from all sin because of the shed blood of Christ. The other type of benefit is based on the blood as well, but it is a continuous benefit as long as we walk in the light.

There are many kinds of sins but different effects and consequences. Gross sins and sins which lead unto death cannot be simply overlooked because we have not sinned in that way for some time! If we forget because we have justified our sinning and then don’t sin for a few months in a particular type of sin, this may lead us to believe that God will somehow overlook what we have done. In that frame of mind and heart we may well experience a real difficulty in finding God’s presence in our lives and therein lays a problem. The only way to deal with this “hard heart” is to go back and confess those things which we ought to know cannot be simply overlooked. Stealing, wilful lying, hatred, gross jealousy, adultery and blaspheming God, but to name a few are obvious examples of sins which cannot be simply overlooked even if we may have changed our minds about what we have done. If we do these things and continue in them we will certainly give ground to the enemy and thereby to demons. Remove the ground (our sins) and the enemy is dealt with for the most part. After that any attacks from the enemy should come from the air or else from unbelievers working in the mind of Satan to hate us and persecute us. The wonderful thing about this is that these kinds of attacks are a blessing and actually produce real joy. Suffering for what we have done willfully is a real drudgery and it is unpleasant. Therein should lie a profound clue as to why demons have the legal ground to attack us and if they can, to oppress us and lay hold of our lives. God Himself permits it for our own sakes, but more importantly for His Names Sake.

S
sermonindex

Col.2:15......And having disarmed the powers and authorites, he made a public spectable of them, by triumphing over them by the cross.

Heb.2:14-15.......Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death----that us, the devil----and free those who all tbeir lives were held in slavery by tbeir fear if death.

1 John 3:8.......The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devils work.

Brothers in light of the above verses. How can you suggest a demon can inhabit a blood baught child of God. Either the work of f Christ defeated and destroyed Satan or it did not. My New Testament says that the devil is defeated. That is the truth of God's word

The devil, being the lier that he is. Would have saints believe otherwise. That is to believe that a Christian who is born again and kept safe by the power of God, can be infested with demons. Not so. This is a lie from the pit. And these type of discussions can give more power to that lie.

Again the truth of God's Word is this;

John 8:31-32....... If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

John 8:36.......But if the Son sets you free. You will be free indeed.

Conclusion. Believers free of Satan.

2 Thes.3:3.......But the Lord is faithful. He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

1 John 5:18.......The One born of God keeps him safe and the evil one cannot touch him.

Conclusion. Believers protected from Satan.

Romans 16:20.......And the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

1 John 2:14.......I write to you young men because you are strong, and the word of God livers in you and you have overcome the evil one.

1 Cor.15:57.......But thanks be to God. He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Conclusion. Believers are victorious over Satan because of Christ. Hallelujah! For this is the testimony and the truth if God's word.

Bearmaster.


S
stevet83

Im sorry but it still confuses me. What exactly do these demons do, after I "give them ground"?

"Reckon yourselves indeed dead to sin but alive to God in Christ"

There is a real work that has been done by God and I am encouraged to keep that in mind, that it would be of faith. Flesh cannot control flesh, that is the need for a new nature.

"Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God, but you are not controlled by the flesh but by the Spirit..."

Born naturally, everything I do derives from a nature that is enslaved to sin. The dominating principle is sin. Sure I might do thing that have an appearance of being good, but because it derives from a sinful nature, it is sinful and unacceptable to God.

Being born again that old nature is put do death, and the new nature is in power controlled by the Spirit. I still have the ability to sin, but my choosing to sin now is a free will choice and not a natural result of the power of sin, because that has been rendered powerless by the Spirit.

The good things I do now, I don't do to be right with God, but because I am right with God I choose to do good things.

S
staff

Hi again and thanks for the replys,
But isnt it just the same old rhetoric?.Instead of dealing with scripture concerned we just reel off scripture and scripture that dont answer the post.
1.Can an animal who doesnt have a spirit be possessed by a demon?
2.Can a demon possess a body and mind?
Yours Staff

Z
Zionshield

In "The Spiritual Man", Watchman Nee compiled the experiences of the saints in his time of warfare with the enemy. He layed out scripture and truths discovered by the church in China about this subject. Though a Christian cannot be possessed by the evil one, demons can have access to the facilities of our mind and will if we open a door to them. Paul referred to it as a "foothold". Deception, a passive will or mind and sin can allow demons a foothold. The use of "latched onto" is not a bad way of describing this. I highly recommend this book.

