the first sin

oridgnaly our father of dust the first adam commited sin against god ,and as we christians are now part of the body of christ who is the seconed adam ,we were part of the body of adam , in whoms loins we all were

in the same way we now partake of the devine nature through being born again ,
we all partook of image of the man of dust ,a corputed nature ,,,that which is born of flesh is flesh ,in a wider contex speaks about us being born spirtual dead

when adam oridgnaly sinned all those in the body of adam died the spirtual death ,and we remained dead in adam ,till we were made alive in christ ,,bless god

roms ;5 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men

tho as the sons of adam willfully sin and hold down and supress the reveled comons truths of concence and gods atrubutes

romans teaches it was through adams firts sin , that resulted in us being condemed and found guilty ,contrary to popular teachings

romons 5;19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

not only did the sons of adam suffer condemnation because of adams sin ,,we in adam were all made sinners as mentioned before

we bore the image of the man of dust as paul said

this hapend wile in the loins of adam ,,

made sinners refures to us being created sinners , this happend in one scence before the foundation of the world ,and was experanced at conception or creation of our bodies

rom 5;12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

we from this verse see that death came to all thoses that sinned

and the fact remains that as babies and children experance death ,,,,this proves that death can come upon them beause they were in adam when he sinned ,, when adam sinned and died spirtual all who are in his body sinned and died spirtual ,,and the reflection of is the pycical death that can be expernced any time in the natural mans life

we in christ inherit death ,through christs death along with resarection life ,,bless god

we who are in or were in adam inherit sin and death with out resarection life , through adams sin and his spirtual death

in contrass

the gift of righeoteous is imputed to us through christ and his righeousness

roms 5 18and through one mans offence (adam), judment came to all men resulting in condemnation

the curse of sin ws imputed ,because of adams disobedance

in the same way the elect were created to partake in the devine nature ,through death and resarection
roms 6;5 says we were united with him in his death

humans were united to partake in the courption of adam through his spirual death ,and inherit the opasite of the devine nature

that god might show what it means to express grace and mercy, in all there defenitions

with out the fall ,there woould be no mercy or justafication and full expresions of grace

god works all thing for good to thoses who are called according to his pourpus

amen

Amen...
Under Adam:
We're born in sin and inherit condemnation .

Under Christ:
We're born again in righteousness and inherit eternal life

just for the record bro ,,iv never ever read a comentary from any reformer or even been a member of a reformed church ,or herd a sermon on oridgnal sin ,,tho i do believe some of what is called reformed doctrine

i just think the bible teaches oridgnal sin and other doctrines that are taught in reformed circuls

blessings

p1118 Niv Student Bible 1 John commentary Zondervan 1992
//Gnostics balked at the Christian concept of Gods becoming human.because they believed a physical body was intrinsically evil,they denied a pure God could take on a body. Some dealt with the problem by claiming that Jesus was never a human being,but a phantom,a temporary appearance of God who looked human....
The apostle John debated in person with gnostics of his day,and had Gnostic thinking in mind when he wrote this letter.....
throughout the letter especially in 4:2-3,the author lambastes those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh.....
Live as you please
To Gnostics all matter was evil . Only the Spirit was pure,and Gnostics sought to rise to a higher more spirtual plane.This teaching produced side effect:people who strove to rise above matter didn't care about personal ethics.Their pure spirits could not be tainted by "earthly" sin Thus,they could act any way they wanted.//

If the physical body is intrinsically evil Than what about the flesh of Jesus ??

Was Jesus Christ our Lord, not made of the seed of David according to the flesh ??

