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Were the disciples born again before or after Pentecost?

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sermonindex

Yesterday at our church fellowship we studied the work and ministry of the Holy Spirit in respect to being born again.

If you recall Jesus after He rose from the dead, breathed on His disciples and said, "receive the Holy Spirit". Also in Acts 19 Paul came across some disciples in Ephesus and asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed, to which they said no, and then Paul prays for them and they received the Holy Spirit. This brings up several questions in my mind that I would appreciate help with:

1) Do you think the disciples became born again of the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them? Or were they already born again, or did this happen on the day of Pentecost?
2) Do you think the Ephesus disciples were born again before Paul prayed for them?
3) If the Ephesus believers had not yet received the Holy Spirit and if they were not in fact born again, what would have happened to them if they had died in that state?

Any and all points of view are welcome...I am seeking answers, thank you brothers and sisters for your thoughtful input.
Mark

T
twayneb

I don't they could not be born again until after the crucifixion. However, we are born again through faith in what Jesus has done for us. I think we could probably read out of the record of the interim period between the crucifixion and Pentecost that the disciples believed on Christ and put faith in what He did on the cross. My guess is that it was not only the disciples that believed. There were 120 who gathered in the upper room.

I may be wrong, but to me it seems your line of questioning presupposes that the infilling of the Holy Spirit is synonymous with salvation. I do not believe that to be the case, and perhaps that colors my answer a bit. Or perhaps you do not make a distinction between the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation and the experience of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that I believe is separate from and necessarily subsequent to salvation. Since I make that distinction, my answer will obviously be colored by that belief.

1) I would say they were born again at whatever time they put faith in the work of Christ and received His sacrifice for their sins. I cannot speak of the significance of Jesus breathing on them. I have never settled on exactly what happened in that moment. I guess you could be right and that could have been the moment of salvation, but I don't think it could be settled either way from scripture. What I do know is that we are born again when we put faith in Christ for our salvation.

2) I believe that the Ephesian believers were born again at the time of Paul's visit. Paul even says, "since you believed." If believing is the requirement for salvation, then surely they were saved. We don't typically refer to unsaved folk as believers.

3 To me, It appears clear from Acts 19 that they had not received the Holy Spirit prior to this time since they are recorded as having said, "We have never heard of any Holy Ghost", and summarily received the Holy Spirit.

S
sermonindex

Hi brother, thanks for the comments. I utterly reject the notion that one must be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to be saved, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone.

Perhaps we will never really know the answer to when each of these groups was actually born again/saved. The Lord said that the wind blows where it wills and no one understands it, so it is with all those who are born again. It would appear that becoming born again is not something an outsider can easily discern. In fact if it was that easy, why did Paul even have to ask them, "have you yet received the Holy Spirit."

I appreciate your comments on the Ephesus believers, they are very helpful.

Mark

C
Croref

Hi folks. If I may add my .02:

Here Jesus speaks of all three manifestations of the Holy Spirit:

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter , that he may abide "with" you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for "he dwelleth with you", and shall be "in" you. John 14:16-17 (KJV)

1. Jesus was "with" the Disciples when speaking that.

2. Being in them, that speaks of being born again, was fulfilled in John 20:22: "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost"

3. The enduement for power happened at the "coming upon" here: "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat "upon" each of them. Acts 2:3 (KJV)

Luke 24 and Acts 1 speak of the instructions given the Disciples to not leave Jerusalem but to wait for the enduement before beginning their respective ministries and this was not unlike Jesus had to do before beginning His.

1. Jesus was born "indwelt" with the Word.
2. The Word was "with" Him for 30yrs.
3. The Holy Ghost came "upon" Him for His ministry; before being sent into the world.

I hope this will add something of worth to the discussion.

S
sermonindex

This is a touchy subject. It can't be answered in a few words.

C
Croref

Does that mean it shouldn't be discussed that one's thinking might be adjusted? For instance:

Acts 18;26 re Apollos and 19 the disciples of John with Paul, were not events that demonstrated the need of salvation or even indwelling but, the need for Pentecost in their ministry.

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sermonindex

This is a great question. We need to have more discussions like this, instead of some of the ones we generally have here.

Born again? Well, let's keep in mind that Jesus said "Unless a man be born again he can not see the kingdom of God". (John 3:3) He then went on to explain what that meant. Therefore we can conclude that there was such a thing as being "born again" before Acts chapter 2. And John 3:3 is very early in Jesus ministry.

Being reborn is a spiritual thing that happens to a person when God moves upon them and awaken their dead spirit... brings it back to life... resurrection. This has been happening ever since the fall and mans spirit was declared DOA. We are dead in our sins. Thats a state that mankind has been in since Eden. God then moves upon a man to quicken his soul... bring to life that which was dead.

Thats "born again". This DID happen to the disciples while they walked with Christ. For most of them (Judas was the exception) this happened to them when He called them to follow Him. Then they began the walk of sanctification.

They did not need the Holy Spirit while they walked with Christ. Thats not to say the Spirit of God was not among them, but they were walking and talking with God in the flesh. When Christ left them He sent another... the Holy Spirit... who taught, empowered, etc.

This is a great question, and I am glad it was asked. Made me think. I'm sure there will be others who may give a slightly different answer, but I do believe the disciples were "born again" before Acts chapter 2.

Krispy

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Croref

The new birth could NOT have occurred before Jesus resurrected and was glorified. This is crucial for the understanding of it because the new birth of man was for the indwelling of His Life in___ whom He chooses. There is a cost associated with it. If John 20:22 wasn't for this then why would the Disciples need it and that it wasn't for power for ministry which came later in Acts 2? OMT, John 20:22 was NOT the promise of the Father which was also Acts 2 as Peter spoke of it in vs 38,39.

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sermonindex

So God did not save anyone at all before the resurrection? Is that what you are saying?

Krispy

C
Croref

Did they [the righteous] not die with only the promise of their redemption? Where did they go when they died? Why?

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sermonindex

This is where we will begin to get into the Calvinism debate. I believe each and every one them who came before the resurrection, died and were held in Abraham's Bossom were God's elect from the beginning of time. So at this point we will probably get into arguing semantics... only to find that we may or may not be saying the same thing.

Krispy

C
Croref

I won't get into the Calvin thing in any of this. Even the elect or only those who are selected_the word means the same thing. However, we might ask "for what reason" to which I would reply, because they are born again and have proven their allegiance to God. Why I say that is because I believe Jesus chooses from among the saved those who hunger and thirst after knowing the Father as He declares eternal life to be. (cf John 17:3) They are a special people who, relative to Christianity at large, are few in number. By this, I make no distinction between a Disciple and a serious Christian__ "one who loves not his life even unto death".

. . . . this opposed to those who love this life but want Jesus, too__ in whom God has no pleasure.

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sermonindex

1) Do you think the disciples became born again of the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them? Or were they already born again, or did this happen on the day of Pentecost?

I will put it this way:

Christ did give them the Holy Spirit so they could do miracles in His name.

They still did not receive the promise of the ever present Holy Spirit dwelling within them. It was also impossible for them to have Christ truly dwelling within them.

They could not yet participate in Christ's divine nature. Like all old testament saints their sins were only covered, not yet totally taken away.

They did not yet have a new heart or a new Spirit and where not yet converted. They where not new creations in Christ until the day of Pentecost.

Only after Christ death and resurrection was the New Covenant enacted. Until Pentecost they all lived under the old Covenant.

2) Do you think the Ephesus disciples were born again before Paul prayed for them?

No! The bible is clearly states that they were only disciples of John the baptist.

3:3) If the Ephesus believers had not yet received the Holy Spirit and if they were not in fact born again, what would have happened to them if they had died in that state?

The same thing that happened to all old testament believers.


"The Christian life is not an imitation of Christ, but a direct new creation in Christ, and the union with Christ is so complete that He imparts His own nature to us and lives His own life in us. This, then, is not an imitation but simply the outgrowth of the nature implanted within.

We live Christlike because we have the Christ-life. God is not satisfied with anything less than perfection. He required that from His Son. He requires it from us, and He does not, in the process of grace, reduce the standard, but He brings us up to it. He does not let down the righteousness of the law, but He requires of us a righteousness that far exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, and then He imparts it to us. He counts us righteous in sanctification, and He says of the new creation, He that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous (I John 3:7).

Lord, live out Thy very life in me."

This is true Christianity.

look at https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=46388&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

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sermonindex

I asked the question because I want to understand the power of the gospel. The gospel or good news of Christ is the power of God to produce salvation to them that believe. I am passionate about knowing what it actually means to be saved. Is this the same as being born again? Is it instant or ongoing? What does it mean that "he who endures to the end shall be saved"? Can a person lose their salvation? Is it possible to believe in Christ but yet not be truly born again? Of course, but that would mean that we only think we believe, but do not indeed have saving faith, or rather do not have the faith that produces salvation.
1) "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."
2) "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?"
3) "that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith..."

I have no intention to stir up controversy, and I would never judge the salvation of anyone on this earth. If you knew my full testimony you would better understand why I ask these questions and the reason I am so eager to come to a knowledge of the Truth.

But let me just say this much. I once thought I was saved, I preached, taught, church planted, baptized and was all things Christian. But one day God woke me up and came to see that I did not KNOW HIM. Meaning I did not have the Spirit. That's all I will share for now, but from that day onwards I have been passionate about wanting to know for myself and to be able to explain to sinners and believers alike what it means to actually be saved.

I truly believe salvation is not as nearly well understood by even the most learned scholars as we think it is. Otherwise those scriptures above would be agreed on by all.

One thing I do know is this. The Kingdom of God consists of and is evidenced by the LIFE of God, manifested by the Holy Spirit...righteousness, peace and joy. Until recently I did not have the Spirit, yet I would have sworn black and blue that I was saved, because I placed my faith fully in the finished work of Christ. Evidently not.

Today, I take no chances with me, my family or anyone that I teach, not that I am able to or would ever want to judge another, but I do now know that if I do not have the Spirit of Christ, then I fail the test, according to Jesus and Paul and the whole counsel of scripture as far as I can tell.

Yours in Christ,
Mark

S
sermonindex

I won't get into the Calvin thing in any of this. Even the elect or only those who are selected_the word means the same thing. However, we might ask "for what reason" to which I would reply, because they are born again and have proven their allegiance to God. Why I say that is because I believe Jesus chooses from among the saved those who hunger and thirst after knowing the Father as He declares eternal life to be. (cf John 17:3) They are a special people who, relative to Christianity at large, are few in number. By this, I make no distinction between a Disciple and a serious Christian__ "one who loves not his life even unto death".

So their salvation was based upon what they did? Their works?

Krispy

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sermonindex

Dear Tuc,
I thank you for your response, I think I am on the same page as you in regard to these matters.

To anyone who cares to respond...do you think there is any correlation at all between between being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit? By this I mean, that there is a process that takes place with the natural birth, could there likewise be process with the Spirit Birth?

1) Conception. The new child is conceived...life begins, yet we would not yet say the child is "born".
2) Gestation. The new life is developing, if it emerges too soon, the life will be lost...we would still not consider this child to have been "born" yet though.
3) Passing through the birth canal. The child is almost born, not quite though...and in fact there is some degree of peril yet and this is the most dangerous stage of the "birth"...many things can go wrong. We may see the head, feel the pain, but the child is still, almost but not quite, yet "born".
4) Delivery. Hooray!!! The child is finally delivered out from the mothers womb into a new world, to breathe the air of its parents. Now we would say, the child has finally been BORN!!!

Though, I concede, it is the product of my overly productive imagination to think that being "born again" means to actually come forth from the "womb of God", there is something to be said of this. "Born from above", "born of the Spirit". So for that reason I offer the curious analogy of how we are actually born again, that mysterious process. Perhaps the process is more arduous and involved than we think which would almost explain the parable of the sower and why so many, never fully come through to true saving faith in Christ.

In all of these ponderings though my dear brothers and sisters, may our goal be first and foremost, that we might KNOW HIM.

Much love in Christ,
Mark

C
Croref

I can well relate to you, Mark. I professed Christ and did the Christian thing and yet I did the worldly thing. Cutting to the chase, I got desperate for waiting for God to do what we are given to believe, "Come to Jesus and He will change your life" to happen. The magical thing never happened.

I am a man with many years behind me, most unprofitable in Christ. I have many hobbies, interests and talents. My Bible reads God is a consuming fire. In my desperation and sincerity, I cried out for God to consume everything in my life that hindered my relationship with Him. Guess what?

It is for that reason and experience that I believe I am now truly born again. I can not explain it any other way AND it has led me to conclude there is a distinction between being saved and being born again where it is we first choose Him and to not assume He chooses us until we mean business. Then I searched the scriptures to see there is no difference between a Christian and a disciple of Jesus Christ. Read what is required that Jesus states as mandatory.
John 17:3 speaks of what eternal is. Let Him who desires to know, "first count the cost" because there is a price to pay.

Question: Why do we see what we readily call nominalism in the Christian church and then lets make correction to our own thinking about where we are in the scheme of things of God with regards to our being born from above. Are we there?

C
Croref

So their salvation was based upon what they did? Their works?

Krispy


How 'bout we conclude He chooses those who love Him__and demonstrate it?

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Christinyou

Jesus was the Word. As His humanity matured, so in human form, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Even at 12 years of age in the temple they marveled at His words.

Jesus said Himself, "The Holy Spirit cannot come until He, "Jesus" is gone. He was gone at pentecost and that is when the Holy Spirit came to believers to be in them. Not upon them.

John 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Even as He prayed the Father to send the Holy Spirit Comforter.

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Not upon them.

And Jesus said He would not leave us comfortless either.
He would come back in the Spirit of Gods Son birthed in the believers, that the Father's house would be full of Spirit and Christ filled children who are the only ones capable of being in the Fathers House.

John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Not upon them.

Where are we going? John 14:3-4 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

We will be received us unto Himself; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This is what we are waiting for; keep looking up.

All based upon what He has done and what He is doing.

IN Christ: Phillip

C
Croref

Jesus said Himself, "The Holy Spirit cannot come until He, "Jesus" is gone. He was gone at pentecost and that is when the Holy Spirit came to believers to be in them.

. . . to be Upon them brother__not IN them. He was already in them. Cf John 17:3.

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sermonindex

This has been a profitable discussion but I want to bring caution to myself and any others who have an ear...that we do not give the impression that we are saved by virtue of us having a special kind of hungering or a greater desire to know the truth.

I personally can attest to my own experience in that I was minding my own business so to speak when the Lord saw fit, in His mercy to "wake me up" from my sleep. I didn't do anything to deserve this, on the contrary, I deserved to die in my sins for my utter rebellion and hypocrisy. Yet, He loves me so much that He want after me and broke into my sin filled, self-righteous darkness and shook me from my slumber.

I do not have the theological explanation of why he had mercy on me and why I responded in faith...all I can say is that I am grateful beyond any words can explain. I know that it was nothing that I did to merit His love or His mercy. It was not anything that I did to bring about the salvation of my soul and the life that He gave me by the Holy Spirit. And likewise I know now that I am "being saved" by the exactly the same process...it is Christ in me, this life I live I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave His life for me. We are saved by faith in Christ and until the day He calls us home, we continue to draw our Life from Him, and Him alone by trusting Him for everything. May He encourage us to continually draw near in faith, believing Him to provide all that pertains to life and godliness in Christ Jesus.

In Him,
Mark

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Christinyou

Christ was with the 12 and upon them, He lived with them ate with them and fellowshipped with them for three and a half years, but He was not in them. The Father had to give birth to the incorruptable Seed in the believer after Christ was with them, died, resurrected, and returned to the Father. That is when The Father answered the Son's prayer and the Holy Spirit came at pentecost and upon them as tongues of fire and was baptized into them. Then the Spirit of Christ was birthed in us also, now complete, being baptized into One Spirit we are the offspring of God.

Acts 2:3-4 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Filled and in them forever.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Spirit of God, The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit in all that are baptized into this One Spirit, One God, the Three in one.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Spirit of Christ unto new life and the Holy Spirit Parakleet the teacher of this Mystery hidden from all time until revealed to Paul, which is Christ in you the hope of glory.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ: Phillip; not with the One Spirit upon but fully in me forever by the Fathers perfect plan, even before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

S
sermonindex

Hi Mark

Quote :Is this the same as being born again? Is it instant or ongoing? What does it mean that "he who endures to the end shall be saved"? Can a person lose their salvation? Is it possible to believe in Christ but yet not be truly born again? Of course, but that would mean that we only think we believe, but do not indeed have saving faith, or rather do not have the faith that produces salvation.
1) "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."
2) "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?"
3) "that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith..." END QUOTE

I had the same experience as you and have asked myself the same questions and I believe born again is not the same as saved.


I think there are three stages to salvation - salvation from sin that is as Christ died to save us from sin.

We see the three stages in the disciples.

One: We hear the call of Christ and we come to Him for forgiveness of PAST SINS. We start to follow Him as did the disciples but we are not yet united with Him (we have to catch up with Him first) We do this by following the light within and obeying it which leads to more light.

Two: Christ breathes on us the Holy Spirit and we are born again. However we are still not indwelt in fullness. This point is also called illumination.

Three: Pentecost and release from the presence and not just the power of sin. This is full salvation and the only way the scriptures can be understood without contradiction. This is the point of full union with Christ and when the power of God is upon us mightily and which we are not seeing nowadays.


R
RobertW

I typically answer this question, with a question; 'were the disciples 'in' Christ while Christ walked the earth?' Were they baptized by one Spirit into His one Body while He was on earth? We know that if any man be in Christ he/she is a new creature; so who was 'in Christ' when Christ was on the earth?

C
Croref

Mark, Caution isn't necessary nor is the mentioning of "self-righteousness" to anyone who knows what the issues are that surround initial salvation. So lets lay that aside and know that God rewards, gives favor, to those who diligently seek Him. That is not arguable.

The second thing I see is you overlook the foreknowledge of God in your testimony. One cannot do that and still get understanding as to why God chose them when, in such sin we find ourselves, after a 'profession' of Faith in Christ. To this I can personally attest to__and for which I am eternally grateful He saw beyond my sin to my eventual contriteness [come to my senses] that He would not despise__and He wouldn't because He [fore]knew I would meaning business. Can you see what I am getting at? It was at that time, I believe, He chose me simply because I can't explain my life as it now is, consumed in Him. I know I have received something that simply repeating a sinners prayer does not accord that one who believes he is born again by saying it. Consider the empty pews in today's churches left empty by those who claim salvation but a have fishing date they would rather keep.

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 4:42:00

I typically answer this question, with a question; 'were the disciples 'in' Christ while Christ walked the earth?' Were they baptized by one Spirit into His one Body while He was on earth? We know that if any man be in Christ he/she is a new creature; so who was 'in Christ' when Christ was on the earth?

No one except perhaps by a fallible personal relationship. cf John 6:66, [even Peter]. It could not have been otherwise since the Holy Spirit had not yet been given; Jesus had not yet been Glorified to make it possible. cf John 20:22.

C
Croref

Hi Krautfrau!

I can readily relate to your post, that is except for this part:

"I think there are three stages to salvation - salvation from sin that is as Christ died to save us from sin.

One: We hear the call of Christ and we come to Him for forgiveness of PAST SINS. We start to follow Him as did the disciples but we are not yet united with Him (we have to catch up with Him first) We do this by following the light within and obeying it which leads to more light."

Question: How can we "follow the light" within without receiving such light by the New Birth? Might you not have been simultaneously been born again at the time of coming to Christ for His "forgiveness of sins"? Otherwise, what or who is the light you would believe inside you? Would not a confirming word be in order? I'm just asking because I too, have wrestled with this issue. P.s. Now knowing the scriptures has cleared it all up__Thank God!

C
Croref

by Christinyou on 2012/10/25 18:06:07

"Christ was with the 12 and upon them, He lived with them ate with them and fellowshipped with them for three and a half years, but He was not in them."

Nor could He have possibly been "upon" them. This spoken to the Disciples by Jesus who He had previous administered the "new Birth" from above in John 20:22:

Read Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:4,5. Follow it up with Acts 2.

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sermonindex

Mark

Scripture tells us that Christ is the light which lights all men that come into the world. John 1:9 If we do not quench that light it will bring us to salvation. It works in all men till they turn away.

C
Croref

"by krautfrau on 2012/10/26 6:01:14

Mark

Scripture tells us that Christ is the light which lights all men that come into the world. John 1:9 If we do not quench that light it will bring us to salvation. It works in all men till they turn away."

Excellent verse of scripture, krautfrau!

I wonder if we might call that "light" a "measure of faith" in God given all men? I ask because many have such faith, who live by it, and I believe are justified by it per Rom. 5:1, yet never have never heard of Jesus. What do you think?

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sermonindex

I dont think it is faith in God as such. It is rather the sense of right and wrong which speaks into our conscience which when obeyed will lead a man to Christ but will not justify a man.

S
sermonindex

On reconsideration perhaps there is a measure of faith in the existence of something greater than ourselves but that is not trust in God alone for salvation.

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sermonindex

Mod RobertW said:

Were the disciples in Christ while He was on the earth?
No

John 14:20 AT THAT DAY ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

There was a specific day coming, probably at Pentecost no doubt.

Were they baptized by one Spirit into His one Body while He was on earth?
No

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

At this point He had not yet returned by His Spirit to accomplish this as He was still in a robe of flesh. It was not possible for man to be in Christ as man did not have the Promise that would cause him to be born again to bring his spirit in line with Christs. This would come at Pentecost, when the Father and the Son would come into the 120 as One Holy Spirit to sup with them.

so who was 'in Christ' when Christ was on the earth?
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

A shorter answer: God

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/10/26 6:59:09

"At this point He had not yet returned by His Spirit to accomplish this as He was still in a robe of flesh. It was not possible for man to be in Christ as man did not have the Promise that would cause him to be born again to bring his spirit in line with Christs. This would come at Pentecost, when the Father and the Son would come into the 120 as One Holy Spirit to sup with them."

Hi Approved! While the "Promise" was indeed fulfilled at Pentecost, Pentecost was NOT for re-birthing anyone since it was for "Clothing" of power as a minister of Christ, for overcoming, for those who already were per John 20:22. Ergo, the Promise was not the re-birth of anyone. This is why Pentecost is important in the life of "born again believer__so important Jesus said, "Don't leave Jerusalem without it".
I might add that this is what Adam lacked when up against his temptation that he failed and what Jesus possessed when overcoming His.

C
Croref

by krautfrau on 2012/10/26 6:53:22

"On reconsideration perhaps there is a measure of faith in the existence of something greater than ourselves but that is not trust in God alone for salvation."


Thanks Krautfrau! I believe that "measure of faith" could have been that which produced in one a hope of redemption as in, "I know my redeemer lives" . . Job. Whatta ya think?

C
Christinyou

"Receive ye the Holy Spirit", is a promise of what would happen at Pentecost.

By John Gill,

Quote:

"And saith unto them, receive ye the Holy Ghost; meaning not the grace of the Holy Ghost in regeneration, which they had received already; but the gifts of the Spirit, to qualify them for the work he now sent them to do, and which were not now actually bestowed; but this breathing on them, and the words that attended it, were a symbol, pledge, and confirmation, of what they were to receive on the day of Pentecost: hence it appears, that it is the Spirit of God, who, by his gifts and grace, makes and qualifies men to be ministers of the Gospel; and our Lord by this action, and these words, gives a very considerable proof of his deity: the Papists show their impudence and wickedness, in imitating Christ by their insufflations, or breathing on men; pretending thereby to convey the Holy Spirit to them." End.


AS proof, in my own understanding. Peter shortly after, denied that he even knew the Lord Jesus. But On the day of Pentecost, by receiving power from on high, that is the endwelling of the Holy Spirit, being filled Peter boldly proclaimed Jesus Christ to the Jews telling them that they had slain the Lord of Glory, their Messiah.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

A different Peter, no denial after Pentecost.

Acts 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

In Christ: Phillip


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rnieman

Hi Phillip you spoke to Peter before and after pentecost.

I would say before pentecost Peter was saved, after pentecost Peter was endowed with power from on high, thus in his first message preached several thousand were saved, and several other accounts after that concerning Peter show this demonstration of the Spirit and power.


Bless you,

Russ

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Mark

Quote: I believe that "measure of faith" could have been that which produced in one a hope of redemption as in, "I know my redeemer lives" . . Job. Whatta ya think?
2012/10/26 7:23End Quote

Not sure about that. Job was a holy man ie reached stage three but went through the severe testing you get at that stage. He knew his Redeemer but those who have not just come to Him do not know Him as Redeemer.

The breath Jesus breathed is the awakening or spiritual rebirth.\t

R
RobertW

Hi Coref,

Hi Approved! While the "Promise" was indeed fulfilled at Pentecost, Pentecost was NOT for re-birthing anyone since it was for "Clothing" of power as a minister of Christ, for overcoming, for those who already were per John 20:22.

Since we have determined that no one was 'in Christ' (except God) prior to His ascension, how did the believers get 'into' Christ? I think we have a clue in Ephesians 4:

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

All other baptisms and the revelation they provide us with throughout the Old Testament point to this 'One Baptism' that John Baptist and Paul spoke of. It is too broad a subject to list each one and their significance, but they are all ultimately pointing to this great event of 'One Baptism'.


Exegetically we know that we cannot pluralize one aspect of this seven fold revelation in Ephesians 4:4-6 and leave the other 6 singular. To do so would be to στρεβλοῦσιν (wrest) the passage. As surely as there is one God there is only really only One Baptism. There are baptisms many, for sure, but all others are merely types and shadows; instruments of God's revelation. So when Paul gets ready to use the word 'baptism' a whole history of cross-referenced stories should arise in the minds of his hearers that we students of the revelation God had given man to this point.

This 'One Baptism' by the Spirit into One Body, I suggest, is what takes a person 'OUT' of Adam and places then 'IN' Jesus Christ. (1 Cor. 15:22) God had been moving mankind towards this promise since the Fall of Adam if not before. We needed to be taken out from the Body of Sin (under the head of old Adam) and baptized into the Body of Christ (under the last Adam). In Adam all die, but in Christ shall all be made alive, etc. In Adam we experience all the ramifications of his sin- including the fall and all of the spiritual and physical consequences of it. We were first born in Adam and we share in Adam's experience in a very real sense. BUT, if any man be in Christ (the last Adam), he/she is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17) We then wait, to whit, for the redemption of our bodies.

How can I be born again into Christ? How can these things be? Can I enter my mother's womb a second time? (John 3) Answer: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13)

In another figure, this One Baptism event was when the God that was in Christ (as alluded to earlier because He WAS the Temple when He walked the earth John 2:19), came into man to make them temples (individually) and the Temple (corporately) of the Holy Spirit. The Pentecost event was the true figure of all the other times God came to glorify the temple and tabernacle. He comes inside to take up the throne, just like He came into the Temple os Solomon, etc. to take up residence on the Mercy Seat (throne).

So I see Pentecost in the same way as when Solomon dedicated the temple and the fire and glory came; only not into a building, but into man. This fulfilled Isaiah 66:1ff and serves as the basis for Stephen's sermon in Acts 7. God came into man and "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. (John 14:20) Just some thoughts on how I see it play out. :-)

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sermonindex

This is certainly a mysterious process, that of being born again, and as such I made a statement on Sunday and I don't know where it came from...trusting the Lord that He gave it to me...but please feel free to correct me if I am talking like a looney:)

I said that it might even be possible to be born again while never having seen a bible or having heard the gospel message. Could the pure activity of the Holy Spirit be enough to convict a sinner of sin, righteousness and judgement? And is it possible that a person could put their "measure of faith" into action and thus believe that he is wrong, guilty, unrighteous and seek from his heart, justification from the Creator?

I have heard stories of prisoners in North Korea being led away to execution who have never heard the gospel but were shown an image of the Cross sewn into scrap fabric...and the sight of this apparently was enough to awaken them to bring them to faith as they were being led away. The former prisoner who told me this, believes sincerely that those young men were born again as they climbed the steps to the execution chamber, and that they would be with the Lord when they died.

Mark

C
Croref

"Since we have determined that no one was 'in Christ' (except God) prior to His ascension, how did the believers get 'into' Christ?"


Bac acha Approved!!


Jesus was glorified when He appeared to them when He breathed on them per Jn 20:22. That understanding violates nothing and supports that fact He was glorified. To believe the traditional version is to leave out that fact for their purpose of advancing a doctrinal persuasion that is incomplete. John 20:22 should also answer your question as to how the Disciples got baptized "into" Jesus__that by being born again as they then were. Same Spirit-same Life.

C
Croref

by krautfrau on 2012/10/26 9:53:06

Croref

Quote: I believe that "measure of faith" could have been that which produced in one a hope of redemption as in, "I know my redeemer lives" . . Job. Whatta ya think?
2012/10/26 7:23End Quote

"Not sure about that. Job was a holy man ie reached stage three but went through the severe testing you get at that stage. He knew his Redeemer but those who have not just come to Him do not know Him as Redeemer.

The breath Jesus breathed is the awakening or spiritual rebirth."

How does one give birth [awaken to] when there has been no conception?

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sermonindex

Well, my Aussie bro, if you be Loomie. I be Loomie. Yes, I believe those who saw tbe vision of tbe cross n N. Korea were born again and were with Jesus when they were executed. If God is appearing to tbe Moslens in dreams and visions of Jesus. And they are being saved. Who are we to say God is not saving the N. Koreans though a revelation if tbe cross. It certainly worked for the thief who saw Jesus hanging on the cross.

Mark how was Abraham saved. I just read in Romans that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Yet we are not told how or by what means he believed in God. We are not told how God spoke to him. But however God spoke to him it was enough to bring to saving faith and be made righteous in God's eight.

Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 tbe wind blows where it will. You hear its sound. But you cannot tell where it is coming from Ir where it is going. So us everyone born of the Spirit. We cannot predict nor contain. tbe sovereign activity of tbe Spirit. We cannot constrain God and say he must act in this way.

We operate in a western mindset thinking God is constrained to operate in a certain way to convert people. But as tbe scriptures say. Our thoughts are not his thoughts. And our ways are not his ways. For as the heavens are higher than tbe earth. So are God's ways and thoughts higher than our ways and thoughts.

Bottom line. God can bring anybody he wants in any way he wants to saving faith and life in Jesus.

Just my thoughts.

Blaine aka Bearmaster.

C
Croref

by rnieman on 2012/10/26 9:38:12

Hi Phillip you spoke to Peter before and after pentecost.

I would say before pentecost Peter was saved, after pentecost Peter was endowed with power from on high, thus in his first message preached several thousand were saved, and several other accounts after that concerning Peter show this demonstration of the Spirit and power.


Bless you,

Russ

Hi Russ! Amen Brother!

C
Croref

I have heard stories of prisoners in North Korea being led away to execution who have never heard the gospel but were shown an image of the Cross sewn into scrap fabric...and the sight of this apparently was enough to awaken them to bring them to faith as they were being led away. The former prisoner who told me this, believes sincerely that those young men were born again as they climbed the steps to the execution chamber, and that they would be with the Lord when they died.

Mark
______


In the finality of it all, God alone knows. We, more privileged, need to be about learning Him as Father and Jesus Christ whom He has sent, eh?

C
Croref

by Christinyou on 2012/10/26 9:06:11

"Receive ye the Holy Spirit", is a promise of what would happen at Pentecost.
_________________

It was no promise at all. Further more "Receive ye the Holy Spirit" happened before Pentecost.Jn 20:22.

Peter here reminding the Disciples of the commandment of Jesus with regards to His Baptism after himself having "Received the Holy Spirit":

"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me." Acts 1:4 (KJV) I.e., The "coming upon" for power to function as Jesus functioned.

What do we do with that, Christinyou, ignore it?

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RobertW

Hi Coref,

Bac acha Approved!!


Jesus was glorified when He appeared to them when He breathed on them per Jn 20:22. That understanding violates nothing and supports that fact He was glorified. To believe the traditional version is to leave out that fact for their purpose of advancing a doctrinal persuasion that is incomplete. John 20:22 should also answer your question as to how the Disciples got baptized "into" Jesus__that by being born again as they then were. Same Spirit-same Life.

So you are saying that John 20:22 was the moment they were baptized by one Spirit into one body?

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 11:32:03

Hi Coref,

Bac acha Approved!!


Jesus was glorified when He appeared to them when He breathed on them per Jn 20:22. That understanding violates nothing and supports that fact He was glorified. To believe the traditional version is to leave out that fact for their purpose of advancing a doctrinal persuasion that is incomplete. John 20:22 should also answer your question as to how the Disciples got baptized "into" Jesus__that by being born again as they then were. Same Spirit-same Life.

So you are saying that John 20:22 was the moment they were baptized by one Spirit into one body?
________________________

Isn't that what we call being, "born again"? If we are correct in that then it only follows we become part of the Body of Christ __and this holds true that: ". . . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". Romans 8:9 (KJV)


JTB declared Jesus to be the Baptizer of the Holy Ghost. Baptism is general is an experience the one being baptized can speak when he is. If water baptism, he gets wet. When did Jesus ever baptize anyone while on Earth that they experienced anything they might speak of as being such?? Answer__never.

C
Christinyou

rnieman wrote: Quote, "Hi Phillip you spoke to Peter before and after pentecost.:

Not personally, but yes, through the the Word of God by the Holy Spirit.

Mt 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mt 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
Mt 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

After that the Holy Spirit filled Peter on the day of Pentecost. Absolutely no denial.

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Before the Comforter came at Pentecost Peter spoke of the twelve and specifically of Judas, after Pentecost lifting up his voice spoke bodly of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit spoken of in Joel, "God pouring out His Spirit on men".

Not speaking to Peter in person but knowing him well by the Word and The Holy Spirit.

Big difference before and after Pentecost, Peter heading to reproof from Paul, which brought Peter even closer to the truth by Paul confronting Peter to his face.

In Christ: In the Holy Spirit promised at Pentecost and even in the Father, but also them in me.

Phillip

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sermonindex

Hi brother Blaine, I think we are both Loonie or as your keyboard prefers to say, "loomie"...lol. You obviously have pork sausage fingers like me brother:)

Blaine, you have captured the essence of my original post. How is it that anyone is born again? That is why I added the anecdote about the North Koreans, and of course I was not suggesting that we abandon our quest of learning Christ, in fact if we are indeed born again, how can we abandon Him, where else can we go, in whom else is found this Life???

I think this discussion also serves to show how we can become so easily caught up in doctrinal discussion regarding salvation/new birth, when the Holy Spirit Himself is the only He who can make this so in any of us, and the only one who can bear witness with us, that we are indeed born again, irrespective of how much we think we understand the doctrine of the new birth.

I wouldn't be surprised if far many more, simple, unlearned pagans are being born again in remote areas of the world, compared to the gospel soaked countries of the west filled with religiously and biblically learned individuals:) It is the entire work of the Holy Spirit in an individual, not an understanding of the nitty gritty of the process of being born again...and dare I say that applies equally to Muslims, North Koreans and North Americans.

The wind blows where it wills!!!

In Him,
Mark

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sermonindex

Quote: How does one give birth [awaken to] when there has been no conception? END OF QUOTE

Conception is when one comes to Christ and is given the power to `become` a son of God - do you agree?

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rnieman

Hi Phillip,

I don't want to put words into your mouth. Are you saying the Apostles were unsaved prior to pentecost?

Joel 2 is speaking of pentecost to come and the baptism of the HS, which we read came to pass in the book of Acts.

Russ

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RobertW

Hi Coref,

Isn't that what we call being, "born again"? If we are correct in that then it only follows we become part of the Body of Christ __and this holds true that: ". . . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". Romans 8:9 (KJV)

I think this is ok by way of logical deduction, but I'm not convinced this is what happens biblically. We have several concepts we have to define. The first is 'regeneration'. The trouble with that word is that it is only used twice in the New Testament:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

We have first Matthew 19:28 and I think there is a clue here when Jesus says, "when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory," This is my working definition of regeneration; when the son of man is sitting on the throne IN man. In every heart there is a throne, when Christ is sitting on it then we can assume we have been regenerated. This then agrees with the imagery of Titus 3:5, which is the language of priesthood. It is literally the 'laver of regeneration.' The priest would wash before going in to the holy place. The holy place and the holy of holies is all of one now because of the torn vail. The renewing prepares us for the presence and reality of the King.

We then have to define what we mean when we say 'have not the Spirit' in Romans 8. You will know that Jesus spoke of how the Disciples were given to Him of His Father (John 6:39,10:29, ed. 17:12, etc.); so they were 'His'. (John 17:12) What was their relationship to the Holy Spirit when they were 'His'? We have that in John 14:17, Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So we see then that they were His, having been given to Him of the Father in John 6:39, 10:29, etc.; but their relationship with the Holy Spirit was "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (14:17b)

Just how I kind of see it playing out.

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RobertW

I don't want to put words into your mouth. Are you saying the Apostles were unsaved prior to pentecost?

This question was not addressed to me, but I want to say categorically that justification is by grace through faith and is independent of what we are referring to here. Many great saints of God in the OT etc., did not know the blessings of the New Covenant, but were justified by faith and are 'saved'.

C
Croref


by krautfrau on 2012/10/26 12:09:11

Quote: How does one give birth [awaken to] when there has been no conception? END OF QUOTE

Conception is when one comes to Christ and is given the power to `become` a son of God - do you agree?
____________________


Thanks Krautfrau!

Here is the passage: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12 (KJV)

"Receiving Him" is to explain John 20:22, doncha think?

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 12:20:26

I don't want to put words into your mouth. Are you saying the Apostles were unsaved prior to pentecost?

This question was not addressed to me, but I want to say categorically that justification is by grace through faith and is independent of what we are referring to here. Many great saints of God in the OT etc., did not know the blessings of the New Covenant, but were justified by faith and are 'saved'.
_________________

Absolutely Brother!!

Question: Do you also think they were born again??

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 12:17:55

Hi Coref,

Isn't that what we call being, "born again"? If we are correct in that then it only follows we become part of the Body of Christ __and this holds true that: ". . . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". Romans 8:9 (KJV)

I think this is ok by way of logical deduction, but I'm not convinced this is what happens biblically. We have several concepts we have to define. The first is 'regeneration'. The trouble with that word is that it is only used twice in the New Testament:
_____________________________

Because I believe a distinction can be made between the new birth by the Holy Spirit and initial salvation by one coming to Christ, doesn't mean I don't believe one is not saved unless born again. Therefore, when we read Him saying, "whosoever will let Him come unto Me", doesn't negate this in my thinking. However, I see being born again as being where Jesus does the choosing, not unlike He chose His Disciples. Having declared this to be what I believe, I see being born again as having a price for which one is told to count the cost. Why? Because that price is one's very life. If you consider this to be accurate thinking then the man-child mentioned in Rev 12 will make better sense to us. Thanks!

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RobertW

Hi Croref,

Question: Do you also think they were born again??

