Can Catholics Have the Assurance of Salvation? by Dan Delzell

I received a package in the mail last week from a Roman Catholic woman in our area. We have never met, but she thought I could use a little booklet entitled, "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth." It was published by Catholic Answers. (www.catholic.com) This group is "the largest Catholic apologetics and evangelization organization in North America." They obviously have tremendous zeal to spread Catholic teachings to others. In fact, there are 5 million copies of this booklet in print.

"Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth" is very revealing. It was written by people who have been thoroughly immersed in Catholic doctrine. It states, "We are lay people devoting our full-time efforts to promoting the Catholic faith." The booklet has been endorsed and declared "free of doctrinal errors" by Roman Catholic theologians, but laid out in simple terms.

I was especially interested in the way they described the path to salvation. It states that "we are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone, which is what 'Bible Christians' teach." (p. 22) This distinction is absolutely huge and it gets right to the heart of the matter. This very point is the primary reason the Reformation took place. Everything hinges on how a church defines "grace."
In the context of this article, I will use their term "Bible Christians" to present what Christians since the time of Christ have believed the Bible teaches regarding eternal life and the assurance of salvation. This is not a new doctrine. It has been around for 2000 years….long before the Protestant Reformation took place some 500 years ago.

The booklet states, "We do not 'earn' our salvation through good works (Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 9:16), but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life." (Rom. 2:7, Gal. 6:8-9) Did you catch that? According to Catholic Answers, a grace-filled life of obedience is said to be rewarded with eternal life.

So is "grace" in the Bible God's unmerited love, mercy, and forgiveness for sinners on account of Christ? Or....is it those things, plus man's "grace-filled" works of obedience? Everything hinges on how a church defines the "grace" that is said to save us.
What do Bible Christians teach on this matter? We too point to Ephesians 2:8-9, which states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast." These verses make it clear that one's entrance into heaven is not a reward for obedience. Good works are done as a result of being saved and as a response to God's love in Christ. Good works in the Bible are not done in an effort to "close the deal" on salvation.

If "grace" equals forgiveness plus your obedient response to that forgiveness, then you have redefined "grace." That is not New Testament grace. You could use this acronym to get a handle on it. GRACE is actually "God's Riches At Christ's Expense." GRACE is not a "Good Response After Christ Enters" me. Grace is what God gives believers to cleanse us and cover us with the righteousness of Christ....not what we do as a result of grace. If you define grace wrong, you get salvation wrong. If you get salvation wrong, you miss out on the free gift of eternal life. Leave it to man to turn grace into something we do....and we complete....and we earn.

The Bible teaches that we are saved by grace through faith....rather than being saved by grace through faith, plus works. While it is true that genuine faith will always produce good works, it is also true that genuine faith is genuine before the first work is done. The thief on the cross who trusted Jesus had faith in Christ....and he was forgiven....and Jesus lovingly spoke to him about the assurance of his salvation. "Today you will be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43)
For Bible Christians, salvation is secure at the moment of conversion, whether a believer realizes it or not. Faith is the root....and assurance is the flower. The object of saving faith is the cross. The fruit of saving faith is assurance, but not every believer experiences the flower of continual assurance from day to day. Some believers allow themselves to coddle their doubts concerning their salvation. A believer may lack the assurance of his salvation, but he is still saved because the object of his faith is Jesus and the good news of the Gospel. On the other hand, a person who places his faith in the wrong object is not saved, even if he possesses a personal assurance that his efforts are enough to get him into heaven.

You not only can be sure of your salvation right after you are converted….but God wants you to be sure right away. The Bible makes that clear in the words of the apostle John: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13) That is not to say that everyone who thinks he has been saved truly has been granted salvation. But it is to say that the clear teaching of the Bible is that a believer can know that he has eternal life. A Christian can definitely have the assurance of his salvation. But remember....it's not your assurance that saves you....it is Christ and His death for your sins. He is the object of Christian faith. Don't make the mistake of placing faith in your faith. Just keep your eyes on Jesus and what He accomplished when He said, "It is finished." (John 19:30)

If Bible Christians and Catholics were to be in agreement on the assurance of salvation, a monumental wall between the two groups would be removed. This is not a secondary issue, or an inconsequential doctrine. The assurance of salvation pertains to the very Gospel itself, and whether the message being presented as the "Gospel" is actually the message of the Bible….or simply a product of man. Is it the true Gospel….or is it a mixture of law and gospel pretending to be the Gospel?

Bible Christians as well as Catholics teach the doctrine of justification. In fact, "Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth" defines justification in much the same way as Bible Christians describe it. The booklet states, "When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace." (p. 23) To that statement Bible Christians would say, "Amen. That is correct."