Hi amrkelly, the last post in that thread which by the way I will say was written by a dear sister,but that does not mean that I am in agreement was Augustines position I see very little evidence for it other than the Fact that Jesus was begotten Of God and not Joseph.(a large conclusion to form just from that fact)

amrkelly can you show any evidence of such a position being held by the early church fathers before Augustine??

all matter is not evil, only a gnostic would sugest that

but as james said ,the spirit the dwels in man lusts to do evil ,
matter is good a courptive influenec did inter in to the spirit or the heart of man ,,leading to do evil

the bible talks about those who are born againg are not born of courptable seed john chapter 1

the courption is inbeded in to the seed of adam ,, not only that we also see this coruption in animals and plants ,,which was subject to futility but not willingly paul said that,,,,it grones in this courption ,till the reveling of the sons of god

this is not gnostisims ,,,becase it is the opasite

matter is good ,,but the spirit is evil is what total depravity is ,that was the result of the oridgnal sin

they say matter is evil and spirit is good

its utterly a satanic doctrine

men being givern over to the evil prince ,,the spirit of the prince and power of the air ,which is the spirit that works in the children of desobedance

in which we all walked before the new birth

paul taught that

blessings

i hope you and your wife are doing well andrew ,,good to see your still posting here

blessings

Hi amrkelly even though I have not came to the same conclusion as what you have on this subject, I also am glad to see you posting, you have much to offer.

Hi amrkelly even though I have not came to the same conclusion as what you have on this subject, I also am glad to see you posting, you have much to offer.

your right proudpapa i agree he has much to offer,,tho my hearts resonates with much andrews writes

oh that link you posted was an interestion read andrew

I think often times people jump to a strong defense of this doctrine because they think that by denying it that you are some how denying the sinfulness of mankind or somehow suggesting that man is able to save himself apart from the Grace of God or that some how by denying this doctrine, that men are some how denying their own personal sinfulness.

None of the which I find is a true, Preachers whom have challenged this doctrine have been blacklisted from the Church such as Finney.

Of all the sermons that I have heard the one that seems to expose mans depravity the best and most accurately I feel is Ten Shekels and a Shirt by Paris Reidhead.
of whom spoke out strongly against Augustines understanding of original sin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHgsZv1JyJE

Brothagary,
My bad bro, my intention wasn't to label, just to point out an obvious distinction between those who believe in this doctrine(myself included) please accept my sincere apology... I to do not consider myself a Calvinist or any other "ist", but some things are to clear to deny in the Scriptures.

Your bro in Christ,
Steve.

no brother steve ,i never said what i said ,to get an apolagy,,no need to apolagiz ,,i never concidered it an attack ,,bless you ,,just thought i would make my possision a little more clear that all

blessings

hi proud papa

iv herd ten shekels many times ,and listent to the link you posted ,,,,

and what iv noticed and disagree with is that both do not deal with or explain that scripture that expressed the idea of us all being made sinners by adams desobedence

romans 5;19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

we all know what parise says and agree that we wanted to sin so we are sinners for that reason

but the bibles we were made sinners by adams transgreshen

and this is not delt with

we can all rave talk about the false doctrine one like augustine held and blame him for the reformed churches teaching orignal sin ...which may be partly true

but whoes going to explain and give and exposae of the verses like the one above and the others i posted like

roms ;5 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men

which shows i believe verry clearly we are condemed in adam becasue of the first and ordiginal sin comited by our parents

thats the question

i here everyone esteam the bible and so we should ,,why then do we go to sermons from others who in my view have not givern a fullexposision on the versees that are usesd to suport the doctrine of oridginal sin to explain what the verses are realy saying

paris reid head does not touch at all on these verses

i cant work out why this is ,

blessings

Hi brothagary

Why did God make man??

Why did God create man so that he could sin??

Why Did God place the temptation right in the midst of the garden ??

Romans 5 is speaking of physical death, no one is denying that the fall had serious implications for all of mankind and all of creation, My point is that the infant is naked and not ashamed he has no guilt in his conscience because he understands no law as Romans 5 says "sin is not imputed when there is no law." nevertheless Death still reigns as we agree Adams sin has consequences for all of creation being removed from the Garden from God from the tree of life causes everything to naturally die.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Just as when we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead righteousness is imputed on us at this moment.

