Prayer for Israel

This was sent to me today regarding the urgent need to pray for Israel, from someone who is living there now.
(I got it a day late)

"It seems that there will either be a ground offensive into Gaza (maybe, tonight), or the beginning of negotiations for a cease-fire. The next 24-48 hours are critical and your prayers are appreciated.

There are 16,000 reservists who are standing by on the Gaza border ready for a ground offensive. There are other reservists who have been sent into southern communities to assess building and home damages; to help medical teams; and to make sure civilians in need are provided refuge..

Israel's Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, has received cabinet approval for a call-up of 75,000 reservists. But, as far as we can tell, that number has not been reached yet.

There are many young believers in the IDF right now, some of whom are in combat units. Others are standing by in the reserves. Your prayers are appreciated.

Hamas is not allowing at least 22 foreign nationals to leave the Gaza Strip and enter Israel. This includes at least 18 members of the media. It also includes medical personnel. Pray that these people are released soon and without any harm done to them."

We are admonished to pray for Israel: Psalm 122:6

I have been praying Israel for many years, and am increasing that in this time. The media is so biased towards them.

We're often reminded to pray for Israel, but (to our shame) it's very rare to hear a call to pray for the Palestinians.

"...My house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."

Allan

Yes, I agree. Both need prayer. The Palestinians are used as pons in all of this. I am quoting a friend below:

"Hamas is to blame for this. They and a great deal of the Arab population want the destruction of Israel regardless of how much land Israel would give up. The West bank Palestinians are not sending rockets into Israel and Israel is not sending rockets at them. Both Hesbullah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza purposely use people who are innocent as shields. The people of Gaza get electricity and water from Israel even though they keep shelling Israel and Israel even dropped hundreds of Arabic leaflets to warn the people to stay away from the missile launchers so they would be safe when Israel destroyed the launchers. Israel withdrew from Gaza years ago and even gave the people a green house to help them grow food but those people destroyed it and Hamas has ruined the water supply which Israel used to keep at proper health levels for the people of Gaza. Israel even used to allow those people to come work in Israel and make good money when no one else would help them until they had to close off the inflow of people due to the great amount of hostility and threat to the safety of Israel. Israel also allows victims of harm to be transferred to their hospitals for care which is amazingly kind considering they would not be offered the same kindness if the shoe was on the other foot."

So, there is much that the press does not report. We only know part of the issue. If our government does not back Israel, as history has proven, it will have bad consequences. As God's word says: " I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." Genesis 12:3

I am in complete agreement with you. May God use this strife to sweep many into His kingdom. Jew and Gentile.

What doesn't get talked about much is the reason this initial conflict began. Israel killed a leading Hamas figure who was supposedly negotiating a peace deal. Whether or not that would have happened is irrelevant. The killing of him has errupted into this mess again and then we have the Gaza situation. I have heard that it is the most densely populated area on earth and I have also heard that it is similar to a concentration camp because people are only allowed to go to certain places and most people are in the poverty level or below. Give this situation why should be be supporting Israel more than the Palestinians given how Gaza is laid out and Israel killed this Hamas leader?

Sometimes I think of the Iranian leader when he talks about 12th imam coming back when I see Christians pushing pro Israel stuff because of the bible when sometimes Israel seems to be creating this whole conflict.

What do you think?

I confess that I am not extreemly informed on everything over there. Not to mention that it is hard to trust any accounts from the press. Thats what makes this situation so complicated and it does give me pause when the church so blindly supports a Christ forsaking nation. But to say that Hammas was trying to negotiate a peace deal is very hard to believe given their history. There is no excuse to target innocent civilians with rockets and terror.

HezWelling - you are correct IMHO

As for praying for the Palestinians, I can pray for the pawns of satan but not for his followers. I pray for the children who are raised to hate, Better to spend my energy to pray for the Saints, those God has given to our Lord Jesus. I feel if I pray for them I am including any of that bunch who will convert.

WS

by DEADn on 2012/11/19 8:14:13 Give this situation why should be be supporting Israel more than the Palestinians given how Gaza is laid out and Israel killed this Hamas leader?

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

If we want God’s blessings on ourselves and on the rest of the world, we should ALWAYS support Israel, and stand against any of Israel’s enemies! The bloodthirsty killers that are fighting them today are doing the same as Pharoah, Amalek, Haman, Hitler, and MANY others down through history whose desire was to exterminate the Jews, but every time, instead of the Jews getting exterminated, their enemies got exterminated by God! The Jews have suffered greatly down through History because they remind the world that there is a God in Israel who has kept them in existence and will never cease to and will judge all of His creation by His law.

Do you want God’s blessing on your life, or do you want God’s curse upon your life? If you listen to modern media, and choose not to support Israel, you inherit God’s curse.

Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

Do you want to prosper, or to perish? Whether or not you believe God’s Word, these truths will happen in your life. They have always happened, and will never cease to.