A few sentences later, however, the booklet states that eternal life is a reward for the obedient and "good works are meritorious." (p. 23) This is beyond problematic. It is another gospel….a different gospel than the one which both Jesus and St. Paul presented. No wonder so many Catholics lack the assurance of salvation. They are taught that a person can be justified in an instant, but cannot in the same moment be assured of heaven. Huh? Justification without salvation? This completely contradicts the teaching of Scripture, which clearly states, "Since we have been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" (Romans 5:9)

But what about all those "other non-Catholic Christians" who teach that a professing believer can be saved regardless of how he lives? The booklet lists that example as an alternative to the Catholic position. But is it really a common teaching among Bible Christians? I don't know of one Bible Christian who teaches such a thing. That is not to say that there are not some people out there who present that unbiblical message....but whoever is teaching such a doctrine is going against Scripture and is presenting a different gospel. That example as an argument against the Gospel of "Bible Christians" is nothing more than a staw man.

St. Paul made it clear that those who "sow to please the sinful nature" are not saved and "will reap destruction." (Gal. 6:8) Bible Christians do not teach that just because you claim to have accepted Jesus as your personal Savior, you are saved even if you deliberately continue sinning against the Lord. That is a strong perception among some Catholics of what Bible Christians teach, but it isn't accurate. It goes against the Bible. Any "Christian" who teaches such a thing needs to get his theological head examined. There is no salvation, and therefore no assurance of salvation, for anyone who lives for sin rather than for the Savior.

It seems as though many Catholic theologians feel that if you provide people with the assurance of salvation, you are inviting them to live a loose life of sinful pleasure. While there are no doubt some misguided people who attempt to follow that approach, it is not something that is taught in the Bible….and it is not something that will result in a person being saved....and it is not the teaching of Bible Christians. Salvation comes to those who repent and believe the good news….and who have been made a new creation in Christ, (2 Cor. 5:17) and not to those who say certain Christian words while intending to make sin their master rather than Christ.

With all of that in mind….and with this being the most important topic we could ever discuss….the question remains: Can Catholics have the assurance of salvation? Not according to this Catholic booklet with 5 million copies in print. It states, "The Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation." (p. 25) Whoa! That is completely wrong and terribly misguided.

Without the assurance of salvation, eternal life is like a carrot dangling out in front of you that you must keep striving to obtain. Bible Christians reject that approach to salvation and correctly identify it as "works righteousness." That is the sort of doctrine you end up with when you separate salvation from justification. This is why so many Bible Christians regularly ask people, "Are you saved?" The goal is to help people think through whether they are relying upon the Law, or upon the Gospel for salvation.

One such example happened today in our weekly Bible study at the county jail. A conscientious man came to the study and identified himself as an active Catholic who attends church weekly. He was extremely disappointed to be in jail after having gone 10 years without a setback. I was very impressed with Scott's openness and honesty concerning the problem which landed him in jail yesterday. I asked him, "If God were to ask you today why He should let you into heaven, what would you tell him?" Scott pointed to a few things he has done over the years as a father and church attender which he hoped would qualify him. In doing so, Scott pointed to his righteousness rather than Christ's righteousness as the basis of his hope for heaven.

By the time we were done talking, I had been able to draw on the board for Scott and the other men showing them the relationship between justification and salvation....and that they occur simultaneously through faith in Christ's work on the cross. I even referred to the Catholic booklet I received in the mail, and Scott was familiar with it. I explained to the men what gives me the assurance that I would go to heaven if I died today. It has nothing to do with me being a pastor....or anything I have done. My answer to the Lord would be: "I am trusting completely in the blood which Jesus shed for me on the cross, and relying totally upon His death as the payment for my sins. I am placing 100% of my confidence for heaven in His work on the cross."

That message seemed to register with Scott and the others. I invited them to place 100% of their faith for heaven in Christ's work. I led them in a prayer that allowed them to verbally express faith in Christ, and they seemed to be genuine in wanting to place their faith in Christ alone. Scott's spiritual eyes and ears seemed to have opened to the message of the Gospel when he heard it today.
The moment a person is justified, he can be certain of his salvation. This is what the Bible teaches. Dangling carrots breed nothing but spiritual uncertainty, and it leads a person to rely upon his obedience to the Law rather than relying upon the good news of the Gospel.

It's the difference between total reliance upon the cross right now as the basis for salvation today....versus a perpetual and ongoing reliance upon both Jesus and my obedience as the dual basis for hopefully receiving salvation in the future. It comes down to what I am relying upon to save my soul. "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." (Gal. 5:9) In other words, relying partly on my obedience to be saved is just as bad as relying completely on my efforts to keep God's commands. "All who rely upon observing the law are under a curse."(Gal. 3:10)

Bible Christians reject the teaching that man earns heaven through "grace-filled" obedience, or any other kind of obedience. The good works which a Christian does are the result of God's presence in his life, but are not meritorious toward his entrance into heaven. That point cannot be overemphasized. It is the difference between Christianity and every other religion. Any Catholic teaching that makes man's works meritorious toward his entrance into heaven is a message that goes against the Gospel....and against Jesus Christ....and against His true church....and against the Bible....and it keeps those who follow it from entering paradise. "If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing." (Gal. 2:21)

The little booklet I received was not written by the pope. But even if it had been, the false statements that are contained in it would still be just as false. The pope is a man. The Roman Catholic church is made up of men. In the history of the world, some men have been wrong in their teaching about grace and the Gospel. It doesn't matter how many centuries a false doctrine has been taught....it does not become true just because it manages to persist in men's hearts and in a church's doctrinal statement. It is false doctrine to teach, as this booklet does, that there can be no absolute assurance of salvation. That robs Christ of His glory and His sacrifice on the cross by making man the one who must finalize the salvation which God supposedly only began in our justification.