My understanding of the scriptures centers at the cross event and subsequent outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost. In other words, the New Covenant is an exceedingly better covenant established upon better promises than anything previous. This covenant was set in force, according to the writer to the Hebrews, after the death of the Testator (Christ). It could not be in play before.

So I view the born again experience (i.e. regeneration) the primary promise of the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:33 spoke of this covenant and elsewhere where God intended to give a heart of flesh and a new spirit. He wanted to make His abode in man (Isaiah 66:1ff). Everything in the Old Testament with all of it's revelation and types and shadows was moving towards Acts 2:1ff when God would make a glorious entrance INTO man. This is the great sermon of Stephan in Acts 7. God did not dwell in temples made with hands in the sense He wanted to dwell in man.

God has only ever occupied one Temple at a time while on earth. First the (1) tabernacle, (2) then Solomon's, (3) the Zerubbabel's (though we have no indication of the glory as previously), (3 and 1/2) Herods expansion of Zerubbabel's, (4) Jesus Christ and the temple of His body, (5) The Church corporate with its livings stones the people, that are individual 'temples' of the Holy Spirit.

God has been moving towards #5 all through history and it is my view that it is His perfect will; i.e. the regeneration (palengenesis) He has willed since the fall. If that makes sense.

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sermonindex

Not to complicate tbe discussion, which by the way is good. But was Abraham born again? I posted previously about reading in Romans. Tbe text says he believed God and it was credited or counted to him as righteousness.

For that matter were the O.T saints born again?

Bearnaster

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 13:53:50

[My understanding of the scriptures centers at the cross event and subsequent outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost. In other words, the New Covenant is an exceedingly better covenant established upon better promises than anything previous. This covenant was set in force, according to the writer to the Hebrews, after the death of the Testator (Christ). It could not be in play before.]

Which speaks of the new covenant being based upon redemption___the new basis of life for a totally new creation.

[So I view the born again experience (i.e. regeneration) the primary promise of the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:33 spoke of this covenant and elsewhere where God intended to give a heart of flesh and a new spirit.]

Was God giving a new heart to individual man or was it the nation of Israel He was alluding to? Under the circumstances mentioned, I think it was the latter otherwise there would be no mentioning by Peter, John & co. for the need of Christian's cleaning theirs up. I mean if God gave us a new heart should it not be expected that it be perfect toward Him? Thanks Robert!

C
Croref

by bearmaster on 2012/10/26 14:13:32

[Not to complicate tbe discussion, which by the way is good. But was Abraham born again? I posted previously about reading in Romans. Tbe text says he believed God and it was credited or counted to him as righteousness.

For that matter were the O.T saints born again?]

The new birth from above could not happen until after the death, burial, resurrection and glorification of Jesus. Unless I am mistaken, that is an absolute.

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sermonindex

Oookaay. So exactly how was one saved in tbe O.T. Are we making a distinction between faith and tbe new birth?

Bearnaster

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sermonindex

I guess tbe question in ny mind is if one like Abraham was saved by faith. Did he have to be born again? Could an O. T. saint be saved by faith and not be born again?

Bearmaster.

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RobertW

Hi Croref,

Let me answer this question in sections.

I mean if God gave us a new heart should it not be expected that it be perfect toward Him.

I would answer this way; the New Covenant provides for those that are 'in Christ' (having been baptized into Him by the Spirit) a new heart and spirit. Paul takes it a step farther and states, "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor. 2:16) God's own Holy Spirit comes in to take up residence so that the essential nature of the person is changed; the old heart of stone is removed and a new heart of flesh replaces it. (Ezekiel 36:26-27) The consequence of this is that Paul could state, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. " (Philippians 2:13) The characteristic of this person is that he/she is no longer a 'sinner' by nature but a 'saint' by nature. He/she may act uncharacteristically or against his/her new nature in an act of sin, but this is against his/her nature and does not mean the nature has changed.

We are new creatures but we are new human creatures. We still have human desires. Temptation is an appeal to the intellect to fulfill a good natural desire in a sinful way. This is where I see the trouble being. Some day the world will be free from sin and we will receive a new body that is 'spiritual', that is, it will be free from various characteristics and desires that are necessary for this present world. Procreative desire will not exist in the new spiritual body, for example.

So yes I believe God can make a sinner a saint by baptizing them into Christ and expect that that individual will have a heart that is right towards Him. We can walk together in agreement because we share the same essential moral nature as Christ.

Was God giving a new heart to individual man or was it the nation of Israel He was alluding to? Under the circumstances mentioned, I think it was the latter otherwise there would be no mentioning by Peter, John & co. for the need of Christian's cleaning theirs up.

I see the answer as God giving a new heart to individuals within the nation of Israel who had turned to the Lord so that the vail had been removed in their personal life. (2 Cor 3:16) Paul was such a person. I don't see the promises of God in the New Covenant as eschatological, but presently active. An entire generation of Jews moved in this reality as the first believers and born again Saints. Later the Gentiles were added, but not as an afterthought of God, but as His ultimate plan.

I see then the whole Body of Christ as the One New Man (Ephesians 2:15); where there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28) Non-Jews are made partakers of the promises through the New Covenant, as the plan of God 'in Christ' was from the foundation of the World. (Ephesians 1:4ff) Paul reminds us in Romans 2:29, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

In my view, the reason why the Saints have struggles that have to be dealt with is because we live in a sinful world that is vying for our affections. If Adam lived on earth today, having NOT fallen, he would still have to deal with the temptations we face. Why? Because they are designed to take advantage of human nature and good, natural, human desires. Jesus lived as an UNfallen man (the last Adam) and defeated sin in this present evil world. He is our example as to how to navigate this sinful world. If we are in Christ we are dead to sin- because He died to sin. He defeated the Devil when he came to tempt and taught us to live by every word that is proceeding from the mouth of God, not bread alone. This implies a close walk with God and a willingness to listen to and obey the Holy Spirit when He deals with us. Hope that helps explain my view. Blessings.

R
RobertW

We then have to define what we mean when we say 'have not the Spirit' in Romans 8. You will know that Jesus spoke of how the Disciples were given to Him of His Father (John 6:39,10:29, ed. 17:12, etc.); so they were 'His'. (John 17:12) What was their relationship to the Holy Spirit when they were 'His'? We have that in John 14:17, Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So we see then that they were His, having been given to Him of the Father in John 6:39, 10:29, etc.; but their relationship with the Holy Spirit was "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (14:17b)

I was hoping we could have discussed this point further, as this is only half of the answer in dealing with Romans 8.

It is my view that we have to distinguish justification by faith and genuine regeneration. The disciples were certainly Christ's and He lost none of them save the son of perdition, etc. But there is a greater sense that one can be Christ's and it is to be 'IN' Christ. The Disciples were followers, etc., but they were not yet made sons of God. This is important because God has determined to make man in His image and likeness. He has never left off that original design. So the Disciples were Christ's and I believe they were justified by faith, but God was taking them to a whole new level.

I'm going out on a limb here because WKIP (we know in part), but we are told that, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14) Paul is saying that the criteria for recognizing the 'sons of God', that is now possible through the indwelling Spirit, is that they are 'led of the Holy Spirit'. He is not suggesting potential or privilege, but reality and actuality.

In Romans 8:29, Paul is further saying that it is the actual indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that identifies someone as 'His' (Christ's). I see this as 'His' in the sense of redemption (justification) AND regeneration (sanctification). The Lord can look at the regenerate and say that we are His children by Spiritual birth. We are 'His' in the same way we are our earthly father's. We are not merely slaves that have been purchased with a price, but have been made sons. This brings to pass the saying in Hebrews 2:11-13:

For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying:
\t
“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
\tIn the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

And again:

\t“I will put My trust in Him.” And again:
\t“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

Hope that explains further. Blessings.


J
jimp

hi, this will be the 65th post on this matter. people are going to hell for lack of knowlege of the gospel as we sit and ponder this question that if we had the exact answer it would not change one thing in the world.we need to quit being so nitpicking about this or the end times or anything else that we have no control over and go knock on a neighbors door and offer friendship,love and the gospel and any help he or she might need that we could meet in Jesus name.jimp

C
Christinyou

rnieman wrote: Quote

"""by rnieman on 2012/10/26 9:14:16

Hi Phillip,

I don't want to put words into your mouth. Are you saying the Apostles were unsaved prior to pentecost?

Joel 2 is speaking of pentecost to come and the baptism of the HS, which we read came to pass in the book of Acts.

Russ"""

John 1:12-14 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

How did they receive Jesus?

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word (Logos)of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

What seed was born again in us, who was that Seed? The Logos, the devine expression of Jesus Christ.

John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

When the Light was with the apostles He could not be born again in them, the same with the Holy Spirit, as long as the Christ was with them the Comforter promised to be in them could not be.

He said He must go so the promised Comforter could come and be not just with them but in them. He, Jesus Christ will not leave us comfortless either, He will come again and be born again in those that have the faith of the Son of God to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God unto salvation. The spirit of satan our and the Spirit of the Son of God born again in us, NOW, we are the sons of God, by birth and the Spirit of Jesus Christ in us.

To answer your question; the apostles were saved as in the old testament, before Pentecost, but not saved as by birth and becoming the offspring of God our Father in the New Testament.

Acts 17:28-31 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Bringing the Holy Spirit with Him the apostles became the offspring of God by baptism into One Spirit, New Testament salvation. Paul fulfilling the Word of God.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

The Father's offspring by the incorruptable Seed of the Father in me, Jesus Christ, the Hope of Glory.

Phillip

C
Croref

I wrote:
I mean if God gave us a new heart should it not be expected that it be perfect toward Him. :unquote


Re:Reply To This Post |

Hi Croref,

Let me answer this question in sections.

Quote:
I would answer this way; the New Covenant provides for those that are 'in Christ' (having been baptized into Him by the Spirit) a new heart and spirit. Paul takes it a step farther and states, "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." (1 Cor. 2:16) God's own Holy Spirit comes in to take up residence so that the essential nature of the person is changed; the old heart of stone is removed and a new heart of flesh replaces it. (Ezekiel 36:26-27) The consequence of this is that Paul could state, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. " (Philippians 2:13) The characteristic of this person is that he/she is no longer a 'sinner' by nature but a 'saint' by nature. He/she may act uncharacteristically or against his/her new nature in an act of sin, but this is against his/her nature and does not mean the nature has changed.___:unquote

First of all there is much you say in this I fully agree with especially having to do with our "nature" either old and new. It is in this undertaking to understand I believe we must see it is not our "nature" we deal with but our flesh that makes its demands on our soul. 1. I don't believe our soul can deal with two natures. It is either one or the other, the old or the new but, not both. When there is confusion arises consider it being by "double mindedness". In capsule form: Our soul is the battleground. It is "US" and "to whom we yield ourselves, his servant we are". Ring a bell? James says nothing about any new heart here:

"Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain [soul] both yield salt water and fresh." James 3:12 (KJV)

Accompany that with what Paul writes:

"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." Romans 6:13 (KJV)

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Romans 6:16 (KJV)

"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." Romans 6:19 (KJV)

With that I believe we can see that the new birth is not any gift of a new heart but a new clean, pure, nature from above enabled by the Holy Spirit given and purposed to remain upright in Christ. As we as infants, learn the Father per John 17:3, in becoming His son is a, surety. This is no different than what the young Jesus' life was all about before He was sent into the world. Not only did He "know" what the issues were but was prepared to "love not His Life even unto death". Without such a vision imputed to us by seeking God with our whole "heart", we will be found weak from wanting. Consider the OT saints who were mighty in God without any of what I am referring to; with only a promise. Abraham had a heroic faith! And David? . . a man after God's own Heart!

Consider also the below passages that have it as redeemed, saved man receiving instructions as to what the issues are:

"Who gave himself for us, that he "might redeem" us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2:14 (KJV)

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and "purify your hearts", ye double minded." James 4:8 (KJV)

Question: Again, I ask does God not give that which is pure? Would He give less? Can He give less? Being God, obviously your answer must be, NO. Then why the necessity to make our hearts pure?

Peter wrote this, Speaking of Jesus:

"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times [for you],
Who by him [you] do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope [might] be in God.
Seeing [you] have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that [you] love one another with a [pure heart] fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives [in] and abides [with you] forever." 1 Peter 1:20-23 (KJV)

Can we see a love affair; an intimate relationship in that? Will He not give respond to us by the new birth of the Holy Spirit Who desires only to love Him from us? __As I write this I am convicted__


Quote:
We are new creatures but we are new human creatures. We still have human desires. Temptation is an appeal to the intellect to fulfill a good natural desire in a sinful way. :unquote

We deal with our flesh which the venue for sin to our soul, if we permit it. "Resist the devil and he will flee". Adam should have understood that a little better.

Quote:
This is where I see the trouble being. Some day the world will be free from sin and we will receive a new body that is 'spiritual', that is, it will be free from various characteristics and desires that are necessary for this present world. Procreative desire will not exist in the new spiritual body, for example.

So yes I believe God can make a sinner a saint by baptizing them into Christ and expect that that individual will have a heart that is right towards Him. We can walk together in agreement because we share the same essential moral nature as Christ. :unquote

Indeed, He can but not without the vision imputed to us we must preserve. From the KJV read Eph.1:1. Take note the insightful conjunctive: "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, AND to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)

What can we take from that except to see saints as students reaching for the complete substance of faithfulness in Christ. We are made white by the Blood of the Lamb and remain so by the continual washing of the water of the Word; the commandments and Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

I see then the whole Body of Christ as the One New Man (Ephesians 2:15); where there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28) Non-Jews are made partakers of the promises through the New Covenant, as the plan of God 'in Christ' was from the foundation of the World. (Ephesians 1:4ff) Paul reminds us in Romans 2:29, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. :unquote

I agree wholeheartedly and by that understanding we can see the [singular] man-child in Rev 12 as being that multi-membered Body.

Oh, BTW, If a new heart given by God, why the need to circumcise it? . . :0)

Thank you, Robert. I can't remember when I have enjoyed an exchange more than this one. You have made some good points.
I pray, as we see time running out, this one will be one of many that we might rid ourselves of the petty bickering and get serious with God for much needed adjustments to our pet doctrines..Thank you.

Lov'in Jesus,

Cross Reference

C
Croref

by jimp on 2012/10/26 22:07:12

hi, this will be the 65th post on this matter. people are going to hell for lack of knowlege of the gospel as we sit and ponder this question that if we had the exact answer it would not change one thing in the world.we need to quit being so nitpicking about this or the end times or anything else that we have no control over and go knock on a neighbors door and offer friendship,love and the gospel and any help he or she might need that we could meet in Jesus name.jimp :unquote

Unless we "are" before we "do" what good will "doing" be worth? If we go before being sent, will Jesus go with us?

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/26 17:17:05

We then have to define what we mean when we say 'have not the Spirit' in Romans 8. You will know that Jesus spoke of how the Disciples were given to Him of His Father (John 6:39,10:29, ed. 17:12, etc.); so they were 'His'. (John 17:12) What was their relationship to the Holy Spirit when they were 'His'? We have that in John 14:17, Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So we see then that they were His, having been given to Him of the Father in John 6:39, 10:29, etc.; but their relationship with the Holy Spirit was "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (14:17b)

The "IN' part being fulfilled in John 20:22!


I was hoping we could have discussed this point further, as this is only half of the answer in dealing with Romans 8.


Hope that explains further. Blessings.

Excellent Post!__All of it!

Question: What can we say must be the outward evidence of the new birth?

C
Croref

by bearmaster on 2012/10/26 14:57:22

I guess tbe question in ny mind is if one like Abraham was saved by faith. Did he have to be born again? Could an O. T. saint be saved by faith and not be born again?

I believe I have already stated one could not be born again before the death, resurrection and glorification of Jesus. cf John 20:22. Since I believe that to be accurate I leave you to consider the salvation of the OT saints who were not even redeemed. I hope you arrive at a satisfactory conclusion to the matter that you will share.

C
Croref

I highly recommend everyone read this book:
|

Excerpts from “The Ultimate Intention” (1) – by Devern Fromke

He wrote it back in the 60's. I taught from it in the 70's.

There are some more endorsements over in "General Topics" section.

“I believe the hour has come when God is initiating another major recovery. This time it is not just a truth, but the restoration of something so imperative that it will give the ultimate perspective to all truth.” (Preface, pg.9)

“Believers may not often realize it, but even as believers we are either centered in man, or centered in God. There is no alternative. Either God is the center of our universe and we have become rightly adjusted to Him, or we have made ourselves the center and are attempting to make all else orbit around us and for us. When the truth dawns, we are amazed to discover how the snare of making all things to revolve around man has been the bane of most of our preaching and teaching. This is true even of the area of teaching which is considered to be of the deeper life emphasis. As long as men are victims of this wrong philosophy and approach to truth, they cannot avoid reckoning from a self-center. When the center is wrong, then everything in our reckoning is wrong. It is my prayer that in these pages the reader will discover the lost coin of truth and be prepared to take what may seem like drastic measures in accepting a new center, where the whole conception of the Christian life is changed from man-consciousness to God-consciousness; from man as the center to God as the center from which all truth is seen. ” (Preface, pg.10)

C
Christinyou

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
John 20:22
      22. he breathed on them--a symbolical conveyance to them of the Spirit.
      and saith, Receive ye the Holy Ghost--an earnest and first-fruits of the more copious Pentecostal effusion.

If they received the fulness of the Holy Spirit in them forever at this time, why Pentecost? Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The Fourfold Gospel and Commentary on Acts
John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit. And as the New Testament is now sealed in his blood according to the commission under which he came, he, in turn, commissions the twelve to go forth and proclaim its provisions. Symbolic of the baptism which they were to receive at Pentecost, he breathes upon them.
(TFG 753)

A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures
John 20:22
He breathed on them (enephusêsen). First aorist active indicative of emphusaô, late verb, here only in N.T. though eleven times in the LXX and in the papyri. It was a symbolic art with the same word used in the LXX when God breathed the breath of life upon Adam (Ge 2:7). It occurs also in Eze 37:9. See Christ's promise in Joh 16:23. Jesus gives the disciples a foretaste of the great pentecost. Receive ye the Holy Ghost (labete pneuma hagion). Second aorist (ingressive) active imperative of lambanô. Note absence of article here (pneuma hagion) though to pneuma to hagion in Joh 14:26. No real distinction is to be observed, for Holy Spirit is treated as a proper name with or without the article.

John Wesley's Notes on the Bible
John 20:22
Verse 22. He breathed on them - New life and vigour, and saith, as ye receive this breath out of my mouth, so receive ye the Spirit out of my fulness: the Holy Ghost influencing you in a peculiar manner, to fit you for your great embassy. This was an earnest of pentecost.

Just a few.

In Christ: Phillip

C
Croref

Re: \tReply To This Post |

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
John 20:22
22. he breathed on them--a symbolical conveyance to them of the Spirit.
and saith, Receive ye the Holy Ghost--an earnest and first-fruits of the more copious Pentecostal effusion.

If they received the fulness of the Holy Spirit in them forever at this time, why Pentecost? Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. __and on and on:

If you truly want the conclusion to this matter all that is necessary is to look at the life of Jesus and perhaps ask the question why He needed to be baptized with/by the Holy Ghost before being sent into the world? Was He not already born "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit who abode "with" Him throughout 30 yrs of His life and then was "Clothed" with power when the Holy Spirit came "upon" Him. Why all this when we think of Him as being God? And did He not say that that which was in, with, and upon Him was purposed for those born again from above? Forthrightly considering this will more than suggest your submitted commentators to be wrong in their "opinions". They are so because their agenda is to first support their subjective biased doctrine[s]. For this the Church has suffered great loss.

S
sermonindex

QUOTE : Here is the passage: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12 (KJV)

"Receiving Him" is to explain John 20:22, doncha think? END OF QUOTE

Yes I think so.

He gives them power but there are things they must learn first. These things culminate in the experience of Romans 7 where the man understands fully the failure and uselessness of the flesh in serving God, even the best service he can give God. If it is not entirely under the control of the Spirit it is not acceptable and full delivery from the old nature is required so that the man can be perfect nor saved from sin - entire sanctification in other words.

J
jimp

dear cro,i have read and enjoyed your post for they are well writen andcome from a heart filled with God's Spirit. in my going; igo because i have been sent. as you go,or go into all the world ...Jesus said these are not my followers ... they said why... He said for I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat... whatever you do to the least of these;you do unto Me..in respect and love,jimp

R
RobertW

Ho CroRef,

You asked:

Oh, BTW, If a new heart given by God, why the need to circumcise it?

Circumcision of the heart and the topic of 'the flesh' and what exactly it is, have been discussed at great length here in the past, so I will only touch my understanding of it briefly.

Paul said plainly, But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. (Romans 8:9a). I see the flesh two different ways depending on whom is being spoken to. If I am speaking to the unregenerate, the word flesh means man's human nature spoiled by 'The Sin'. In my view 'The Sin' (Sin the dynamic as opposed to sin(s) the deeds) entered the world through Adam so that all that are 'IN' Adam share in His fallen human nature (Adamic nature). They that are 'IN' Adam are also walking according to the course of this world and the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 2). This person would be truly uncircumcised in heart and ears. This is the uncircumcision of their flesh.

When a person is baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit, were are taken out of Adam and are put 'IN' the Last Adam (Jesus Christ). So we are all either in the First Adam or the Last Adam. A person can be 'saved' (justified) and be in the First Adam, but they were not in the Kingdom of God. Not even John the Baptist was in the Kingdom of God. Why? Because the Kingdom of God is for those that are living out the reality of the New Covenant through the One Baptism in the Spirit.

Consider this reasoning:

John the Baptist knew he would not be part of the regeneration of believers while on earth. I'm referring again to palengenesis (παλιγγενεσίας) spoken of in Titus 3:5. How do we know he would not be a part of it? Watch the personal pronouns:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Matthew 3:11)

Notice what John the Baptist did NOT say. He did not say He will baptize 'us'; he said Jesus Christ will baptize 'you'. This is the great One Baptism in the Holy Spirit of Acts 2:1 that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 4:5. John never lived to see the Kingdom of God come on the earth (though He preached it) except as that Kingdom was revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. The Kingdom of God is God's absolute domain. Like Jesus as the Temple when He walked the earth, He was also the Kingdom of God. He was the ONLY person on earth at that time that lived by every word that was proceeding from the mouth of God. Everyone else in some measure fell short. Some disobeyed when God spoke and others didn't bother to even enquire of the Lord. Jesus said 'my meat is to go the will of Him that sent me'. This is the attitude of heart of those that are in the Kingdom of God. This is NON-Adamic nature. This is NON-flesh.

As a quick aside we have a definition of 'the flesh' given by Paul in Galatians 4:23, "...But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh." Ishmael is called a 'child of the flesh'. Why? Because Abraham refused to wait for the promise when it seemed to tarry and took matters into his own hands. His wife was the agent of temptation and he hearkened to her voice. To hearken to another voice (promise, revelation, vision, etc.) other than what God has said is to be moving in the flesh. Very simple. A sinner does not have the Spirit, but rather is moving in the spirit of disobedience (Ephesians 2); so all that they can ever do is 'in the flesh' because they are not living according to God's will but some OTHER will. The Law, the Priests and the Prophets were agents of the revelation of God's will. This is how God broke into this world with His Kingdom- by giving folk opportunity to submit to the King and Judge of all the earth.

Back to John Baptist-

John the Baptist was the greatest man that ever lived (save Jesus) prior to Pentecost. Yet we have these important words from Jesus, "but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." (Luke 7:28b) by implication John was NOT in the Kingdom of God. This Kingdom was proclaimed and was coming in the person of Jesus Christ. He was utterly submitted to God so that when He resisted the Devil in the wilderness, etc., the Devil fled from Him. Jesus also cast the devils out of many people. John the Baptist was martyred before he could undergo the One Baptism that he preached about. All the baptisms to this point in the OT, including John's Baptism of Repentance- were pointing to Paul's ONE Baptism. This is the archetype baptism. Not baptism in water, but baptism into the one body of Jesus Christ by the Spirit.

Jesus said that there was none greater born of women than John the Baptist; that is to say none that had only been born of the flesh (John 3). But the least in the Kingdom of God was going to be greater than John. Why? Because the people that would live under the New Covenant, in the Kingdom of God, 'IN Christ', would coem into that experience by the One great Baptism Paul preached in Ephesians 4. All other baptisms and the revelation they provide us with throughout the Old Testament point to this 'One Baptism' that John Baptist and Paul spoke of. I cannot possibly over emphasize this truth. Everything down through history has been moving to that one great epic reality.

Circumcised IN Christ

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:10-12)

Everything that Christ accomplished on the Cross, including dying to Sin itself, is appropriated to us that are baptized by the Spirit INTO Him. IF any man be in Christ he/she is a New Creature. The flesh is circumcised from our heart. This is why Paul could say emphatically, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Romans 8:9)

So we see then, that we have to get INTO Christ and STAY in Christ in order to enjoy all of the benefits that are made possible IN Him. If a person reverts back to their former manor of life and becomes carnal or 'double-minded' then they we need to come back to Christ in repentance and faith. In the words of Jesus to Ephesus, "repent and do the FIRST works." The first works are the works they did at first as outlined in Acts 19. If we build again the things we destroyed we make ourselves transgressors, etc.

No matter how great a work God does in man he/she can still choose to rebel. We are not given a circumcised new heart and a new spirit in such a way that we become automoton, but are to take the whole armout of God and the many admonishions in the N.T. in order to be victorious in this present evil world. The problem that ised to be 'within' is now, for those that are in Christ, 'without'. The temptations are external. We have 'learned from Christ' (Ephesians 2:20-21) how to live. Sorry so long. Blessings.

R
rnieman

Hi Phillip,

In a previous post you quoted the following in regards to Peter and Pentecost
“Mt 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mt 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
Mt 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.”

Then you stated:
“To answer your question; the apostles were saved as in the old testament, before Pentecost, but not saved as by birth and becoming the offspring of God our Father in the New Testament.”

I guess my question is where in your opinion did Peter stand before and after Pentecost? What did Pentecost do for Peter?

Blessings,
Russ

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 5:22:42


When a person is baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit, were are taken out of Adam and are put 'IN' the Last Adam (Jesus Christ). So we are all either in the First Adam or the Last Adam. A person can be 'saved' (justified) and be in the First Adam, but they were not in the Kingdom of God. Not even John the Baptist was in the Kingdom of God.

I fully agree!

Why? Because the Kingdom of God is for those that are living out the reality of the New Covenant through the One Baptism in the Spirit.

Perhaps since they must first see it upon being born again. Some never do to miss out on a perspective with a vision purposed to not only sustain but assist in "knowing" God. "The kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent [of the born again who see it] take it by force". It is the "pearl of great price" thing.

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 5:22:42

Ho CroRef,

You asked:

Oh, BTW, If a new heart given by God, why the need to circumcise it?

Circumcision of the heart and the topic of 'the flesh' and what exactly it is, have been discussed at great length here in the past, so I will only touch my understanding of it briefly.

Personally I don't see anyone receiving a new heart for the purpose of believing God nor one that needs circumcised for the same reason__circumcision being a spiritual reckoning for overcoming our flesh for establishing a singleness of eye __given the scriptures I have already submitted.

You have written much that by saying all you have I am still not sure where you stand on the issue of baptism[s]

Here is where I am:

Assuming salvation:

!. We are reconciled by Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Assuming the New birth that can be at the same time:

2. He then is the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit that enables for ministry.

1 and 2 both carry with them the responsibility to faithfulness for what is expected. I see 1. as me choosing Jesus while 2. is Jesus choosing me because of what He sees in my heart, to have the confidence I will follow through [even eventually] to knowing Him as He desires. Having established myself in the new birth, do I believe for His Baptism?? Other way of asking the same question: Do I love Him that intimacy with Him is paramount in my heart? If it is then the Baptism of Jesus Christ per Acts 2 will be a certainty. I know this to be true, which is my answer.

Consider this passage still being experienced by many and for the reasons stated the which Paul spoke of as elementary truths:

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing:. . . . ." Isaiah 28:9-12 (KJV) cf Heb. 6:1,2.

Check out Act 19:1-7 in this light as well acts 18:24-26 to see this is what was happening.

Thanks, Robert.

S
sermonindex

A person can be 'saved' (justified) and be in the First Adam, but they were not in the Kingdom of God. Not even John the Baptist was in the Kingdom of God. Why? Because the Kingdom of God is for those that are living out the reality of the New Covenant through the One Baptism in the Spirit.
Brother Robert thank you for bringing this out. This is exactly how I was trying to write this in a recent pre-post that never made it to print. I had a long post written up only to find myself wondering how to marry the person who is justified freely by grace through faith and that same person who does not go further and receive the One Baptism. How they can be saved without being born again by the One Baptism and the, "if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His".

Since you seem to have knowledge and I see that you do the same thing that I have to do and "go out on a limb", the Lord has given you wisdom on this matter, I would like for you to expound further that I may fully grasp what is happening to the folk that are Justified without being in the Kingdom or without the One Baptism. I believe this subject has been buried over and very few know (including myself) how the redemption project works in the believer who believes in the Gospel but yet does not receive the promise of the One Baptism.

Give yourself time to feel out the Spirit before answering if needed.

L
Lysa

Croref wrote:
Does that mean it shouldn't be discussed that one's thinking might be adjusted?

I just happened across this thread and saw your question! So being nine pages into it (I’ve not read past page 1), I’ll humbly say the following...

“Shouldn't it be discussed?” Yes and no, just be on the lookout b/c there are some people on SI that hold their own opinion in very high esteem and are very protective of “it” and will fight to the bitter end (whatever means necessary) to protect said opinion instead of just agreeing to disagree; but you've been here since 2008, so you must know this! :) :)

God bless you brother!!
Lisa

C
Croref


"The Two covenants" by Andrew Murray. A great read with much insight:


http://www.jesus.org.uk/vault/library/murray_two_covenants.pdf

R
RobertW

Hi Approved,

I would like for you to expound further that I may fully grasp what is happening to the folk that are Justified without being in the Kingdom or without the One Baptism.

I had wanted to answer this question yesterday as I could see it was coming up. It usually follows that we would have to deal with those that lived in the Old Testament, given that Jesus said 'you must be born again' (John 3:3). What about the thief on the cross and others that may come to Christ in faith, but never move into the fullness of Christ. Do we have an example in the book of Acts? I think we do.

In Acts 19 and 20 we have an account of the birth of the church at Ephesus. Tracing the church at Ephesus from its birth to Revelation 2 and beyond was the subject of my new book, "The Love You Had At First" (available on Amazon for those interested). It was a pagan city that had a synagogue in place as a 'light' in the midst of the darkness. Apollos came preaching in the synagogue the message of John the Baptist. It was all he knew. We then discover that there are disciples also at Ephesus that have a near identical experience as Apollos (he later gains a full understanding). It is my view that these disciples were probably the result of Apollos' preaching. They were baptized with John's baptism.

Paul arrives at Ephesus and asks these disciples a question; "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" (Acts 19:2a NKJV) Notice that Paul does not 'tell' them that they received the Holy Spirit when they believed, but he 'asks' them if they received when they believed. Paul does not believe receiving the Spirit is determined by a process of logical deductions drawn from proof texts as we find pervasive in modern Evangelicalism. He wants to know, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed.” The evidence Paul is looking for is personal testimony based on conscious reality. They had already believed and confessed, but had not received. It is my view that these disciples were NOT in the Kingdom of God 'yet'. They were justified by faith and were in some sense disciples, but Paul senses something about them and asks them this great question.

Hypothetically speaking if one of them were to die before they received the Spirit they would still be 'saved' (justified), because our standing with God is not based upon sanctification, but upon the finished work of the Cross. As we may reasonably assume, there is ample reason to believe that their faith was genuine; and yet they had not 'consciously' received the Holy Spirit. If anyone should know it is the person, so Paul asks them and assumes he will get an answer. They said that they had not as much as heard that there by any Holy Spirit. The sequence then follows from Acts 19:4-6.

Notice that these folks did not argue with Paul. As soon as they heard that God had something (someone) for them that they had not yet received, they were on it. There was a hunger to do God's will and be all that He wanted them to be. This is evidence of genuine repentance. Now we are back to Acts 7 and Stephen's sermon again. Stephen told the people that God did not desire to dwell in temples made with hands, but wanted to live IN man (Isaiah 66:1ff). But there was a problem; though God wanted to come INTO man, men do always resist the Holy Spirit. They don't want the absolute Lordship of Christ, for Him to reign in them as He reigned in the Wilderness Tabernacle or in Solomon's Temple or in the Heavenly Temple for that matter. Christ is not just our Great High Priest that secures forgiveness of sins, He is also the King of Kings. This is that which was after the order of Melchezidek. He is King/Priest IN those that are baptized into Him. Many people want a priest, but the don't want a king, but they are One Lord. He cannot cease to be King as He operates as our Great High Priest, etc.

So it is my present understanding that if a person has not received the Spirit it is either because they don’t have that revelation yet or they are resisting Him. It is a simple thing to say but answers a myriad of questions; you simply cannot receive the High Priest and resist the King at the same time. The Ephesian disciples wanted all that God wanted for them and they went right through with God, without a fuss. Why did it take as long as it did for the Ephesians? They answered, "No, we have not heard that there is a Holy Spirit." They did not have essential revelation. This tells us that the message they received did not include the portion where John the Baptist told the people that Jesus Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with Fire (Matt. 3:11). Perhaps it was because of the obscurity of the prophecy?

Who could have expounded on what baptized with the “Holy Ghost and with Fire” actually was before they witnessed it for themselves on the day of Pentecost? It was the Glorification of Solomon's Temple all over again- except God did not come into a Cedar and Gold Building, but into the Temple of Men. They were utterly glorified! God came into them to reign. They became members of the Kingdom of God on earth. From that day forward was the potential for men and women to do God's will on earth as it is done in Heaven. This is why Paul made such radical statements about being dead to the world and the world being dead to him, etc. It is hard to fathom the level of Spirituality these men were moving in; but it's what God wants for all of us if we will just stop resisting. Sometimes the order of the steps in the process are mixed around, but there has to be a willingness to obey God.

So what about those that died and were not born again? My present understanding is based on a passage in Hebrews 12:23,... To the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect. Notice that last portion, "the spirits of just men made perfect." These men and women saw te promise afar off and embraced it and declared plainly that they were strangers and pilgrims in the earth. Why? Because they sought a city that had foundations, whose builder and maker was God. (Hebrews 11:10) They refused to be mindful of that place from which they came out, lest they had been tempted to return. But they sought a Heavenly city where God was not ashamed to be called their God. These all died in faith, seeing the promises afar off. They, in my view, upon entrance into their reward are (were) 'made perfect'. Blessings.

R
RobertW

Hi CoRef,

Personally I don't see anyone receiving a new heart for the purpose of believing God nor one that needs circumcised for the same reason__circumcision being a spiritual reckoning for overcoming our flesh for establishing a singleness of eye __given the scriptures I have already submitted.

I think we are in agreement here. I see salvation as by grace through faith. When I say 'faith' I mean right response to God when He reveals His will to us. I do not believe that a person needs to be born again to exercise faith. God speaks and we are enabled by the grace encapsulated in His word, to believe.

You have written much that by saying all you have I am still not sure where you stand on the issue of baptism[s]

Here is where I am:

Assuming salvation:

!. We are reconciled by Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Assuming the New birth that can be at the same time:

2. He then is the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit that enables for ministry.

1 and 2 both carry with them the responsibility to faithfulness for what is expected. I see 1. as me choosing Jesus while 2. is Jesus choosing me because of what He sees in my heart, to have the confidence I will follow through [even eventually] to knowing Him as He desires. Having established myself in the new birth, do I believe for His Baptism?? Other way of asking the same question: Do I love Him that intimacy with Him is paramount in my heart? If it is then the Baptism of Jesus Christ per Acts 2 will be a certainty. I know this to be true, which is my answer.

I think we see this very much the same way. For me, as a neo-Pentecostal, I don't quite tow the party line of main stream Pentecostalism. I believe that Baptism in the Holy Spirit takes a person out of Adam and places them INTO Christ and with all comes ALL of the benefits of the New Covenant. Unlike many pentecostal brethren, I think the experience is much more than power for ministry. I believe it is the great experience that turned Saul into Paul and a timid cursing fisherman like Peter, into the great Apostle that moved in the reality of Christ in the book of Acts. This means I believe that there could very well be people that have had the experience of Baptism in the Holy Spirit, but yet they do not move in any of the gifts (prophecy, tongues, etc.) because of how they understand the scriptures as it relates to those things. In other words, they 'can' and have that capacity, but for reasons known only to God, they do not. There are far too many people that have served God in great power for them to have not been baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. I do on the other hands believe tongues to be somewhat normative in Acts and definitely there was a prophetic element to thoase that had been Baptized into Christ by the Spirit.

On the other hand, I have seen people 'speak in tongues' and yet they did not move in the reality of the New Covenant. So I think the primary proof that one is IN Christ is that they are led by the Spirit and yield the Fruit of the Spirit- primarily Love. (Romans 5:5) If I don't see the fruit of the Spirit in a persons life I'm not interested in their prophesies, tongues, etc. Now that I've gotten way out on the limb... Blessings.

R
RobertW

"The Two covenants" by Andrew Murray. A great read with much insight:

This is a great read. I would also recommend a book by a dear brother that used to contribute a lot in these forums, Ron Bailey (philologos). http://www.amazon.com/The-Better-Covenant-ebook/dp/B0077RR14C

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 8:35:40


Hi again Robert!

Bottom line: The new birth notwithstanding, what is required for "complete" salvation an understanding of the scriptures give us that is made effective on either side of the cross?

Hint: Romans 5:1.

R
RobertW

Hi Croref,

Bottom line: The new birth notwithstanding, what is required for "complete" salvation an understanding of the scriptures give us that is made effective on either side of the cross?

Agreed. Justification is by grace through faith. Always has been and always will be. blessings.

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 9:30:32

Hi Croref,

Bottom line: The new birth notwithstanding, what is required for "complete" salvation an understanding of the scriptures give us that is made effective on either side of the cross?

Agreed. Justification is by grace through faith. Always has been and always will be. blessings.

But justification without the shed blood of Jesus is short of salvation. Without the Blood the Justified would have remained separated from God, held captive by death.. Paradise would still be in use. That is what I see from Rom.5:1.

R
RobertW

Hi Coref,

But justification without the shed blood of Jesus is short of salvation. Without the Blood the Justified would have remained separated from God, held captive by death.. Paradise would still be in use. That is what I see from Rom.5:1.

I heard an illustration concerning propitiation and the Blood of Christ that I have found useful. A man takes his 5 children to the Zoo and the ticket taker allows the first three through without a ticket. Why? Because they saw dad coming with the money in his hand. In like fashion, the saints of old were saved by the blood of Christ just as the saints today, because for the OT saints the price paid to remove the offence was coming.

