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Which Covenant Did Jesus Teach?

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Which Covenant Did Jesus Teach?

Randy Hagin

What do you think Jesus was teaching during his ministry? Was he teaching the fulfillment of the Old Covenant or was he teaching his New Covenant? If you say he was teaching the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, then Jesus was teaching within the boundaries of the Old Law. If you say Jesus was teaching the New Covenant, then he was teaching outside the Old Covenant and breaking the Old Law by teaching something different. Some will say: "it was his testament; he was testator so that gave him the freedom to make or break laws." This is inconsistent with Jesus keeping the law perfectly. So the question comes down to this; which covenant did Jesus teach?

Did He teach the fulfillment of the Old or a New Covenant? We must solve the question to rightly divide the word of God. Your answer to this question determines how you view all scripture. If you determine Jesus was teaching a New Covenant (which was different and alien to the Old Covenant) then your view of the Old Law has nothing to do with you. Therefore, I do not need to know it or understand it. The New Testament is all that I need. On the other hand, if you determine that Jesus taught the fulfillment of the Old Law. Then you understand that the Old Law plays an intricate part in the New Covenant, and the two are interleaved. Therefore, I must know the Old to understand the New Covenant.
Remember, Jesus was under the Old Testament law:

Galatians 4:4-5, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law,"

The Old Covenant was not bad: on the contrary it was good: but the people couldn't keep it.

Hebrews 8:6-8, "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"

God finds fault with them. The "them" in this verse were those under the Old Covenant. Jesus was the only one who kept the law perfectly unlike his people.

Hebrews 4:15, "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Hebrews 5:8-9, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Jesus did not teach anything different from what the Old Covenant taught or he would have broken the Law.

Deuteronomy 4:2, "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Deuteronomy 12:32, "What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it."

Look at the following passage, which is when Jesus met a rich young man.

Mark 10:17-20, "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth."

Jesus did not say follow the New Covenant. On the contrary, he told them to follow the current covenant he was under. At that time the rich man was under the Old Covenant. If he were teaching another covenant, would Jesus not be remised if he did not say, I've come teaching a new covenant and you must follow it to be saved. Or, After my death my servants will tell you a new law. No. He told him to follow God's Law (which, at the time, was revealed through the Old Covenant law).

Matthew 7:21-23, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Christ used the Old Testament law, which were the “scriptures” of their day, to prove the validity of his own teachings and mission. His listeners were to search the Old Testament scripture to test His Words.

Jesus spoke in the sermon on the mount after giving a long dissertation about "you have heard it said" or " and but I say to you", he said:

Matthew 5:17-19, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus said that until all is fulfilled, the Old Covenant is still in effect. So here's the question. When is, "till all be fulfilled"? The popular belief is that when Jesus said "it is finished" (John 19:30) on the cross, and the Temple vale tore from top to bottom, that was the fulfillment of all things. Another is that the fulfillment when Jesus said the following:

Luke 24:44, "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.".

Remember, Jesus said that which was to be fulfilled were things concerning him.

Each and every time fulfilled or fulfillment is mentioned in the scripture it specifically tells what event is being or has been fulfilled. An example, just in the book of Luke, would be Luke 1:20, 1:45, 4:21, 22:16, 22:37, 24:44. Interestingly enough there is a place that states an event is the fulfillment of all things that are written. This fulfillment would mark the complete change in the covenant ending the Old and beginning of the New Covenant.

Luke 21:21-24, "Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Here Jesus says the fulfillment of all things that is written was the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, the city, Israel politically, economically, and religiously. This throws a big wrench in the popular beliefs that the fulfillment of the Covenant was completed at the cross. Josephus records the destruction in "War's of the Jew Book 6:5" and the year is 70AD. Jesus was crucified some 40 years earlier. So why did the Apostles say we are freed from the Old Covenant even though it was still enforce?

Hebrews 8:6-13, "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

In speaking of "a new covenant," he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear. At the time Hebrews was written, the Old Covenant was still in effect, but was about to vanish away; but, had not yet. But, when will it vanish? When all things written were fulfilled. During the last days, or the transition period between Covenants, the First Christians had to be sealed by God. The sealing was for a specific period:

Ephesians 4:30, "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

This is the same sealing that is going on in Revelation 7:4-9 of God's people (Israel figuratively). The uncountable number in Revelation 7:9-17 are the same group as the 144,000, but they do not need the seal anymore. This symbolizes the end of the transition period between Covenants and the New Covenant in full power also the beginning of the eternal day.

An allegory would be during the administration of an out going President. The one in power becomes the Old Administration. It becomes provisional after the election results are known. Yet, he is sill in power and Commander and Chief. This time could be referred to as the LAST DAYS of that administration, beginning at the election and ending at the swearing in. It's not a New Administration but noticeable changes are taking place marking its end. The President Elect assumes more and more power as the parties' transition the Government under the new administration. The Old administration confers with the New Administration before making decision that effects the New Administration. Then the President Elect assumes full power after he swears in as President. Until then he cannot change any laws or make any agreements on behalf of the US that can be enacted until his inauguration.

When did the last days begin and end? This would mark the beginning and the end of the transitory period of the Old Covenant and the Beginning of the New Covenant. Remember the scripture that says all things are placed under Christ feet?

Ephesians 1:22, "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,"

If you use the example above, you can easily see how the scriptures can speak of it as already happening when it has not happened yet.

Hebrews 2:8, "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him."

