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cloistered homeschool syndrome

P
proudpapa

By Michael Pearl and Debi Pearl

The Foger family came to stay with us one spring about 12 years ago while they were on furlough from Mozambique.

Their eighth child was soon to be delivered. Although I had just met the family, I was highly impressed by them. The oldest daughter, 19 years old, was a joyful, hardworking, energetic, blue-eyed beauty. The next, a 17 year old son, was cut in the mold of his father, dedicated, reserved, and very mission-minded. The five other children were 13 years old and younger. The family sang together with strong, forceful voices, no bashfulness among them. The two oldest children provided the instrumental accompaniment. It was an experience just listening to such a group.

They all understood and spoke two languages. The oldest two children spoke three languages. The father had left South America after ten years of mission service to move to another country, which meant learning another language. The parents still stumbled around slowly learning the Portuguese language. The two oldest children were invaluable in the new ministry, which was already showing promise.

While we sat around one evening, the mother casually asked us to pray that their daughter find a husband before they left for Mozambique in the Fall. I asked in a shocked manner, “Why on earth would you want her to marry now? She is such a blessing to you and knows the language. Surely you need her to help you with the other children.” The mother lifted her arched brows as she pondered how she would answer me. Her look conveyed her surprise at my lack of understanding. “We will be in a foreign country for the next 4 years. All that time she will be at the prime of her marriageable age. We feel it is best for her to marry an American. God called my husband to Mozambique as a missionary…not our adult children. We have obeyed God and raised them up to serve HIM…not US. We don’t add; we multiply. It is time for her to live her life.”
That next year we received a mission card with their picture. There were only six children in the picture. The mission letter briefly stated that the oldest son was in Bible school and the daughter was married.

Over the years I received their missions update. I noted that the parents were growing fatter and grayer. The children disappeared from the picture, one or two every year or so. It was sad to see the diminishing of such a magnificent family. The mission letters were filled with gospel film presentations to prisoners and villagers, church camps, protracted meetings, people getting saved, and only a brief mention of their now grown children. They would write something like, “Joshua and his wife are in Romania serving as missionaries; Peter and his wife are in Russia working with the something ministry; Sara married this year. Her husband is the pastor of a church.” And so it went.

Today we receive mission letters from their now grown and ministering children. I see their families expanding. Their joyful, energetic, blue-eyed beauty of a daughter is now the mother of six children. Her family is growing up in Cajun country. I know if I meet them I will be very impressed. I heard that they sing like soldiers…with power and command.

I am thankful for the testimony of the Foger family as well as other families that have come into our lives. They are a prototype to help us understand the problems that are arising among some older homeschooling families. We call it by different names. Today it is the Cloistered Homeschooled Syndrome. Briefly, it is the failure of the parents to understand, appreciate, and respect the individuality of their adult children. They sacrifice the individual identities of their children on the altar of their own emotional needs, making them nurse when they should be killing and dressing their own food, making them obey when they should be learning to command. They seem to think that grown children are God’s gift to them rather than their gift to God. Through letters and personal contact, we see more and more of this cult-like isolationism, parents demanding absolute allegiance to the family group, and fearing outside contact might break up their “fellowship.” Adult kids who want to launch out on their own are told that they are rebellious and disloyal and are causing grief to those who have nurtured them. Emotionally needy parents manipulate their grown children into remaining loyal to the unit. Thirty-year-old daughters sit at home acting as surrogate mothers, watching their prospects to ever be a mother dwindle.

You cannot stop a tree from growing without killing it or deforming it. Likewise, every year of one’s life up until about the age of twenty-one or twenty-two is a year of radical change and development. Some parents are trying to stop that development, clinging to their teenagers like they were six years old. We have observed the victims many times. They either flee their chains in anger, or they are slowly smothered into inordinate submission, and their personalities die as they merge into the ego of their dependent parents.

This medieval hierarchy is preached as Bible doctrine. Father and Mother as King and Queen of their little kingdom preach the divine right of Kings and parents—“Obey me without question, for it is your manifest destiny.” Their “patriarchal” status is the only expression of their significance in an otherwise disconnected world, and they milk it until their children are dry and lifeless in spirit, or until they fly away to breathe fresh air.

For over a year we have been discussing this subject, thinking about how to address it. We have talked with many young adults who are, or were, held captive, the rebellious and the subdued, those who are disciples of Christ and those who are worldly and lost. We have spoken with families who lost their children early, in their teens, and families who lost a child to the world in their twenties or later.

How did this happen? It is the old pendulum at work. Thirty to forty years ago Christian parents were losing their children to the world through public schools, public churches, and public play. The family was disconnected and dating was the norm. We rebelled against the soul eating monster and took charge of our lives. Our children would not be raised on the TV. They would not lose their virginity in a school bathroom or under the stairwell. No more evolutionary philosophy and godless history and science. We took our children home and taught them from used books and the Bible. We created culture anew, abstaining from mega churches with their youth groups and revolving boy-girl relationships. We parents became the principle influence in our children’s lives, selecting their friends and ours with care. No overnight sleeps or backyard playhouses with closing doors. Family worship and Bible study took the place of Television. Once again parents were in charge and there was hope.
It felt good to be in control of our own destiny, to not be a victim, to know that our children would escape the sin and shame that some of us had to go through before we came to Christ.

There was a vacuum, a need for leaders to arise and define what had become a movement, to clarify our journey and give us direction through uncharted waters. First, curriculum was written, then seminars. Sub-movements arose to flesh out the new culture, specialists addressing every conceivable issue—head coverings, dress, doctrine, spanking, scheduled nursing, Kosher foods and Jewish practices, and the list goes on. Books were written, some good, some not so good. Then someone pulled from ancient Chaldean and Sumerian culture, also practiced by Jews of that day as reflected in Scripture, a system of Patriarchal rule. It was the way nomadic clans were held together, a necessity of the times, but never taught by Moses, the prophets, or Christ as God’s divine plan.

I laughed the first time I hear of the Patriarchal Movement. “It will never fly,” I said, “People are not that gullible.” But they were. Daddies who were never in charge of anything, maybe not even their wives, were finally given justification for assuming the throne. Yippee!

It is now become a disease of epic proportions. We call them PDFs, Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families. The children are treated as permanent property of the parents. If they don’t marry, and many of them never have the opportunity, they remain at home as a sort of indentured servant, never rising to the status of an adult, always under authority of the head of the clan, the Patriarch Daddy. Don’t snicker. A lot of kids are hurting. And if you want to see something scary, try to conduct a betrothal with two patriarchal mothers involved. It is uggggly.
Daughter sits at home serving the younger children and doing Mama’s chores—waiting for God’s choice. Daddy and Mama hold their merchandise guardedly, waiting for a buyer who never comes.

What is pitiful is the whole process is done in hopes of getting the perfect will of God, but one vital ingredient is missing—encouraging your children to become responsible, autonomous, well educated, and experienced adults as soon as possible. You should have trained your sons to be men by the time they are fifteen, independent by the time they are eighteen. Your daughters should be capable of living apart from the family by the time they are eighteen and should be allowed to make their own life’s decisions somewhere between the ages of eighteen and twenty. Unmarried, grown (18 years old) children may remain at home; it is good if they do; but the parent-child relationship should evolve into an adult-adult relationship by the time they are sixteen to eighteen years old. Parents should have earned the right to give advice, and kids should have grown in wisdom enough to ask for it. But a parent should never invoke his parental authority on a grown kid. It is demeaning to both and akin to not being potty trained.

