God does not go against the will of man.

I don't believe we can understand Jesus Christ without first understanding the creation of man. That said I believe this not simply because of what we are given of Jesus Christ but also of Adam __thus my OP:

God does not go against the will of man.

I make that a statement because in the beginning was it proven to be the case __ even as far back as what we read of Lucifer__ the purpose of whose existence is not yet exhausted.

Note: Though He may sometimes make man willing to be willing, God never forces man to obey.

Our Bible says this: "A man's heart devises his way: but the LORD directs his steps." Proverbs 16:9 (KJV)

Might we see that God uses man's will [good or bad] for His purposes and not of God decreeing this or that thus making man to be a puppet He created to bring about His ultimate intention set in Himself? What was God's ultimate intention from the beginning that if this is true, as I believe it is, can only be accomplished by "love"?

by KrispyKrittr on 2012/11/2 6:46:51

I disagree with the premise of this.

You are basically saying that the course of history has been set by the will of man,

Is this not what was started by Adam __ and that God planned for such an eventuality?

and God has to constantly adjust in order to accomplish His will without violating the will of men. If this is the case the question must be asked: who is the read God? Man or God?

I did not say God's will was determined by man's will? Read the OP again.

by KrispyKrittr on 2012/11/2 8:03:15

I dont know... you've done a good job of being vague enough so that someone can read this and take it in two different directions. :-)

How so?? Unless God made man a robot, He had to use man's freewill to bring about His purposes. Does not the scripture I submitted say as much, i.e., "man devises his way but God directs his steps"? Try to see it as being what God "wills" despite man's will and something He needs not overrule but simply uses..

Who said this: "you meant it for evil but God for good"

"I don't believe we can understand Jesus Christ without first understanding the creation of man. That said I believe this not simply because of what we are given of Jesus Christ but also of Adam __thus my Op"
I'm a little confused...Understanding the creation of man is not a prerequisite to understanding Jesus Christ. I do agree we can not understand the nature of our salvation in Christ without understanding the nature of our lostness in Adam

by stevet83 on 2012/11/2 8:27:37

"I don't believe we can understand Jesus Christ without first understanding the creation of man. That said I believe this not simply because of what we are given of Jesus Christ but also of Adam __thus my Op"
I'm a little confused...Understanding the creation of man is not a prerequisite to understanding Jesus Christ. I do agree we can not understand the nature of our salvation in Christ without understanding the nature of our lostness in Adam

Why not consider what was purposed by God in His forming Adam that Adam did not accomplish and for which Jesus is called the "second Adam"?

Can u phrase the question differently, still not getting it. Thanks

You mean this, Steve?

"Why not consider what was purposed by God in His forming Adam that Adam did not accomplish and for which Jesus is called the "second Adam"?"

What is unclear?

If anyone can see themselves clear of the cross being simply for salvation from hell to see God had something in mind set in Himself, in mankind, that mankind was to be the full expression of Himself in human flesh, then we might understand more the reason for the cross to be the restoration of His Divine purpose.

hi, your understanding of God has good points and errors as does everyones. in 2 posts after being encouraged to go witness;you broughtforth the same statement"why go unless you have the annointing"Jesus is the only annointed one. the Holy Spirit shows up and brings forth that annointing when ever we go and preach Jesus.i have seen hundreds saved and their lives changed in personal witness.the Holy Spirit will come on the scene and change minds and hearts.paul was on his way to persecute christians and was overwhelmed by God without knowing who overwhelmed him."who art thou,Lord"?we all are single plane thinkers,but God sees the end from the beginning.our will must be reversed in order to be saved.we all gather around the same tree adam ate of and gorge at the tree of religion while we reject the tree of Life until the Holy Spirit changes us.jimp

Your post is not that clear and little confusing. But I agree with the parts that I understood. God does not take the free will from man. It is a lie to say that God will do it. The scripture is clear when it says 'Gifts and calling of God are irrevocable' - Romans 11:29. Free Will is a gift that God has given to us. If he removed it from us then we will become Robots. No where in New Covenant it is written that God has removed it from us. But some man-made doctrines that are based on partial truths forces such thinking and that is why many reject this truth in scripture.

If God wanted to remove the freewill he could have done it immediately when Adam and Eve sinned. To understand why he let us have the Freewill we need to understand what Holiness means. God has called us to be Holy and blameless in his sight (Ephesians 1:4). We have planets and stars that obey God and keep spinning around with same velocity each and everyday, can they be considered Holy? No because they do not have a freewill. I can create a Robot that obeys all my commands but I cannot call it a son or daughter, because it does not obey me out of freewill. That is why God gave us this freewill and he will never remove it. Removing it means we can never become Holy.

The concept of Holy Spirit transforming our life comes out of our obedience to him that we choose out of our free will. God strengthens us to be obedient to him. This how even Jesus lived on this earth - 'I have come to do not my will but the will of my father' (John 6). So Jesus himself obeyed his father by not doing his will. He had a will of his own like us but he choose not to do it.

by Sree on 2012/11/2 12:32:05

Your post is not that clear and little confusing. But I agree with the parts that I understood.

I don't see your confusion in this insofar as you seem to understand that given our freewill, God must be using it to bring about His end purpose, i.e., "bringing many sons unto Glory".

