Can we obey God or not??????????

How much more shall we live a holy life in the New Covenant, given everything we need to live a godly life!2 Peter 1:3 - "His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness."

Thanks for the thoughts freecd. I would like to answer some of your questions. The first one you ask is "Please tell me how these people obeyed?"The premise this question is based on is flawed, that is, it cannot be answered in the form that it has been asked without accepting the premise upon which it is based. In this case, the premise is that some people in the bible 'sinlessly' obeyed God.. which is an incorrect premise.So in order to answer your question properly, I must first demosntrate scripturally that the premise is a misunderstanding...Consider the words of King Solomon, "When they sin against You (for there is no one who does not sin),..." - 1 Kings 8:46aPerhaps the wisest men who ever lived, plainly stated that there is no one who does not sin.This is echoed throughout scripture:- Psalm 130:3 "If You, LORD, should mark iniquities,O Lord, who could stand?"- Psalm 143:2 "And do not enter into judgment with Your servant,For in Your sight no man living is righteous."- Proverbs 20:9 "Who can say, "I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin?"- Ecclesiastes 7:20 "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."- Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"- 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."If the passages you quoted were teaching what you assume them to be teaching - all these passages I noted would be blatantly contrary.If on the otherhand, the passages you mentioned are not teaching a "sinless perfection" - but rather a blamelessness such as that taught regarding David in 2 Samuel 12:13, "So David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the LORD.' And Nathan said to David, 'The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.'"In this verse we see that David repented, and God responded to that repentance by putting away David's sin - that is, David was not sinless - but God treated him as such.That means that it has always been possible for a person to be right in God's eyes without being perfectly sinless. Remember that God "... knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust." - Psalm 103:14Getting back to your question then, the answer is - those people did not obey in the sense you are imagining. They obeyed in the sense that they continued to turn to God for forgiveness when they sinned. They obeyed in the sense that they sought God's will, as opposed to their own. Not perfectly - but consistently.Likewise your second question, "Did Adam or his descendants lose the ability to obey God after Adam's sin?" becomes moot. They didn't lose something because the something you imagine has been lost is entirely fanciful - having never been a reality ever.I hope that helps.Dan

By grace through faith the OT Saints were justified, sanctified, and glorified.In ChristJeff

James 2:26 For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead.Ya know, do a search for the word 'obedient' or 'obedience' in the New Testament on any online Bible site. I come up with appx. 40 entries. Pray and SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES! :) I'll tell ya what though, you will hear alot of talk about faith, grace, and mercy today, but most of the fruit of that movement is disobedience and rebellion, no need for the scriptures, and rampant sinful living right within the lives of these people who have "slipped in among us." I say this because I LIVED IT at one time before I got the Holy Ghost for real. Jude calls these men who use grace as a license for immorality GODLESS. JUDE 4 SAYS: "For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord."JUDE is a powerhouse of information and knowledge about the days we live in. Crave the meat, not just the milk.

Freecd: After re-reading your first post carefully, I come away with the impression (based primarily on your opening remark) that you are saying that the descendants of Adam either do not inherit the curse of Adam, or alternately, that the curse of Adam in no way affects them with regards to sin.Likewise, you also seem to be saying that the carnal mind is --not-- emnity against God and that it actually --can-- be subject to God's law.I don't want to put opinions in your mouth. Is this not what you are saying?Dan

I disagree. At any given point in time we either are in obedience to God or we are not. No other choice is possible. It would be impossible to partly obey and partly disobey at the same time. Howdy do Ok here is the thing it is possible in the past.To Obey and still have the Flesh disobey.I.E. Paul says in Romans..7ish, that with his mind he wants to obey God however his sinful body does not obey. He goes on to say something like.... So now who will save me from this sinful flesh, Thanks be to Jesus for he will save me.... Then he says something like, The Holy Spirit now makes it possible to Obey GOD.See GOD stopped dealing with the Flesh on Calvary,U gots to Remember the Words Our Master Spoke."It is Finished"The Old Covenant is finished.Dat means that in the past God !!dealt!! with man in the Flesh, and in doing so put up with allot of !ignorance! and his wrath had to be satisfied.........See Noah, See Sodom and Gomorrah, See Egypt, See the 400 priest of Balam,See Cain.Add to your thought also that Old Test Good Guys Were being Judged by the Law, and before Moses the Law of Consience... Also add a dash of Cain and Able... They were Sacrificing even back then.Dats 2nd Generation Human and they new they had to Sacrifice.However Now we got a New Rule and that Rule is that JESUS Paid the Price for Our sins.So now GOD Deals with us in a different way, Yeah that’s right a Different Way.Now He Abides IN US, we do not have to Look at a Temple of God, or make Sacrifices for Sin.Ok to sum up.. Old Testament "Obey" is Flesh Striving to be good, and failing. So I want to do Good but I can't... and GOD Understood that. Connection was Long Distance.New Testament "Obey" is JESUS Living IN YOU and me and the Flesh(Law) is not in the Equation any more. Connection is Spiritual that's closer than Face 2 Face man... WoW!!! I just thought about that... Hope that helps Bro

Dan,A minor point, but I thought it would be a good idea to tell you about it so you can deal with it. You say;the passages you mentioned are not teaching a "sinless perfection" - but rather a blamelessness such as that taught regarding David in 2 Samuel 12:13, "So David said to Nathan, 'I have sinned against the LORD.' And Nathan said to David, 'The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.'"Getting back to your question then, the answer is - those people did not obey in the sense you are imagining. They obeyed in the sense that they continued to turn to God for forgiveness when they sinned.This does not seem to square with one of the quotes originally used by freecd, namely Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite

Thanks sfwc - I noted it.I read freecd's first post rather quickly (to my shame), and didn't fully take in what he was getting at.Upon re-reading his post, I think he is opposed to total depravity - which makes my response a little ...off :)Thanks for the thoughts though.

