Saints/Moderators,
Help me understand something: why is there an apprehension to call a spade a spade when it comes to Roman Catholicisim? I have noticed something that GREATLY concerns me about brethren thinking they are doing God a service of love and humility by not clearly warning the church of Catholicism and calling it what it is - a heretical, devilish, deceptive, twisting of the Word of God that has/deceive millions upon billions throughout history and today.
There was a thread opened on IHOP warning of their focus on Roman Catholic Mystics' Teachings and it was locked with statements about the brethren discussing these matters like they were purely being divisive. I understand that we are not to be "harsh/hasty in our judgements" and aren't to spend all of our time being "sin-sniffers" or "heresy-hunters", but brethren, you don't have to be "looking for something that may/may not be there" when it comes to the Roamn Catholic Church.
Remember, this is the heretical apostate cult which burned men like William Tyndale at the stake for trying to give the people the ability to have the Eord of God for themselves. This is the false religion which killed millions of Muslims "in the name of Christ" during the Crusades. This is a TOTALLY false religion which worships Mary, prays to the dead, worships dead saints, bows before idols, etc., etc., etc.
Please tell me the moderators of this site are IN NO WAY, willing to defend/protect Roman Catholicism to any degree. I don't understand what is going on in these cases. In fact, there is a very well known teacher/preacher who's stuff is on this site who even did likewise in conversation with me, who made the statement, "What do you do then with Mr.Theresa? She was full of the love of Christ." WAIT A MINUTE! C'mon saints, how do sincere brethren and ministers who understand the Apostacy, the Word of God, Sanctification, etc., etc. fall prey to this level of deception? By the mother of all harlots no less, Roman Catholicism? You see, Mr. Theresa made SEVERAL quotes wher she said she "came to teach a Christian to be a better Christian, A MUSLIM TO BE A BETTER MUSLIM, A HINDU TO BE A BETTER HINDU", etc. She made MANY otherbsuch statements throughout her life and "ministry". How do we not immediately recognize the spirit of the Anti-Christ for what it is and cry out like Paul, ANANTHEMA!!!?
I frankly need clarification from the moderators, in love. If this site is going to shy away from pointing out error among the brethren when it comes to drinking from the cup of devils in mixing fellowship/doctrine with the Roman Catholic Church, lock out threads that exposé the topic, and think that somehow this is an "act of meekness" or love, I need to know this plainly and clearly at this point. If that is the case, I will be greatly grieved and saddened. I'm not talking about attacking anyone/everyone who disagrees with me on some doctrinal issue, but Roman Catholicism is just like Islam, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. It's an anti-Christ cult to the core. Only it's much larger, much more deceptive, and has spilled more of the saints blood down through the ages than all the others combined. Please clarify this for me and explain why the previous thread was locked. Many are deceived by Catholicism's mixture and doctrines of devils, why should we not even "jump the fence" to protect the sheep from such wolves and those who toy with their doctrines? I'm not being hasty or harsh (obviously, you don't know me REALLY in real life apart from forums), but this willingness among the church to tolerate this wicked cult lately burns in my spirit with a holy fire. If that bothers the moderators, I will pray about my withdrawing permanently from this site. Please tell me I am wrong and misunderstand in some way....
In Him,
Jeff Marshall
Afraid to call Roman Catholicism Heresy? (moderators please read/respond)
I am just adding this link to Chuck Smith's view on the Catholic Church in his sermon on Revelation 2-3. He says the Message to Thyatira in Revelation (rev 2:18-29) is also a message to the Catholic Church.
direct link:
http://ne.edgecastcdn.net/0007BA/c2000/c2315.mp3
or
the word for today c2000 page
http://twft.com/?page=c2000
edit: Thyatira starts at 32:25
I'm not going to listen to Chuck Smith's message right now (time) or anyone else's, but I will take the time soon to quote a multitude of scriptures directly from God's Word which show the Roman Catholic Church for what it is. No church at all, but a "synagogue of Satan". You see, they have MURDERED the saints down through the ages, primarily because they wanted their own Bible and to follow the Word of God and not the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. What else needs to even be said about what spirit that is? I will outline all the scriptures when Imhet a chance that clearly are in DIRECT opposition to official catholic doctrines.
You're not wrong. There is no salvation in the RCC. Those in it need Jesus just as badly as those involved in any other cult. The "Jesus" that the Roman Catholic loves, is not the real Jesus from the Bible, but a repackaging of Tammuz (Madonna and child)and other pagan cult deities they've absorbed over the centuries. It's a false gospel that needs to be addressed as such, in love. Just like the JW's, Mormons, Muslims, etc. etc. They all claim it's the same "God", but this is most certainly not the case.
My best friend in Japan is a former Roman Catholic, and he would be the first to agree with what you're saying.
i agree with every word you wrote.
the leadership of the roman instition is wholly evil, its the DEAR SAINTS who love Jesus trapped within this dark instituion my heart grieves for.
Great post Jeffmar. I entirely, 1000% agree with you.
Hey Jeffmar-
You asked
Help me understand something: why is there an apprehension to call a spade a spade when it comes to Roman Catholicisim?
A few things that you might consider with your question-
1. This is a horse that has been beaten to death again, and again, and again, and again. Do some searching of past posts. No need to rehash what has been hashed over dozens and dozens and dozens of times on the forums already. BrotherTom posts about it a lot. I do not always agree with all his conclusions... but regardless.. no one can say that the topic is one that hasn't been explored in depth again and again and again and again.
2. You may not have had the chance to read the statement of purpose for Sermon Index. From the "About Us" page.
'The mission of SermonIndex is the preservation and propagation of classical Biblical preaching and the promotion of Christ-centered revival to this generation.'
As you can see....heresy hunting is not a primary purpose for the site. The moderators have been specific and consistent in the application of this. It simply does not fulfill the purpose for which Greg believes God has led him to raise up this site.
There are hundreds of sites out there dedicated to apologetics, heresy hunting, etc. The moderators have consistently stated that the purpose of SI is different from that. They are not necessarily in disagreement with the other sites/ministries who have that as a primary mission. It just is a different calling and application than the specific one SI is called to.
If SI begins to major on areas that are outside of their God given mandate then they will begin to suffer in fulfilling their actual mandate of preserving and propagating classic Biblical preaching, and the promotion of Christ centered revival. So... while they have allowed a vast amount of the Catholic attacks to be discussed in the forums it is clearly not the primary intent or purpose of the SI site.
So you see... there is no soft peddling going on here. It has just been done to death over and over and over. Even that has been something that was "allowed" much more than "desired" as it at times has become a real distraction to the actual God given mandate for SI.
Hope that helps bro.
I do not mean to speak for the moderators. However, I have seen them respond in this way and heart multiple times. As a ministry leader I am always thrilled to have someone else from the group express the same heart and ideas that I hold to. I hope the moderators find that same happiness from we SI members when we can accurately address thoughts expressed here with the same heart and maturity they have exhibited.
Blessings!
By the way...I minister in an area that as of the most recent demographics have 65% of the people claiming to be "practicing Catholics". I understand the thoughts you express....I see them strongly in the community I live in almost daily. I lead one of only two "evangelical" fellowships within our regional community. However, SI is a different site with a different purpose.
Solomon101 wrote:
I do not mean to speak for the moderators. However, I have seen them respond in this way and heart multiple times. As a ministry leader I am always thrilled to have someone else from the group express the same heart and ideas that I hold to. I hope the moderators find that same happiness from we SI members when we can accurately address thoughts expressed here with the same heart and maturity they have exhibited.