Again, you support my contention:

The concept of Holy Spirit transforming our life comes out of our obedience to him that we choose out of our free will. God strengthens us to be obedient to him. This how even Jesus lived on this earth - 'I have come to do not my will but the will of my father' (John 6). So Jesus himself obeyed his father by not doing his will. He had a will of his own like us but he choose not to do it.

freewill, God must be using it to bring about His end purpose, i.e., "bringing many sons unto Glory".

But how God uses our freewill for his Glory is an area in which the Bible is not clear. There should be a purpose for not keeping in plain. May be we do not have the wisdom to understand his ways. Or even a Book like Bible cannot contain the numerous ways in which he can use our free will.

Bible is clear that God has a foreknowledge and he knows the decisions we are going to make. When Adam sinned God was not surprised by it but he immediately revealed his plan to Crush the Satan and deliver mankind from Sin by sending his Son Jesus. But the fact that God knows our future short comings already does not free us from the Judgement for our actions.

the problem is that the free will of man is bondage to his sinfull flesh ,and his sinfull coruptive carnal mind is enmity againsts god and is not subject to the high law of god ,,,,,,but even god decred the cureses of courption to come on mans ofspring ,and all the worlds as a result

in this state of mans carnal mind and will being at emity with god and being in bondage ,,,his origanal free will his not capable of willing to do righeous acts ,,he is a sinnner to the core will and all other emotions are facalitys are stained ,,god must make the first move in any reconcilation that takes place ,,gods will is absulty sovern in this situation

and in the situation of the fall and bongade into courption in wich all men live ,, it is also a soveran act of the all mighty god , that he might show glory and mercy accoring to his good pleasure his good pleaser and pourpus
it is not of him who wills nor him who runs but of god who shows mercy

it is gods free will that makes all the diffrence and he determins who he draws in to full salvation based souly on his pourpus election and i believe of him working goodness in the men he predestines ,,
and he dertimins who he draws part of the way and lets them go ,,and he determins who will remained vailed to glory
it is god who works in you both to will
and to do for his god please

mans will is free to sin is way to hell

if the lord of saboth has not left us the seed
we would all be made in to sodom ,and turned out like gomera i think paul said that

blessings

how god gets glory using us as christans ,tho many dont want to give him the glory he deserves

he works in us both to will and to do for his good pleasuer and his glory

he effects our corupted will that is set againts all godliness ,and mingles his perfect will with ours

therefore when we do what is good ,and use our will for good ,it is god causeing it to happen , it his him working in us to will and to do

so its not about christans having an abrartary free will where by he goes around doing good by is OWN FREENESS OF WILL ,,and people see how good he is by his OWN FREE WILL ,and therfore people say wow them christians are good people ,lets praise jesus

i will cause you to walk in my statutes
and you will be carfull to do them ,,,,said a certaint prophert

it god geting all the glory in any good his children do because it his him that causes and decrees the good deeds

he works through broken vesels ,that he prepared for his own glory ,,vesels of his mercy

it all about him ,and that is all there is to it

wether we like it or not ,thats the GLORY OF GOD

A very good example of what I am speaking of is Abraham making the decision to go into Egypt and when the 10 sons sold Joseph into bondage __and lets not forget Adam.
Now, having said that, can you speak of a time when God went against man's will for the advancement of His purpose__even Balaam makes the cut.

I made the assertion that God only USED man's will to advance His.

a good example of god going againts the sinner is salvation of a carnal sinner whos mind and will is at enmity against god ,, gods makes the rebel willing

the gosple is a spirtual based oracl from the lips of the holy spirit
and the bible says the carnal man can not recieve the things of the spirit for it is foolish to him

the carnal man will not recieve the things of the spirit

the carnal man is not willing to recieve the things of the spirit ,is a fine example of god going agansts the will of man ,and even changing the nature of the will of man ,to be willing to reciev the things of the spirit

a mighty mirical

but it definitly obvious that god even uses the fallen will of men to acomplish his purpose of judment and even blessings ,and what is more he claims that when he does this ,it is him who does it it is a decree set forth from the will of the creator,,,which shows his abslut sovernty over creation and over the so called
free will of man

gods free will in these examples is shown to take preemenence over mans will

just as it is over the wind and the sea

and yet man is not a robot or pupet ,,how unfavenable is his decress an his ways passed finding out ,,,oh paul said somthing like that as well

by brothagary on 2012/11/2 15:27:35

a good example of god going againts the sinner is salvation of a carnal sinner whos mind and will is at enmity against god ,, gods makes the rebel willing

". . . . . then began men to call upon the name of the LORD". Genesis 4:26 (KJV)

Want a few more where God didn't make man do anything you espouse??

Read Romans 1 before replying. Thank you.

hi croef, why do you pull a verse out of gen. to apply to today?we live under a new and better covenant.Jesus has come and has set the captives free. He has ascended into heaven and has sent the comforter in full measure. we now are a peculiar people who are seated with Him in heavenly places.each one of us at one time were enemies of God. in order to be saved the Holy Spirit has moved upon our wicked and evil hearts and made them into hearts of flesh.He had to move onto our wills which were totally egocentric and change us so that we can turn our will over to the Lord.(repentance)He must show us the only way to eternal life is to be buried with Him and in Him daily.jimp

with all respect one should keep the scripture in a full contex

that scripture you posted in genesis ,does not contradict the scripture in the new testament that paul wrote

''when he said the carnal man cannot recieve the things of the spirit;; or the words jesus spoke when he said