This plainly tells us that when Hebrews was written, all things were still not in subjection to the Son, even though it is written as if it were complete in many other places. This is not a contradiction, but rather they were sill in the Last Days of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant was gaining power awaiting the appointed day it assumes full power. This was the day when the First Christians were told when you see it coming lift up your heads because your salvation is near. That day is the same day that all things that are written are fulfilled Luke 21. The question naturally is, "When did the Father put all things under the Son's feet?"

Before that day a few things have to happen.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28, "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

The scripture tells us that The Father must regain his throne of Israel that he lost when he was rejected by the people as King and they took Saul as their King in 1 Samuel 8:7. Once the Father regains his throne, then it is transferred to the Son. Many translate this as the son taking control of the kingdom and then returning it to the father at the end of time. This is inconsistent with the context. The father is the one who puts all things under the son's feet. The Father first hands over to himself and then turns it over to the Son.

Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone and the apostles and prophets are the foundation. Once a foundation of a house is laid the house being built is spoken of in the present tense or as if already built.

Ephesians 2:19-22, "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

The Hebrew writer tells us that the temple of the old covenant must be destroyed and the covenant fulfilled before another covenant can be empowered and the Spiritual Holy of Holies entered:

Hebrews 9:8-9, "The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;"

This scripture is saying that the lord could not enter into the Holy of Holies while the outer temple is standing. Again the theory about everything being completed at the cross is in question and suspect. It makes sense that the New Administration cannot take power until after the inauguration. It makes sense that the Cornerstone was laid at Calvary and the foundation was laid by the apostles after being empowered and guided by the Holy Spirit. Jesus' death was the beginning of the last day's and the completion of judgment on those of the Old Covenant was the end of the last day's. Jesus did not and would not teach another law. So when Jesus said in Matthew, "You have heard it was said" or, "and but I say unto you," he is not teaching a New Covenant. He is teaching the same message that God has said from the beginning.

Christ could not be teaching people to obey the New Testament laws, and disregard the Old Testament laws, because the New Covenant was of no force or strength while Jesus was physically alive:

Hebrews 9:15-17, " And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

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So, what exactly are you saying? Sorry, I am nit a theologian.

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

Jesus Christ lived under and taught the the Old Covenant.
Most of His teachings were specifically directed to the Jews who were under the law at that time.

J
jimp

hi, most christians that i have met have little or no knowlege of what a blood covenant actually is and what happens as the result thereof.Jesus taught the old but cut the new for God and man in His flesh. He is the new covenant.jimp

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sermonindex


Brothers, to me we cannot neatly organize God's people into different camps. There has been one people of God throughout human history, it says clearly that we are ingrafted into Israel promises (as the people of God).

The call to discipleship in the Gospels Matt 5-7, Matthew 24, etc are just as much applicable to each believer today as it was for the disciples 2000 years ago. The fuller revelation of God's promises are not revealed in Christ but that does not do away with the old testament Scripture.

Corinthians tells us specifically that we must learn from the example of how God worked in the past especially from disobedience. Also the New Testament is over 25% quotes from the Old Testament.

We want to believe all the Scriptures not just one part or emphasize one way of looking at the Scriptures, in the end we must come to the place of being honest with God and the Scriptures in our daily walk with the Lord. and being led of His Spirit.

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sermonindex

Tuc never thought about that. But you might have something there. When do you think the New Covenant began? The Old Testament speaks of the Holy Spirit as being the dynamic of the New Covenant. Do you think the New Covennt started at Pentacos?.

Bearmaster

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sermonindex

The bible makes it very clear That the New Covenant or Testament could not even start until after Christ's Death.

see
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=46388&forum=36&29

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Croref

The best tread I have found

Two Covenants - Christian Classics Ethereal Library


http://alturl.com/vxqq5

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sermonindex

Brothers just a thought. I as just reading in Hebrews 3. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses. Thus should we not give greater honor to his words as found in the New Testament.

Bearmaster.

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Sree

John 12-48
He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak [s]on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.

The words that Jesus spoke all this life is Eternal Life. We cannot discard it saying it is spoken only for Jews. Anyone who rejects his sayings is an unbeliever because he has rejected Jesus.

Also if Jesus lived an Old Covenant life then how can he ask me to follow him? Why is then the main work of Holy Spirit is to convert me into the image of Jesus (if he lived an old Covenant life)? (1 John 3:6).

Jesus lived a new covenant life. The only difference between old and new covenant is the Spirit of Jesus (Holy Spirit) living inside us and enabling us to keep the Spirit (requirements) of Law. This was not possible in Old Covenant and that is why they failed, because they did not have the Holy Spirit living inside them. But the Holy Spirit Dwelled in Jesus and that is why he was able to please God 100%, this is now our calling as well. What God has done for Jesus through the Holy Spirit, he will do it for me too, it is no secret.

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RogerB

Great explanation here:

http://www.radicalreformation.com/sermons/sermon/849-blood-atonement

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Heydave

tuc wrote: "Jesus Christ lived under and taught the the Old Covenant."

No Jesus is the eternal Son of God and is before the Old Covenant. His words are ETERNAL.

tuc wrote: "Most of His teachings were specifically directed to the Jews who were under the law at that time."

Well if that is true, you might as well cut the gospels out of your bible! This view conveniently takes the cutting edge away from Jesus' words as they no longer apply to me. This is dispensationlism at it's worst!

I have also heard teachers dismiss all the warning passaages in Hebrews as not applying to us, but the Jews. Utter nonsense!