To teach a student to drive or fly a plane and then always make him be in the company of his parents is degrading. You teach them so they can become independent of you. Whose need is being met when a Father treats a 22-year-old girl like a child, dictating the parameters of her choices?
The glory of a parent is to work himself out of a job, to stand back and see his kids fly solo. I expected to have supplanted myself by the time my kids were eighteen. And so it was. Long before that, I began to confer with them adult to adult. I have stepped back and allowed them to make decisions that I knew were not the best choices, and sometimes I was wrong; they were wiser than I.

Space does not allow us to say more at this time. More will come later. Sit down and talk with your nearly grown kids. Ask them what they want, feel, aspire to. Don’t express hurt, and don’t emotionally manipulate them. Encourage them to pursue their dreams and support them in their effort.

In 1996, our daughter Rebekah Joy, then a 20-year-old in training to be a linguist, wrote this poem. At the time, the poem was the future; it was full of promise and hope.
There is a mighty army
Being trained to stand and fight.
A Battlefield of soldiers
Learning what is right.
A Company of warriors
That will boldly take the Word
To every tribe and nation
Til every soul has heard.
There is a mighty army,
I’ve seen them everywhere.
Most are wearing diapers
And dragging Teddy Bears.
Infants in the training
Drilled in right and wrong.
Mom and Dad are making
Soldiers brave and strong.
There is a mighty army
Trained in righteous war.
Cheer them on to victory,
Children of the Lord!

At 22 years old, Rebekah went into a remote mountain range of Papua New Guinea to study the language of a tribe who had never even seen a white person. Her 19-year-old brother, Gabriel, went for a few months, then was replaced by Nathan, her 17-year-old brother. Nathan stayed for a few months until he believed that she would be safe. She was left alone on that mountain with the unreached tribe. After two years, others came to help, and she came home.

It was her understanding of languages that gave us the information needed to pass on to veteran missionary Tom Gaudet. He is a publisher of Bibles into obscure languages. He sent out an appeal on the web for any translator that might have been working on a common language of that area. He received 14 replies. One was from a missionary who had spent 35 years translating the Bible, but when he went home he couldn’t raise the money to get it printed. Tom pulled together all the translators, had them correct each other’s work and settle on a finished manuscript. We raised the money to get 20,000 printed and shipped.

Sending a beautiful, unassertive, young woman is not God’s usual way. He was proving a point. He was making a statement to her, to us and to you. “If I can protect and use this young girl to win a remote tribal people, then I can do the same for you.”

Rebekah kept a diary of those years, which we read when she came home. We wept at her courage and resolve. We wept that we had the honor of being her parents. We published Rebekah’s Diary in 1997. She was such a regular, normal girl until God gave her the vision of reaching a tribe. A few years ago, missionaries contacted us and told us that there are now seven strong villages of believers on that mountain and that the village men proudly carry their Bibles under their arms.
Because a young girl went willingly…
Because we, HER PARENTS, didn’t say no.
Because she would have obeyed us and stayed home.
But we cheered her on to victory…
There are new names written down in glory.

S
sermonindex

If articles like this just stuck to the business of being about just one business and not so many sub-texts they would make a great read and be a source of encouragement. Sadly they don’t do that. The sub-texts are so far from the mark of truth that I truly wonder what was really intended by writing it in the first place.

R
rainydaygirl

by amrkelly on 2012/10/4 6:14:46

If articles like this just stuck to the business of being about just one business and not so many sub-texts they would make a great read and be a source of encouragement. Sadly they don’t do that. The sub-texts are so far from the mark of truth that I truly wonder what was really intended by writing it in the first place.

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i agree with you about this article.

rdg

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ginnyrose

Papa, this article made some valid points - points that will likely be ignored for whatever reason one can come up with.

There are some home-schooled children who have done well and they get a lot of publicity to demonstrate that this is the way to teach ones children. But cloistered homeschooling is not the way to go and this article demonstrates it.

It also shows how one should teach your children to be self-sufficient...

Anyhow, I love this mother's attitude towards her children - they belong to God and not me. A parent must release their child into God's hands to allow Him to deal with them as He wills.

Thanks for posting...

ginnyrose

edited for clarity

S
sermonindex

Papa, this article made some valid points - points that will likely be ignored for whatever reason one can come up with. GinnyRose.

This article does make some valid points. Yet there is no need to guess at the reasons why that which is valid is lost, nor less to impute “other” reasons without explicit reference to them.

If something is worth saying then say it plainly.

It is not ignorance which made me post but certain knowledge; both of home schooling itself, which is claimed to be at the heart of the OP, as well as the lies which are hidden in the post.

The experiences which were said to inform this article came from two sources. One were experiences of home schooling or families who “lost” their children because they allegedly failed as parents to equip them for independence, or else ended up possessing their children like devils for selfish gratification. The other was one family which due entirely to the fact that they were missionaries brought their children up to be missionaries. Yes the children of this family are clearly very blessed and they are a good testimony to their parents and the Lord working in their lives.

However, there is also a sub-text which informs this article and that amounts to a demonic presentation, at the heart of which is a lie. We should not confuse experience with spiritual reality if they in fact contradict one another. How would anyone reading this article take anything from it with regards to home schooling their children by simply reading about fearful and selfish parents holding onto their children in a way which in the end becomes unhealthy? Many parents both believing and unbelieving hold onto their children in this way. It is an age old reality.

In seeking to address this perceived reality the writer makes inaccurate claims that patriarchy is a Chaldean and Sumerian culture which is incidentally practised by the Jews of “that day”. Get real! The sister who wrote this article, no doubt with the approval and blessing of her husband, should get some education herself. This claim is tantamount to saying that having a pater familiar as the head of the house is a Babylonian invention. What nonsense. The family is a government as well as a cult and it is one which was ordained by God Himself. By very reason of authority it must be so. You don’t mock and deride something of such profound importance in order to establish something which is another kind of truth altogether; that of failing to present our children to God equipped and well educated for His service and purposes.

Home schooling our children does not make them more or less likely to be able to have an intelligent and reasonable relationship with God. If we ourselves are fearful as parents and likewise selfish we will ruin our children in any regard. I asked my son James, who is 18 years old, whether he thought in his own mind that he was an independent thinker or had achieved true adult responsibility. He said “no”. So in a momentary panic I asked whether he thought that he would have done so by the time he was 21 years. He said “yes”. Is this an adequate enquiry? That depends on whether he gets drunk, smokes cigarettes, takes heroin or smokes pot, has sex under the stairs or spends his time practising ungodliness so that he can truly know whether he is independent. I prefer to measure this pater familial concern by whether he is able to exercise his youthful inclination towards obedience and thence towards God in Whom I trust, in his sight as his father, and not whether I have taught him to rebel as I once rebelled. Still this may just be old fashioned. Only God Himself knows.

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sermonindex

The Pearls are the type of teachers that you really have to use discernment with. They have written and taught some very important and good things... and sometimes they have written and taught some very kooky odd ball things.