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 9:54:48

Hi Coref,

But justification without the shed blood of Jesus is short of salvation. Without the Blood the Justified would have remained separated from God, held captive by death.. Paradise would still be in use. That is what I see from Rom.5:1.

I heard an illustration concerning propitiation and the Blood of Christ that I have found useful. A man takes his 5 children to the Zoo and the ticket taker allows the first three through without a ticket. Why? Because they saw dad coming with the money in his hand. In like fashion, the saints of old were saved by the blood of Christ just as the saints today, because for the OT saints the price paid to remove the offence was coming.

If they had been saved they, when they died, would have been admitted directly into the presence of God. Jesus would have not have had to descend into the grave to set them free..

S
sermonindex

Dear brother Robert,
Thank you for your wonderful post. This was the kind of detailed response that I was originally seeking when I started this conversation. I was specifically wanting clarity on the apostles as well as the Ephesus disciples.

Forgive me if I am wrong brother, but are you suggesting that the Ephesus disciples were not born again, until Paul laid his hands on them, and it was then that they received the indwelling Holy Spirit and became born again?

This was in fact my original question, so you have given a wonderful response. However, I am leaning towards the alternate view to what actually happened when they met Paul..

Paul arrives at Ephesus and asks these disciples a question; "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" (Acts 19:2a NKJV) Notice that Paul does not 'tell' them that they received the Holy Spirit when they believed, but he 'asks' them if they received when they believed.

Again, I see here that you are assuming that Paul is asking them if they were in fact "born again" of the Spirit. If Paul was in fact asking them this, then of course he would not tell them that they had already received (become born again) because how would he know, how would anyone know, except the Spirit Himself?

But what if Paul was simply asking them if they had received the Holy Spirit, as in the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit"? This would make a lot more sense to me, and is making a lot more sense, the more I am studying this topic of being born again and then in addition to this, receiving a second blessing, the "baptism of the Holy Spirit".

It seems if you are saying that Paul was asking them to articulate the "science" behind them becoming born again? If that is the case, I do not agree.

Hypothetically speaking if one of them were to die before they received the Spirit they would still be 'saved' (justified), because our standing with God is not based upon sanctification, but upon the finished work of the Cross. As we may reasonably assume, there is ample reason to believe that their faith was genuine; and yet they had not 'consciously' received the Holy Spirit. If anyone should know it is the person, so Paul asks them and assumes he will get an answer. They said that they had not as much as heard that there by any Holy Spirit.

Your quote above suggests again that you do in fact believe these guys were NOT born again before Paul met them. Again, I offer the alternate view that they were in fact already saved, born again, had the Spirit, but because they had never even heard that there was such a person as the Holy Spirit, they did not know or have any doctrinal explanation of the new birth, and certainly had no understanding of the baptism in the Holy Spirit as manifested on the day of Pentecost.

It seems more probably that they had been already been reborn, had a new heart but did not know the exact "science" of how this had taken place. So when Paul meets them he sees evidence of their faith but is now asking them if had they had received the "enduement of power from on high", the overflow of the Holy Spirit...the "out of your innermost being will flow RIVERS of living water...this he spoke of the Holy Spirit " experience.

This brings me to three critical points.

I believe that it is possible for them or ANYONE for that matter to be born again, born of the Holy Spirit and not have an understanding or a theological knowledge of who the Holy Spirit actually is. It is the Holy Spirit who enlightens us, He is the one who brings us to a conviction of sin, to urge us to repent of our sins and to believe on Christ to be saved. According to Jesus's explanation in John 3, they seem to have fulfilled the conditions for the Holy Spirit to bring them to new birth? Or am I missing something?

Secondly, is much like the first point above...do we need an explanation of who the Spirit is, before He can work in our heart? If we take the view that Paul was leading them into the new birth but FIRST had to explain who the Spirit was, that He actually exists, then we reduce His work down to a very natural level. They did not need to know and neither does anyone need to know that the Holy Spirit even exists before that same person is born again by the agency of the Holy Spirit.

Thirdly, if it was only possible for the Ephesus believers to become born again (receive the Holy Spirit) by the laying on of Paul's or another Apostles hands, how is then that any of us are born again...I certainly never had anyone lay his hands on me when I received the Holy Spirit.

So in conclusion, I would suggest that these believers were already born again by the Spirit, that their hearts were already changed, that they were in fact already children of God, "Sons of God" and had the indwelling Christ by the agency of the Holy Spirit? Much the same way Paul describes it here. "He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." 2 Cor 1:22. But, they did not have the fullness of the Spirit yet and Paul found that out. Paul prayed for them and they then received the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" in the same manner that the 120 disciples did on the day of Pentecost.

To be perfectly honest with you, I did not understand this passage before I initiated this thread, but because of the multitude of responses and my own study, I believe I have a better understanding now. I hope this post above helps others who are likewise searching for answers.

In Christ,
Mark

R
RobertW

Hi Croref,

If they had been saved they, when they died, would have been admitted directly into the presence of God. Jesus would have not have had to descend into the grave to set them free.

Probably a better word would have been 'justified' rather than 'saved'. And I do agree that 'Abraham's Bosom' (Paradise) was relocated to Heaven through the effectual working of the cross. Jesus told the thief "you will be with me in Paradise" and Paul said later, "I was caught 'up' unto Paradise". This word 'Paradise' (παραδείσῳ) is found in the LXX in Genesis 2:8 and rendered 'the garden' (of Eden). Traditionally, this was the good department of Hades where the heirs to the righteousness of God that is by faith await the resurrection. this is why I to associate Paradise with Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22-23). Blessings.

R
RobertW

Hi Awakened, (edited)

Forgive me if I am wrong brother, but are you suggesting that the Ephesus disciples were not born again, until Paul laid his hands on them, and it was then that they received the indwelling Holy Spirit and became born again?

When I think of being born again, I am thinking of palengenesis that I believe is defined primarily by the fact that Jesus Christ is stitting on the throne of a person heart. We then have to ask ourselves, if Paul said there is really only 'One' Baptism, why did he say this and at what point did this Baptism take place in the life of the Disciples? We are moving in tall corn here, and a great many things become very uncomfortable to consider. But if we want to walk in what the New Testament believers walked in and not something lesser, then I think we have to trace carefully exactly what their experience was.

The coming of the Spirit was at Pentecost. For me, this is the great Baptism in the Holy Spirit and Fire that John the Baptist spoke of and is also what Paul referred to when he stated that we are all baptized into one body by the Spirit. To me, this is how we get 'IN' to Jesus Christ and it is by Spirit baptism. I am keeping my eye closely on Ephesians 4:5 so that I don't make two baptisms; i.e. one in John 20:22 and one in Acts 2:1ff. If Paul is right in saying that there is really only ONE Baptism, just as though their be gods many there is only ONE God, then I have to ask myself where to find this ONE Baptism Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 4:5. For me, the sheer magnitude of the event points to Acts 2:1ff.

Paul takes this up in Galatians 3:14, That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. So we see then that the promise of the Spirit is in view as the great promise the Gentiles were to partake of. In Acts 19, Paul is simply asking these people if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. I don't think he wants a scientific answer, but an experiencial answer. Maybe I would word it this way, "Do you recall when God came in to you?" "Did God (the Holy Spirit) come IN to you when you believed?" They had already believed and were already justified, but now Paul is wanting them to be baptized by one Spirit into the one Body of Christ. He wants them to have what John Baptist spoke of.

When we are Baptized into Christ God appropriates to us everything that Christ achieved on the cross in terms of His victory over Sin. Unlike the first Adam that failed and we had to suffer under the burden of his history, being in Christ (the last Adam) by baptism into His Body, we are made potentially as Christlike and godly as we were potentially sinful and devilish under old Adam. The New Creature is one that is IN Christ. I know of no other way to get INTO Christ than by baptism into His one Body. To me Jesus said it, For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (Acts 1:5) This is post John 20:22 and in my view is the promise that God had been wanting to send all along- that He might by the Spirit take whosoever will out of Adam and put them INTO Christ. This is the greatest event in the history of mankind in my view. Hope that helps. Blessings.

S
sermonindex

Hi brother Robert,
I think you were directing your answer at me (Mark) and not Approved?

At any rate, I am not debating the use of the word Baptism, in fact I agree with Zac Poonen when he states that the King James version incorrectly uses the word baptism, in respect to the "baptism of the Holy Spirit".

The better understanding of Pentecost, according to Poonen is that the disciples received the "immersion under the under Spirit".

Explained this way there is no issue with "one baptism", and we can agree on Ephesians 4. I don't have the link off hand but there is a wonderful sermon given by brother Zac explaining the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

To my larger point though, I think I have come to the understanding at this point in my life that I can be born again of the Holy Spirit but still not experience the fullness of the Spirits life in me but that can happen once I am "immersed in the Holy Spirit", as a separate distinct, and ongoing experience to salvation (being born again).

And therefore I believe that the Ephesus disciples were born again but received the "immersion of the Holy Spirit" when Paul prayed for them.

Do you brother Robert hold to this same view? Which also seems to be the view of many of the preachers on this site (Wilkerson, Ravenhill, Conlon, Poonen, Reidhead etc), that there is to be had for the born again believer a separate, distinct, secondary experience often referred to as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", but we can call this the "immersion of the Holy Spirit".

Would you mind clarifying that point, as this will help me understand a lot of your previous writings. Thanks brother.

In Christ,
Mark

R
RobertW

Hi Awakened,

Sorry about the misaddress earlier to Approved.

Do you brother Robert hold to this same view? Which also seems to be the view of many of the preachers on this site (Wilkerson, Ravenhill, Conlon, Poonen, Reidhead etc), that there is to be had for the born again believer a separate, distinct, secondary experience often referred to as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit", but we can call this the "immersion of the Holy Spirit".

Would you mind clarifying that point, as this will help me understand a lot of your previous writings. Thanks brother.

My view would probably be similar, but not exactly the same (although there are variations among these men as well). I believe that all Believers, past, present and future are 'justified' and have peace with God though the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. This, to me, is the 'first blessing' and everyone that is an heir to the righteousness that is of God by faith has this blessing.

A second blessing, in my understanding, is everything else God has promised in the New Covenant in Christ. It is the means by which we can be made partakers of the Divine Nature. The trouble with explaining my view is that there are so many assumptions and theologies that strive against what I'm trying to explain. It takes an almost fresh look at the New Testament to see it. For the longest time I came down on the traditional lines of Classical Pentecostals or Second Blessing Holiness, but giving it persistent thought and study I have come to a view, by way of comparison more in line with men like G.W. North.

There is a book he has written that is now out of print (though possibly available used) called 'One Baptism'. Several years ago I read the old book and it started me to thinking a little differently about these great things. For those interested it is here for free:
http://www.newtestamentpattern.net/biblestudy/onebaptism/the-end-of-all-flesh.htm

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 10:26:36

Hi Croref,



Probably a better word would have been 'justified' rather than 'saved'. And I do agree that 'Abraham's Bosom' (Paradise) was relocated to Heaven through the effectual working of the cross. Jesus told the thief "you will be with me in Paradise" and Paul said later, "I was caught 'up' unto Paradise". This word 'Paradise' (παραδείσῳ) is found in the LXX in Genesis 2:8 and rendered 'the garden' (of Eden). Traditionally, this was the good department of Hades where the heirs to the righteousness of God that is by faith await the resurrection. this is why I to associate Paradise with Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22-23). Blessings.

Exactly!! We are on the same page. Thank you.

C
Croref


Bro. Robert

The coming of the Spirit was at Pentecost. For me, this is the great Baptism in the Holy Spirit and Fire that John the Baptist spoke of and is also what Paul referred to when he stated that we are all baptized into one body by the Spirit. To me, this is how we get 'IN' to Jesus Christ and it is by Spirit baptism. I am keeping my eye closely on Ephesians 4:5 so that I don't make two baptisms; i.e. one in John 20:22 and one in Acts 2:1ff. If Paul is right in saying that there is really only ONE Baptism, just as though their be gods many there is only ONE God, then I have to ask myself where to find this ONE Baptism Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 4:5. For me, the sheer magnitude of the event points to Acts 2:1ff.

The Baptism of Jesus Christ,, spoken of by JTB, is not for baptizing anyone into the body of Christ. It is a for the enduement for power to function in ministry as Jesus functioned. One knows he has received something when it is experienced, cf Acts 19:1-7. We both know that by confession and faith [lived out] gifts one salvation. Being born again places him in the Body of Christ. This, Jesus lived out for thirty years before He was baptized with the Holy spirit. Then it was He was driven into the wilderness to be tested__not until then.

Why think of our experience should be any different than that if indeed we believe that is what Jesus' experience was?

H
Heydave

I have really enjoyed following this thread. Some great posts and points put across with a good attitude to one another. This is what this forum should be like!

Robert/ I appreciated your explanation on how you see the difference between justification and regeneration. I have recenty read Ron Bailey's book (The New Covenant) and it seemed he was alluding to this, but did not explain it. I was going to ask him, but I think you have answed my question, as I'm sure you see it pretty much the same way.

So are you saying there are two class of believers? Those who are Justified and have their sins forgiven and then those who are justified AND have been regenerated by receiving the Holy Spirit and are baptised into Christ? This would mean the first group are not in Christ.

This seems to contradict a number of scripture. e.g Romans 8:9 says that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, is not His (Christ's) and 1 John 5:11-12 "And this is the testimony that God has given us, eternal life, and this life is in His Son. v.12 He who has the son has life, he who does not have the son of God does not have life". It seems clear here that if you don't have the Spirit, you don't have the Son and if you don't have the Son, you don't have eternal life. So how can some one be justified and have eternal life (be saved) without having the Spirit ot the Son?

I am very sceptical about there being believers who are 'saved', but not 'in Christ' or in the body of Christ
I would say if there are 'so called belivers' (maybe better to say professors) that are not in Christ, that they are also not justified and are lost and in need of salvation.

BTW -Ron's book is very good!

S
sermonindex

We are moving in tall corn here, and a great many things become very uncomfortable to consider.
Agreed. I am truly grateful as to the answers that God has enabled you to understand and to share them unto us. This is not a time to be offended because of one's upbringing and the way we have been taught, but like the Ephesians, they wanted what Paul was talking about. They didn't argue doctrine, they soaked up what Paul was instructing them to do and they received it with open arms.

Another thing that I can't stand hearing is the downgrading of the Holy Spirit as something that is secondary for the purpose of power. Yet this is the very power that changes us. The One Baptism IS the new birth experience, it's not secondary, it's paramount.

Jesus speaking to Peter saying, But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:32

"When you are converted", Peter was not yet converted, this conversion comes at Pentecost.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

"Times of refreshing" is the One Baptism to which we are baptized into Christ, hence, He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

S
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Hi brother Robert,

My view would probably be similar, but not exactly the same (although there are variations among these men as well).

From what I can tell all these men hold to the same view that the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is a separate and distinct experience to being saved/born again under the new covenant. There are differences as to what they believe to be the initial evidence (tongues) but that is a side issue. To contrast the other view, those such as John MacArthur (whom I respect deeply) hold to the view that there is no separate and distinct "experience" called the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and would say that at conversion, when we are born again under the new covenant we receive the Holy Spirit and thats the end of it. I disagree with MacArthur on this.

In Him,
Mark

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Coref said:

We both know that by confession and faith [lived out] gifts one salvation. Being born again places him in the Body of Christ.
What Robert and what is rightly being divided here and what your sharing is not the same thing.

Before I totally misunderstand what was said, perhaps you can clarify it so we(at least I) can see where your going with this.

Thanks

S
sermonindex

Before I totally misunderstand what was said, perhaps you can clarify it so we(at least I) can see where your going with this.

Approved, who are you addressing, me? If so please be clearer in asking your question...what exactly do you want clarified?

In Him,
Mark

S
sermonindex

So are you saying there are two class of believers? Those who are Justified and have their sins forgiven and then those who are justified AND have been regenerated by receiving the Holy Spirit and are baptised into Christ? This would mean the first group are not in Christ.
Good question and my thoughts are with you brother on this issue. It's something that we all need to rectify in our thinking so there is absolutely no doubts on the matter. When I read this I thought of a verse that came to mind and I will share it here.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise...

I am merely touching on this brother, perhaps the brother may have more understanding on the subject will expand this further. But sufficient to say, these OT saints had faith even though they did not receive the promise of the Holy Ghost. They were certainly saved being justified by faith even though they had not the Holy Spirit.

New questions arise but I am going to leave off until these other questions are dealt with.

S
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Hey Mark, I was referring to Coref's post, I added the distinction. :o)

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sermonindex

Here is a commentary on Acts 19 from brother Zac Poonen that addresses this passage. Scroll to the 30min mark to find the appropriate place.

http://www.cfcindia.com/vbvaudio/Acts/10_Acts_17-24_19-22.mp3

Zac states that what happens in this passage is that the Ephesus disciples were "baptized in the Holy Spirit" after Paul laid hand on them, in the same manner that the other disciples were "baptized in the Holy Spirit" on the day of Pentecost.

Where am I going with this? My initial quest was to come to a clearer understanding of when and how the disciples and then these other Ephesus believers were saved/born again.

Out of that quest has come clarity (to me at least) that all of these then were already saved/born again, and that at Pentecost as well as when Paul prayed for the Ephesians, these already saved/born again individuals were then "baptized with the Holy Spirit", or endued with the power of the Holy Spirit. It was a second blessing and in addition to the first blessing of them being born again.

That is the conclusion of the matter (for me)...it has been profitable and if others want to continue the discussion please feel free.

In Him,
Mark

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Hey Mark, I was referring to Coref's post, I added the distinction. :o)

No worries brother, but I am glad you asked the question in general at first "where are you going with this" as it helped me bring my own thoughts to a conclusion.

Wow, what a blessing this community is, what a blessing that we can have such an uplifting, Christ honoring discussion about doctrine and not resort to arguing or name calling. May we have many more like it!!!

Blessings,
Mark

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Indeed Mark.

I am not as near to coming to a conclusion on the matter, though I have much understanding from the Spirit of God, but to bring them in union with everything else requires that I submit to the Teacher that is teaching me through another. Usually the Lord expounds His word to me, but this season I believe that He wants me to listen to Him in His people. This has come at rare moments but I feel this is one of those times as what is being expressed is a confirmation that has been told me from the Holy Ghost, I just didn't know how to bring it altogether.

Bless you!

R
RobertW

Hi Croref,

The Baptism of Jesus Christ,, spoken of by JTB, is not for baptizing anyone into the body of Christ.

I have heard this said many times in Pentecostal circles, but I have never seen a scriptural justification for it. It is usually a matter of logical deduction. It is typically said to be 'power for service'. But this strains Ephesians 4:5 by making a seperate baptism 'into' the Body to go with 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'. Paul says there is really just One Baptism. By that, it would appear he means, there is the One Baptism that all others point to. This would be an archetype baptism. It would further seem, that the greatest of all baptisms would be saved as the finale. Blessings.

R
RobertW

Hi HeyDave,

So are you saying there are two class of believers? Those who are Justified and have their sins forgiven and then those who are justified AND have been regenerated by receiving the Holy Spirit and are baptised into Christ? This would mean the first group are not in Christ.

This seems to contradict a number of scripture. e.g Romans 8:9 says that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, is not His (Christ's) and 1 John 5:11-12 "And this is the testimony that God has given us, eternal life, and this life is in His Son. v.12 He who has the son has life, he who does not have the son of God does not have life". It seems clear here that if you don't have the Spirit, you don't have the Son and if you don't have the Son, you don't have eternal life. So how can some one be justified and have eternal life (be saved) without having the Spirit ot the Son?

The way I reckon with this at this point in my understanding is that there are varying ways that a person can be Christ's. When the Disciples had not yet received the Spirit they were still Christ's because the Father had given them to Him. You will know that Jesus spoke of how the Disciples were given to Him of His Father (John 6:39,10:29, ed. 17:12, etc.); so they were 'His'. (John 17:12) What was their relationship to the Holy Spirit when they were 'His'? We have that in John 14:17, Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So we see then that they were His, having been given to Him of the Father in John 6:39, 10:29, etc.; but their relationship with the Holy Spirit was "ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (14:17b) This is three things:

1. ye know Him
2. He dwelleth with you
3. He shall be in you

By implication, the Spirit was not in them at this time, but they are still Christ's. Having been born again, we are NOW the sons of God, that is to say, we are 'His' in the same way we are our earthly father's. We are not merely slaves that have been purchased with a price, or friends as Jesus called the disciples, but have been made SONS. This brings to pass the saying in Hebrews 2:11-13:

For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.” And again:
“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

If I were to own a person as my slave as happened in the 1st Century often, I could say that the person is 'mine'. Why? They belong to me and I own them by some means. But it would be a totally different thing for that slave to be supernaturally transformed into one of my biological sons. I could then say he was 'mine' in a way that is totally beyond what he was as a mere purchased possession. WKIP (we know in part).

Hope that explains further. Blessings.

H
Heydave

re-Approved. Quote:Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise...

"I am merely touching on this brother, perhaps the brother may have more understanding on the subject will expand this further. But sufficient to say, these OT saints had faith even though they did not receive the promise of the Holy Ghost. They were certainly saved being justified by faith even though they had not the Holy Spirit."


Yes I agree with you on this that the OT saints and all pe-calvary believers would have been justfied by faith and saved, yet not regenerated. However I think post-calvary all those who believe receive by faith the indwelling Spirit and are baptised into Christ, not only justified. As has been quoted " the least in the Kingdom of God is greater than 'the greatest' (JTB) under the OT law.

R
RobertW

Hi Heydave,

Yes I agree with you on this that the OT saints and all pe-calvary believers would have been justfied by faith and saved, yet not regenerated. However I think post-calvary all those who believe receive by faith the indwelling Spirit and are baptised into Christ, not only justified. As has been quoted " the least in the Kingdom of God is greater than 'the greatest' (JTB) under the OT law.

I think we have a great deal of agreement here. The only question I have if we take the position that a person is baptized into Christ by the Spirit upon confession and faith, etc., where can we see this happening in scripture as an event? Not just that we assume it had to have happened because a person has repented and believed, etc. This would bring about a radical change in a person if it happened. So it would seem to me to be an event that a person would never forget. If that makes sense. Blessings.

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 14:33:00

Hi Croref,

The Baptism of Jesus Christ,, spoken of by JTB, is not for baptizing anyone into the body of Christ.

I have heard this said many times in Pentecostal circles, but I have never seen a scriptural justification for it. It is usually a matter of logical deduction. It is typically said to be 'power for service'. But this strains Ephesians 4:5 by making a seperate baptism 'into' the Body to go with 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'. Paul says there is really just One Baptism. By that, it would appear he means, there is the One Baptism that all others point to. This would be an archetype baptism. It would further seem, that the greatest of all baptisms would be saved as the finale. Blessings.

Considering Heb. 6:1,2, how 'bout we conclude that by context, all baptism[s] spoken of at various times can be, in essence, summed up as being of the ONE baptism that unites one in Christ, the Pentecostal baptism excepted because Jesus does the baptizing? [Interesting here that Jesus baptized from Paul [Acts 19] by the laying on of his hands and Apollos in Acts 18: 24-26, while it does not say but could very well have been as the house of Cornelius]


???

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 14:56:14

Hi Heydave,


I think we have a great deal of agreement here. The only question I have if we take the position that a person is baptized into Christ by the Spirit upon confession and faith, etc., where can we see this happening in scripture as an event? Not just that we assume it had to have happened because a person has repented and believed, etc. This would bring about a radical change in a person if it happened. So it would seem to me to be an event that a person would never forget. If that makes sense. Blessings.


It does to me, Brother. There will be a fresh love affair with God that isn't there is the "nominal" Christian. How can I say that is because only the Holy Spirit has His focus of love on God and He is in the new born of Him who will express it through His flesh.

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 14:33:00

Hi Croref,

The Baptism of Jesus Christ,, spoken of by JTB, is not for baptizing anyone into the body of Christ.

I have heard this said many times in Pentecostal circles, but I have never seen a scriptural justification for it. It is usually a matter of logical deduction. It is typically said to be 'power for service'. But this strains Ephesians 4:5 by making a seperate baptism 'into' the Body to go with 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'. Paul says there is really just One Baptism. By that, it would appear he means, there is the One Baptism that all others point to. This would be an archetype baptism. It would further seem, that the greatest of all baptisms would be saved as the finale. Blessings.

I believe we must let the scriptures say what they say in this matter. Jesus is the baptizer of the Holy Ghost JTB spoke of. Ya gotta remember that Jesus was even baptized by this same Holy Ghost BEFORE He started His ministry_this after having been conceived by Him and then abode with Him before the "coming upon" for ministry on the day at the river. The scriptures are quite clear on this enough so to make it an absolute upon which all else is established.

S
sermonindex

Robert said:

Not just that we assume it had to have happened because a person has repented and believed, etc. This would bring about a radical change in a person if it happened. So it would seem to me to be an event that a person would never forget.
A good example of this is when Philip went down into Samaria and preached Christ unto them. They heard the word, they saw the miracles etc.., but lets see how the scriptures show us the difference.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

Notice verse 16

Three things were happening regarding the Holy Ghost.

1. ye know Him (The Samaritans believed in Jesus)

2. He dwelleth with you (The Kingdom of God was near luke11:20)

3. He shall be in you (Peter and John came down to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit)

Verse 18 shows that Simon 'saw' something going on through the laying of hands that caused him to offer money. If it was a quiet infilling, why would anyone offer money, unless they wanted to see the same results?


R
RobertW

Considering Heb. 6:1,2, how 'bout we conclude that by context, all baptism[s] spoken of at various times can be, in essence, summed up as being of the ONE baptism that unites one in Christ, the Pentecostal baptism excepted because Jesus does the baptizing? [Interesting here that Jesus baptized from Paul [Acts 19] by the laying on of his hands and Apollos in Acts 18: 24-26, while it does not say but could very well have been as the house of Cornelius]


???

I have heard it said that the reason why the disciples at Ephesus had to be rebaptized was because they were likely baptized with the Baptism of John by Apollos and that that baptism was no longer valid. It had reached it's 'sell by date', so they had to be rebaptized. I think this is true.

When I think of Baptism in the Spirit in Acts 2:1ff I am gathering up everything in the OT I can possibly think of that relates to baptism(s) in order to see all of the significance of that great event. Bible words don't have definitions as much as they have histories. So we have to start with the first occurence of the concept of baptism and work our way through the bible building revelation into that word.

For example, in 2 Kings 5:14 we read, "Then went he (Naaman) down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean." In the LXX the passage is rendered καὶ κατέβη Ναιμαν καὶ ἐβαπτίσατο ἐν τῷ Ιορδάνῃ. Here we have the Greek word ἐβαπτίσατο (ebaptizo). When Naaman went through his baptism he coould have came out of the water and said, "The former things have passed away and behold all is become new."

So when I think of baptism, I am thinking of an experience a person can come into where they are so radically changed, that it would be as the Syrian leader and soldier who was no doubt scarred and wrinkled- having his skin transformed into a little childs. This makes me think palengenesis or a return to ancestral characteristics.

I also think of Noah that was saved by water. (1 Peter 3;20-21) As the waters came down- he was distanced from the world and it was judged at the same time. When the door came down on the boat he could walk out and say, "The former things have passed away and behold all is become new."

I think of Moses as the Children of israel were Baptized into him in the cloud and in the sea. What happened? They looked back and Pharaoh (a type of Satan) and his army (a type of his devils) were all face down in the water. There was a flood of waters between them and Egypt (a type of this evil world) as they were being baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They could look behind them and say, "The former things have passed away and behold all is become new."

So when I think of 'baptism in the Spirit' I am pouring these and many others revelations that God has built into the concept in the event. Baptism into Christ by the Spirit will effect such change. "The former things have passed away and behold all is become new." This means a person has become a new creature and is utterly radically changed. They are now sons of God in such a way that Christ would not be ashamed to call them brethren. Hope that helps clear things up on my end. Blessings.

S
sermonindex

Robert, your words are not falling on deaf ears. Press on Brother it's getting clearer and clearer.

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/10/27 15:14:31

Notice verse 16

Three things were happening regarding the Holy Ghost.

1. ye know Him (The Samaritans believed in Jesus)

2. He dwelleth with you (The Kingdom of God was near luke11:20)

3. He shall be in you (Peter and John came down to lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit)

"He shall be in you" was fulfilled in John 20:22. It was NOT a baptism but the first indwelling anyone had ever experienced. Take note that is was not a faith venture for the disciples I believe because of Jesus' prior relationship with when they learned Him for 3 1/2 years. With everyone else after the ascension it was by faith and was just the beginning of their learning process of Jesus and the Father for "bringing them unto Glory".


S
sermonindex

"He shall be in you" was fulfilled in John 20:22
Then where is our "Breathing on experience"?

Forgive me brother, but I cannot hinge our belief system on one verse. The book of Acts is shouting at us how the salvation process works. Out of the mouth of two or three witness shall every word be established and in the multitude of counselors there is safety. (proverbs11:14, 2Corinthians 13:1)

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 15:19:37

Considering Heb. 6:1,2, how 'bout we conclude that by context, all baptism[s] spoken of at various times can be, in essence, summed up as being of the ONE baptism that unites one in Christ, the Pentecostal baptism excepted because Jesus does the baptizing? [Interesting here that Jesus baptized from Paul [Acts 19] by the laying on of his hands and Apollos in Acts 18: 24-26, while it does not say but could very well have been as the house of Cornelius]


???

I have heard it said that the reason why the disciples at Ephesus had to be rebaptized was because they were likely baptized with the Baptism of John by Apollos and that that baptism was no longer valid. It had reached it's 'sell by date', so they had to be rebaptized. I think this is true.

But why anyone think John's water baptism__for the remission of sins, would be made obsolete, isn't it still being performed today? Paul didn't minimize it when inquiring of the Acts 19 disciples but rather informed them there was now more for them for their Christian walk.

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/10/27 15:38:18

"He shall be in you" was fulfilled in John 20:22
Then where is our "Breathing on experience"?

Forgive me brother, but I cannot hinge our belief system on one verse. The book of Acts is shouting at us how the salvation process works. Out of the mouth of two or three witness shall every word be established and in the multitude of counselors there is safety. (proverbs11:14, 2Corinthians 13:1)

Did I not say that for everyone after the ascension [I should have made say after that initial one because it isn't recorded where Jesus ever did that again] was the new birth by faith__and the beginning of what we are given to learn Jesus?

The salvation shouted at us from Acts is nothing more than Believe and be water baptized. Everything else is for something else. Is there more to it than that you can point to?

R
RobertW

Hi Croref,

But why anyone think John's water baptism__for the remission of sins, would be made obsolete, isn't it still being performed today? Paul didn't minimize it when inquiring of the Acts 19 disciples but rather informed them there was now more for them for their Christian walk.

It is sometimes brought up because the Ephesians had to be RE-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Others who had been baptized while the Baptism of John was still in play were not baptized again in the name of the Lord Jesus, etc. as far as we know.

Repentance is indeed Paul's message. In fact, it was a message very similar to John Baptist's all during his ministry. But he baptized, not as would John Baptist merely unto repentance, but in the name of the Lord, etc.

Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. (Acts 26;19-20)

S
sermonindex

The salvation shouted at us from Acts is nothing more than Believe and be water baptized. Everything else is for something else. Is there more to it than that you can point to?
Yes there is.

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

In verse 16 is the believing and the water baptism.

But in verse 15, the Holy Ghost "Breathing on them", born again experience had not yet occurred.

If the "Breathing on them" is the receiving of the Holy Spirit and being born again, and they became believers and were baptized in water (according to your logic they are born again because the breathing on them is the born again experience), what is this other Holy Ghost that Peter and John is offering through the laying on of hands?

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/10/27 15:59:11

The salvation shouted at us from Acts is nothing more than Believe and be water baptized. Everything else is for something else. Is there more to it than that you can point to?
Yes there is.

Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

In verse 16 is the believing and the water baptism.

Not for salvation or born again


But in verse 15, the Holy Ghost "Breathing on them", born again experience had not yet occurred.

Not speaking of new birth but the Pentecostal baptism.


C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/27 15:53:25

Hi Croref,

But why anyone think John's water baptism__for the remission of sins, would be made obsolete, isn't it still being performed today? Paul didn't minimize it when inquiring of the Acts 19 disciples but rather informed them there was now more for them for their Christian walk.

It is sometimes brought up because the Ephesians had to be RE-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Others who had been baptized while the Baptism of John was still in play were not baptized again in the name of the Lord Jesus, etc. as far as we know.

Ah, OK! I forgot that passage. Interesting though that that was the venue [Name of Jesus] through which the Pentecostal baptism was imparted.

M
murrcolr

Quote: My view would probably be similar, but not exactly the same (although there are variations among these men as well). I believe that all Believers, past, present and future are 'justified' and have peace with God though the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. This, to me, is the 'first blessing' and everyone that is an heir to the righteousness that is of God by faith has this blessing.

Quote: A second blessing, in my understanding, is everything else God has promised in the New Covenant in Christ. It is the means by which we can be made partakers of the Divine Nature.

Thank you I am glad to find I am not alone...

G
ginnyrose

Ok, this is a doctrinal discussion, one I usually do not comment on since I think this like a woman playing football with the males..

Anyhow.

My initial reaction upon reading the question, and one that still remains is this: why does this question challenge a body? When a person becomes saved is God's business, not ours. If a body is walking with Him, let him take care of it - we have enough challenges to deal with without trying to figure out something that belongs to God's realm of judgement.

My opinion. Now I will bow out.

S
sermonindex

My initial reaction upon reading the question, and one that still remains is this: why does this question challenge a body? When a person becomes saved is God's business, not ours. If a body is walking with Him, let him take care of it - we have enough challenges to deal with without trying to figure out something that belongs to God's realm of judgment.
It's most important Ginny, because Paul is still asking the question, "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?"

If it was important to him to ask it then, we need to ask it again.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

If being born again comes by the One Baptism to which Paul speaks of, than why do we have a teaching out there that says that by saying the sinners prayer that one is automatically baptized into the Spirit?

Or words are added to the scriptures calling the Promise of God the Holy Ghost as a second blessing. "Second Blessing", where is that in the scriptures?

The lie has to be uncovered and exposed.

S
sermonindex

Approved I want to be clear that I understand you before I say anything else. Are you saying that the belief that the Immersion in the Holy Spirit (notice i didnt use the KJV word baptism)...that this experience as a second and distinct experience to conversion/salvation/born again...is a lie? And needs to be exposed? Is that what you are saying?

M
murrcolr

Quote: Or words are added to the scriptures calling the Promise of God the Holy Ghost as a second blessing. "Second Blessing", where is that in the scriptures?

The Second Blessing is not in a text; it is in the whole Bible. The multiplicity of proof bewilders in the presence of one who cannot see it.

Quote by Samuel Chadwick

R
RobertW

I want to be careful that we maintain a good and charitable spirit in these great subjects. "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." (Romans 14:5b) We have laid out our best understandings and we have to arrive at our own conclusions. WKIP (we know in part). I am more than happy to share fellowship with dear brothers and sisters that may see things quite differently. Blessings.

S
sermonindex

Hi brother Robert,
STOP!!! I see your hand hovering over the lock button...resist....step away...lol:) I think this whole discussion has been nothing but good and charitable, but it is assumed that we will all have different views on certain things. I personally just want clarification from brothers when they make certain statements so that I do not mis-understand them.

I am not offended by a brother who holds a different view to me in the slightest and I too would have wonderful fellowship with anyone on this forum, regardless of how we differ. In fact I already do:)

In Christ,
Mark

C
Christinyou

"""I guess my question is where in your opinion did Peter stand before and after Pentecost? What did Pentecost do for Peter? """

Peter was with the physical Jesus and walked with Him in fellowship and at table and under His teaching, slept in the same house, ate from the same table etc. for three and a half years. With Him not in Peter and Peter not in Him Aftr pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit of Promise, He was baptized into Peter, and would be with Him forever rebirthed a new creature, by the incorruptable Seed of the Father, satans spirit out and the Spirit of Christ and His life rebirthed in Peter, seated in the Heavenlies in Christ Jesus. Christ in you the hope of glory. Peter according to Paul also had a new life he lived by the Faith of the Son of God that was birthed in him. Christ liveth in Peter and me.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 6:4-6 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 8:9-14 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:11-14 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

This is just a small excerpt of the Grace amd Faith that was given to Peter after Pentecost, absolutely the greatest thing God can do for His offspring who are now the sons and daughters of God, making us full heirs of Christ to the Fathers Kingdom and House that Jesus the Carpenter is preparing for us and will come and draw us unto Himself and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What is the greatest thing? Birthing His own Son in us that we now have the Spirit of Christ and the Mind of Christ and the Life of Christ by which we live and move and have our being. By the Power of the Holy Spirit who lives in us forever, if we want to know anything about Christ, even the things we don't know we should know He will teach us forever.


In Christ: Phillip

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by Christinyou on 2012/10/28 0:54:56

"""I guess my question is where in your opinion did Peter stand before and after Pentecost? What did Pentecost do for Peter? """

Peter was with the physical Jesus and walked with Him in fellowship and at table and under His teaching, slept in the same house, ate from the same table etc. for three and a half years. With Him not in Peter and Peter not in Him Aftr pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit of Promise, He was baptized into Peter, and would be with Him forever rebirthed a new creature, by the incorruptable Seed of the Father, satans spirit out and the Spirit of Christ and His life rebirthed in Peter, seated in the Heavenlies in Christ Jesus. Christ in you the hope of glory. Peter according to Paul also had a new life he lived by the Faith of the Son of God that was birthed in him. Christ liveth in Peter and me.

Again, and if this isn't made straight to everyone's thinking before moving on in learning what eternal life is, the "dots" won't get connected. There will remain gaping holes in our understanding:

There are but three manifestations of the Holy Spirit. All of them are summed up in Jesus Christ and His relationship with the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit__"and these three are One". Eternal life is about knowing this and to be able to appropriate it. If you don't agree or struggle with it then think on the reason "why" rather then saying "That it is wrong!" 9 times outta 10 it will be because, "That's what I have always been taught" or my commentary sez this or that and my favorite [biased] author agrees. It is not rocket science and, for the most part, prejudicial religion will prevent one from accepting it as written but, if you are open and truly want to know/learn the scriptures then this can be an excellent starting point Paul uses time and again:

Jesus said this when with the Disciples:

"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells "WITH" you, and shall be "IN" you." John 14:17 (KJV)

They are the first manifestations that Jesus speaks of referring to the 'flesh of Himself' and as being the '"Word" from Heaven'.

This what His speaks of, is the same as He personally experienced from His birth___All one has to do to is recall His conception and His "grooming" for His "coming out day" when JTB baptized Him in water signifying His fulfilling all righteousness that did not not apply to Him but was performed that we have an outward pathway of commitment to Him__that is taken much too lightly in our teaching of it.