S
sermonindex

Hi again and thanks for the reply’s,
But isnt it just the same old rhetoric?. Instead of dealing with scripture concerned we just reel off scripture and scripture that don’t answer the post.
1.Can an animal who doesn’t have a spirit be possessed by a demon?
2.Can a demon possess a body and mind?
Yours Staff


I’m sorry but it still confuses me. What exactly do these demons do, after I "give them ground"?
"Reckon yourselves indeed dead to sin but alive to God in Christ"
There is a real work that has been done by God and I am encouraged to keep that in mind, that it would be of faith. Flesh cannot control flesh, that is the need for a new nature.
"Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God, but you are not controlled by the flesh but by the Spirit..." Steve.

May The Lord Himself keep us in His peace.

Yes an animal can be possessed by spirits! In witchcraft they are called familiar assistants. These animals can be given names, ranks and titles depending on the level of cooperation between the unclean spirit and the witch or sorcerer. The reason why the black cat in our culture, or particular snakes in African cultures, as well as birds and even dogs in south Asian cultures, are regarded as “unlucky” if they enter you home uninvited or else cross your path is a reflection of this reality. The one seeing the "animal" is reminded that it is a familiar, and therefore an unclean spirit may be gathering intelligence to communicate back to its human master; this may be regarded as unfortunate to the one who realises they have been observed. This whole process of grooming an animal may take several years, until it is capable of being passive enough to allow the possession without being mentally ill affected. The preceding agreement between Satan or else the demon directly, by the witch or sorcerer, stems from the ability of the man or woman to resist being possessed themselves. Hence if they cannot resist they become so possessed that they start to take on a physiognomic countenance which gives them away too easily. Demons always drive a person if they can. Indeed they are always inclined to outright wickedness having been given over to it without self-restraint. It is Satan’s own driving which presses the demons into circumstances and situations requiring of them that they act in a particular way for a purpose. If an animal is un-groomed for this purpose by a man or woman the animal itself will react with sheer terror as its mind is overcome and its limited intelligence is overwhelmed. This is what happened to the herd of pigs when Legion (5000) spirits went into them.

There are several basis and singular characteristics of demons. They cannot abide to be in the air for any length of time because they having had their bodies removed in judgement continuously desire to have a physical substance to express themselves in for their own contentment. They almost always act with as little visibility as possible, hence why they are terrified of believers who by the Holy Spirit can discern them and drive them out. If they are given ground to safely make an open display they will mostly oblige. Many believers having made a ministry which is no ministry at all, have simple through pride and vanity walked right into this trap and many testimonies of deliverance are fearful and disturbing to those who witness these things themselves. It ought not to be this way. Demons are totally subject to Christ, and that means Christ in a believer, by the Holy Spirit as well. Having discerned them they are easily dealt with in the most part and this can be done without any reference to them at all. They are cowards and cowardly, knowing only what it means to be driven or else to drive. They vary in strength of mind and intelligence; this being the only basis of their operation physically. Without another’s body be it cat, lion, or a man they have no physical abilities whatsoever. Those who practise sorcery and witchcraft effectively, perversely take pride in their knowledge and in keeping with that knowledge (which is called Familiar Knowledge as well as Hidden or Occult Knowledge) these same perverse man and women often begin to make an outward show of their abilities for the express purpose of causing as much subjugation through fear as it is possible to achieve. These people are enlarged by their activities and almost always fall into pride and visibility. Satan uses this outward show, but these same men and women often end up completely losing their own minds and destroy themselves or fall victim to extreme violence. Many take their own lives because Satan abandons them to the consequences of their own wickedness. This whole business is tragic and very sad. Most people who play with this knowledge simply end up scaring themselves after which they put it behind them.

When Judas Iscariot heard the words which to his own understanding exposed him to the other disciples, he was not in fact exposed to them; they did not know who the Lord was referring to. In that instant Judas was simply exposed to himself. His words, in which he calls Jesus "Master” ought to be the most sobering words in all of history to anyone who makes use of spiritual authority as a cover for personal gain. In the world these things are as nothing compared to what these things mean in the church. It is naive in the extreme not to understand the profound nature of deception which is afoot in the world, but it is sheer madness not to understand that apostasy and the preceding deceptions which inform it, are directed at and can be found in the Church itself. Arguments about whether demons can possess the bodies of animals, and by imputation, the bodies of men; and by further imputation the bodies of saints or not, are futile and serve no purpose. That demons can possess both animals and men is self-evident from the account of the demoniac and the herd of pigs. Whether demons can ordinarily possess saints is a matter of ministry and being led of the Holy Spirit and not a matter of simplistic doctrine. This is why the subject is so confusing. We ought not to worry about such possession, but we ought to be mindful and wise about the way in which the enemy of our souls labors.