Howdy do Ok here is the thing it is possible in the past.To Obey and still have the Flesh disobey.I.E. Paul says in Romans..7ish, that with his mind he wants to obey God however his sinful body does not obey. He goes on to say something like.... So now who will save me from this sinful flesh, Thanks be to Jesus for he will save me.... Then he says something like, The Holy Spirit now makes it possible to Obey GOD.See GOD stopped dealing with the Flesh on Calvary,U gots to Remember the Words Our Master Spoke."It is Finished"The Old Covenant is finished.Dat means that in the past God !!dealt!! with man in the Flesh, and in doing so put up with allot of !ignorance! and his wrath had to be satisfied.........See Noah, See Sodom and Gomorrah, See Egypt, See the 400 priest of Balam,See Cain.Add to your thought also that Old Test Good Guys Were being Judged by the Law, and before Moses the Law of Consience... Also add a dash of Cain and Able... They were Sacrificing even back then.Dats 2nd Generation Human and they new they had to Sacrifice.However Now we got a New Rule and that Rule is that JESUS Paid the Price for Our sins.So now GOD Deals with us in a different way, Yeah that’s right a Different Way.Now He Abides IN US, we do not have to Look at a Temple of God, or make Sacrifices for Sin.Ok to sum up.. Old Testament "Obey" is Flesh Striving to be good, and failing. So I want to do Good but I can't... and GOD Understood that. Connection was Long Distance.New Testament "Obey" is JESUS Living IN YOU and me and the Flesh(Law) is not in the Equation any more. Connection is Spiritual that's closer than Face 2 Face man... WoW!!! I just thought about that... Hope that helps BroGood Point AoW

freecd wrote:Just because we have all sinned does not mean that we CAN NOT obey. We always have a choice to make. How can we be truly guilty without actually choosing to disobey?Welcome to the inside of my head :cry:. The questions you are raising, are really the only questions that should be asked, as everything else comes back to these questions. Guilt is impossible without choice. Otherwise the guilt would be on the one one made the choice for us, and we would be inocent.For me, the answer to this issue begins with the statement, "99% truth = 100% lie". Each of Satan's lies, recorded in scrpiture, were made up of truthful statments. However, the arrangement of the order these statments, made them a lie.Finney defined a lie by saying:Any species of designed deception for a selfish reason is lying. If the deception is not a design it is not lying. But if you design to make an impression contrary to the naked truth, you lie.In the same way 99% obedience = 100% disobedience. Just because you got away with it, or were excused for the action, doesn't mean innocence. Likewise a life spent 99% obeying God, is a life 100% disobedient to God. A simple perusal of 1 Cor 13:1-3 and Matt 7:21-23 shows that a life spent doing the "things that please God" without the proper motivation, "profits nothing", and result in us being nothing but "sounding brass", "tinkling cymbals", and in effect "nothing" period, in the sight of God, whose top priority is the we know Him, as He is, and are known by Him.The problem is self. Self aweness, self importance, self involvement, self rule, etc. This is where the fall fits in. The issue of the fall is one of selfishness and the intial presentation of it by Satan. Where we begin to understand choice: That choice has to involve the ability to choose evil and something else. The two trees were "Life" (truth, obedience) and "Knowledge of Good and Evil" (death, lie, selfishness). To choose evil, results in our choices being between two evils, one overtly evil, and another which seems good. The only way to bring good back into the equation, is to return to the first choice we blew, and rectify it. That choice, is always the choice of selfishness.That is why in ourselves, we can do no good thing. The only "good thing" we can actually do, in "call on His name", to submit our selfishness to Him. This was first done, by Enosh (Gen 4:26) only two generations from Adam. This is also the way the OT and the NT saints fused together. This submission of self, always involves a sacrifice, of one to bear the guilt of the other. In the Kingdom of God, there is zero tolerance for disention, and someone has to bear the deserved death.OT saints ignorantly sacrificed animals, according to Devine perscription, as a recognition of God's deliverance, in Jesus. NT saints (us included) lean on the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus. But in both cases, the sacrifice is worthless, without a "calling upon His name". Neither is the calling of any value, without the recognition of the sacrifice being for us (ie, recognising our guilt).Now we begin to realise, that obedience is about doing what God requires, and in the event of choosing our will over His, righting the wrong done by the only means perscribed. Calling on His Name, and trusting in His atoning sacrice. When we come to God on these terms, we realise that in us there is "no good thing" and not only that, there never will be. The moment we consider ourselves to be "good", we begin to idolise ourselves, and have no need to depend on God.This is what separates the true saint (one who is), from the "phraseological" saint (one who pretends). The first comprehends the fact that God is the only one with the ability to live a obedient life through us (Gal 2:20), because impossible for any of his choices to be obedient ones without dependance on Him. The second either thinks that he can do things to serve God (in spite on Acts 17:25), or that it doesn't matter what he does, because God forgives Him.The only true obedience is wholehearted dependance on God, and 99% "wholehearted obedient" is 100% self dependancy. So in answer to the question, "Can we obey God or not?", no we can't. However, God can make anyone obedient who is wholey dependant on Him.For futher exploration on this subjest, check out Righteous Submission vs Zealous Obedience to Principle.For anyone who wants a scriptural refernce for this statement, Gen 1:1-Rev 22:21 :-P.