"it does give me pause when the church so blindly supports a Christ forsaking nation"

Just my 2 cents:

Because our God is a covenant keeping God. HE is faithful even when they (or we) are not. He made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob concerning the land and the people. HE has not changed.

And He will bless those who bless them and curse those who curse them.

Have you read Zephaniah recently? These verses from the second chapter read like today's news. Yes, they speak of the end time which we seem nearing at warp speed.

Zephaniah 2:4-11
4 For Gaza will be abandoned
And Ashkelon a desolation;
Ashdod will be driven out at noon
And Ekron will be uprooted.

5 Woe to the inhabitants of the seacoast,
The nation of the Cherethites!
The word of the LORD is against you,
O Canaan, land of the Philistines;
And I will destroy you
So that there will be no inhabitant.

6 So the seacoast will be pastures,
With caves for shepherds and folds for flocks.

7 And the coast will be
For the remnant of the house of Judah,
They will pasture on it.
In the houses of Ashkelon they will lie down at evening;
For the LORD their God will care for them
And restore their fortune.

8 “I have heard the taunting of Moab
And the revilings of the sons of Ammon,
With which they have taunted My people
And become arrogant against their territory.

9 “Therefore, as I live,” declares the LORD of hosts,
The God of Israel,
“Surely Moab will be like Sodom
And the sons of Ammon like Gomorrah—
A place possessed by nettles and salt pits,
And a perpetual desolation.
The remnant of My people will plunder them
And the remainder of My nation will inherit them.”

10 This they will have in return for their pride, because they have taunted and become arrogant against the people of the LORD of hosts. 11 The LORD will be terrifying to them, for He will starve all the gods of the earth; and all the coastlands of the nations will bow down to Him, everyone from his own place.

We should pray for their enemies (as we should pray for our own) that their eyes would be opened and that they would be granted repentance. If they repent they will no longer wish evil upon Israel.

If we pray for peace in Israel we are gratifying our heavenly Father.

All glory be to Him who sits upon the throne and unto the Lamb.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

If we want God’s blessings on ourselves and on the rest of the world, we should ALWAYS support Israel, and stand against any of Israel’s enemies! The bloodthirsty killers that are fighting them today are doing the same as Pharoah, Amalek, Haman, Hitler, and MANY others down through history whose desire was to exterminate the Jews, but every time, instead of the Jews getting exterminated, their enemies got exterminated by God! The Jews have suffered greatly down through History because they remind the world that there is a God in Israel who has kept them in existence and will never cease to and will judge all of His creation by His law.

Do you want God’s blessing on your life, or do you want God’s curse upon your life? If you listen to modern media, and choose not to support Israel, you inherit God’s curse.

Psa 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

Do you want to prosper, or to perish? Whether or not you believe God’s Word, these truths will happen in your life. They have always happened, and will never cease to.

This seems to rub me the wrong way. I realize in the past that Hamas has started much of this conflict but has Israel ever started any incidents? Are we to support Israel no matter what they do because THEY are Israel?

No, if I don't support Israel then I will be cursed and not have the blessing of God? Or I will perish? Does this apply across the board whether a person is a Christian or not? How does that apply to absolute truth?

Israel has the right to defend itself but is Israel totally guiltless in this conflict? I realize Theology is the big link that puts this together but what happens when Theology and righteous conflict one another? What happens if Israel, in their fight with Hamas, blows Gaza off the map. Does Gaza become one of those tribes that Israel killed because God told them to possess the land? And then we will bless Israel for doing a good deed?

Still trying to figure out this blessing or perish thing for those pro and against Israel. How does that work exactly? I don't side either way so what would that mean?

I to have questions about the blessing Israel and cursing Israel quote that is constently used. I just never seemed to understand what it means for the church to bless Israel. Who exactly are we blessing. The nation, Jews, is it the same?
I am not trying to offend or cause discension. I seriously do not understand. Are we never to be critical of Israel even when what they may be doing is immoral? It seems to me that we are so afraid of offending Jewish people that we tend to overlook their sin at times.
As for this current conflict I have my serious doubts that Hamas desires peace. My suppicion is the Palestinians are living so pourly is because their leaders can use it for their advantage.

Timg said, "I to have questions about the blessing Israel and cursing Israel quote that is constently used. I just never seemed to understand what it means for the church to bless Israel. Who exactly are we blessing. The nation, Jews, is it the same?" End quote

The answer to your questions lies in understanding what God has done in Christ and His new covenant. For one thing, He has "broken down the middle wall of partition" between Jew and Gentile" in order to "create of the two one new Man" (Eph. 2.14,15). Because of what God has accomplished in Christ, He sees no difference now between Jew and Gentile (Acts 19.9, Rom. 3.22, Rom. 10.12).

...But it's very difficult to speak of these things on a forum like this; feelings run very high, especially concerning this matter. We think we see, but oh, the need for Spirit-birthed revelation that removes the scales from our blind eyes.