If you take this type of teaching to it's logical conclusion, then none of the bible was written to us today but was literally to those to whom it was written at that time. Now you are left with nothing!!

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Croref

A good headsup call, Heydave!! In fact reform teaching, as presented by most, also fits that bill. "All we have to do is believe".

Thanks.

J
jimp

dear dave, any truth carried to its extreem is error save for Jesus. it is true that His words are eternal and it is also true that He lived before He cut the covenant at the cross (old covenant).the word of God has everlasting wisdom and is for everyone; the ten commandments is a great example.micah 6:8,the psalms,proverbs... now the 600 rules you must live by were for the old covenant believers.i tell newbies that the old testiment from gen 3:15 to john is the story of the seed line and satans efforts to destroy it.jimp

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Does it apply to you when when Christ said, "One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."

If so have you done it?

Even if anyone did sell everything it would never bring him any closer to God.

It is vital that we understand that the Old and New Covenant can NOT be mixed.

I now live daily enjoying Christ Himself within me under the New Covenant and I am no longer concerned with the old at all.


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Sree


Does it apply to you when when Christ said, "One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."

If so have you done it?

Even if anyone did sell everything it would never bring him any closer to God.

Those words were addressed to the rich young man, it was not addressed to everyone. If Jesus had told this as a teaching then we must obey it. But he did not.

The verse you quoted itself contradicts your theology, this young man said he kept all the law and Jesus did not deny it. If Jesus was preaching Old Covenant then he should have told him you will inherit the kingdom. But he told him to take up the cross and follow him. This is new covenant. Where is taking up the cross told in Old Covenant? Show me one reference of it if you can.

I am posting my simple question again, if Jesus preached old covenant and lived in that then why is he asking me to follow him? Indirectly it means follow old covenant like how I did. How is it possible? Why then is Apostle Paul (who according to you is new covenant man) is saying Follow me as I follow Christ? See if your theology cannot answer 1 question then it is wrong, that is it. Anything against the word of God is wrong.

Jesus all his 33.5 years lived the life showing us God (John 14:9), lets not argue on what kind of life it is. It is the life of God, completely pleasing him and completely showing the glory of God to mankind. It was possible by Jesus because he was filled by the Holy Spirit and Jesus was obedient to the Spirit even to the point of death. No one in Old Covenant was able to do it. But in New Covenant starting with Jesus many like Apostles were able to do it. Any believer can do the same, if he truly believes in God. This is simple Gospel, unmasked by any manmade theology. Why is it so tough to believe and why should man try to add or remove things from it?

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I think Tuc is rightly calling us to rethink our paradyne. If the New Covenant be Jesus in us the hope of glory. Then I for one need to take a closer look at this.

I used to be in Presbyterianism. They teach an everlasting covenant to justify infant baptism. Even a casual reading of Hebrews would refute that idea. The scrputures do teach that there were two covenants . One was made with Israel. That would be the Old Testament. Tbe other was made for the church. That would be the New Testament.

Just my understanding at this point.

Bearmaster.

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Those words were addressed to the rich young man, it was not addressed to everyone. If Jesus had told this as a teaching then we must obey it. But he did not.

That is exactly what I am saying. Many things that Christ spoke were only for the Jews who were under the law. They where not addressed to everyone.

Do you believe that if the rich young ruler would have sold all that he had, that he would have eternal life?

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Sree


I think Tuc is rightly calling us to rethink our paradyne. If the New Covenant be Jesus in us the hope of glory. Then I for one need to take a closer look at this.

There is nothing right in this kind of thinking. Such wrong theology will make you ignore the teachings of Jesus as Old Covenant. The standard preached and kept by Jesus is much higher than that of any old covenant teaching or living. How can this be reduced to lower standard old covenant?

I agree that What apostle Paul says to Colossians, that Christ in you is the hope of Glory. This is the specialty of New Covenant, to have Christ in us. How can a physical body of Christ live in us? It is the Spirit of Christ that Paul is referring to which is the Holy Spirit. So Holy Spirit living in us to power us to do the will of God is the hope of our Glory.

Now lets go back to the life of Jesus, was he filled with the Holy Spirit? Yes, the same Apostle Paul tells to Colossians that it is good pleasure for the Spirit to dwell in Jesus. Also John 3 tells us that Jesus received the Holy Spirit and it reminded in him all his life. Now if you combine both the facts, what kind of life did Jesus live? New Covenant life because he was full of the spirit.

Now why does the Bible say that new covenant was established through the blood of Jesus? Because we were originally sinners and fallen short of Glory, The Holy Spirit cannot live inside us because our ways are against God. Now when the blood of Jesus cleanses a believer then he is eligible or qualified for the Spirit to live in him. Jesus did not sin in his life hence he did not need the blood or any other means to cleanse his sin for the Spirit to dwell in him. He lived the New Covenant life as an example to us. That is why he is our elder brother in faith, a forerunner (who ran ahead of us), someone who entered into the veil before us.

Now why do people cannot see this truth and run away from it in the name of Theology? Because New Covenant life and standard shown by Jesus is very high. These people cannot live it nor are the interested to live it. Hence they called it an old covenant so that they can escape from it. If you look into their life there will be shameful testimony like Divorce, immorality etc. They are blinds leading blinds.

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Sree


That is exactly what I am saying. Many things that Christ spoke were only for the Jews who were under the law. They where not addressed to everyone.

Sorry to say, this is the dumbest argument I have ever heard. Just because one word was addressed to someone else does not mean everything was addressed to others and not us.