Guilt is impossible without choice.I believe this is true. For decades I have wanted to register as a member of the British Evangelical Alliance, but my belief in this excludes me. The Intervarsities Christian Fellowships in the UK also exclude those who, consciously, believe this.A few months ago I was scheduled to speak at two meetings at Reading University. Two days before the first I had an email saying that I would have to sign their doctrinal statement. Theirs and the evangelical alliance's statement both include the notion that I acquired 'quilt' through Adam's sin. I do not believe this and could not sign; they cancelled my speaking appointments. Over the years my conviction that we do not acquire 'guilt' from Adam's sin has been costly to me.So much for my credentials. I do NOT believe that the human race has acquired 'guilt' as a result of Adam's sin. I hope I make my position clear. :-D Greg has some of my messages on this site. If you listen to Justification you will hear my reasons for rejecting the notion that guilt is imputed to the race as a result of sin. Guilt is a technical and legal word. It has nothing to do with the way I feel or the way I perceive my own sin. It has to do with 'blame-worthiness'. A man will only be held to account for that for which he is 'blame-worthy'; gulty. This is forensic language and consistent in its use in the scriptures. The man against whom an accusation could not be proved was declared 'justified'. The man against whom an accusation was proven was then sentenced and the sentence carried out. Listen to "Justification" and see if you agree with me.But Adam's sin opened the door for SIN to enter our race. This has nothing at all to do with 'guilt'. We are not acounted 'guilty' in scriptures for Adam's sin, but as a result of Adam's sin "SIN" entered. It was not 'created' by Adam's sin, it gained 'access' through Adam's sin. These distinctions are vital to this discussion. Please note again how carefully God gives us this revelation.Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Rom 5:12 KJV)'entered' is eiserchomai. erchomai is 'to come', eis is 'into; We are being told that'by one man Sin (and it has a definite article) entered into the (world) cosmos. Please think through what we are being told here. Adam did not 'create' sin, the Bible says he opened a door for it. Look at the room in which you are sitting. You entered into that room through a door. You did not create yourself when you entered. You pre-existed before you entered. Sin pre-dates the human race. One of the pedantic reasons I don't like the phrase 'original sin' is because Adam's sin was not the 'original sin'. Sin is older than Adam.Rom 5:12 says 'Death passed upon all men'. This does not do justice to the verb or the preposition. The verb is 'dierchomai'; that's 'erchomai' again but this time with the preposition 'dia' meaning 'through'. Death 'transversed' to all men. This is one of the reasons I don't like the phrase 'Hereditary Sin'; the emphasis is not passing 'down' but 'through'. In a moment of time, the Aorist tense is used throughout, 'sin entered the cosmos' and 'death transversed the human race'. Adam was the human race.I do not believe that God holds me 'guilty' for Adam's sin, but Adam's sin allowed SIN to pass into the human race. I am not 'guilty' of Adam's infringement but I have suffered the consequences of Adam opening the door to sin. In my human-ness I was 'begotten in his own likeness' Gen 5:3. This is why forgiveness, although a great joy, does not change me. I still have the same Adamic-spirit; his spiritual 'genes' if you like. This is why I need and why God provides 're-gene-ration.

Now we begin to realise, that obedience is about doing what God requires, and in the event of choosing our will over His, righting the wrong done by the only means perscribed. Calling on His Name, and trusting in His atoning sacrice. When we come to God on these terms, we realise that in us there is "no good thing" and not only that, there never will be. Aaron, your entire post was so good. I am living this. This is what has changed my Christian walk from one of frustration to one of victory. I struggle to put it into words, but you did a great job. I always come to God now, knowing that apart from him I can do nothing, but in him I can do it all. There's never anything in me that takes credit for any "success", because I know it wasn't me who succeeded. It was God. I feel completely able to live the Christian life now, because I know that I cannot do it. Does that make sense? I feel so, so, so freeeeee. That may not sound very edgecated, but it's for real. Love, Dian.

Aaron,Have you been studying or what? :-) Only a quick meddling, two that came to mind:The Spirit of Truth - Art Katz & Paul VolkMight be worth dredging up again...The other, snatched from the diary of OC and a letter to a friend of his and his wife;What we are is of much more use to God and our fellows than what we do. ‘Consider the lilies’ said Jesus our Lord. That is, do not get the ‘actuality’ fever; I mean this satanic idea of doing something. Be something ever as you are. I send you again John 14!Oswald ChambersAbandoned to God. I lied, one more...I feel completely able to live the Christian life now, because I know that I cannot do it. Does that make sense? Perfect sense!

Spitfire wrote:I feel completely able to live the Christian life now, because I know that I cannot do it. Does that make sense?Crystal clear Dian, crystal clear.:-)FreeCD wrote:For the Christian, obeying God and keeping His commandments are a natural part of his new life. Only the sinner finds it hard to walk in God's ways because he is trying to use the law as a means to his own end. the ultimate satisfaction of his own selfishness. He must fall.Ahh...Youth Aflame, I wouldn't be here now without that book :cry:. That's the crux of the problem, even considering the fact the we can have our own ends, that's the tragedy. Ever noticed that the closer you get to Jesus, the further from God you feel?crssck wrote:Only a quick meddling, two that came to mind:The Spirit of Truth - Art Katz & Paul VolkMight be worth dredging up again...I don't think think I'll ever been the same as I was before readin this book. :-? That and Apostolic Foundations. What can I say? anyone for an upheaval?