''these words i speak to you are spirit''
the bible says the carnl mind of man is ''at enmity against god ''

i used the word rebel to describ the one at enmity against god ,who cant recieve the things of the spirit ,,the bible says cant recieve ,,god must interven to make him willing and able to recieve what is imposable because of him being an enemy of god

god must effect the mind and will is conected to the mind

if we look at pauls conversion ,,his will was greatly effected ,,,god came against paul and pauls stubern christ hating will , and changed it , a miracle one that was so against gods will ,was changed to preach christ , in a short amount of time ,,as he said quot ,,it was god who worked in them both to will and to do

god begane to break his self will ,and worked in him to do some of the most amasing things for gods good pleasure

iv read romons maby a hundered times ,,and it is one of my favourt letters from paul ,wich points to the sovernty of gods will

is there a particular verse you had in mind

that verse you posted in genesis kept in contex with the rest of scripture teaching on the sovernty ,suggest

that god indused men to call on him by his holy spirit by faith

he gave certaint ones revalation of his presence and in that presesnce with that revalation of his reality being ,they called on him ,as many call on him today as you or i

blessings

You can always tell who the reformers are(brothagary). I'm gonna piggyback your statement a little, hope you don't mind.
This thread might get locked...There is a misconception about free will on this site. Free will is the ability for one to choose freely whatever they want apart from an internal influence(my own defenition). Adam and Eve had free will. They chose to sin apart from the power of sin(flesh/ sinful nature) being at work in them. That is a fact. Everything changes though after sin entered into man's nature. At this point, the power of sin(flesh/sinful nature) is a principle at work in man. His nature now is in bondage to sin, meaning there is an inclination/influence towards sin. Man's will/volition is also affected, it is not kept neutral, the Bible makes it clear sin has effected every part of man. He fell from his original position. Man's will now is in bondage to sin. It is not free, it is in bondage, so that the inclination of the heart is evil continually. Man sins naturally. Man, because he is a slave to sin, he is free from righteousness. Man doesn't naturally desire holiness, or anything having to do with God, because he is hell bent. If man does desire these things, it is because of grace. If God left us to our own selves we would all go to hell and suffer His wrath for all eternity. Thank God He chose me! Not because I made the right choice, but because of His grace solo!
Some will say, "How is that fair?" Do you not know that when Adam sinned, I sinned, you sinned, all man sinned? He made the choice we all would've made.
Here's an illustration: Prison is full of convicted felons. They committed a crime and have to do their bid. One day the warden comes in to the cell block and picks 20 inmates out of 100 and says, "You guys, bunk it and junk it(pack up your stuff) you're getting pardoned". It's not because they are different or better than the others, but because the warden takes pleasure in fulfilling his own will. He wanted to do it, plain and simple. Do the others yell, "That's not fair?" How can they? Did they not brake the law? And deserve to be there?
What was different about Paul? He was a pharisee like the others. Some will say, "God chose him because He knew that Paul was schooled in the Jewish faith, and he'd be able to find common ground with them" It sounds good but not Biblical. What Paul taught, wasn't what he learned in Hebrew school. It was given by revelation(Gal. 1)Paul considered himself chief among sinners, he would've kept persecuting if he hadn't been seperated then called by His grace(Gal. 1)
Man's sinfulness is a fact, God's grace is a must. What does the Scripture say? I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteosness can be obtained by the law, then Christ died in vain.
Why did God choose Abram? It's funny cause in Gen. it gives these lists of geneologies and right after God spoke to Abram. The Earth was full of people yet God chose Abram. Interesting...

Romans as does the rest of scripture teaches clearly that men are Guilty because of their ability, the scripture does not teach that men are guilty because of their inability.

I would recommend to everyone when reading Romans to start at ch 1 if you do not first get the ground work for the book of Romans you will be confused when you get to ch 9.

I would also recommend to everyone to use a Bible that correctly translates the greek word Katecho as "hold" In Romans ch 1 v 18 rather than "suppress".
little translation changes like these can greatly confuse the understanding of what is written.

Hi stevet83

//Here's an illustration: Prison is full of convicted felons//

But Prisons are not full of infants nor are men their because of their fathers.
They are their because first their had to be a law and than secondly they have had to personally break that law.
Where their is no law their is no sin

proudpapa,
Romans as does the rest of scripture teaches clearly that men are Guilty because of their ability, the scripture does not teach that men are guilty because of their inability.

Fact is, everyone born is a sinner before they actually commit a sin.

before i could get water baptized the paster had to ask me questions. One question was, how many times does a person need to sin to be a sinner?

proudpapa,
"..They are their because first their had to be a law and than secondly they have had to personally break that law."

Law of Concience: To know what you ought to do and you do not do it that is sin.

Governing Law: The law of the land.

God's Law: Ten Commandments.

God's standard: Holiness.

Paul said, "I do not need anyone to judge me, for I do not even judge myself. though my councience be clear that does not make me innocent, for it is God who judges.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God is Holy anything short of that is sin, that's the standard. It isn't subjective.

Hi stevet83

stevet83 wrote ///proudpapa,
"..They are their because first their had to be a law and than secondly they have had to personally break that law."

Law of Concience: To know what you ought to do and you do not do it that is sin.

Governing Law: The law of the land.

God's Law: Ten Commandments.

God's standard: Holiness.

Paul said, "I do not need anyone to judge me, for I do not even judge myself. though my councience be clear that does not make me innocent, for it is God who judges.