When we personally come into a state of understanding as Paul speakes of in Romans 7:9 and we fail our own understanding (our own judgmentof right and wrong guilt enters into the conscience and condemnation (Sin) is revived from our parents unto our own. Paul says at this state "I died."
guilt entered his soul and as in Adam all die.
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation

edit: I was working on two post at the same time accidently pressed the wrong submit repasted instantly and replaced post, because I was not finished with the other one and it did not make any sense with what I had written thus.

hi proud pappa

you asked andrew kelly weather it was taught before agustine wiki seems to indacate that this doctrine was beleieved in the second centry

The concept of original sin was first alluded to in the 2nd century by Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons in his controversy (written in Greek) with the dualist Gnostics.[2] Its scriptural foundation is based on the New Testament teaching of Paul the Apostle (Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:22). Tertullian, Cyprian, Ambrose and Ambrosiaster considered that mankind shares in Adam's sin, transmitted by human generation

i havent verfied this in the writings of the church fathers

but i dare to say is probaly correct

Hi brothagary no one is denying the fall, It is the extreme conclusions that theolgy has placed upon the fall.

wiki also says ///The Greek Fathers emphasized the cosmic dimension of the Fall, namely that since Adam human beings are born into a fallen world, but held fast to belief that man, though fallen, is free.[2] They thus did not teach that human beings are deprived of free will and involved in total depravity, which is one understanding of original sin.[10][11] During this period the doctrines of human depravity and the inherently sinful nature human flesh were taught by Gnostics, and orthodox Christian writers took great pains to counter them.[12][13] Christian Apologists insisted that God's future judgment of humanity implied humanity must have the ability to live righteously.[14][15]///

I feel that I am in agreement with this

hi pappa

im certaint you allready have your answers to thoses three questions but i assume you think that my answering thoses questions will some how chang my mind about this issue

god made men for two motavating reasons
to show his glory
and to show grace and mercy

god created adam to be able to sin , to show glory and grace and mercy through a salvic proces
he put teptation in grasp to test mans obedance

sin is not imputed is refuring to the law given such as the ten comanment ,and the noehide laws

even tho the fundamently law of god wasnt givern till moses where by our sins are imputed to our selfs were by the law killed men who were under that law and made sin to be exceding sinfull

death still rained from adam till moses because of adams sin ,even tho no else sinned in the exact same way as adam

i agree babes even tho are in the loins of adam ,are over looked or aquited ,does to the fact that they have not the capacty to repent nor understand

but in the same way they inhert the body of death
and inhertit genetic sickness and die form herdity desesies
they inherit a sinfull spirit ,, which is there at conception

sin revived and i died

this shows that sin was aways with him but when he came to understand the law sinfull passions were aroused by the law ,it made sin exeeding sinfull

sin in us will kick hard against the law of god whe we are not regenerated by the spirit whose laws are then writtern on our hearts

revived is meaning aroused

in the same way the spirit is revived in us through a revivle or baptisim of spirit

it doest mean it just apeared when he understood somthing of sin by the law

the bible just doesnt teach that

paul said the law was to show the sin that is allready there ,,,,through the law is the knowlage of sin

it is seen as a wrectherd thing ,,rather then just nomale or justafiable by the carnal mind

the law doesnt produce the sin or trigger off the sin it just shows the sin for what it is

ohh regarding your last post ,i thought you were asking about oridgnal sin ,, not the fall ,,,,wops

yea i agree i think therese pleanty of devision allready

i feel if one can explaing from scripture in love the reasons for believeing a doctrine ,we can come closer to except why we see things different

rather then make rash harh statments against one another ,through not understaing each others possisions

and the for example calvinism or ariminisim wont seems to us like a dirty word ,but varations of understanding the same princale