Now, we that we see He was WITH them, when would He-when could He be IN them could not have taken place until after His resurrection and presentation of Himself to Father:

"Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, JESUS BREATHED ON THEM, AND SAID, "RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT": Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. John 20:19-23 (KJV)

[Couple of things here: 1. Note that is was the 1st day of the week-Sunday- new day, new beginnings, and 2. They received the ability to forgive sins as part of "receiving the Holy Spirit"]

Moving on:

Jesus later re-appears to them and has this discourse:

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them.
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

THEN HE OPENED THEIR UNDERSTANDING, THAT THEY MIGHT UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things.

And, BEHOLD I SEND THE PROMISE OF MY FATHER ""UPON"" YOU but TARRY in the city of Jerusalem, [do not not leave Jerusalem] UNTIL YOU ARE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Luke 24:39-49 (KJV) __" And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. Luke 24:50-51 (KJV)

Acts 1, a bit of a repeat/clarification of the command of Jesus from Luke 24:

"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

For JOHN TRULY BAPTIZED WITH WATER, BUT YOU SHALL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST; NOT MANY DAYS HENCE. . . .
. . . . .
But YOU SHALL RECEIVE POWER, after that the Holy Ghost is come "UPON" you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:4-9 (KJV)

So there we have:

1. "with"
2. "IN"
3. "Upon"

Can it be more clear than that that we can't see or is it we don't want to?

The Disciples were redeemed, saved, water baptized, born again, and then Baptized by Jesus with the same baptism[s] He was baptized.

Though the pattern is different for us to today because of faith that was not needed then, Jesus being in their midst to actually perform it all, the substance is the same that is purposed to lead us, by faith, to the same conclusion, i.e., oneness in the Father as Jesus experienced Him.

When one is born again he assumes the same responsibility. "Let him who builds the house, count the cost".


I truly hope this is a help to someone objective in their learning processes.__maybe even to someone who isn't.

I won't go back over this territory again. So I guess I am finished to let Peter, Paul and John deal the details. . ))


S
sermonindex

There are but three manifestations of the Holy Spirit. All of them are summed up in Jesus Christ and His relationship with the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit__"and these three are One". Eternal life is about knowing this and to be able to appropriate it. If you don't agree or struggle with it then think on the reason "why" rather then saying "That it is wrong!" 9 times outta 10 it will be because, "That's what I have always been taught" or my commentary sez this or that and my favorite [biased] author agrees. It is not rocket science and, for the most part, prejudicial religion will prevent one from accepting it as written but, if you are open and truly want to know/learn the scriptures then this can be an excellent starting point Paul uses time and again:

Perhaps some people are none of these things and know the truth and are born again simply because they believed God. Perhaps some have seen Christ physically and know the truth concerning who He is for this reason. Perhaps others are simply taught of The Holy Spirit as is promised.

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by amrkelly on 2012/10/28 4:46:19


Perhaps some people are none of these things and know the truth and are born again simply because they believed God. Perhaps some have seen Christ physically and know the truth concerning who He is for this reason. Perhaps others are simply taught of The Holy Spirit as is promised.

Thanks amrkelly! I don't see from scriptures where being born again is needed for "initial" or "elementary" salvation. Do you? I see it as being needed for intimacy in Christ, in the Father. What say you?

R
RobertW

As a little aside in this great subject we have an interesting cirstance that easily gets unnoticed in Acts 19. We have the Ephesians that had been baptized in water according to John's Baptism (presumably by Apollos), baptized again in water in the name of the Lord Jesus by Paul, and then they were baptized in the Spirit like unto what the people experienced in Acts 2. Now, some would add this up as 3 baptisms. But Paul said that there is only One Baptism (Ephesians 4:5). So which one was it?


C
Croref

Robert,

In context, because of "insight', they are all AS one. Why? Because the Pentecostal baptism was considered by Paul as the "Norm" for all Christians, not the exception. His writings declare that fact. He expected nothing less as evidence than the Acts 2 evidence. That was his "plumbline" for ascertaining anyone received the "coming upon" of the Holy Spirit.

R
RobertW

I found an article that was published here on sermonindex a number of years ago. It is quite long, but well worth taking time to work through. Blessings.

OLD THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY AND ALL HAS BECOME NEW
Ron Bailey
First published on the sermonindex.net forums

In his introduction Ron writes, "In this study we will try to build 'from the ground' up, rather than reacting to contemporary views or definitions of the 'Baptism in the Holy Spirit'. Suppose you were in a closed country with no access to denominational or historical sources. Your only source is the scripture which you 'search diligently' to know what Christ expects of you and what you may expect of Him; this is my attempt to answer the last half of that search."

This study covers:

1. The Old Testament's Hidden Baptisms
2. The Flood
3. The Crossing of the Red Sea
4. Naaman's Baptism
5. Isaiah's Baptism
6. Ezekiel's Baptism
7. The Jewish Baptism of Proselytes
8. John Baptist's Testimony
9. The forgotten baptism
10. New Testament use of the word
11. What really happened at Cornelius' place

The Old Testament's Hidden Baptisms

First we will trace the idea of baptism from the Old Testament. Did you know that there are 5 hidden baptisms in the Old Testament?

The Flood

Peter tells us that the word baptism has a 'type'. A type is a template; it is something defines a shape. In Romans Paul says Adam was a 'type' of Him who was to come. There is something about the 'shape' of Adam which is repeated in the accomplishments of Christ. It is not the reality but the shape; 'the print of the nails' that Judas wanted to explore is the word 'type'. He would see the shape in the wound. The scriptures also refer to 'shadows'; For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh. (Heb 10:1 ASV) Types and shadows have the same characteristics; they give the outward shape of the thing, but they are not the things itself. They have no colour, no texture, no details, no life. But even so they can be useful as a starting point.
who sometime disbelieved, when once the long­suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah­­an ark being preparing­­in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; also to which an antitype doth now save us­­baptism, (not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the question of a good conscience in regard to God,) through the rising again of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 3:20­21 YLT) The antitype is the reality of which the type was just the outline. This long introduction is to say that according to Peter Noah's Flood was a 'type' of baptism. So although Noah's Flood was historical fact it was also a revelation of something that would come later. It was a picture of baptism.
Please forget everything you ever knew about 'baptism' and let's start from scratch. If Noah's Flood was the only definition of 'baptism' what would we think about. If your church were to announce a service of Believer's Flood what would you think about? If your denomination says it believes in the Flood of the Holy Spirit would that open up some new lines of thought? Go on, test the idea. If I said tell me what Noah's Flood/Baptism was all about what would be the first thought that entered your head. I suggest the first thought would be 'judgement'. Noah's Flood/Baptism was a death sentence on sinners. The corruption of sin was brought to a standstill by God's action. The old world was buried in water. It also had another effect. Every drop of water had the effect of lifting Noah higher. So the judgement of God on sin actually separated Noah from the sin that God was judging. It brought a whole creation to an end and started again with a new family. I sometimes wonder if Noah took off the covers and said to Mrs Noah, 'old things have passed away, behold, all things are become new'?

What can we learn then from the Bible' first baptism? Baptism is judgement on sin. Baptism is separation from sin. Baptism is the end of the old and the beginning of the new. Remember God is beginning to build a sense of what He means by baptism. Whenever He uses the word 'baptism' in the future we must remember that this is His first 'definition' of baptism.

The Crossing of the Red Sea

I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. (1Co 10:1­4 ESV)

Who would have guessed that the events of the Passover and the Crossing of the Red Sea were really a baptism? These prepositions are fascinating too. 'in' the cloud and 'in' the sea have the word 'en' meaning 'in' (or in an instrumental sense.. by) The medium 'in' which they were all baptised was 'the cloud and the sea'. It doesn't say who the Baptizer was, although it was plainly God Himself, but it does have this phrase 'into Moses'. This is the preposition 'eis' meaning 'into' or 'towards'. This preposition is frequently used in the sense of destination and shows the destination of this baptism. The purpose of this baptism is to put the people 'into Moses'.

This is a wonderful facet of truth that we would never have seen if Paul had not used this amazing phrase of being 'baptised into Moses, in the cloud and in the sea.' Let's see if we can do a similar exercise to the one on Noah's Baptism. If we were to ask questions about the Crossing of the Red Sea, what would our answers be? What are the main truths captured in this story?
In fact, there are surprising similarities to Noah's Baptism. This was God's final judgement upon the Egyptians; this was a death sentence on the sinners. The destructive power of the Egyptians was brought to a standstill by this event. Their old master was brought to death in the cloud and the sea. The cloud first separated Israel from the Egyptians and then the closing waters of the Red Sea sealed their fate. The baptism that ended the destructive power sealed their borders and left Israel on one side and their past on the other. So the judgement of God on sin actually separated Israel from the sin that God was judging. It brought a whole creation to an end and started again with a new family. I sometimes wonder if Moses paused on the other side of the water and said, 'old things have passed away, behold, all things are become new'? (I cut and pasted that from the last study!)

There is something else about this baptism that we could have mentioned in Noah's Baptism; this baptism united the destiny of a people with the destiny of the Covenant holder. Let me explain. If we had studied the story of Noah we would have discovered that God's covenant was with him personally, and others benefited as a result of their right relationship with Noah. They were united with Noah as a result of Noah's Baptism. Now a similar thing is seen in the story of Moses' Baptism; the people are identified with and united to Moses. Their destinies have become inseparable. This baptism has joined them to Moses. So we are beginning to see a pattern in these hidden baptisms.

1. Judgement on Sin/Our Enemy
2. Separation from Sin/Our Enemy
3. A decisive end of the old
4. A solid beginning of the new
5. A union with the the Covenant Holder

Do we dare to begin to ask the question 'if this is what the word "baptism" means, how does this fit in to a definition of 'baptism in the Spirit'? The word 'baptism' can't signify one thing consistently in the types and another in the reality. Hold the question, we have two more hidden OT baptisms to consider.

Naaman's Baptism

As with many words used in the New Testament the word 'baptism' was not new. The Hebrew Bible had been translated into Greek somewhere around 250BC (the Greek LXX (Septuagint c 260 BC) was the bible used by the early Christians, and when NT quotations differ from their OT original it is usually because the quotations are from the LXX. This doesn't mean that the Greek LXX is to be preferred to the Hebrew behind our bibles. It means that in the times quoted there is truth visible in the Greek LXX which was not obvious in the Hebrew) For the Jews of the 1st century AD Greek was their everyday language, particularly in the area of Galilee where most of Jesus' disciples had their homes. These men knew the LXX better than the Hebrew text, and Greek OT used the word 'baptize' on at least three occasions.

The first instance was in a vivid story. The ASV translating from the Hebrew text has; Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God; and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean. (2Ki 5:14 ASV) But the disciples had grown up with a text which, in the Greek said;2 Kings 5:14 So Naiman went down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the word of Elisaie: and his flesh returned to him as the flesh of a little child, and he was cleansed. (LXX Eng Trans) where the word 'dipped' is ' βαπτσατο' ­ baptized.

Perhaps this is a good time to say more about the Greek words to explain what they mean.
There are several associated words:

baptO means to dip, and sometimes 'to wash by dipping'
baptizO means to submerge, and which should not be confused with baptO.

The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. #Mr 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptised shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! (Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989). (the cooks will see immediately the distinction is between 'blanching' and 'marinading'.)

Naaman, then, marinaded/submerged himself seven times. Seven in the scripture is a number which often indicates perfection, thoroughness or completion. There could be no doubt about Naaman's 'baptism'. I think we can safely presume that the miracle took place not gradually but instantly as Naaman emerged from his seventh submerging. The consequence was that the battle scars and leprous scars of this gnarled old warrior were instantly gone and his his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.. Remember that the ideas associated with baptism are perculating down into the nation's memory of what is involved in baptism. Naaman became 'new and clean'. Naaman's personal history recorded in his scars was gone, completely.

We can see some ideas here which link with the earlier 'hidden baptisms'. This marked the end of the old and the beginning of the new. It is linked this time not with judgement but with cleansing. If we continue our speculation we might imagine Naaman saying 'old things have passed away, all things have become new.' This is the first Bible 'baptism' where the candidate got wet!! Noah and family and Moses and the Israelites were kept completely dry during their baptisms.

There is something else that this baptism effected. Naaman became an adherant of Jehovah. He was a changed man in more ways than his skin. This 'flesh as a little child' effect may have had future impact upon Jewish baptism as we shall see later. This links baptism with conversion and 'new birth'.
This is slow work and I hope you don't mind that, but it will be important to understand what the word 'baptism' means before we try to understand what 'baptism in the Spirit' means.

Isaiah's Baptism

Another portion of scripture which has 'bapizO' in the Septuagint is in Isaiah; Therefore are my loins filled with anguish; pangs have taken hold upon me, as the pangs of a woman in travail: I am pained so that I cannot hear; I am dismayed so that I cannot see. My heart fluttereth, horror hath affrighted me; the twilight that I desired hath been turned into trembling unto me. (Isa 21:3­4 ASV) For the word 'affrighted' the Septuagint has κα νομ αμεβαπτ ζει horror baptized me.

The Greek word 'baptizO' is the word that classical authors used to describe a ship lost at sea; the ship was 'baptized' or overwhelmed. Irretrievably sunk. This is sense in which the LXX uses the word, but this passage is a terrifying passage of scripture. It is found in the section of Isaiah where God's judgements are coming upon the nations. All of these visions are terrifying but Isaiah singles this one out for a special introduction; A grievous vision is declared unto me; the treacherous man dealeth treacherously, and the destroyer destroyeth. Go up, O Elam; besiege, O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease. (Isa 21:2 ASV) It is a grievous vision. In this vision he sees the judgements of God coming on Babylon. As a prophet he identifies with his prophecy and experiences, in the Spirit, the sense of the judgement upon Babylon. He uses the language of childbirth, and later refers to this judgement as; O thou my threshing, and the grain of my floor! that which I have heard from Jehovah of hosts, the God of Israel, have I declared unto you. (Isa 21:10 ASV) (We shall come back to the picture of the threshing floor later in these studies)

Experiencing the final judgement of God upon Babylon and its sin, Isaiah says 'he was baptized in horror'. He was utterly overwhelmed by the sense of God's righteous judgement upon sin, but even in the midst of this there is glimmer of hope represented in the picture of the travail that will bring forth.
Can we see any of our familiar traits in this use of 'baptize'? Well, it is God's destructive visitation of judgement upon sin, and the judgement will ultimately result in the freeing of Babylon's slave peoples. It is a separating experience that will leave people on either side of a divide. It is also one of the OT's most vivid pictures of Gethsemene and Calvary, but that will need to wait for a while in our studies.

The template for the idea of 'baptisim' is remarkably consistent. It is a destructive act of God which separates men from their slave­masters. Are we beginning to get an idea of what 'baptism' signified to Bible reading 1st century Jews?

Ezekiel's Baptism

As far as I am aware this is the last OT reference to the idea of baptism. Again it is in the Septuagint, the early church's KJV, that the word is used. This time it is in Ezekiel; Girded with girdles upon their loins, exceeding in dyed attire upon their heads, all of them princes to look to, after the manner of the Babylonians of Chaldea, the land of their nativity: (Eze 23:15 KJV) I expect you are looking at the verse and wondering where the word 'baptism' could be hidden here. Well, it's not the word 'baptizO' but that word 'baptO' signifying to dip and it is the word translated 'dyed'.

Our Greek New Testament has this word too; And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13 KJV) That word 'dipped' could be translated 'dyed'. When ancient people dyed a cloth in their purple dyes, they 'dipped' the cloth in and it became 'united with' what it had been dipped into. The words they used were 'baptO' and 'baptizO'. This is why the New Testament speaks of 'the baptism' in this way; Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, (Rom 6:4­5 NASB) 'baptism' unites the thing immersed into the medium into which it was baptised. The two become inseparably one. Once you had two items cloth and purplse dye, but now you have one item; purple­ cloth. There is no picture of judgement here, but the introduction of an idea that a baptism can effect a union. It is an irreversible event which leaves old things passed away and everything become new, or at least, purple!

The Jewish Baptism of Proselytes.

Edersheim: The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Appendix 12.


The Baptism of Proselytes.

1. Proselytes of the Gate did not undergo baptism or even circumcision.

2. It was otherwise with 'the proselytes of righteousness,' who became 'children of the covenant,''perfect Israelites,' Israelites in every respect, both as regarded duties and privileges. All writers are agreed that three things were required for the admission of such proselytes: Circumcision (Milah), Baptism (Tebhilah), and a Sacrifice (Qorban, in the case of women: baptism and sacrifice) ­ the latter consisting of a burnt­offering of a heifer, or of a pair of turtle doves or of young doves Maimonides, Hilkh. Iss. Biah xiii. 5). After the destruction of the Temple promise had to be made of such a sacrifice when the services of the Sanctuary were restored. On this and the ordinances about circumcision it is not necessary to enter further. That baptism was absolutely necessary to make a proselyte is so frequently stated as not to be disputed (See Maimonides, u. s.; the tractate Massekheth Gerim in Kirchheim's Septem Libri Talm. Parvi, pp. 38­44 [which, however, adds little to our knowledge]; Targum on Ex. xii. 44; Ber. 47 b; Kerith. 9 a; Jer. Yebam. p. 8 d; Yebam. 45 b, 46 a and b, 48 b, 76 a; Ab. Sar. 57 a, 59 a, and other passages). There was, indeed a difference between Rabbis Joshua and Eliezer, the former maintaining that baptism alone without circumcision, the latter that circumcision alone without baptism, sufficed to make a proselyte, but the sages decided in favour of the necessity of both rites (Yebam. 46 a and b). The baptism was to be performed in the presence of three witnesses, ordinarily Sanhedrists (Yebam. 47 b), but in case of necessity others might act. The person to be baptized, having cut his hair and nails, undressed completely, made fresh profession of his faith before what were 'the fathers of the baptism' (our Godfathers, Kethub. 11 a; Erub. 15 a), and then immersed completely, so that every part of the body was touched by the water. The rite would, of course, be accompanied by exhortations and benedictions (Maimonides, Hilkh. Milah iii. 4; Hilkh. Iss. Biah xiv. 6). Baptism was not to be administered at night, nor on a Sabbath or feast­day (Yebam. 46 b). Women were attended by those of their own sex, the Rabbis standing at the door outside. Yet unborn children of proselytes did not require to be baptized, because they were born 'in holiness' (Yebam. 78 a). In regard to the little children of proselytes opinions differed. A person under age was indeed received, but not regarded as properly an Israelite till he had attained majority. Secret baptism, or where only the mother brought a child, was not acknowledged. In general, the statements of a proselyte about his baptism required attestation by witnesses. But the children of a Jewess or of a proselyte were regarded as Jews, even if the baptism of the father was doubtful.

It was indeed a great thing when, in the words of Maimonides, a stranger sought shelter under the wings of the Shekhinah, and the change of condition which he underwent was regarded as complete. The waters of baptism were to him in very truth, though in a far different from the Christian sense, the 'bath of regeneration' (Titus iii. 5). As he stepped out of these waters he was considered as 'born anew' ­ in the language of the Rabbis, as if he were 'a little child just born' (Yeb. 22 a; 48 b; 97 b), as 'a child of one day' (Mass. Ger. c. ii.). Edersheim: The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Appendix 12.

The Baptism of Proselytes.

The Jews of John Baptist's day were very familiar with baptism; it was part of the essential ritual of a Gentile becoming a Jew. What must have been provoking was that John was baptizing Jews. There is an interesting feature in that one of John's sites was 'Bethabara beyond Jordan'; that means on the other side. I have often wondered whether John was acting out the Crossing of the Jordan in Joshua's time. Bethabara is exactly where they crossed. Jesus said of John, 'he restoreth all things'.

John's preaching of repentance and baptism was almost like a re­setting of the dials, bringing Israel back to the point of its beginnings.
What can we learn from Jewish Baptism to help us in building up our understanding of the word 'baptism'? There are definite links with 'cleansing' here and again the concept, for converted Gentiles, of old things having passed away and all things become new. It provoked in the Jewish thought ideas of 'born anew', 'a little child just born' and a 'bath of regeneration'.
I am not building doctrine on Jewish habits, but it is good to remind ourselves that John Baptist was not preaching in a sterile vacuum but in a market place of ideas. In such a context the word 'baptism' would have held ideas that were common to many groups.

John Baptist's Testimony

John Baptist was like the Morning Star which shone so brilliantly but which was inevitably made invisible by the rising of the sun. We are usually anxious to get on into the gospel account and sometimes this prevents us from considering 'how great' this man was. He was the greatest unregenerate servant of God; But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. (Mat 11:9­13 KJV) John was one of the Bible's milestone men; a watershed in God's ongoing purposes. John is the last of the breed.

His work was blessed with amazing popular success but, more importantly, with Christ's personal approval;

Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. (Mat 3:5­6 KJV)

And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought. (Mar 9:12 KJV)

He brought back the spiritual condition of the people to the highest levels. As Elijah had marked a new beginning for Israel, so John did the same. If John is the greatest of the prophets it behoves us to listen carefully to what he has to say about 'Baptism in the Spirit'. It is, after all, his phrase. In every narrative that mentions 'Baptism in the Spirit' there is a reference to John Baptist. (Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:5, Acts 11:16) It almost seems that the inspired historians never used the phrase without crediting John with its origin.

But it is not just John's origin of the phrase that the historians record but his continual contrast between his own mode of baptism and that of Christ's. "I am a water baptist; He will be a Spirit baptist." is the theme of his prophecy to Christ's future work. Well, as the world's most experienced baptizer, what did John think baptism signified? We have touched on the Jewish view of water baptism as the end of the old and the beginning of the new. It is a sacremental expression of death followed by life, and part of incorporation into the people of God. In Israel's Levitical ritual they placed their hands on sacrificial animals and acknowledged their sins; John's innovation is that Jews must also acknowledge their sins and then submit to baptism. So there is a clear focus on sin, and its penalty in death. But beyond the death there is new identity within the family of God. It is as though, old things had passed away and all things become new. He invited the hearers to 'play out' the sentence of death upon the old and yet when that was done they lived.

John's specific teaching about the nature of Christ's Spirit Baptism is found most fully in Matthew and Luke who each record with almost identical words; John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people. (Luk 3:16­18 KJV) This coming Baptizer, says John, will baptize you with (in) the Holy Spirit and fire. This is not two baptisms but one; a baptism in 'Holy Spirit
and fire'. Water was a Biblical symbol of judgement and cleansing; so was fire. There can be no doubt that when John used this phrase he was thinking of judgement and cleansing; his next words confirm that plainly. His thought moves seemlessly from the picture of 'fire' to the place that fire has in the process of harvest. His image is of the threshing floor; John says it is 'Christ's winnowing fan, Christ's threshing floor', Christ's garner. The only difference between Matthew and Luke is that Matthew tells us it is Christ's harvest too. (cf Luke 3:17, Matt 3:12) This whole process of baptism in Spirit and fire, according to John, is HIS.

What is John referring to? He links Christ's Baptism with harvest. It is easy to forget in the midst of all the other symbolism that the feast of Pentecost was a 'harvest festival. (Originally called the Feast of Weeks, (First Fruits and Harvest) (see Leviticus 23:15 ­ 21), it is observed on the sixth day of the Sivan (our May/June). It became known as Pentecost (meaning 50th) because it comes 50 days after Passover. It was the celebration of the beginning of the harvest season when the people brought the first fruits and offered them in thanksgiving to the Lord.) When was the last time we thought of Pentecost as a celebration of harvest? But for John the ideas are inseparable. This was Christ's harvest and John sees that the Spirit and fire Baptizer will have his fan in his hand. Seed and tares have grown together to harvest but now the time of final separation has arrived; Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. (Mat 13:30 KJV) Can you see the consistency of the imagery?

John has in mind the process of harvest. The wheat (and tares) have been cut down and gathered together on the threshing floor. With flails and sledges they have been out the gold grain, but it is all mixed up with the husks. They takes spadefulls of the mixture and lift it gently into the air. Meanwhile they create a gentle breeze with their fans and in a golden haze the chaff is blown to one side and the heavier grain fall to the earth. Next they gather the wheat into the barns, and the chaff is consumed in a spectacular conflagration. Have you seen a fire like this? Have you heard one? The fire creates its own upward thermal and draws in the oxygen which furthers the process. The noise is alarming; a great continuous roar. I cannot see this picture without seeing the day of Pentecost; And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. (Act 2:2­3 KJV) Donald Gee's history of the Pentecostal movement in the UK was called 'Wind and Fire'; the upper room had become part of the harvest process; the rushing mighty wind filled the room, and the coming Spirit filled those who waited in it. One of the consistent pictures of God's attitude to sin is expressed powerfully in Hebrews; For our God is a consuming fire. (Heb 12:29 KJV)

But John's image of harvest is part of his thinking on Christ's Baptism. Can we see any of our old patterns of baptism here? Judgement on sin and sinners, separation of God's people to safety, the old passed away, behold all things are become new. They are all here. Can we see why the old Holiness preachers equated Baptism in Spirit with God's dealing with sin rather than power to evangelize? And what is more sobering, how do pentecostal/charismatic paradigms of Baptism in the Holy Spirit match what we have seen so far? If, as many pentecostal/charismatic teachers would say, Baptism in the Holy Spirit does not relate to sin, separation, sanctification and new beginnings, then centuries of Biblical ideas have a been without purpose, and the word baptism now means some quite different to what we had been led to expect.

The forgotten baptism

We have at least one more 'baptism' to look at before we take the word into the phrase to see what we ought to be expecting from a 'baptism in the Spirit'. If the OT references are to 'hidden' baptisms' this one must be called the 'forgotten' baptism; I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: (Luk 12:49­51 KJV) Martin Luther king said 'I have a dream'but Jesus says 'I have a baptism'. What is he referring to? He links it in His thought to the sending of 'fire on the earth' and 'division'. This is not the only time He took up this kind of language; But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: (Mar 10:38­39 KJV) This is His cup and His baptism and there can be little doubt that He is referring to His death on the cross, but what extraordinary images to use. I may have led a 'sheltered life'but I have never heard anyone (other than myself) preach on Christ's death as a baptism; this is why I called it the 'forgotten' baptism.

This is a foundational image of His death, but little referred to in evangelical circles. If we take some of the values of 'baptism' from our previous notes and apply them here it begins to make sense. Isaiah comtemplated Babylon's judgement and was 'baptized in terror'. When Christ contemplated the cross His reactions were remarkably similar; And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray. And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. (Mar 14:32­36 KJV) Luke records great gouts of blood that splashed on the earth as He prayed. The other language used is to be found in medical textbooks of the day describing the extremities of a complete nervous breakdown. Terror has taken hold of Him.

Mark's gospel tells us of His thoughts as they walked to Gethsemene; And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. (Mar 14:26­27 KJV) This is a quotation from Zechariah; Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith Jehovah of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered; and I will turn my hand upon the little ones. (Zec 13:7 ASV) It is God who calls for the Sword of Judgement against 'my fellow'; it was the horror of this prospect that 'Abba, Father' must now unsheath His sword that broke Him in Gethsemene. And this was only the contemplation of the event, what must the reality be described as? A baptism to be baptized with and a cup to be drunk.

"O make me understand it,
Help me to take it in,
What is meant to Thee, the HOly One
To take away my sin"

The cup that he had first referred to in Mark 10 reappears in His prayer in Gethsemene. 'the cup' of Mark 10 has become 'this cup' of Mark 14. It is no longer 'the cup' as a prospect, it is 'this cup'; within reach now. His Abba Father is reaching out to Him with 'this cup'. The other image 'baptism' is an overwhelming flood. Judgement falls upon sin and the judgement becomes the source of the salvation; this is consistent with Noah's Baptism and Moses' Baptism. The separation effected by those Old Testament baptisms is seen again in the cry of dereliction; My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me and He bears in His body our sins. And it all culiminates in the great cry; it is finished.

Old things have passed away...

I believe something else is happening here which takes us to the very edge of revelation and human comprehension. Baptism effected a union. Those who 'received' Noah's baptism were united with him in his destiny. Those who 'received' Moses' Baptism were united with him in his destiny. What was Christ baptized into and with what was He united? I see a reference here to the real 'passion of the Christ'; For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2Co 5:21 KJV) The sinless lamb of God is seen as the 'serpent in the wilderness' [John 3:14] God has drawn the veil of an impenetrable blackness over these eternal moments and we can go no further, we can only bow and worship.
And yet, and this is breathtaking, He says; ... Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: (Mar 10:39 KJV) The disciples said 'We can' which only serves to show their ignorance at such a prospect, but He says 'ye shall...' How can these things be?

I'll try to answer the question in the next chapter, but before we leave this I will draw our attention to a remarkable verse in Paul's letter to the Corinthians; For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 RB Literal) Notice, baptism and drinking have come together again here in One Spirit. It was not an idle promise.... ye shall.

New Testament use of the word

Continuing our examination of the concept of baptism we can now take a look at the New Testament use of the word. In this exercise I am continuing to define the word 'baptism' before we join it to the phrase 'baptism in the Spirit'. My 'thesis' so far has been that the word has a long biblical history and that we must understand the use of the word before we can understand the expectations that 'baptism in the Spirit' would have evoked.

This time I want to go beyond the narratives in the Acts to pick up the word in the Epistles. If we can demonstrate that the word has maintained its mood and feeling we may say with some certainty that the word is used consistently throughout the scriptures; this will have deep implications for the phrase 'baptism in the Spirit'.

There are some references which clearly pertain to water baptism; (1 Cor 1:13­17, 15:29) but others are open to interpretation. Water baptism in the period of the Acts was usually referred to as 'baptism in the name of Jesus'. This was not a baptismal formual but a simple assertion that the person being baptized was coming under the authority of the 'name' into which they were baptized. To call 'the name of the Lord' over someone was to bring that person consciously under the authority of that owner of that name; Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (Jam 5:14 KJV). There is an interesting cameo in the story of David which illustrates this idea. Joab was about to take Rabbah but is insistent that the victory should be credited to David; and Joab sendeth messengers unto David, and saith, `I have fought against Rabbah­­also I have captured the city of waters; and now, gather the rest of the people, and encamp against the city, and capture it, lest I capture the city, and my name hath been called upon it.' (2Sa 12:27­28 YLT) To have David's 'name' called upon Rabbah would bring the city under David's authority and rule. The inscription of names of boundary stones throughout archaeology has the same purpose. To put your name on it is to stake your claim; Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Rev 3:12 KJV) 'baptism in the name' is to bring that person publically under the authority of 'the name'. Peter's first proclamation is a no compromise demand; Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Act 2:38 KJV) It would be a challenging question to ask whether we see 'water baptism' in this light today? The link between baptism and 'the name' continues throughout the Acts and into the Epistles; Acts 8:12­16, 10:48, 19:5, 22:16, 1 Cor 1:13­15.

However there are two occasions in the Epistles where the construction is changed dramatically and these passages have been the subject of disagreement as to their application; we will need to examine these.

1. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:3­6 KJV)

The phrase 'in the name' is missing from this passage. Instead we have a reference to 'baptism into Christ Jesus'; not 'into the name' now, but 'into the person'. The question we must ask is 'is this water­baptism'? The claims for this 'baptism' are wide­ranging. It is said that this baptism 'baptizes into His death'? Would any, other than the Roman Catholics and their fellow travellers, claim this for 'water baptism'? It reminds me of the old saying that if you water­baptize a sinner what you get is a 'wet sinner'. However, Paul sees the consequence of this 'baptism' in a much greater panarama. This baptism 'unites' the baptized with 'the likeness of His death'. In a profound sense this baptism is not focussing upon the death of the 'baptized' but upon Christ's own death; the event that He called 'a baptism'. This is not 'my death' but 'His death' which is being effected in the person being baptized. Again, this has powerful implications.

2. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:27­28 KJV)

Again the key phrase from the water­baptisms is missing. The reference is not to those 'baptized into the name of' but to those 'baptized into the person' of Christ. Again the implications are wide­ ranging; those who have been baptized into Christ have 'put on Christ'. This latter phrase immediately links with the things 'taught' to the Christians in Ephesus; if so be ye did hear him, and in him were taught, as truth is in Jesus; ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth. (Eph 4:21­24 YLT) Again, other than the Roman Catholics, no one would attribute these events to water ­baptism. We also see the consequence of this 'baptism' in that it has unites those baptized into 'oneness' in Christ.
In both of the above we are seeing that familiar theme of 'baptism' effecting a union. In the first with Christ's own baptismal­death on the cross, and in the second with the 'body' of His people who are 'one in Christ'. In fact both of these passages result in 'union with Christ'; union with Him in His death and union with Him in His Body. Each is a baptism 'into Christ' which unites the baptized with Him.

The theme is carried forward in another reference to 'baptism'; For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:12,­13 KJV) I have begun with the familiar KJV which seems to suggest that this 'baptism' is 'by one Spirit'. Some have used this translation to justify the teaching that this is a different baptism to 'baptism in the Spirit', but the original Greek phrase is exactly the same as earlier constructions; For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ, for also in one Spirit we all to one body were baptized, whether Jews or Greeks, whether servants or freemen, and all into one Spirit were made to drink, (1Co 12:12,13 YLT) The Greek prepositions behind the KJV are 'en'­'by' and 'eis'­'into', but 'en' is most usually translated 'in' and 'eis' has the purposive sense of 'towards', hence the Greek reads 'in one Spirit were we all baptized towards one Body'. The purpose, or one of them as it suits Paul's teaching here, was to get everything into 'one body', the means was 'baptism in Spirit'. In fact the passage parallels the earlier an earlier one; and all to Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea; (1Co 10:2 YLT) in which 'to Moses' is 'eis' and 'in the cloud etc' is 'en'. The purpose was to unite them all with Moses and the means was 'a baptism in cloud and sea'.

In these references we see a persistence that baptism effects union. The 1 Cor 12:13 reference brings together a baptism and a drinking; the exact imagery of Christ's own baptism and cup. This is the fulfilled promise; And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: (Mar 10:39 KJV) If it should be countered that this is just a reference to a bloody death we need to remind ourselves that, so far as we can be sure, John did not experience such a death. But how can we experience his 'baptism and cup'? By being 'baptized into Christ'. We are touching here, a baptism into a baptism. If God really does have means of uniting us to Christ at the point of His death then it is dynamically true, not positionally so that ...he who hath died hath been set free from the sin. (Rom 6:7 YLT) and that is the gospel in a nutshell.

We have two more references to study;

1. The first is more in the way of a return to an earlier one. we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.(Rom 6:4 YLT) Young's Literal translation picks up the definite article and give us 'the baptism'. It also reminds us of an earlier characteristic that we have noted; all biblical baptism is 'baptism into death' and if this is true is must have a poerful impact upon our understanding of the phrase 'baptism in the Spirit'.

The Greek definitive article can have the effect of a backwards reference. 'the death' of Romans 5 and 6 is a companion term to 'the sin'. This is not 'sins' as events but the nature and dynamic of 'Sin' which 'by one man' 'entered into the world'. Sin has its consequence in sins, and Death has its consequence in death, but we need to distinguish between the nature and the event. Christ's baptism (his cross) was a baptism into Sin and Death and in a manner beyong human expression He was united with it Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that *we* might become God's righteousness in him. (2Co 5:21 Darby). Again, we dare go no further... What a Saviour! 'the baptism into the death' however is a baptism into 'the death, His'. In this sense the Christian does not have to 'die to Sin'; he just needs to be baptized into Christ's baptism where He died to Sin. The Romans section carries the truth further forwards for we are united by such a 'baptism' into Christ who has already died and has already risen again (and if we were to follow the theme into Ephesians...) has already ascended, and has already sat down. It is wonderfully and literally true; everything is 'in Christ'.

2. The second is also obscurred by our English translations; in whom also ye were circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh in the circumcision of the Christ, being buried with him in the baptism, in which also ye rose with him through the faith of the working of God, who did raise him out of the dead.(Col 2:11­ 12 YLT) We have here another reference to 'the baptism' and this one will add some more 'experiences'. This time Paul says his Colossians readers were 'co­buried with Christ' and 'co­raised with Him' and each time he sees the agent as 'the baptism'. He says 'you were co­buried with Him in the baptism' 'in which (the baptism) you were also c­raised with Him. Faith is at work here too, but the focus is 'the baptism'. Again we see the uniting power of 'the baptism' which unites us to a life that was taken down into death and raised from it.

The word 'baptism' is retaining its historical content. It is baptism into death. It is judgment upon the old. It is separation from the continuing pollution. It is an end which makes a genuine beginning possible. It is a uniting process which links the baptized into the destiny of the another. It is co­ everything; co­circumcision, co­burial, co­resurrection, co­ascension, co­seating in the heavenlies, and all is 'in Christ' and so may I be... 'by the baptism'.

What really happened at Cornelius' place

Do you recall the title 'what really happened at Azuza Street'? How about 'what really happened at Cornelius' place' There are several unique features about Cornelius, especially that this is the first comprehensive Gentile experience of 'baptism in the Spirit'. Perhaps we should justify that phrase first?

When Peter justified his entering into Cornelius house he did so in terms of the Holy Spirit's leading. He went on to justify Cornelius' experience by using the language of 'baptism in Spirit'; And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. (Act 11:15­16 KJV) This is a rich passage; it includes:

1. the sense of suddenness; the Holy Spirit fell on them

2. a tie into their own unquestionable experience in Acts 2; as on us at the beginning

3. the identification of this experience with the phrase 'baptism in Spirit'. This is clearly a repeat of Acts 2 but without the wind and fire. The language used to describe the narrative is very wide.

The story begins with Cornelius' command to send for Peter; And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. (Act 10:5­6 KJV) Peter gives more details of this event in Acts 11 and declares that the purpose of his visit to Corenlius was Cornelius' salvation; And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. (Act 11:13,­14 KJV)

Cornelius would have been a credit to most churches today. He was devout, gave charitable gifts, was constant in prayer, fasted, had visions of angels. He also knew of Christ's preaching and miracles; The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. (Act 10:36­38 KJV) But, apparently, he still needed to be 'saved' and for this he needed Peter's words. Cornelius experience, like so many, had been culmulative but was still incomplete.

Peter certainly added to Cornelius store of information; And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Act 10:39­ 43 KJV) This new information includes the facts that Christ has risen, will be Judge of living and dead, is the fulfillment of OT prophecy and, that as a consequence of faith in Him believers would have their sins remitted. This is a wonderful summary of the gospel and we may presume that Cornelius and his house­meeting believed; Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? (Act 11:17 KJV) The mood is pregnant; While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. (Act 10:44 NASB)

The conservative Jewish believers were amazed that; on the Gentiles was poured out (another image) the gift of the Holy Spirit. Traditional Pentecostal denominations have found strong evidence here for their doctrine of 'the initial evidence' of speaking with tongues. The Jewish witness, seven in all, witnessed an epoch opening event; Gentiles had received the Spirit just as we did. When Peter reported this to the gathered saints in Jerusalem their response was significant: When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Act 11:18 KJV). There logic was God has given them 'repentance unto life'. In the space of a few sentences Cornelius and his friends came to genuine faith and a repentance that opened the way to life. God's response was to baptize them in the Holy Spirit. For the reluctant folks back at Jerusalem God's response to Cornelius was conclusive proof that salvation was opened to the Gentiles.