This ought to be the post to direct to, in our understanding of just what sin is and how it applies to us.I am just soaking this all in. Ron, and this article brought out from Freecd...This came to mind as well;Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. So much to draw from here...How about pulling this into the equation;(Actually two...)Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. The first it seems to be dawning on me now is in 'status' as to how things 'are'...Does that make sense?Perhaps someone can flesh that out...

crsschk wrote:How about pulling this into the equation;(Actually two...)Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. The first it seems to be dawning on me now is in 'status' as to how things 'are'...Does that make sense?Perhaps someone can flesh that out...In "Youth Aflame", Pratney mentions that Ps 51:5, could be refering to David's illegitamate birth (as some have speculated). Not sure about Ps 58:3, and not sure if I agree with Pratney either:-).

Oh you have to be quick sometimes but the old "Random Article" just threw out;"And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people...and I am come down to deliver them..."(Exod. 3:7-8). We all have some weak point in our character. When we would go forward, it drags us back, and when we would rise up into higher spheres of usefulness and the atmosphere of heaven, something drags us down. Now I have no sympathy with the idea that God puts us behind the blood and saves us, and then leaves us in Egypt to be under the old taskmaster. I believe God brings us out of Egypt into the promised land, and that it is the privilege of every child of God to be delivered from every foe, from every besetting sin. If there is some sin that is getting the mastery over you, you certainly cannot be useful. You certainly cannot bring forth fruit to the honor and glory of God until you get self-control. "He that ruleth his spirit is better than he that taketh a city." If we haven't got victory over jealousy and worldly amusements and worldly pleasure, if we are not delivered from all these things, we are not going to have power with God or with men, and we are not going to be as useful as we might be if we got deliverance from every evil. There isn't an evil within or without but what He will deliver us from if we will let Him. That is what He wants to do. As God said to Moses, "I have come down to deliver." If He could deliver three million slaves from the hands of the mightiest monarch on earth, don't you think He can deliver us from every besetting sin, and give us complete victory over ourselves, over our temper, over our dispositions, over our irritableness and peevishness and snappishness? If we want it and desire it above everything else, we can get victory. Delivered From Sin D.L. Moody

Yes, we can obey God fully and it's not about us at all. It's about fully submitting every area of our life to the Lord Jesus. It's about the power of the blood of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit to create a heart. A heart that walks clean before Him through His power and blood. It's not about me at all, it's all about Jesus.

Hi CJaKFOrEsT,In "Youth Aflame", Pratney mentions that Ps 51:5, could be refering to David's illegitamate birth (as some have speculated).I would say that the context of Ps.51 excludes this possibility since David is dealing with his own sin and sinful condition.

Pratney mentions that Ps 51:5, could be refering to David's illegitamate birth (as some have speculated).and that's exactly what it is, speculation with not an ounce of evidence. Hulsey's comment below is on target too I think. Ps 51 is the classic I-thee conversation. No one else exists in the whole world except David and the One he has offended. "Against thee only, have I sinned..." This is biblical repentance.

Ps 51 is the classic I-thee conversation. No one else exists in the whole world except David and the One he has offended. "Against thee only, have I sinned..." This is biblical repentance.Moreover, I would only add that in my view "Against thee, only have I sinned..." speaks to the realization David came to in understanding the essense of all sin. You can miss what I'm about to say so listen carefully. Paul said that when the commandment came sin revived and he died. He also discussed in another place how that the carnal mind cannot be made subject to the laws of God. Why? Because the law excites in man "the sin" that is in him which is a nature desirous of being fulfilled by sinning against God. As new born believers our "meat" is to do the will of the heavenly Father. For the unregenerate, their 'meat' is to rebel against God. That is what "hits the spot" for the sinner. Sin gratifies them. I often make this illustration to show my point. Whan a kid sneaks behind the school to puff on a cigarette when no one is looking (even his friends) he is not being gratified by the sensation of his lungs being scalded by the smoke or the excessive coughing and gagging it causes. He is being gratified by the rebellion. He is gratified by the feeling that what he or she is doing is wrong. That 'feeling' or 'rush' is at the root of much non chemical addiction. It seems that when people do something against their conscience that a certain 'feeling' is set off that the person becomes addicted to. They become addicted to "rebellion against God" itself. Anything that can satisfy the feeling a sinner gets when they rebel against their conscience will feed this appetite. People actually start "jonesing" for sin. The means of their rebellion can vary all over the place. Yet at the end of the day no matter what flavor of sin you prefer; it is ALL that sensation of rebellion against God that you are after. David could have had any beautiful single woman in Israel. Beauty was not the issue. There was something that added an exponential desire to his heart when he heard she was married. It happens for all of us. How shall we respond when we hear something is out of bounds? Shall we turn aside in obedience or shall we lust to transgress against God? What was it? It was the temptation to gratify that lust for sin that was the core of his transgression. The sin was against GOD. God was not just a casuality in this scenerio- Uriah was. God Bless,-Robert

Hi Free,It is the wicked who 'go ASTRAY", if the text is to be literally interpreted, it means that infants TALK as well as lie from birth! Nothing here about inherited sinfulness.Yes precisely. That was what I wanted to draw into the mix here as primarily the thought behind Psalm 51;Many people think that we are born in sin because David said in Psalm 51:5 "I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."Being that this is often used as that reference point of being 'born a sinner' if you will and to circle back around again, then how are you to be blamed? That this is still mis-believed by so many as Ron put it "original sin" or "hereditary sin" I think it was...You and I were born into the atmosphere as it were. If I can push this to it's logical conclusion and borrow a bit from a message that I listened to last week... A Grain of WheatIF and a big "IF" at that, we were somehow able to be born and walk through this earth without sin, we would never die. Sure it's obvious, but to tie it in with the message I heard, the way he put it I found quite profound. If Jesus had never gone to the cross He would still be walking this earth a 2,000+ year old man."for I do always those things that please Him"" You would have to listen to the message to get the fullness out of it all.So if anything was just trying to concur with what had already been stated here and how this verse in particular has been misused. It certainly had me perplexed for a long time trying to understand how one could hold to that and then go forward from that stand point. (The message above is from Major Ian Thomas, here's another bit on him Ian Thomas - "Not IT but HIM" )