Deception and the possibility of being led away from the Lord are real. Even though they cannot in fullness mean being led away for ever, all such being led away, will cost that individual dearly as well their families and indeed anyone who believes in them and submits to them; both in the familiar way or in an open display of submission.

In answer to your simple question Steve concerning what demons do if you give them ground. “They start to lead you away from the Lord”. Above all else this is what they will do.

Understanding where our confidence lies is the key to remaining in the Lord. Sin will give ground, but deception is the object and desire and it is to lead you away from the Lord. Our confidence is in the Lord Himself. It is Jesus who overcame the world and the devil. It is Jesus Who triumphed over the wicked one and it is Jesus who took away the power of sin and death. It is Jesus who made a public display of all wickedness and wicked powers in His own body, crucified for our sins. Therefore it must be to Jesus that we look for sustenance and repentance and cleansing and power to walk, not to ourselves. To this attitude Satan has absolutely no remedy at all.

S
staff

Hi Armkelly,

Quote
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Arguments about whether demons can possess the bodies of animals, and by imputation, the bodies of men; and by further imputation the bodies of saints or not, are futile and serve no purpose
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Thanks for the reply.
Even though you agree with my point on possession,I disagree
with your quote above.It isnt futile and does serve a purpose.
Why it isnt futile?
Because it is a scripture that shows that a demon or demons were possessing an animal who have no spirit.This nullify's the arguement that a christian can not have a demon because "the Holy Spirit doesnt inhabit a mans Spirit with a demon"
What is the Purpose?
The purpose of the post is to show that the Church has thrown the baby out with the bathwater.That Satan in recent years has hoodwinked the church into believing "he doesnt exist"!The purpose of the post is to show that we now have persecuted Christians in the church who need help and are not receiving it.

Quote
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Whether demons can ordinarily possess saints is a matter of ministry and being led of the Holy Spirit and not a matter of simplistic doctrine.
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Almost all doctrine in the bible is a serious of simple teaching although I agree with Peter that Paul's writing is hard to understand at times.The passage about the Pigs is simplistic but is also correct.Thats the beauty of the Bible is its simplicity and practicality.

Thanks for your insight yours Staff

S
stevet83

I respect what u believe about this, but no matter what we think, or feel about it, God's Word is what I trust. This subjects brings no edification for my soul/spirit and is a disputable matter. I'm pulling out on this thread, I'd rather discuss the wonderful works of God.

S
staff

hi steve,
i am glad to say that i only used the word of god and not experiencial doctrine in this matter.it is not a disputable matter to satan who knows that many christans are under persecution from demons.once the word of god is explained correctly whether u or i like it or not it it brings edification.when god releases a person from bondage of a demon this is a wonderful work of god and worth discussion !!yours and god bless staff

S
sermonindex

Staff if you are going to use Mat. 8:28-.32 to reason demons can inhabit a believers mind and body. Then you are going to have to follow through on your logic. First the demons had to have the permission if Jesus to enter the pigs. Ate you suggesting that Christ gives permission for demons to enter a believer that has been redeemed by his death at the cross.

The scond thing I see in this pasage from Marks account was that the man who was in his right mind is now a believer. Thus suggesting he wasnot a believer when he was inhabited by demons.
In both Mathew 8 and Mark 5 I see the exact opposite if what you are suggesting. 1.Demons inhabit nonbelievers, not believers. 2. Demons need permission by Christ to inhabit anything. He certainly is nit going to give them permission to inhabit a believer.

Bearmaster.

S
sermonindex

No matter what we think, or feel about it, God's Word is what I trust. This subject brings no edification for my soul/spirit and is a disputable matter. I'm pulling out on this thread; I'd rather discuss the wonderful works of God. Steve.

No doubt Steve you have the better portion.


I disagree with your quote above. It isn’t futile and does serve a purpose.