I think that Solomon101 has rightly captured our views of the subject. I would heartily recommend reading the entirety of what he has written a couple of times. He is spot on.
I don't think any of us will disagree with you on your stance against the church of Rome. It is certainly an apostate religious structure. But we choose to not fixate on Rome here, or the church of LDS, or the Watchtower, or any other false structure. Our object of desire on SermonIndex is focused on Jesus Christ, and Him alone.
There is a tendency to become over-zealous in our quest to stomp out anything we feel doesn't measure up to true evangelical Christianity. There is definitely a place in ministry to rebuke, correct, reprove, but these forums are not the place to indulge in such. Moderators are here to make sure we don't go too far to the left or right, but stay focused in Christ. When we feel something is going out of kilter we try to step in and regain balance.
The accusations against the RCC may be legit, but the spirit we do it in often is not. There is a very fine line. The folks that rejected Christ certainly deserved fire to come down from heaven and destroy them, but Jesus said "No." The disciples who indicted the villages were instead rebuked by the Lord.
My advice is, on SI, leave the apostate religious structures alone. Concentrate all your energy instead on exalting Jesus and bringing others to see His glorious light. By doing this you will do more damage to Satan's kingdoms of darkness than you can ever imagine. Light banishes darkness with instantaeous effect. Penning "exposure" articles about the RCC is like killing the Egyptians, one by one, but exalting Jesus Christ opens the entire sea and drowns the multitude. Seek to project Christ and His light will expose all corruption.
Brother Paul
I understand some of what you are saying, and agree with the intent of some, but disagree with much of what/how you are implementing.
All of our focus is to be on Christ. That's a given. That doesn't somehow negate the call to "expose the deeds of darkness", "give no place to false teachers", etc. Christ's Exaltation is paramount to our walk. That still doesn't promote/make right a "head in the sand" "fingers in my ears" approach to exposing false teaching. In love brethren, that's in part how the current state of the American Apostate Babylonian church got where it is in the first place. Besides, we are to preach "THE FULL COUNSEL" of scripture, not JUST focus on parts we choose and reject others
It doesn't matter what I think, or you think, etc., but what does God's Word/Spirit say about such matters. MANY are falling prey to RCC from the "ranks of Christian churches" & to be silent, silence those who speak up, clarify, expose, teach/preach on the subject, etc. is to work against the work of God, the Word of God, & the "under-shepherding" of the people. Shepherds are ready to fight off wolves, seek out lost sheep, pick off parasites, etc. ALL of what comes with protection of a flock.
True, many are over-zealous, will be in the wrong spirit at times/degrees, etc., but that shouldn't silence the Word of God, cause us to throw out the baby with the bath-water, & leave "little ones" (young, still lost, immature, Or ignorant) to fend for themselves and give credence to the RCC by refusing to talk about it.
I frankly don't care how many times some feel this "dead horse has been beaten", RCC influence is actually GROWING, ignorance on its dangers among sheep/shepherds is growing, and new people visit SI EVERYDAY!
As far as the "purpose of SI", let me address that briefly. In our fellowship, there is also driving purpose, given by God, a certain message the Holy Spirit is working in/through us at given times, etc., but if someone stands up and supports blatant heresy, is confused in such matters, etc., we will not worry about "what our focus" (overall) is/isn't. We will address that quickly & thoroughly lest someone believe a lie and our silence propagate and further such ignorance. Paul didn't do that. I'm no Paul, but he said himself, "Imitate me as a I imitate Christ".
Besides, my "job" is to sell janitorial/custodial supplies. Nowhere in my application, list of job duties, etc. did it say my "focus/job" was to preach the Gospel, evangelize, protect sheep from wolves, etc. But that's really immaterial, because God's Word tells me to, so "let God be true and every man a liar."
I know several ex-RCC decieved who got truly born again. They mighta got saved in that place, but once they got filled with God's Spirit, they couldn't stay there. They were no longer "trapped" cause the Spirit of God and Word of God set them free. I likewise know people saved in spite of sitting under Word of Faith false doctrines of false teachers (bound for hell themselves), but they didn't stay there, make peace with a lie, or just say, "well, we've already beaten that dead horse".
Again, the point is that there is an outright AVOIDANCE of calling the RCC a satanic lie. How can people trapped get free if no one speaks the truth in love? If we avoid the subject (locking a thread and giving the "that's not the purpose of SI" appears to me to be avoiding the subject and trying
To silence a truth many need to hear).
"The purpose of SI is....", so we can post news articles on Texas succeeding from the union, the election, Hurricane Sandy, etc. (none of which I am demonizing, I read them all), but the subject of involvement with the RCC becomes a dead locked thread because it's not SI's "purpose"? Brethren, in love, I ask that you do what your own rules state which is read this, pray, & carefully consider before you post. Before "defense" kicks in an answer, I ask you, implore you, plead with you to prayerfully consider what's being stated in these actions. If we can't expose/warn people of the greatest deception in Christ's name in history, who has martyred more saints than all others, what are we saying?
I'm not attacking anyone. I'm begging you: think, search the scriptures, & pray before defending this stance. Focusing on Christ is right. Meanwhile ignoring countless other biblical mandates is against God's Spirit and His clearly expressed Word.
by PaulWest on 2012/11/13 4:39:46
I don't think any of us will disagree with you on your stance against the church of Rome. It is certainly an apostate religious structure. But we choose to not fixate on Rome here, or the church of LDS, or the Watchtower, or any other false structure. Our object of desire on SermonIndex is focused on Jesus Christ, and Him alone.
There is a tendency to become over-zealous in our quest to stomp out anything we feel doesn't measure up to true evangelical Christianity. There is definitely a place in ministry to rebuke, correct, reprove, but these forums are not the place to indulge in such. Moderators are here to make sure we don't go too far to the left or right, but stay focused in Christ. When we feel something is going out of kilter we try to step in and regain balance.
The accusations against the RCC may be legit, but the spirit we do it in often is not. There is a very fine line. The folks that rejected Christ certainly deserved fire to come down from heaven and destroy them, but Jesus said "No." The disciples who indicted the villages were instead rebuked by the Lord.
My advice is, on SI, leave the apostate religious structures alone. Concentrate all your energy instead on exalting Jesus and bringing others to see His glorious light. By doing this you will do more damage to Satan's kingdoms of darkness than you can ever imagine. Light banishes darkness with instantaeous effect. Penning "exposure" articles about the RCC is like killing the Egyptians, one by one, but exalting Jesus Christ opens the entire sea and drowns the multitude. Seek to project Christ and His light will expose all corruption.
Brother Paul
_______________
Wanted to say thank you for this post. It has taken me a long time to realize that coming against a false religion like the RCC does little to draw other to CHRIST. Of course I believe we must stand on truth and not back away from sharing that truth but with my own mother I have learned that sharing JESUS with her, just talking with her, and pointing her focus to CHRIST alone does so much more then always attacking the RCC. It is important to remember that while the RCC is a lost pagan religion those who are inside this church are just as lost as we all once were and in need of our prayers.
Thank you again
God Bless
maryjane
Also, I fail to see scriptural support which says "Expose the deeds of darkness" or to not give place to false teaching/teachers ("don't let them in your house or you give place for them sharing in their wickedness") one or two times, but after that to refuse to address it.