I also agree that this article is all over the place and hard to read. This is because Mr. Pearl fancies himself to be an author, and he is truly not. But he keeps writing books anyway, and thats ok. This is America.

Krispy

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sermonindex

I do not perceive the posted article as being demonic and so forth. But raising valid concern in what can take place if children are homeschooled in the way the artcce suggests. There are certain patterns if homeschooling that can take place. That almost be percjeved as cultic. Without mentioning names the children that come out if this particular homeschooling environment have been sheltered. Some cannot relate to the world in which they live.

Yet tbeir are benefits to hone schooling if done in Christ centrted healthy way. My sister homeschooled my three nephews who turned out very well.

I would line to point out that not all Christian children are homeschooled for various reasons. There is a high school student who comes on this forumwgo by her post infers she attends a public school. Yet lives the Lord. We need to remember those students God gas placed in the public schools to be a light to the unsaved.

My thoughts.

Bearnaster.

G
ginnyrose

____________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"Briefly, it is the failure of the parents to understand, appreciate, and respect the individuality of their adult children. They sacrifice the individual identities of their children on the altar of their own emotional needs, making them nurse when they should be killing and dressing their own food, making them obey when they should be learning to command. They seem to think that grown children are God’s gift to them rather than their gift to God. Through letters and personal contact, we see more and more of this cult-like isolationism, parents demanding absolute allegiance to the family group, and fearing outside contact might break up their “fellowship.” Adult kids who want to launch out on their own are told that they are rebellious and disloyal and are causing grief to those who have nurtured them. Emotionally needy parents manipulate their grown children into remaining loyal to the unit."
____________________________________________________________


I would love to hear a discussion on this particular issue. I call it an issue because it does exist. I have seen it. AND it ain't pretty.

ginnyrose

G
ginnyrose

______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"I have seen it. AND it ain't pretty."
______________________________________________________________

So, what does it look like in reality?

The father is domineering, the wife silent. The children have no clue how to function apart from dad. Once they grow up their frustration kicks in and off they go. They become estranged from dad. And mom? She is quiet like a puppy.

We have seen a family where the dad fathered a lot of girls. He is the one that did all the shopping for the entire family, even for the personal items for his daughters! We women think he must be a pervert. Stories are told how these girls have no clue how to shop for themselves! Yes, they home-schooled.

Another family...the dad was critical of all churches. He limited his boys social life...The boys grew up to be rebellious and hold their dad in low esteem.

Another. The dad promised his daughters they would inherit a large share of the farm if they stayed with him farming it. They did but later had serious regrets yielding to his control and manipulation.

Yes, these are people I know, some better then others.

Dad and mom are not going to be living forever on this planet. Since this is the case it is the parent's job to train the children to become independent so they can function on their own and put themselves out of a job.

God bless.

EDITED

S
sermonindex

I do not perceive the posted article as being demonic and so forth. But raising valid concern in what can take place if children are home schooled in the way the article suggests. There are certain patterns if home schooling that can take place. That [can] almost be perceived as cultic. Without mentioning names the children that come out if this particular home schooling environment have been sheltered. Some cannot relate to the world in which they live. bearmaster.

The same argument was presented regarding children who were Sunday schooled fifty years ago by behavioural sociologists and psychologists concerned about “Christian children” whose parents didn’t make a very good job of bringing their children up; as it was perceived. Today there is a scoring system based on theoretical models of behaviour which when applied to adults with drug problems and anger issues, follow the same pattern. After about 15 minutes of a “client” sharing their problems in which they begin with “my parents sent me to Sunday school” or “I was in a choir” or “my parents were religious” but “I’m bad” the “councillor” jubilantly explains that, “they” have a personality disorder. You may in fact be schizophrenic or be oppressed by unclean spirits but you will find no meaningful help beyond a rationalistic response that you need to take charge of your life.

The sad thing is that this understanding may well be accurate in may cases. Satan does take advantage of idealistic views of life which for many reasons have little substance in them. In experience isolation from real life can produce a lack of confidence and even fear. But so can going to school and experiencing real life to its full. The world understands better than anyone that independent thinking is necessary to independent actions. Not all parents disagree with this and hence they may opt for a public or state schooling option believing that home schooling will produce the opposite. Personally I would say that those parents who are inclined to be fearful over their children will produce some likely “negative” outcomes regardless of where their children are educated. I have also met with parents who are fearful, but at the same time wouldn’t deliberately hold their children back from normal rational development and in the end know that their children will have to “work it out” if they cannot be taught to restrain themselves because they have been indoctrinated by the world from a young age. There are no simple answers.

As for my reference to a demonic sub-text I was referring to the mockery which is evident in some of the comments and its direction. Not only is this article all over the place, academically, it is singularly presenting an idea that patriarchy is a Babylonian invention. Given that the article could only really be of any use to believers this amounts to a demonic imputation. If the article were read by an unbeliever who was well informed about the problem of many patriarchal families, it would be understandably agreed to. But for a believer it amounts to a contribution to a wearing down of the importance of authority of parents and especially fathers’ which together are the elected government of God in every nation on earth. The problem lies as always with the fact that most accusations against the saints can be substantiated and this substantiation tends to wear down those who have experienced patriarchal abuse or unreasonable control as children into adult life; thereby making it seem reasonable to thrown away the foundation for all government. In every sphere of life this parental governing principle is being divided not just by dividing by gender distinctions, it is also being divided by destroying any claim to gender distinctions whatsoever.

Home schooling should be about education and development of children. Regardless of whether its popularity in the 80’s and 90’s has produced a rush of literature which has shaped and informed it; the principle is a matter of parental choice and not theoretical or so-called spiritual directives. As a trustee of an independent private Christian school, as well as a home-schooled family, it is ironic to me that whilst the children at my own school manage by and large to behave themselves and do well at school, almost all of their difficulties attend to witnessing their parents stumble. This would seem to suggest that these children would be better off at an independent private school yet to say that would be truly arrogant and divisive.

Many of the parents of the children at the school (who were almost always previously home schoolers) exhibit a degree of fear about their children and regularly express it. The head teacher has been abused more times than it is possible to believe, mostly because parents are full of fear and concern. I don’t believe that this article in the OP has anything to do with home schooling. Certainly it has nothing to do with helping to make the issue any more clear or understandable. The balance of intelligence in the article lies squarely in the ball park of a single family’s successes on the mission field with their own family. Most by far who love the Lord are not in that position and don’t experience life in that way. They have to deal with the realities of a western culture which is hell bent on destroying family life as it has been understood and experienced from the beginning. If there is to be a male and a female in the house together then let it be a male and a female and a male and a female. No father’s no Mother’s, no son’s and no daughter’s. It is just a herd or a group of individuals doing their own thing in a spirit of independence. Such a presentation lends itself very well to giving rise to homosexuality as a valid alternative. This conception may well be intellectually vulgar but it is a spiritual ambition and therefore a reality in the land.

Abusive and domineering husbands, shopping for their daughters is perverse, but that too has nothing to do with home schooling. If you are really wondering what it has to do with I can tell you straight ways. It is about control by whatever means. This too has nothing to do with home schooling. There is only a vulgar correlation between abusive men and home schooling. There is no correlation between home schooling and the patriarchal family however. To make the connection is perverse and has more to do with doctrines of demons than it has to do with an understanding and compassionate mind for those young people who have been badly served by their parents, for whatever reason. There is one final sub-meaning which may be in this article, and it is an intellectual one. “Don’t home school your children at all. It is bad for them."