So is there any common ground for Catholics and Bible Christians on this foundational issue? Well….only if the doctrines of justification and salvation are both seen as instantaneous and simultaneous the moment a person is converted through the power of the Holy Spirit as he comes to faith in Jesus Christ. In other words, when man is justified before God through faith in Christ, he immediately inherits eternal life….even before he does his first good work. If he fails to go on to do good works, Catholics and Bible Christians would agree that he is not truly saved, and that his faith is not genuine.

But where the Catholic Church would be wise to expand their thinking is in the relationship between justification and salvation. If Catholic theologians would come to see that salvation, like justification, is a free gift….rather than a carrot on a stick….and that nothing preceding salvation earns grace….and nothing preceding the assurance of salvation earns grace....then Catholics and Bible Christians would have a lot to celebrate with one another.

As it stands, a number of Catholics and Bible Christians get it….while others among our ranks are still confused about the Gospel and are trying to earn eternal life through their deeds….rather than placing 100% of their assurance of salvation in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

"Without faith, it is impossible to please God." (Hebrews 11:6) "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." (Hebrews 11:1)Therefore, it is impossible to please God as long as you are relying upon your "grace-filled" works to seal the deal for your salvation. Biblical faith is focused on the finished work of Christ on the cross....and that is why a believer can be certain of his salvation....because he is certain of what Jesus did for him. The focus of faith is not on what the believer gets to do for Christ. Even if you call it "grace-filled" obedience, you still have brought in a counterfeit gospel the minute you say that a Christian cannot be sure of his salvation.

What about the verse, as pointed to in the booklet, about working out your salvation with fear and trembling? That's easy. You cannot "work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12) unless you have already received the free gift of salvation. (John 1:12) Your fear and trembling refers to the seriousness of your Christian living….and your awe for our holy God….but not to a lack of assurance regarding eternal life. If we confuse the two, we end up with a false gospel that cannot save….and a message of "works righteousness," rather than the message of the Bible, which assures us that "this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." (Romans 3:22)
Works righteousness comes from man trusting in his efforts to "hopefully" give him salvation somewhere down the road. The "righteousness from God" which Paul writes about in Romans comes from man trusting in Christ's death on the cross to "certainly" give him salvation today. Reliance upon our works is not faith, and it provides no righteousness for the sinner. Reliance upon Christ is Christian faith and it does provide the righteousness which we need to in order to be righteous in God's sight forever. (see Romans 3:21-26)

So can Catholics have the assurance of salvation? Yes….but only when they believe what the Bible teaches about salvation. The Bible is inerrant....the enormous religious organization based in Rome is not....and neither are the human organizations which many Bible Christians identify as their denomination. Jesus is infallible....the pope is not. The Gospel is for all people, and no human organization can stop people from believing the truth. But a religious organization can sure muddy the waters by teaching that there is no absolute assurance of salvation.

If that were truly the case, then perhaps Jesus would have told the thief on the cross who believed in Him, "I hope to see you later today in paradise....that is, if you prove yourself worthy." That is not the Gospel, and that was not the message of Christ or the apostles. So you see....everything truly does hinge on how a church defines "grace." Is it what we do....or what Christ has done?
Whenever salvation gets separated from justification, man remains separated from God in his sin. Only the blood of Jesus can bring God and man together, and that only happens through faith in what Christ accomplished for us on the cross. All other mental and spiritual gymnastics will leave you doubting your salvation....and continually striving to "make up the difference" now that Jesus has done His part.

Many people are seduced by the enticing message that somehow our efforts help to secure our eternal life in heaven. Nothing could be further from the truth. That applies whether you identify yourself as a "Catholic," or a "Bible Christian," or with some other label. After all, it's not your church label that will get you into heaven. You do realize that don't you?

from: http://www.christianpost.com/news/can-catholics-have-the-assurance-of-salvation-85012/

We are brought into the Covenant family of God by faith which leads to Baptism, the sacrament of our justification in Christ (1 Cor 6:11; Gal 3:25-27; Tit 3:5-7).

But Jesus said His commandments were to love God and neighbour with agape love, which is an active, self sacrificing love. The way God loves. If we become a Christian and do not join our faith with works of love, it is dead (James 2:14-20).

Paul describes it as faith working through love (Gal 5:6). And says if he has faith without love he is nothing (1Cor 13:2).