There is a post­script to this story. Some years later at the Jerusalem conference Peter gave his evidence; And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Act 15:8­9 KJV) He boldly declares that what happened at the home of Cornelius was that 'hearts were purified, by faith'. This is new evidence; it was not recorded in Acts 10 or 11. Why would Peter make such an assertion? Because he knew that this is what happened when people were 'baptized in the Holy Spirit'. It seems that in the space of few moments, Cornelius believed, repented unto life, received the Holy Spirit and had his heart purified by faith. There is a dimension to baptism in the Spirit which has almost become lost here. God, who knew their hearts, bore witness to them by giving them the Spirit. This eliminated all differences between Jew and Gentile and brought in heart purity. Yes, they spoke with tongues and magnified God, but something had happened on the inside too; their hearts were purified by faith.
The Second Blessing Holiness people said 'Baptism in the Spirit produces a clean heart'. The Pentecostals said Baptism in the Spirit 'gives power for service'. Why quarrel? Why set one truth against the other?


C
Croref

Robert, If this is true:

"The Second Blessing Holiness people said 'Baptism in the Spirit produces a clean heart'. The Pentecostals said Baptism in the Spirit 'gives power for service'. Why quarrel? Why set one truth against the other?"

Then what does this say to the believer:

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded". James 4:8 (KJV)

R
RobertW

Hi CroRef,

Then what does this say to the believer:

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded". James 4:8 (KJV)

James' writings are unique in the New Testament so we have to look at them carefully. Martin Luther called James 'an epistle of straw' in reference to Paul's words in 1 Cor. 3:12 (gold, silver, precious stones or hay wood and stubble). I think Martin Luther was wrong here, but we have to understand that James has a unique perspective. He deals with issues Paul speaks to so that it appears they are opposing each other at times; but as the late J. Vernon McGee stated, Paul and James stood back to back armed defending both sides of certain truths. I think this is right.

Our passage describes the phenomena and gives an admonition, Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded. (James 4:8b) Certainly this does not sound like a believer that has received a new heart and a new Spirit? Our Greek word is dipsychos (δίψυχοι) and is apparently a word coined by James. From dis (twice) and psuchē (soul) or "double-souled", double-minded. This was John Bunyan’s “Mr. Facing-both-ways." (A.T. Robertson) James 1:8 tells us that he/she is unstable in all of his ways.

This, in my view, is the same experience Paul dealt with at Corinth. He told them, "Are you not carnal and walk as men." They had been radically changed by God, but were now walking in their old manor of life. James takes a diferent angle and suggests that what we are actually doing is splitting our allegiance to God with other things. I have said in the past, anything that we are splitting our allegiance to God with has the potential of splitting our personality. That may sound like a psychological phenomena, but it is possible for a person to act like a Christian in some situations and become almost someone nobody recognizes in others. Beloved, this ought not so to be.

John Wesley has this note on James 4:8, "Draw nigh to God in prayer, and he will draw nigh unto you, will hear you; which that nothing may hinder, cleanse your hands—Cease from doing evil. And purify your hearts—From all spiritual adultery. Be no more double minded, vainly endeavouring to serve both God and mammon." So we see then the ongloing trap of falling into a desire for this present worlds goods. It is an ever present threat. I have no doubt that it would have been a temptation to Adam if he was here and had never fallen. Do we have an example of this in Acts? I think we do.

James gives his solution, purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded. This statement reminds me of Ananias and Sapphira that were prepared to lie to the Holy Ghost over money and popularity because Satan had filled their hearts. (Acts 5:1ff) They may have had a new heart before, but now they have opened the door and Satan has filled it with his lies and reasonings. "The very verb used for 'filled thine heart' is the same for the filling by the Holy Spirit (Acts 4:31). Satan the adversary is the father of lies (John 8:44). He had entered into Judas (Luke 22:3; John 13:27) and now he has filled the heart of Ananias with a lie-- to lie to the Holy Spirit (pseusasthai se to pneuma to hagion)." (A.T. Robertson)

God has given the Saints a new heart, but that heart can beocme corrupted again because of this present evil world. This is why men like Ravenhill suggested that God could take an unholy man, make him holy, put him back into an unholy world and keep him holy. My solution for this is what James told us; purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded. Purify is a word dealing with ceremonial cleaning. It is described at times as the work of God and others as the work of man. On our end we need to renounce anything that we have allowed, no matter what or how long we have entertained it and allowed it to split our soul into two different personalities.

So we see then that the enemy is always trying to lure us away- even after we have been truly saved. He is a defiler of sanctuaries. He wants to defile our Temple and set up all manor of idols in us. This is why I keep saying we have to keep our eye on the Temple motif troughout the Old Testament. The devil was always working to somehow defile the Temple or cause a problem there. Think about how the enemies of God came in and sacrificed a pig in the holy of holies during the 400 silent years, etc. Over and over from Dagon before the Ark to uzziah running into the Holy Place to do the work of a priest as a king. Satan is a defiler of God's santuaries. He did it to the sanctuary of the Garden of Eden and he will try to do it in us. We must renounce anything that tries to come up and challenge God or that would double our mind. Again, this is not what a Saint 'is', just like carnality is not normal for a Saint: but we are always in jeopardy of becoming these if we are not vigilant and watchful over our own lives. Blessings.

C
Croref

Robert, It would seem then that James was admonishing those 'believers' he was familiar with, wouldn't you say?

R
RobertW

Hi CroRef,

Robert, It would seem then that James was admonishing those 'believers' he was familiar with, wouldn't you say?

I would say probably, no. This is one of the reasons that the book of James is a challenge. We have this salutation and address:

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. (James 1:1)

His address to the 'twelve tribes' ought to signal us as to who this writing is intended for. This is always important when doing exegesis and exposition. I am not- nor have I ever been one of the twelve tribes of Israel. The 10 tribes passed into legend when carried off by Assryia. Who could these people possibly be? Thiere is much speculation, but it shows the difficulty of reading James to begin with. I believe it is a New Testament canonical writing, but I read it more as the book of Proverbs. Many things said are general truths, but are not expoundings of the New Covenant as we find else where.

S
sermonindex

Are you saying that the belief that the Immersion in the Holy Spirit (notice i didnt use the KJV word baptism)...that this experience as a second and distinct experience to conversion/salvation/born again...is a lie?
To call it a "Second and Distinct" experience is a lie in itself. Conversion and being born again can only come by one who has been baptized by Jesus Christ. Mark 1:8

When we give ourselves over to Jesus Christ by faith the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all unrighteousness and we have been justified before God as righteous but we are not born again, nor are we in the Kingdom of God. We have been forgiven and cleansed and now the vessel is ready to be born again from above, or to be immersed into the Holy Ghost. What makes this offensive is the way we have been raised and taught. I am very aware of the fact that this subject is highly volatile because many many peoples have been taught that they receive the Holy Ghost baptism as soon as they give their lives to the Lord or are baptized in water.

RobertW merely stirred up what the Holy Ghost has been saying for the last couple of years but I couldn't find the words to bring the whole thing together. I see it now and it's wonderful to behold.

If we call the Holy Ghost the "Second Blessing", than so be it, but lets not look at it as something that is an option, but something that we should not only want but need. He is the Operating System, we need Him to be installed into our hard drive, without this One Baptism we are not born from above.

I am thinking of the Children of Israel in Egypt. It was there that the blood was put on the lintels over the door. Remember they were in Egypt which represents the old man Adam, they had not yet stepped over to where God wanted them to be. Old things have not yet passed away for they were still under the bondage of their masters. Yet in the midst of that God covers them with the blood of a lamb. Egypt represents unregenerate man. Israel was protected under the blood, loved and favoured. They were protected because they aligned themselves with Moses believing that God sent him. When we repent and believe the gospel, believing that Jesus was sent by God to deliver us, we too are protected by the blood. Yea, further our sins are removed, being justified freely in the sight of God, we stand righteous before God by faith.

This has never changed since Abel right up to the last prophet martyred John. Men who believed God their faith was accounted to them for righteousness. This still applies today, yet those righteous men were not born again, having not received the promise.

I have not raced through this post with glee. I have sat here and wondered if I should send it to print, because people will be offended. But why weren't the Ephesians? Why didn't they argue doctrine with Paul? Why didn't they stand up to what they believed and held to their teachings?

The only thing that is coming to me is, Of a truth I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of God. Matthew 18:3

S
sermonindex

Robert said:

But Paul said that there is only One Baptism (Ephesians 4:5). So which one was it?
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

S
sermonindex

When we give ourselves over to Jesus Christ by faith the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all unrighteousness and we have been justified before God as righteous but we are not born again, nor are we in the Kingdom of God. We have been forgiven and cleansed and now the vessel is ready to be born again from above, or to be immersed into the Holy Ghost. What makes this offensive is the way we have been raised and taught. I am very aware of the fact that this subject is highly volatile because many many peoples have been taught that they receive the Holy Ghost baptism as soon as they give their lives to the Lord or are baptized in water.

Im not sure what is meant by "offensive" in your post brother. But I can see how the divisions which are being drawn between believing and having newness of life will have profound implications for many people. How many on this thread remains to be seen. It is no small matter what is being drawn out. Neither do I believe it is being drawn our sufficiently well enough to resists any likely offence. It will cause some to stumble in the end of that I am sure as well. I accept that this is not intended but it will happen because the distinction is implicit as well as stated in parts of the thread. It is a distinction which when put simply is offensive in that it appears to contradict Scriptures regarding what constitutes the basis for a person to take confidence in Christ and to believe that they are born again and will therefore one day see God. It is also a distinction which by explanation of a single verse of Scripture in Ephesians chapter 4 is more than many simple hearted believer could easily understand. If the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God, then we are. No amount of seeking to devise explanations as to when we are baptised into Christ or else when Christ' own life becomes ours will alter or change that reality. But such explanations may disturb the faith of some who for a variety of reasons may not have confidence beyond what they first believed.

S
sermonindex

James' writings are unique in the New Testament so we have to look at them carefully.
Indeed, for they were addressed to the Jews and not to the Gentiles.

I am going on on a limb here so bare with me, what I say here is all speculation so don't accuse me of believing it.

There seems to be slight differences between the gospel of the Apostles and the gospel of Paul. Paul says in three occasions that he refers the gospel as being his.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to "my" gospel.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to "my" gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began...

2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to "my" gospel...

No one else speaks in this personal way save Christ Himself.

There are subtle clues,

Galatians 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them THAT gospel which I preach among the gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

"But privately to them which were of reputation", no doubt the Apostles. But notice how he is wording it.

He had to privately speak of it denotes that those who didn't have wisdom could find themselves arguing against it.

I have some ideas but I would have to privately speak about them.

S
sermonindex

I had posed this question several posts back.Approved seems to have given something of an answer to it. My questin was, how were people like Abraham and David, saved. The New Testament says in Romans. and Galatians that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. The writer of Hebrews says says that the O.T. saints had tbe gospel preached to them. But ut was not combined with faith.

I am asking is it possible for one to believe in Christ for salvation and be covered by the blood, but not be born again? Is this tbe case of O. T. saints?

Bearmaster.

H
Heydave

Re-bearmaster. This has been answered I think. Most agree that those in the OT were justified by faith, but not born again (born of the Spirit). Robert and Approved are suggesting that this process is still possible today, but others like me understand that when someone today truely believes on Christ they are born of God by the Spirit.

H
Heydave

Question for RobertW & Approved

We read in Acts that almost every time (apart from Cornelius' houshold) people we baptised in water BEFORE receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now we understand that water baptism in the name of Christ is an identification and recognition of the fact that we are united with Christ into His death and also into His resurected life. Therefore it would not make sense for anyone to be baptised in water if they had not already be born again of the Spirit and come into this reality.

So my question is when do you think believers should be baptised, on believing or after receiving the Spirit?

I do think there is a confusion being made between the indwelling Spirit that all who believe receive and the 'baptism of the Spirit' for empowerment for witness.

Very shortly after Pentecost when they were all 'filled with the Spirit' you find the disciples being 'filled withthe Spirit' again (Acts 4:31). It is very similar to Pentecost and for what purpose? To have boldness to Witness!

A
ADisciple

Things are flying thick and fast on this thread, but I thought I would highlight a portion of the article by Ron Bailey that RobertW posted a couple of pages back.

QUOTE from the article:

"When Peter justified his entering into Cornelius' house he did so in terms of the Holy Spirit's leading. He went on to justify Cornelius' experience by using the language of 'baptism in Spirit'; And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. (Act 11:15­16 KJV) This is a rich passage; it includes:

1. the sense of suddenness; the Holy Spirit fell on them

2. a tie into their own unquestionable experience in Acts 2; as on us at the beginning

3. the identification of this experience with the phrase 'baptism in Spirit'. This is clearly a repeat of Acts 2 but without the wind and fire. The language used to describe the narrative is very wide." END OF QUOTE

My own comment now: This clearly shows that Peter saw the experience of Acts 2:1-4 as the fulfillment of John the Baptist's prophecy about Christ baptizing in the Holy Spirit. Whatever the significance of John 20:22 (at which time, by the way, Thomas was not present), Peter calls the Acts experience "the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 11:17). And so it has to be this, in my opinion, that fulfills Jesus' words, "...He dwelleth WITH you, and shall be IN you" (Jn. 14.18).

Allan

R
RobertW

Hi Heydave,

So my question is when do you think believers should be baptised, on believing or after receiving the Spirit?

My view of water baptism is that it is a public declaration of faith, obedience and submission to God, pointing either forward or backwards to the One Baptism into Christ by the Spirit.

Sometimes folks are water baptized and then receive the Spirit and sometimes God has fallen on folks and they received the Spirit and were water baptized later. I have also heard of people receiving the Spirit at the same time they were water baptized. I see it as an act of obedience to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus did not need to be baptized, but He did so because it was a pattern God was establishing for everyone to follow, as a public act of submission and obedience to God.

If a person knows something is God's will and will not do it then I question any experience that a person may have had or allegedly had. Just my take on it. Here is an example:

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
(Acts 8:35-38)

Here the eunuch is chomping at the bit to obey God. This is faith. He believes God in a way that God can believe him. A lot of experiences a Christian have are just that, experiences. But the key to everything is a willingness to obey God. A person can say they received the Spirit, but that may or may not be true no matter what manifestation of evidence happens. So I see water baptism of an act of faith authenticating a persons willingness to obey God publicly. Blessings.

M
murrcolr

Quote: When we give ourselves over to Jesus Christ by faith the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us from all unrighteousness and we have been justified before God as righteous but we are not born again, nor are we in the Kingdom of God. We have been forgiven and cleansed and now the vessel is ready to be born again from above, or to be immersed into the Holy Ghost.

Well by what you’re saying above I see two different blessings, justification and sanctification, however I wouldn’t agree with you that we are not born again when we are justified.

Quote: If we call the Holy Ghost the "Second Blessing", than so be it, but lets not look at it as something that is an option, but something that we should not only want but need.

That correct it has been described by many different names over the years, but the most important thing is that it should be considered as something we need.

Quote: I am thinking of the Children of Israel in Egypt. It was there that the blood was put on the lintels over the door. Remember they were in Egypt which represents the old man Adam, they had not yet stepped over to where God wanted them to be. Old things have not yet passed away for they were still under the bondage of their masters. Yet in the midst of that God covers them with the blood of a lamb. Egypt represents unregenerate man.

We should also consider is that when Israel came out of Egypt they didn’t directly go into the Promised Land they went into the wilderness.

While Israel was in the Wilderness we find that Egypt remained in Israel.

They wanted The Safety Of Egypt - Ex. 14:10-11 They wanted the Supplies Of Egypt - Ex. 16:2-3; Ex. 17:3; Num. 20:4 They wanted the Spirits Of Egypt - Ex. 32:1-8 They wanted the Stability Of Egypt - Num. 21:4-5 They Despised Their Savior From Egypt - Deut. 1:27

There hearts wanted Egypt, there minds wanted Egypt they remained one with Egypt. Israel’s failure was that they didn’t put off their former way of life they there were Egyptian by nature. There old Egyptian nature was not put to death…

Israel in there time of testing in the wilderness harden there hearts and rebelled against God Heb 3:8 and God swore that they wouldn’t enter into his rest. Heb 3:18 The writer to the Hebrews exhorts his readers to “enter in” to the Sabbath rest provided by Christ.

The writer also begs us not to make the same mistake by rejecting God’s Sabbath rest in Jesus Christ. “There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience” Heb 4:9-11

H
Heydave

RobertW wrote: "Sometimes folks are water baptized and then receive the Spirit and sometimes God has fallen on folks and they received the Spirit and were water baptized later. I have also heard of people receiving the Spirit at the same time they were water baptized. I see it as an act of obedience to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus did not need to be baptized, but He did so because it was a pattern God was establishing for everyone to follow, as a public act of submission and obedience to God."

Robert, I would agree with this if we define the 'comming upon of the Spirit' as endument with power (as per Acts 1:8). However the point I am pressing to understand is that you are saying that this 'coming on of the Spirit' is the point that someone is 'born again' and baptised into Christ. If this is the case then the act of water baptism would not make sense for someone for who is not born again. Are you advocating that unregenerate people should be baptised in water?

Maybe I am not understaning your position here. Do you think it is enevitable that someone who is justified by faith WILL come into regeneration by the Spirit, or do you think that there are some who are only justified, but never get born again? If so what position do they have in God's plan? I don't see two groups (or classes) of believers in heaven. Please clarify. Thanks.

R
RobertW

Hi Heydave,

you advocating that unregenerate people should be baptised in water?

Again, keep in mind that there are only two passages in the NT that use the term 'regeneration', which I dealt with earlier. What I advocate is that all sinners:

1.Repent and believe the Gospel
2.Be baptized (baptised) in water
3.Receive the Holy Spirit (as a conscious experience)

This is the pattern in acts although 2 and 3 may be reversed.

Maybe I am not understaning your position here. Do you think it is enevitable that someone who is justified by faith WILL come into regeneration by the Spirit, or do you think that there are some who are only justified, but never get born again? If so what position do they have in God's plan? I don't see two groups (or classes) of believers in heaven. Please clarify. Thanks.

These are common concerns that I have wrestled with over the years. Let me first say that 'saying' a person is regenerated or creating a doctrinal construct, based on logical deductions and proof texts, is not the solution here. Either a person is truly regenerated or they are not. My theology cannot change what they really are one way or the other.

And I have known a great many people that have named the name of Christ and had no appetite for God, no real fruit unto holiness in their life, etc. They may have prayed a prayer, etc. and they may believe all the tenants of the faith, but there are no real MARKS of the New Birth. Some teachers/preachers will then proceed to try and disciple these folks by imposing institutional law upon them, but that institutional law (biblical principals, etc.) is contrary to their constitutional nature. Like sending my pet dog Zook to obedience school, it may make him act more civilized, but at certain times (such as when he sees a cat) his constitutional nature is going to override the institutional laws I have imposed on him. This is why I tell people all the time (and get lots of funny looks) that you cannot TEACH a person to be a Christian.

So what do we do? We have whole movements that try to isolate themselves and their families to create a mini-culture that will foster what I just mentioned. but this is no substitute for a person truly being transformed by the Spirit into a New Creature in which God changes the ESSENTIAL NATURE of a person. I refuse to let people think they are born again that are moving in some lesser thing. It may make everyone comfortable, but it does not fulfill God's purposes.

We have people argue all the time trying to make excuses for their carnal behavior. They say, "the sin-nature got up out of bed before the spiritual man today", so they acted like the devil all morning. I do not believe in schizophrenic Saints. I am not saying that discourage anyone, I just don't believe in it. Paul said, "we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit dwells in us." A person cannot be in Adam and in Christ at the same time. But there are many people walking around and this is their exact experience. they are 'born again of a decision' as L. Ravenhill would say. And they are high maintenance, low impact 'believers'.

So what we are really asking here is, "is God going to save the people that have 'believed' and 'asked for forgiveness', etc., but that never come into an experience where they could say that they have 'begun in the Spirit' (Galatians 3:3). A baby may be born and have to grow up, but all the parts are there from birth under normal conditions. Nothing is born by parts. I don't believe in evolutional regeneration. A sinner does not slowly evolve over years into a Saint. When something is born it's all there, nothing lacking. When God comes in He transforms and cleanses the House into a place that He can dwell and be "at home in you". I cannot settle for some lesser thing when God has revealed in His word His design.

So I refuse to 'advocate' anything less than what God wants in man. I'm not going to call a sinner a Saint (regenerated) because they believed a few points of doctrine and can recite the apostles creed or something. This is why I see baptism in water as a real test. I have known of people to say the sinners prayer and then when offered baptism say, "not now, maybe some other time" or they simply don't sign up for it when the day comes. They don't intend on obeying, therefore I do not see them as justified by faith, much less regenerated.

So I see genuine repentance and faith as essential to justification. Some would call this being 'born again', but I see this as conversion. As in, repent ye therefore and be CONVERTED that your sins may be blotted out. I then see the next step as the "times of refreshing coming by the Spirit of God." A person may be converted and truly trying to serve Christ and fall right here into the TRAP of legalism. They may join a sect or impose on themselves a trillion laws to hem themselves in to want to do right. They work hard trying to 'put on' fruit, like a person would decorate a Christmas Tree, but it is not natural. Their 'fruit' is a 'learned behavior' that runs contrary to what they really want to do. I believe the regenerate bear the fruit of the Spirit as naturally as a sinner yields thorns and briars. If I go in the back yard I don't see the hedge ball tree straining to produce vicious thorns and hedge apples. Nor should a true child of God have to 'strain' to produce fruit unto holiness (love, etc.).

So I am saying that I believe that there are converted people that are in the process of really seeking God to do His will and they are 'justified by faith.' If they go on with God at some point they will receive that which their soul longs for. God will make it happen. But what about the people that reach out on their death-bed? I am particularly keen on this subject because one of the ministries God has stewarded me with is to the elderly. It is my view that if a person reaches out to God in genuine repentance and faith (as did the thief on the cross) then they are justified by faith and God will perfect that which is lacking in them in Heaven. We are not saved by sanctification, but by grace through faith.

Some would call what I am calling 'conversion' being born again. They will then suggest that the second blessing in Acts 2 is for power for service. I am not here to argue that point. I am simply trying to focus on what the scripture reveals without imposing theological concepts that are geared very often to favor man then to reveal God's perfect will, upon what is designed in the New Covenant. God has done a marvelous thing and given us exceeding and great and precious promises, whereby we can be partakers of the Divine Nature. Not a bunch of self-imposed rules, but Christ in you the hope of glory. if a person has truly 'begun in the Spirit', are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, are yielding the fruit of the Spirit unto holiness in a genuine way, are being led by the Spirit so as to be the sons of God, then however they got to that point is immaterial to me. If God wants to spin the thing around and do a 3,2,1 or 2,1,3, or 3,1,2 I really don't mind at all. But I believe that we need all of them in order to have the reality God wants for us. He is moving man to a place where He would not be ashamed to call us His brethren. That is a very powerful, sobering and glorious thought. Hope that helps. Blessings.

C
Croref

After Obedience - What?

"And straightway He constrained His disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side… ."
Mark 6:45-52

We are apt to imagine that if Jesus Christ constrains us, and we obey Him, He will lead us to great success. We must never put our dreams of success as God's purpose for us; His purpose may be exactly the opposite. We have an idea that God is leading us to a particular end, a desired goal; He is not. The question of getting to a particular end is a mere incident. What we call the process, God calls the end.

What is my dream of God's purpose? His purpose is that I depend on Him and on His power now. If I can stay in the middle of the turmoil calm and unperplexed, that is the end of the purpose of God. God is not working towards a particular finish; His end is the process - that I see Him walking on the waves, no shore in sight, no success, no goal, just the absolute certainty that it is all right because I see Him walking on the sea. It is the process, not the end, which is glorifying to God.

God's training is for now, not presently. His purpose is for this minute, not for something in the future. We have nothing to do with the afterwards of obedience; we get wrong when we think of the afterwards. What men call training and preparation, God calls the end.

God's end is to enable me to see that He can walk on the chaos of my life just now. If we have a further end in view, we do not pay sufficient attention to the immediate present: if we realize that obedience is the end, then each moment as it comes is precious. . . . . . Oswald Chambers

H
Heydave

Hi Robert,

I really appreciate that you took time to clarify your thoughts on this. I understand much better what you are saying. I wholeheartedly agree with the points you made about the difference between coming into a realisation of justification and being born again and the new life we have in Christ. It's the whole package God planned and wants for all of us. I suppose I would probably see it more that it is more to do with a lack of teaching or understanding about the resurection life rather than not having it, but I cannot be dogmatic about that, as we do not know the heart of men.

What is important is that we make sure each individually that we know we are born of God. As Paul says in 2 Cor 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

R
RobertW

Hi Heydave,

What is important is that we make sure each individually that we know we are born of God. As Paul says in 2 Cor 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

Contextually Paul is here speaking about the matter of Christ speaking through them. Notice how we have the passage leading to verse 5:

Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.(2 Cor. 13:3)

He then answers in verse 6, But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Here we have the word reprobate which is the Greek adokimos. This word has had my attention for a very long time because Paul states in 1 Cor 9:27, But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. Here the Greek word for 'castaway' is adokimos. So what is he talking about. Does this mean Paul got his body into subjection lest he become a reprobate or is he saying that he got his body under subjection lest he become disqualified to minister; that is, to SPEAK on behalf of Christ.

I lean more towards the latter, although I am not sure. I certainly don't want people to have the impression that it's OK or 'safe' to be careless in our walk with the Lord. If we take the approach that Paul means 'reprobate' then we have to conclude that if we do not get our body into subjection then we risk Christ departing from us so that we become 'reprobate'. That's how I kind-of see the possibilities playing out.

If we take the strictest view of it all, again, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?", then in my view we have to ask Paul's question to the Ephesians, "have you received since you believed?" There is no way for a person to examine themselves but by experience as it relates to the scriptures. So the question would be, "Can you remember a time when Christ came INTO you?" "Is Christ, right now, 'abiding' in you?" This is not a quest for a theological deductive answer, but for reality. Examine yourself and tell me, is Christ IN you? I think those are the possibilities. Hope that helps. Blessings.

H
Heydave

Robert, Interesting points you made.

Quote: "There is no way for a person to examine themselves but by experience as it relates to the scriptures. So the question would be, "Can you remember a time when Christ came INTO you?" "Is Christ, right now, 'abiding' in you?" This is not a quest for a theological deductive answer, but for reality. Examine yourself and tell me, is Christ IN you? I think those are the possibilities. Hope that helps."

I agree that it can only be by scripture that we can examine ourselves. In particular the epistle of 1 John gives a very clear definition to test ourselves as to whether we are truely 'in Christ' or born of God. For example:

" If we say we have fellowship (shared life) with Him (Christ), and walk in darkness we lie..."

"If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

"you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him."

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God."

Etc, Etc........

S
sermonindex

by amrkelly on 2012/10/28 4:46:19


Perhaps some people are none of these things and know the truth and are born again simply because they believed God. Perhaps some have seen Christ physically and know the truth concerning who He is for this reason. Perhaps others are simply taught of The Holy Spirit as is promised.

Thanks amrkelly! I don't see from scriptures where being born again is needed for "initial" or "elementary" salvation. Do you? I see it as being needed for intimacy in Christ, in the Father. What say you? Croref.


Until this post brother I had never asked myself the question that forms the root by “awakened.” The question itself obviously pertains to salvation of the Apostles. And the consensus appears to be that they were born again on the day of Pentecost. For various reasons I have no difficulty with that.

Cornelius, his family and his friends have been cited as a possible example of the process of salvation being “worked out” in a few moments of time. Certainly what happened to Cornelius et al does have a clear conclusion in that they did receive the Holy Spirit in like manner as the Jews did in the upper room of Pentecost. Peter in explaining this incident in Jerusalem later on reported that the angel who appeared to Cornelius said “and he (Peter) will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your house (v14).” Peter himself also began his address by pointing out “you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. “You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. (v 36-37). Clearly Cornelius had a great deal of knowledge he also prayed and supported the poor and was God fearing. Yet Peter didn’t preach repentance. He spoke of the resurrection instead.

I didn’t answer your question earlier because it was not desired and because its of no relevance to the thread. I also didn’t want to cut across too much the effort of others. It is an interesting thread however in more ways than one and has in it a presentation that goes far beyond what many will realize. But that’s just my thoughts on it.

To answer your question directly brother I don’t believe salvation begins until a person is born again. It has always been my understanding that new birth is the spiritual minimum and not the object of God’s activities in men.

R
RobertW

Hi HeyDave,

" If we say we have fellowship (shared life) with Him (Christ), and walk in darkness we lie..."

"If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

"you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him."

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God."

Etc, Etc........

I think this is true. A person will know if Christ has came into them because they, of all people, will know if they have been radically changed. I can tell you the day I was changed by the Spirit into a New Creature in Christ. I could do a before and after. I knew God had came and as a result Christianity because something I was inwardly and by nature. I didn't have to 'put on'. I didn't have to fake like I loved, I really loved. I received a whole new affection.

Before that time I was real good at quoting scripture verses and even saying 'amen' at the right time. But when Christ came into me my whole heart and mind was different. Almost like someone had reinstalled the operating system. All the memories were there, but I looked at them very differently. Things I used to proud of I was now ashamed of, etc. I received the mind of
Christ. My heart was replaced form a heart of stone to a heart of flesh that could feel compassion and be moved with compassion- even for my enemies, etc.

The Holy Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. Before Christ came in I was just an outsider working real hard to try to be a 'good Christian'. Being a New Creature, having been baptized into Christ, I was set free from the bondages of Sin. That is NOT to say I am not temptable or have had to repent. I have had to repent and even publically before since being changed, but that was the consequence of my own refusal to bring my body into subjection, etc. and falling the example of Christ. Sin for a Christian is like a fish out of water. We can sin as the regenerate, but we are moving contrary to our essential nature. We can be drawn away and enticed even as was Adam and Eve before the fall, etc.

So we see then that Paul knows that we know if we have received Christ or not; whether or not we are what he describes in his epistles. just a few thoughts. Blessings.

S
sermonindex

Hi brother Robert,
First of all, thank you for your in depth and very helpful writings, I really appreciate it and agree with almost everything you write. However I do have some concerns.

I refuse to let people think they are born again that are moving in some lesser thing. It may make everyone comfortable...

Uncomfortable? This an understatement:) What context are you speaking of here...I am assuming when you say, "everyone" that this is in a church setting? Are you referring to when you preach? I would like to hear how this pans out practically in body life. How else do you go about "refusing to let them think they are born again"? Do you examine them? Can you give me an example of how you have done this recently?

I do not believe in schizophrenic Saints. I am not saying that discourage anyone, I just don't believe in it. Paul said, "we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit dwells in us." A person cannot be in Adam and in Christ at the same time.

Again, I am coming from a practical standpoint, in a church life setting. You may not be meaning to discourage anyone but I have found both in my own family and in a church fellowship setting that this line of thinking and teaching usually is very discouraging for those who are weak in their faith and maturing at a less than desirable rate. Paul tells us in Gal 5 that we are still have a flesh, even after we are born of the Holy Spirit. If we are not mortifying our flesh and are NOT being strengthened by the Spirits working in us, then that earthly part of me (my flesh) can and will at times get the better of me and I will at times "fall into sin". This can and will happen with those who are born again. I love this site and I love the hard preaching and teaching but I also have come to learn that we must “go and learn mercy” as it pertains to walking with my brothers and sisters in Christ. The Lord has not equipped us with a special ability to discern who has the Spirit and who does not. Holy Spirit "ultrasounds" have not been invented yet, but when they are I will be the first to buy one

I don't believe in evolutional regeneration. A sinner does not slowly evolve over years into a Saint. When something is born it's all there, nothing lacking.

I would hate to be a member of any church that took that view towards its people. What ever happened to "growing in grace"? People grow and mature at different rates naturally and it is the same thing spiritually.

I cannot settle for some lesser thing when God has revealed in His word His design. So I refuse to 'advocate' anything less than what God wants in man. I'm not going to call a sinner a Saint (regenerated) because they believed a few points of doctrine and can recite the apostles creed or something.

"We refuse to advocate"? Who are we to advocate anything in another person? We are not another mans God…we do not know when, if and how another man has been born from above. This is all well and good as doctrine, but from a practical standpoint if we take this view with our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ we will do far more damage than good.

So I see genuine repentance and faith as essential to justification. Some would call this being 'born again', but I see this as conversion. As in, repent ye therefore and be CONVERTED that your sins may be blotted out. I then see the next step as the "times of refreshing coming by the Spirit of God."

I really do believe that you are confusing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit UPON born again believers in the book of Acts. Ironically I was the one to start this thread and have now come to see this in abundant, resounding clarity. To suggest otherwise and to then relate this to the modern day believer, is to wade into dangerous territory that will confuse many believers and create in them, a sense that they need to strive for an Acts outpouring experience in order to be born again. And if we do that, we will lead them to believe that they are merely justified and not born again, and as such “cannot enter the Kingdom of God”.

It is a brave man who can suggest such a thing to another believer, that they have not yet entered the Kingdom of God unless they have had certain “experiences”.

In Him,
Mark

J
jochbaptist

"1) Do you think the disciples became born again of the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them? Or were they already born again, or did this happen on the day of Pentecost?"

They were already born again.
As was Adam, Seth, Enoch, .. Noah,... Abraham, Isaach, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, .... the prophets, David, etc.

eg.- Zacchaeus - Luke 19:9.And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.

S
sermonindex

A good question to ask now is, How did the OT saints get into heaven if they were not born again?

S
sermonindex

Robert said

I do not believe in schizophrenic Saints. I am not saying that discourage anyone, I just don't believe in it. Paul said, "we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit dwells in us." A person cannot be in Adam and in Christ at the same time.
If I may speak for my brother, I think what he is referring to is WHO WE ARE NOW.

We are getting our wires crossed that when we 'sin' we are in the flesh. We do not cease to be in Christ when we sin. This what I believe Robert is saying.

We are not Schizophrenic in that we are one minute in Christ or in the Spirit and another minute we are in the flesh. Though Paul does say that we are carnal when we think carnally minded thoughts, but that doesn't change our standing in God as being in Christ.

Paul's words it this way, Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you....

"If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you". This is an important sentence, it defines who we are in Christ Jesus, not because we fall into sin from time to time.

The beginning of chapter 8 is showing those that are born again the differences of being in Adam and being the in second Adam. We are either one or the other. We are either spirit or we are flesh.

When we were baptized in His Spirit, or into the kingdom of God, we ceased to be old Adam, we now are Christ. By being in Christ, our lives are hid in Him and our identity now is Christ.

If we sin, we do not stop being Spirit and become flesh, we have an advocate with the Father to purge us from all unrighteousness.

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/10/29 9:19:53

A good question to ask now is, How did the OT saints get into heaven if they were not born again?


They didn't and it has been discussed adnausm as to why.__

C
Croref

by jochbaptist on 2012/10/29 9:07:45

"1) Do you think the disciples became born again of the Spirit when Jesus breathed on them? Or were they already born again, or did this happen on the day of Pentecost?"

They were already born again.
As was Adam, Seth, Enoch, .. Noah,... Abraham, Isaach, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, .... the prophets, David, etc.

eg.- Zacchaeus - Luke 19:9.And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.

Negative. Impossible, __and that has been discussed adnausm, as well.

R
RobertW

Hi Awakened,

Are you referring to when you preach? I would like to hear how this pans out practically in body life. How else do you go about "refusing to let them think they are born again"? Do you examine them? Can you give me an example of how you have done this recently?

What I mean here, is that I refuse to comfort folks with false assurances. I examine no one. I don't tell people they are saved. I set before them the word of God and allow them to reckon with it on their own.

Again, I am coming from a practical standpoint, in a church life setting. You may not be meaning to discourage anyone but I have found both in my own family and in a church fellowship setting that this line of thinking and teaching usually is very discouraging for those who are weak in their faith and maturing at a less than desirable rate.

It is a difficult matter to navigate, but I think we have to preach the Gospel as it is. I would continue to encourage folks to go on with God until they come into the fulness of all that God has for them. But this is why I place such a strong focus and emphasis on justification by Faith. Paul establishes this before he tells us anything significant about New Birth. He preaches justification in such a way that if he were to stop right there in Romans 5 people would think he was saying, "let us continue in sin that grace may abound." We have to preach it that strongly or people will despair of life thinking they are saved by an experience or a certain level of spiritual growth. If a person has truly repented and turned to trust Christ in genuine faith- in my theology they are 'justified by faith'.

It is important that what I am saying is taken as a whole lot and not piece mail. The moment my theology gets mixed with someone elses we are bordering on some type of heresy.

Paul tells us in Gal 5 that we are still have a flesh, even after we are born of the Holy Spirit

If this means we still have a sinful nature I would not concur. We still have a human nature that is subject to temptation in this present evil world, but I don't believe Christians have two essential natures.

I really do believe that you are confusing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit UPON born again believers in the book of Acts. Ironically I was the one to start this thread and have now come to see this in abundant, resounding clarity. To suggest otherwise and to then relate this to the modern day believer, is to wade into dangerous territory that will confuse many believers and create in them, a sense that they need to strive for an Acts outpouring experience in order to be born again. And if we do that, we will lead them to believe that they are merely justified and not born again, and as such “cannot enter the Kingdom of God”.

I understand your concerns very well. The problem on the opposite end is that we would give folks the impression that they have received something that they have not. Paul asked people, he did not tell them. He told them to examine themselves. We have to be free from the temptation and compulsion to assure people of their salvation. It has been going on for about a hundred years now, but it is not the way the Gospel used to be preached. This is why when a person used to come to Christ they were said to "have found comfort in the prayer" or were "hopefully converted." It was under Billy Sunday's ministry that the language of 'got saved' came into vogue. God was always allowed to be the one to assure folks of their salvation. It was the ministers who would preach messages such as "Marks of the New Birth" to give folks an idea of what they should expect when they were truly born from above. Hope that helps a bit. Blessings.

C
Croref

by awakened on 2012/10/29 9:04:11

Hi brother Robert,
First of all, thank you for your in depth and very helpful writings, I really appreciate it and agree with almost everything you write. However I do have some concerns.

I refuse to let people think they are born again that are moving in some lesser thing. It may make everyone comfortable...

Uncomfortable? This an understatement:) What context are you speaking of here...I am assuming when you say, "everyone" that this is in a church setting? Are you referring to when you preach? I would like to hear how this pans out practically in body life. How else do you go about "refusing to let them think they are born again"? Do you examine them? Can you give me an example of how you have done this recently?