R
rainydaygirl

Abusive and domineering husbands, shopping for their daughters is perverse, but that too has nothing to do with home schooling. If you are really wondering what it has to do with I can tell you straight ways. It is about control by whatever means. This too has nothing to do with home schooling. There is only a vulgar correlation between abusive men and home schooling. There is no correlation between home schooling and the patriarchal family however. To make the connection is perverse and has more to do with doctrines of demons than it has to do with an understanding and compassionate mind for those young people who have been badly served by their parents, for whatever reason. There is one final sub-meaning which may be in this article, and it is an intellectual one. “Don’t home school your children at all. It is bad for them."

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great post, that was exactly what i got from reading the article. after reading this article i was very unsettled and i think i now know why.

thanks
rdg

P
proudpapa

I would encourage some of the posters to reread the article and check out the Pearls pro home school websight http://nogreaterjoy.org/ , and repent of there misrepresenting slander.

S
sermonindex

Thanks for pointing to the website which I have not read through. I can see that it has a home school pro stance. I accept therefore that my final comment of my last post was ill founded. However I did state that this was a may and not a was concern. I do not retract any other part whatsoever.

J
Jeremy221

I read several articles from the website and went from seeing things that seemed right on to pop psychology gibberish to out right junk. After my reading I noticed the title of the site which references 3 John verse 4 which states, "I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth." When this passage is applied to physical offspring rather than the spiritual offspring, problems will ensue. We must seek the Lord ourselves everyday and walk by His Spirit, testing the spirits as to whether they are of God. When I read material like this and then see the mixture of promoting this gospel of homeschooling through selling their products for them, it is unsettling. Be wary of what you read on the No Greater Joy website.

If you missed what I was referring to, you can find it here:

http://nogreaterjoy.org/shop/distributors/distributorship-program/

P
proudpapa

The Characteristics of a Dysfunctional Patriarch

•A dysfunctional patriarch believes he has a divine right and mandate to not just lead, but to command his wife and children perpetually. The key word is “perpetually.”
•A dysfunctional patriarch finds personal satisfaction in the power of his authority.
•A dysfunctional patriarch doesn’t have confidence in his ability to train his children or in their ability to overcome the world, so he protects them from temptation.
•A dysfunctional patriarch discovers that his elevated position meets some deep unfulfilled needs to be respected and honored, something he may not have fulfilled outside the home.
•A dysfunctional patriarch makes his leadership role the centerpiece of his Christian experience.
•A dysfunctional patriarch uses his family and their submission to the process as a way to commend himself to others and gain respect and honor.
•A dysfunctional patriarch is in search of community and seeks to establish it in his family.
•A dysfunctional patriarch is fearful of and suffers a sense of loss at the thought of the breakup of his family unit. This is the most telling characteristic of a dysfunctional patriarch.
•A dysfunctional patriarch will use guilt to control his children and prevent them from developing independence.
•A dysfunctional patriarch ends up holding his sons and daughters back from life, rather than helping them build a life.
•A dysfunctional patriarch is most likely to be an Amillennialist or Postmillennialist—anything but a Premillennialist. Accordingly, he believes the church has replaced Israel, and thus views the family much like a Jewish theocracy—trying to emulate the ancient Middle Eastern cultural forms, which are incidentally revealed in the Hebrew Scriptures. Vision Forum Ministries actually admits to returning to the Law in support of the Patriarchal doctrine:
“It is in the context of such ‘testing times’ that God’s people are often reminded to ‘open the lost book of The Law,’ and return to the ancient paths — the eternal, unchanging truths found within the pages of Holy Scripture.”
—The Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy, VisionForum.com

The Characteristics of a True Patriarch
•A true patriarch never demands respect; he inspires his children to greatness through example.
•A true patriarch teaches his children to choose the good and reject the evil, and provides carefully-controlled exposure to temptation and careful admonition.
•A true patriarch passes along his wisdom and culture—“here a little, there a little,” as they “walk in the way.”
•A true patriarch does not invoke his authority to avoid discussion and reason by his children.
•A true patriarch does not act like someone on a throne, but like the Lord Jesus, with a towel girt about his loins in service.
•A true patriarch does not covet his authority. He knows that his job is not to remain at the head of the parade, but to train his children to take the baton and lead, following their Heavenly Father.
•A true patriarch, like John the Baptist, knows he must decrease and has his joy fulfilled when his children leave him to follow their calling in life by God. He will actually rejoice to see that his children are walking in truth—on their own!
•As you read these two contrasting lists, you may have noted that the most prominent characteristic of each is the attitude of the father in regard to the specific duration of his authority over his children. The father who believes that God designed the family unit to exist as a clan, a pyramid ruled by the eldest male, with grown children expected to remain under their father’s umbrella of authority long after they have reached natural maturity, produces what we call the dysfunctional patriarchal family.


http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/the-balanced-patriarch/

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proudpapa

With all religious material including modern bible translations we need to use disernment and be wary. I am not promoting no greater joy, But much of there material is correct and informational as is the artical here that I posted.

As far as the Link that you posted. I would encourage you to do some more research and report back to everyone what the money that NGJ recieves is used for.

P
proudpapa

I am completely astonished at the posters (posters that I greatly respect)that are going to great lengths to undermine the artical that I posted. I would leave it alone, but to clearly mislead the intent and the underlying message of the artical is unexcusable.
If I know religious pride, I would expect that rather than admit wrong doing many are going to side step the artical altogether and search out arears of fault within NGJ in order not to prove the article as in error but rather to undermine NGJ altogather.
what a shame what carnality.

W
wayneman

I know a Mennonite couple who not only home-schooled their kids but forbade them to associate with unsaved kids, which included most of the Youth Group, in their judgment. Well, their oldest went off to a summer Bible camp and suffered a nervous breakdown from which he has never recovered. It was his first excursion outside the cloister, and he snapped.

That is anecdotal, of course, and not the norm. But I have known only one home-schooling couple whose kids turned out healthy, happy, well-behaved, devout, etc. Every other home-schooled kid I know is cranky, disobedient and displays what neo-Freudians call "Oppositional Defiance Disorder." And when they get to be teenagers, then the real trouble begins.

I think the reason for this is not that home schooling in itself is a bad thing, but because most home-schoolers employ these elaborately weird "soul-sculpting" and "positive/negative reinforcement" parenting techniques. Instead of saying, "Hezekiah" - (home schoolers tend to give their children flamboyantly biblical names) - Instead of saying, "Hezekiah, stop that;" they say, "Hezekiah, I want you to stop that - obey me, OK?" And of course the kid always does the opposite of what he's told.

The problem is not home schooling; the problem is that home schooling has become a cottage industry for amateur pop psychologists.

P
proudpapa

Hi wayneman, What you wrote you beautifully summarizes what the artical was combating and my intensions for posting the artical,
What you wrote is a realty and one that I have observed much within my own circle.

neither I nor the author of the artical are anti homeschool nor hidden agenda feminist. just the exact opposit rather.
The artical was written in a magazine whose target audience are homeschool familys. addressing some problems that are common place within many homeschool familys, in hopes that they would see the error of there ways and creat a house hold more in tune with the scripture rather than with some of extreme Patriarch societys of the past.