As for the assurance of Salvation, I don't feel it is like a carrot hanging out of reach. We can have reasonable hope of salvation, and certainly can trust that God is always faithful. It is us that can drift away or fall away through unrepenent sin.

HI brothergary,

The problem is not good theology or bad theology. There is nothing wrong with the study of God or of His Word, but it cannot replace relationship with Him. If all you have is theology, and that is the case for much of Christendom, then you have nothing, even if it is a perfect theology.

What a man must have is an encounter with the Living God that ushers him into the Kingdom. Once a man is actually saved ( it is not a process, one is either saved or is not) then we will see fruits of his new found righteousness. An apple tree exists for one purpose, to produce apples.

Catholics, at their core, believe that one must be sanctified in order to be justified. It is a process to them. In fact if a Catholic were to pronounce that if they died this very day they would go to heaven, there wound be pronounced over them an anathema, in real terms the Catholic church would curse them for their pre-sumptiousness . For they, according to the Catholic church, must be weighed in the balance and according to what the scales say, they either go to heaven, hell or purgatory, or in the case of an un-baptized infant, limbo.

As an ex-Catholic, radically saved at the age of 27 and now having been a Christian for 21 years, I have found little difference in the attitudes and believes of most " good Catholics,' and much of Christendom. The abuse of being saved by faith alone is almost as great as the abuse that says one can work their way into heaven.

Ultimately it matters nothing what a man says, what matters is the reality of his regeneration, and this can be measured by the fruit that we see. If a man says he is saved but exhibits no fruit, no visible change in his life or his attitudes then one can easily dismiss that claim. The very nature of regeneration will guarantee fruit, thus proving it is indeed a fruit tree. Much of the confusion comes by the definition of what " works,' actually are. Charitible deeds are not the works that James describes. He gives two examples of works in his epistle. One is Abraham's obedience in taking his son up the hill to sacrifice him, and the other is Rahab's lie. This is something very much worth pondering and if one can understand what James is talking about in the context of works, then one will understand that it is not our works that James is talking about but it is God's work in us that he is talking about. Thus God always gets all the glory. For the work of regeneration that leads to sanctification and obedience is all the Lord's. Our part, the part of the truly regenerated man? Yield to God. To cease from our own works is to enter into His rest..............bro Frank

Lylewise writes.......

"Where has wisdom gone Brother Frank? Where is discernment?"

I believe much of it has been eroded away with compromise. I am thinking of the Evangelical agreement back in the 90s not to proseltyse Catholics and also what just happened with Mormonism, Billy Graham's organisation taking their literature down about them being a cult. We are definately headed in a certain direction, and these compromises and lack of dicernment is simply a sigh of the times, birth pangs of a great whore church to come......bro Frank

Good4life writes........

"raised as a catholic i never did have assurance that i was saved,i never heard the term saved before until someone told me about the gospel, and how to be saved,"

Well said Good4life. A Catholic can never have assurance of salvation, only a born again regenerated Christian can. I praise the Lord that there are millions of ex Catholics who are now genuine Christians and have the assurance that we are talking about............bro Frank

Good words, brother Frank.

This is in response to you Appolus,

You said "Catholics at their core believe that one must be sanctified in order to be justified".

That is correct, we see Justification as a process.

The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man" (Rom 7:23; Eph 3:16), Justification entails the sanctification of his whole being. (Catechism of the Catholic Church no 1995)

As Christians good works are performed in order that the Grace that God has given us may be lived out do that we may become more like Christ.

Final Justification (the crown of Righteousness), is awarded for keeping the faith and perserving (2Tim 4:7-8; 1Pet 5:4)
(Cited from 'Return to Rome:Confessions of an Evangelical Catholic' Francis J Beckwith)

You also said that our work is "Gods work in us".

This has always been taught in Catholism.

The Charity of Christ is the source in is of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. (Catechism of the Catholic Church no 2011)

If at the end of your very good works..., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to is, we shall also rest in you on the Sabbath of Eternal life. (St Augustine)

Hi TMK,

Isn't strange that we have the term " practising Catholic." I think the propestant world needs such a phrase :) Anyway, to answer your question I would say, yes. If one is practising Catholicism, one is working his way to heaven which is impossible. If a man or a woman has genuinly been born again, he will have the Spirit of truth in Him and the Spirit will lead and guide him or her into all truth, this is the Word of God. Now, there may be a process of coming out, I can certainly see that, but that would be for the very few. The vast majority of the millions of Catholics who have discovered the true Jesus as apposed to Eucharist, leave immediately.

I was asked by the dean of a " Christian college" one time why Catholics who come to Jesus in Mexico immediately leave the Catholic church and no longer want to be identified as a Catholic. I was amazed at this mans lack of knowledge and discerment. As I stated before, this is the slow march to the great whore church.........bro Frank

Andie writes.........

"That is correct, we see Justification as a process."