Why it isn’t futile?
Because it is a scripture that shows that a demon or demons possessed an animal that have no spirit. This nullity’s the argument that a Christian cannot have a demon because "the Holy Spirit doesn’t inhabit a man’s Spirit with a demon"

What is the Purpose?
The purpose of the post is to show that the Church has thrown the baby out with the bathwater. That Satan in recent years has hoodwinked the church into believing "he doesn’t exist”! The purpose of the post is to show that we now have persecuted Christians in the church who need help and are not receiving it. Staff.

There are only two ways to come into familiar or occult knowledge. The first is to act wickedly and determine to acquire it. This will cost you your life and in the end without Christ your eternal soul. The second is to preach the gospel of Christ effectually in a public place. I have been grounded in both of these ways.

The former was from the age of 7 when I first consciously looked into these things, having been driven there by the wicked one through parental abuse in the first instance and then as I yielded myself by virtue of demonic possession. Deliverance came by way of coming to Christ whilst in prison in 1984 aged 24 years. The 14 years in between these two dates was spent exercising familiar knowledge without any realisation that I was in fact exercising the power of my own soul to a wicked end, as well as developing a certain intention to serve the wicked one; just as the wicked one blasphemously desired for my life. In coming to the knowledge of God and Christ I was able to throw the whole bag of rubbish concerning my former interest straight into the bin in the corner of my cell. Just prior to being saved I couldn’t have told you what a demon was let alone understand that I was profoundly possessed and was being driven as a result. I knew I was driven, and had done for several years before my conversion. But I could not have understood how it was that I was driven or by what. I knew that I was able to control people with ease, but I did not realise that my controlling influence was in the first instance my own soul power. These are intellect (rational mind), emotions, (seat of emotions in the mind) and will (volition or the seat of choosing, in the mind). As a child I childishly exercised this soul power over animals, people and even objects in a childish way. It was “fun”. I even exercised a degree of influence over those who were harming me. But fear of them laid waste to childish thoughts and gave way to witchcraft and a desire to murder them.

The greatest deception which the wicked one pulls off in generality is getting those who have developed an interest in the “super natural” by whatever means, to believe that it is either innocent and neutral or else that it is something given by spirits. In rarer instances it an imputation that these abilities are in fact given by Satan. Though it is not the Satan of Scriptures it is a Satan of Satan’s own making. It is a presentation of Lucifer, that former cherub who set himself to be like God and was destroyed. It is a “before he was destroyed” understanding. This kind of knowledge is available and clearly seen and understood in Scriptures. Yet to the mind of the unbeliever it seems like a coming into something of great worth and value. It leads the one so deceived into believing they have become a better person. They do not even realise it is the knowledge of Satan because the wicked one hides behind an image of his former beauty and does not even reveal so much as a morsel of who he really is. Then there are a few (very few) who are become so wicked themselves that they have pressed themselves into a state of mind that they become demonic in nature with full intentional wickedness. Of this latter number I would not even so much as speak. They are hidden and they need to remain hidden. God understands them and this is sufficient. In the Scriptures only three men are named in this way. Judas Iscariot, The Beast of Revelations and the false prophet of Revelations. Even when we speak of “many anti-Christ’s” we are speaking of men who are in reality hidden. They must remain hidden yet in the apostolic church they became known, not because they were discerned, but because “they went out”; “in the face of the Apostles teachings they could not remain. So by going out they became known. Again when we speak of the spirit of anti-Christ we are speaking of the working of Satan in men. The measure of it is that these men deny that Christ has come in the flesh. In finality that man who gives himself over to wickedness by claiming to be Christ, thereby denies that Christ has come in the flesh. His declaration is primarily to Israel according to the flesh, yet he is believed by many, including the apostate church.

Yes it is true that to speak of demonic activity is in no way edifying. It is in fact a great sadness to speak about creatures which are destroyed and whose end is destruction. Yet because of the times in which we live it is necessary. In fact it is more necessary now than at any time in church history. As those who have believed we take comfort from the knowledge of Christ Who has brought us into His kingdom by means of a life relationship through forgiveness of sins. If we stumble we can once again seek His face and we will be forgiven those things as well. It is not that our first repenting and calling on His name was lacking in some way, it is rather that we have an enemy who is labouring in the full knowledge of God and revelation of Scriptures to deceive if possible even the elect of God. Sin makes ground for him to oppress us if by some means he can discourage us from serving Christ effectually. Given that Satan is already defeated and is rendered powerless with regard to sin and death, one would have to ask why he is able to continue in a hidden deception, yet in something which is clearly revealed to us through Scriptures. The answer lies in his mind which is in truth a mind of true madness. Whilst the demons which were caste out of the poor man in the garden cried out in fear when they saw The Son of Man, Satan blasphemously moved to tempt The Son of Man, and even sought to have Him “fall down and worship him”. This very same creature when he first awoke to become a covering cherub looked our Lord right in the eyes and knew Him from the first. He was thus created to dwell upon the mountain of God in the stones of fire and worship.