Feecd said Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."This verse is figurative because no baby is born talking and therefore cannot speak lies at birth. If a baby is really guilty of sin then it must repent which is impossible.Ok when I read this, It got me thinkin...Maybe U guys can help me understand something. QESTION!! Is it possible to sin before you where born?My attempt to answer it is......Yes. Cuz. GOD said I knew you before you where born.So Literal verbal communication does not mean that you can't sin. It is a spiritual thing.Without understanding that it is a spiritual thing you will not be able to accuse mankind of sin.If GOD lets a Baby die and He had no chance to be forgiven Cuz he could not yet understand the Gospel that would be wrong. cuz we all know he Needs to accept Jesus. However, GOD in his Greatness knows the Heart of Man and whether or not he will Accept the Call. So do all babies go to Heaven?I got no Idea, But I know that GOD Is The Mostest Honestest Goodest Judge PERIOD

Hi FreeCd,Your are coming across as if those here do not believe that Christ requires obedience. It is not the end (obedience) that we disagree over, it is the means with which that obedience comes about. Christ requires obedience, but this cannot be made to mean that men take His commands and muster all their might to obey. The obedience required by our Lord is that we walk in the Spirit and fulfill the righteous requirements of the law. This is a million miles from 'trying' to be obedient. We cannot do in the arm of the flesh what can only be done by Walking in the Spirit, full of the Holy Ghost. I will attach lesson VI of The Despensation of the Gospel for you to look over. God Bless,-Robert