Then according to your logic John 3:16 should be addressed only to Nicodemus and not to us. Why do you guys use this alone saying it is complete Gospel?
You still cannot answer my question 'how can Jesus ask us to follow him? why is Apostle Paul asking us to follow him?'
Neither you nor the guy who wrote the orginial article can answer this.

C
Croref

I believe there are many who claim His Name by some traditional method like the sinners prayer that, if He could be heard, we might hear Jesus say these words: "no" _ you are not ready to have a covenant relationship with Me". "Though I call you, I cannot yet chose you".

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Croref

by Sree on 2012/11/15 12:30:36


That is exactly what I am saying. Many things that Christ spoke were only for the Jews who were under the law. They where not addressed to everyone.

Preach it, Bro.! "ALL SCRIPTURE is given for reprove and correction"__I think that was written somewhere in the NT.

T
twayneb

It is important, I think, that we answer some basic questions about the old and new covenants. The first being, what was the purpose of the two covenants?

Gal 3:19 tells us that the law, the first covenant, was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made. That seed, of course, was Christ and it is the seed that Paul says is the one through whom all nations should be blessed. But the law was added first because of sin and second until Christ should come. The significance of this is that Christ was the one who brought a new and living way, a better covenant.

Which begs the second question. What is the nature of the two covenants? The law was a fleshly covenant. It was symbolized in the flesh (circumcision) and it was a covenant of flesh in that it was composed of carnal ordinances (Heb. 9:10). Since the ordinances were carnal, the keeping of the ordinances relied upon the flesh of man. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh (Rom. 8:3). Paul even compares the law with Hagar and Ishmael, and the new covenant to the promised seed Isaac. (Gal. 4). This is done to demonstrate that the law is like the child of the flesh, but the new covenant is of the spirit.

The writer of Hebrews is crystal clear in his explicit statement that the law has been done away with because of its weakness (reference Paul in Romans 8) and unprofitablenes (reference Gal. chapters 2 and 3). By the way, his treatment of this one subject is one of the reasons I feel Paul probably wrote Hebrews.

So, to paint a broad picture that puts all of this together...Man's sin was growing greater and greater. God, because of the transgressions, puts a restraint on sin, the carnal ordinances of the law along with their accompanying consequences. This was a temporary covenant that was in place until the time of the coming of the promised seed, Jesus.

I might also add that God, in His amazing ways, painted a very vivid picture with the law as well as we have been able to see, within the ordinances, types and shadows of the new covenant that was coming. This is why Paul says that the new covenant was witness by both the law and the prophets.

Blessings.

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sermonindex

2 Timothy 3:16 says all scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. But does that impky all scripture is binding upon the believer?

We know the Old Testament us the word of God. There is ni denying that. But because the Old Testament is the word of God. Is the believer under the New Covenant bound to the commands of tbe Old Covenant? I would answer no. The Old Covenant with its laws and commands were given to Israel. They were a shadow prefiguring the Christ to come.

For us, indselt by the Holy Spirit, our covenant is found in tbe New Testament. This covenant is for his bride tbe church. The testator, tbe administrator, indeed tbe bridegroom is Jesus himself. Thus we follow his commands and directions as revealed by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament.

Can a New Covenant believer look to the Old Testament for godly example in Christ like living. Yes, I believe so. But let us remember the commands of the Old Testament were given to Israel. The New Covenant believer is guided by tbe Holy Spirit in the New Testament.

Bearmaster.

C
Croref

In capsule form: The old covenant was weak because the righteousness of it was limited to the promise of salvation __weak because flesh was weak in providing what was needed to fulfill the promise. In this regard, God took up what was lacking to the extent He could and paradise could only be that extent until in the "fullness of times", enter the sinless Flesh of Jesus to perform what otherwise could not ever be but and unfulfilled promise.. The basis upon which the new covenant is built goes by the name, "Redemption".

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sermonindex

Again I think Tuc is raising some interesting observations. Unlike a book written by a single author The Bible was written by many people over several hundred tears. For sure they were inspired by God. But the Bible was reflecting God's unfolding truth as it culminated in the revelation of his Son.

I think we see this in the gospels. There is a transition unfolding in the ministry of Jesus which would close out the Old Covenant and bring in tbe New. The people Jesus was speaking to in the gospels, particularly in Mathew were the Jews. So it would make sense that some of his statements would apply to those under the law.

For an example, in Mathew 23:7 Jesus tells his disciples that the Pharisees and the teachers of the law sit at Moses feet. He tells his disciples to obey them. But do not do what they do. This is clearly implying those Jewish disciples of Jesus were to obey the Jewish teachers of the law until the Spirit was given.

Does the above apply to tbe believer under the completed New Covenant. No. But I see Jesus teaching his disciples in a time of transition between the covenants.

Again ny understanding at this point.

Bearmaster.

C
Croref

by bearmaster on 2012/11/15 13:33:56

Again I think Tuc is raising some interesting observations. Unlike a book written by a single author The Bible was written by many people over several hundred tears. For sure they were inspired by God. But the Bible was reflecting God's unfolding truth as it culminated in the revelation of his Son.

I think we see this in the gospels. There is a transition unfolding in the ministry of Jesus which would close out the Old Covenant and bring in the New. The people Jesus was speaking to in the gospels, particularly in Mathew were the Jews.