How many times are we to forgive? 7x70 (infinitely as needed). How many times are we to preach, rebuke, warn, correct, encourage, exhort, etc? Just as many as its needed. And now more than ever it seems to be needed. Repeated instances of "evangelical church leaders/ministers/members/teachers" converting to Catholicism like I've not seen since my conversion? Ignore this, minimize it, or state it as unimportantly not part of our main purpose is to neglect the under-shepardong work God has given. It's like letting your small children "play in traffic" & saying its because we've already told them before, we don't want conflict, or our main purpose as parents is to just encourage them and point them to Christ. Meanwhile they suffer danger and can die at our avoidance of dealing with it. Grave error
Friend, what we've layed out are the forum guidelines and we respectfully ask you and everyone else using this forum to abide by them. We do not ask this to lord it over you. This forum is simply not the place for exposure ministries. There are already 10,000 RCC threads delineating the evil history and unscriptural practices of that system. If we allow one thread to continue, others will soon spring up and the forum will be full of rebuking and judgment and watchdogging. We do not want this to happen.
If you are bent on exposing the RCC, consider starting a blog for that purpose. But please do not use SI as a platform to expose or condemn. This is Greg's wishes and we agree and support him.
Thank you for your consideration.
Brother Paul
MaryJane,
I'm not talking about SPENDING ALL MY TIME ATTACKING RCC (or any/all Other errors). I'm talking about avoiding the subjects and quashing them when they come up. Go back and Reread my posts. We can all go by what "we feel", but there are MANY scriptures (NT no less) that implore us to expose false doctrine/teaching/heresy. This isn't some Calvinism/Armenianism issue which believers may disagree on either. This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ or Another Gospel/Another Jesus. If we can't allow for that discussion, what are we doing here exactly?
Brother,
Lord bless you and your heart. I'm not bent on exposing. Apparently now SI is bent on avoiding exposure according to the scriptures. Thus why I asked you to pray before responding to what I'm saying in haste. It's Greg's website and you are all supporting this blanket policy without taking time to pray about it, & bringing error to light is no longer allowed freely apparently. After this thread's discussion is complete, I will need to pray about being involved here ever again. I say that with a broken heart, not a hasty one. I will list all the scriptures SI is choosing to intentionally ignore/disobey in order to keep this policy intact. I want to weep because I know you brothers know God's Word........
by jeffmar on 2012/11/13 5:36:04
Also, I fail to see scriptural support which says "Expose the deeds of darkness" or to not give place to false teaching/teachers ("don't let them in your house or you give place for them sharing in their wickedness") one or two times, but after that to refuse to address it.
How many times are we to forgive? 7x70 (infinitely as needed). How many times are we to preach, rebuke, warn, correct, encourage, exhort, etc? Just as many as its needed. And now more than ever it seems to be needed. Repeated instances of "evangelical church leaders/ministers/members/teachers" converting to Catholicism like I've not seen since my conversion? Ignore this, minimize it, or state it as unimportantly not part of our main purpose is to neglect the under-shepardong work God has given. It's like letting your small children "play in traffic" & saying its because we've already told them before, we don't want conflict, or our main purpose as parents is to just encourage them and point them to Christ. Meanwhile they suffer danger and can die at our avoidance of dealing with it. Grave error
__________
Greetings Jeff
Here is one of the problems I see happening though. Yes we do not want to sugar coat the subject at all or pretend that the RCC is a christian church but if my mother were to come to this site and see nothing but thread after thread attacking the RCC she would leave and never look back. Yes we have to share truth but it must be done in love and sadly many times that is not the case. I want my mom to come here and be exposed to truth but if all she feels is stones hitting her as soon as the page loads then what does that do to draw her to CHRIST?? I understand what you are saying about needing to speak truth about the RCC but how it is done and by whom can make a huge difference. I don't have the answer to this issue but I do think the moderators are trying to balance this topic in CHRIST so as not to water down the truth but at the same time not chase away seeking RC who might be looking for answers....
Just my thoughts
God bless
mj
Brother,
Lord bless you and your heart. I'm not bent on exposing. Apparently now SI is bent on avoiding exposure according to the scriptures. Thus why I asked you to pray before responding to what I'm saying in haste. It's Greg's website and you are all supporting this blanket policy without taking time to pray about it, & bringing error to light is no longer allowed freely apparently. After this thread's discussion is complete, I will need to pray about being involved here ever again. I say that with a broken heart, not a hasty one. I will list all the scriptures SI is choosing to intentionally ignore/disobey in order to keep this policy intact. I want to weep because I know you brothers know God's Word........
Dear brother, these forums are replete with discussions about this subject and many others like it. YOu will probably find all of our names participating at some level or another. So there is no avoidance on our part. Doing a search on google would prove this fact. Sermonindex always ranks high in web searches, so the information is available.
All we are saying is that it is simply not the focus of this site to herald the information. It doesn't have to be continually on the front page in order to prove how we come down on these great issues. There are other sites that do this and do it effectively. We are here to promote the knowledge of historic revival. That is our niche. We welcome conversations related to these lines and we want folks to participate in the forums with this focus in mind. Blessings.
Brother, we are not blanket supporting a policy, but this is something we've all prayed about and unanimously agree upon. Politics is another issue we've come to agree upon. There is a very good reason we confront these issues and bring them before the Lord for guidance. It is presumptuous on your part to say we mindlessly support Greg's agendas. Corporate prayer goes into these decisions.
As it has been stated many people believe that the Church of Thyatira in Revelations is the RCC system. I am one of those people. I also believe that The Mother of Harlots in Revelations is also one and the same as the RCC system. It follows that in this understanding, which has been written about extensively throughout the last 150 years since the connection was drawn, it becomes necessary to come to a balanced view of how to speak about and minister to Roman Catholics to see if any particular individual we may happen to know is in fact a true believer. Whether we like it or not every thread of the gospel of grace is present in the RCC catechism to be discovered and believed in. This is despite the fact that every kind of lie and blasphemy can also be found. A simple and open-minded reading of the two passages of Scripture referred to above should cause anyone with a desire to see Roman Catholics saves, to comprehend that they are saved in the same way we are all saved. By believing in Christ death and resurrection. Whatever men [or Satan] have added to this does not detract from the substance of hope that countless millions hold onto because of this centrality of truth.
This is not the day of Henry VIII or Martin Luther this is the day of today. I have personally no illusions as to the realities of Roman Catholic Church history or the offensiveness of idolatry or blasphemous masses and holy relics, or any of the other things that make Rome what it is. Yet having prayed and fasted for the RCC men and women I have for many years been convicted that God has more concern for them than we have and He has His answer for this system as well. If the Bishop of Rome asked me to give him a bed and sustenance I would not hesitate. Neither would I deny him the title of bishop. This is because if I did anything other than this I would have caused the Name of Christ to become a lie. I realize that things are not perceived as simple as this and that there is wickedness at the heart of the RCC system, but it is a wickedness that Christ Himself is fully aware of and He is raising up men and women to minister into that place for His own Names sake. In that I have every confidence and assurance. Let it be according to your will oh Lord and for your names sake. Amen.
I understand what you're saying, but disagree with "seeker sensitive" "felt-needs" evangelism. Not because I'm unloving, but because Jesus did. Was it unloving of Christ to touch on the idols of the Rich Young Ruler's heart and that he should walk away? Jesus wept over it in compassion, but still didnt skirt the issue and avoid the idolatry in his heart.
Besides that, even worse would be your mother coming to SI, see these issues avoided and ignored, & get the idea that her RCC was Ok, like just another denominational choice within the IC (like MANY now believe wrongly) & be deceived and go to hell. And then, one day, at the Great White Throne Judgement, scream, cry, weep, & wail and ask "WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THE TRUTH THAT COULDA SET ME FREE?!!!"