The litmus test is this for you, and anyone you might ask in your church crowd:

"I love Jesus Christ and I love to talk about Him, don't you." [questions of that sort]

First ask it of yourself and if you can honestly answer yourself without a squeamish feeling, then ask it of them _one on one. There should be no difficulty in asking if you mean business. It is called giving your testimony. See how many 'Christian' friends you have left if you should discuss Jesus in their presence more than once. Watch as they gradually avoid you. You will be alone___guaranteed.

S
sermonindex

A good question to ask now is, How did the OT saints get into heaven if they were not born again?
Answer: They didn't and it has been discussed adnausm as to why.
The word "Adnausm" must be Latin, as there is no definition online. Anyway...

I wanted a response not because I didn't know, I just wanted an answer.

If they were not born again but made it to heaven, than we can assume that those that have been justified by faith in the New Testament who have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to bring them into the new birth as being saved.

Now, if those OT saints were saved without being born again, why is it important to be born again since we can get in by faith? If it works for the OT saints why not for us?

R
RobertW

Approved wrote"If we sin, we do not stop being Spirit and become flesh, we have an advocate with the Father to purge us from all unrighteousness."

This is indeed what I believe. We have the Blood of Christ as payment for any sins committed that would put our covenant with God in jeopardy. This is the great thing about the New Covenant. God can call us to this great realm while keeping us cleansed by the Blood of Christ the whole time.

For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (Hebrews 12)

We can go on with God in this great New Covenant without the perpetual fear of damnation if we slip up. If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us, etc. If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So my focus is not humanistic, that is to say, I am not primarily focused on what man desires, but what God desires. God wants sons and has given us all we need pertaining to that end. If I were working for man I would focus on man's interests (saved from hell primarily); but I'm focused totally on what the Lamb of God has purchased, so that He gets fully what He has purchased and that His will in the Saints and the churches of God is carried out. Hope that clarifies a bit. Blessings.

S
sermonindex

Hope that helps a bit. Blessings.
You have no idea Brother!!

C
Croref

They didn't make it to Heaven until Jesus made peace, by His Blood, in their behalf. cf Rom.5:1.

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/10/29 9:52:00

A good question to ask now is, How did the OT saints get into heaven if they were not born again?
Answer: They didn't and it has been discussed adnausm as to why.
The word "Adnausm" must be Latin, as there is no definition online. Anyway...

I wanted a response not because I didn't know, I just wanted an answer.

If they were not born again but made it to heaven, than we can assume that those that have been justified by faith in the New Testament who have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to bring them into the new birth as being saved.

Now, if those OT saints were saved without being born again, why is it important to be born again since we can get in by faith? If it works for the OT saints why not for us?

Our new birth is more about it being for God than it is for us. Traditional teaching doesn't teach much about that perspective, being wrapped up in their shallow perspective of salvation for millennia, absent everything else spoken of in the gospels and letters that declare there being much more to the cross than we have been given to major on..

S
sermonindex

Hi brother Robert,
Thank you for clarifying and answering my questions.

I believe we are on the same page about the other things you mentioned, giving people "false assurances" of salvation...very well put, thank you.

No, I am not suggesting that anyone who is born again, has two natures. But I am suggesting that we still have a flesh, we are not yet glorified and that this flesh has its own desires. I am able to live according to the Spirit by one and only one reason, and that is because Christ lives in me (by the Spirit). However, I am fallible because I am still flesh. One day my mortality will put on immortality and I will never have to be concerned with crucifying or mortifying (considering it dead) the flesh. Until then, we discipline ourselves to yield continuously to the Holy Spirit, who is in us.

Regarding the Holy Spirit. This is a vast subject that we cannot even begin to exhaust in this thread.

My view is that a person is born again at salvation (justification) and I now come to believe that you hold a different view.

My view also is that there is another experience that is referred to as the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" and this is for born again believers. I have now come to believe that you do not hold to this same view. We can respectfully disagree with each other and still have wonderful fellowship in the Lord though!!!

I also believe that we are to continually seek for re-fillings of the Holy Spirit Eph 5. Experimentally I have found that this is akin what Paul speaks of in Eph 3, "to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man..." I have never been able to sin when I am full of the Holy Spirit. But when I have been overly-busy or distracted or allowed my walk with the Lord to become dry (yes it has happened!)...then I am far more prone to falling into sin. I don't believe that is a sign that I am not born again, or have even lost my salvation...but it is a sign that I am resisting the working of the Holy Spirit in my life and am "slowing down" His process of conforming me to the image of Christ. I am still moving towards my destination, albiet much slower than the Lord wants me to. The key then is to remain, always surrendered to the Holy SPirit, knowing that unless I allow Him to work in me, I have no hope of ever coming to full maturity in Christ...changed from one glorious working of the Spirit in me, to the next.

It is a joy to converse with you brother Robert, you have refreshed my soul and I have learned much from you!!!

In Him,
Mark

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/10/29 9:52:00

A good question to ask now is, How did the OT saints get into heaven if they were not born again?
Answer: They didn't and it has been discussed adnausm as to why.
The word "Adnausm" must be Latin, as there is no definition online. Anyway...

I wanted a response not because I didn't know, I just wanted an answer.

If they were not born again but made it to heaven, than we can assume that those that have been justified by faith in the New Testament who have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to bring them into the new birth as being saved.

Now, if those OT saints were saved without being born again, why is it important to be born again since we can get in by faith? If it works for the OT saints why not for us?
My word "Adnausm" notwithstanding, I ask, from the scriptures, what is required of one for salvation? Note: I did NOT ask what they received but only what was required of them?

S
sermonindex

Approved wrote:

We do not cease to be in Christ when we sin.

I don't think anyone believes on this thread or is saying this or has their wires crossed. But it is a fact that born again believers who are "in Christ" can and will and do in fact sin. Or do some here believe that it is not even possible for a born again person to sin?

We are not Schizophrenic in that we are one minute in Christ or in the Spirit and another minute we are in the flesh.

Again, this is a straw man...an argument constructed that no one is making, that can then be knocked down to make another point. No-one is suggesting this, that they can be in Christ and then out of Christ. That would be ludicrous.

Paul's words it this way, Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you..."If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you". This is an important sentence, it defines who we are in Christ Jesus, not because we fall into sin from time to time.

I agree with this, that we are defined by our birth...we are born of the Spirit, therefore as Paul writes, "you are in or of the Spirit".

We are either one or the other. We are either spirit or we are flesh.

Okay now we are getting down to it. Now this statement can very easily confuse people. Especially, young believers. Is my body made of Spirit or flesh? Are my eyes Spirit or flesh? Flesh of course. And because the members of my body are flesh, they have fleshly desires. My inner man though is born again and is of the Spirit. These two "things" then are in opposition to each other. On the one hand I have a flesh, but on the other I am born again and are of the Spirit. "For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

What am I to do? To say that my flesh no longer exists? To say that I can no longer sin? To say that I am ONLY Spirit and no longer have a flesh?

Of course not! We are NOT Spirit only, therefore we are called to WALK in the Spirit rather than WALK in the flesh. Paul further tells us that those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live (are born) of the Spirit, let us also WALK by the Spirit.

We are not robots, we have a choice. We can yield to our flesh and WALK in it, or we can crucify it, and WALK by the Spirit.

My reason for posting this is not to argue with anyone but to hopefully help those younger believers believers who might be getting confused about these matters.

In Him,
Mark

R
RobertW

Hi Awakened,

It is a joy to converse with you brother Robert, you have refreshed my soul and I have learned much from you!!!

I enjoy talking about these great things as it is the passion of my heart to see folks come into the fulness of all that Christ has done. I appreciate everyone, though we obviously see things differently, maintaining a Christ-like spirit through it all. Blessings.

R
RobertW

I truly hope everyone will take a little time to take a look at Ron Bailey's article that I posted a while back in this thread. It was first published in these forums about 6 or 7 years ago. No matter where you come down on this subject I promise you it will be an enriching read. It would be like someone giving you a much needed key to unlocking the New Testament. Blessings.

L
letsgetbusy

This is an interesting topic and one that I enjoy. I don't enjoy the bitterness that sometimes comes along, but it is one of those topics that makes sure we don't get a complete grip on how God works, in my opinion. Just like John the Baptist being filled with Spirit from the womb.

1) I think at Pentecost, all or the majority were already born again. (I bet there was someone that got saved, though)

I think believers have always received the Spirit as soon as they believe, even in the Old Testament. 1 Peter 1:11 says of the Old Testament saints that the Spirit of Christ was "in them". (KJV)

Wycliffe 1395: spirit of Crist signyfiede in hem
Tyndale 1525: sprete of Christ which was in them
Coverdale 1535: sprete off Christ that was in them
Bishop's 1568: spirite of Christ which was in them
Geneva 1587: Spirite...of Christ which was in them
AV 1611: Spirit of Christ which was in them
Wesley 1755: Spirit of Christ which was in them

2) I think the Ephesians were already converted before Paul wanted Christ to be formed in them, but I don't know, and I am not sure that it really matters. I don't think Paul knew for sure. Remember that Judas fooled his prayer partner when they went out 2 by 2, not to mention the other 10; "is it I, Lord?"

But I know I was converted and had some major work to be done even in those first few months (pornography, alcohol, doctrine, etc). When I was saved, I was still not clear on the deity of Christ; just like the blind man who was healed: "Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see." I would say that Christ was in me, but still needed to be formed in me, but I could be wrong. Just like you can have Christ but not be full of Him, I think you can have Him, but you need some work on what you have.

3) I think his intended audience was born again, but I don't worry about whether they would have missed the boat (okay I do worry sometimes for people being saved, but through a lack of faith). I believe in election, because the Bible explains election (I'm not a 5-pointer, either). The Bible says it, so it is so. So I believe the one who does not have the Spirit goes to hell. I believe the case of someone who "would have believed" dying before God could get to them is not an issue with Him. His sheep hear his voice. Isaiah (and Matthew) talk about how Jesus did not strive, quench burning flax, or break a bruised reed. He didn't run around trying to reach people in just the nick of time. He just fulfilled His ministry because He knew He would lose none that the Father had given Him. This is the same One who created the universe, I don't think He is stressing over reaching people in time before they kick the bucket. I don't think it is important that we understand the details of how that works with our earthly brains.

I take the following quote seriously:

"And I’ll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, “My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.”

“In Pursuit of God” – The Life of A.W. Tozer, James L. Snyder p132

...great topic, thanx for bringing it up!

C
Croref

"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1:10,11 (KJV)

The fact they "prophesied" of Christ for us, does not mean they themselves had what was reserved for us who might be born again of Him. They could not have it.

S
sermonindex

brother or sister "letsgetbusy"...whatever your name is...WOW, WOW, WOW!!! I am just slackjawed, and that rarely happens with me. Thank you so, very, very much for your post. I am incredulous, it was so spot on - every last bit of it, I am struck with a profound sense of understanding of the things of God and encouraged to WALK in Him and with Him...especially the last quote about A.W. Tozer!!!

May the Lord richly bless you!!!

In Him,
Mark

R
RobertW


"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Peter 1:10,11 (KJV)

The fact they "prophesied" of Christ for us, does not mean they themselves had what was reserved for us who might be born again of Him. They could not have it.

Just so we keep our lines of communication clear, there were times when people in the O.T. were filled with the Spirit, however, this is not at all the same thing as being Baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit so that one could be found 'In Him'. John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb and was as great as the greatest of all OT Saints or prophets. but the LEAST in the Kingdom of God was going to be greater than he. Why? Because the New Covenant was not yet in force that brought with it the possibility of being a partaker of the Divine Nature.

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:12)

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

They that are truly have been Baptized into Christ by the Spirit have been plunged into His death. And in that He died, He died unto sin once. It is because He died to SIn and we are IN Him that we are likewise dead to Sin.

And because HE is the Resurrection and the Life- we are IN the Resurrection and Life and He is Jesus Christ. We don't have to guess what the Disciples experience with the Holy Spirit was because Jesus explained it: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:17)

1. You KNOW Him
2. He is WITH you
3. Shall be IN you

So we must not confuse the filling of the Spirit prior to Baptism in the Holy Spirit because Christ had not Himself yet accomplished death to Sin, etc., and He had not yet began to build His Body; that is, The Temple of His Body The Church. This is why Paul could say IF any man be in Christ, he/she is a New Creature; old things have passed away and the new has come. Only in a figure were these things shown in the OT. God was building towards this great event in Acts 2. It was more awesome than when the Tabernacle or Solomon's temple was glorified. God came into men.

God
God came
God came INTO
God came into MEN

The whole Old Testament is a clinic of preparation for this great event. Paul said it, "Do you not know that you are the Temple of the Holy Spirit?" This is the great emphasis of Paul. It was the message of Stephen. Blessings.

S
sermonindex

As much as I have enjoyed the intellectual discussion, the best comment/quote of this entire thread and the one that should give us the greatest pause:

"My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.”

“In Pursuit of God” – The Life of A.W. Tozer, James L. Snyder p132

S
sermonindex

I pray that this testimony will give some substance to the claim that being born again is not something that can happen and yet go unnoticed by the recipient. Also why God sometimes sovereignly works so as to give a clarity that is unshakable. This is to bear witness to His perfect will for all men.


Laid on my bed in Stafford Goal on the 10th May 1984, my cell was suddenly and unexpectedly filled with the presence and knowledge of The Father. I cried out “Father I am sorry I didn’t know you were real.” Then I burst into tears and wept with joy and thankfulness. My very first question to the Father was “Father if you are God who is Christ? Two hours later I emerged from my cell and went to my job sowing mailbags. All I could do was bear witness of God and Christ. When I returned to my cell for the evening I began to commune with The Father and asked many questions. As I lay down to sleep all I could do was say over and over again, Father thank you”.


One moment I was awake facing the wall of my cell, and the next moment I was sitting on The Lord’ knee with my head against His chest. I could see the white of His garment and His hand was stroking the top of my head. I knew with certainty that this was The Lord Jesus. He was the same in substance as The Father. I slept like a child. A few days later I was writing at my desk about the Lord’s sufferings in the garden before His arrest I was grieved and began to cry, then I realized that it was The Holy Spirit Who made it possible for me to “see” into this time in the garden as though I were a witness of it. My outward vision disappeared and I found myself looking into the face of one who was Holy whose appearance was as light. This acknowledgement of the reality of the person of The Holy Spirit was filled with the same comprehension and substance as The Father and The Son. In an attempt to preserve the meaning of what was given to me I wrote the following few words.


In fruit there is seed and in seed there is tree, thus with the new life, where One there is three.


On the third day after conversion at 5:00 PM the presence of God left me and I cried out with a sense of terrible loss. After a few moments I became “normal” again. The realization as to the meaning of Hell hit me with full force. To have known the reality of God and then to become separated from Him was for a moment unbearable. I understood that one day all men will face Christ and in the knowledge of His true character and majesty every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that He is Christ to the glory of the Father. Then those who are to go unto separation will go unto separation. It is written that except a man is born again he cannot see God. Such a reality necessitates that every soul of man is shaken and pressed with the gospel and with the truth concerning Christ’ sufferings and resurrection. It is better to be misunderstood for a lifetime than to allow anyone who is set before us to pass out of this life without new life. It is a matter of absolute necessity that we press all men to a true and full comprehension of this reality.


Praise God in the heavens and let all the earth rejoice in His Name!

It is possible to know God and Christ by The Holy Spirit in such a way that it cannot be gainsaid even if that appears impossible to the natural mind. No matter how we come by such knowledge whether by tears or by God’s infinite and unfathomable mercy it must become the portion of all men. We cannot sneak into the Kingdom of Heaven. Nor can we be in the Kingdom and not know it. It is impossible. Neither can we have eternal life and not bear fruits of life.

Though I have had other similar blessings I have had no second blessing or outpouring. All came in an instant of time. By God's grace this one moment brought every good gift of The Father, Christ The Son and The Spirit Who is Lord.

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/29 13:52:31

So we must not confuse the filling of the Spirit prior to Baptism in the Holy Spirit because Christ had not Himself yet accomplished death to Sin, etc., and He had not yet began to build His Body; that is, The Temple of His Body The Church. This is why Paul could say IF any man be in Christ, he/she is a New Creature; old things have passed away and the new has come. Only in a figure were these things shown in the OT. God was building towards this great event in Acts 2. It was more awesome than when the Tabernacle or Solomon's temple was glorified. God came into men.

Help me out here, Bro. I see this mentioned many times in the OT: "And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, . . ". but other than JTB, which was a very unique occurrence for a very unique reason, when was anyone filled with the Holy Spirit before Jesus when, not even Mary was that and she gave birth to Him? Thank you.

R
RobertW

Hi CroRef,

Help me out here, Bro. I see this mentioned many times in the OT: "And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him, . . ". but other than JTB, which was a very unique occurrence for a very unique reason, when was anyone filled with the Holy Spirit before Jesus when, not even Mary was that and she gave birth to Him? Thank you.

In my understanding of the scriptures that folks were only ever filled with the Spirit to accomplish a certain purpose of God. We have some examples:

Ex. 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

Ex. 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Ex. 35:31 And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;

Deut. 34:9 And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

I take it that these 'fillings' were for the service of God. Prophets were moving in the Spirit of Christ and often the prophet was speaking an experience that was actually Christ. This is why it is said that "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Even craftsmen were filled with the Spirit to accomplish their respective jobs.


The closest thing to Baptism in the Spirit in the Old Testament was when the Glory of God would come upon the Temple at its dedication. This is a very powerful truth. Solomon understood the altar. He watched the glory come and the fire fall. How did it play out. I hope you don't mind me sharing an article right here that I wrote some time ago. It deals with how God was working twords Acts 2 in types and shadows.

Taken from here: http://realrevival.blogspot.com/2012/05/key-to-fire-of-god-robert-wurtz-ii-w.html
__________________
The Key to the Fire of God
Robert Wurtz II


When we truly understand what God has done in Christ we are awed. To think that God could have given up on this sin-sick world and yet had a plan of redemption from the beginning. It was a mystery that had been hid from before the world began. (Romans 16:25) Can we comprehend such things? Do we long to understand them that we might love God rightly so as to fully give ourselves to Him? Paul brings us to this great question in Romans 12:1.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. (Romans 12:1)

Romans 12:1 is the altar-call if you will of the book of Romans. Both passages remind us of what the old Bible teachers used to say; ‘when you see a therefore (wherefore) you need to stop and see what it is there for.’ The ‘therefore’ in Romans 12:1 turns our attention to 11 chapters of salvation theology (soteriology). Paul has described the great work of salvation bringing sinners back into relationship with Himself by faith and setting them free from sin. This is line upon line and precept upon precept. He calls us to bring all of what he has said to that point before our minds for consideration. He then says, I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice.

An Imaginary Line

When I read the book of Romans there is an imaginary line splitting Romans 11:36 and Romans 12:1. I draw this line because I believe Paul draws this line. For eleven chapters he gives us the closest thing we have to a systematic theology. He probes the mysteries of the Gospel and sets before us soteriology. He transitions with a simple phrase, I beseech you therefore. It is a term that means 'consequently.' Therefore (Gk. oun) is an inferential participle that gathers up all the great argument of chapters 1-11 and places it before us. We have to reckon with it. What say you? It staggers the mind to consider the manifold wisdom of God. Now Paul turns to exhortation (parakalō), “I beseech you.”

I Beseech You

Our Greek word for beseech is Παρακαλῶ (parakalō) and it means to call alongside. Para is 'side' and kalo is 'call'. It carries the idea of urging someone earnestly to do something. It could be translated 'to beg.' To give a sense of the strength of the word we have some examples of its use throughout the New Testament. Urgent appeals (parakalō) to Christ for healing are made in Matthew 8:5; 14:36; Mark 1:40; 5:23; 8:22. Paul “pleads with” (parakalō) God for the removal of his “thorn in the flesh” in 2 Corinthians 12:8. Demons “beg” (parakalō) Christ to send them into a herd of swine in Matthew 8:31ff. In Acts 2:40 and 2 Corinthians 5:20, people are “urged” (parakalō) to be reconciled to God.

Therefore by the Mercies of God

Paul has effectively came alongside us to beg, urge, beseech us by the mercies of God. That is to say, all that Paul described from chapter 1-11 was a clinic on God's great mercy. Consider where we would be without grace. We would have no hope and would of all men be most miserable. Eternity without propitiation would be to face the wrath of God without mixture never-endingly. Consider the smoke of a sinners torment ascending up before God forever and ever. That's what we deserved. This is not something we should accept and then wipe our mouths as if we have done no evil. The sheer magnitude of our crimes, heightened by the light that we have sinned in, aggravated by a life of resisting the Holy Spirit, would paralyze one with fear if they had any sense at all. Yet God has chosen to cast our sins behind His back- never to be remembered against us again. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice...

The Language of Priesthood

Words and concepts in the Bible have powerful histories. When a word is used in the New Testament we often can benefit by going back and understanding how that word was used in the Old Testament, beginning with its first use. To understand Romans 12:1 we need to recognize that Paul is using the language of priesthood when he speaks of offering our bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God. Solomon was the great king that built God a house (temple) where the priestly service could be performed in Judaea. Israel had sinned and lost the Ark of the Covenant in battle. It had been retrieved and brought back into the area by David the king. This event so excited David, that he danced before the Lord with all of his might. He wanted to build a house for the Lord, but God told him he could not because he was a man of blood. The project came to Solomon, David’s son by Bathsheeba. He built it on the mount of the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite- where the angel had stayed his hand in slaying thousands after David numbered Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1-18) This is instructive. God could have wiped Israel off the face of the earth and been justified in doing it; but God showed kindness and grace to Israel. David remembered the mercy of God as He could have slew everyone down to the last man, but stopped at Araunah's threshing floor. David responded by buying the property with his own money. Araunah tried to give it for free to David. King David said, Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price: for I will not take that which is thine for the LORD, nor offer burnt offerings without cost. (1 Chrononicles 21:1ff) This event will be etched into Israel’s consciousness as a people so that when they think of this mount they will remember what took place. Here are two initial pictures; one of the mercy of God and the other a right response of a grateful heart; a burnt offering that ‘costs’ the full price. It can also be viewed as a picture of God’s separation (threshing) of wheat from chaff. When we consider this event we have to ask ourselves, what will I do with God's mercy? How will I respond to grace? We have David as a pattern. All of these questions are here. This is the place where Solomon built the Temple. We will need to keep that in mind as we think of Romans 12:1.

A Picture of a ‘Right’ Response to God

It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD; So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God. (2 Chronicles 5:13)

You will notice that their first response to God was to give thanks for His mercy in returning to the people with His authority and presence. They didn't deserve God. They deserved abandonment. In another place it is stated that they spoke as one as the Ark of the Covenant came in. They sang and shouted with lifted up voices in such a way that God saw fit to fill the house with His glory. This was the initial step. The people utterly recognized God’s mercy and desire for reconciliation and they responded to Him in tremendous excitement and thanksgiving. The LORD, then being well pleased, FILLED the house with His glory. So great was the glory of God that the priests were not able to stand to minister. God believed the people as they praised and offered thanksgiving and He responded by filling the house with His glory.
Holy and Acceptable

...present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,

Here we have ‘holy, acceptable…’ This, again, is the language of priesthood. Understand that we cannot offer our bodies as an offering for sin. God the Father in offering His Son Jesus Christ has already paid that price. Our holy offering is an act of worship and service. You will know that we are called to be temples of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is holy and we must be holy. We have here in a figure our bodies being both the temple and the sacrifice. The High Priest would examine the sacrifice for blemishes, etc. Moreover, the Old Testament is replete with examples of how not to treat the holy temple of God and the artifacts within it. We should ask, were these things written for Israel's sake alone or where they not all together a figurative lesson for us, that would have the habitation of God by the Spirit? All those things were merely a figure of the truth. What can we learn about Belshazzar’s treatment of the holy vessels? How did God react to the way he defiled the artifacts of the Temple? The whole story is exemplary. It reveals God's estimation of abusing our bodies in sordid sin. We are called to be holy.

Reasonable Sacrifice

Solomon built and dedicated the Temple to God. It had one primary purpose in Israel; to be a place where the people could encounter God and offer up sacrifices to Him (temple cultus). Here the Old Covenant was serviced to keep that agreement in play when it had been broken. When Solomon originally dedicated it there were over 120,000 burnt sacrifices inspected for purity and acceptability and then offered. Solomon understood that until the altar was full of a holy and acceptable sacrifice the Fire of God would not fall and the dedication would be incomplete. After all, Moses already told of how empty it would be to exist as God's people without God being present. To some it may have seemed very reckless to bring a river of blood upon such a beautiful place; but to Solomon it was only reasonable to make such an offering to God in light of the mercy He had shown the people. When the altar was full and Solomon prayed- the Fire of God fell. This dedication was a ‘picture’ of New Testament life. Jesus came to send Fire on the earth and He would do so by baptizing His people with the Holy Ghost and with Fire. Men and women’s bodies would become temples of the Holy Spirit. We will need to revisit this crucial facet of the Christian life in our next chapter.

A Living Burnt Offering

Romans 12:1 is the beginning of all evangelistic efforts. Paul having explained the reality of what God has done in bringing salvation and reconciliation to man, says, “I beseech you therefore by the mercies of God…” Thinking of all that God has done; ‘therefore’ present your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God which is your logical (the consequence of his well reasoned arguments) worship. This presenting of ourselves to our Great High Priest for inspection and acceptance that He might baptize us in the Fire of the Spirit is our reasonable worship. It’s the only response that makes sense in light of all that God has done. It is what God wants first and foremost. Without this process little else matters. It all begins here with a recognition of what God has done in Christ, and our responding reasonably to what we realize. Our lives are to be a perpetual living burnt offering for Him. It is the only thing that makes sense.

The Fire of God

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. (Matthew 3:11)

It is unfortunate that many today in the churches of God believe that we can lower the standard and get by on some lesser thing than the Fire of God. In fact, this is no new situation; for Jesus said, "I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled!" (Luke 12:49) The context reveals that this Fire was going to cause great division in the earth; between those that want the Fire and those that do not (Luke 12:50-52). This is of the greatest importance. To speak of Christianity without speaking of Fire is like speaking of swimming without water. Nevertheless, the Fire of God continues to be a most unpopular subject. Speak on grace and a multitude will amen. Speak on hell and peradventure some in the crowd will amen. Speak on the fire of God and the voices fall almost silent. Why? Because when the Fire comes, it will burn up everything in a person that is not of God and I dare say many wish to retain yet a measure of themselves even making excuses for their lack of godliness. Many are caught up in sin and compromise, but refuse to come to God for help. As the old timers have said, the answer to our spiritual problems is almost always the Fire of God. A person on fire for God is not having trouble loving their neighbor or going to the sin dens. God’s holy love burns all of that out until we are consumed with Him. The question we have to ask in these things is the question of Jesus, "Wilt thou be made whole?" If so, you will need the Fire of God.

Burning for God

We are told in Hebrews 12:29 that God is a consuming Fire. He created creatures that are burning fires such as the Seraphim. We as human beings are consuming fires. This is why we burn at 98.6 degrees. Where does this energy come from? It originates with the burning fire of the Sun. Plants turn this light, nutrients and water into carbohydrates. We eat the carbohydrates. There is a furnace characteristic in man where the carbohydrates are burned in us as a source of energy. The energy you are using to read this text originated with the Sun. But there is also a spiritual side of man that serves as the driving force behind all that he/she does. Adam Clarke comments on Matthew 3:11; “This was the province of the Spirit of God, and of it alone; therefore he is represented here under the similitude of fire, because he was to illuminate and invigorate (to give strength or energy) to the soul, penetrate every part, and assimilate the whole to the image of the God of glory.”

Priesthood

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God (Revelation 1:5, 6)

The believers at Ephesus were baptized in the Holy Spirit and with Fire. This event made them into the Temple of the Living God as an assembly and as individuals (1 Corinthians 3:16). On that day the believers were made priests unto God. This is a staggering truth. It was God's design from the beginning. He had been working to this end all along. This is the jest of the message of Stephen in Acts 7:1ff. God don't desire to dwell in temples made with hands; He desires to live in man. It is impossible to understand the Bible unless you realize this great truth. God wants to live in you. He wants to be who He is; a consuming Fire inside of you and me.

The burning bush and the burning man

When God got ready to reveal Himself to Moses He revealed Himself as an unconsuming fire; And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. (Exodus 3:2) He then revealed Himself as a consuming fire as in the case of Nadab, Abihu, Korah, Dathan and Abiram. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. (Deut 4:24.) God is a God of Fire. The picture of Fire as a symbol of the flesh-consuming presence of God is replete through the Old Testament.

Fire on the altar

All of the services that were to be performed in the Wilderness Tabernacle and later the Temple were to be done with the FIRE of God. It was impossible to light the lampstand, burn incense, or offer burnt offerings unto the Lord without the Fire that God kindled and was continually kept. Without the Fire of God the Wilderness Tabernacle was an empty tent. The fire shall ever be burning upon the altar; it shall never go out. (Leviticus 6:13) “Fire was to be kept constantly burning upon the altar without going out, not in order that the heavenly fire, which proceeded from Jehovah when Aaron and his sons first entered upon the service of the altar after their consecration, and consumed the burnt-offerings and peace-offerings, might never be extinguished (see at Lev. 9:24); but that the burnt-offering might never go out, because this was the divinely appointed symbol and visible sign of the uninterrupted worship of Jehovah, which the covenant nation could never suspend either day or night, without being unfaithful to its calling.” (Keil & D.)

Continually Burning

Indeed the priests were not allowed to let the heavenly Fire go out; this was common sense. But this is not specifically in view here. They could do nothing without the Fire of God. If that fire went out they could not strike a match, rub sticks together, or any other thing. God’s Fire was His sacred Fire. Leviticus 6:13 deals with the continual burnt offering of flesh unto God like unto Romans 12:1, 2. We are to be continually on Fire for God burning as a sweet smelling savor, as a consequence of our placing ourselves wholly, holy, and continually on the altar as a living sacrifice. "God will not dwell with people that will not burn upon the altar. He wants to live will the altar is." (G.W. North) What use to God is a man or a woman that will not burn for Him?

The God that answers by Fire

When Eli and his sons were derelict in the service of God they lost the Ark to the enemy. That Ark represented the throne or authority of God. The Fire obviously went out. David desired to build God a House, but to do so would require the Fire of God to fall from heaven to provide the priesthood with that essential element. They could not use a striker or a lighter. Nadab and Abihu learned the hard way that you don't presumptuously offer God anything; especially false or common fire. Their death was God's estimate of the behavior. It is shocking to me how today some move in such a cavalier attitude (dismissive attitude) towards something so serious. Without the Fire of God all that we do stinks and is useless to God.

You are dead without Fire

When our breath goes out, our body immediately starts to go cold. If the Fire of God goes out we become lukewarm and worth but to be vomited out of the mouth of Christ. Why? No burning. No Fire. If there is no Fire there is sin in our lives. God don't answer your sacrifice with Fire. Why? because it is not holy and acceptable to Him. Solomon understood the altar. He brought so much flesh they needed an alternate location to house it all. It was an extreme sacrifice. Solomon knew the altar had to be FULL. It had to be holy and acceptable. When he prayed the Fire of God came down and reinstated the priesthood providing them with the means of doing their service again, FIRE.
No Fire

Obviously by the time of Jesus this Fire had gone out and the Ark was gone again. The priests must have tossed the blood on the floor behind the veil in Herod's Temple and performed the services with common fire. God was not there. God was in Christ. For He said, destroy this Temple (speaking of His own body) and I will raise it again in 3 days. He called the place the Father's house and His house (Matthew 21:13, John 2:16), but at last He revealed to them that it was 'their house' that had been left unto them desolate. (Luke 13:35) Why? No Fire. No Ark. No way to do the service of God and no desire to have Him. When the Fire came in Christ; they didn't want it or Him. They had no desire to burn for God or to be temples of the Living God. They wanted to keep God under control in the temples made with hands. This is a constant temptation for anyone that has known the Lord; but God desires to live IN man and not in a building. Again, we will take this up in the next chapter.

Keeping the charge

And they burn unto the LORD every morning and every evening burnt sacrifices and sweet incense: the shewbread also [set they in order] upon the pure table; and the candlestick of gold with the lamps thereof, to burn every evening: for we keep the charge of the LORD our God; but ye have forsaken him. (2 Chronicles 13:11)

It is unfortunate that many today in the churches of God believe that we can lower the standard and get by on some lesser thing than the Fire of God. How can priests unto God do the service of God with no Fire? Jesus told Ephesus, Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Revelation 2:5 ESV) What good is a lampstand if there is no fire? What good is a church that is not burning for God? The question becomes, ‘what do you and I burn for?’ What do we love in such a way that we are burning for it? Maybe it is a person? Everyone is burning for something or someone. In the churches of God we must be burning for Christ. Yet substitutes are put in place that spread death and wreak of unconsumed flesh. Jesus said, "I came to cast fire on the earth, and would that it were already kindled!" (Luke 12:49) We are responsible to keep the Fire stoked in our lives as surely as were the Levites. We are to keep presenting ourselves to God holy and acceptable. What is acceptable? Simply put- And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. (Acts 5:32) Do you have a desire to obey God? Do you want God to rule and reign in you? Have you filled the altar? Those that have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and Fire- is the Fire still burning? Are you keeping the charge as did Abijah and his priests? This was the basis on which Abijah knew he would win the battle. "If you keep the charge of God, that is to say, if you will burn for God you will be the devil's master." (GWN)

The Curse of Firelessness

The greatest judgment that ever came to Israel was that the Fire of God went out. God withdrew His presence and they were eventually evicted from the land. When the lamp of the Lord goes out there is no way to keep the flesh in subjection- because the only way to walk upright in this fallen world is to keep on burning. The Seraphim burn, so must we. God is a consuming Fire- so are we. Are we content to allow this world to go on lamenting void of men and women of Fire- having never seen a true believer in the book of Acts sense? If the Fire be burning in us- we have confidence towards God. He must come. We must make ready. We must invite Him in an attitude of desire to obey. We have to present ourselves holy and acceptable. It is our reasonable service. If we sing to God with no Fire; it cannot be rightly said to be worship in Spirit. The incense does not rise to God unless there is Fire. Not the fire of hype and instrumentality. Not something worked up, but a Fire sent down from God. We must make ready. He has come to send Fire on the earth. Will we be the one? Will He be able to send us?

R
RobertW

I pray that this testimony will give some substance to the claim that being born again is not something that can happen and yet go unnoticed by the recipient. Also why God sometimes sovereignly works so as to give a clarity that is unshakable. This is to bear witness to His perfect will for all men.

Thanks for sharing this dear brother. It was a blessing.

R
RobertW

As much as I have enjoyed the intellectual discussion, the best comment/quote of this entire thread and the one that should give us the greatest pause:

"My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.”

“In Pursuit of God” – The Life of A.W. Tozer, James L. Snyder p132

Thanks for sharing!

C
Croref

Robert,

RE: Your OT references on the Holy Spirit cannot be considered to be in the same light as the Holy Spirit of the NT which could not be given - was not given - until after the glorification of Jesus. There are reasons for that having everything to do relationship to God as the OT saints could not experience. I do not mean to infer your passages do not point to the future but, no one in the OT had the privilege we have today.

When the lamp of the Lord goes out there is no way to keep the flesh in subjection- because the only way to walk upright in this fallen world is to keep on burning. The Seraphim burn, so must we.

Very true. I easily associate that with John 17:3, don't you?


God is a consuming Fire- so are we. Are we content to allow this world to go on lamenting void of men and women of Fire- having never seen a true believer in the book of Acts sense? If the Fire be burning in us- we have confidence towards God. He must come. We must make ready. We must invite Him in an attitude of desire to obey.

We have to present ourselves holy and acceptable. It is our reasonable service. If we sing to God with no Fire; it cannot be rightly said to be worship in Spirit. The incense does not rise to God unless there is Fire. Not the fire of hype and instrumentality. Not something worked up, but a Fire sent down from God. We must make ready. He has come to send Fire on the earth. Will we be the one? Will He be able to send us?

In all that is the reason I see the difference between being merely saved [our choosing] and being born again [His choosing]; being born again [His choosing] and our wearing of the priestly garment [the Holy Spirit Baptism of Christ Jesus]. AKA the Pentecostal enduement __for life, AKA "Fire".

Thank you.

PS. The below is a type of Holy Spirit Baptism requirement__and why:

"And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with LINEN garments; and no wool shall come UPON them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
They shall have linen bonnets UPON their heads, and shall have LINEN breeches UPON their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causes sweat." Ezekiel 44:17-18 (KJV)

Given the "Priestly garments of Linen" were for worshiping the Lord within the inner chamber, should not it also be supposed that the "coming upon, the clothing" of the Holy Ghost be for the same reason?

"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father UPON you: but tarry ye in [don't leave] the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued [CLOTHED] with power from on high. Luke 24:49 (KJV)


Wool = self__ To use your analogy--[no fire]
Linen = Holy Spirit__ [the only One Who has any fire]

UPON = No indwelling here.Again, to use your analogy


T
turn

Before the day of Pentecost...

...Abel obtained testimony that he was righteous.

...Enoch pleased God and was translated so that he did not see death.

...Noah was a just man in his generation.

...Job was described as perfect and upright.

...Abraham was justified by faith.

...Moses by faith was able to lead his nation across the Red Sea

...David was a man after God's own heart.

...Daniel blessed the God of heaven and was able to tell Nebuchnezzar about his dream and the interpretation.

...Nebuchadnezzar gave praise and testimony: How great are his signs and how mighty are his wonders.

In the New Testament Book of Luke...

...Zacharias was full of the Holy Ghost and prophesied (1:67)

...Simeon was a just and devout man who had the Holy Ghost upon him and who prophesied (2:25ff)

...the child, Jesus...grew and waxed strong in spirit (2:40).

The Holy Spirit can be given more than once.

The Holy Spirit was given on the day of Pentecost that the early Church might have power to be witnesses (Acts 1:8)...that they might live with a faith and power that overcomes fear and weakness. They needed that power then. Many of us need that power today.

C
Croref

Jesus was the FIRST indwelt by the Holy Spirit. His natural birth, by Him, being the "first of first fruits" is no different than that which given to those who follow Him, evidenced in the prescribed way.

". . . if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11 (KJV)


G
gators52

actually John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit in his mothers womb.. luke 1:15

C
Croref


by gators52 on 2012/10/30 5:33:36

actually John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit in his mothers womb.. luke 1:15

"Actually" was JTB the "first of First Fruits". "Actually", was JTB conceived by the Holy Spirit?

Sighting one Robin doesn't make it springtime.

S
sermonindex

"And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with LINEN garments; and no wool shall come UPON them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
They shall have linen bonnets UPON their heads, and shall have LINEN breeches UPON their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causes sweat." Ezekiel 44:17-18 (KJV)

Given the "Priestly garments of Linen" were for worshiping the Lord within the inner chamber, should not it also be supposed that the "coming upon, the clothing" of the Holy Ghost be for the same reason? Croref


Here is the better covenant Croref. Not the inner court of the temple made with hands and garments which pass away. But clothed before God which garment is eternal and which court is the presence of God. Where Satan is rebuked and the Branch which was promised is come. The Lord Bless You.