There are some good resources out there on the true relationship between Israel and the church; a good start would be carefully reading (with an open heart) Ephesians Chapters Two and Three.

Meanwhile, let's continue to pray for Israel... and the Palestinians. (Satan would like to see them all destroyed, wouldn't he... and all men who were created in God's image, for that matter.)

Allan

Neil,

I appreciate you posting what is going on in Israel. To those of us who have only a casual interest in the nation, the conflicting reports we hear from the news media gets very confusing.

Thanks, Neil.

ginnyrose

I am praying for the peace of Jerusalem. Psalm 122:6

Even if we put aside the church-Israel issue and just look at the facts we should see this is NOT irrational agression by Israel. It is worth repeating Neil's remarks, which are clearly put.

"respectfully?.......i feel you dont have the timeline correct, the two weeks prior to the IDF's successful PRECISION strike on the military leader of Hamas, Hamas had been firing, everyday, anywhere from 5 to 30 missiles into southern Israel, they had been warned, "stop"...repeatedly...in fact, BEFORE the initial strike, the IDF sent out a "tweet", "if you are a senior Hamas leader, dont come aboveground".

As far as the "conditions" in Gaza, after Arik Sharon withdrew ALL settlement activity, he evicted 9,000 Israeli's in the process, the PA was "in charge" of Gaza...do you know Hamas did? Hamas WIPED OUT ALL PA leadership.....why did they do that? Because the PA was pursuing the "two state" framework, and Hamas, Hiz'bouallah, and even the Muslim brotherhood, in their charters, one of their objectives, is not peace, or co-existence with Israel, but Israel's destruction."

It is true that THOUSANDS (probably over 10,000) rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel since 2001 and these rockets were getting bigger and more sofisticated. So it is untrue to say that Israel initiated the current conflict. It has never stopped, it just never gets reported how many and how often rockets are being sent into the country. It's not a matter of taking sides (and it is true the vast majority of Palestinian citizens are innocent victims of the Hamas terrorists), but we need to consider the facts.

As I said before, any other nation if it was being continually attacked by rockets in this way would not hesitate to respond in a strong way. Muslim terrorist blew up the twin towers, so what did the USA do? Spend 12 years (so far) fighting to destroy the threat in Afganistan!

We have to ask ourselves why is it that the reporting of the conflict is always blamming Israel as the big bully who starts the fight, when the real facts are the opposite. It is not always the strongest that is the bully or the trouble maker. Sometimes someone small may start a fight in the hope that his big brothers will come in and help...this is what I think Hezbollah are doing.
There is a anti-Christ spirit in the world that distorts the truth and hates the fact that Israel is a nation again. We need to beware that we are not also naively influenced by this spirit.

What those who question Israel's actions never say, is what they should do. What is the answer if the agressor (Hamas) does not want peace?

I tend to agree with you Bearmaster. It seems that many in the church are to focused on an earthly kingdom for the nation of Israel. I have been raised in dispensational church, went to a private college that promoted a dispensational point of view and have spent a majority of my time in dispensational circles, but have yet to be conviced from scripture of the validity of this theology.
I could be wrong but I have yet to be convinced. And it has not been for a lack of trying.
That is why I ask the question "what does it mean to bless Israel?"
I realy want to know what they mean by that. Surely it means more than pushing "like" on facebook.
What I fear and see many times is the emphesis of the church to stress that the Jew is "God's chosen people" and neglecting to mention that without Christ they are destined to go to hell the same as the "worst gentile".
I believe that we are endagering the Jewish people with a false sence of security by telling them that because they are of the physical seed of Abraham, God will protect them.
Many times I hear people in the church call unsaved Jewish people "brother". This is a grave error at the least.
The religious leaders before the destruction of the temple ran there mistakenly thinking that God would rescue them.
This is the danger I feel with dispensationalism.
I know this is a touchy subject. That is why I usually stay away from it. But I think it is impotant for the church to consider what it really means to bless Israel.
Encouraging them to neglect their need for accepting the Messiah by not bringing it to the forefront of our message is a huge mistake at the least. Focusing on an earthly kingdom when not one of the apostles or Christ Himself did should atleast give us pause.
What good is peace in Jeruselum if Christ is continued to be blasphemed and spit upon by rejection.
I submit, that if we want to bless Israel we should pray for an awakening there not only that the rockets would stop falling.
In Christ alone,
Tim

Sadly, those in power (including here in the US) are handling this as if it were a political negotiation. There is an underlying religious motivation and fervor that unifies the Palestinians, Egyptians, Iranians and other Muslims in regard to the status of Israel.

If Israel were to make all of the concessions that they demand or just give up the entire nation to the Palestinians, there would still be no peace as long as Jews live in autonomy upon the earth. The fundamentals of Islam cause Muslims to view Jews as the "enemy." Those Muslims who don't believe in this are not "fundamentalist" Muslims.