God is Soveriegn over salvation. You/I are not. Therefore our job under scripture is to be loving & compassionate, but faithful. Evangelism should start with a desire to do the Will of the Father FIRST. Then our compassion for people is clean. Otherwise, our emotions for people are stronger than our desire to serve/please the Father (like Jesus). Felt-needs evangelism and seeker sensitive mentality has the Gospel/evangelism upside down. Jesus came to save us cause He had his heart set on doing the will of the Father First and Foremost. Did he love and have compassion for us? Yes! But his FIRST AND DRIVING MOTIVATION WAS TO PLEASE HIS FATHER & DO HIS WILL FAITHFULLY! God is Soveriegn in salvation, not man, his methods, his emotions, his fears of how God's truth comes across, etc.
Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding.
Paul,
So you know, I never used the word, nor verbiage, you stated "mindlessly" supporting Greg's policies. I did not, nor would the Spirit of the Lord allow me to, say those words, nor have that heart/intention. Go back and Reread my post.
Robert,
I understand you may have discussed it in the past, but the fact is that now, for whatever reason, it's not only "not the focus" of the site (nor should it be), but it's discouraged, minimized, covered over, & THREAD LOCKED. I'm going on the recent experience I've seen only, not presumption or history.
Armkelly,
To call a RCC "Bishop" buy his title, give him deference in his error/deception, etc., proves my entire point on the subject. This system is anti-Christ through and through and you would support and give credence to it? Would I provide a bed for a RCC "bishop" if he was without a place to lay his head? Yeah, if the Lord was in it, so I could preach the Gospel to him, preach/teach truth from the scriptures, help him see the error of RCC (that he could repent and truly be born again), etc. would I just welcome him and his teaching in my home, call him "bishop", and just give him place to sleep so he could teach RCC at my local catholic cathedral? Absolutely not. The difference? Purpose. Intention. Motivation. SCRIPTURE. This doscussion's necessity among people daily on a christian forum website proves my whole point actually. Keep scooting error under the rug and eventually confusion is rampant
So you know, I never used the word, nor verbiage, you stated "mindlessly" supporting Greg's policies. I did not, nor would the Spirit of the Lord allow me to, say those words, nor have that heart/intention. Go back and Reread my post.
Friend, I reread your post. When you mention us supporting Greg's "blanket policies" without any prayer, this, to me, denotes mindless (without the mind of Christ) support. How do you know about our prayer regarding these policies, or lack thereof? That was all I meant.
In fact, there are CLEARLY people in our fellowship with teaching gifts, pastoral gifts, evangelistic gifts, prophetic gifts, etc. We don't call each other "Prophetess so-and-so", Pastor So and so, Teacher so and so, etc. Jesus said, "Call no man Teacher, or Father, for we all have one Father in heaven....". So, if we don't call each other (true brethren), by titles other than our names and maybe Brother so and so, then why on earth would I call a false teacher, in a false religion, by a false teacher with "Bishop John" from the RCC? Wouldn't that DIRECTLY contradict what Jesus said there and give false credence to their error? Love speaks the truth.
"Truth without love is brutality. Love without truth is sentimentality"
Art Katz
To call a RCC "Bishop" buy his title, give him deference in his error/deception, etc., proves my entire point on the subject. This system is anti-Christ through and through and you would support and give credence to it? Would I provide a bed for a RCC "bishop" if he was without a place to lay his head? Yeah, if the Lord was in it, so I could preach the Gospel to him, preach/teach truth from the scriptures, help him see the error of RCC (that he could repent and truly be born again), etc. would I just welcome him and his teaching in my home, call him "bishop", and just give him place to sleep so he could teach RCC at my local catholic cathedral? Absolutely not! The difference? Purpose. Intention. Motivation. SCRIPTURE. This discussion’s necessity among people daily on a Christian forum website proves my whole point actually. Keep scooting error under the rug and eventually confusion is rampant. Jeffmar
Brother jeffmar I admire and respect your honesty and zeal for the Lord. If you look back at a few threads on this subject I have also made some clear and unequivocal statements about the RCC. I am only sharing in this way to press a balance between respecting the governance of this ministry (SI) and that which The Lord Himself is doing across the world in seeking to deliver His people from a system of world (catholic) religion with all of its lies and sins. Yes from hell too, but for those who are yet alive from the consequences of those lies and sins. This deliverance is coming and when it comes it will be a wonder and a marvel. There are many true saints who have no love for this system of religion but take the words of Revelations seriously when it prophetically makes certain that there is coming a day when this world (catholic) and Roman system will be judged. Many of these people are in Italy itself. There is no confusion on their part or mine as to the realities involved.
I do not fellowship with Rome but I will fellowship with any saint where my spirit bears witness to their belonging to Christ. If this means eating with them and giving them a bed then so be it. It is the least thing one can do. I don’t suppose the bishop of Rome would ever be in need of either of these things, neither would I call him brother, but if he were when that judgment comes, even if in the very last minute he changed his mind and cried out to God I would if it were possible be there to minister to him in Christ Name. In the mean time the point is a facile one.The judgment that is coming on Rome is no fanciful event. It will be real and will make of even strong men, little children. Others will rage and perish. Only The Lord Himself knows these things. In the end however as far as this subject is concerned openly and systematically speaking against anything per se is discouraged in favor of presenting the substance that is Christ Himself apart from men.
My home is a private place so when I call a man bishop it is because he is by name a bishop. No one is harmed by what happens in my home. I cover my family and know how to resist evil. I could not be found in the local RCC so there is no issue. Moreover if it pleased God to set me before the bishop of Rome I would be compelled by reason of obedience to call him lord Bishop. If you cannot understand this then I respectfully suggest it is because you will have no such responsibility. In every age and throughout the Scriptures all in authority are given the title lord, including the apostate and wicked kings. Only prophets are treated with complete contempt if they err, and so it should be because they are without excuse.
Paul,
Just to clarify, I was merely speaking of "blanket policy" as a matter of definition. Everyone says its "in the SI statements/policies about its purpose" & there's no place for expose. I meant no slander or negative connotation/confrontation, just stating what was presented to me.
I also wasn't saying that noone prayed about the site or sought the Lord's leadings, but just asking for the moderators to follow their own rules on "praying before posting" in response to what I'm saying. That's all. I'm not trying to be contentious or argumentative. My heart is burning that the church see the compromise/avoidance lately of the RCC doctrines in what I believe is a spiritually detrimental (& anti-scriptural) skirting of this grievous error which is gaining deceptive steam among those who profess the name of Christ. Why not take down Steve Gallagher's messages on Apostacy, Babylon, etc., if we shy away from the "Mother of all harlots"? What are we REALLY gaining in dodging/avoiding/locking this discussion?
by jeffmar on 2012/11/13 6:13:24
I understand what you're saying, but disagree with "seeker sensitive" "felt-needs" evangelism. Not because I'm unloving, but because Jesus did. Was it unloving of Christ to touch on the idols of the Rich Young Ruler's heart and that he should walk away? Jesus wept over it in compassion, but still didnt skirt the issue and avoid the idolatry in his heart.
Besides that, even worse would be your mother coming to SI, see these issues avoided and ignored, & get the idea that her RCC was Ok, like just another denominational choice within the IC (like MANY now believe wrongly) & be deceived and go to hell. And then, one day, at the Great White Throne Judgement, scream, cry, weep, & wail and ask "WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THE TRUTH THAT COULDA SET ME FREE?!!!"