To wit we can all say, "so what"? Who is the seed of Abraham but all who believe in Christ and come to Him having the faith of Abraham in doing so__having already lived under the law of conscience__which could do no more for the gentile then it did for the Jew except justify him?

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sermonindex

Those under tbe Old Covenant were saved by faith in the promise of a Messiah to come. But did they have the Spirit of Jesus within othem?
Was the law of Christ written on tbeir heart?

Bearmaster.

C
Croref

by bearmaster on 2012/11/15 15:27:06

Those under tbe Old Covenant were saved by faithtbe promise of a Messiah to come. But did they have the Spirit of Jesus within.m them?
Was the law of Christ written on tbeir heart?

Bearmaster.

Did they have the faith of Abraham? Yes! Did Abraham have the Spirit of Jesus within him. No. Did he have the law of Christ written on their heart? What law would that be?

I
InTheLight

Jesus Christ lived under and taught the the Old Covenant.
Most of His teachings were specifically directed to the Jews who were under the law at that time.

So then are the teachings of Jesus as found in the four gospels not for the church of today other than to be a historical curiosity?

You say "most of His teachings", care to be more specific? Which ones were and which ones were not specifically directed towards the Jews?

In Christ,

Ron

J
jimp

hi, why do we jump to single planed thought conclusions. He said let there be light in gen. do wd have light today? but the world turned to darkness at His death and the beginning of the new covenant.the words of Jesus are spirit and eternal but He lived under the old covenant. the new is in His flesh;risen.jimp

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ArtB

Prior to His crucifixion, Jesus exlusively taught only the The Mosaic Covenant, And this, only to His fellow Jews. Jesus did not seek out Gentiles for salvation prior to His Crucifixion. He referred to the Gentiles as dogs who are unworthy of eating the bread God prepared for His people - The Jews.

Jesus, as the true Chief Rabbi of Israel, His Sermon on the Mount given and meant only to His fellow Jews, was a very brilliant Sermon on the right heart and mental attitude and approach for keeping the Mosaic Law. Their leadership turned Jesus over to the Romans for Crucifixion.

Pontius Pilate offered Jesus to be pardoned.

They responded by freeing a well known criminal named Barabbas over Jesus for who the Roman Governor would pardon. Jesus was then handed over to the Romans for Crucifixion. Just before Jesus died, Jesus spoke one word "TeTelestia" meaning: "it has been and will for ever remain finished." Jesus did not only finish the work but it never needs repeating or improvement."

What does this mean to us Christians?

Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law, keeping every commandment of the Mosaic Law applicable to Him. In so doing, upon His death, Zechariah 11: 7-14 was fulfilled. God annihilates the Mosaic Covenant He made with His People, the People of the Exodus and their descendants.

Upon Jesus ressurection, Jesus openly and plainly reveals the New Covenant to His Apostles and other faithful followers who believe Jesus and accept the 'FREE GIFT' OF LIFE ETERNALLY AND ABUNDANT - The New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

This fact is affirmed in our New Testament:

Heb 5:5-10
5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him,

"YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU";

just as He says also in another passage,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. NASU

AND:

Heb 6:13-7:22
For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, " I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU." 15 And so, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. 16 For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. 17 In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, 20 where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

[Hebrews 7]

7:1 Melchizedek's Priesthood Like Christ's

1. For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

4. Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils. 5 And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest's office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham. But the one whose genealogy is not traced from them collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises. But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater. In this case mortal men receive tithes, but in that case one receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives on. And, so to speak, through Abraham even Levi, who received tithes, paid tithes, for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVERACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. And inasmuch as it was not without an oath (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORNAND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. NASU

Scripture is very clear on this. We Christians are not under the Mosaic Law, But we are under the New Laws of the New Covenant. Before one goes to court, one ought to know what laws are apllicable.

Paul warns in Galatians that anyone who places themself back under the Mosaic Law voids what Christ has done for them and remain accursed under the Mosaic Law.

Gal 3

1. You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

10. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" — in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Intent of the Law

15. Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, " And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

15. Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. NASU

WORDS MEAN SOMETHING. A Christian ought to know what Christianity is. It is a completely different way of living before God. God saves us, we do not save ourselves. We now have daily fellowship God. It is God who transforms us to one who does the good He created us to do, we do not transform ourselves. All we need to do is to continually be in His presence, and walking with Him and talking with Him, trusting Him, and believing what He actually did say through His word.


[deleted exact copy of above. but, IMO, it is probably worth reading twice :)]

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ArtB

Zec 11: 1-6 predicts the destruction of Herods' Temple in 70 AD

Zech 11:7-14 [God annihilates the Mosaic Covenant]

7 So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh." I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 1So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD.

I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD. Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. NASU

The only bi-lateral Covenant God gave to His peoples in the OT is the Mosaic Laws.

Zecariah 12 Has been occuring since 1947, the end of the Diaspora. And it may be very near when Israel is attacked, and they will receive Jesus as their true Messiah.

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sermonindex

Soundds like what I am picking up in the last few post is we are under the New Covenant of Christ. And nit tbe Old Covenant of Mises.

Bearmaster.
.

C
Croref

Re: Which Covenant Did Jesus Teach?
by ArtB on 2012/11/15 19:03:09


"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."


. . proving Jesus was of no OT law. Though He referred to it in instances, never taught it.

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sermonindex

Croref, you write:

. . proving Jesus was of no OT law. Though He referred to it in instances, never taught it.


well didnt Jesus speak of the two Royal Commandments?