what you said should aply to all the conversasions and debats so to speak
i do also feel that if it explained proply there would be less people saying things like if god did this he would be evil , he would be unjust ect ,, this not good to say ,it would be better to say we agree to disagree on a doctrine rather then to mention god being unjust wrong

i did mean the first of adam but to explain what an wye

one should go back to the true oridginal sin of satan

im sure my atempt to explain this would be limited
maany would allready know how through pride satan lifterd up his heart against god ,and was jelious

one sin was enough against a god of infinute value
the mentions he left his own abode with one third of the angles ,and was ivicted from heaven for ever

they came down to reigones of the earth and remain in darkness in the air chained till the day of judment

tepmting and posesions ,an obsesing all that they can

i believe that there eviction was a comon knwolage in the heavens and on the earth

even adam and eve knew what happened to satan

the punisment didint seem to fit the crime

satan still had freedom in the air and he romed the earth two frow at will

the mercy god showed this butafull angle was evedent to eve and adam

it led them to question in there hearts gods athority an severity

the tree of knowlage allways held atractive mystery in there eyes

when satan temted eve to eat ,,the idea that god is soft he wont punish us servery ,was i believe the first false thoughts that were givern room in there mind

this led to a clouded thought process and made her and adam vunrable to satan so satan struck as a serpent strikes

this is the first big mistake that the sons of adam make ,false thinking about gods righeous judgmnt and severity

satan stole out of her the word of god and she became fruitless ,and partook of the fruit of the tree of knowlage

the lak of knowlage of god ,caused the desire of pride to rise ,and inturn the hunger for forbiden knowlage became the goal

this is what happens to the sons of adam now

this thinking is intamently conected to the children of adam

blessings

by brothagary on 2012/11/5 1:36:18

yea i agree i think therese pleanty of devision allready

i feel if one can explaing from scripture in love the reasons for believeing a doctrine ,we can come closer to except why we see things different

How 'bout explaining this that we might have a better relationship:

"What does it mean when you say we all became dead because of Adam's sin"?

Andrew wrote ///We should strive for unity of understanding as well of unity of purpose. Otherwise we will have gained nothing at all.///

brothagary wrote
///yea i agree i think therese pleanty of devision allready
i feel if one can explaing from scripture in love the reasons for believeing a doctrine ,we can come closer to except why we see things different
rather then make rash harh statments against one another ,through not understaing each others possisions
and the for example calvinism or ariminisim wont seems to us like a dirty word ,but varations of understanding the same princale///

wounderful thoughts, I am in agreement

Re: the first sin

by amrkelly on 2012/11/5 7:59:56

"nteresting thoughts Gary. May I ask where your thoughts come from? Is it a view which you have read or are these your own thoughts? I must say I have an altogether different view of time and context myself. But I do think that it just shows how difficult it is to find a simple answer to the question of why Adam disobeyed God. We know that in the end Eve was deceived and so she disobeyed at a disadvantage as it were. We know that before she disobeyed she understood that she ought not to eat that particular fruit. We also know that Adam had the same knowledge of God' will and that he was not deceived, yet he disobeyed God without a seeming reason to do so. We could take this a little further and say that we know what Satan thought about his act of rebellion because we have the very words in Isaiah. But what was in it for Adam? He wasn't deceived there was no reason for pride, he was innocent, this precludes any possibility of pride, and yet he still thought to disobey.

Can we not see that for the reasons of Adam's failure, Jesus is now so highly exalted by His Father?

by amrkelly on 2012/11/5 8:36:31

Can we not see that for the reasons of Adam's failure, Jesus is now so highly exalted by His Father? croref.

Absolutely we can see it and its the most wonderful reality in the whole universe because Jesus is exalted through obedience.

. . .

The most important reason for looking into these things seems to me to be because we are Christ' inheritance. We are intended to become His bride in whom He takes Joy. We are to be the honour of His Name. Right now we are somewhat less than vestal and pure. How will we make ourselves ready if we don't understand why despite the fact that we have a new life, we still sin?