God is Soveriegn over salvation. You/I are not. Therefore our job under scripture is to be loving & compassionate, but faithful. Evangelism should start with a desire to do the Will of the Father FIRST. Then our compassion for people is clean. Otherwise, our emotions for people are stronger than our desire to serve/please the Father (like Jesus). Felt-needs evangelism and seeker sensitive mentality has the Gospel/evangelism upside down. Jesus came to save us cause He had his heart set on doing the will of the Father First and Foremost. Did he love and have compassion for us? Yes! But his FIRST AND DRIVING MOTIVATION WAS TO PLEASE HIS FATHER & DO HIS WILL FAITHFULLY! God is Soveriegn in salvation, not man, his methods, his emotions, his fears of how God's truth comes across, etc.
Proverbs 3:5
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not to your own understanding.
______________
Greetings Jeff
I assume this post was meant as a reply to me since I was speaking about my mother:) First let me just say I was in no way implying anyone should be "seeking sensitive" and I hardly think that the SI forum could be described that way. Of course I have and do share truth with my mother. I do not want her to end up in hell and I do realize if she does not repent that is where she will be but I have learned that attacking her beliefs does little but drive her further away. I have learned to shared truth with her from a loving heart and to live daily seeking JESUS on her behalf. She does know I do "not" believe that the RCC is a christian church, she also knows that I believe that the RCC is pagan and false so telling her that over and over every time we talk is going to do nothing to draw her to JESUS. However as I share with her all that CHRIST has done in my life and I point her to JESUS, GOD has used these times to prick her heart and there have been doors opened. Of course I stand my ground and I do not back down when she talks about topics relating to the RCC because there can be no compromise but sharing with her and lecturing her are two different things...for me I have learned that one is done in love while the other is done in pride.
I do understand your heart and your zeal over this topic. I love my mother and I want to see her come to JESUS. Not just for her own sake but because JESUS is worthy of HIS reward. I do believe we need to speak truth but it must be in HIS timing and not our own. IT also must be in love and honestly some of the threads that have been on this forum concerning this issue have been less then loving and I think that is what the mods are attempting to avoid.
God bless
mj
Jesus spoke a parable about this very type of situation and we will do well to seek to properly understand it and apply it. I refer to the parable of the Tares.
The parable indicated that the "tares" were sown "in the midst" of the wheat. The servants of the Master who sowed the good seed recognized the "tares" as the heads began to form. In their zeal, they asked the Master if He would have them pluck up the "tares" immediately. The Master wisely answered No! - lest the wheat be uprooted also.
May the Lord grant us wisdom in how to recognize the "tares" in our midst without uprooting our brethren in the process.
makrothumia
Amrkelly,
What you stated in your second email is different, much more qualified, than your first. Yes, I would accept any brethren as such, preach the truth to them, love them (leaving them in grievous error is NOT love), etc. ALL the RCC I have ever known who got truly born again, the Spirit of God instantly opened their eyes to the false religion & idolatry of RCC & RAN!! So if someone had NO conscience of these things while steeped in idolatry and satanic religion, I would have to presume their yet "unregenerate" condition. I would lovingly point out some scriptures (while praying & relying on the Holy Spirit to lead me), & then see if they viciously defend their religion that they were clearly shown was AGAINST scripture? If the Lord opened their eyes (all at once or progressively) then praise God He is truly working in their heart and using His Word to shed light on darkness in their heart/life. If they totally reject/resist it, I might ask them to lay hands on them and pray for deliverance from this dark demonic delusion.
And as for calling them not just bishop, but Lord Bishop? Are you serious? Did you not read Jesus' words in scripture in my last post? Honor for a king, president, boss, etc. is one thing. Calling a false religion title person "Lord Bishop"? Again, in love, the more this discussion goes on, the more necessary it is to have it & quit avoiding/locking threads on it. Everyone has head knowledge of RCC, but seems unwilling to lovingly take it head on the way our Lord took on the Jews, His instructions in scripture call us to, etc. I will call no man Lord or Lord Bishop. I am not "anti-authority" either (quite the contrary actually), but that floors me.
I grew up a Catholic and I remained Catholic until I was 25 years of age. And I was definitely a Christian by age 4. For the first 12 years of my Catholcism the mass was in latin. So I read the epistles placed in the pews, these were the writings directly from the New Testament. Being an avid reader, I read the words of the New Testament in Church. In my teens, and as a young adult, I was hungry for the word of God, I read the Bible. The more I read, the more I learned, the more I learned from the Bible, the more incongruity I saw between in the teachings of the Catholic Church and the Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, and of the promises of the Jewish (Old) Testament.
At 25 years of age, I left the RCC because their doctrines did not wash with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the promises of the OT. The RCC salvation was based on personal sacrifice and works, do and do nots, and not by the 'Free gift' of Jesus blood, the blood that atones for all our sins as the ultimate covering our sins - Past, Present, and Future, to all whom believe God and accept the blood covering of the unblemished Lamb of God, who came to take our sins by He who did not sin, but rather, took our sins upon our sins, and Jesus took our place on the cross, that we may live with Him forever, in Paradise.
There are many Catholics that are Christians, saved not by keeping the Catholic Sacrements, but by their accepting the blood Jesus as atonement of the Lamd Of God, Jesus Christ. Yet they keep their Catholicism they grew up in, with family and friends.
In my experience Most Catholics do not even know what their Church actually teaches, the Catholic Magisterial is enormous and very few Catholics actually read it. I Label these Christians as Billy Graham Christians. They hear a Billy Graham on Television or in person, and they fully agree with the pronounced true Gospel, not even knowing what their own Church actually teaches on salvation. So they have the Gospel, and they believe the Billy Graham call to true salvation, but still see themselves as being Catholic.
Here, on sermonindex, it may well prove to be foolish to attack the Catholic Church per se. Our focus should be on the teachings of Christ and accomplishments of Jesus Christ in that He took our sins upon His-self, and thereby becoming the sin bearer whom took away all sins and nailed them on the cross, to all who accepted His death on the cross in our place, and whose BLOOD washes away all our sins for all time to those who believe HIM. AND THIS, A GIFT, FREELY GIVEN FROM GOD TO ALL WHO RECEIVE AND ACCEPT THE FREE GIFT. There is nothing we can do to earn it.
as a Jew who follows Jesus i have quite a different take on the POWER STRUCTURE of the roman institution, but i'll stay my keyboard, i love you in Messiah brother.
what i find VERY telling about this forum, is that while the moderators swear up and down, "we eschew political discussions", they say NOTHING about a current thread abrewing, its an abomination, about 20 states wanting to "seceed" from the United States......while brother Jeffmar gets pilloried for saying what ought be said.
Hezwelling, my wife and I attend a Park Free Evangelical Church on Sunday's. And on Saturdays, we go and partake in a Messianic Christian Church where most members are Jewish Christians. It is a wonderful fellowship, very informative and very 'Yeshua' centered.
Recently we attended 'Succoth' there, Feast of Booths, it was wonderful, festive, Dancing with many children dancing too, and a portence of a Biblical appointment to come, and in my view, coming soon. God has assured that the time when the eyes of all Jews will be opened, and all will be saved. I believe that that time of the gentiles being saved is nearing the end, and All True Israel will be saved, and know their true saviour, Yeshua.
makrothumia's
May the Lord grant us wisdom in how to recognize the "tares" in our midst without uprooting our brethren in the process.