LESSON VILED OF THE HOLY SPIRITRobert Wurtz IITEXT. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (Galatians 5)The Old Covenant was given to Israel because of the transgressions that they were committing against their own conscience. (Galatians 3:19) Every human being is born with a basic set of laws written upon their hearts with which to judge basic right and wrong. (Romans 2:15) When men refused to walk in this ‘law’ God gave them the Old Covenant and established penalties for breaking those laws. Not the entire Old Covenant dealt was teaching right and wrong; a good portion of it was laws concerning the handling of the sacrificial system. Yet, to anyone who has ever read through the Old Covenant laws they realize that no one has walked perfectly in those laws. Those laws are Spiritual and good; but we are carnal and sold under sin. (Romans 7:14) For a sinful man the law does little more than give the flesh something to rebel against. The commandment came and sin ‘revived’ within the heart of man. (Romans 7:9) In this lesson I propose to show:I. If you are led of the Spirit you are not under the LawII. If you are led of the Spirit you will fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law.A. Paul asks the question; He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith. (Galatians 3:5) No one is going to see God working by trying to impose ‘law’ on folks. This is a blatant misunderstanding of the Gospel. When law comes in other than for the purpose of showing man the exceeding greatness of his sin- God resists the ministry. God will not bless legalism. The flesh produces legalism. The flesh can be defined as human nature apart from the direction and power of God. If the Holy Spirit is not back of the actions it is ‘flesh’ at best. The flesh will bring man into a state of ‘rule keeping’ that will cause him to glory for all he does that is ‘righteous.’ This gives the glory to man instead of God. When walking in the Spirit we understand that it is impossible for us in ourselves to ever live acceptably with God- as we have already found ourselves condemned and deserving of destruction. We know that unless the Holy Spirit fills us by God’s free grace we had been nothing more than wretched. B. Jonathan Edwards writes; “If ever you truly come to Christ, you must come to him to make you better. You must come as a patient comes to his physician, with his diseases or wounds to be cured. Spread all your wickedness before him, and do not plead your goodness; but plead your badness, and your necessity on that account: and say, as the psalmist in the text (Psalm 25:11), not Pardon mine iniquity, for it is not so great as it was, but, " Pardon mine iniquity, for it is Great." This is a conscious understanding that there is nothing in us that makes us worthy of God’s grace. It is an understanding that trying to clean ourselves up before coming to God in repentance only seeks to steal the glory from God for having accepted us as vile sinners- supposing that the person who came was better than before they were ‘cleaned up.’ In fact, before God we are no more or less holy in ourselves before we cleaned up than after. We still need the same measure of mercy. C. Walking in the Spirit is as far from legalism as the east is from the west. One seeks to please God by appearing to be clean and worthy; the other casts itself upon the mercy of God in agreement with what God has already said about our condition. Sometimes it takes weeks or months or even years before a person will finally realize that they need more than God to forgive them for a few messes they made. Sometimes a person will simply come to the realization that they are utterly helpless before God and will thrust themselves upon the greatness of His mercy. At once when this realization comes it may shock the person into a sober reality. And for the first time they will truly trust Christ for all of their salvation and not just ‘take up the slack’ or forgive the ‘loose ends.’ D. When Jesus came he began teaching things that should have made those who heard it shutter in fear. Here He came tightening down the metaphorical screws of the Law of Moses until there was none to escape. By the time he was finished saying, “You have heard it said, but I say unto you” there was none in the multitudes who could claim their innocence before God. All were condemned. For He showed them a picture of a live lived in the power of the Holy Ghost- and there was none that had walked in it- no not one. And in that state of helplessness there was nothing to do but fall upon the Rock Christ Jesus before He fell on them. Some still held out as they do today. “Oh, I can live it”- not knowing that it’s the Spirit filled walk that He is teaching. And the only way to be born of the Spirit is to first say; God there is no way I can ever live this life myself. As the Psalmist they will exclaim, “For thy name's sale, O Lord, pardon my iniquity; for it is great.” (Psalm 25:11) II. If you are led of the Spirit you will fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law. A. There are few things more troubling than a conscience that is overcome with guilt. Yet, God wants His children to walk before Him with a clear conscience- free from conscious sin. This sounds radical and impossible to those who have been browbeaten by the flesh, the world, and the Devil. The mere mention of it only adds to the accusations of the accuser. Yet again as Edwards writes: “You need not be at all the more fearful of coming because of your sins, let them be ever so black. If you had as much guilt lying on each of your souls as all the wicked men in the world, and all the damned souls in hell; yet if you come to God for mercy, sensible of your own vileness, and seeking pardon only through the free mercy of God in Christ, you would not need to be afraid; the greatness of your sins would be no impediment to your pardon. Therefore, if your souls be burdened, and you are distressed for fear of hell, you need not bear that burden and distress any longer. If you are but willing, you may freely come and unload yourselves, and cast all your burdens on Christ, and rest in him.”B. Perhaps you have never known victory in your life because you never came to the place where you realized it could not be done in the flesh? Maybe you see the Gospels as a set of rules that all Christians are to set out to obey with all their might! Yet, the Gospels are not an addendum to the 613 Laws of the Old Testament, they are the outward working of people who have so trusted Christ for salvation that He has filled them with His Spirit by grace and they walk in that way full of faith, hope, and joy. Most of all they are driven by the love of the Spirit that fills a persons very being who have come to the Lord so broken. The enemy so hates this estate because of the utter peace with God that such a sinner saved by grace enjoys. He seeks to accuse them, but now there is no condemnation to them. None whatsoever. They have been justified freely by His grace and walk in the Spirit free from the condemnation of the Law. C. When you realize that the enormity of your sin has been greater than you could have possibly imagined you would know of assurity that there is none but grace to save. When you fall from the weakness of the flesh into the steadfastness of the grace wherein we stand you will rejoice in hope of the Glory of God. The enemy is in a rage at such a notion. For he has spent his numbered days pointing out all the sins of man bringing vex upon the soul and anguish of mind upon the multitudes. Having accused the Saints day and night… God answers; “There is now no condemnation…” D. How much condemnation is NO condemnation? Is it a little bit? Is it a measurable amount? Is it enough to loose sleep over? Is it enough to make us feel timid in the presence of God? Just how much condemnation is NO condemnation? What other rule have we, by which to judge of such matters than God’s revealed word? When we pretend to go further in our determinations than the word of God, Satan takes us up, and leads us into despair. Soon we mistake his accusations for Holy Ghost conviction and the result is ‘feelings’ of condemnation. What are ‘feelings’ in light of God’s revealed word? What reason can you give for them, if you have no word of God to base them on? Is it because you cannot see how the mercy of God is sufficient to pardon, or the blood of Christ to cleanse from ALL sin? If so, it is because you never yet saw how great the mercy of God is; you never saw the sufficiency of the blood of Christ, and you know not how far the virtue of it extends.E. You will ask; what about holiness? God will bless holiness, but holiness is simply this: people walking in the Spirit. That is it- nothing more and nothing less. It is people full of the Holy Ghost living out their life as the Holy Ghost directs them and under no condemnation. When the Holy Ghost prompts you to do something- you do it. When He 'checks' you NOT to do something- you don't do it. When HE puts His finger on something deal with it. The Spirit and the word always agree. How can a person walk in Christian perfection? There is no other way than to walk in the Spirit. REMARKSCan legalism save anyone? Only a life walking in the power of the Holy Spirit will suffice. George Whitefield writes: “I would humbly hope that you are sincerely persuaded, that he who hath not the Spirit of Christ is none of his; and that, unless the Spirit, which raised Jesus from the dead, dwell in you here, neither will your mortal bodies be quickened by the same Spirit to dwell with him hereafter.”Walking in the Spirit is a life lived in the power of the Holy Ghost. This power comes as we are daily filled with His Spirit and empowered to mortify the deeds of the flesh. This is a far cry from legalism. This is the Spirit filled life that fulfills the righteous requirements of the Law and emulates the person of Jesus Christ as laid out in the four Gospels. This is the essence of the Good News of man’s salvation; that God the Holy Spirit would come into a cleansed Temple that had been set free from sin through the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross and empowered to walk in His resurrection power.Holiness movements are always in danger of falling into legalism when people’s consciousness of God begins to dwindle. When this happens someone starts making up lots of rules about how long the shirt sleeves are and the like in order to try and retain what was once there. It becomes legalism. This is a vicious cycle. God begins to resist this activity as folk who had begun in the Spirit are now trying to perfect themselves by the flesh. What is the solution for these times? Walk that valley seeking the Lord in faith until He rains down the Holy Ghost again. Don’t try to be the Holy Ghost. What is a believer to do in their Christian walk? Simple; do what the Holy Ghost is convicting you to do from the moment you turn to Him in faith and repentance. God will bring things to the surface for you to deal with from time to time. You may be walking along and GOD will bring something to your remembrance that you need to work out. Will you do what God is telling you? You will stand each time "at the beginning of it all" and have to choose what you will do. This is the road of perfection- and it is that of maintaining a clear conscience between God and us. If our heart condemns us we need to repent, confess the sin, and forsake it. Holy Ghost conviction will always lead to God for the good of our relationship with Him; an accusation from the accuser will always make you want to flee from God. Satan can accuse us, but only God can convict us. Condemnation is the result of the enemies accusations as they weigh on our minds and hearts; but we must remember that only God can truly condemn us. Our heart will condemn us if we know there is something between God and us. Make it right with Him! Do not delay! Keep your conscience clear before God.