It is a shame that we can not post an artical without its intent being scrutinized as some kind of feminist demonic conspiracy mixed with the works of sigman froid.

J
jochbaptist

Must say, I found the jist and info on this post well worth reading and taking note of.

Thanks for sharing proudpapa, and your blessed reactions ginnyrose.
AK, KK ...? I am tempted to say something, but then I won't be able to press "Submit" with a clear conscience ....

S
savannah

You can listen to a great message by Tim Conway by clicking the following link:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=61506205713

Be blessed!

G
ginnyrose

I am not against homeschooling. But there are problems within the movement that would best be addressed and acted upon by those in it. If it is not one could well see it eventually be forbidden, or outlawed because of the abuse of it by a few - this is why many laws are written up and enacted.

FYI, our youngest son was home-schooled...

S
sermonindex

I am completely astonished at the posters (posters that I greatly respect) that are going to great lengths to undermine the article that I posted. I would leave it alone, but to clearly mislead the intent and the underlying message of the article is inexcusable.

If I know religious pride, I would expect that rather than admit wrong doing many are going to side step the article altogether and search out arrears of fault within NGJ in order not to prove the article as in error but rather to undermine NGJ altogether.

what a shame what carnality. prodpapa.

The article in question in the OP is the only thing worth commenting on and probably the only thing to be commented on. Yet it does not stand in isolation of the mind which conceived it nor the profit which is made from its effect. The NGJ is no concern of mine. Why would it be? But the mind of understanding is very much my concern. As to whether anyone has gone to “great lengths” I can’t see it. As to the validity of commenting on this article, as well as what those comments prove to be is a matter of individual conscience and understanding. It cannot be judged on how it is reacted too. I was really quiet angry when I read the original article. It took me some time to think about it before I responded. At the time I wrote about what I read in the article and had nothing whatsoever to do with a family or a ministry. As the article was posted without context it therefore could only be viewed in its own context (What was posted was grounded in the article itself). Having re-read what I posted and the article itself I haven’t changed my mind. In fact the links you yourself provided if followed through fully will make the case that psychological ideas and natural wisdom lies at the heart of it. As to the whole purpose and direction of the web site it speaks for itself.

As to the additional material which you have provided regarding what a true Patriarch is, makes this case even more clearly. The first list regarding false patriarchy is entirely natural and psychological in character. The second is mostly extra biblical. You don’t establish a proper understanding of what constitutes the family biologically speaking with the responsibilities which every member has by diminishing its true meaning and thereafter spiritualising it with a separate truth that we should present our children to God for His service.

This is the stated conclusion and purpose of these two lists.

As you read these two contrasting lists, you may have noted that the most prominent characteristic of each is the attitude of the father in regard to the specific duration of his authority over his children. The father who believes that God designed the family unit to exist as a clan, a pyramid ruled by the eldest male, with grown children expected to remain under their father’s umbrella of authority long after they have reached natural maturity, [and] produces what we call the dysfunctional patriarchal family. Mike Pearl.

Well the two lists would produce a prominent characteristic wouldn’t they? They were written precisely for that purpose. The principle thing which retrains lawlessness throughout the world is parental authority and patriarchal respect. Presenting our children to God is another matter entirely. They are not connected in this way. Psychology has made of this a thing to be mocked and ridiculed and even many sisters have fallen into the error of calling the Apostle Paul a sexist or else ignorant because he took such a clear position with regard to the issue of male and female authority, yet Paul was concerned primarily with the church and not the home. And this is just the point. The Patriarchy of a family is not essentially characterised by spiritual authority it is a specific physical relationship instituted in Genesis by the creation of a man (male) first, and a female (woman) thereafter. Only after this does Paul then say “Eve was deceived, Adam was not”. Only with regard to deception does the issue of spiritual authority take on a significant meaning. So that the issue of whether a sister should teach in the church has relevance. What a sister does within the home is between a husband and a wife. The saying" I forbid a woman to even speak in the church" is a reference to asking questions, because all such asking has in it an implication of authority. Yet at the same time a women should not have authority over the church. Just like asking a Judge questions and insisting on it would be regarded as lawless by a judge. No doubt some saints have been led astray generally in a misunderstanding or else making a wilful misrepresentation of Biblical Truth, which suits many men, taking pride in their own physical lives, thereafter subjecting their wives and children to a physical experience of life which can easily be characterised by a man “profiting” from his family. In the end this is a matter for a man and his wife. If we present teachings from a woman in order to circumnavigate this reality we will be found to have become lawless ourselves. And regardless of how this arrangement is construed it makes for a ruin of churches and the establishing of doctrines of demons because the church itself embraces these doctrines without realising that they amount to natural wisdom and not spiritual truth.

This has nothing to do with feminism or so-called Jezebel spirits or attitudes.

Some sisters go the complete opposite way of speaking about the Apostle Paul and go along with a bigoted and proud conception of patriarchy laying the rod on their children with as much enthusiasm as seems necessary, as well as constraining their children with chords of words which amount to witchcraft in their effect. No wonder some poor children and up being harmed. All of this if it is kept within the constraint of seeking to understand family life then it may well be helpful to some home schooling families experiences and difficulties. But to ridicule and mock patriarchy in order to establish it by spiritualising it is a denial of its principle character, which is physical.

None of it is personal.

It must be self-evident that home schooling is subject to the home itself. It may be worth drawing a simple distinction here. The church can be in the home, but if the ground for the church became the family then the church itself would be governed by a family. So if the church is in one particular family home it could become subject to that family. There is some reality to this because we are told that an elder must be the husband of one wife. Yet we are not told that when the church meets in homes that it should be subject to the family in that particular home. This is more easily understood in the saying “the church in your house” (Philemon 1:1). The church is in the house, but it is not in the family. On the other hand a family may be divided by the gospel yet still be for all that a family. It stands to reason that this business of home schooling one’s own children falls into a different understanding of in the family. There is nothing invalid about children being subject to their Fathers and mothers under authority and at the same time being educated. But if in seeking to understand why some children have rebelled or else become ill as a result of this reality of authority then one would naturally be inclined to look at the family itself to understand this. To say that “our children are not God’s gift to us, but that they are our gift to God” is also spiritualising something and thereby denying half the truth. Our children are God’s gift to us, but if we are born again, they can also become our obedience to God in accepting that if they are going to serve God well, they would be better equipped if they are able to walk as meaningful adults; thereby becoming a gift to God in that sense. Before our children can ever serve God they must become a new creature not a member of a functional herd.

This is a spiritualisation of children and a complete denial of what family life really is. It is in the first instance a physical relationship based on a physical dependency. Thereafter it is a physical outworking. There is no need to spiritualise family life at all. It is already real. Having read the articles of faith of the Pearl family ministry web site the section “MAN” spells this idea of a physical reality out very well. However it does so in a wrong understanding of the fall of Adam himself into sin. That wrong teaching is then transposed into an understanding of children, so that the saying:

I am thankful for the testimony of the Foger family as well as other families that have come into our lives. They are a prototype to help us understand the problems that are arising among some older home schooling families. We call it by different names. Today it is the Cloistered Home schooled Syndrome. Briefly, it is the failure of the parents to understand, appreciate, and respect the individuality of their adult children.