Thank you for your clarity Andie. Brothers and sisters, what Andie has just explained tells you why a Catholic cannot have assurance of salvation, even although the Scriptures teach this. It is by observance of the Sacraments that enables a Catholic, in their minds, to enter heaven. You will never find a knowlegable Catholic who will tell you that if they died today they would go to heaven, because according to their dogma, one cannot possibly know that. Again Andie, thank you for your clarity. Obviously we are not going to agree but I always appreciate a Catholic who at least know what he believes............Frank

"Those who are self-righteous and rely on works or grace plus works will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Idolatry is not only the adoration of images but also the trusting in one's own righteousness, works and merits." - Martin Luther

Martin Luther in the end of his life wrote this:

"The Christian is a strange bird. Some are certainly learning how to repeat words like a parrot. Their hearts, however, do not grasp the meaning, and they make no progress. They exalt the Gospel only in words. They do as they please, following their fleshly desires and becoming more sinful as before."

Our "trust" must be in the person, the living Christ in relationship with him, knowing Him. And just to know the "Gospel only in words" will not help anyone to have eternal life in them. Such Luther saw as the entire german country became lutheran yet there was life in only few. He re-did a protestant version of the catholic system in his own country and bore only marginally better results. For the remnant was still in the Catholic system before it was spewed out in anger by the Popes edicts.

I agree Makrothumia.

Anyway I thought I would post some scriptures that I believe support the Catholic position of Justification as a process. As Catholics we believe "I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved".

Justification as a past event: Rom 5:1-2; Rom 5:9; Rom 8:24; 1Cor 6:11

Justification as a continuing process: 1Cor 1:18; 1Cor 15:2; 2Cor 2:15

Justification as something not yet fully achieved: Rom 2:13; Gal 5:5; 1Cor 3:15; 1Cor 5:5; 1Tim 2:15; 2Tim 4:8; 2Tim 4:18

HI guys,

While I appreciate makrothumia's reply, I would just say that it may needlessly complicate this discussion, and here is why i think that. The OP is obvioulsy about Catholicism, and while I myself touched on some of the claims of those in the " Protrstant world," the main issue is about what Catholics teach and how that stands in the light of Scripture.

The argument that Makrothumia just put forward is a subject in and of itself and it would be a good subject. Yet, the Catholic world and the doctrines and dogmas of men do not come into this category of obeying or not obeying. Catholicism is, at its basest form, just simply and completely deceived as to who Jesus is and how He encounters men. Certainly He does not encounter men in the form of the Eucharist which is the center piece of Catholicism and which by the way, was often the last question which decided the fate of countless martyrs over multiple centuries, the question being " Is the Eucharist Jesus?" and the obvious answer being " no."

So Andie, let me ask you this question as I always find it helpful. When you hear the phrase " born again," what does that speicifcally mean to you? What does it mean to be born again which, as I know you know, Jesus said that we must be to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven? I think it would be helpful for all to hear your definition.......bro Frank

Hi Frank,

This tract explains what the Church has historically believed about Baptism being the means of being born again. Baptismal regeneration is biblical and has been taught in the Church for 2000 years.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/are-catholics-born-again

Hi TMK,

Isn't strange that we have the term " practising Catholic." I think the propestant world needs such a phrase :) Anyway, to answer your question I would say, yes. If one is practising Catholicism, one is working his way to heaven which is impossible. If a man or a woman has genuinly been born again, he will have the Spirit of truth in Him and the Spirit will lead and guide him or her into all truth, this is the Word of God. Now, there may be a process of coming out, I can certainly see that, but that would be for the very few. The vast majority of the millions of Catholics who have discovered the true Jesus as apposed to Eucharist, leave immediately.

I was asked by the dean of a " Christian college" one time why Catholics who come to Jesus in Mexico immediately leave the Catholic church and no longer want to be identified as a Catholic. I was amazed at this mans lack of knowledge and discerment. As I stated before, this is the slow march to the great whore church.........bro Frank

Fantastic!

greg this is why i was emphising correct theoligy is important ,,,,,this artical is a good example of exactly what i was talking about ,yet some how people didnt agree with it,,,,,,catholics have bad theoligy ,,so they redefined grace and changed the gosple in the process

jehova witnesses are another example of bad theoligy ,regarding bad christoligy ,bad phunomaoligy ,and a works based salvation ,,,,

we need good sound theoligy Brother Gary.

No amount of theology will save anyone. To imagine that it is so is in itself evidence of a lack of assurance of salvation. Assurance for most truly born again believers comes and goes like the wind which blows where it wills. Unless the Holy Spirit gives you a measure of revelation as to the substance of assurance you will only ever really know it when your deeds are truly righteous. Even then it may be of the mind and a deceived heart even to the one who is born again. This is because many lack true revelation as to the utter completion of the finished work of the Cross of Christ.