freecd wrote: JESUS EXPECTS AND DEMANDS OBEDIENCE!!!!No one is denying that. The issue is what is obedience and what is disobedience. Diobedience, in its rawest form, is selfishness. No one can deny that every child is selfish from day one. When have you ever seen a baby that "loved his neighbour as himself"? Also, watch children, and you see that they learn to be selfish totally unassisted. We also know that "bad company corrupts good character". Couple this with the fact that it has been proven that babies can hear things from in the womb, that can affect their lives, and it's totally possible for a baby to become a sinner (considering that sin/righteousness is primarily attitudal, but expressed by action - Mat 5:21-48). And that's only by scientific analysis.The issue of judgement for sin, is the same as dealing with childhood sin. When the're ignorant, they receive a wink, are taught why it's bad, and are told not to do it again, but after that, you're not ignorant anymore (Acts 17:30-31). But I've never seen a kid, who is oblivious the fact that he's done something naughty. Hey, even my 2 year old daught has developed the "gift" of lying convincingly, to get herself out of trouble (and she's self taught).There is an age of accountability (when that is, I don't know, but I believe that it would have to be tightly linked to maturity levels, and until then responsability is shared with the parent - but I can't give scriptural reference for that) that makes allowances for the fact that "they're kids and don't know better", howoever God determines that fact, not us (and I'll direct us back to my daughter for proof of that:-)).As far as the whole "What about the Africans who have never had a chance to hear the gospel" arguement, may I direct everyones ears toward Paris Reidhead's The Right Use of the Law (He tells a similar story in "Ten Shekels and a Shirt", but here he goes into more detail).In essence, everybody is required to be selfless, and everybody understands that (even children - refer to Winkie Pratney's "Marks of a True Jesus Person") when someone elses selflessness is directed at them. Selfishness is about thinking that your more important than someone else, including God (otherwise, you wouldn't do anything wrong by them). It's about choosing your own "right and wrong", rather than consulting God on the matter. This is what the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil does. the only remedy is death. The only issue we need to worry about, is will the death be "eternal or temporary". Will we allow ourselves to be judged on earth, or will we wait until after death, because it's too late to display the necessary change, that proves that you realise your selfishness (ie, produce fruit meet for repentance) then.

Jesus requires our full obedience but as we grow in Christ that line changes. In other words as we grow closer to Jesus, our relationship with Him changes and His requirements change as well. What He allowed two or three weeks ago are things He no longer allows but God decides those things that need to be cut off.My fear is that Matthew 5:48 may be misinterpreted through the lens of the Western world. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.The Greek words for perfect here means complete in Christ, not sinless perfection. It's not about trying harder. That's what happened to the holiness movement in the U.S. and it became all about legalism in the early 70s. Here's the Greek word. 5046 teleios tel'-i-os from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.

Thanks for posting that freecd. I love the way Finney puts it!

Let me say this:We are not suppose to fight sin. :eek:We are told to flee from it. (2 Timothy 2:22)For as for my flesh there is nothing good and I cannot hope to defeat sin on my own, otherwise Jesus would not have to had died.But the question is WHERE do I flee? I flee to Jesus! He equips me with the full armor of God, for each one is a grace, and then and only then do I take my stand against the devils schemes! There is no hope in the fight against sin otherwise."With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." - Mark 10:27Fighting in Christ,-Eli

Reading through the post up to this point I'll tell where my understanding of theology has brought me. The free will of man is not bound, in other words it is a free moral agent able to choose between good and evil. In this case God and the sinful nature. I know words and terms are not the precise terms but I am sure you know what I mean.The exercise of my will in the area of God takes on this form. I make a decision every morning to wake up and spend time with God. Does that decision in itself allow me to become like Jesus, no not directly, and I think this is where the whole thing meets. I exercise my will to seek God, believing that he is rewarder of those that deligently seek him. And in seeking him, the action of the Holy Spirit upon my life makes me become like him and therefore fulfill his commands. Did my will sanctify me, well you could look at it and say yes it did, but in actual fact the only thing my will did was put me in a position for God to do his maximum work upon my heart.This has been discussed at length somewhere on the forums, but its that will that bridges the gap between a infinitley holy God and a rebellious sinful man. So tying it into can we obey God, certainly we can because he has said he will do it, and it is impossible for him to lie. Thank God, Thank God, Thank God!!!!!!I am presuming allot of things about what we believe as a whole so there may be glaring holes in what I have said. ;-)

I wouldn't start attacking Finney unless the fruit you bear surpasses the fruit of his life.

JesseI like your list of contrasts between the preachers and the bible. It is encouraging to see the counselling advice that 'you will continue to sin, but now you can have instant forgiveness' has not convinced everyone.I would add only my regular admonition. Just because the bible says it, that doesn't mean that you can do it. Shocked? Christianity is not made possible by what we believe but by Whom we receive.