The second way to come into knowledge of demonic activity is preach the gospel of Christ in a public place. There you will see just what it means to speak about demonic activity. I have been threatened with death, cursed, rebuked and other things. In all of these instances I have not seen a man, but an unclean spirit seeking to prevent me by fear of man, from preaching the gospel effectually. I have rebuked the spirit of Mormonism as it has passed by me, as well the spirit of Islam and the working of Satan himself. In all of this I did not see men. I saw and understood that these men were all deceived and incapable of doing other than they were doing.

In speaking like this I realise that I am in danger of drawing attention to myself. Yet this is the precise thing which is needful to understand demonic activity. It is not a set of simple or otherwise doctrines. It is and can only be truly understood in the light of Christ working in the lives of men in our own experience of men. I have listened to Hindu’s begging to be delivered from demonic activity in their lives. They were so terrified that they had written the name of the demon on their arms in a tattoo in the hope of appeasing the spirit which was tormenting them. Yet I have seen the same as these incapable of receiving Christ, because though they understood that they were being tormented by demons; through fear, they were still yielding to the demon and its influence by seeking to appease it. Such as these cannot be delivered because their condition once the demon returned would be more terrible than before. To say to them I cannot deliver you, even though they had sought you or a friend out for this very purpose was heart breaking. If they had been able to see Christ as their deliverer then they would indeed have been delivered.

Such are we who have seen Christ by faith and are delivered. Let us not once again be drawn into disobedience and through sin, be led astray into a life of self-interest and satisfaction. Neither let knowledge itself satisfy us, but good works and the fruit of the Spirit through which our conscience will approve us before God so that in drawing near to The Father and The Son, we might also comprehend His drawing near to us, that we might know Him, even as we are known by Him. There is more Joy and satisfaction from once instance of truly knowing The Father than all the knowledge in the universe. It was for this purpose that Christ died for us. That we might know The Father. I don’t despise knowledge especially the simplicity of Scriptures, but I do comprehend that knowledge without obedience is vanity. Knowledge will not save us if it is not met with obedience through faith. I agree that many saints are suffering because of demons. But the remedy is not invocations it is obedience. The demons will soon move on if they realise that very soon you will be presenting yourself before The Father in heaven in a good conscience.

S
SonsofLevi

Was not Peter a believer when Jesus turned to him and looked him in the eye and said, "Get behind me satan, for thou art mindful of the things of man, and not of God."?
Humans are merely empty vessels, whatever spirit we yield to is the spirit we serve, whether the spirit of sin, which was known in the early church, unto death, or the Spirit of God unto life eternal.
If a Christian walks into a fire does he not get burned the same as if an unbeliever walked into it? Therefore, if a Christian yields to an evil spirit, whether knowingly(willful sin) or unknowingly, is he nevertheless immune to being burnt by that wicked fire?
The only safety is in the experiential knowledge of the finished work of Christ on Calvary and the believer standing on that ground. Nothing wicked can come onto resurrection ground, only that in the believer which is not on the resurrection side of the Cross is satans legal right to the believer. Yet God is faithful, when we ask for light as to the deception of the enemy He gives it, and the experiential knowledge of being crucified with Christ applied will give us Christ's victory and glorify God.

M
murrcolr

Is there testimonies of a demon being cast out of belever?

S
sermonindex

Peter wad thinking with the mind of man.. Basically fleshky carnal thinking. Such thoughts can be put there by Satan. This does not imply Peter was latched on by a demon in his mind. Jesus was addressing the source of Peters thinking. That being Satan. He was not addressing a demon in Peters mind.

I think this thread is suggesting demons can inhabit a believer's mind and body. Presumably after conversion. I do not see that taught in the New Testament. In an earlier post I quoted different verses that declare Satan is defeated, believers are protected from the devil, and believers have victory over the devil.

Bearnaster.