For some brethren they seem assured when their works are good and condemned when their works are bad. Neither is profitable. The one is vanity and the other is fear and a lack of knowledge. This is true for the Roman Catholic as it is for anyone who believes that Jesus was raised from the dead. This fact alone is an incomprehensible challenge to the natural mind and demands examination continuously on the part of the one who believes it. It cannot be believed unless the Father Himself reveals it by the Holy Spirit. For this reason there are many in the Roman Church who are as much saved as any of those who post on this site yet vainly imagine them selves to be spiritually minded.

Either understand this or else in the end you will have to give an account to God Himself as to why you have rejected that which He has called clean! Mercy lies in a knowledge of that which is to come. Rome will be utterly destroyed and the sheep will be scattered. This is because it has been apostate from the beginning. Yet for all that is has an end time prophetic purpose which is scarily understood by anyone.

Theology will accomplish nothing of itself.

HI Andie,

With all due respect, I am not going to read the tract. As you know, I could give you any number of tracts in response to any question, but we are having a discussion, not an exchange of tracts. So Andie, it seems that you believe that when you were baptized as an infant then you were born again. Can you tell us in your own words if that is true?..........Frank

Frank,

I can't force you to read the tract, but the reason I posted it is that it explains the biblical basis for the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration and how the doctrine was changed by the Anabaptist branch of the reformation. My belief about being born again is the Churches belief about being born again.

I would appreciate your feedback on how you disagree with the Catholic scriptural basis for this doctrine if you could read it.

You asked, do I believe I was born again when baptized as an infant? The answer is yes. I believe as a 3 year old when I was Baptized in a Ecumenical Church (Anglican, Methodist and Presbyterian) I was born again or from above.

Needless to say once I was old enough to be accountable I was not in any relationship with the Lord. My family didn't pray, read the Bible or attend Church except for funerals and occasionally Christmas. I was what you would call supernaturally dead.

Hi Andie,

So you believe that to be born again means to be sprinkled by some water as an infant or small child. Thanks again for your clarity. More than anything I wanted others on this site to see what Catholics actually believe when they use the term " born again."

So brothers ans sisters, you can see the vast gulf that exists between Catholics and those who are genuinly born again, that is why it is always important to define terms when speaking to catholics.

Andie, I have no idea what you mean when you use the phrase " supernaturally dead." If you give me your own understanding of why water baptism means to be born again then I will respond Andie. I am not trying to be difficult, but on matters of life and death one must be very sure and if not being born again means you go to hell, then you Andie, must be very clear in your head what it means and not just refer back to a tract or a youtube or a page from a Catholic apologetic site. Does that make sense. After all, its your eternal soul that we are speaking of......... Frank

I don't believe baptism is just sprinkling of water!

The Sacraments are spiritual gifts with a material component used as the vehicle by which the gift is brought to us. It is proper to man who is made up of body and soul. And the material components often are foreshadowed in the Old testament.

When I said I was supernaturally dead I meant that while I received the Holy Spirit in Baptism I had set my will against God by comitting serious sins since that time, for which I hadn't repented. As such I was I headed for hell.

Hi Andie, you wrote.........

"When I said I was supernaturally dead I meant that while I received the Holy Spirit in Baptism I had set my will against God by comitting serious sins since that time, for which I hadn't repented. As such I was I headed for hell."

So let me see if I have what you are saying. In obedience to John 3:5 which states that you must be born again of water and the Spirit, you were baptized as an infant or toddler and then after being baptized by at least the water part this led not to life but to spiritual death? Are you really saying that? Lets leave that for a second, we can always talk about the fact that everyone is born of the flesh( water) but one must be born of the Spirit ( therefore this water Jesus is talking about has nothing to do with baptism and that therefore in my scenario you are still dead in your sins at that point) later.

Later Jesus says, in the same chapter and on the same subject.........

Joh 3:15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Now the Greek word for " believe," here is pist-yoo-o. Its very important to realize the definition of that word. The word means " to have faith," and " to entrust." You see, it does not mean a mental assent to an abstract truth. It literaly means to have faith in and to entrust Jesus. And if you do that, the Scriptures tell us that you would not perish but that you would have eternal life.( assurance of salvation kicks in here) Now if Jesus commands that we must have faith in Him in order to be saved, is there another Scripture that would back that up?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9)

You see, man is saved by grace through faith and not of works. Will their be fruit from the man who is saved? Yes indeed. Can a man have works and and not have faith? Yes indeed, but he cannot have faith and and not have works. So to put it very simply, a man is born again of the Spirit by believing ( having faith, to put ones trust in) in the Lord Jesus Christ and trusting Him with our lives and eternal souls which leads to regeneration and a new man ( not theologically but actually) and a new creature in Christ where all things are made new.