It seems that secularists in this world loudly despise "fundamentalists" until it comes to Islam. Comedians and atheists will mock Christianity and the Cross of Christ. They will mention "fundamentalist Christians" in the same breath and category as Nazis or Communists. Yet, true Christians "fundamentalists" are peaceful at heart. However, they are the brunt of jokes and hatred by the people of this world. Yet, those same people of this world will walk on "egg shells" when it comes to any affront on the "fundamentals" of Islam.

Yes, this can be incorrectly seen by believers through the lens of the Old Covenant. However, it is also important to note that this is a secular world we live in. I do not believe that God disregarded his covenant with Israel -- because the "tribes of Israel" play an important role during the Tribulation.

Interestingly, much of Bible prophesy takes place within the earthly confines of the current State of Israel -- including Megiddo and possibly the Temple Mount, Mount of Olives and the rest of Jerusalem.

"And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it." - Zechariah 12:3

Yes, the Messiah has been largely rejected in the State of Israel. However, that doesn't dictate my prayers. I have family members -- that I love dearly -- who have either rejected the Messiah or cannot embrace Him as we do. I still pray for them as well. I think that Romans chapter 10 is a great reminder when praying for Jews.

In addition to Romans 10, consider the next chapter:

Romans 11
King James Version (KJV)

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Romans 11
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Israel Is Not Cast Away

1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”
9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 “Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

Romans 11
New International Version 1984 (NIV 1984)

The Remnant of Israel

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.[c]

7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.”[d]
9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[e]
Ingrafted Branches

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology

33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”[j]
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?”[k]
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Footnotes:
Romans 11:3 1 Kings 19:10,14
Romans 11:4 1 Kings 19:18
Romans 11:6 Some manuscripts be grace. But if by works, then it is no longer grace; if it were, work would no longer be work.
Romans 11:8 Deut. 29:4; Isaiah 29:10
Romans 11:10 Psalm 69:22,23
Romans 11:27 Or will be
Romans 11:27 Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9; Jer. 31:33,34
Romans 11:31 Some manuscripts do not have now.
Romans 11:33 Or riches and the wisdom and the
Romans 11:34 Isaiah 40:13
Romans 11:35 Job 41:11

If you notice, the Apostle Paul -- writing under the New Covenant -- still referred to passages and prophesies from the Old Covenant in regard to the people of Israel. By Paul's references, it is clear that he is applying prophecies made during the Old Covenant to the then "nation" of Israel (which, at the time, was the people within a physical territory controlled by Rome). As such, I reject the cessation view regarding the Jews.

First let me state thank you to Chris and Bearmaster for not getting emotional in this conversation. Usally the accusation of antisemetism is being thrown around before the discussion is barely started.

My desire is to seek the truth in this matter. I want to respond to God in complete obedience in this matter.

So the question remains for me, If what you are saying is true Chris, how is it are we to bless Israel?

It seems to me that in Romans Paul is more concerned with the spiritual condition more than any physical blessing. So much so that he is willing to sacrifice his own soul for his Jewish brothers.

I just do not see in the New Testament an emphesis on the national state of Israel. Why is that? Yet in some churches you would think every page revolves around the nation of Israel. (I happen to attend one of these)

Again let me state I do pray for Israel. And I have a burden for the Jewish people. But I have an equal burden for the palestinian, Syrian, Iranian, ect.
So many times in our prayer meetings I hear such a tear felt prayer for the Jewish people,(rightfully so) but it is almost like a tact on prayer for non-Jewish people in the mid-east. Something like, oh and by the way God, save those other guys too.

Lets be honest do you hear heart break over the loss of life on the Palestinian side as much as you do the Israely side. I can only speak for myself, but I don't.

I am only speaking in spiritual terms not political here.
I look forward to your imput.

May each of be led to obey God fully in this matter.
In Christ alone,
Tim

I am wondering something. Despite what we hear going on in the Middle East are we exhorted to support Israel even if we find them doing a provoking act rather than something defensive?

Hi Bearmaster,

My post was not a reply to your post. I was simply pointing out that Paul the Apostle referred to Israel in Romans referring to prophecy in the Old Testament. Thus, he is cementing the fact that the prophetic references from the Old Testament were still referring to the physical nation of Israel rather than a "spiritual" Israel that was grafted into the vine.

I apologize for the confusion.

Yes, it appears to be speaking of the physical tribes of Israel.

In these chapters, Paul is talking about his own physical heritage and God's desire for Israel. In fact, Paul is addressing Gentile believers -- and distinguishes them as such -- in this very passage (Romans 11:13). He mentioned the consequence of Israel's rejection of Christ and mentions how wonderful the "fullness" will be (verse 12).

So, in this sense, Paul is referring to the physical Israelites -- the seed of Abraham (Romans 11:1-2). He refers to how Israel will be saved when the "fullness of Gentiles" is complete. Within these chapters, Paul refers to at least two dozen passages/prophesies from the Old Testament in reference to the promises to the physical nation...such as mentioned in verse 26-27.