Very good wisdom here.
hi, i think that all churches have a great deal of error in them and romanism and mormonism are at the head of the list.... this is not how we shoud look at those people in all the churches. only 2 types... the lost and the saved and both need God and we should be about loving each enough to minister the Love of Jesus to them. let us take the name tags off of the people we see and love them enough to minister Jesus and Him crucified in God given wisdom.jimp
Wheat & Tares refers CLEARLY to the assembly of those who name the name of Christ, NOT false teachers. Jesus, Pauk, Peter, & John spoke CLEARLY about wolves, false teachers, false teaching/doctrine, etc. Whole different subject from wheat/Tares (the people).
Jeffmar -
1. the moderators have made their position clear. You are aware that continuation is rebellion to them.
2. It is also clear that they, and virtually all here, would be in agreement with your views on Catholicism.
3. It is also clear that this is a topic that has been beaten to death on SI. You are not bringing anything new to the table. Your exact words, scriptures, etc. are all in the forums postings over and over. More of the same isn't necessary
4. The continuation of it in no way accomplishes the sites purpose of ,"The mission of SermonIndex is the preservation and propagation of classical Biblical preaching and the promotion of Christ-centered revival to this generation."
5. You have been, and are, encouraged to pursue that at sites that major on it. I use some of those sites myself.. as do others here. Let each site do what it is called to do. Don't try to make the hand be the foot.
6. If you really are this worked up over it and feel "compelled" to pursue it then by all means do so! But do so in a place that it actually applies!
Brother, please consider this. You claim to be shining the light on the errors of Catholicism. Most all here agree with your points. Perhaps that is all you are looking for. You just want some" that's right" amens from the choir. If so you have had them and move on. However, if you are looking to actually deliver people from darkness why in the world are you spending time and energy on this site doing it?!?! This is a waste of God's resources in your life if you are called to that.
Consider that
1. There are no Catholics using this site
2. You are not changing anyones mind here or bringing anything new to the table. Most everyone here basically agrees with you and what you are saying. It has all also already been said hundreds of times over.
If you really believe God has called you to this then get off of this website and get your tail out there where those Catholics are! Pray for them, love them, share the truth with them. That may return fruit. However, to post endlessly here on a site that no one disagrees with you over it... and to do so in direct violation of the moderators requests is rebellion.
If it is your calling....get off these posts and go fulfill it. If you just need "attaboys" then you have had them. Other than that there is no reason to post on it further other than to just show disrespect and argumentativeness to those who administer this site.
If you are so strongly passionate I would believe that perhaps God has called you to minister in this arena. However, there is no one here to do that with! Go out where lots of Catholics are and do it! Love, share, shine light, bring truth, ask key question that help them find the truth ... if you are called to it... then go do it! I, and many, encourage you in it!
Perhaps a better frame of questions and posts for you might be on asking those who have been successful in reaching Catholics how they did so. Those are pieces of truth that you, and most of us, could use to help deliver people.
I think all here appreciate your zeal. It is just a bit misdirected in this thread. Find the proper focus and you may experience much fruit being born out of it.
Blessings JeffMar
Dear Brother Jeff Marshall,
It's not that the moderators do not care about the Roman Catholic Church being an apostate institute or believing that any religion for that matter is good. Yes, we as Christians hold to Christ and Christ alone being the Only Way to God. But the fact is, this is not a place to just simply call out other groups who we do not agree with. The purpose for the SermonIndex forum to to edify the Body of Christ at large with sound teaching and help each other grow in the grace and the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18). If there is an attack on this forum with false teaching as we have experienced in the past, we will call them out and ask them respectfully to leave. We are to guard the flock from false teaching, that is true.
But, I would say that for every true Christian, God is faithful in bringing His sheep out from false teaching in His timing and His way. Jeremiah 32:40 reads, "I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me." For every true Christian, God puts the fear of Him in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Him. That is a glorious truth. I say this with experience, I used to be in a cult before called the Local Church Movement; a movement that deviated from Watchman Nee's original teachings and the leader Witness Lee started to put his own theology into the church. They had a lot of truth, but there was a little bit of poison behind their teachings. But God was faithful enough to bring me out of that movement. If the LORD loves His people, He will do everything in His power to protect His flock from turning away from Him. Yes, there are a lot of heresies out there, but rest in God. It is not up to you to save them, it's up to Him. And frankly I say this, as I was discerning a lot of what you are writing, you are writing a lot from your flesh. I do not know if you want some glory for yourself in writing this or a seeking of attention, but I ask that you please repent and stop what you are doing. If all the Body of Christ is going to just calling out other people, do not be surprised when you start growing a legalistic spirit in your heart. If all we do is look outside and see their problems, we can easily forget the many logs that are lodged within our own eyes. As one brother said, "Truth without love is a killer, but love without truth is a liar." I pray Dear Brother that you will grow more and more in Christ and I say this without hatred towards you, but with love and encouragement.
God help us all....
Your Servant in Jesus' Name,
- Michael Liao
1. There are no Catholics using this site
That actually isn't so.
I can't remember the username, maybe Andy something or other I think, but there is, I think, a fairly frequent user here who is a convert TO (not from) the RCC, and he's defended his choice on several threads. I would naturally assume he's not the only one either, as ecumenism is being pushed at an alarming rate recently.
Before, when we had the private message option, I had received PM's from a user imploring me to consider the "truths" of the RCC and consider joining it as well. He stated he was also a former protestant who had converted (he said he actually used to enjoy this site as a protestant) and now had to share the "truth" with others.
I think there are possibly more people trapped in that lie who both use and stumble across this site than we'd like to think.
Just saying.
@jeffmar
Send me an email (my address is in my profile).
Forgive my ignorance, but how do I find your profile? :-)
There should be a little underlined hyper-link under my post that says 'Profile'. My email address will be on there.
hezwilling wrote:
"while brother Jeffmar gets pilloried for saying what ought be said."
I agree with solomon 101-- it is not clear to whom jeffmar is addressing his comments.
If a RC came on here and began arguing catholic apologetics, then a platform may exist for posts like jeffmar's to discuss the issue.
But i don't see anyone, at least since i have been around, arguing catholic apologetics.
In other words, jeffmar is preaching to the choir.
In other words, jeffmar is preaching to the choir.
Not exactly. His thread is in response to another thread that got locked where Brothertom posted an article that detailed IHOP now joining hands with the Roman Catholic church and working together with them in an upcoming conference.
This is a whole sale joining hands with an antichrist organization (though some including myself would argue it's just two like kinds joining hands), and people should be warned that when they're giving approval to guys like Mike Bickle (which is undiscerning in itself) they're giving approval to a man who openly cooperates with the Whore of Babylon, and feeds from it's teachers.
If the "choir" agrees that the RCC is inherently evil at it's root, and a tool of antichrist, what would we then call a supposedly Christian organization that openly hosts an ecumenical conference and partners with them while teaching from their sages?
Jeffmar's concern is entirely a legitimate one.
There is more to this than all the presumptions that I want "attaboy"s, prideful flesh arguments, etc. it pertains to something that grieves me and concerns me greatly. I don't care if it has been said a million times, there are some on here who haven't seen it, don't understand it, and are getting a wrong message when it's quashed and thread locked, and treated as if it's just another denomination. Besides, you know how many other things on this site have been hashed and rehashed a million times (& continue to be)?
The "discerning" of some that I am just trying to be rebellious, proud, seeking glory, etc. is poor. What Glory is there in that for me? I am CONCERNED. but, it doesn't seem to matter, so I will leave it alone after this post forever. I am going to share some scriptures on this matter though. Surely those matter more than all the expert opinions on here, regardless if "we all read them all before in previous posts"?