Then becomes:

They sacrifice the individual identities of their children on the altar of their own emotional needs, making them nurse when they should be killing and dressing their own food, making them obey when they should be learning to command.

There is always a doctrinal understanding as to what informs the things we claim to believe. If we put it into publication with the mind to influence others then it will be challenged. To compare or contrast “nurse” with “kill, dress and command” is pure intellectualism or else it is an idea arising out of a more fundamental belief. In this instance it is in the articles of faith. It lends itself to believing natural wisdom whereas what home educators need, more than anything is a better understanding of what education means, as well as what it means to be a family in the first instance. I have no doubt that this is what the Pearly family are seeking to do. An attempt is being made to show that when a family goes wrong, the education of the children may go wrong as well. But to assert that the “Foger family” or any number of families are a prototype to understanding what should constitute the right attitude of a family may be simple vanity and pride in one’s own family on the part of those who boast in it. The Foger family are not, they cannot be because they are not in the church, they are in the mission field and the mission field prescribes its own consequences by very nature of its ambition. For the vast majority of believers, the family is in the church. Not the family as the church. If this foundation is wrong then everything else we understand about family life as believers, may be wrong because of the enemy who is always seeking to destroy that which is good. Similarly if our understanding of the fall of the first man, Adam is wrong, and we make a doctrine of it, then we will inevitably apply that doctrine to understanding the family itself, because the family is patriarchal in character, even as Adam is the seed from which all physical families have arisen.

Thanks for sharing proudpapa, and your blessed reactions ginnyrose.
AK, KK ...? I am tempted to say something, but then I won't be able to press "Submit" with a clear conscience ....jochbaptist

No KK just AK. You understand.

P
proudpapa

Hi brother amrkelley,

Is it possable that you have misconstrued both the artical and its intent??

In Which I would say that you have already conceded to the fact that indeed you have done just that to some extent in that you admit:

RE: amrkelley wrote ///Thanks for pointing to the website which I have not read through. I can see that it has a home school pro stance. I accept therefore that my final comment of my last post was ill founded.///

Therefore since you of your own admission have already conceded to the fact that at least to some extent that you are not without error when it comes to interpreting the underlining intent of this article, could it then be possible that you may have in your initital reading created in your own mind some more distorted preconceived impressions that were never intended by the author nor received by the casual reader ??

RE: AK wrote ///The article in question in the OP is the only thing worth commenting on and probably the only thing to be commented on. Yet it does not stand in isolation of the mind which conceived it nor the profit which is made from its effect.///

It is for this exact fact, having myself unlike yourself observed much literature over several years from the mind which conceived it that causes me to realize clearly that you have both exaggerated and distorted the theme of the article, which is a very serious and unacceptable thing to do.

RE: AK. wrote ///It cannot be judged on how it is reacted too. I was really quiet angry when I read the original article.///

Dear brother of course you were quite angry when you first read it, you jumped to an unjustified defensive stance mistaking that the underlining theme as antitrue patriarch and antihomeschooling. Of the which if the case was true which it has been proven is not, we all would be in full agreement with you.
And from that very initial foundation you have created your entire perception and rather than admitt wrong, you all the more press on.
Your Rhetoric skills by far surpass most anyone else's on these forums by which you are gifted but with such a gift you must be on guard my dear brother. And as for me, and possibly others, your style of articulating your thoughts is far above my (our) reading comprehension and I would encourage you to write in a way that is more clear and to the point.

RE: AK wrote ///Having re-read what I posted and the article itself I haven’t changed my mind.///

That my dear friend is an extremely confident statement with the relization that one has attributed the such as being a doctrine of demons and has already conceded to being somewhat in error to understanding an underlining submeaning.

Re AK also wrote ///I accept therefore that my final comment of my last post was ill founded. However I did state that this was a may and not a was concern. I do not retract any other part whatsoever///

But dear brother as I reread through your posts, it seems clearly that much of what you refuse to retract was written from a wrong mislead preconception of that ill founded mindset, not just the final comment. Your final comment was no small one. It revealed clearly, without argument, what appeared more subtly throughout the rest of your writing.
You concluded or basically summerized your entire perspective by your final comment, that is what the final paragraph or sentance normally does.
Wisely you covered your tracks by using the phrase (may), for you at that time had no concrete evidence of such slander. But regardless the distorted misrepresented poision was set forth and the following post by a poster was clear evidence that it was recieved as intended, even though it was an out right misconception.

Brother you have taken an artical that was intended only to combat the extremes of some problems within the homeschool movement, and you have:

1.)Slandered it academically. This is ill founded in itself and of which is intended for no other reason than to give an impression that the authors opinion is of little significance because they do not come to up to your level of acadamia. That is a most proud and boastful statement in itself and reminds me of something I have heard from some overtly proud elitest making the same claim about the inspired book of Peter.

2.)Attributed as having a demonic imputation. This is a most serious accusation ecpecialy if one is wrong and you have already agreed that you where wrong to some extent in understanding the submessage.

3.)Attributing the article as a beginning downward slide for ///destroying any claim to gender distinctions///
///making it seem reasonable to thrown away the foundation for all government///


I have found it very disturbing that the very impressions that some of the posters are getting and potraying from this article and from visiting the websight are 100% opposite of the facts. They have greatly missterotyped the article so that they cannot think past their overtly sceptical spirit.

Could it be possible that we have approached the article from somewhat of a conspiracy theorist view??
Could it be possible that maybe the intent of the artical was one to soley address an issue of patriarchal abuse and unreasonable control of children into adult life??

G
ginnyrose

papa,

You have not been on SI very long so you may not be aware that there are a few topics that is sure to invite conflicts because people do not read the posts carefully. The title is sure enough to raise the ire of some with homeschooling being among these topics. People have very strong opinions about it...and they are just that: opinions.

Just thought I would inform you... But you know what, it might be that in time people would come to an understanding of what Scripture says and use it as a basis to understand issues as they arise. I have seen it happen here on SI and now that is a blessing!

S
sermonindex

Brother thank you for your thoughtful and kind response to my posts and for making a way of escape. That is very gracious and I am blessed by it.

You have no idea just how much I would like in my natural mind to take that way of escape and simply say “I was wrong”. As a matter of fact your first reply to the OP beginning with “wow” was my first inclination that what I had written would have a hurtful effect. This has been not only true for you with regards to my original two posts, but one other was much more affected by my part retraction. I am always willing to lay the rod to myself and knew very well what an opportunity for the enemy retracting any part would have unless at the same time I laid myself in the dust as well. But false humility is worse than pride because it is more deceptive. Pride though it is wrong is at least honest. I have no difficulty accepting that pride comes along very easily to the flesh, but I do know the difference between my pride and spiritual warfare which comes to the mind in an instant when one humbles oneself even in a small way, and which would drive one to an unreasonable foolishness in denying a discernment no matter how difficult it is to demonstrate.

At the time I was driving from Cornwall to East Lincolnshire some 350 miles at 03:00 HRS BST and read your initial reply whilst I had stopped for a coffee. My reply was made in two motives. Firstly to acknowledge the final conclusion of my post regarding the possibility that the OP was against home schooling, was simply wrong. The second was secondary and was a natural reaction to the realisation that another poster had thanked me for making the point. I may have misunderstood this but I believe that this is so. Having made a definitive statement about something which was wrong, I wanted to make an equally definitive statement that as regards to the rest of what I had said I had not changed my mind for the sake of that person and not my sake. This was not a mechanism for covering my tracks as you suggest, but was in fact absolutely straight forwards and honest.