On a personal level, I am highly convinced that Israel plays an important role in last day prophecy and that the Ezekiel 37 reference to the "valley of dry bones" refers to a physical nation. Yet, more importantly, I believe that the physical seed of Abraham -- regardless of governmental considerations -- is an important point of reference in eschatology.

Bearmaster,

The point that I was trying to make in my previous posts was to show how Paul referred to the Old Testament prophesies when discussing the physical seed of Abraham. So, in regard to your claim that we are "going back to the Old Testament for support" -- so was Paul.

No one here has argued that Paul was not interested in the spiritual condition of the Jews. I'm not even sure why you would suggest otherwise. However, in addition to the spiritual condition, Paul is undoubtedly speaking of a physical Israel -- the physical seed of Abraham -- in the sense of these chapters (Romans 10, 11, 12). This is where he refers to the "fullness" of the Jews.

Now, is this referring to the current state of Israel? I am not sure in a governmental sense. However, the state seems to be alluded to in prophecy. And, very importantly, many of the prophesies in the Old Testament -- including many that are referred to in the NEW Testament -- haven't come to pass yet.

Brother, you need to be very careful about how "few" believers call for Netanyahu's salvation. You can't possibly know the number of believers who have interceded for him. Thus, you need to be careful before you make such a public claim. If your mind is set upon such things during a prayer call, then you might want to set your mind on things above instead of guessing the motives of those on the other end of the phone.

I have read Romans again and I see God saving His elect of Israel.
I am not saying that there is no physical blessing for them. To be honest I am not sure how that will all work out. I do know that the Jews were looking for a physical kingdom when Christ came the first time and they missed what He really came to offer them.

It seems to me that they are in danger of the same tragic error, and the church appears to be assisting them.

I can not speak for bearmaster, but it does appear at times that even in the prayers I hear a reluctance to pray for the salvation of Bibi. It is just an observation. Obviously I do not know the heart.

I do know that in our church we have been showed videos of how great it is that many in Israel are returning to the Torrah. And that the Torah is the answer to Israels problems.

In a sense that is true, Christ is in the Torah. That however was not what they were saying. It was a secular video.

Anyway after the video nothing was mentioned at all about what Israel really needs is to accept the messiah.

Chris, that type of thing is what is causing me so much frustration. It causes me great concern. It seems that many are so concerned about the end times and Israels role in it that they almost have a blind eye to the true need of the Jewish people.

I just can not find anywhere in scripture where the church is to change it's message or obligations regardless to whom they are speaking or how close to His appearing we might think it is.

bearmaster,
hopefully this conversation will help us to think and listen to the Holy Spirit for His teaching.

I am still trying to get my arms around the teaching of the New Covenant. It is not a topic often talked about in my circle for some reason.

Now I have heard it in regard to salvation. The Old Testament was under the Law and the New under grace. But I guess that needs to be discussed on another thread.

We are blessed to have a forum where we can help one another grow in grace and knowledge. And there is spell check too!

Hi timg,

I don't think that you should be frustrated or too concerned about the believers concerns regarding the Jews. Most believers that I know -- including those who might see the nation of Israel as an indicator or player in Bible prophecy -- are deeply concerned that Jews would meet the Messiah.

I have heard this said many times on SermonIndex; however, I have never seen anyone here who believes that physical Israel plays a role in last day prophecy as not caring for the salvation of Israel.

Likewise, I don't see anyone saying that the Church should "change its message or obligations" depending on to whom they are speaking. Paul, Peter and the early Church left a wonderful example in the Book of Acts as to how we can approach Jews with the Good News.

As for Benjamin Netanyahu: I know believers who pray for his salvation. I know "fullness" Jews who follow Christ who pray for his salvation. I do think that it is unwise to try and interpret the response (or lack thereof) on a telephone prayer call as being "reluctance to pray" for his salvation. After all, most of our prayers are silent -- and this is probably true over the telephone too.

When I read Romans, I see a clear distinction between those who have been grafted into the Vine and those who comprise the physical, tribal "nation" of Israel. Paul invoked Old Testament prophecies when speaking of the physical Israel and showed that these prophecies have not yet been fulfilled (e.g. all of Israel will be saved).

Now, does that necessarily refer to the secular nation of Israel. I will be the first to say "not necessarily." However, I am strongly convinced that Ezekiel's vision of a valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37) was in reference to the return of a physical nation of Israel after a diaspora lasting thousands of years...and the subsequent chapters concerning "Gog" and "Magog" -- and accompanying military conflicts -- were as well.

Ultimately, no one should be basing their faith or views on the physical government of Israel. We should be reaching out to all people with the Good News of Jesus Christ. However, I do think that we should be careful as to proclaim anything with a certainty in areas where we aren't entirely certain. What if we are wrong in our assertion about the role of Israel? We must be careful to leave room for our "glass darkly" perspective.