If we will accept the fact that our new birth, though of God, is not a prevention but the very life of the "Word" Jesus experienced, we will have set before us, by revelation, what keeps us as that which kept Him, i.e., the "indwelling love" for the Father and ALL His Father purposed for having created man. By that same Love, Jesus had a VISION and JOY set before Him. Do we? Would that not be the mark of the new born of Him; the mark of them that love Him?

by amrkelly on 2012/11/5 10:12:12

If we will accept the fact that our new birth, though of God, is not a prevention but the very life of the "Word" Jesus experienced, we will have set before us, by revelation, what keeps us as that which kept Him, i.e., the "indwelling love" for the Father and ALL His Father purposed for having created man. By that same Love, Jesus had a VISION and JOY set before Him. Do we? Would that not be the mark of the new born of Him; the mark of them that love Him? croref

Prevention is a bit late once the condition is fully set in. Overcoming is a better word and not just sin, but sin, the flesh and the devil.

That which kept Christ was Christ Himself through obedience. If we desire to know something we must judge ourselves and have a proper estimation of ourselves. Jesus was obedient unto death. Jesus didn't experience the Word, He is The Word made flesh. Even as a 12 year old boy Jesus understood this. His sole attitude was one of obedience and an interest in His Father's house.

Do we have a vision and joy set before us? Ill say so! If we didn't have such a hope how would we run?

The mark of those that love Jesus is obedience.

Dear amr, Why are you doing this? Is what I wrote not truth? You seem to think so by, in some way, picking fly dirt out of pepper only to have me wondering what your agenda really is.

by amrkelly on 2012/11/5 11:29:49

Dear amr, why are you doing this? Is what I wrote not truth? You seem to think so by, in some way, picking fly dirt out of pepper only to have me wondering what your agenda really is. Croref

It is just a difference of emphasis brother in the end of it and no agenda either. But I do understand your asking. As long as we judge ourselves we will not be judged. You emphasized love I emphasized obedience. Both are true 1 John 3:1-24.

Had I not objected, do you believe anyone would have figured that out?

by amrkelly on 2012/11/5 12:05:33

Had I not objected, do you believe anyone would have figured that out? Croref

I don’t know brother. I suppose that would depend on how well the reader knew the Scripture. As I said I understand why you asked the question. It is possible to state the truth and at the same time make a provocation. Some will see the provocation and miss the truth. Others will see the provocation but take pleasure in the truth. Others do not see the provocation at all. “Love believes all things”. Forgive me if it seemed to you to be unlovely.

Love doesn't provoke to confuse but for understanding.

hi, it is my weird belief that adams sin was so severe because he not only ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil; but rejected the tree of life(Jesus).jimp we have the same problem today.

hi, of course i was talking about before the fall. all the trees were available except one. my sermon on this preaches real good.loljimp
choose religion or choose Jesus...

Hi Jimp

your inclusion of "we have the same problem today." made it all make perfect sence to me, It actually may be one of the deepest insights That I have read on these forums,

The more I meditate on what you wrote the more insightful I realize it is!

RE:///Before the fall Adam was innocent not stupid or ignorant///

was he controled by a voice of reason "the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences."??

hi, if you eat of this tree you will be as God.(religion) he ate after his wife ate.so stupid that it put the whole human race under bondage. the ground was cursed and produced thorns.Jesus took that curse when He bled from the crown of thorns on the cross etc.jimp we who believe now have eternal life because of Jesus and his finished work.