In the above paragraph Andie you will see that a man must be saved by grace through faith in order to lead to the " works,' that the Scriptures speak of. And these works are not the Sacraments, they are God's work in men to mold them into the image of His Son. These works cannot begin until one is truly born again ( otherwise you would simply be a pharisee) therefore Justification precedes sanctification and must indeed do so, all else is the works of the flesh no matter how they are dressed up. Now Andie, have you been saved by grace through faith, born again of the Spirit, renewed, justified and in the process of sanctification and can you say that if you died this night that you would have the assurance that the Scriptures clearly state that we have? This is eternal life and death, it is the weightiest matter that you will ever consider and you conclusions will have eternal consequences..............Frank

Baptism is a spirit/water baptism. It is always been believed by the Church that baptism is how one receives new life, by receiving the very life of God in the Holy Spirit. I didn't "at least receive the water part".

Did baptism lead for death to me? No, certainly not! Spiritual death came to me by unrepentant SIN.

I can see from what you have written that you believe that the water in a spirit/water baptism refers to amniotic fluid. This argument was addressed in the tract I posted so I will leave it to your discretion whether you want to read this or not.

Yes I agree that we are bought to new life entirety by the Grace of God when we have faith and are baptized in the name of The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Initial justification in baptism is by faith through Grace and precedes any works.

What you have written about believing and trusting in Jesus is all true and important, but in historic Christianity this was never separated from Baptism. It is not a case of either/or, but of both.

Jimp,

Yes I have a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus. He has shown me who I truely am in Him. But I am also part of the Body of Christ and I believe God works through his body.

andrew theoligy maters much ,,in saying it doesnt matter,,is saying a man can believe anthyhing about god and still be saved ,,,,if i as a man teach and believe the theology of the jehovawittnes with a warped christolgy and twisted phunomaoligy ,,where is the power and presence of the holy spirit ,,,life and death is in the power of the toung,,,,,if you daughter comes to you and says dad your theology and doctrines about your god are erelevent and it doesnt matter ,,,,,dad iv been talking to some jehovawittnes and i dont believe in the trinity ,and think christ is only and angle named michel ,,,,are you going to say its ok darling you beleiev what you want about god theoilgy wont save you Brother Gary

A man can believe anything he wants about God. He can believe that He is a space man from another planet. Or that He doesn't even exists at all. Unless God Himself by the Holy Spirit reveals to a man that Jesus Christ died for sin and was raised from the dead, then that man may as well believe that he is a space man as well for all the good his theology will do him. It is by grace through faith and this alone is sufficient for salvation. If this understanding comes from God and it must come from God to be true, then theology is just another book to read or else burn to keep warm. The Roman Catholic Church is a true church whether we like it or not. It is not the theology which matters it is whether some truly believe. Begin with the man not the dead letter of theology. Find the man who in his heart truly believes that Jesus died for his sin and was raised for his justification and there you have found a believer....no matter where you may find him. The truth is that the vast majority of those who say they are born again don't even have an understanding of what is called theology. They simply believe and love God.

Stop making divisions and start serving then one night the man or woman who you have served with the love of Christ will remember what it is they believe and give thanks. Then they too will have assurance and press on unto glory taking others with them in their service. Service not theology. Compassion not knowledge. Faith not fancy. Love not pity.

The root question was can a Roman Catholic have assurance of salvation. The answer is really two fold. Do they truly know Christ individually? Are they serving Christ according to the royal commandment to love one another? If the question was a theological one then you would have to damn them all to hell. Not really a good attitude in view of the fact that the Roman Church has in it all the truth sufficient for life. The other groups you keep mentioning have none of the truth sufficient for life. It is a big mistake to condemn Roman Catholics out of hand because you happen to know that they have some false doctrines in the midst. They also have every tenet of sound truth sufficient to be born again to the one who seeks for God and is called according to His purposes.

HI Andie,

What is your definition of a personal relationship with Jesus? I am going to agree to disagree with you on the other matters for it seems that you are convinced in what you believe, even although it is inconsistant with Scripture as you have no personal assurance of your salvation.

By the way, just as an aside. What happens to babies who die prior to being baptized in your mind and do you have any Scripture to back up what you believe on that issue? No tracts or cut and paste please ( most Catholic apologists I have ever met, and I have met a lot of them, almost always refer you to literature. As I was taught as a Catholic not to read the Bible, I can see why. Think of that Andie, I was taught not to read the Bible. And I grew up in one of the most staunchest Catholic communities in the world) .............Frank

Frank,

I don't think we have covered the scriptural basis for assurance of salvation.

I have offered scripture to support justification as past, present and future, which you have not commented on.

I am not going to get into the other questions because although we have answered the question that, yes Catholics do not belief in the assurance of salvation, we haven't delved much deeper than that. As is often the way in threads in forums we jump all over the place from topic to topic.

If you could offer scriptural support for this belief I will comment on that. Although I don't know if I will be here much for the rest of the week, as have work commitments.

HI Andie,

Its not all over the place at all. These are logical progressions to the topic at hand. For instance, I gave you the context of John 3 and tied it to Eph 2:8-9. The key word from John 3:15 is that one must believe in order to have eternal life. You see it does say that if one believes then one shall not perish but have everlasting life. And right there, from Jesus Himself, He tells us that if we believe ( proper meaning of the word, word means to have faith) then we will have eternal life. You ignored that and Andie.