Whereas some have mentioned that others may be "neglecting" the spiritual needs of Jews, I have also seen indications where individuals have dismissed the heritage of Jews in a way that is very similar to how Muslims dismiss Jews as a "corrupted" people. We should be very careful about falling into this.

While there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile for those who are in Christ, I do believe that there is a physical distinction in terms of this world. This is what Paul mentioned in Romans by distinguishing between Jews, Gentiles and "grafted" believers. And, speaking of the physical seed of Abraham, Paul mentioned the "hardening" that occurred in part within those who rejected the Messiah until the full number of Gentiles had come in (Romans 11:25-26).

In this sense, I must say that we should pray for the Jews to know Christ. We should not fear introducing the Savior with any person -- Jew or Gentile. In fact, we should be doing this anyway. It is our role as an "ambassador of Christ" to this world. At the same time, we should not dismiss the notion that God did not "reject" His "people" (Romans 11:1-2).

The Lord bless you.

Just a thought for those who might see the entire tree as Israel, I may be wrong however was it not the branches from the tree that were cut off. In other words the israel nation was the branches in this story. Not the vine itself i.e. I am the true vine.

Were we grafted into the true vine by the graceful work of Jesus or were we grafted to become part of the nation of Israel?

It is easy to get confused thinking the entire tree was israel but it was the branches that were cut off. Hebrews has a lot to say on natural Israel, the old testament law and the old covenant and their replacements, the term for the old testament law is that it was abrogated, in its general meaning it is put on the shelf as there is a new law that replaces it. We find the same with the new and old covenant.

Paul is very clear in providing understanding to the Jews in this letter, if you agree that it was Paul that wrote it, even so, the teaching is unmistakable.

Let us shine the light of Christ to the Jews, to the Muslims to the Mormons to the Hindus, in fact to anybody that has not accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as saviour because we would all agree that he is the way and none come to the father but by him.

Paul also said that just because the Pharisees had Abraham as their father it did not mean that they were spiritual israel. Excuse my paraphrasing but I think you will find the context accurate.

I agree with our brother on the Glass Darkly perspective as we will all be amazed at the end i think. There appear to be a people who are not my people yet who at the end convert. This could be said to be the gentiles however i think it is written after this time.

For what its worth I had a vision that was the valley of dry bones, the army I felt was the church awakening from its gross slumber and not just those but those that would respond to the call to AWAKE ARISE to the call of a holy God.

Hi timg: I just wanted to come back to you on the points you made about the over emphasis on Israel by some in your church. Chris has already adressed some of this and I agree with him.

Obviously I cannot speak for your church, as I do not know it or the people. However it is true that there are some Christians that hold Israel and Jewish people in an exalted position that is not biblically sound. These would not even consider a Jew in need of salvation and consider that the Old Covenant is still in operation for them. They also seemed to want to come uder Judasim and embrace aspects of the Law. This is clearly wrong. That said, it is also true that most Christians who hold to the view that God has not finished with the Jewish nation and has a future place for a literal nation of Israel (pre-millennialism)fully understand that Jewish people (like all people) need to come to salvation in Jesus Christ and embrace the New Covenant. I have had many opportunities to share the gospel with Jewish people and tell them of Jesus dying for their sins and the New Covenant. In the land of Israel there are now many (and increasing) Jewish believers and congregations, where they clearly declare the gospel and need for repentance to their fellow Jews (while holding to the view that God's plan is to restore the nation of Israel physically and spiritually).

It is wrong to think that pre-millennial chistians teach that Jews do not need slavation or that the current nation of Israel is already a holy nation. It clearly is not - it is secular and un-godly at present... but I believe scripture teaches that God has a plan for physical Israel and 1948 was the beginning of that plan being put into place. We wait the outworking of this when they will recognise their Messiah (Jesus) and come into New Covenant life!

Wombat1 - True the branches that were cut off were physical Jews (Romans 11:17,20,21). These were 'natural' branches, but the gentiles (non jews) are wild branches that are grafted into among them. (Rom 11:17,21,24). It is the root that gives life to all the branches. The root is Christ.

Here is the clincher for me....Romans 11:25 says "..blindness has happened in part to Israel". So Israel here must be physical Israel. It cannot mean a spiritual Israel that is blind and cut out. Then it says...." until the fullness of the gentiles has come in (physical gentiles, but New covenat believers). v.26 "And so all Israel will be saved"..."He will turn ungodliness from JACOB". Logically this must also be physical Israel that Paul is talking about.

Chris,
I go back to my original point. What does it mean to bless Israel? And what is the Israel they are speaking of?

If by bless you mean pray. Pray for what? If you mean support. Support what, and how?

The warning constantly mentioned that if we don't bless Israel we will not be blessed. With such a dire warning it would be great if there were some specifics.