Matthew 7:15
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Acts 13:6-12
6 And when they had gone through the isle to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10 And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, you child of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is on you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Galatians 2:4
4 And that because of false brothers unawares brought in, who came in privately to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
2 Peter 2:1-6
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privately shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved to judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample to those that after should live ungodly;
1 John 4:1
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Matthew 10:16
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the middle of wolves: be you therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Acts 20:28-31
28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
1 Timothy 1:5-7
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside to vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
2 Timothy 4:1-4
1 I charge you therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.
1 Tmothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God has created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1 Timothy 5:22
22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep yourself pure.
2 John 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses, and stays not in the doctrine of Christ, has not God. He that stays in the doctrine of Christ, he has both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that bids him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Im not trying to be rebellious towards men, but obedientbtowards God. I just wanted to make sure I understood rightly what is/isn't being said (& not said) here. People's eternities are at stake and more than even that, the purity of the Gospel & God's Glory, and obedience to His Word is at stake. If you think that's rebellious, you misunderstand me, but more importantly you misunderstand God's Word and what Word trumps men's plans, policies, rules, etc.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful to men, but respectful to God, His Word, His Spirit, and those who will be deceived by the silence and avoidance of those who don't want to do what these and TONS of other scriptures implore leaders/teachers/shepherds/brethren in the Body to do. Anything less would dishonor God's Word. You can think whatever you may about me. I am not perfect, but the opinions of men (I don't even know really) matters little to me. Being found faithful on judgement day does. I didn't get born again two weeks ago either, so please don't just disregard what These scrtires say and warn of as some "young immature zealots" over-anxiousness. Been there, done that, wore the T-Shirt. My heart burns at the unwillingness to allow open discussion when Apostacy and deception are more rampant than ever, just to "focus" on good things as we perceive it. If that's wrong in the moderators eyes, I don't need to be on this website at all anymore. If I have to "go to another website to discuss these matters", I'm on the wrong website to begin with. I'm broken hearted at this very possibility even now, not proud, contentious, or rebellious.
If you think that's rebellious, you misunderstand me, but more importantly you misunderstand God's Word and what Word trumps men's plans, policies, rules, etc.
Well said.
As ironic as it is (& I'm a "Soveriegn God" guy, not a chance and circumstance guy), the advertisement header above the forum just now was:
Catholic Courses.
Take and learn about Catholic AND OTHER Christian course right now...blah...blah...blah
Not to discuss, expose, and bring clarity about/around heresy is to "give heed to it", & be a "partaker in its deeds". Doesn't matter what I say, what I think, what you think, or with all due respect, what any "moderator" thinks on the subject. What matters REALLY is what does the Word of God say?
Read those scriptures (there are MANY more) & see Gods heart in warning His people, & warning His under shepherds to warn others. And the subject of the thread on IHOP & the RCC (that was locked) wasn't "preaching to the choir" or "been hashed a million times". It was NEW NEWS & should have been chewed on a little, meditated on, compared with scripture, taken to prayer (maybe even fasting & prayer if internal confliction exists), etc. not shut down and told "not here. Go somewhere else for that". That makes me want to cry. What are we doing & why are we doing it?
Hey EverestoSama,
I am honoured you remembered me! I'm not a bloke though, I'm female. And yes I came to faith influenced by evangelical Christianity, but I am now Catholic.
I still come here and read but I don't post much.
And the Lord confirms for all to see just as His Spirit leads
Would you mind sharing here of how you came to saving faith in the Lord Jesus & when/how you got Born Again?
@jeffmar
I sent you an email (from my normal account and not the one listed here), so check your spam just in case it landed there.
@andie72
I'm sorry that I mistook you for a male. In America Andy is usually a boys name and I made a blind assumption on the name alone, so my apologies about the mix up.
If you have time, I have a sermon that I've hosted online that I'd be curious to hear your input on. The director of my missionary organization was raised as a Roman Catholic, and he has a sermon of five questions addressed specifically to Roman Catholics that I'd personally like to hear your input on.
If you have the time and inclination, would you send me an email (my email is in my profile), and I can link you to the sermon?
Thanks, and again, sorry for the mix up.
Hi saints, wow, I see that this thread has went SI viral. I have read many of the posts and would just like to give my own small overview. I am an ex Catholic, born and raised in a tough Catholic working class community in the lowlands of Scotland. My family on my fathers side are Catholics and have been for hundreds of years if not more. I had a Catholic education, married in the church and my first son buried by the Catholic church.
I like a lot of what Maryjane has been expressing. My father, after himself being saved at the age of 49, became very anti- Catholic. Now do not get me wrong, I do not have a single disagreement with him, nor would I have any disagreement with Brothertom in regard to Catholicism. Yet my dad was and still is an angry man and incapable of effectivly sharing the Gospel with Catholics. Without love brothers and sisters we have nothing and I have seen a lot of people share truth without love. One can share hard truths with anyone if love burns at the center of who they are. If their passion for Jesus is pre-eminant in their lives.
Having said all of that, some of the issues we have seen on SI is the tearing down of men like Tozer because of his supposed connections with Catholic mystics. Or Madam Guyon ( please, no debating on these two figures, we have done all that before) Its like my dad, he sees ecumenicalism everywhere like the unbalanced Pentecostal brother who may see demons behind every corner.
If all we do, and I am referring to no one on Si, is curse the darkness, then I can tell you that we will not have an effective ministry. The single most effective encounter I had with a staunch Catholic was over a kitchen table. She ranted for about 15 minutes about Catholic haters and how the Catholics were the true people of God. When I got my opportunity, I began to speak and I could feel that the Holy Spirit was leading and guiding my words. I spoke of Jesus and my love for Him and how after encountering Him He had changed my life and my whole world. I spoke in this manner, uninterupted by the previously angry woman, for about 20 minutes. I will never forget her words to me after I was done talking, she said in a very low and humbled voice " I do not know that Jesus you are talking about." You see how much she learned in a few minutes? Her whole view of Jesus and who He is was radically upended and she knew, without me saying it, that she did not know Him.
Brothers ans sisters, I hate Catholic doctrine. I think the mass is a Satanic masterpiece of counterfiet and that Catholicism has been the pied piper of the devil leading millions and millions of people into hell. I am somewhat of a historian when it comes to the pilgrim church, the remnant church and I know what this monster of iniquity has done to our brothers and sisters down through the ages. I have wept over this. Yet in my heart burns a heart of love for catholics. Catholics , on the whole, know only shame on and condemnation and know nothing of the personal love that Jesus has for them. I share with Catholics the same way as I would share with a Muslim, I talk about Jesus. I bypass the counterfiet and I focus on the real $100 bill. If I am challenged I respond with Scripture. Please be led as the Spirit leads but we must always, if we have opportunity, be reaching out to Catholics with the power of truth delivered by love............bro Frank
Hi Jeff,
Catholics believe that being born of water and the Spirit in John 3 refers to the Sacrament of Baptism.
My upbringing was only very nominally Christian. Mum may have some small residual belief in God, but the rest are agnostic. I heard the Gospel message, and believed briefly in childhood, but just found it impossible to know for sure as I grew up. I read and asked God to show me if he existed, but I was always unsure.
Anyway a couple of years ago I had gone through some difficult times with lots of things including addiction and I was looking at the God question again. Then one night I was reading a site on science and God. I couldn't even tell you exactly what site it was, but it just suddenly hit me, there is a God! I can only think it was God's grace. And it was at this stage that the Old testament started to make sense to me. Augustine said 'The New Testament is hidden in the Old, and the Old testament is revealed in the New'. It was like I was seeing the Bible in a new way.