hi croft,,,,, in adam all died ,,when adam sin seperated him god ,( he who comits sin is a slave to sin ,,,,, he was sperated from the spiritual life of god and became spirtual dead in sin and recieved the death penatily in the flesh ,,,as we do becase we were in him in his loins

in contrased ,,,us now being in the seconed adam and reciveing resarection life and the gift of righeoeness

in christ all will be made alive

blessings

brother andrew most of that s my thoughts ,,wile i was typing certaint things actualy came to me

i asked questions in my mind a few years ago,,and felt that satans fall was well known to adam and all the angels

and it was seen by them as a weak punishemnt from god

but just yesataday i relised that the false thoughts conjered up in there minds about god not being a harsh punisher ,,was the begining of the sin ,,and the reason that this pure creation adam and eve was able to be led in to pride ,and want the forbiden knowlage

and i think this is a major problem with men today ,,there fasle ideas about gods righeous judgments and serverity ,cause them to twist god in there minds change the atributes of god ,,this gives birth to the sin of idolarty

just prior to the fall due to a false view of god which was compouned by not repenting of false thought about ,,this happend to adam and eve ,and alowed them to be tempted an led astray by the devil ,,who would have previosly had know power to effect them

now that just how im seeing it .i dont expect others to see it that way

can i say tho that wile i was typing this post ,i only just relised that the propblem led to idolarty

strange i didnt know this 1 hour ago

when we worship god with a false view of gods atrabutes we a worshiping a god we are recreating in our own imgaination

this happened in the begginning and is happening right now as a reflection or shadow of what went on in the garden

and it leds to fogy perception and spiritual deception ,and a sickening hunger for forbiden knowlage of all variations

andrews thanks for asking the questions yestaday andrew

i feel the holy spirt has givern me a litle clarity ,or an expilnation

iv allways wonder how adam and eve could be led into evil
wile they did not have a flesh nature for satan to tempt them through

blessings everyone in jesus mighty name

by amrkelly on 2012/11/5 20:25:37

hi, it is my weird belief that adams sin was so severe because he not only ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil; but rejected the tree of life(Jesus).jimp we have the same problem today. Jimp

If The Tree of Life was the same in meaning as God’s own eternal life (as most believe that it was) then Adam certainly had an opportunity to possess the same life as God possesses. However given that Adam was innocent for most of the time he had access to The Tree of Life it seems unlikely that his not eating of that fruit was an act of rejection.

Re:jimp

hi, it is my weird belief that adams sin was so severe because he not only ate of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil; but rejected the tree of life(Jesus).jimp we have the same problem today.

Why take it that far?? How 'bout it was just simple 'neglect'?? Did Adam have a "pressing need" that he should be drawn to it??

Question: Why does one come to Christ??

was Adam controled by a voice of reason "the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences."??

by brothagary on 2012/11/6 0:37:36

hi croft,,,,, in adam all died ,,when adam sin seperated him god ,( he who comits sin is a slave to sin ,,,,, he was sperated from the spiritual life of god and became spirtual dead in sin and recieved the death penatily in the flesh ,,,as we do becase we were in him in his loins

in contrased ,,,us now being in the seconed adam and reciveing resarection life and the gift of righeoeness

in christ all will be made alive

Good. So we can rightly say that death meant being separated from God, correct?

by proudpapa on 2012/11/6 5:14:26

was Adam controled by a voice of reason "the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences."??

Who are you addressing??

hi, i picture the tree of life as a somewhat ugly tree with somewhat non descript lookin fruit so it was not something that sparked desire to try .somewhat like the bible prophecies about what Jesus would look like when He would come.jimp where the tree of the knowlege if good and evil was very desirous.

by amrkelly on 2012/11/6 9:22:00

Why take it that far?? How 'bout it was just simple 'neglect'?? Did Adam have a "pressing need" that he should be drawn to it??

Question: Why does one come to Christ?? croref

The Father draws one to Christ. As Jesus said no one could believe in Him unless The Father draws him. The Father also drew Adam’ attention to the tree of life both indirectly by providing or else creating “all” the trees physically in one garden as well as by placing the two trees at the heart of the garden together. Not only this but the Scriptures have many examples of God’ expectation that His invisible attributes make for a possibility in understanding His will with regards to those physical things. Marriage for example of a man to one woman is a physical restraint and meaning which is said to be a “natural” affection. Therefore, to do the opposite amounts to exchanging a natural affection for an unnatural one in contradiction of ones own understanding as well as God' intention. The Tree of Life may well as Jim says have been the less attractive of the two trees we know the names of. Yet even if this were true it would in that not amount to ignorance, but would simply be a thing to seek out, even as Christ is one to seek out.