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God is Holy anything short of that is sin, that's the standard. It isn't subjective.///

Yes, none of this includes infants. Pauls says I was alive without the law once:... This was Paul as an infant innocent with no Law

Hi stevet83

stevet83 wrote ///Fact is, everyone born is a sinner before they actually commit a sin.///

No fact is everyone is born innocent. Sin is choice not substance as what the gnostics taught

All have sinned

///All have sinned///

The free gift came upon all men

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

sorry but don't know what gnostics taught. sin is not only a choice. It is what you do, say, think, and desire.
sin is also a power that is at work in the natural man, it's refered to as the flesh or sinful nature.

I guess all are saved then..

Hi stevet83

stevet83 wrote ///it's refered to as the flesh or sinful nature///

The Bible never uses the word sinful nature.

I don't wanna bicker about what you believe. You think babies are innocent, that's fine.

stevet83 wrote ///I guess all are saved then..///

Lets not mock scripture just because it does not back up our theolgy.

That was Romans ch 5 v 18

In context of other scripture we no it is talking about the Drawing of all men

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

sorry i used modern translation, scratch sinful nature, and just use flesh.

I don't know where you're comming from. I don't know theoloy. I know what i read in the Bible.

Hi stevet83

stevet83 wrote ///I don't wanna bicker about what you believe. You think babies are innocent, that's fine///

I would encourage everyone to do an unbias research of history on why infant Baptism was taught and how those whom believed in infant Baptism treated those whom rejected the idea that infants where guilty and taught believers baptism

Hi stevet83

stevet83 wrote ///sorry i used modern translation, scratch sinful nature, and just use flesh///

Like I said translation is very important

stevet83 answer me this did Jesus have a sinful nature??

I would encourage that you get a literal translation of the scripture

Paris Reidhead on Augustine and original sin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHgsZv1JyJE

Let me say this. I am sorry for offending you with whatever I said. Please let me know specificly what it is so I can answer it. My comment, "all are saved then" was a response to your comment, not scripture. Please don't nit pick words to paint a distorted picture.

Literal translation? Really? Help me out here.

Hi stevet83 I am not at all offended nor am I at all upset I am just showing another perspective one that I am coming to that seems to be more scriptural, may I be wrong in some of my assumptions? I have been in the past so there is no reason for me to think that I have it all figured out now.

my comment was directly cut and past from scripture and than I gave the scripture from which It came from

RE: ///Literal translation? Really? Help me out here///

The NIV is not a literal translation it is a Dynamic equivalence (thought for thought) The translater where very bias with changing things to fit their reformed theolgy. Everwhere that you see the word sinful nature it is not the greek word for sin nor for nature it is the greek word Sarx. 1 John says

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (sarx) is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world

Sarx does not mean sinful nature it simply means flesh and includes the mind of the flesh

You didn't agree with me saying all have sinned, you said babies aren't included, I repeated all have sinned. You then quoted a verse about all being made righteous, I assumed you were trying to imply that means all men. If that is the case then all are saved. When in fact "all" in Romans 5 is only those who are in Christ.

I don't even know what perspective you're talking about because you haven't said it, could you let me know please.

stevet83 wrote /// When in fact "all" in Romans 5 is only those who are in Christ.///

The Free gift has come upon all the same as the condemnation came upon all men.

sin revived from our parents to us when we understood the law and personally failed it. that is the condemnation that came upon us. Paul says "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." this was paul innocent as a Baby growing up under the law understanding it failing at this point in Pauls life sin(guilt)revives at this point in time from one generation to the next. Paul said at this moment I died as what 1 Cor 15 22 says For as in Adam all die.

like wise "even so in Christ shall all be made alive"

Like wise "even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

That is the free gift is offered to all men but many will reject it

.

So you have a problem with the NIV. I'm not schooled enough to discuss translations, nor do i know the intentions of 'biased" translaters. Sarx is used for the physical body, and as u said "the mind of the flesh" which I'm assuming is the natural man or the carnal mind, and as I put it "flesh/sinful nature" to show the context of my using "flesh".
Either way there is a distinction clearly seen with Adam and Eve prior to sinning, people who aren't born again, and those that are. The distinction is the death of flesh/natural man/carnal mind and the "new creature" who is in Christ. Is that better?

Hi stevet83

stevet83 wrote ///Either way there is a distinction clearly seen with Adam and Eve prior to sinning,///

They where innocent with no law, naked and not ashamed just as an infant

the kingdom of heaven is of the such as little children

stevet83 wrote //The distinction is the death of flesh/natural man/carnal mind and the "new creature" who is in Christ. Is that better?//

well said

I should add if you have not been born again you are controlled by the flesh. Paul says "dead in your trespasses and sin"

hi stevet83

no disagreements, the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

by stevet83 on 2012/11/2 8:27:37

"I don't believe we can understand Jesus Christ without first understanding the creation of man. That said I believe this not simply because of what we are given of Jesus Christ but also of Adam __thus my Op"

I'm a little confused...Understanding the creation of man is not a prerequisite to understanding Jesus Christ. I do agree we can not understand the nature of our salvation in Christ without understanding the nature of our lostness in Adam

Lostness?? Is that the only perspective available to us? Adam was created to be lost just so God could save him??