Just because the bible says it, that doesn't mean that you can do it. Shocked? Christianity is not made possible by what we believe but by Whom we receive.I agree with Bro.Ron here and this is exactly what I see lacking in so many teachings on the Gospel. There is no real emphasis on the necessity of walking in the Spirit. We hear this or that, but we do not hear the issue of walking in the Spirit. We hear legalism or try harder or all that, but where are the teachings on walking in the power of the Holy Ghost?It is impossible to symphonically live out the teachings of Jesus Christ without being continually filled with the Spirit and walking in the power of the Spirit. We simply cannot do in the flesh what can only be done in the Spirit. The Gospel of Jesus Christ provides ‘liberty’ from the written laws of the Old Covenant, while simultaneously bringing the Spirit filled believer into conformance with the righteous requirements of the law- establishing that law. This is a process worked out by God who is writing His laws in our hearts and minds as we familiarize ourselves with the word and seek to walk in fullness of the Spirit. It is the molding of the very personality and heart of an individual that they by nature do those things that are pleasing to God. If you walk in the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. If you walk in the Spirit you will yield the fruit of the Spirit. If you walk in the Spirit you will emulate the person of Jesus Christ being changed into His image from glory to glory until the very fabric of our nature is after God and true holiness. This is why I get concerned by excessive teachings that go beyond the teachings of scripture and actually border on a 'Buddhistic' version of Christianity. Christianity is not Buddhism or asceticism or any of that. It is a life lived out in the Spirit that loves God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves. Our devotional life is merely one aspect of our Christian life and when it is overly emphasized to the exclusion of the simple things that we are to be doing as believers we are in error. I could have been a Buddhist and lived like a Shinto monk trying to tap into my KI, but that is not God. Look at this passage:Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. (Colossians 2:21-23 NIV) It is an age old trap that Christians have run into and it is that of confusing extreme self-abasement and the like with genuine Spirituality. The prophets of Baal cut themselves to get their 'god' to answer. Yet Elijah simply spoke of the God before whom he stood. What is it? We need to focus on walking in the Spirit. God Bless,-Robert

I guess a good question at this point would be, in what manner are we to preach sanctification?Do we follow Wesley in preaching a message of wide relevance and then at the end call those who are hungry to come aside and learn more about entire sanctification in a small group setting? Or do we follow other preachers who taught these things to whoever would listen? I guess the question is, do we drive them or do we draw them?In Christ,Ron

Christianity is not made possible by what we believe but by Whom we receive.Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. (a) Working Virtue from God. . . for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. (Romans 6:19)First, man should kill sin in himself through virtue; for just as man is removed from God by sin must he be brought nigh again unto God by virtue . . . but let no one believe that he is free from sins, unless he hath taken unto himself all the virtues.The positive side is this—that we work all the virtues of Jesus in and through our members, but this can only be done when all self-reliance has come to an end (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:9). Our natural virtues are remnants of what God created man to be, not promises of what he is going to be. The natural virtues cannot be patched up to come anywhere near God’s demands, and the sign that God is at work in us is that He corrupts our confidence in the natural virtues. It is simply an amplification of the old Gospel hymn—Nothing in my hand I bring, Simply to Thy Cross I cling!Chambers, O. 1996, c1941. If thou wilt be perfect : Talks on spiritual philosophy. Marshall, Morgan & Scott: London

"We need a fresh revelation of the grace of God. The grace of God does not allow us to continue in sin. The grace of God enables, equips, and empowers us to overcome all sin."How true it is. I have found it in my own life. One topic that I thought would be of interest as I (like you Bro. Jessie) spend so much time ministring victory over sin; what if we flipped the emphasis to loving God and our neighbor as a positive act instead of emphasizing victory over sin? It just came to me here so I have no fresh thoughts to add- but it seems to make sense. God Bless,-Robert

This talk of walking in the Spirit really reminded again of the fact that people need to be born-again. I remember watching the interview with Ravenhill and hearing him speak about people passing from death to life and the process of spiritual birth. Certainly and area in the modern gospel that is not highlighted enough.

Lazarus1719 wrote:I wish to write more on walking in the fruits of the Spirit and also on completely turning from the works of the flesh. Are they not one and the same thing? Do you thing that you can have neither at any given momment?

There was a teaching a couple of years ago by Bob Mumford about simaler thing, it was called 'Unshared Love' very deep teaching about the personal giants that we face. There were seven of them. I can't remember them all but they were 'Look Good', Feel Good', 'Be Right', 'Stay In Control' I can't remember the others but certainly targeted seven giants of self that needed to be slain.

Jesus abolished the Law but He did not abolish holiness! He gave us the promised Holy Spirit to walk in His precious footsteps.

P.S. I'm sure that the blessings of Christ's Holiness gain FOR YOU at the cross are indeed the "offense of the cross" that Paul was talking about. It offends the hopelessly religious zealots in this world.Was that necessary? :-?

picky400 wrote:So I have to try doubly hard to drive my point across. I don't know if you were using the word 'grace in regards to my headline. Conside this scripture:All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. Luke 4:22 NIVgracea) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech2) good will, loving-kindness, favoura) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues3) what is due to gracea) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine graceb) the token or proof of grace, benefit1) a gift of grace2) benefit, bounty4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, rewardInteresting verse in Eph 4:29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. KJVI have always interpreted that verse as my very words have power to build up and encourage those who are missing the mark.So, in this context, perhaps a hammer drives it home better than a badmitton raquet. Picky400 To drag your anology a bit further, maybe using a machete is preferable to using a scalpal for open heart surgery. ;-)

picky400 wrote:I feel that many of the people in this forum adhere to the Law as their means of justification and not Christ. Therefore, Pharisees. I disagree, they really want to please God, and are pushing in the best way they know how.

picky400 wrote:This is referring to those who came to hear him preach all day long. The Pharisees had a much different opinion of him. But Picky I'm listening to you,your words, and intent and they are falling short of both those categories of scripture that I quoted. Now that I have stated that I have a problem with your speech have I been downgraded to a Pharisee? :-P