Up to this point in my life, I have had no one show me from the New Testament where we as the body of Christ are to treat Jewish people any differently than any other group of people. That is with love.

I do not see a willingness in the American church to point out the corruption in Israel's Government and people. Yet we are quick to point out our own. Why is that? That to me is a glaring inconsistency and I don't understand it. Is it because it might be perceived as a "curse"?

I am concerned, and will remain so, because I believe that we the church are sending a confusing message to the Jewish people.

Thanks Heydave for your response. I do not believe that pre-millennial christians teach that Jews do not need to be saved. I do believe and pray that there will be a great awakening in Israel.

I will read and consider Romans 11:25. I seek to know the truth. I do not want to be blind in this area.

bearmaster - I don't disagree with what you say above. But this truth does not negate the other truth that Romans 9-11 teaches about physical Israel. Let's leave it at that.

bearmaster - The answer to your question was in my previous post. I repeat -
"Here is the clincher for me....Romans 11:25 says "..blindness has happened in part to Israel". So Israel here must be physical Israel. It cannot mean a spiritual Israel that is blind and cut out. Then it says...." until the fullness of the gentiles has come in (physical gentiles, but New covenat believers). v.26 "And so all Israel will be saved"..."He will turn ungodliness from JACOB". Logically this must also be physical Israel that Paul is talking about."

So Israel mentioned here cannot be spiritual Israel consisting of both Jew and Gentile, because Paul distinguishes between an Israel that is blind and cut out of the olive tree (for a season) and the gentiles who are grafted in. Then he makes it clear that he is talking about the decendants of 'Jacob' when he says 'Israel'. Never is the church refered to as 'Jacob'. Hope this is clear.

Chris has already explained that Paul in these chapters refers back to the Old Testament prophesies when discussing this, so clearly this shows us that the New Testament teaches that these OT promises still stand, even though the 'Sinai covenant' of law is now obsolete. We must disnguish between the scripture promises and the covenant of law.

However, let us pray for Israel, for those in government that they will have wisdom in dealing with the current situation in a right way. Let us pray for the innocent citizens in Gaza and Israelthat are affected by this conflict. Let us pray that Jew and Gentile in that land will be enlighted to the truth that is in Jesus Christ and that they would come to a saving knowledge of Him.

Once again a simple suggestion for prayer turns into a major argument.

There seems to be a few people on these forums that continue to spend their time combing through the threads looking for fights to start.

These same few appear to have something to say on nearly every thread started and always leads to a debate.

Used4him was suggesting we pray.

Let me ask you a question: (FYI I am not really looking for you to post an answer).

Is the time that you have spent debating and checking the post for answer to your argument, then checking again and again, just waiting to post your next point; greater or less than the time that you have spent in prayer for the situation?

Instead of responding again with a fiery self-righteous comment - just pray!

Thank you, Iceman. I came back to the post and was astonished that in a few days so many posts were made. I will enjoy reading all of it when I have more time. The debate is an interesting one. I think we can learn something from these biblical scholars who write on here. I am not one.

This just proves what is in scripture: Zechariah 12:3

Israel will become a burdensome stone and rock of offense.
Keep praying!

Actually this has been a discussion. It wasn't intentional to hijack the thread, but to seek answers. Sorry if you were offended.
If done correctly, discussions can be very useful for gaining knoweledge.

I value these discussions because I am not a scholar and am sharpened by the thoughts of others.

Hopefully we did not cease from praying for the situation over in the middle east during this time.

I have appriciated reading my brother's comments. It seems to me that it was done in a sincere and humble manner. It has also helped me to know how and what to pray for.

May we continue to grow in grace and the knoweledge of our blessed savior.

Tim

Praying for israel

Good News Brethren,

The LORD heard our cry for Israel and a ceasefire deal with Hamas has been made. Even though Hamas still has the goal for the destruction of Israel, God give us all the grace to pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6) and their enemies (Matthew 5:44).

But frankly, I would like to address this forum. I do not appreciate, knowing that there was a war between Israel and Gaza, the fact that we argue over pointless things. I praise God for giving people the grace to pray for Israel. Those of you who just argued over the prophetic significance of the end-times and Israel, you ought to repent! I do not believe God was pleased with what you were doing. God wanted us to pray for the salvation of Israel and yet some of you dared to just sit on a forum and argue. Shame on you! God have mercy on all of us in this time. Even though there is a ceasefire, may we as Christians never cease to pray for God's people, Israel. Yes, without Christ, Jews as much as Greeks will perish. But through them (The Apostles were Jewish) came the Gospel. God help us all to pray for them.