How 'bout if Adam had not transgressed__what then? Would we then study to understand his nature?? How 'bout considering that fact of Jesus being the second Adam __ as He is called? What was His Nature that was purposed for Adam had Adam eaten of the tree of life that is now open for us if we overcome, by the "Blood of the Lamb"?

How 'bout considering the "why" of creation? What was God desiring to have for Himself but many sons, "brought unto glory"__all expressing Himself in Divine human flesh as Jesus eventually did to become the "first of first fruits" Adam was PURPOSED to be?? If you don't believe that then ask, "Why not"?? Why not the first Adam??

Does it always have to be Jesus redeeming man for our sinful nature we [self-center] on, believing we are victims and Him save us from hell's fire and damnation__all this for His pleasure__ God decreeing sin just for this purpose?

If, as some do, believe He decreed everything then why not consider why He didn't decree holiness?? There is no sin in Him that He could do so!!! He is Holy!

His new creation, built upon the new foundation of redemption by Jesus Christ, is a Holy Nation of Holy people newly born of Him to show forth His Glory and Praises! These will be the folk who will rule and reign with Him. I believe this people will be the only "raptured" ones, mentioned in Rev 12 as the man-child, the multi-membered body of those in union with Himself and the Father per John 17.

May I suggest giving this all consideration and begin to read your Bibles from a fresh perspective that will take you Home to "Father's House".

The OP simply states God uses man's freewill for His purposes; to bring about His "will in Earth as it is in Heaven".

Why is this being overlooked??? If it wasn't as the OP, then God would have settled all scores thousands of years ago.

by brothagary on 2012/11/2 16:46:32

with all respect one should keep the scripture in a full contex

that scripture you posted in genesis ,does not contradict the scripture in the new testament that paul wrote

''when he said the carnal man cannot recieve the things of the spirit;; or the words jesus spoke when he said

''these words i speak to you are spirit''
the bible says the carnl mind of man is ''at enmity against god ''

So where is the "enmity against God" revealed in Genesis 4:26? The issue of "totally depravity" is put to rest with just that one verse. I would hope you see that and be adjusted in your theology.

hi Brothertom

excellent insight from Suzanna Wesley.

The only Cross that a child can understand is the rod of correction. The rod of correction removes guilt from the childs soul as what only the cross Can do for the adult.

If only Men could understand the correlation between personal Guilt and sin much confusion in scripture would be erased. People are not born guilty!
Theolgy has made a mess of our understanding

While Jesus says: "If you love Me__keep My commandments".

Matthew
3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance
3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

by proudpapa on 2012/11/3 8:28:32

Matthew
3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance
3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Jesus said all that?

John the Baptist

Edit ps. Hi Croref the scriptures I posted was not in response to any of you post, I was just pointing them out to show the mind set of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

OK. Did you post it for a reason?

The Will; Three Men who were overcome by God's will.
by Brothertom on 2012/11/4 2:39:08

Abraham: Bearing Isaac. ???

Joseph: His trip to Egypt and prison. ????

Paul the Apostle: Knocked off of his horse while murdering Christians. ?????

Of course this is simplistic, and the Bible is full of these encounters with his chosen vessels.

The most blessed of all of these interventions with the will of men, may well be this:

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." ????

This includes willful sin, such as Paul's murder and torture of believers, and sin derived from rebellion within our sinful natures.[ "looking upon a woman with lust in your heart=adultery.] ????

Has God ever chosen an unrighteous individual to do His righteousness? __actually gone against the will of such a one to make him obey and follow instructions?? First off, God would have to make him righteous that the individual not hate Him, that God never did. That doesn't even fit Paul!__ and certainly not anyone else you posited.

Question: Could God have made Cain change his disposition? Why not?

by proudpapa on 2012/11/3 8:44:39

John the Baptist

Edit ps. Hi Croref the scriptures I posted was not in response to any of you post, I was just pointing them out to show the mind set of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Gotcha! Thanks Proud__and Hi!

dear croref, God always uses the unrighteous and makes them righteous.abram wss from ur and into astrology and other Gods.ruth was a moabite who worshipped false Gods. you were in bondage to sin and an enemy of God and God changed you."you did not choose Me I chose you." i was arrested maybe 40 times and worked for the mafia and God saved me.samson and david both had colorful lives in sinning and serving.God changed them.jimp

I am reminded of Israel's sojourn in Egypt. God said that the time of their dwelling in Egypt would be 400 years.

Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years

Yet, they were in Egypt for 430 years.

Exo 12:40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.

What comes immediately to mind is, why the discrepancy. God had prepared and chosen Moses to be the man to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt. Moses knew this at least 40 years prior to the event (390 years in). At this time Moses was 40 years old. Yet, like many of us, Moses got ahead of God and tried to accomplish this work in his own time and own flesh. Moses was a capable and able leader. No doubt a military genius, for Luke tells us that he was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and mighty in word and deed. But he got ahead of God and tried to pull off the exodus 10 years early.

Act 7:23-25
(23) And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
(24) And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
(25) For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.

The result was a 40 year trip to the back side of the desert while God finished preparing Moses. The cost...God's plan was delayed 30 years. The implication...Like Moses, our choices are important, and can impact what God has chosen to do.

Let me throw in another scripture. Paul speaks in Romans 11 of Israel's blindness. He says that this blindness will continue until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. This is implying the full number of the Gentiles. So, it seems, the coming of the Lord is not linked to a fixed date in time, but rather to the completion of a fixed number of people. In Matthew 24:14, Jesus gives a very similar statement. He says that the gospel must be preached to the whole world, and then the end. It is these two scriptures and their implication that drives much of our present day Bible translation and missions programs. Many desire to hasten the coming of the Lord, so they do their best to reach the world with the Gospel.