Zechariah Chapter three

3:1 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.
2 \tThe LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”
3 \tNow Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel.
4 \tHe spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” Again he said to him, “See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes.”
5 \tThen I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments, while the angel of the LORD was standing by.
6 \tAnd the angel of the LORD admonished Joshua, saying,
7 \t“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.

8 \t‘Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you—indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch.

C
Croref

. . . I'm done

R
RobertW

CroRef is out now, but I wanted to touch this aspect we may have missed.

Your OT references on the Holy Spirit cannot be considered to be in the same light as the Holy Spirit of the NT which could not be given - was not given - until after the glorification of Jesus.

I completely agree that the O.T. fillings of the Spirit were not the same as post Pentecost. My angle on it is that this is because the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is what places a person into Christ and enables them to be a partaker of the Divine Nature. It is my view that this is the point at which a person, In the words of Galatians 3:3, has 'begun in the Spirit.' There were fillings and anointing until that time, but they were always associated with Divine enablement to accomplish a 'certain task'. In other words, these were more comparable to the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, than with the fruit of the Spirit that was made possible at Pentecost.

I typically keep my eye on something John Baptist said,

And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Matthew 3:10)

Notice 'trees' is in the plural. Trees are symbolic of men (Isaiah 61:3, etc.). This squares with what the writer to the Hebrews stated Hebrews 6:8, But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.

A lot of people have done great miracles throughout the O.T., but I see the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as a means of getting folk out of Adam and into Christ in such a way that they are TRULY dead to Sin, buried with Him by baptism into death, not in the flesh, etc. (ed.) They that have BEGUN in the Spirit are enabled from that moment to be led of the Spirit so as to be sons of God.

I am not convinced that anyone pre-Pentecost could have walked in the reality I just described. If the 120 skip the upper room, we not only have a group without power, but we have totally missed the possibility of any man being a right representation of Jesus Christ, who was Beth-EL while on the earth. We have a lot os 'silent' things happening these days theologically that have no basis in scripture. We have silent born again experiences, raptures,etc., while all of these events are described as glorious, open, and laudable.

When Solomon's Temple was glorified everyone knew it. God had come. The King came in to take up His spot in the Temple. I can't possibly over emphasize this picture. Until the King comes and sits on His throne, in His Temple, then the Temple is not glorified. It is just an ordinary building. It was a magnificent event in Israel. The FIRE fell and the glory came. This is all a figure of the day Pentecost. Again, to tie these things together, Jesus defines REGENERATION saying,

And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

This is my working definition of Regeneration that I apply to Titus 3:5 and couple it with Acts 2:1. Hope that helps a bit. Blessings.

S
sermonindex

Brother Robert,
CroRef may be done, and I am also on my out but I have this to say in conclusion. I believe that CroRef was correct in his assessment of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and its purpose, but to labor the point seems to becoming fruitless here.

Brother Robert, what I "hear" you saying and I do not believe I am misunderstanding you at all, is this:

1. A person is baptized into Christ when they have the experience of book of Acts, which is commonly referred to as the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". We can parse those words a dozen different ways and share all the articles we want about this experience in the book of Acts, but it is dis-ingenious for us to ignore what millions, indeed billions actually believe to be the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". And not only billions today, but almost every single famous preacher on this very website, SermonIndex!!!

2. To take your thoughts to their logical conclusion, you are not far off stating that a person must be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to be saved??? Now, you have not come out and used those exact words, but careful reading of all that you have posted, infers much the same or at the very least brings a great deal of confusion to this subject.

3. You have also stated (unless I read it wrong) that a person can be saved (justified) but not yet born again. And the way they become born again is to be "baptized into Christ" which in your view is what the disciples received on the day of Pentecost. This is the most confusing thing I have ever heard. If I taught this to believers it would strike confusion and fear into their hearts. This is dangerous teaching.

4. You then go on to state that those people who become saved by faith are not yet born again by the Holy Spirit...that is step 2. This you say will be evident when they have a distinct experience akin to book of Acts experience on the day of Pentecost. Now you may not be saying that it has to be exactly like the day of Pentecost, but that is what I hear you inferring.

5. You then state that those saved people who are not born again are not actually a part of the Kingdom of God yet!!! Seriously, this is the most alarming statement of all. You provide wonderful teachings and articles to back it up, and do so in a nice, calm, Christlike manner, but that doesnt make it sound teaching. I am being this blunt because I fear some will come to this website and swallow this teaching and be thrown into fearful confusion.

6. Now, you do say, there is nothing to fear at all about this, because Jesus knows who His sheep are (predestined ones). And so if you are indeed saved, (are justified by faith), you are predestined to come into the Kingdom of God anyway and will come into the born again experience anyway...automatically it seems? So relax, you will be born again eventually. Now, I don't want bring up the C word, but that is what I am hearing. Sighhhhh....

Yes, sigh that was the sound of me letting out a long, resigning breath...lol. Because this is what seems to happen to these internet discussions…every single time. In fact I am probably done with forums completely after this…we will see.

May I suggest brother Robert that you (and all of us) turn off our computers, put away our theology books and take the advice of A.W. Tozer and lock ourselves away with God. Then after four years others can still be arguing about this, but we will have come to KNOW God and there will be no more wondering what it is exactly the Holy Spirit has done in our lives.

And with that, I too am bowing out of this thread, unless you implore me (and send me chocolates) to explain something that I may or may not have stated here.

Good night and God Bless!

Mark

R
RobertW

Hi Awakened,

May I suggest brother Robert that you (and all of us) turn off our computers, put away our theology books and take the advice of A.W. Tozer and lock ourselves away with God. Then after four years others can still be arguing about this, but we will have come to KNOW God and there will be no more wondering what it is exactly the Holy Spirit has done in our lives.

I hear what you are saying here, but you asked the question and I and others have tried to give our positions. We have been having these type discussions for a long time here in these forums. I understand that the masses are moving in different ideas, but I have also heard people on this site suggest that less than 5% of people are truly born of the Spirit. If you listen to L. Ravenhill he will say similar things. Many have have no fruit in their life though that have prayed a prayer and asked for forgiveness, etc.

So we have to ask ourselves what is wrong with our approach to evangelism, what it means to be 'born again' and what it means to be 'saved'. We already have had over 100 years of preachers telling people they are saved, a practice that has no precedent in previous centuries. This, in my view, is what is truly dangerous. We are living in a time when the primary concern is that folks have their sins forgive and if they have that they don't care about anything else.

So if we say that folks are born again, then we need to examine what that means. New Birth yield a fruit that we do not often see today. This is George Whitfield on the subject:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=20540

At the end of the day I don't really mind what order a person comes into New Birth, so long as we teach and achieve the real thing. I'm not afraid of this subject. I would rather people know the truth than to believe a lie. I'm looking at it from God's design, rather than man's desire to be forgiven. We have to. We may receive forgiveness of sins, but it is only so that we can go on with God and move in His will. If a person does not go on with God, when revelation and opportunity are afforded, it is hard for me to view them as being right with God. We are moving in a man-centered theology often times that seeks man's happiness, but God is wanting sons, sons that Christ does not have to be ashamed to call brethren. Hope that helps. Blessings.

M
murrcolr

I understand what Robert is trying to say

Quote: I see the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as a means of getting folk out of Adam and into Christ in such a way that they are TRULY dead to Sin, buried with Him by baptism into death, not in the flesh, etc. (ed.) They that have BEGUN in the Spirit are enabled from that moment to be led of the Spirit so as to be sons of God.

But I can also understand the difficulty in trying to piece it all together.

Small testimony.. It started when I asked God in a prayer to change me when I lay down on the bed a wind came and blew into my body then I sat up and spoke in lounges. Three months later I attend my first “church meeting” and from there start going to church and I got baptized in Water

A few years later after attending Bible school I leave the church for different reasons and haven’t been back to church since.

A few years later while seeking God during a time of fasting and prayer, God opened my eye to my condition that was within me. I saw that attached to my self was sin and it hadn’t been dealt with but through Duncan Campbell’s testimony and the testimony of another to let me know that there was a way out.

Please understand the church I attended wasn’t a church that promoted a second blessing and up to the point of hearing Duncan Campbell’s testimony I had never heard of it. It is not a doctrine introduced to me by a man.

So in my life it seems what God has done a things a bit differently, why I don’t know.

1.\tFilled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues
2.\tAttended Church
3.\tGot baptized
4.\tLeft church
5.\tFind out that within me attached to my self was sin and it hadn’t been dealt with and there was “A Baptism into Christ”

At the time and to this day I know I am alive to God, I know I was forgiven of my sins and I could talk in tongues and that the violent, drunk, drug taking womanizing fisherman was changed.

Now although I was changed and new it, when God began to talk to me about the calling on my life, when I considered what he was calling me to and looked at myself I used to think, God will have to do another work in me as I am just not ready for that. So in a sense I knew even then that there was something that remained in me that wasn’t Godly and it is something that brings shame to the Christian but I knew that I shouldn’t be like this but praise God he opened my eyes to the truth.

After digging through scriptures trying to piece it all together I have come to the conclusion that my first experience was not the Baptism into Christ, it was a forgiveness of sins, I was alive to God, I could take in tongues, I could and did operate in the gifts of the Spirit but Sin remained in me.

S
sermonindex

Whatever our experience or knowledge of God may be before we are born again; our understanding will be very different afterwards. We ought to find that what we understood before was ill conceived in our imaginations and that which we understood afterwards was the fruit of a new life. Before we get saved we can only truly comprehend in our natural minds. Afterwards we know the truth at least in part through our spirit’. The difference is a difference of life. If we once begin to say that salvation is comprehended in the natural mind then we will live in the mind only. On the other hand if we can accept that it is the spirit that is born of The Spirit our minds must in that arrangement become subordinate to our spirit’. If the mind is not subordinate we will continue to live in the natural mind. If the mind is subordinate then we will be renewed in our minds and find that we are able to keep ourselves some of the time soundly understanding God’s will, and at other times God Himself will keep us, because He soundly understands what we are yet in this body of sin. In the end we will even comprehend that if we are born again we have the mind of Christ as well as a renewing of the mind.

As far as I know everyone who has been born again bears witness to the fact that when in the spirit, they can think and speak as well as think and do, good works that are pleasing to God without any effort at all. At other times the mind and the body are a hindrance and the things that we say and the things that we do are fleshy and natural and disappointing. Yet we get up and confess our sins before God trusting that what we believed in the beginning is still true, even Christ crucified for our sins; believing in this precious truth we are draw into a fuller and more profitable understanding that apart from works, we are justified before God through the shed blood of Christ. To the unbelieving mind this covenant with God may be vulgar and a thing to be rejected. To others it is a thing to be believed in like a talisman of magical charm. To the one born again it is a constant reminder that we walk by faith and a thing to be laid hold of daily.


If we give thought to these things ourselves and yet make a separation in God’s will concerning Christ, (being in truth fully unified and complete in His person), we will not have draw lots for His garment to preserve it as the Roman soldiers did at the foot of the Cross; we will divide it. If we do not have this same attitude we will rip it to shreds and take that part which pleases us the most. How foolish to destroy the unity that is Christ and end up with a leg or an arm, when we could have had the whole garment. The soldiers at the foot of the cross, understood that the garment of the Lord was only worth having if it was had whole hence why they caste lots. If there were five of them, then they accepted in advance that four of them would have nothing. To divide The Lord’s garment would have rendered it useless. Its value lay in the fact that it was whole and of a good quality. The value of knowing Christ Jesus lies in the fact that it is His intention that in knowing Him we would become one body, an arm or a leg, or an eye or a hand, yes. But in Him one body even the church; many living stones one temple of The Living God. We ought not to divide to a heresy the unity that is in Christ Jesus’ sufferings and resurrection from the dead. Justification if comprehended ought to produce true repentance and newness of life by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Why or how some men understand this differently is certainly a result of not laying hold of the fullness and settling for the part. Perhaps some men were even led into this understanding. The remedy is in desiring the fullness and not the part.


Of course life is not a theological class. It is real and it has to be lived as it is presented to us or else however we find it. Now that we have believed it may well be that a fuller and unified understanding of what God has done in Christ Jesus will prove to be a key to understanding how to go on and how to finally put an end to our selfish lives and truly live for God. Can any one who believes in Christ have any other mind? Or doubt that The Father so intended it?

S
sermonindex

1. but it is dis-ingenious for us to ignore what millions, indeed billions actually believe to be the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". And not only billions today, but almost every single famous preacher on this very website, SermonIndex!!!
I could go along with that if I didn't have a radical mind to think the opposite.

When did the word of God become a democracy, where we get enough people to believe in a certain way and then we vote in a new set of rules for God to follow?

That sounds foolish I know, but gee whisakers, why does it look that way?

We are telling God when we are born again. We are telling Him when we are baptized into the Holy Spirit.

Just because every preacher on Sermon Index is saying that doesn't mean they are right. The reason why they all say the same thing is because it's a mystery to them. And a mystery to millions.

I personally am one of those believers that do not excuse verses that may cause me to think a different way. I know what it's like to be shaken up. I've been there where you stand before God with all that you know and He pulls the carpet out from under you and He strips off the clothes that I thought was truth and you stand there naked and ashamed. I do not wish that on anyone, but because I have been there, I would rather stay there naked than to endorse something that may or may not have any weight.

However, in saying all that. I know that if a man believes that he is born again by being justified by faith, than to him he is born again. There is no way that I can persuade him otherwise. As far as I am concerned he is saved by faith through grace. If he continues on in that way, God bless him, but that doesn't mean that he is born again.

There is a thought that I would like to interject though in another thread as an offshoot from this thread that may be of interest to some, as there may be a reason for those that are not born again but believe by faith and those that are born again by the Spirit of God. I think there might be an explanation but it will require much thought.

God Bless and thank you for sharing your thoughts........Brothers and Sisters!

T
twayneb

Wow! I was away from the computer for the weekend, and what a discussion.

Since I know a little bit about the Robert's roots, and since I am very close to those roots myself, I understand what he has been saying. Perhaps I can boil it down (and he can correct me if I misrepresent what he is saying).

I was raised from a doctrinal viewpoint that justification and regeneration (being born again) were two different events and , although they could happen simultaneously, they did not necessarily have to occur at the same time. Many early American Pentecostals believed this, as it was what Charles Parham, and subsequently Seymour taught. It was at Seymour's church in Calif. that a man by the name of Durham began to teach the finished work doctrine from which sprang, eventually, the Assemblies of God. This doctrine did not differentiate between justification and the born again experience. But the majority of the "old time" Pentecostals such as the Apostolic Faith (not the oneness people), the Church of God, the Pentecostal Holiness people, the Full Gospel churches, as well as others still held to what they considered the "more orthodox" teachings vein of teachings of Parham and Seymour.

As I was taught, a sinner could come to the Lord by faith in repentance of sin and be justified by faith. This meant that the person was justified in God's sight, but the person was not yet born again. To be born again, the person must pray through to, or receive the work of sanctification in his life. This was a second work of the Spirit of God and it gave the person a new nature and a power over sin. So justification dealt with past sins and their penalty, and regeneration (sanctification or being born again) dealt with the sin nature and made the man a new creature.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was a third work that empowered a man with the Holy Spirit of God so that he might have the power of God for ministry, boldness, etc.

I can recall as a youth hearing older ministers who knew and loved Charles Parham be pretty hard on the AoG. They felt like the AoG had gone into error in believing that sanctification was an ongoing work of the Spirit rather than a specific one-time work of the Holy Spirit that makes the believer Holy. I can recall the AoG mentioned in a not so friendly light several times. I even made a statement once that I did not agree with all that Parham taught. I did not mention any specific doctrine and an older minister immediately accused me of abandoning the doctrine of sanctification (of not believing that justification and regeneration were separate experiences).

A good deal of this doctrine, as far as I can tell, came out of Parham's Methodist roots. They believed in an event called the "second blessing". Research the Cain Ridge Revival in 1801 for some early instances of this teaching. In 1801 this "second blessing" was apart from salvation and empowered a person to live an overcoming and holy life. Interestingly enough, in 1801 there were instances of manifestations that we often associate with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Yet by 1901 Parham was hungry for more than he has seen and was convinced that God wanted to pour out the Holy Spirit as was seen in Acts 2. So, when he and others in Topeka received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, they hung onto the "second blessing", and simply added a third.

I have never been totally convinced. To me there are too many scriptures that indicate that the rebirth and justification are part and parcel of the same thing. It is received by faith, as is everything we receive from God. Whether it is being justified, born again, baptized in the Holy Spirit, all are received by faith. Yet it is a gift as it given by God's grace apart from us being able to earn it. Yet is it not possible that there is any change in us apart from the working of the Holy Spirit in one fashion or another. If we are born again, it is by the Spirit of God.

Hope this bit of history, and my perspective can add a little to the discussion. I hope I have not misrepresented what Robert is saying, but that is what I boiled it down to as I read the posts. It is my experience, however, and I do think it is entirely worth while to discuss. We are to study to show ourselves approved, right?

A
ADisciple

I enjoyed reading your "history lesson," Travis, thanks for that. I thought I’d add my own thoughts to this thread now. First off, I don’t think it wrong to raise the bar of the “born of the Spirit” or “born again” experience a little higher than it has been set in our day. Countless Christians of all stripes claim to be born again—yet all too often there is not much real difference in their lives from those born in Adam. And so I’m inclined to agree with what Robert has been saying.

John the Baptist was certainly a believer in Jesus Christ. But John the Baptist was not yet in the kingdom of God. “He that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he” (Lk. 7.28). And how is it that John the Baptist wasn’t in the kingdom of God? It has to be because he had not yet been born again. For Jesus said, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (Jn. 3.5).

Again, John the Baptist was “filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb” (Lk. 1.15). Even so, he was not born of the Spirit. For, according to Jesus, he had not yet entered the kingdom of God.

Yet John the Baptist was a believer in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Jesus’ first disciples too were certainly believers. Peter, speaking on behalf of the others, said, “And we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Jn. 6.69). Yet, like John the Baptist, they had not entered the kingdom of God either. For these men had not yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit—which Peter says is what happened to them at Pentecost (Acts 11.17)—and so could not yet have been born of the Spirit.

It appears, then, that it was possible before Jesus ascended to be a believer, and even be filled with the Holy Spirit, and still not have been born again (that is, to have entered the kingdom of God).

Does the same thing apply now that He has ascended? I think it does. It is certainly a work of the Spirit to bring a person to repentance and the receiving of “Christ our Passover, who is sacrificed for us” (1 Cor. 5.7). But there is a further feast—the feast of Pentecost (called the feast of firstfruits, Ex. 23.16, which, it seems to me, is why Paul spoke of having received “the firstfruits of the Spirit, Rom. 8.23). And so we need to enter into this feast as a further step in God’s purposes—receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit as the first disciples did at Pentecost. (And of course even with this we have not yet arrived; we are still just on our way.)

But I think this is what Jesus has in mind when he says, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mk. 16.1). Not just, “he that believeth...” And in my opinion, the baptism Jesus is speaking of here is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, of which water baptism is a figure (1 Pt. 3.21). In other words, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not optional to salvation; it is as integral and indispensible to our salvation as repentance and faith toward God.

And so... many men and women had interactions with the Holy Spirit prior to Jesus being glorified. “These all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise...” (Heb. 11.39). (I leave it to the faithful God to see that these ones, having died in faith, don’t miss out on anything.) But a watershed division took place when Christ ascended and received “the promise of the Holy Spirit” (Acts 2.33). Now that Jesus is glorified, this baptism of the Holy Spirit is available. He said on the occasion of the feast of tabernacles, “He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet [given] because that Jesus was not yet glorified” (Jn. 7.39).

While the word “given” is not there in the original, it’s not possible this can mean that prior to Jesus being glorified there was no such thing as the Holy Spirit. This must mean, then, “the promise of the Spirit” for which Jesus endured the Cross. This had not yet been given.

“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this which ye now see and hear” (Acts 2.33). What happened at Pentecost was evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ had been glorified, and had received “the promise of the Spirit.” Jesus the Son of God was born of the Spirit (Lk. 1.35). Further to this, after being baptized with John’s baptism, the Holy Spirit came upon Him in the form of a dove (Lk. 3.22). Yet there was still a baptism He had to be baptized with before He could receive “the promise of the Father” in a way that would release Him from all confinement. “But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how I am straitened till it be accomplished” (Lk. 12.50). This, I believe, was the joy that was set before Him for which He endured the Cross—the joy of now beginning His ministry at the right hand of God and now being able to baptize in the Holy Spirit, the joy of sending the Holy Spirit to those He loved—now not just by way of an empowering for service (which it certainly was) but to birth them into the kingdom of God.

And so for those who are concerned that this teaching may undermine the faith of those who believe themselves to be born again solely on the basis of their believing that Jesus is the Son of God... please let’s embrace all that the Scriptures have to say... and get seeking God. Let’s not sell ourselves short. I know Scripture says clearly, “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God” (1 Jn. 5.1). That used to settle it for me at one time, but I’m not so sure anymore. I don’t think John is viewing this as the one single stand-alone criterion for being born again. There are too many other scriptures that show the need for being baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit. Why should this frighten us? Is God going to deny the Holy Spirit from any who sincerely ask Him, and keep asking till they receive? Certainly not (Lk. 11.13). In fact I think it would be good for all of us Christians to be seeking a deeper reality of the baptism of the Holy Spirit—something more in line with the threshing floor wind and fire experience John the Baptist spoke of, and which the early disciples experienced on the day of Pentecost. Then maybe we too would see our world being turned upside down they way they did.

...And so, as Robert likes to say, so say I now. “Just my thoughts.” This is where I’m at in my journey—the way I see things in my present measure of light. I hope we can all continue to show good spiritual generosity one to another as we explore these wondrous things till the day when we all see not in part, but face to face.

Allan Halton

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RobertW

Thanks to all of you men for your helpful contributions!

Travis mentioned some of the early Pentecostal beliefs, as they are similar to my current understanding, I have come to view the last two experience as one. In fact, I think if a person were really serious with God they may come into the whole lot at one time, then get water baptized and be ready to go.

I think that since the days of C. Parham main stream Pentecostalism has moved away from the notion of second blessing for holiness. It's all about power for service now. The old timers did not hold this view. They believed that if a person was struggling with sin that they needed the 'baptism in the Holy Ghost'. This is why so many old Pentecostal preachers were called 2X4 (two by four) preachers; they believed Acts 2:4 was the cure for everything. They could start out on Moses and end up in Acts 2:4. Because they saw it as the cure for everything.

Many old school Pentecostals were not theologians. Many old timey preachers barely had any education. But they knew that if a person truly surrendered to God He would pour His Spirit out.

But then we started to see people thinking that ALL a person needed to do was pray until the spoke with tongues. I have heard men talk about folk receiving tongues that had not even repented yet. I have seen folk trying to seek to receive the Spirit and they were not surrendered to God. This is where my saying, "you can't receive and resist at the same time" came from. Folk wanted to receive power- while simultaneously resisting His Lordship. No telling what a person might receive doing that. This is why I think Pentecostals in many cases have lost a step; they bought into the sinners prayer method of evengelism and then tried to pray folk through to the Holy Spirit baptism. Some would utter unintelligable words and think they had 'got it'. But then there was little or no change in behavior. Now imagine the madness of this, a person says the sinners prayer and then utters unintelligable words and believes that they are saved and filled with the Spirit. Where did the Born Again experience go?

Speaking in tongues does not impress me, per-se. I think if the Spirit gives the utterance it is wonderful. But what I think what is needed is that we be led of the Spirit, yielding the fruit of the Spirit, as sons of God. I think the gifts of the Spirit should be in operation, but only as we bear fruit unto holiness.

What happened? At some point certain of the Oneness Pentecostals suggested we must have the Holy Spirit to be saved. In their view the initial evidence was tongues. Many other Pentecostal groups sought to distance themselves from such a requirement for salvation (tongues=saved). There were also issues with their view of the Trinity I won't go into. But to split the difference Pentecostals were almost forced into a doctrinal accomidation saying that if a person is 'saved' (born again) then they have the Spirit of Christ, are baptized into His Body, etc. This could happen as easy as saying a repeat type prayer.

We ended up with a lot of very high maintenence/low impact professors of Christ. So in the midst of the Crusade style evangelism and the modern view of a 'baptism of Power' the whole process of regeneration has been lost. We ended up with tongue speaking, Christ professing, 'believers' that could act like Christ one minute and the devil the next. Just being honest.

So I have sought the Lord, going totally back to the drawing board, forgetting everything I was ever taught about any of the subjects and just tried to allow God's word to lead me where it went. I see a consistent pattern in Acts:

1. Repent and bring for fruits worthy of repentance
2. Be baptized in water
3. Receive the Holy Spirit

If a person truly repents and has a heart to receive- receiving the Holy Spirit will not be a fuss. But, men do always resist the Holy Ghost (Acts 7). Lots of things have been taught and there are denominational issues, but to get this train back on the rails I think we need to take a serious look at how God planted and established the church at Ephesus in the book of Acts; because it stood for some 600-700 years (it is believed). The gates of hell did not prevail against that church. Those 12 original people repented John the Baptist style and were hungry for what God had next. They met Paul and submitted to everything he said. They received the Spirit without a fuss. No arguing- they were just ready. Later people were burning all their sinful belongings and God established that church. A powerful study to undertake and I think we really need to revisit the simplicity of it. Blessings. Robert

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sermonindex

This thread is not finished.

Our conclusion is to agree to disagree. And that is okay because we can all agree that we are justified freely by faith through grace. Upon that we can find a common ground.

When it comes to the baptism of the Holy Ghost I can understand why it's necessary to disagree with how the scriptures speak of the Holy Ghost and the need to believe that one receives Him upon acceptance, repentance and baptism in water, for when we read the words, "If any man hath not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His" those words are frightening. So when someone comes along and says that if you are not born again unless you receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, I do understand why the guards come up. And why there is a need to protect oneself of a possible deception. When we have our eggs all neatly in a row, we cannot afford to disturb that, we need to maintain our current belief, after all I am safe among the majority of believers who believe they are born again just by believing that Jesus is the Son of God and were baptized in water.

I can understand that.

In the end, only God can manifest Himself to reveal what He wants an individual to understand and know.

Approved.

S
sermonindex

Brother Robert said...

...but you asked the question and I and others have tried to give our positions.

Brother Robert, I have actually been reading and studying your positions very carefully and I was very concerned and confused by a lot of those positions.

Sorry if this seems interrogatory, but I do want to get clarity on this from you, and if possible just answer a simple yes or no, as much as you are able, thanks.

1. Do you believe that a person is baptized into Christ when they have the experience outlined in the book of Acts, which is commonly referred to as the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". NOTE: I am saying baptized WITH the Holy Spirit, not INTO. I have read several people here change these words to read, "baptized INTO the Holy Spirit".

2. If the above answer is yes, and I think you have said this many times, are you therefore stating that when a person receives a similar "Acts 2" outpouring of the Holy Spirit in their life, that it is at this point they are born again?

3. Do you also believe that a person can be saved (justified) but not yet born again? And the way they become born again is to be "baptized into Christ" which in your view is what the disciples received on the day of Pentecost.

4. Do you also believe that those people who are saved by faith are not yet born again by the Holy Spirit? That step one is being saved and step 2 is being born again? And do you believe that the way a person knows that they have arrived at step 2, "born again" is by having an unmistakable, distinct experience akin to book of Acts 2 outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

5. Do you also believe that those who are saved by faith, but not yet born again are not actually a part of the Kingdom of God?

6. Do you also believe that all those who are saved by faith, will automatically become "born again" eventually because they are the elect and are predestined to enter the Kingdom of God?

I think I have already heard you state yes to most of these above in subsequent posts but I am truly wanting to understand with clarity your position, without a whole lot more explanation.

If you could do this I would be very appreciative.

In Christ,
Mark

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murrcolr

Double post sorry

M
murrcolr

Quote: Hope this bit of history, and my perspective can add a little to the discussion.

I was reading last night the small book about the history of what happened around the time of Azusa Street Revival.

A very interesting read.....

http://www.finestofthewheat.org/Jim_Kerwin/The_Rejected_Blessing.php

I will take a look at the Cain Ridge Revival

Are there any books or articles that anyone can recommend.

S
sermonindex

I was reading last night the small book about the history of what happened around the time of Azusa Street Revival.

A very interesting read.....

http://www.finestofthewheat.org/Jim_Kerwin/The_Rejected_Blessing.php murrcoir


Thanks for this link brother. Its a really good read and helps no end with understanding some of the points in this thread which I have no knowledge of. Really worth reading. I am going to read it again later today and then again some more.

C
Croref

Ok__I said I was finished. I lied . . .))

I couldn't take it any longer__just kidding.

Lets get a few overlooked basics out of the way:

1. Jesus was not sent to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. __ How's that? because, the righteous were already "JUSTIFIED". Upon their death they would not have gone to hell’s torment. Obviously then, we can understand it was entirely possible for fallen man to be righteous in the sense of finding favor with God__entirely possible for him to have faith in God which he must have had in order to find such favor from Him. [cf Gen.4:26] Too what degree he was, placed him in God's 'corral' of those God might choose for His righteous acts. Proof of this: God never chose an unrighteous man to perform a righteous deed__nor could He..

2. Jesus died to redeem righteous-justified man. How? By His shed blood on Calvary__plus nothing. Where does this leave sinful man except he repent and turn from his ungodly ways to faith in God?__ redemption [justification?] will not be his.

OT fact: Though recognizing the "Hand" of God in His life and the activity of the Holy Spirit, by Nathan the Prophet, David was not full of the Holy Spirit with "supernatural" faith that accompanies it in any continual manner, as none were before Pentecost, JTB notwithstanding. Jesus uses JTB as an example in pressing the issue of what it means to be found in the Kingdom of God. Having such “divine unction” before Pentecost is never seen as a baptism in the scriptures.

Question: Given the above, why was David said, by God, to be a man after His own heart?? No continual God walking with him. No indwelling, and definitely no "Priestly Garment" placed "UPON" him....And David expressed it in his Psalms from himself__plus nothing.

This is salvation as God intends it to be: "And this is life eternal, that they might "know" thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 (KJV)

Short of this understanding, and what the 'process' of learning Father brings with it, "the righteous will scarcely be saved". Why? Lack of vision. Lack of understanding to "know" our salvation is centered in God__irrespective of traditional "preaching" to the contrary.

Try this to your thinking:

1. We go to Jesus for salvation. 2. Upon the "cleansing of our house" He will watch [foreknowledge also a determining factor] to see if we begin to fill it with the knowledge of Himself and upon the "witness of it", from His perspective not ours, will He choose those who mean business. The rest will be saved perhaps, hopefully, "as be fire".

The Baptism of Jesus Christ is that which Jesus will do per His foreknowledge of that one seeking it. In putting it this way I draw from my own life experiences in the "classical Pentecostal" realm of Spiritual activity. Some received with evidence while others didn't. I always wondered, why? Now, I believe I know. cf Heb 6:4-6. In this, I can see God's hand of protection for those weak in faith and in a constant need of discipling.

In replying to this, if anyone does, I hope you will take it point by point.

R
RobertW

Hi Awakened,

I think I have already heard you state yes to most of these above in subsequent posts but I am truly wanting to understand with clarity your position, without a whole lot more explanation.

Per question:

1. Yes. There is no other reference to being baptized with or in the Spirit in the Book of Acts or the latter parts of the Gospels that would correlate to being baptized into His one body, baptized into His death, or buried with Him in baptism. Paul says there is one Baptism (Ephesians 4:5). The Ephesian twelve had had two water baptisms and one Spirit baptism. It is my view that there is only one Baptism to which all others are types. That Baptism, in my view, took place on the Day of Pentecost. If we make up a fourth baptism, that I have viewed as a 'secret' baptism then we have done so in similar way to those that invented the secret rapture.

2. Yes. But born from above is a better use of words. The Spirit was sent down from above, it was poured out from above, hence they that are in Christ bu Spirit Baptism have been born from above.

3. Yes. Salvation is, always has been, and always will be by grace through faith. This is why Paul spends so much time with it in Romans. He has to lay the foundation. We can't allow ourselves to get bored with the details. He DRIVES home justification by faith to the point to where it was logical to ask the question, What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (Romans 6:1) So he took 5 full chapters laying a FIRM foundation on which to rest the rest of his doctrine. Otherwise, there is no way we can begin to focus on Romans 6:2ff. The bar is set too high to have a low view of justification.

4. Not exactly. I believe Paul's encounter with the Ephesian twelve in Acts 19 is our clear and unmistakable guide. This was many years after Pentecost and Paul had been long in the tooth preaching and evangelizing. He was solid in his understanding of the Gospel. What did he find? He found believers that had repented 'John Baptist style', but his question to them was simple, "Have you received the Holy Spirit SINCE you believed." The question implies knowledge of an experience. He did not tell them they 'had' received the Spirit as happens regularly to the millions and millions that comes to Christ, Paul ASKED them. We may need to do as when we were kids and write sentences 100X on the blackboard "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" until we understand that this is what Paul would have done and is not what many do today. They are told they have the Spirit through a process of logical deductions drawn from proof texts.

In my view, these believers in Christ, having repented and cast off and confessed all known sin, were JUSTIFIED by faith as surely as Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist or the thief on the cross. When Paul laid hands on them they received the Spirit, that is, they were baptized into the Body of Christ, buried with him in baptism unto death, dead to sin, no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, had BEGUN in the Spirit (Galatians 3:3) and could now bear the Fruit of the Spirit unto holiness and be led of the Spirit so as to be sons of God of whom Christ would not have to be ashamed to call them brethren. (Hebrews 2:11).

5. Yes. The Kingdom of God is the place where God is King. It is God's domain. When a person is in the Kingdom of God they do not struggle to obey God. It is their essential nature to obey. The will of God is done IN THEM as it is in Heaven. The Kingdom of God is not some mystical place that people get into by saying the sinners prayer, etc.; it is a place where God rules absolutely. This is why I tie in all the examples of the Tabernacle (mobile King's palace), Temple (permanant King's palace), etc. to the Acts 2 event. When God came in Israel to take His throne and rule among His people Israel, there was an ABSOLUTE expectation that they obey Him or He simply rolled out! The glory departed. Why? Because the Kingdom of God can only ever be where God is ruling and reigning in an absolute sense. If a Christian won't obey God, why should the devil obey the Christian? In other words, Christians say they are hounded by the Devil and by sin, but it is because they refuse often times to submit to God. Lot of people calling themselves Christians, but have no idea that a Christian is a person that obeys God from the heart as a matter of course and natural desire. They don't have to take themselves by the scruff of the neck or fast for ten years to get themselves to obey. God WORKS in them both to WIll and to DO His good pleasure. If that is not our reality, we are not in the kindom of God no matter how much we quote scripture verses, speak in tongues or anything else. I don't put a lot of stock in tongues because I have seen way too many people that spoke in tongues or even gave messages in tongues that fell away from the faith, etc.

6. Yes. Jesus Christ is the author and the finisher of everyones faith. Keep that clear. We learn of this in Hebrews 12:23 where we have this phrase, "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect...," The spirits of men that are justied by faith are made perfect. I think his is what happened to all O.T. saints and if a person, such as the thief on the cross, cries out for mercy at the last moment then the author and finisher of our faith will 'make perfect' the spirit of that just man or woman. If God raises the person off their death bed after confessing Christ, as the old timers would say, then they will get up and serve God and go on with God and all He has for them. If not, they were never sincerly repentant to begin with and may very well be lost. It is a hard saying, but there it is.

I hope that helps clear up a bit of what I see happening at this juncture in my understanding. Blessings.

C
Croref

Hi Awakened,

I think I have already heard you state yes to most of these above in subsequent posts but I am truly wanting to understand with clarity your position, without a whole lot more explanation.

Per question:

1. Yes. There is no other reference to being baptized with or in the Spirit in the Book of Acts or the latter parts of the Gospels that would correlate to being baptized into His one body, baptized into His death, or buried with Him in baptism. Paul says there is one Baptism (Ephesians 4:5). The Ephesian twelve had had two water baptisms and one Spirit baptism. It is my view that there is only one Baptism to which all others are types. That Baptism, in my view, took place on the Day of Pentecost. If we make up a fourth baptism, that I have viewed as a 'secret' baptism then we have done so in similar way to those that invented the secret rapture.

Robert, given nothing to support a second water baptism and knowing that the baptism of Jesus Christ was of His Holy Spirit and that by His Name and the laying of hands it could be administered, why assume Paul water baptized them or even had to before the Holy Spirit came "upon" them??

S
sermonindex

RW said:

these believers in Christ, having repented and cast off and confessed all known sin, were JUSTIFIED by faith as surely as Abraham, Moses, David, John the Baptist or the thief on the cross. When Paul laid hands on them they received the Spirit, that is, they were baptized into the Body of Christ, buried with him in baptism unto death, dead to sin, no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, had BEGUN in the Spirit (Galatians 3:3) and could now bear the Fruit of the Spirit unto holiness and be led of the Spirit so as to be sons of God of whom Christ would not have to be ashamed to call them brethren. (Hebrews 2:11).
Very well said.

Perhaps you could gather up all these fragments here and more and write another book entitling it, "Are you REALLY born again?"

S
sermonindex

Coref said:

why assume Paul water baptized them or even had to before the Holy Spirit came "upon" them??
Probably because it's written that he did in Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

6 And [afterward] when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. [emphasis mine]

He probably didn't have to water baptize them before hand, but because their whole make up surrounding John's baptism it was probably needful to get their minds turned around to Jesus. John was telling people that they should not believe in him as their Messiah but to believe in the One that should come after him. I think it was necessary to dis-spell any ideas that the followers of John might have thought about him. These disciples no doubt had this mindset. No doubt that Apollos had the same run in when he met Aquila and Priscilla, because his tune changed later expounding to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. Before that, he was preaching of the one that was still coming, but had already came, died and resurrected, to which Aquila and Priscilla showed him a more perfect way.


Side note: He himself did not water baptize them (probably Barnabas or Silas), for he himself baptized a couple of people 1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

T
twayneb

Interestingly enough, the Nazarene are very strong in believing that the work of sanctification is almost synonymous with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They do not focus much at all on the Acts 2 manifestations, but do focus strongly on power and grace to overcome sin.

I was just at a meeting last night where a Nazarene preacher laid out this doctrine very plainly. The only problem I had with it was that it seemed that if he had not already held that doctrinal position, he would not have seen in the scripture he used the points that he made. However, he is a strong man of God, as far as I know lives a very holy life, and bears much fruit for the kingdom. Praise God for this man. I was very much blessed by his ministry and the presence of God was strong in the meeting. Yet, I am not sure I agree with him doctrinally. Isn't it great that God does not require that we have our doctrine totally straight before He will move in and through us.