Adam was innocent. No drawing by God would ever have been an issue; never a necessity to be drawn to the Tree of Life anymore so then any other tree.

by amrkelly on 2012/11/6 12:38:08

Adam was innocent. No drawing by God would ever have been an issue; never a necessity to be drawn to the Tree of Life anymore so then any other tree. croref

The very fact that God tells Adam that he could eat of any tree in the garden was an act of drawing attention to something in this case a number of tree’s bearing a variety of fruits. As I said brother “God drew Adam’ ATTENTION to the Tree of Life etc.” You being a teacher formerly I thought you would have known how to pay attention. 2 out of 3 for that one! You understand brother.

Easy Bro. Given Adam believed he needed nothing, give a reason why Adam should be "drawn" to anything __without a need to satisfy what he might have believed he did not already possess?

hi, it does not realy matter. it does paint a great picture that has been true throughout the history of mankind. but,unless you have THE SECOND ADAM it just does not matter. Jesus is the only thing that i know and Him crucified. jimp

////was Adam controled by a voice of reason "the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences."??

Who are you addressing??////

anyone

Hi amrkelly

amrkelly wrote
///When I first read this brother in the first posting of it, a vague thought crossed my mind. Now that this thread has moved on a little in seeking to answer the OP question I believe that you have said this very well. When Paul said “he who loves his wife loves himself” I believe he wasn’t making a negative statement which by inference would mean, don’t love your wife too much etc. I think he was making a statement based in reality. When Adam first laid eyes on his wife to be, his immediate understanding was real, this is “woman” “flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone”. Clearly his mental powers were acute and functioning very well indeed. He wasn’t informed of this fact; he was simply equipped to know it. This tells me two things. That when Paul said “know you not that when a man loves his wife he loves himself” he was saying nothing more than Adam himself understood the first time he set eyes on his wife. It also tells me that not only was he not capable of being deceived by the serpent but he had all the abilities to know realities. He named all the animals; that is quiet a feat of intellect because this too denotes an ability to understand the nature of every animal. This is the meaning of having authority to name something. Parents name their own children having an understanding of something that took place in their privacy; namely “this is our child” Parents don’t name other peoples children.

In short brother when Adam saw Eve stretch out her hand he was quiet capable of doing something about it. Whatever thoughts crossed his mind, in the end he proffered to go with the emotional and intellectual comfort of agreeing with his wife. This is self before God and this is the first sin of man and this is the basis of the fall. It is a form of Idolatry, putting self before God. It is called disobedience but it is obedience to self interest before obedience to God’ will; in this case experienced internally by a compulsion of that which he could see and hear outwardly, namely that he loved and adored his wife who was of himself.

The words of God to Adam in dealing with the problem of this sin were "because you have listened to the voice of your wife" Genesis 3:17. The action of eating a piece of fruit is no great thing. But for Adam listening to the voice of Eve his wife whom he loved as himself, in the end becomes rebellion in his progeny.///

that was some good thoughts Brother Andrew,

Here are some verses That come to mind

"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

1 Peter 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls

by proudpapa on 2012/11/6 18:44:58

////was Adam controled by a voice of reason "the mental powers concerned with forming conclusions, judgments, or inferences."??Who are you addressing??////
anyone
No. He was subjected to vanity and failed the test.

hi, could it be so simple as adam did not see any change in eve after she ate of the tree and thought it must be safe to eat of?