S
staff

Hi Bearmaster,
You no right well that Jesus will not give permission for such a thing!Jesus would not give permission for demons to enter anyone believer or non believer
Lets look at what we both can agree on(i think)
A-Demons can inhabit animals who are only body and mind
b-From the two demon possessed men we can say that demons can inhabit non believers who are body,mind and spirit.
c-The demons needed permission to go into the pigs

The follow through of my logic would not mean that demons would need permission to enter a believer if-
A-A believer had the demon before they were saved
b-If a believer gets involved in some sin that they shouldnt and leave a way in for the demon.
The demons had no Jurisdiction to enter the pigs thats why they asked permission.We can give demons jurisdiction by habitual sin.The demon only asked permission because he was been cast out it is a different situation than a believers un christ like behaviour.
I agree with you that the man was not a believer when he was possessed that is not in question.The fact though that the scripture comments about they been in "right mind " shows that the demon was inhabiting his mind.

A couple of Questions-In what way did the demons enter the the two men?
b.Does the scripture show you that the demons can possess a body and mind?

Your Staff

S
staff

Hi Again Bearmaster,
Quote
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I think this thread is suggesting demons can inhabit a believer's mind and body.
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Thats exactly right especially if the person had a demon or demons before they were saved
Yours Staff

S
sermonindex

Hi Again Bearmaster,
Quote
----------------------------------------------------
I think this thread is suggesting demons can inhabit a believer's mind and body.
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Thats exactly right especially if the person had a demon or demons before they were saved
Yours Staff

Can I ask you Staff why you believe that having been possessed prior to getting saved constitutes ground for demons seeking to re-inhabit the believer?

S
staff

Hi Amrkelly,

Now I can only speak from experience and not from scripture but with some Christians that although we are saved don't change the way we live and dont give up our sins straightaway or in some cases it is years before we begin to live Godly lives.We leave our selves open for demon activity.I also think it depends on the type of demon you had.Some sins are just hard to beat.Some of us need longer sifting than others.I am in that section of believers.
We were saved,We are being saved and we will be saved.
We were saved when Christ came into our lives and we became born again,we are being saved daily (that includes learning how to live godly lives) and we will ultimately be saved when Christ comes back or we die.
If you didnt have a demon before you were saved it appears easier to change to be the person Jesus wants us to be.
I hope that answers your question,
Yours Staff

S
sermonindex

Now I can only speak from experience and not from scripture but with some Christians that although we are saved don't change the way we live and don’t give up our sins straightaway or in some cases it is years before we begin to live Godly lives. We leave our selves open for demon activity. I also think it depends on the type of demon you had. Some sins are just hard to beat. Some of us need longer sifting than others. I am in that section of believers.
We were saved, we are being saved and we will be saved.
We were saved when Christ came into our lives and we became born again, we are being saved daily (that includes learning how to live godly lives) and we will ultimately be saved when Christ comes back or we die.
If you didn’t have a demon before you were saved it appears easier to change to be the person Jesus wants us to be.
I hope that answers your question,
Yours Staff

Yes it is a good answer and honestly stated. The idea that a person can be born again and not change fills me with concern; yet I do believe that how we are saved; in what circumstances; and through the ministry of what kind of preacher or witness may all determine just what we are able to believe beyond the simplicity of the Gospel so as to walk by faith after we are saved. It is better to present the full gospel without trying to save someone ourselves and trust The Holy Spirit to bring true conviction and repentance to a lost soul, than to seek to persuade by psychological or natural reason. It becomes a numbers game when we neglect this truth. Christ will not deny Himself we reason and so we set about to catch as many fish as we can boast in; neglecting to see that the net is filled with fish which must be thrown back before they can be brought into the boat permanently. It is argued that only God can fill the net, and this is true because even when God gives the increase not all of the fish will respond with a sincere repentance. Yet it is possible to fill the net deliberately and falsely which may explain why so much demonic activity is hidden in the branches of the church today.

Clearly some believers have a real difficult time in accepting that demons can directly influence the lives of saints. I have spent all day thinking about the instances when I have been involved in a deliverance which has centred on a believer; or else an instance where a believer was definitely the object of demonic activity by discernment as well as in visibility. I have seen a number of so-called deliverances and at the time was fully persuaded that it was all just confusion and flesh. I can only think of two examples as well as one other which I believed and discerned had real substance. The one came about by a sister telephoning my former preaching partner some 27 years ago, asking for help with her husband. Martin my minister friend called me and we drove to the house this brother had been taken to. As I walked down the drive way I could see into the house and as I approached the front door I saw this brother who I knew well looking through the door with a look of real fear and anguish. The first thing we were told was that he had been exposing himself to the children in this household from the moment he had arrived; hence the call. In the end although I definitely could see that he was disturbed in his mind and that his sympathetic nervous system was running wild, I could not discern or believe that he was possessed. There was no doubt that he was being attacked in his mind and I also discerned that the ground for it was related to his being a physical education teacher at a private girl’s school. There was also a discernible presence of an unclean spirit.