I think Robert has a really valid point in that we have tended in modern Pentecost to reduce the baptism of the Holy Spirit to an experience in which we pray in tongues. While I believe that praying in tongues is important, it is only part of what the Holy Spirit does. I would not say it is more or less important than the other functions, but it has a different purpose in that it is on a personal level and its benefits are for the particular believer more than for ministry, while messages in tongues with interpretation are only one of nine gifts listed in 1 Cor., and is only one of several more manifestations of the Spirit given in other books as well.

Being baptized in the Holy Spirit should produce, in the life of a believer, a power to overcome sin that has never been present before. It should yield believers who walk in the Spirit rather than in the flesh. The change should be substantive and visible.

To give a bit of opinion on some questions, I have come to see the rebirth as the point of regeneration of man's spirit. A death to the old man and a life in Christ. Based on Jesus discourse with Nicodemus in John 3, Jesus statement that "if any man would come after me, let him first deny himself and take up his cross...", and on Paul's statements in Romans 6, I cannot separate, in my mind, the work of justification from the work of regeneration. I am compelled to put them together under the banner of salvation and say it is a package deal. To me, sanctification is a work of God, a setting apart of ourselves to be wholly His, that comes when we make the decision by faith to turn from our own ways and follow Christ. Perhaps this is the reason I believe that we have made salvation too cheap, and many have come to see it as an eternal fire escape rather than a total commitment of their life to Christ. Salvation is free, Yes, in that we cannot earn it or pay for it. But it is not free in that we cannot simply pick it up along with the other goodies as we might pick up a free give-a-way at a vendors table at a sales expo. To obtain Christ we must give ourselves to Him.

This does not mean that we become perfect in our soul and our flesh all at once. There is a process in which the Lord says, "I don't yet have that part of you. I want that too.", and we are faced with the reality of our sanctification in action rather than simply in sentiment. ...even your sanctification, that ye (do these things)...

It is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit that empowers us to live and walk in sanctification. This is why I believe the Acts 2 experience was never meant by God to be optional equipment for a believer. All believers should be filled with the Holy Spirit.

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/10/31 5:40:28

Coref said:

why assume Paul water baptized them or even had to before the Holy Spirit came "upon" them??
Probably because it's written that he did in Acts 19:5 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

6 And [afterward] when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

He probably didn't have to water baptize them before hand, but because their whole make up surrounding John's baptism it was probably needful to get their minds turned around to Jesus. John was telling people that they should not believe in him as their Messiah but to believe in the One that should come after him. I think it was necessary to dis-spell any ideas that the followers of John might have thought about him. These disciples no doubt had this mindset. No doubt that Apollos had the same run in when he met Aquila and Priscilla, because his tune changed later expounding to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. Before that, he was preaching of the one that was still coming, but had already came, died and resurrected, to which Aquila and Priscilla showed him a more perfect way.

Should we also assume that's what happen at the house Cornelius? Because of the account, I fail to see any need to add the word "[afterward]" in this __even if Paul did water baptize them simply because we DON"T have to assume such.

C
Croref

by twayneb on 2012/10/31 5:54:52

Interestingly enough, the Nazarene are very strong in believing that the work of sanctification is almost synonymous with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They do not focus much at all on the Acts 2 manifestations, but do focus strongly on power and grace to overcome sin.

Since Jesus destroyed the power of sin indicates to me, we don't have to but rather it is our flesh and its demands it places upon us that needs be overcome. Jesus showed us how that was done we need to learn.

S
sermonindex

I fail to see any need to add the word "[afterward]" in this
I apologize for this, I wasn't adding it to the verse, I was merely emphasizing that Paul baptized them afterward. I corrected the previous post by adding [emphasis mine] so that no one will think that I was adding to the scriptures. Thanks for pointing that out to me brother.

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/10/31 6:15:45

I fail to see any need to add the word "[afterward]" in this
I apologize for this, I wasn't adding it to the verse, I was merely emphasizing that Paul baptized them afterward. I corrected the previous post by adding [emphasis mine] so that no one will think that I was adding to the scriptures. Thanks for pointing that out to me brother.

No worries, Bro. It wasn't my intent for that reason to point it out. [I have done worse to make a point] but rather why you added it period. Why assume such when it isn't necessary nor suggested from context. That is why I mentioned the house of Cornelius account that it can be compared to.. They weren't "water" baptized until AFTERWARDS.

R
RobertW

Hi CroRef,

Robert, given nothing to support a second water baptism and knowing that the baptism of Jesus Christ was of His Holy Spirit and that by His Name and the laying of hands it could be administered, why assume Paul water baptized them or even had to before the Holy Spirit came "upon" them??

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (Acts 19:3)

This was their first water baptism, presumably administered by Apollos. Paul then explains that baptism and followed it with:

When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:5)

This is baptism in water #2.

And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. (Acts 19:6)

This is baptism in the Holy Spirit (baptism #3) as paralleled by the events in Acts 2:4 and defined by Jesus:

For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (Acts 1:5)

So their Acts 1:5-2:4 experience was all played out in Acts 19:1-6. It is my view that they were justified by faith when the met Paul, had believed, but had NOT received. Otherwise, why did Paul ask them? They could not have possibly had an experience so profound that they were new creatures in Christ, no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, crucified with Christ, etc., and not know it. This is where I think the error is. People are taught to 'reckon' themselves dead to sin, 'reckon' this and that and yet there is no basis for their reckoning. I may write a check 'reckoning' that I have $100 in the bank, but unless a deposit had been made, there is no justification for reckoning it and the check is going to bounce. We risk flooding Christendom with a lot of hot checks by not asking folks, "have you received SINCE you believed?" How can a demand be made on an experience that never took place? So folk strain real hard and turn all red in the face trying to weird out and 'reckon' by faith something that they never had deposited. This is why I believe the masses live lives very similar to sinners. They don't need more teaching- they need to be asked 19:1ff. Paul was a master theologian and did not suggest to them they had a 'secret' experience based on logical deductions of proof texts; but he wanted to know if they KNEW they had received. Hope that helps. Blessings.

C
Croref

by RobertW on 2012/10/31 6:27:32

Hi CroRef,

Robert, given nothing to support a second water baptism and knowing that the baptism of Jesus Christ was of His Holy Spirit and that by His Name and the laying of hands it could be administered, why assume Paul water baptized them or even had to before the Holy Spirit came "upon" them??

And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (Acts 19:3)

This was their first water baptism, presumably administered by Apollos. Paul then explains that baptism and followed it with:

When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:5)

This is baptism in water #2.

Again, why assume it when there is no reason to?

Paul asked because he knew there was MORE they had not received that would be of great significance in their ministry. Do you honestly believe that they needed another water baptism __to prove anything to Paul?? Paul only asked, "since you BELIEVED". Believed what? Paul already assumed they would know it was Jesus he was referring to..

S
sermonindex

That is why I mentioned the house of Cornelius account that it can be compared to.. There weren't "water" baptized until AFTERWARDS.
I see what your saying. Didn't quite understand your previous question, but it's now more plain.

I truly do not have a concrete answer to give, I can only speculate.

Though I have been baptized in Jesus name, I have never taken real stock in it until I was baptized with the Holy Ghost. I went into the water and came up wet. To me it was just a rite, a ritual. But when I was baptized with the Holy Spirit, that was a different story.

So when I read about Cornelius Household being filled with the Spirit without first being baptized in water, I thought the whole process to be natural that God sees the Baptism with the Holy Spirit to be more paramount than baptism in water.

Since this was the first gentiles to be saved, this gives me hints of why Paul makes the distinction, "My Gospel" in a few places. The revelation that God gave to him for the gentiles, might have excluded the use of water baptism as a rite that had to die so that our emphasis could be on the Spirit baptism hence why he says One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism.


side note: Peter had to be the first to introduce the gospel to the gentiles because he had been given the keys of the kingdom. His job was to unlock the classes that separated the Jews from the Samaritans and the Gentile world. His task was completed at Cornelius house, he than fades away into legend, while Paul now takes the centre stage.

All speculation brother.

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sermonindex

Thanks Robert for patiently answering the 6 points put by awakened. Given the condition of the church in many places and the fact that we are nearing the end of this age it must be wise to understand, even from a personal position, what truly constitutes being born again; without which we all agree that we will not see God. Even though I have met G W North at his “men’s conference” in the 1980’s and have therefore heard him preach and teach up close and personal I never discerned anything about him which gave me cause for concern. I should say however that I didn’t comprehend the “One Baptism” teaching as to its meaning in terms of new birth. The book One Baptism was written in the early seventies and so it predates the article that you posted here on this thread by nearly three decades; and which presents the same belief or teaching. In fact the structure of that article is very similar to Pastor North’s own structure in the last chapter of that book.

The implication that I spoke about earlier in this thread wasn’t just an implication that some younger believers especially might be troubled by this idea of “Pentecostal regeneration”, nor was it a substantive concern about pressing into heresy by making an unreasonable separation between justification, which must follow conviction of sin, as well as faith in the sufferings and resurrection of Christ, and regeneration as a conscious experience which cannot be anything other than evident in a complete change of character and life. It was more especially to do with the possibility that the distinction could lead some brethren to settle for being justified and yet equally settle for no real “God Consciousness” and therefore see no need to desire or even expect any fruit arising from a new life. If one can be justified in the same way Abraham was, as has been stated, and yet not be born again, as a formal doctrine, this idea would necessarily lend itself to the wicked man who for whatever reason believes himself to be a justified sinner. However it has come about, this is definitely what has happened and it is near epidemic amongst believers.

I accept that your continuous efforts have put that “self justification” to bed. It cannot be true and it is not true. It may help to put something in a way that paraphrases something I once read. “God deals with realities. He isn’t concerned in presenting truth from a man’s perspective; He presents truth from His own perspective. The reality of Truth is not Godward, but towards man. It is God’s ways presented to men, and which are true in Him, not Truth presented to God by man and which are therefore true in man.”

I appreciate your efforts Robert and the sincerity in which you have wrestled with your understanding of the reality of the churches in many places. Pastor North’s teaching that the only baptism which “fits” the meaning of “One Baptism” in Ephesians 4 being the same indumenta of power arising from being born from on high, is an undoubted challenge to me although I have said previously that I have no difficulty in believing that the Apostles and the others of the 120 were born again by that means. Though this lack of difficulty has to do with the “time line” of events surrounding the work of The Lord Jesus Himself. (Birth, Life, Death, Burial, descending in Hell, raised from the dead, witnessed by over 500 persons, especially the Apostles, ascended into Heaven, The Lamb newly slain seating down at the right Hand of The Father. I think this is going to be something I will have to wrestle with for some time before I have clarity and therefore the possibility of “being fully persuaded”. But it is in any event a blessing to be sharing and receiving in this way the things of God.

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/10/31 6:43:03

That is why I mentioned the house of Cornelius account that it can be compared to.. There weren't "water" baptized until AFTERWARDS.
I see what your saying. Didn't quite understand your previous question, but it's now more plain.

I truly do not have a concrete answer to give, I can only speculate.

Though I have been baptized in Jesus name, I have never taken real stock in it until I was baptized with the Holy Ghost. I went into the water and came up wet. To me it was just a rite, a ritual. But when I was baptized with the Holy Spirit, that was a different story.

So when I read about Cornelius Household being filled with the Spirit without first being baptized in water, I thought the whole process to be natural that God sees the Baptism with the Holy Spirit to be more paramount than baptism in water.

Since this was the first gentiles to be saved, this gives me hints of why Paul makes the distinction, "My Gospel" in a few places. The revelation that God gave to him for the gentiles, might have excluded the use of water baptism as a rite that had to die so that our emphasis could be on the Spirit baptism hence why he says One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism.

side note: Peter had to be the first to introduce the gospel to the gentiles because he had been given the keys of the kingdom. His job was to unlock the classes that separated the Jews from the Samaritans and the Gentile world. His task was completed at Cornelius house, he than fades away into legend, while Paul now takes the centre stage.

All speculation brother.

Not really, Bro. You're OK. The accounts speak for themselves. We have many more letters from Paul as a result then we do from Peter. That should say something, eh?

"One Baptism" to me, is an "singleness of mind" attitude rather being something we need to labor over for understanding for fear we not don't have it for our salvation. That simply is not good thinking since Jesus in so many instances gets thing "all out of wack" in the way we think things need be done. Forget it. Remember the thief on the cross? Whatta you do with that?

C
Croref

I believe the biggest reason for confusion in all this is unbelief. Most come into these issues with minds already made up in someway 'mentally' engineered that handicap them to their long established doctrines. It's tough to break through that when sufficient commentaries, viewed as gospel, are out which contribute greatly to their handicap __and for the same reason.

. . . to which I say throw them out__read your Bible__and write your own commentary.

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sermonindex

I believe the biggest reason for confusion in all this is unbelief.
B.I.N.G.O

C
Croref

LOL!! . . I believe it is true.

R
RobertW

Hi CroRef,

Again, why assume it when there is no reason to?

Paul asked because he knew there was MORE they had not received that would be of great significance in their ministry. Do you honestly believe that they needed another water baptism __to prove anything to Paul?? Paul only asked, "since you BELIEVED". Believed what? Paul already assumed they would know it was Jesus he was referring to..

It is my view that the most probable reason why they were RE-baptized in water, is because they were baptized according to John's baptism after John's ministry had been superseded by Christ's. It was past its sell by date and yet had been employed by Apollos. Paul does not condemn them for doing this, but rather perfects what they had learned and done. they were on the right track, but needed to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, that is with His name called over them as evidence that they had surrendered to and believed Christ. I'm not sure if thats the answer you were looking for.Blessings.

R
RobertW

Andrew's,

But it is in any event a blessing to be sharing and receiving in this way the things of God.

Amen dear brother. It has been a pleasure to discuss it all. I pray the Lord will continue to give us more light on these great subjects. As Paul once said, 'we know in part...' (WKIP). Blessings. Robert

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sermonindex

1. Do you believe that a person is baptized into Christ when they have the experience outlined in the book of Acts, which is commonly referred to as the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". NOTE: I am saying baptized WITH the Holy Spirit, not INTO. I have read several people here change these words to read, "baptized INTO the Holy Spirit".

2. If the above answer is yes, and I think you have said this many times, are you therefore stating that when a person receives a similar "Acts 2" outpouring of the Holy Spirit in their life, that it is at this point they are born again?

3. Do you also believe that a person can be saved (justified) but not yet born again? And the way they become born again is to be "baptized into Christ" which in your view is what the disciples received on the day of Pentecost.

4. Do you also believe that those people who are saved by faith are not yet born again by the Holy Spirit? That step one is being saved and step 2 is being born again? And do you believe that the way a person knows that they have arrived at step 2, "born again" is by having an unmistakable, distinct experience akin to book of Acts 2 outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

5. Do you also believe that those who are saved by faith, but not yet born again are not actually a part of the Kingdom of God?

6. Do you also believe that all those who are saved by faith, will automatically become "born again" eventually because they are the elect and are predestined to enter the Kingdom of God?

Dear Saints,

Perhaps this forum thread is coming to a close soon. I do not want to contribute too much into some of the profitable discussions but wanted to make my view clear for some saints. I want to respond quickly to this dear brothers questions above in relation to the holy spirit and salvation.


1. Yes and No, When a person is born-again and experiences a new birth experience he does receive the holy spirit immediately yet a more manifest baptism of the spirit experience can happen afterwards. I believe each believer will receive these baptisms throughout their walk with Christ the terminology is al the same: Baptism of the Spirit, Filling of the Spirit, etc

2. It can be their conversion experience but for many they will not speak in tongues but still be genuinely born-again of the Spirit. A more clear indicator of being born-again is 2 timothy 2:19 holiness of life: Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

3. No, if a person is justified he is saved, if he is justified he has the new birth experience, if he is justified he has the holy spirit.

4. No, if a person has saving faith he has the new birth and the holy spirit.

5. No, if a person is saved by faith he is born again and if he is saved by faith he is part of the kingdom of God already.

6. No, being saved by faith is being born-again, it is a synonomus term. And if you are born-again you are the elect and predestinated in Christ for all the promises of God.

H
Heydave

Travis - Thank you for your insights into these doctrines from your own experience. It was helpul to understand the background. How you stated your understnding of salvation and regeneration is also how I see it.

Awakened has highlightened some important concerns regarding the 'one baptism' position that RobertW has laid out.

T
twayneb

Heydave: Thank you brother for the encouragement. I agree totally with Robert when he said W.K.I.P.. We indeed know in part. I think I am pretty secure in my understanding of many doctrines. And yet, I am always challenged by other believers and have, at times, had to admit that I was a little misguided in my ideas and opinions. So it goes with all of us as every joint supplies and the body grows up into maturity. When we can have candid discussions as the one that has happened here, it sharpens us and helps us to grow. I have been blessed by this thread. My wife and I left the meeting last night having a lengthy discussion of the nature of salvation, sanctification, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the nature of these works. Yet we did not have to have the mechanics all figured out in order to put faith in the work of Christ for our salvation, and we knew beyond a doubt that we were born again and children of God as His Spirit bore witness in our hearts. Praise God for that!!!!

C
Christinyou

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand , that no man speaking by (()) the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed : and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord , but by the Holy Ghost .

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1722. en
Search for G1722 in KJVSL
en en en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); "in," at, (up-)on, by, etc.:--about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-)by (+ all means), for (... sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-)in(-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-)on, (open-)ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, (speedi-)ly, X that, X there(-in, -on), through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), under, when, where(-with), while, with(-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) preposition.

See Greek 1519
See Greek 1537

Between these two; Strong's Greek Dictionary
1519. eis
Search for G1519 in KJVSL
eiV eis ice
a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases:--(abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to), ...ward, (where-)fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) expressing motion (literally or figuratively).

Strong's Greek Dictionary
1537. ek
Search for G1537 in KJVSL
ek ek ek or ex ex
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):--after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Not just by the Spirit but "in", and incompassing all that the Holy Spirit is and does. The new birthed or rebirthed or born again from above etc. is the incorruptable Seed of the Father the living Word, Jesus Christ the Lord, by which no man can say that Jesus Christ is all the above primary prepositions with all their tenses pointing to the Christ that is born again in us and being able to say that Jesus Christ is Lord by the Holy Spirit that has to be in us also or we cannot say He is Lord.

The whole bucket of Grace by Faith is of God through Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit in us. Signed, sopken, by the Chief Justice, sealed by His spoken decreed One The Holy Spirit, this believer is justified, saved, made righteous by the life of Christ birthed in him, all wisdom given by the MInd of Christ and the great Teacher the Parakleet the Holy Spirit bringing all to mind what Jesus has Said and even the things we don't understand, He the Holy Spirit will reveal all things to us. Making us by the Decree of God the Father by His Seed, (sperma) of God birthing His Son Jesus Christ in us, of whom we now have His Spirit as our Spirit and His MInd as our Mind.

This is all done at one time or in the first place if the Holy Spirit was not given at rebirth we could not even call Jesus Christ the Son of God or Lord, for this can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit, sent from God the Father by the Son's Prayer, answered beyond our greatest dreams.

Sanctification begins at birth and ends in eternity in the Father's House as His purchased, paid for offspring and sons' and daughters of God our Father and joint heirs with His only begotten Son and temple of His Holy Spirit, ever learning and Loving God.

When God decided to dump the whole bucket of Grace through Faith in this sinner, I received all that God will use to make me a son fit for His House on resurrection day.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

All of this is what we are baptized into One Spirit His Body the Church, it does not come in parts and pieces, it is all there at birth, but the Holy Spirit sanctifies and teaches and uses each one as He sees' fit. Each part of the Body just as God wants it.

In Christ: IN The Holy Spirit, and the Father making His abode also with us IN the Son, The whole God Head in us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit: I truly am an offspring of My Father and God: His plan before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:4. Amen

WOW, what a plan; Amen

Phillip

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sermonindex

Admin Greg said:

When a person is born-again and experiences a new birth experience he does receive the Holy Spirit immediately yet a more manifest baptism of the Spirit experience can happen afterwards.
I'll probably get black balled for saying this, but I am shocked that you would write that.

The "Certain disciples" that Paul found while trekking around Ephesus didn't even ask them if they believed in Jesus. He went right to the heart of the matter, "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?".

He didn't say, "I know that we all receive a measure of the Holy Spirit when we repent and give our lives over to the Lord, but I am not talking about that first workings, I am talking about the second blessing, have you received that?"

He didn't say that, but that is certainly what your saying.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

They no doubt had told Paul that they were baptized, hence the question, "Unto what then were you baptized?".

Notice how Paul questions them, he is basically saying, If you were baptized, where is the Holy Ghost? And they said, "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost".

If those certain disciples had received even a portion of the Holy Ghost for their so called "born again experience", why ask the question if they received the Holy Ghost?

Wouldn't it be better to encourage people to ask for the Holy Spirit as Jesus gave the examples when He says,

Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you.

C
Croref

by Approved on 2012/11/1 8:21:23

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul was asking if they had received the "Baptism of Jesus Christ", JTB spoke of.

Since Paul knew they were disciples who were not to begin their ministry without receiving it that he might have wondered, 'How come you did and gotten this far without the anointing'. . "Unto what then were you baptized?" to which they replied: ". . Unto John's baptism""And we have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost".

Regardless of whether or not these disciples received anything before hand is of little relevance when considering their obedience to what they assumed was the message of John, before anyone was born again, and certainly before Pentecost. This is what Peter said that makes me believe when Paul laid hands on them, there was no hesitancy in the Lord for what then instantly happened:

". . . we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM". Acts 5:32 (KJV)


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sermonindex

Mark said:

Perhaps we will never really know the answer to when each of these groups was actually born again/saved.
Perhaps not brother. Mark my reply is not directed at you, I am merely using your words from your post. :-)

Now, lets turn the tables around a bit.

Most everyone believes that when one believes, repents, and gives their life over to the Lord that they are born again.

Lets also say that one is born again without having received the Holy Ghost. Taking the words of Admin Greg, he said that "being saved by faith is being born-again". But that doesn't mean that one receives the Holy Spirit.

It's only an assumption that the Holy Spirit is there upon being born again, as is those that don't subscribe to the baptism of Promise to be the born again experience as being an assumption. Both of us see two different workings, yet one of us is wrong, or we could be both wrong, or we could be both right.

Lets say that I am in complete agreement, we are one in our union regarding this matter.

Now, Lets say, IF being born again is by a silent working of the Holy Ghost, then (here is my question) why do those who are in these groups do not seek the Baptism of the Holy Ghost?

When I mention the Baptism of the Holy Ghost among the Baptists lets say, and I will use the vernacular, "Second Blessing", why do the eyes roll, or a non verbal disgust? If the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is the "Second Blessing", why is it not sought amongst this group?

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sermonindex

Brothers and sisters,
Since I started this thread I believe that I have a responsibility to speak to it further and maybe bring this to a close. I want to leave these final comments, NOT to correct any others here but to leave a clear trail of sound doctrine to any who might stumble onto my thread in the days and maybe even years to come, especially newly saved believers.

I asked the question about the apostles and the Ephesus disciples as to when they were born again. I never imagined I would see so much vociferous discussion about this topic.

1) Salvation = Born Again. What I have learned is that there are unorthodox views that separate justification by faith (salvation) from being born again and considers these as two separate states. With the second state, born again, being the state whereby a person enters the Kingdom of God. It is my view as well as almost every single preacher on this website, that this is wrong teaching. That in fact that salvation and born again are one and the same thing. Dear believer, if you have repented and are trusting by faith in the finished work of the Christ Jesus on the cross and have the witness that you are saved but come here and read these unorthodox views, I pray that you will not be confused and fearful that you are not yet born again. Let me say it plainly. If this be the case, and if you are SAVED by faith in Christ Jesus, you are indeed born again. You do not need to wait until you receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon you as experienced several times by believers in the book of Acts.

Here is a helpful article by Zac Poonen: http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/a_clear_gospel_message.php

2) The Baptism of the Holy Spirit. After or at the same time a person is born again, and only once their heart is sufficiently prepared, the Lord Jesus Himself wants to Baptize them WITH the Holy Spirit. Some will try to teach that this is the same thing as being baptized INTO Christ, which happens when we are born again and become children of God. They are two separate things and should never be confused. The words used by Jesus are for those who are saved to go on with God and receive a Baptism by the Holy Spirit. This would be the Spirit coming UPON the disciples, not into the disciples per se. We use the term today, "baptized" but as brother Zac teaches so clearly, this is not what the original text suggests...it actually means to be immersed by the Holy Spirit, as in standing under the deluge of the water fall. Both these brothers state that this is the Holy Spirit coming UPON and should not be confused with the new birth.

Here are some helpful sermons and articles:
Paris Reidhead: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=2969

Zac Poonen: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=23346

http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/articles.php?display=article16

3) God has much more for us than we can possibly understand. Paris Reidhead said it so well, in dispelling the wrong teaching that when we are born again, we get all there is to get of God. This is from the sermon I pasted above starting at about the 7 minute mark.
"I was told years ago at since the Spirit of God came into us at the new birth and since God is a person we got all there is to get of God at salvation (new birth)...and the consequence was that we would hear something like this ' since a person cannot come in parts, you got all there was to get of God, all He is asking now is just for Him to get more of you.’ I never get around to asking the question, ‘since the Spirit of God cannot come in parts, how can I go in parts, how can I give more of me?’

Regardless, that was what we were taught and that was what we preached. And it is quite enough to preach it as long as your heart is not hungering for God. But when the Spirit of God begins to stir you with a hunger from Himself and for Himself, and you go to the Word of God and begin to study the word and read the Word and find out what the Word has to say, you discover some interesting things.
For instance, you discover that the Holy Spirit was in Christ, for if He wasn’t then He wasn’t God. For from His birth he was indwelt by the fullness of the Godhead bodily. So that at the very time that the Holy Spirit was IN our Lord Jesus Christ, He came UPON our Lord Jesus Christ.

Well what do we learn? We learn that you cannot apply those rules that are true of human personality...to God. You see, “God the Holy Spirit IN Christ while He came UPON Christ”…once and for all does away with that teaching that says that when you were born again you got all there was to get of God. You didn’t. Oh well in a sense you did - everything that belongs to the children of God became yours in that sense that you were born into His family, but it didn’t all come to you at once and we will discover that there are many blessing that, after we’ve been baptized with the Holy Spirit, that God has provided for them that love Him, and we will have to meet Him in terms of that particular need and that particular desire.

But still, the point that I'm making is that the dispensationists of which I was one, very active and vociferous - were quite incorrect when we said that since He comes at the new birth you get all there is to get of God. Not true.”

Now, in summary. All of this is great doctine, but we must yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit and hunger after Him. As we do that, the Holy Spirit will continue to be poured out over us and we will continue to be filled with the Holy Spirit, so that we continue to live a Godly life and so that we will be endured with power for service - to take the gospel of the Lord Jesus into all the world.

In Him,
Mark

C
Christinyou

Why did Jesus call Paul? To reveal that He Jesus was in Paul that Paul might reveal this mystery to the Church, the body of Christ. This mystery that no one knew, even though the born again mystery had already happened at Pentecost, yet they did not have an understanding in their minds what had happened. The same is true of the Holy Spirit, they who were there and saw and felt the wind and saw the tongues of fire, knew something had happened, the Holy Spirit working in them gave all those standing there the unction by them speaking to all who were standing there, understanding in their own language which those Galalians were speaking which they knew was not possible. Yet, it was true what speaking could be understood in their own tongue.

Then Peter; Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

They had no understanding of Christ in them or what had happened or who the Holy Spirit was. Only those (Peter)that heard Jesus pray to the Father, of whom the baptism would come from. "he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" Thus the question by Paul "have you received the Holy Spirit? If they believed who does it take for them to believe that Jesus is Lord? Jesus chose Paul to reveal all this to those that were being added to the Church daily.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Then after three years with Jesus Himself, Paul went straight to Peter to reveal the truth of the Holy Spirit and Christ in Him.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Then the revelation, the Mystery.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Our spirit is saved completely, for it is the Spirit of Christ in us. Our soul/mind is being saved by the teaching of the Holy Spirit in us as with Paul revealing this to Peter and all who would listern the Myster revealed. The renweing.

Romans 12:1-3 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by ((((the renewing of your mind,)))) that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

What God has done in Christ has to be revealed to whom it is done, or no one would ever know that we have the Holy Spirit and the incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ in us. That is why Paul was given "my gospel" to reveal it to God's own children.

Ac 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Ac 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Ac 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

In Christ: Phillip

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sermonindex

In conclusion to a wonderful and thought provoking thread, I will leave this subject alone.

To those that believe they are born again without the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I say, Praise the Lord Brother and Sister and would encourage everyone not to stop at water baptism but to move forward in seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and be open to what the bible says concerning it and forsake what others around you are saying it's not necessary for us today.

If we have the mindset of "If God wants me to have it, He'll let me know". With that mind, it will never happen.

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ASK Him?

If we don't ask, we don't get.

C
Christinyou

All I can say is, I did not ask to be in Christ before the foundation of the world, but I am and He in me and blessed by His promise of the Holy Spirit of which I had no part in. It is all of Him and none of me. He must grow stronger I must decrease.

John 3:31-33 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

In Christ: Phillip

J
jimp

hi phillip, wow, great post.jimp

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sermonindex

All I can say is, I did not ask to be in Christ
Neither did I, but the receiving of the Holy Spirit is something that we either desire or ask for. We must either be willing to receive without asking or be of the mind to ask. I've seen both occur in the person who is baptized in the Holy Ghost coming up from the watery grave and the sinner who repents at the altar and the person who seeks God diligently for the Baptism of the Spirit. But as for coming to Christ, I had no part to play. His Spirit wooed and I couldn't resist.

I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but when I saw Phils response I needed to clarify.

I am done..........I hope.

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sermonindex

Brothers and Sisters we may as well stop bothering with the subject of the Holy Spirit as a second work of grace, or the second blessing, nobody wants it. Everyone is settled with the fact that they have received the Holy Ghost at confession by faith. If that is the case, why seek for something more?

If I received the Holy Spirit when I repented and gave my life to Jesus, why should I bother looking for another Holy Ghost when I got the whole deal at the first?

Seems kind of stupid to me that I should seek for something that I already have. Approved.


Brother speaking about The Holy Spirit is to speak about the third person of God. More importantly it is God Himself who speaks about Himself. Firstly the Law and the prophets spoke about Jesus, then The Word (Jesus) speaks about the Father and then the Holy Spirit who is sent speaks about the Son (Christ). The Holy Spirit is not come to reveal Himself He is come to reveal Christ Jesus The Son of God and all the things that belong to Him. Knowing that you are born again and therefore have The Spirit of God doesn’t mean that one would need to adopt an attitude of speaking about The Holy Spirit “in power” or outpouring as “another” Holy Spirit. Psalm 23 “He anoints my head with oil and my cup runs over”. Jesus “whosoever comes unto me from his inner most parts shall flow rivers of living waters”. This thread was about being born again. Anyone who is born again should expect to know the outworking of eternal life (living waters) daily. Anyone who lacks this outworking can no doubt ask God as to why. If He anoints their head with oil (outpouring of The Holy Spirit) then they can overflow unto God and men. If they continue to overflow then they will never be empty again. A cup which overflows is always full! But first it must be a sacred vessel (cup).

C
Croref

Amrkelly, Do you believe in any way, this passage might apply for "new birth" "indwelling"? For the "coming upon" of the Pentecostal Baptism? What?

". . . we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him". Acts 5:32 (KJV)


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Do you believe in any way, this passage might apply for "new birth" "indwelling"? For the "coming upon" of the Pentecostal Baptism? What?

". . .


……we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him". Acts 5:32 (KJV) croref


The things of which Peter says "we were witnesses too” were the crucifixion of Christ and His being raised from the dead. This is what Peter says to the Senate of Israel in the passage you have referenced. Peter also says “and so is also the Holy Ghost” a witness of these things. In context Peter says in effect “it is The Holy Ghost who is given By God (The Father) to those who obey Him (The Father). As it was The Father who bore witness from Heaven twice regarding His Son, once at The Lord’ baptism and secondly at the Last Supper. I believe the “obedience” which Peter is speaking about here in the first instance is obedience in believing The Father. It is also Christ bearing witness of Him self by showing Himself to the apostles after His resurrection. The Holy Spirit is in this passage only given by God after obedience in believing God’ witness or Christ’ witness of Himself after He was raised from the dead and before He ascended into heaven. Today we are in a very different place to either the Apostles or the Senate of Israel. It is the Spirit speaking through those who preach Christ crucified for sin, Who rose for our justification that forms the basis for believing the witness of the Holy Spirit. This believing must produce repentance and result in newness of life. What happens after that is surly a matter for God and not a matter of opinion or even doctrine.

As a Jew I love Jewish jokes. My favourite one is “brother how many different doctrines are their about G-d? Ah brother how many Jews are there here!

It is good to have opinions its healthy and inevitable as God Himself doesn’t press on us anything more than what is necessary for life. Beyond that it is up to us to desire a more full knowledge of God and a more purposeful obedience. To that end many born again men and women have born witness to having received the outpouring of The Holy Ghost with power and have marvelled in their ability thereafter to serve God faithfully and more profitably. Hope this doesn’t create more confusion.

C
Croref

by amrkelly on 2012/11/2 5:04:51


“it is The Holy Ghost who is given By God (The Father) to those who obey Him (The Father). As it was The Father who bore witness from Heaven twice regarding His Son, once at The Lord’ baptism and secondly at the Last Supper. . . . I believe the “obedience” which Peter is speaking about here in the first instance is obedience in believing The Father.

. . and does not the "giving" cease if obedience ceases?

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. . and does not the "giving" cease if obedience ceases? croref


No. God is not a man that he should change His mind. Nor are the gifts and the calling of God repented off. If you mean to ask if the outpouring of The Holy Spirit can be quenched or whether we can grieve Him then it is Yes.

The biggest single shock anyone is going to have in life is when they recognise that God is indeed God. The next biggest shock will be realising that despite this He is wonderful and full of goodness and kindness. The third will be that He is righteous. The fourth that He demands righteousness. The fifth that we are sinners. The sixth that we are completely lost. The seventh that we need Him completely. The eighth that He knew it and sent His son to die for us. The ninth will be that we believe Him. The tenth will be that we now know in our spirits that christ was crucified for sin and raised for our justification. We will then fall on our faces and declare My Lord and my God. He will then lift us from the floor and putting us on our two feet will declare My son.

It is not possible to stop believing God. Everything else is a matter of God's purposes in a mans life and a man's willingness to obey God in the leading of the Holy Ghost to live righteously so as to please God.

C
Croref

by amrkelly on 2012/11/2 7:18:21

. . and does not the "giving" cease if obedience ceases? croref


No. God is not a man that he should change His mind. Nor are the gifts and the calling of God repented off. If you mean to ask if the outpouring of The Holy Spirit can be quenched or whether we can grieve Him then it is Yes.

The biggest single shock anyone is going to have in life is when they recognise that God is indeed God. The next biggest shock will be realising that despite this He is wonderful and full of goodness and kindness. The third will be that He is righteous. The fourth that He demands righteousness. The fifth that we are sinners. The sixth that we are completely lost. The seventh that we need Him completely. The eighth that He knew it and sent His son to die for us. The ninth will be that we believe Him. The tenth will be that we now know in our spirits that christ was crucified for sin and raised for our justification. We will then fall on our faces and declare My Lord and my God. He will then lift us from the floor and putting us on our two feet will declare My son.

It is not possible to stop believing God. Everything else is a matter of God's purposes in a mans life and a man's willingness to obey God in the leading of the Holy Ghost to live righteously so as to please God.

Then how does this fit into that:

". . . as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, . . . " Romans 1:28 (KJV)

And this:

". . . .If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15 (KJV)

Know any Christians of the "compromised" sort?

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Then how does this fit into that:

". . . as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, . . . " Romans 1:28 (KJV)

And this:

". . . .If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15 (KJV)

Know any Christians of the "compromised" sort? croref


Brother I do indeed know many saints who compromise their walk on a daily basis. I have been there myself. I have also preached the gospel at times and had men come to me in genuine distress only to find that their distress was not as I had thought (conviction of sin) but grief at their life style of disobedience to the leading of God in their hearts. I have known the temptations of Satan directly to lead me into open rebellion against God and in all of this I knew that God is indeed God. A sudden moment or even a season does not establish the reality of what God has done in someone’s life if that someone has fallen away into disobedience. In the end only God knows who are His. You cannot even really ask someone who is fallen away whether they are born again because they will have no confidence in this reality even though they may very well be born again. Men and women have many reasons outwardly why they fall away, but God is only concerned with inward reality. It will always come down to obedience. And in that I say with a complete conviction in my own spirit having tested it before God for nearly 30 years, God does not reject out of hand those who He has chosen.

What is truly fearful is to witness men and women being persuaded that they are born again when there is no real evidence that they were under conviction of sin nor that they did in fact give there hearts to God in response to the preaching of the gospel of Grace. I have met these kinds of people as well. These are the ones who have no true understanding as to the substance of Christ crucified for sin, nor do they truly comprehend that He was raised from the dead. They are the pew sitters who benefit from association with the elect, but do not have life. Sometimes they are actually seductive individuals and are of all people to be pitied. Sometimes they are pious, legalistic, lacking in mercy and in all but one hour a week they do indeed love the world. They hear the truth many times but it does not penetrate into their hearts or produce any true repentance at all. How to understand them beyond that is in my view a matter for God.

The verse from Romans brother has to be read in context. The context is God’s invisible attributes being visible in the things He has created. And the giving over is a giving over to all manner of things including idolatry. In short the ones being spoken off are those who are wise in their own estimation to the point that they reject the true wisdom of God in favour of their foolish efforts. They were never true believers at all despite the fact that God is visible in the things He has created. Not least man, who was created in His own image and likeness. One other thing brother, to love this world with all of its passions and contradictions is one thing for the unbeliever, but for the believer it would amount to loving that which crucified His Son. When the world crucified God’ only begotten Son it made itself an enemy of God and not simply a contradiction of God. The enmity in the passage means an impossibility of reconciliation. Only turning to God and accepting His estimation of the world so as to be saved out of it, will resolve that problem. In the end His judgement will come upon this world. But we are not off this world we are of Christ if we have believed.

C
Croref

Re:
by amrkelly on 2012/11/2 9:18:52

Then how does this fit into that:

". . . as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, . . . " Romans 1:28 (KJV)

And this:

". . . .If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." 1 John 2:15 (KJV)

Know any Christians of the "compromised" sort? croref


Brother I do indeed know many saints who compromise their walk on a daily basis. I have been there myself. I have also preached the gospel at times and had men come to me in genuine distress only to find that their distress was not as I had thought (conviction of sin) but grief at their life style of disobedience to the leading of God in their hearts. I have known the temptations of Satan directly to lead me into open rebellion against God and in all of this I kn . . . . . . ."

Thanks for that good summation, Brother.

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