As to whether I believed that the OP was in some way completely against home schooling I didn’t give that any thought until I was concluding what I wrote. It was an afterthought and not a determining influence or belief. As a matter of fact I was angry; but that anger had nothing to do with perceptions about how the article was intended or how it might impact home schooling families. It was entirely to do with some of the expressions used in the article which to my mind were insulting and amounted to a mockery of heads of households. Whether that was in fact a genuine reflection of the writer is become itself seemingly wrong by virtue of the article you have posted by the same author entitled the Jezebel profile. This was the reason you posted it. Yet my anger was just that anger, it did not amount to sin. My discernment about the demonic imputations which are in the article is real and I have now worked out and understand why I had such discernment. Not only this I could very easily demonstrate them as well in such terms as it could not possibly be misunderstood or denied. I have touched on the basis of it in the last post I made and have only restrained myself from uncovering it because I can see from the website of the author they are a lovely family and it would be wrong to be so explicit. Again anyone wishing to understand this could just read the last post and give it a little thought and consideration.

Regardless of my own reactions and thoughts, I am well able to test my own words and establish them or else deny them. But what good would that really do if it was done in an open attempt to discredit a person or family. It would only amount to spiritual or fleshy pride. In reposting I have explained myself clearly and anyone desiring to read them thoughtfully will grasp what I am saying. If not then it is of no importance to them. I intend to post a comprehensive article separately which will deal with the issue of Jezebelic teachings and if anyone desires to read that they will likewise comprehend just how subtle and devise Satan really is in this area of imputing ideas through experiential truth psychology and natural wisdom. And don’t keep our teachings fully and completely grounded in Scriptures. This is why I speak of demonic imputations and doctrines of demons. The truth is always very simple, and a lie is in the end always very simple. It is much more difficult to uncover what it is which one discerns than it is to explain them to others.

Do I regret posting at any level of understanding? Yes had I been able to view the website first I feel sure that I would have taken the view that it wasn’t worth posting in the face of such a visible presentation of family life and generational patriarchy without an express leading of the Holy Spirit.

R
rainydaygirl

The second was secondary and was a natural reaction to the realisation that another poster had thanked me for making the point. I may have misunderstood this but I believe that this is so. Having made a definitive statement about something which was wrong, I wanted to make an equally definitive statement that as regards to the rest of what I had said I had not changed my mind for the sake of that person and not my sake.
----

i am the one who thanked you and agreed with what you posted. i still don't like the op article but its no big deal. Ginnyrose said it, we all have our opinions. the article did not sit right with me but maybe it has something to do with me. since i have zero involvement with Patriarch families with the exception to my F.I.L. whom i have not spoken to in years i can't say for sure.

Papa i am sorry if anything that i said caused you troubles. i really don't want to cause hurt to anyone. i really do think posting in forums is a mine field perhaps i would be best to just stay clear.

have a great weekend
rdg
edited

P
proudpapa

Dear Brother amrkelly, I want to appologize for wrongly interpeting your motives and I want to appologize for any ways in which I misconstued your intensions. and I am not saying this lightly you trully and clearly showed your heart and motives by what you have wrote in this last post and I trully regret the style and much of what I wrote in my previous post.

It does not appear that we will come to agreement on this article but I want you to know I greatly respect you and many of the things that you have written on other topics and look forward to learning much from you in the future.

S
sermonindex

Dear Brother amrkelly, I want to appologize for wrongly interpeting your motives and I want to appologize for any ways in which I misconstued your intensions. and I am not saying this lightly you trully and clearly showed your heart and motives by what you have wrote in this last post and I trully regret the style and much of what I wrote in my previous post.

It does not appear that we will come to agreement on this article but I want you to know I greatly respect you and many of the things that you have written on other topics and look forward to learning much from you in the future. proudpapa.

Thank you brother you are a blessing. I am coming to the belief that my time on SI is helping me to prepare my mind for the work which lies ahead. A fleeting glimpse of one’s own motives is one thing, being able to lay them before ourselves fully, before others and God to have them tested is the more difficult part. I often wrestle with this problem of pride even though I surely do love the Truth. Learning to serve others in practical ways such as physical service and even having compassion on their circumstances comes easy to me. Perhaps this is because I have known all of that suffering myself in the past. But pride is always a destroyer of peace. Strangely it has been life’s troubles which have taught me to be self-dependant and this leads to pride. Satan is the one who drove the suffering and he is also the one who comes to attack when we wrestle with its consequences. Only coming to know Christ has made the difference, yet Christ demands a more exacting obedience than the enemy of our souls. Not by being driven as Satan drives; rather a simple righteous demand to be obedient and to trust Him with the consequences. It has only been in the past few months that I have begun to realise that although I trust God with the Truth, I don’t have much of an ability to trust The Lord with my own family. I don't mean to say that I don't know that God is as much for my wife and children as he is for all wives and children. But I have stood as a sentinel at the head of my house and resisted every conception of wickedness which has popped its face above the wall. I don't restrain my children with unreasonable demands, I simply lay waste to the enemy at every opportunity and perceived necessity. If this were not a spiritual reality to me I would probably do what many families do, and find myself in the same place as those poor souls. I am speaking about destruction and misery. I am not lying. I have seen some truly shocking things happen in families when Satan gets a foot hold because of a parent or sometimes both parents. As a matter of just realising it I see that my struggle with the article in question was most likely partly fuelled by this knowledge. Regardless of what has been said one thing stands out at the heart of the article and that is the need to trust God with our children’s lives. We could add "and be prepared to suffer ourselves if God uses them and they too suffer in obedience to God." It is so very difficult to sift my own heart at times. Pride as well as the attacks of the enemy makes it so, but a brother or sister coming in the spirit of grace even if that appears like a rod always seems to produce a good outcome. Beyond that I am always willing to lay the rod to myself. Thank you brother for your perseverance. God is good.

S
savannah

I thought some here on SI may be interested in this conference on October 25-27,2012 being held at the Ridgecrest Conference Center which is 17 miles east of Asheville, North Carolina.

White Unto Harvest 2012 - A Great Commission Mega-Conference.
http://www.ncfic.org/harvest-about

We will seek, by the grace of God, to unpack the Great Commission, as it applies to the individual, the home, and the church.

Among the speakers will be:

Paul Washer - Director and one of the laborers with the HeartCry Missionary Society

Doug Phillips - Founder and director of Vision Forum. As a constitutional attorney, Doug served six years at Home School Legal Defense Association and as Director for the National Center for Home Education.

Scott T. Brown - director of the National Center for Family Integrated Churches and elder at Hope Baptist Church in Wake Forest, North Carolina.

Kevin Swanson - Director of Generations with Vision – a ministry he founded to strengthen homeschool families around the country. An elder at Reformation Church in Castle Rock, Colorado . For the last four years, Kevin has hosted Generations Radio, the world's largest homeschooling and biblical worldview radio program, broadcasting daily to families across the US and in more than 80 countries.