So it seems clear that, in some cases, not only does God not contradict the will of man, but the will of man has the ability to effect the plans of God.

Notice that I said "effect" and not "change". There are events ordained that will come to pass no matter the actions of man, but, like Moses, man can effect the timing of these events.

However, we cannot say that God does not contradict man's will in all cases. For instance, it was not the will of Elymas to be blind for a season. In fact, I would surmise that this blindness was definitely against His will. Nor was it the will of Saul to be knocked off His horse and blinded. Yet it occurred. The list could continue.

So I think I could ask and answer a few questions this way...
Does God ever contradict the will of man? Yes.
Does man ever have the power to delay or altar God's plans? Yes.

I know that God has ordained that I do certain things in my lifetime. He has shown me one of them. I am, honestly, battling some fear of the unknown in stepping out in faith and obedience to do what He as told me to do, although I am determined to do it, no matter the fear, etc.. Yet I have known men with calls on their lives who have rejected those calls, or who have, for a period of time, put off obeying God. Through doing so these men have caused the will of God, ultimately, to nothing in their lives. What God willed for them was not done.

This question is one of what I might call the lifetime questions. The directions that we could go with it and the ensuing discussion could be endless. I personally think it is wise for a person to look carefully at all of the Biblical examples and simply take them at face value.

I will admit readily that I have a very limited understanding of God and His workings among man. I think we are all in that boat together. There is much that I do not know. The best I can do is look at scripture and say, "Well, it seems to have happened this way right here."

Blessings.

by jimp on 2012/11/4 4:16:44

Sorry jimp. I can't agree. Abraham was righteous and that is the reason He chose him.

OMT, I came to Christ, being persuaded by the message about Him. Was I saved? Did He choose me? Please explain what takes place when He does or if He does?

by twayneb on 2012/11/4 4:47:33

Thank you, twayneb!

What you have posited is probably the best [return] understanding [put into words] I can look forward to. That said, you left out one consideration that needs be entered into the equation, i.e., the foreknowledge of God. I invite you to, not that for the most part it is needed, think about that and make any adjustment to your reply you may wish to.

Words mean something. I am always open to sound ones. Thanks again.

"So I think I could ask and answer a few questions this way..."

"Does God ever contradict the will of a man? Yes"

"Does man ever have the power to delay or alter God's plans? Yes"

Your answers are based on foreknowledge, and the fact that God has given man free will. The free will that has been given to believers, is in hopes that they will aligned themselves with the plans and purposes of God, and walk in the fear of the Lord. It is the Spirit of God that works in us both to will and to do. As long as you continue in "foreknowledge" you will forever reason with God..and in doing so, fulfill the purposes and plans in your life, that you yourself have chosen.

Re: God does not go against the will of man.\tReply To This Post |

This business of God’ choosing particular individuals is a difficult thing to understand. On the face of it one could say that God chose all the men and women He has used. Some like Lot and David for example appear to show that God chose and did so knowing the heart and attitude of the man in question as well. So in choosing Lot . . .

Hi amrkelly!, Where can we read it that God chose Lot__for anything?

by arkp on 2012/11/4 5:46:16

"So I think I could ask and answer a few questions this way..."

"Does God ever contradict the will of a man? Yes"

"Does man ever have the power to delay or alter God's plans? Yes"

Your answers are based on foreknowledge, and the fact that God has given man free will. The free will that has been given to believers, is in hopes that they will aligned themselves with the plans and purposes of God, and walk in the fear of the Lord. It is the Spirit of God that works in us both to will and to do. As long as you continue in "foreknowledge" you will forever reason with God..and in doing so, fulfill the purposes and plans in your life, that you yourself have chosen.

. . . for which God will in either instance, work to/for His purposes. Did He not say He creates evil [mischief] for His purposes? __but never against "the will of one who sets his affections on things above"__that would hinder His relationship with them. "Lead us not into temptation", was the prayer of Jesus.

by amrkelly on 2012/11/4 5:56:51

Where can we read it that God chose Lot__for anything? croref

I wrote Lot but intended to write Job. But to answer your question Lot had every good reason to curse God because he lived in a filthy and Godless city which must have been a continuous grievous burden to Him. Yet he was found righteous. He was "chosen" to be saved from the city. Job is of course much simpler. God was confident in Him from the beginning.

Though righteous, his will being set in God, Lot chose his "lot". God, by Abraham, rescued him because of it. Not only that but God cannot deny Himself__Himself being righteousness Lot exhibited from himself.__and it was not self righteousness that saved him.

re Job:

He was not chosen by God except for his righteousness, as one who could be trusted. Wasn't that so?

Seems like you agree with me that God does not go against man's will. Job's will was set in God, wasn't it? Would he have objected had he known be forehand? Did Abraham when required to offer Isaac? BTW, was anyone in all this, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, given special grace to perform as God could only hope for?

hi, abram in fact disobeyed God when he brought lot with him.jimp away from thy fathers house and from thy kin...

by jimp on 2012/11/4 6:19:13

hi, abram in fact disobeyed God when he brought lot with him.jimp away from thy fathers house and from thy kin...

Yes he did, didn't he?