"“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:36-40

there are other Scriptural citations i could give, but in the Holy Spirit, i dont think of a "fence line" of seperation, Old VERSUS New, as God has shown my heart, i think of it all as a continuum, God's Covenant with us, an unfolding Covenant.......a Better Covenant...indeed "new" as outlined in Jeremiah's "Book of Consolation", chapters 30-33, specifically outlined, starting in Jeremiah 31:31-35.

my heart also soars in Acts, when certain men, who were clinging to traditions, they knew Messiah, but confused Gentiles by insisting on physical circumsion, so the Jerusalem Council wrote those very concise instructions in the letter to be delivered north to Antioch.

i'm just curious, do you adhere to "replacement theology" croref?

i know its off topic, i'm just curious.

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Croref

by HezWelling on 2012/11/16 3:23:27

Croref, you write:

. . proving Jesus was of no OT law. Though He referred to it in instances, never taught it.


well didnt Jesus speak of the two Royal Commandments?

Thank you HezWelling and G'morning.

Yes, Jesus did but what else did He say in that regard? Did He not say the whole law was wrapped up in those two __that which He became? So we can most accurately say that Jesus now is the Law in Divine human flesh where keeping it has more to do with our motivation than any outward creedal demonstration. Given that His flesh "clothed" Deity, we can understand that the whole Government of God was in Him for which the Church is given to express as individuals and corporately.

Sidenote: One who is born again possesses the same. The challenge presented him is no different than that presented Jesus, i.e., protecting that which protects us__protecting that which seals us to Himself. That is part and parcel of being in union with God__and by the grace of God, is a learning process whereby a child of the Father is brought unto Glory. In this process of learning to "know the Father", will I learn the aim in my life is His, not mine. cf John 17:3

Chambers. Nov 10 "My utmost for his highest"


I'm just curious, do you adhere to "replacement theology" croref?

i know its off topic, i'm just curious.

If I properly understand what the grafting in means, No, not in the least.

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sermonindex

Bless God!

its a good and true thing, that when i was reading your response, my soul was canted towards one of the "Mountaintops" of the Gospel, which is the High Priestly Prayer of Jesus in John 17....and you "cf'ed" a part of it.

When i gaze out and look at the land, and see the many many denominations, and then consider that fact against Jesus' prayer in John 17, my heart breaks...just breaks.

then one i suppose could tar me, 'ecumenical', which would not be the truth where my heart lay in the Holy Spirit.

my heart breaks, because i think of "liturgy", man's traditions, non-canonical of course, some idolatry thats crept its way in.......and on the other side, is what was once called The Way, a simple Faith, ROOTED IN MESSIAH JESUS, and Him crucified, raised from the dead, seated at the Right Hand of God, Whose Blood is wholly sufficient to cleanse all sin, where prayer and praise is our humble communication with the Father, where Jesus lives in usand thru our varied attributes as followers of Him, we become the Body of Messiah.

One Body.....not hundreds of competing "religious institutions"....

i was just reading of the riot in Ephesus, where the silversmiths went mad in their greed and lust for money, and framed this greed as being zealous to protect the "honor of artemis"...and i see dread parralels to this very day.

One Body....a Simple Faith...The Way.

oh, my heart just breaks. i could write more, but its just words. However i rest secure in the Faith, that God is God, and all that is wrong and 'off', will be made Right.

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Croref

by HezWelling on 2012/11/16 6:05:43

Bless God!

its a good and true thing, that when i was reading your response, my soul was canted towards one of the "Mountaintops" of the Gospel, which is the High Priestly Prayer of Jesus in John 17....and you "cf'ed" a part of it.

Amen, My Brother! Once again, I Thank you. Keep on with the "diligence". ))!

I edited my post. You may wish to re-read it for more clarity for you to rejoice even more.

Lov'in Jesus.

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ArtB

Croref wrote ". . proving Jesus was of no OT law. Though He referred to it in instances, never taught it."

Actually, Jesus, prior to his ressurection, lived under the Mosaic Law, He taught God's people to keep the Mosaic Law and encouraged them to keep it with the right heart to do so. And Jesus taught them to keep the Mosaic Law, for it would have been sin for Jesus to teach them not to keep the Mosaic Covenant.

Jesus never sought gentiles for salvation prior to His death. His mission was to teach and encourage His fellow Jews on how to keep the Mosaic Law. Jesus never taught the New Covenant prior to His death, but He did give a few clues in His parables and speeches.

Had Jesus taught the New Covenant prior to His death, Jesus would have violated the Mosaic Covenant. At best, Jesus hinted about a New Covenant.

His mission was to keep the entire Mosaic Law, which He did up to His death. But then a strange thing happened, instead of receiving the many blessings for keeping the Mosaic Law, JESUS was crucified. Jesus chose to be the PERFECT PASCHAL LAMB OF GOD WHOSE BLOOD WASHES AWAY ALL THE SINS OF ALL, WHO ACCEPT THIS BLOOD ATONEMENT AS WASHING AWAY ALL THEIR SINS, FOR ALL TIME. No further blood sacfrices are needed annually to redeem us from our sins, Jesus's blood is atonement for all our sins for all time to all who receive Him and believes Him.

Jesus took upon Himself the punishment due us for our sins, we who believe in Him, His blood washed away all sins to all who receive this free gift and call upon His name, we whom received the indwelling Holy Spirit whom works in us daily that we may truly love one another, and to love even those who reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. Love them, but not partake in their rebellion from God.