The second case I can think of was much simpler. I was praying with three men two who were believers and one who thought he was or claimed he was a believer but in truth he was not a believer. I decided to lay hands on these men to bless them and pray for them individually and as I moved towards the unbeliever The Holy Spirit warned me with a command not to lay hands on him. I disobeyed and in an instant I saw an unclean spirit move through the air and alight onto one of the other two men. Both of them were believers. The demon, having been taken by surprise, and having been hidden and still, reacted fearfully and fled to the nearest person. That brother to whom the demon fled looked at me straight in the eyes and I realised that he knew something had happened. Apart from the fact that I was ashamed of what I had done I was troubled and concerned for the brother who was offended. I have to say that although this experience was shocking and troubling I did not believe that he had been possessed. I dealt with the problem in prayer an hour or so later until I received peace regarding this brothers well-being. I also repented of my foolishness and pride.

These are the only two instances where I have witnessed any visible and discernible activity of a demonic nature involving believers. I have in contrast witnessed many instances of clear demonic activity with unbelievers.

As I am writing, it comes to mind that there is one real distinction which I can make. I have heard many things spoken in churches by believers which were clearly the fruit of demons. Things which amounted to a denial of the faith in such a way that it was possible to hear the lie clearly; yet although these things were spoken and discernible as false, they did not give rise to an actual discernment of an unclean spirit nor were they supported by a demonic visibility. I am reminded of those who accused Jesus of having a demon because He revealed that they wanted to kill Him (John 7:20). Perhaps this is the most difficult demonic influence to “prove”. Of the many times I have questioned preaching in this way I have never once received a good reply or response. It is remarkable that Jesus did not rebuke them, but said “you marvel that I showed you one thing”. It is almost as if Jesus is commending them for having the sense to recognise that He was able to reveal their hearts. The fact that they denied it of course was to be expected. Yet the Lord did not hide Himself from them for this blasphemy. Directly after this Jesus cried out in the temple and declared Himself openly. It is written “and after these things many in the crowd believed in Him”.

I still say that the only remedy for demonic activity is Christ Himself. Either to walk in Him or else to preach Him.

M
murrcolr

Quote: I think this thread is suggesting demons can inhabit a believer's mind and body

Okay so a Christian goes along to one of these “Toronto blessing type meetings” and they get prayed for and start acting drunk, laughing uncontrollably, roaring like lions making animal noises.

So what has entered into these “believers” to cause them to act this ways? Didn't they willing go forward to receive this "blessing" and gave the spirit behind it the legal right to enter?

G
ginnyrose

Ok, I have not read through this thread and perhaps someone else shared this scripture so please pardon me if I am repeating a concept shared elsewhere.

Anyhow.

As I read through this segment of this thread, my mind went to the following verses, so I am sharing this for your consideration.

Matthew 12:43-45 NASB:

43“Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it.

44“Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came’; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order.

45“Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”

S
sermonindex

As I read through this segment of this thread, my mind went to the following verses, so I am sharing this for your consideration.

Matthew 12:43-45 NASB:

43“Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and does not find it.

44“Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came’; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order.

45“Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.” GinnyRose.

This passage of Scripture falls in towards the end of Matthew chapter 12. The whole of chapter 12 is generational in its character and the generations are those of Israel. This chapter begins with the Law of Moses and ends with Jesus own family being spoken of. There is also in verse 27 a reference to the disciples being “sons” of Israel casting out demons.

Jonah is mentioned and Nineveh as well as the Queen of the South seeking out the Wisdom of Solomon, and they are said to be judges against “this generation”. Just as the “sons” are become judges also. The generation being spoken off is the Generation into which Jesus Himself was born. The chapter also lays a basis of hope for the gentiles, yet it is primarily to do with exposing the condition of the generation Jesus had come to. The Pharisees are the focus of the Lord’s rebukes, but it is “this generation” which is said to be wicked and adulteress. This chapter also is the point in time when the unpardonable sin is committed by the Pharisees. Hereafter Jesus spoke in parables. The latter reference to the Lord own family produces a final setting for understanding that as a result of rejection, only those who followed and believed in Christ would be hence forth called “My mother and My brothers”.