Did God object, shake Abraham and say "Hey! I said just you!!?" No, God used it all.

Lets make this to apply to the issue of Ishmael as well. Did God stop him?

none seek after God on their own the scripture is clear about this. Romans ,1John ,every where in the Bible is clear about this, But that Drawing is proclaimed to all Men after Christ went to the Cross.

Men are guilty because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Man is guilty because of his ability not because of his inability !!!

Theolgy has made a mess of Chistianity!

by proudpapa on 2012/11/4 6:32:03

none seek after God on their own the scripture is clear about this.

The scripture is quite clear that you are quoting David in his circumstances as well as Isaiah, Jeremiah and God Himself with regards to the societal issues of that day. It was never to be taken to be a universal declaration. Why? Because it isn't true.

Quote: Picture yourself in a hall way that has no windows but many doors. There is one door that leads to God and the other doors lead to ambition, pride and pleasures. We open the doors to everything but God's door. Than God sends a carpenter and removes each door one by one and finally what were left with is the door that leads to God. In order to get out of that hallway and move on in life, I am forced to go with God. My will has been crushed, thus I am forced to obey God.

But God doesn't send in a carpenter to close all the windows. What he does is that he gives you understanding and because you understand you can make a right choice so you walk past the other doors.

So it's not a case of being forced to go with God, you choose to go with God you want to go with God...

Hi Croref

Croref wrote ///The scripture is quite clear that you are quoting David in his circumstances as well as Isaiah, Jeremiah and God Himself with regards to the societal issues of that day. It was never to be taken to be a universal declaration. Why? Because it isn't true.///

Romans ch 3 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

It is the reason that the Law has been given to bring everyone under condemnation, As a way to Draw them to back to God.

The entire World is under this Drawing

murrcolr wrote ///But God doesn't send in a carpenter to close all the windows. What he does is that he gives you understanding and because you understand you can make a right choice so you walk past the other doors.

So it's not a case of being forced to go with God, you choose to go with God you want to go with God...///

Well said

Re: Croref universal declaration.
by proudpapa on 2012/11/4 10:25:37

Hi Croref

Croref wrote ///The scripture is quite clear that you are quoting David in his circumstances as well as Isaiah, Jeremiah and God Himself with regards to the societal issues of that day. It was never to be taken to be a universal declaration. Why? Because it isn't true.///

Romans ch 3 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Read all that and you still got all wrong. "AS IT IS WRITTEN" carries great weight in the understanding that passage 'traditional reform" [s]thinkers messed up __and I, for one, believe it was on purpose to preserve their agenda.. All you have to do is reference the passage to understand and that Paul ONLY used it [them] to make his point. Even "common" sense will testify to that being the case. C'mon, I'll give you 2 outta 3.

Re: God does not go against the will of man.
by Approved on 2012/11/4 8:35:26

Though He may sometimes make man willing to be willing, God never forces man to obey. God is leaving him no other choice but to chose Him.

Not so, unless you believe rebelliousness is of a different color?

In order to get out of that hallway and move on in life, I am forced to go with God. My will has been crushed, thus I am forced to obey God.

Your mistake is believing God sends a carpenter. He doesn't. He sends that which he "foreknows" will move you in His direction by influence and not force. In this even Paul was no exception. Think about Paul's prior life before saying I'm wrong.

I hope you all are enjoying this exchange as I am.

It's even getting me to check myself real close like__after my foot goes in my mouth. . .))

Hi Croref

I am certainly not a 'traditional reform thinker. I would be persecuted by all of the reformers and persecuted by the council of Dort and persectued as was the Boston martyrs by the puritans had I lived in any of their times.

But scripture Is clear We love him, because he first loved us.

Quote:Well said

Thanks proud papa

My observation is that even though many people may disagree with some of Croref understandings he is not getting heated nor offended.

I for one am also enjoying this exchange, I Like a good challenge when The challenger is not getting emotional

Thanks all. I did say I put my foot in my mouth __I mean that to be from time to time and not all the time. Hopefully having made that clear, I also am open to being rectified by by more complete thinking __and hopefully from the saints who are learning to be faithful in Christ..

Thank you, twayneb!

What you have posited is probably the best [return] understanding [put into words] I can look forward to. That said, you left out one consideration that needs be entered into the equation, i.e., the foreknowledge of God. I invite you to, not that for the most part it is needed, think about that and make any adjustment to your reply you may wish to.

Words mean something. I am always open to sound ones. Thanks again.

Croref: Like I said, there are many ways that this discussion could go. So many times we tend to approach scripture wearing sunglasses the color of our choosing and as a result we see and interpret all scriptures through that lens. When we do this, a polarizing effect is produced in us and in the body of Christ. We need to be careful that we do not drive off into a ditch on either side of an issue.

You are right, I did not address foreknowledge. I did not feel that it was not necessary to do so to answer the question at hand. I sought only to give some scriptural examples that would indicate that at times man's decisions impact the timing and perhaps the actual fulfillment of God's will.

As to divine foreknowledge, we can, I think, make an important observation. We, as men, do not have the divine perspective. We now see through a glass darkly. We could argue ad-nausaeum about whether God pre-determines all events, knows the ultimate outcome of every decision that man makes. Yet none of our arguments is able to establish with absolute, Biblical clarity that which only the Spirit of the Lord knows. If they were, then the argument would cease, would it not? We are often so sure we know, and we so often have our theological ducks lined up, only to have that one scripture that keeps bothering us deep within the recesses of our mind.