This is when I made the decision to follow Jesus, I repented of my past sins and committed myself to following God. And I am still doing this today, imperfectly, but determined to trust in Jesus and perserve.
If all we do, and I am referring to no one on Si, is curse the darkness, then I can tell you that we will not have an effective ministry. The single most effective encounter I had with a staunch Catholic was over a kitchen table. She ranted for about 15 minutes about Catholic haters and how the Catholics were the true people of God. When I got my opportunity, I began to speak and I could feel that the Holy Spirit was leading and guiding my words. I spoke of Jesus and my love for Him and how after encountering Him He had changed my life and my whole world. I spoke in this manner, uninterupted by the previously angry woman, for about 20 minutes. I will never forget her words to me after I was done talking, she said in a very low and humbled voice " I do not know that Jesus you are talking about." You see how much she learned in a few minutes? Her whole view of Jesus and who He is was radically upended and she knew, without me saying it, that she did not know Him.
Dear Brother,
Thank you for sharing your testimony and burden. We are going to close the thread on this post because it really gives a balanced, biblical and christ-like approach to the RCC and also how we should minister and speak of our "enemies" even (that being in love) as our Lord taught us.
Throughout this thread there have been accusations and questions towards the moderatorship of the website and how this is being done. I do not want to spend time trying to justify myself or the other moderators intentions, motives and heart. Rather I want to speak to the more important underlying issue below all of this discussion, the IHOP discussion and others.
That is our Christ-likeness.
As some brothers have stated to have to have every single Christian debate solved on sermonindex will really not help the kingdom of God expand in anyway. What is 100% more important is all the members of the forums exhibiting great love and Christ-likeness to each other and to those they are speaking of. The Love of God should be known and felt in these discussions.
It is clear and obvious when reading through many comments, rants, reactionary posts and other posts that many are not written out of love but out of a perturbed state of being. I believe the focus needs to be on Christ more and not on every false ideal and theology. If we are well versed in the truth we will always be able to detect the counterfeit and such is the way of the kingdom.
Another area of Christ-likeness is submission to authority and considering others better than ourselves. This is not something to be by-passed but very important in our daily walks with the Lord. If we are catering rebellion in our hearts to any authority that God has put in place it can be a very spiritually dangerous thing. In my life I try my best to respect and honour delegated authorities and to not "slander" them or question them publicly. In the case of an Elder of a church I would never question the Elder publicly before his flock. Rather I would seek to find a time with him privately to air concerns and before that share the burden with the Lord for many weeks. Also to speak privately about the wrong leadership one feels there is in assembly and not to pray about it is simply gossip. And chiefly if we are not praying to the Lord privately "much" about problems in those in authority then we should not seek to discuss these things with others even privately.
Another important aspect dear brothers is our growth in Christ, Are we growing in Christ-likeness? Have we come to SermonIndex to listen to sermons, to grow in Christ, to encourage and be encouraged by others? Or do we have an agenda and things we want to do and teach others? One of my prayers for myself is that I would always desire to be teachable and to learn from all different brothers especially those that are weak. We have asked some members on SermonIndex to not participate in the forums simply because they were not teachable and did not come to "learn" but rather to teach everyone else. I believe this type of spirit will never build the body of Christ who is not teachable and humble to learn like a child. Even the most learned and godly amongst us should be learning from others in the body of Christ. We see this wonderful example from Paul the Apostle who always spoken of "mutual edification".
Lastly I would like to share that Christ-likeness shares the mind of Christ. And this mind sees how God sees and looks at the Church how God sees it. We see divisions, sects, Catholic vs protestant (strictly). God does not see this way but looks at the heart. It is not even an understatement to say there have been true brethren who have been in the Catholic system. Throughout the arguably 1700 years of Catholicism existing in part there have been those who truly knew Christ, believed His atonement and trusted in His work even in the midst of a growing list of pagan and demonically driven traditions. Especially during periods of the middle ages there was a large monastic movement where many of the more "true" believers instead of being kicked out of the church were given the blessing to go and start communities to follow "all the scriptures". Such places have been where the Gospel was preserved until finally a Hus and others emerged from the blackness of Popery. Pilgrim Church is an excellent book on this Church History.
Yet as we continue to reformers, and onwards still there was persecution exacted to other "true brethren" so there has always been a mixture and if we look from our fleshly eyes we will never see the beauty of God's true body of Christ. John Bunyan found out this truth after judging and persecuting the Quaker movement (George Fox's church) but once Bunyan found himself in jail with 2 Quakers did he realize they were "true brethren" and his doctrinal differences was non-sequential. May God gives us eyes to see how He sees his body and to not judge others.
In conclusion I would like to simply say that to God it is much better to have love, mercy and grace then to simply have the truth and hit someone with it. It is much better to be led of the Spirit than to do 1 million things for God in the flesh. It is better to do the work of God in spreading the love of Christ than to sit and speak against the darkness. The moravian movement of history never won the lost and had a year long 24/7 prayer meeting by finding every false doctrine and trying to tell Christendom about it. Rather they went out with such sacrifice, love and commitment that is shock believers everywhere with their peace and grace and resulted the conversion of not just thousands of heathen but John Wesley, Charles Wesley and George Whitefield also. And what was the power that did all of this, it was their Christ-likeness, Christ in them. To the glory of God. May He do it again and again.
This article will be posted in a separate thread also not to re-hash the RCC debate but to allow constructive, deifying comments on the theme of this article on Christ-likeness.
this thread is locked.
Greetings brothers and sisters, just thought I'd share my two cents here. This has been an interesting thread for me to read through. I see very good points on both sides of this issue. And as has been the case on so many other issues, I see a balance needed here.
I can see the need for exposing false doctrine in order to be faithful to God and His Word, and to help others who are caught up in harmful teachings. But I can also see the need for focusing on, exalting, and pointing others to Jesus, as we share about who He is and what He's done and is doing, and is going to do.
It's all about Jesus and His Word, the two being inseperable.
As one who has displayed a very rough side here on this forum at times, by God's grace I have had to learn the hard way(still learning) the need for heeding the exhortation given in 2Tim.2:23-26:
"23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will."
I can look back and see how I have toned down quite a bit compared to before. I used to be more quick to harshly rebuke anyone who would disagree with me on any given subject. Nowadays I am more careful to prayerfully try to discern whether or not I should just say, "let's agree to disagree respectfully and move on, shall we?"
Sometimes we can argue back and forth, share scripture after scripture till our faces turn blue and still have no one change their minds on a given subject. The question then becomes, is it really worth it to keep arguing when no one is open to change their view regardless of how much scripture is shared.
If I ever believed this site was going astray(which I've never seen so far even on this issue at hand), I would hope it would not cause me to be dismayed or discouraged. I would hope to prayerfully call it to the moderators' attention and if they refused to take heed I would hope to simply move on and leave it in the Lord's hand.
Sometimes all we can do is pray and move on and leave matters in the hands of our sovereign LORD. No matter how many individuals and church systems become apostate He will always have His remnant who do not bow the knee to baal.
When it comes down to it we should not base our Christian fellowship or walk or ministry on any internet forum. Yes, we can enjoy sweet fellowship here to a certain extent, but it's not nearly the same as seeing your brothers' faces and greeting them and fellowshipping with them in person. That's where the Lord would really have us fellowship. And yes we can minister God's Word here and be a blessing to others in that way. But the real ministry and battle is out there in the highways and hedges where Jesus is building His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Too often forums like this become the central fellowship of believers while they do not seek out real fellowship anywhere. Many of us spend too much time on forums like this I'm sorry to say, sometimes including myself. May God help us all.