The verses which deal with the house being cleaned are a reference to Christ having delivered everyone who came to Him from demonic or unclean spirits (v 15). It is on this point that the Pharisees blasphemed the Holy Spirit. So its importance is clearly visible. The house which is swept clean is Israel itself. The demoniac in Gerasenes were left in their right mind, but were not allowed to go with Christ. Many in Israel were delivered in this way, yet it was many in Israel that in the end cried out “crucify Him”. There end was indeed worse afterwards than before. Whilst Jesus ministered it was largely the Pharisees who sought to kill Him. It was also the Pharisees who answered the many times it was asked “could this be the Christ” by the people. The people were largely willing to believe in Jesus as the Christ, but the Pharisees were largely unwilling to believe. In the end the people and not the Pharisees had the last say as to whether Jesus would be crucified. Their end was indeed proven to be worse than there beginning.

Is it possible to carry this meaning to “our” generation? Only if we preach the gospel as Christ Himself preached with wisdom, power and mercy. Perhaps this hope will become the defining reality of “our” generation. I certainly hope so. I believe it will be so. Then this generation will also be left without an excuse so that in the end it will be comprehended that God is just when He brings judgement upon the world. It will also mean that the saints will have an opportunity to dress in readiness. In this context, we are become as Israel and like Israel we will no doubt run after signs and wonders and in the end reject the true blessing when it comes because we will not have a mind to follow Christ Himself, preferring the many foolish things we have made our idols. We also will be left without excuse. Some no doubt will truly dress in readiness. May God have mercy.

S
staff

Hi Murrcolr,
Let me say I dont consider the Toronto Blessing is from the lord.
Well in my opinion it must be demonic deception of some kind.
The carry on is not of man or god.
Whether this spirit is a false spirit outpoured or possessing them I just dont know,
The majority of them are Christian that is an important thing to remember,
Yours Staff

S
staff

Hi all,
Just commenting on permission.The demons needed permission to enter the pigs but the unclean spirit in Mark 9.25 didnt need permission to come back and enter into the mans daughter.We know this because Jesus forbid them to go back.It appears that their was some reason that the demons had jurisdiction to go back,

Quote from Bearmaster earlier
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First the demons had to have the permission if Jesus to enter the pigs.
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Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You deaf and mute spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again."
Yours Staff

Z
Zionshield

This is on page 529. Though I could have picked many, this is one of the characteristics of a believer who's mind is influenced by evil spirits. Here's the link:
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/The_Spiritual_Man.pdf


"Upon being fiercely attacked, the mind of the believer loses its ability to think. It falls almost entirely into the hands of evil spirits so that he himself can no longer use it. He cannot think even should he want to, for he is incapable of initiating any thought of his own. Actually myriads of thoughts over which he has no control pass through his mind; he has no power to halt these and initiate his own. The foreign ideas are too overpowering for him to entertain his own. Occasionally he may locate an opening in his mind through which to insert his thought, but he discovers it is very toilsome to continue thinking. So many voices and so many subjects are there already that these simply squeeze his out. If any person desires to think, he must possess memory, imagination and reasoning power; but the Christian has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought."

S
staff

Hi all,
The person who has a deaf and dumb demon could not become a Christian according to some peoples belief without prayer and fasting.And only if the prayer and fasting is successful.The belief I am talking about is that "a Christian cant have a demon"
I wonder how the Christian Deaf Association would respond to that?
Yours Staff

...........................................................
Mark 9:17
And one of the crowd answered Him, "Teacher, I brought You my son, possessed with a spirit which makes him mute ; 18 and whenever it seizes him, it slams him to the ground and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth and stiffens out. I told Your disciples to cast it out, and they could not do it." 19 And He answered them and said, "O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to Me!" 20 They brought the boy to Him. When he saw Him, immediately the spirit threw him into a convulsion, and falling to the ground, he began rolling around and foaming at the mouth. 21 And He asked his father, "How long has this been happening to him?" And he said, "From childhood. 22 "It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!" 23 And Jesus said to him, " 'If You can ?' All things are possible to him who believes." 24 Immediately the boy's father cried out and said, "I do believe ; help my unbelief." 25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You deaf and mute spirit, I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again." 26 After crying out and throwing him into terrible convulsions, it came out; and the boy became so much like a corpse that most of them said, "He is dead !
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