Jesse Saint - The son of missionary Stephen Saint and grandson of missionary Nate Saint who was martyred by the Waodani Indians in Ecuador in 1956.

Conrad Mbewe - Pastor at Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia for the last 25 years.

R
rainydaygirl

Proudpapa

I wanted to tell you I am sorry. hope I did not cause you any ill feelings.

rdg

G
ginnyrose

____________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"i really do think posting in forums is a mine field perhaps i would be best to just stay clear."
____________________________________________________________


Just a minute, rdg. I would not throw the baby out with the bath just because you screwed up. Life is a series of learning and as long as your mind functions well it will continue until death overtakes you. I am 65 YO and still learning and experiencing exasperation with myself for some stupid thing I did but one does not quit. Never. Learn from mistakes and then get up and go on. This is life. If life is to be enjoyed one must embrace this aspect of it. To hide, run away from possible failure means life will pass you by and then what did you learn? Nothing. This is not the way faith operates in the life of an individual.

RDG, I suggest you accept the forgiveness God offers and then forgive yourself and go on. There is a richness to be learned from this process. God bless.

ginnyrose

J
jochbaptist

quote: No KK just AK. You understand.

No, I dont understand what you are saying brother.
What I meant was that comments like this by KK-

-----------------------------------------------------------
quote:
I also agree that this article is all over the place and hard to read.
This is because Mr. Pearl fancies himself to be an author, and he is truly not.
But he keeps writing books anyway, and thats ok. This is America.
Krispy
-----------------------------------------------------------

And your (AK's = amrkelly) academic and longwinded (it would be very interesting to make a word-count on your contribution to this specific thread) opinions on all you managed to extrapolate from the article, makes me sympathize with the OP, as I too have felt the brunt of reactions to something shared in a desire to participate and offer something that has been of personal value.

Comments like “I can't believe you said that...” and "You are talking tripe sir!" are comments I personally received on something I shared from my heart. Sharing leaves one vulnerable, and whoever responds to that should keep this in mind.

Blessings

Joch
(edited for clarity)

S
sermonindex

quote: No[t] KK just AK. You understand.

No, I dont understand what you are saying brother.
What I meant was that comments like this by KK-

-----------------------------------------------------------
quote:
I also agree that this article is all over the place and hard to read.
This is because Mr. Pearl fancies himself to be an author, and he is truly not.
But he keeps writing books anyway, and thats ok. This is America.
Krispy
-----------------------------------------------------------

And your (AK's = amrkelly) academic and longwinded (it would be very interesting to make a word-count on your contribution to this specific thread) opinions on all you managed to extrapolate from the article, makes me sympathize with the OP, as I too have felt the brunt of reactions to something shared in a desire to participate and offer something that has been of personal value. jochbaptist.


The length of my contributions are visible. Thanks for the AK KK explanation. I understand your point about proudpapa's feelings. We all have them I think. Academic and long winded? It is a writing style and nothing more. Whether it is as academic as some seem to think it is! I doubt that very much. My own reference to the academic integrity of the article doesn't make my own contributions any more academic. It was a singular point not an objective. Thanks for the observations. I will try to bear them in mind.

R
rainydaygirl

by ginnyrose on 2012/10/8 23:33:40

____________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"i really do think posting in forums is a mine field perhaps i would be best to just stay clear."
____________________________________________________________


Just a minute, rdg. I would not throw the baby out with the bath just because you screwed up. Life is a series of learning and as long as your mind functions well it will continue until death overtakes you. I am 65 YO and still learning and experiencing exasperation with myself for some stupid thing I did but one does not quit. Never. Learn from mistakes and then get up and go on. This is life. If life is to be enjoyed one must embrace this aspect of it. To hide, run away from possible failure means life will pass you by and then what did you learn? Nothing. This is not the way faith operates in the life of an individual.

RDG, I suggest you accept the forgiveness God offers and then forgive yourself and go on. There is a richness to be learned from this process. God bless.

ginnyrose

----

you misunderstand my meaning in what i wrote. i do not feel as if i blew it because i did not like the article. i still have an opinion on it but i realize that i don't "have" to share it. Proudpapa really liked the article and it meant something to him, i didn't need to rain on that by pushing my opinion. this topic is not a salvation deal so i could have kept silent on the matter and just kept my thoughts to myself. that is where the mine field comes into play for me, knowing when to just keep opinions to myself for the sake of another feelings and when to share. its not about running away at all, its about using discernment to know when to post. i still have my opinions about this thread but my sharing them will do nothing to further Jesus Kingdom so better to just keep silent.

i still do truly hope proudpapa feelings are not hurt. as for accepting Gods forgiveness i do. its not about that for me, its about learning when to give an opinion and when to keep silent. i am learning that i can disagree with another, not like what they share from a preference point of view and still not say anything on the matter.

thanks
rdg

P
proudpapa

the first time I heard of the Pearls was when I came across there child training book "To train up a Child" It is there most famous book and one that recentaly has brought them under much fire by the entertainment media because of their stance on biblical chastisement

The Pearls where the first ones that I had heard teach courtship rather than dating,wish I had been 14 years old rather than 28 when I first heard of this.

The Pearls where the first ones I heard teach sanctification by faith rather than overcoming sin by self effort

The Pearls where the first ones That I heard make practical,the way in which you go about getting your wife to submit and follow your lead, PS it was not by shoving the scriptures that tell a woman to submitt to her husband down her throat.

I want to show the impression that I as a casual reader familer with the teachings of the Pearls would recieve from this article.

The title cloistered homeschool syndrome,I know is not an attack on homeschooling nor on involved parenting I know the pearl to be very strong advocates of Homeschooling and very strong advocates of involved parenting they teach not to leave your children alone with anyone they teach not to even have doors on your childrens bedrooms. They teach to be more involved in your childrens lives than any one else that I new of before becoming familer with there material a quote from p.63 of there book //If you have
duties outside
the home that prevent you from properly rearing your children,give your duties back to the Devil.//

I can see that people without having a background understanding of whom is writing this could automaticaly be on the defensive just from the title but the original artical was in there magazine that is read by people familer to their teachings.

The artical starts out by telling of a missionary family a homeschool no doubt missionary family the Foger family. They are presented as one example of a well trained homeschooled family that succedded in there childrens upbringing a prototype for us whom have young children to observe some characteristics that differed from some of the characteristics of familys that failed.

Where the forgers strict by todays standards?
absoulutly,so are the Pearls,They were involved in every aspect of there childrens lives they did not let there children Date or go hang out.they would themselves be labled by many as cloistered homeschool syndrome but there is a difference in the Pearls and what they lable as C.H.S. it is the Pearls are for training and teaching there children to become independant adults that is independant from needing mom and dad but of course still
dependant on God.

Anyone who knows anything of the Pearls,no clearly that they are not advocating leting your children raise themselves or advocating not being very involved in your children choice of whom they Marry. The Pearls teach very much in courtship and the parents being very involved in the courtship.

The artical than goes on to speak of the cloistered homeschool syndrome what it is and
the results that it causes. I personly know that this is no exageration,I know of personal accounts with the exact results as they describe. and I believe I know of personal situations that the Pearls articals on these issues have helped.

I might continue more later.

PS One last thing I am not angry with anyone on these threads no ill feelings

R
rainydaygirl

proudpapa

i am glad there is no ill feelings.

rdg

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