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- Michael Liao

Dear Bearmaster,

Dear brother, forgive me for my hasty words. Maybe the word "prophetic" was not the right word. Yes, I was referring to the whole Romans 9 - 11 subject on this post. I just wanted to address the fact that if we know that Israel is under attack and at war, certainly we must pray however God is leading you to pray. If it's an issue of how to pray for Israel regarding the New Covenant and God burdens you to pray in a certain way, then yes obey Him. But, if God burdens another brother or sister to pray in another way, then let His will be done. I will also take back what I said regarding people not praying but arguing. I should have read the forum more carefully instead of immediately jumping on the horse, so once again Brother, I plea for your forgiveness. But noting that you said that no one stopped praying, I find it amazing, that brothers and sisters on this very forum are praying for Israel, yet at the same time eating at each other on the subject of how to pray for them. The answer is simple, look to the Scriptures. We should pray that God saves them from their sins to Christ, and at the same time pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Romans 122:6, Romans 9). But whatever God burdens you most, just obey His Spirit. See, true unity in the Body of Christ is not just "everybody do the same thing." True Unity is the eyes, the feet, the mouth, though they have different functions and/or burdens, are able to work with each other (1 Corinthians 12). Brother, you cannot expect everyone to be the eye or to pray like you pray. Now, I am not just addressing you personally on this issue Dear Brother, but everyone else who was and is on this particular forum. We may have different views on how to go about this, but we all had one goal in common, praying for Israel, whether for the physical or the spiritual side of the matter. I hope you all understand where I'm coming from. One last suggestion, when someone is burdened to post a prayer request, God forbid that we should eat at each others throats on that post and just take that opportunity to love and pray for that person or nation (whatever it may be) who/that is in need. Let us now rejoice in the LORD, for he has answered our cry for Israel.

God help us all....

Your Servant in Jesus' Name,

- Michael Liao

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they may be saved." Romans 10:1

"He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become children of God—to the ones believing [or, trusting] in His name,who were begotten, not from [or, by] bloods, nor from a will of flesh, nor from a will of a man, but from God." John 1:11-13

Selah

Dear Michael Laio,

I understand your sentiments, but please understand why some of us responded with posts regarding the position of Israel in scripture.
The OP was a request to pray for Israel and gave some details of the current situation. Then immediately (check the first page of this thread) at least two posters decided to confront the motive of Christian's praying for Israel based on a doctrinal position and naivety about what was/is happening. Why they did this only they know. However once it was introduced, it needed addressing. Error needs to be confronted with truth. I'm not saying I or any of us has all the truth, but some statements just should not just be left un-challanged.

I am a bit confused by bearmasters last post, which seems to contradict his earlier ones. It was definitely bearmaster that continued the Romans 9-11 debate by stating there was no longer a promise for a physical Israel....and this on a thread that was asking us to pray for 'physical Israel', so hence the responses!
Now having re-read the posts I think that bearmaster and others are reacting against some folk who seem to have a 'romantic' view of Israel and the Jews that is un-balanced. However that is no reason to react to the position of rejecting the promises God gave to Israel.

In a way I'm sorry that I felt it neccessary to come back and explain all this, but if we are asked to pray for something like this, we do need correct information and thinking, not people saying the motives are wrong.

Now we give thanks that there is a sort of peace between Israel and Gaza, but let's not be misled in our thinking to suppose this is any real peace. As someone once said " Peace is just that period between two wars" Real peace only comes from right relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Last night there was celebrations with firewoks, shooting and parties in Gaza by the palestinians because they see they have won a great victory (crazy, but true). With this sort of mindset it makes impossible (without a miracle) to expect peace there.

Oh Neil (Hezwelling)!

You really have mis-understood me and I am sorry because maybe it was my inadequate writing skills.

"When I said Crazy, but true" about the Gaza 'celebrations', I meant it is true (and crazy) that this is what they were doing (celebrating), NOT true that they had a victory. I am sickened that they could behave in such a way.

If you read all my posts, I have been arguing for the scriptual truth that Israel is still part of God's plan and the promises given to Israel reagrding the land still stand, BTW, those that I was in disagreement with are in the USA I believe.

Regarding my terms 'romantic and un-balanced' views of Israel, what I am referring to are those who like John Hagee think that we should not preach the gospel to Jewish people as they are already in relationship with God through the Old covenant. I definitely do think we should support Israel and recognise that God still has a purpose for that nation and people as described in many unfulfilled OT prophesies.

Regarding Great Britain, yes it is to our shame that we renaged on the commitment to give the Jewish people a homeland and many Bristish christians are aware and ashamed of this. It was however British evangelical Christians in the 19th century that helped renew the importance of Israel's return to their homeland and help facilitate that. I don't think any current nation today can hold it's head up as being a true friend of Israel (not even the USA).

Neil,

I have just read your reply. Thank you for your open and humble apology. Of course you are forgiven. I had guessed you may have been busy with Thankgiving.

You know something? We had just decided to go and but some fish and chips for our supper when I came on here first and read this. :)) So I'm off to the 'chippy' (Fish and Chip Shop) and we will definitely be thinking of you as we eat soon. Maybe one day we can eat them together..if not here on earth it will have to be in heaven!

God bless you and yours, Dave.