I repeat__Adam was unwillingly subjected to vanity__with the hope he would not succumb.

by amrkelly on 2012/11/7 11:03:19

I repeat__Adam was unwillingly subjected to vanity__with the hope he would not succumb. Croref

Is the unwillingness on Adams part? And is the hope on God’ part? Given that you are insistent I thought it would be worth asking!

God did the subjecting as the only means for Adam to prove himself, his allegiance to Him, by a choice given Adam. God did it with a hope that Adam would come through and if that was not the case then God gave him something he could not perform. God obviously planned for his failure.

cf Romans 8:20

hi, one of my favorite books i have read ispart of a trilogy by c.s. lewis.the book is titled perelandra and it is about men flying to a planet where the the two humans have not disobeyed God. it brings out the sinful nature of men from earth except for the Jesus type character(ransom).great alagory.jimp

I'm a bit late to this conversation, but wanted to touch on Romans 8:20 a bit contextually.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (Romans 8:19-22)

Verse 19 points to a future time when the sons of God will be manifest to the creation (creature). After the fall God had placed the earth in a state of inutility. Our word here for vanity is ματαιότης mataiotes. It comes from a word meaning devoid of force or vain; that is to say, fruitless and without results.

If we interpret V.20 as the Creation being in a state of 'inutility' and couple that with the 'curse' that caused the earth not to produce as it did prior to the fall then I am left to think that the whole creation is sort of limping along. I think this was done as a preventative measure to insure that Adam would have to work by the sweat of his face instead of walking around picking fruit. In short, God put the earth in a state in which man had a lot less time for leisure because the earth did not work as well as it did at first.

Some creation scientists tell of a time when the whole earth was in a state of symphonic equilibrium. Everything was working like a perfectly tuned machine or a well oiled watch. The is the earth in a state of complete utility (if you will). Everything functioned exactly as designed. Everything worked together in perfect harmony with just the right balances and processes. But today, we are in a state of 'inutility'. We have seasons of summer and winter and have to work hard to get our necessary food.

In the auto industry cars have computers that monitor and adjust the functions of the engines to insure that everything is perfectly tuned at all times. I'm not 100% sure if it's true today, but back in the 80's and 90's when something went catastrophically wrong with an engine feedback system the computer went into what we called 'limp in mode'. This was a default setting that goes into play when certain sensors cannot be trusted and the vehicle needs to be able to merely make it into the shop. The car is drivable, but the performance is far less than if things were in a 'closed loop operation.' A closed loop system takes into account sensor readings (especially oxygen content in the exaust) to keep the air-ful mixture, ignition timing, etc. all in perfect balance. This is happening many hundreds of times per second almost like a 'refresh rate'. You don't even notice its happening when all is well; but in 'limp in' mode things don't run right.

This is how I see the issue of 'inutility' or 'vanity'. We are subject to the bondage (slavery) of corruption. This is a word that is similar to death or dying. There is a winding down that is happening in both the creation and in our mortal bodies. again, I think this was a measure employed by God to reduce the effectiveness of the earth so as to make life more difficult. An idle mind is the devils workshop. God got man busy by placing the earth in inutility. Just my view of it. Blessings.

hi, wonderful post,robert.jimp

by RobertW on 2012/11/7 13:24:50

This is how I see the issue of 'inutility' or 'vanity'. We are subject to the bondage (slavery) of corruption. This is a word that is similar to death or dying. There is a winding down that is happening in both the creation and in our mortal bodies. again, I think this was a measure employed by God to reduce the effectiveness of the earth so as to make life more difficult. An idle mind is the devils workshop. God got man busy by placing the earth in inutility. Just my view of it. Blessings.

For sure, that is the traditional thinking of it all __that doesn't fit the situation. I'll stick with my understanding because it does fit that the rest of the 'dots' can be connected.

i watched roberts viedo of the beating of the drums was a well presented gosple message and it was good to put a face to the name thanks for posting the link

i think creation was subject to courption for one ,,it was an inhertence for the sons of men,,so it needed to be either taken away from man ,or changed to suit the circumstances

blessings