Even Jesus Disciples were at a loss when Jesus died. They did not understand the meaning of Jesus death, and they were scared. But upon His ressurection, Jesus sought His disciples and explained to them who He really is and opened up their minds to the teachings of the OT Scriptures pertaining to His mission, and the New Covenat they now have in Jesus, that salvation is through Believing Him as the Messiah and their Paschal lamb, Who accomplished on the cross, His atoning innocent blood having been shed on our behalf, for all sins of all who believe Him and accept the Blood as washing away their sins for all time.

Upon His ascension into Heaven, on the very anniversery of the day Moses received the Law we call the Mosaic Law, God sent the Holy Spirit to indwell all who accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and accept Jesus blood shed on the cross as washing away all their sins for all time, thereby we recieve the indwelling Holy Spirit, our Helper and comforter daily in our walk with walk with God, Whom helps transform our very nature that we may be genuinely fruitful, doing the good God created us to do, in love and joy.

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Croref

by ArtB on 2012/11/16 7:09:58

Croref wrote ". . proving Jesus was of no OT law. Though He referred to it in instances, never taught it."

Actually, Jesus, prior to his ressurection, lived under the Mosaic Law, He taught God's people how to keep the Mosaic Law. Jesus never sought gentiles, His mission was to teach encourage His fellow Jews How to keep the Mosaic Law. Jesus never taught the New Covenant prior to His death, but He did give a few clues in His parables and speeches.

Had Jesus taught the New Covenant prior to His death, Jesus would have violated the Mosaic Covenant. At best, Jesus hinted about a New Covenant.

No offense but, I do not wish to engage what I consider an extremely error ridden mindset. I will await the opinion of others. Thank You.

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passerby

Can anyone help me find passages in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John about the Lord Jesus teaching old or new covenant.

P
passerby

Did He re really teach about covenants?

If one will read the four gospels for the first time without a pre-conceived theological framework, will he read about the new covenant or old covenant?

Or_ simply about mercy, grace, love of God, humility before God, the Lordship and diety of Christ, His authority or Him being above the 'Law', the way of salvation by believing and following Him, the coming great judgment, the resurrection of the dead, the eternal, life, and the eternal damnation.

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brothagary

didnt jesus say at the last supper this is the blood of the new covernt which is shed for you

check it out

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passerby

Indeed, one concept that will burn ones heart is His authority and His sovereignty even above the law that when one malefactor that was crucified with Him pleaded:

" And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:42-43).

The Lord Jesus is our Salvation, in Him and through Him alone.

B
brothagary

luke 22.20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you

mark 14 ;24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many

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Croref

“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: . . . . ” Is there a law for these traits that folk, on both sides of the cross, manifested?

see Gal5:22


J
jimp

dear passerby,you do not teach covenants you establish them and live under them. Jesus cut the covenant in His flesh for God and man. dr. livingston was in africa and he was brought before a great cheif. the cheif saw dr livingston's sheep and goats and told him to give them to him and he would give them his staff.dr. livingston struggled but gave up the animals and the cheif his stick. then the cheif cut both of themin the wrist area with a knife and grasped dr. livingstonshand so that the blood would mix. the next village dr. livingston went to ;the people saw the staff and bowed down to him and obeyed his every command to sit and listen.almost all were converted. that stick and the covenant he cut with that cheif opened up africa to the gospel of Jesus.jimp when they saw the stick they saw the cheif.

T
twayneb

2Ti 3:16-17
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
(17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Jesus did not come to teach one covenant or another. He came to complete the first and usher in the second. He was the pivot point of history. He came as the second Adam to destroy the power of sin through the flesh offering to man a new and living way through the spirit.

Obviously the only scripture that was written down at the time Jesus was on the earth was the old testament scriptures. As such, Jesus quoted and used these scriptures exclusively. None of what we know as the new testament was extant at the time. Yet He demonstrated Himself in those scriptures. Remember when He stood in the synagogue and claimed to be the Messiah? (Luke 4:18)

And He proclaimed clearly that His purpose was to usher in a new and better covenant.

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Jesus was well taught in scripture and was anointed by God with wisdom and understanding. Paul the Apostle was well versed in scripture having been taught in the school of Gamaliel. In this sense Paul was a Rabbinical scholar, a Pharisee of Pharisees. Both Jesus and Paul said that the law and the prophets (the old testament scriptures) bore witness to the coming of the Messiah to usher in the new covenant. For just one example, see Jeremiah 31:33.

I believe if we take a step or two back and look at the broad picture, we can see that it is not so much about whether Jesus' teachings seem to reflect the jots and tittles of one covenant or the other, but rather that Jesus purpose was to bring to a conclusion the old so that He might usher in the new.

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Croref

by twayneb on 2012/11/17 6:25:54


I believe if we take a step or two back and look at the broad picture, we can see that it is not so much about whether Jesus' teachings seem to reflect the jots and tittles of one covenant or the other, but rather that Jesus purpose was to bring to a conclusion the old so that He might usher in the new.

And Jesus, being the 'handshake' between God and man, did just that.

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ArtB

by ArtB on 2012/11/16 7:09:58

Croref wrote ". . proving Jesus was of no OT law. Though He referred to it in instances, never taught it."

I, ArtB replied: "Actually, Jesus, prior to his ressurection, lived under the Mosaic Law, He taught God's people how to keep the Mosaic Law. Jesus never sought gentiles, His mission was to teach encourage His fellow Jews How to keep the Mosaic Law. Jesus never taught the New Covenant prior to His death, but He did give a few clues in His parables and speeches.