I have been pretty sure I understood some things, only to have scriptures placed before me that seemed to undo all that I thought I knew so well. This is the reason for the scriptural admonition to study to show ourselves approved.

I say all of that to say this. Our knowledge of scripture is like working a jig-saw puzzle. We begin by putting together the clearly delineated borders. This is the framework of our faith. At this point we cannot see the entire picture, and we have only the vaguest idea of where things might fit. Then we begin to fit pieces together. We might have a patch of color, a barn, a horse, a tree, etc. but we don't know yet how it fits into the whole. I am convinced that we will continue to put in the pieces, hopefully under the direction of the Holy Spirit, until Jesus returns, and we will still not be able to see the whole picture.

I cannot say for sure that God has total foreknowledge of every individual decision that is made by men. Certainly it is within His power to do so. Perhaps He does. Or, along with giving man free will, perhaps He has chosen not to know. I can say of a certainty that the prophecy that came by the Spirit of God of 400 years was extended to 430 years by the decision of Moses to get the show on the road prior to God's ordained time frame. I can say that I have seen men for whom God's will did not come to pass due to their own decisions.

To those who have a low view of God but a high view of themselves: REPENT!

To those who think that God isn't sovereign inasmuch as He must submit His plans to the creature's will: REPENT!

To those who exalt the will of man so as to subvert God's prerogative and divine purposes: REPENT!

The truth: Man's will is subservient to God's purposes.

The truth: No one can accuse God of wrongdoing, since we are found guilty on the basis of the transgression of a universal knowledge of God (found in creation and in the conscience - Romans 1 & 2). Redemption is purely God's prerogative and His merciful condescension; He does not owe man anything besides judgment based on his rebellion against God.

The truth: When God changes someone's heart, that person WILLINGLY comes to Christ, nor forcefully.

We must recognize the difference between archtypal knowledge and ectypal knowledge, especially since God condescends to our level in order to communicate with us using our language, which does not necessarily relate univocally with the way things are to Him, but rather analogically. Thus, when the Bible says that God "repented" or "changed His mind", we must understand this within the context of God's condescension to interact with us, not as a breach of His sovereign divinity (much in the same way that God does not literally have "wings" - Psalm 36:7).

In Christ,
Renoncer

y twayneb on 2012/11/4 12:16:44

Thank you, twayneb!

What you have posited is probably the best [return] understanding [put into words] I can look forward to. That said, you left out one consideration that needs be entered into the equation, i.e., the foreknowledge of God. I invite you to, not that for the most part it is needed, think about that and make any adjustment to your reply you may wish to.

Words mean something. I am always open to sound ones. Thanks again.

Croref: Like I said, there are many ways that this discussion could go. So many times we tend to approach scripture wearing sunglasses the color of our choosing and as a result we see and interpret all scriptures through that lens. When we do this, a polarizing effect is produced in us and in the body of Christ. We need to be careful that we do not drive off into a ditch on either side of an issue.

You are right, I did not address foreknowledge. I did not feel that it was not necessary to do so to answer the question at hand. I sought only to give some scriptural examples that would indicate that at times man's decisions impact the timing and perhaps the actual fulfillment of God's will.

Thank you twayneb,

Faith notwithstanding, we can't complete thought processes without considering it and that is why I pointed it out to you. And I am not meaning to imply God predetermining anything but only that which applies to His purposes does He deal with that it all comes out as He plans..Man devises, God directs. He works within His foreknowledge to anticipate everything__and why wouldn't He? The account of Adam's transgression gives us this understanding. What can else can be more known to Him before it happens that might be called, "foreknowledge"?

Quote: "He sends that which he "foreknows" will move you in His direction by influence and not force. In this even Paul was no exception. Think about Paul's prior life before saying I'm wrong."

Acts 9:4-6 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

So forceful was Pauls encounter with Jesus, Paul trembling ask, "what wilt thou have me to do?".

Being knocked of His horse, blinded, spoken to by Glory Himself and told what He "MUST" do, I see to be pretty forceful.

Then the understanding comes, being with JEsus for over three years; Galatians 1:15-17 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Pretty much the same with all God's chosen, Moses burning bush etc. and the cleft of the rock, Jacob bad hip from a wrestling match, Peter's rooster, etc. Pretty much, God in control of all His children, especially those that He puts His Incorruptable Seed, The Livimg Word Himself, Jesus; in, being born again; that we become the offspring of God our new Father. God's choice of sons', not mans choice of a father. Who is able to choose their own Father?

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Christinyou

Christinyou wrote
///God's choice of sons', not mans choice of a father. Who is able to choose their own Father?///

Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent

by Christinyou on 2012/11/5 12:30:50

Quote: "He sends that which he "foreknows" will move you in His direction by influence and not force. In this even Paul was no exception. Think about Paul's prior life before saying I'm wrong."

Acts 9:4-6 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

So forceful was Pauls encounter with Jesus, Paul trembling ask, "what wilt thou have me to do?".

Being knocked of His horse, blinded, spoken to by Glory Himself and told what He "MUST" do, I see to be pretty forceful.

Did not God foreknow this time would come in Paul's life He Himself was responsible for because of His direction given Him by the will of Paul? God did not choose one who He foreknew would NOT respond to His pressure in the afterwards of Paul's choices. Research this thing back to Balaam to see how God deals with such a one who refused to.