Had Jesus taught the New Covenant prior to His death, Jesus would have violated the Mosaic Covenant. At best, Jesus hinted about a New Covenant."

To which Croref replied "No offense but, I do not wish to engage what I consider an extremely error ridden mindset. I will await the opinion of others. Thank You."

BTW, I am not in anyway offended by your post.

However:

twayneb on 2012/11/17 6:25:54 wrote: "I believe if we take a step or two back and look at the broad picture, we can see that it is not so much about whether Jesus' teachings seem to reflect the jots and tittles of one covenant or the other, but rather that Jesus purpose was to bring to a conclusion the old so that He might usher in the new."

Replying to Twayne B, Croref wrote: "And Jesus, being the 'handshake' between God and man, did just that."

My question to you Croref. How is it that you agree with TwayneB's statement, and disagree with my statement, which is similar to Twayne B's statement?

In other words, exactly why did you reply to my post,as you did? What is it that you disagree with what I wrote?

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Croref

by ArtB on 2012/11/17 21:25:25

by ArtB on 2012/11/16 7:09:58

Croref wrote ". . proving Jesus was of no OT law. Though He referred to it in instances, never taught it.""

My question to you Croref. How is it that you agree with TwayneB's statement, and disagree with my statement, which is similar to Twayne B's statement?

In other words, exactly why did you reply to my post,as you did? What is it that you disagree with what I wrote?

Thank you Artb!

You wrote this to which I disagreed: "Actually, Jesus, prior to his resurrection, lived under the Mosaic Law, He taught God's people how to keep the Mosaic Law."

My reply: "Jesus was of no OT law. Though He referred to it in instances, never taught it."

The Law was given to the world [Israel], the flesh of man, to obey for blessings and favor with God and by faith [not the faith of God but of man] could it only be accomplished. Jesus was born under the law and kept it and though He was OF the law, because it was righteous, never taught it but fulfilled it by His life and death. By His life, He was above the Law and taught the whole government of God which the OT law was but a type that they might see Him in it.

To those who were righteous His main thrust was the Kingdom and new birth; the ushering in of a new creation with a new covenant that they might enter for the satisfaction of the promise given them of God spoken of in the OT. For the sinner it was the exposing of their rebelliousness that they might repent and believe that redemption and the new covenant might be made affective in their lives as well. cf Matthew 20 to see something that might help for our understanding__and more. ))


S
sermonindex

Saints at this point I would ask does it really matter which covenant Jesus was teachibg? Tbe thong is we are in the New Covenant which was ratified by his death. This is the Covenant that Jeremiah wrote about. Tbis is the covenant Joel spoke about with the coming of the Holy Spirit. This is the covenant we celebrate in tbe Lord's supper. This is the New Covenant we live in. Halleujah!!

Bearmaster.

S
sermonindex

YES!! It is imperative to be able to discern the Old Covenant from the new.

The fact is that if we don't rightly divide the covenants, we will end very frustrated and confused.

Example: Do you believe your heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things? If you do, its' because you've failed to "rightly divide the word."

God had Jeremiah tell the people that "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" (Jeremiah 17:9) but in Romans 5:5 Paul said that "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts." Which is true? They both are! It was true when Jeremiah said it to those to whom He spoke in the Old Covenant and Paul's words are true for we who live under the New Covenant!

Do you see the confusion that happens when we fail to make the distinction between the covenants? There are many biblical texts like that. When we read the Bible, we need to ask ourselves, "Who is speaking? To whom is he speaking? When is He speaking?" These are basic questions that will settle a lot of confusion in reading the Bible.

C
Croref

by tuc on 2012/11/18 8:34:17

Hey! tuc! Covenants have nothing to do with all that!!

S
sermonindex

Sure they do.

The New Covenant gives a clean new heart.

The old only covered sin. The new completely removes sin.

The old could never remove guilt and shame. The new makes one righteous and perfect.

The old could never never make you righteous, holy, or pure.

The new gives us the very life of Christ who dwells and abides with in us.

The old was faulty - the new is faultless.

Why would I even consider to take teaching from the Old Covenant and attempt to apply them to myself?

Gal. 2:20-21,"I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

This was NOT possible under the old.


C
Croref

it still has nothing to with covenants.

S
sermonindex

Without the New Covenant everyone would still be under the bondage of sin and without any hope whatsoever. Everyone's heart would be deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.

C
Croref

by tuc on 2012/11/18 11:56:56

Without the New Covenant everyone would still be under the bondage of sin and without any hope whatsoever. Everyone's heart would be deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.

Jesus is the new covenant!

S
sermonindex

Without Jesus Christ everyone would still be under the bondage of sin and without any hope whatsoever. Everyone's heart would be deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.

Jesus is alive in me and I abide in Him.

C
Croref

I understand__believe me, I do.

J
jimp

hi, one thing that this ton of writings proves is that christians have very little knowlege of what covenant is
jimp

J
jimp

hi, if ayoung lad and a young lass remain pure and fall in love or have an arranged marriage they enter into a covenant with each other upon consumation when their fluids mix and they become one.the go therefore and live under this covenant until death do they part. this is why it is so wicked to have any sex out of marriage(you become a covenant breaker)... when Jesus went to the cross He cut this same covenant for God and man in His flesh and when we believe into Him,we become one flesh with Him.you do not teach a covenant you live in a covenant and when you abide you will abound.jimp

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