You also ignored the Eph 2:8-9 which says that a man is saved by grace through faith and not by works. What do you think it means to be saved. If you are drowning and I pull you from the water, are you saved or still in the water. And since that is not enough and you choose not to comment on that( I suspect the tract does not cover this, I dearly want you to think for yourself and give me your opinion on the Scriptures I just gave and my explanation ass opposed to your) then here are other Scriptures that you can tell me what you think it means..........

1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Okay Andie, this Scripture ties into John 3 and Eph 2, notice again the words that if you " believe," ( proper definition) that you will know that you have eternal life. You Andie, by your own admission do not know thereore according to this Scripture you have not believed to Salvation and you are yet in your sin.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Okay Andie, there is our favorite word again. And, according to Jesus, if you have believed then you have everlasting life and that you have passed from death to life. Since you say that you do not know that you have everlasting life, then you are wrong or Jesus is wrong. There is a Scripture that says let all men be liars and God be true. I am going to have to go with Jesus Andie and my your own confession, believe that you have not passed from death to life for if you had, you would know, you would have assurance that you had life and that eternally.

Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If a person has called upon the name of the Lord and believed in his heart then that person is saved.

John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand

If a man has believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth then he has eternal life according to Jesus.

2 Corinthians 13:5 - Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

I would exhort you to examine yourself in the light of the above Scriptures and bow your knee to what Jesus said, not the doctrines of man.

Romans 8:16 - The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

We can know and do know Andie. This who know Jesus know that they have eternal life and are at peace with this assurance.

Romans 8:1 - [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those who are in Christ Jesus, born again of the Spirit do not walk in condemnation and guilt, they walk in freedom because he who the Son sets free are free indeed. Are you free indeed Andie. Do you walk according to the Spirit without guilt and condemtaion knowing that nothing can seperate Gods children from His love?

1 John 5:5-8 - Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Have you overcome the world Andie, are you indeed dead to this world by beleiving in the true and Holy Jesus?

1 John 3:20 - For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

2 Timothy 1:12 - For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

You see the confidence of Paul? Why is he so confident, where does his assurance come from? It comes from beleiving and knowing the one he believes in, actually knowing Him. Do you actually know HIm Andie, and if that were so, why do you not know this peace and assurance of soul?

Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Again, one is either saved by trusting in Jesus completly or they are not.

Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved

Are you saved Andie and if you say yes, then what are you saved from? Are you saved from hell? Are you saved from sin? Are you saved from the world? What are you saved from??????

John 6:39 - And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Do you have peace through your justification Andie? For you claim that sanctification comes first therefore since you claim not to be justified then you cnnot have the peace that Paul speaks of.

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Have you came to Him Andie? Do you believe only the first half of this sentence? Do you presume to contradict Jesus. Would it not be better to contradict catholic theology that to be found contradicting God?

John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Does the wrath of God abide on you Andie? Can you say right now that you have everlasting life? Will you again reject the words of Jesus over the words of men? Andie, I have at least 20 more Scriptures that I could give you. All of them would challenge you to believe God and His word and not the doctrines and dogmas of men. Its your choice Andie, but you did ask for Scriptures and I gave them to you. ..................Frank

Hi Frank,

I am going to start with John 3:15 "That whoever believes in Him may have eternal life", which you feel suggests assurance of salvation, if 'believe' is correctly interpreted to imply faith and entrusting yourself to Jesus.

There are a couple of things I think you need to consider before taking 'assurance of salvation' from this passage.

1)You must persevere in faith to be saved.

Faith is a gift of God. No one can come to faith without the grace of God. I think we would both agree on that. But we can lose this gift according to scripture.

"Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith" (1Tim 1:18-19).

"Fight the good fight of the faith, take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses" (1Tim 6:12).

We have to live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end. We must submit both our intellect AND our will in order to have the 'obedience of faith' (Rom 1:5; Rom 16:26; John 3:36). And our faith must be 'working through love' (Gal 5:6).

The crown of life (eternal life) is for those who have patiently and faithfully endured the trials of life (James 1:12; 2Tim 4:8; Rev 2:10).

Hope is the confident expectation of divine blessing and the beatific vision of God (seeing God face to face), it is also the fear of offending God's love and incurring punishment (CCC 2090).

The two sins against hope are despair and presumption.

Despair is losing hope in our salvation by failing to trust God.

Presumption is losing hope by:

.relying on ourselves for our salvation instead of God, or
.taking God's mercy for granted.

Assurance of salvation seems to be a kind of presumption to me, a form of 'once saved always saved'. 'Hope' rather than 'assurance' is the lanuage of the bible (1Thess 5:8; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7). If we were assured of heaven we wouldn't need hope!

There is something else I want to say about this verse (which touches on something you have mentioned jimp),but I've run out of time, and then I will respond to the verse on faith and works.

:)

Hi Andie,

Just in case you did not know, I am Arminian in persausion so I have always believed that one can walk away from their salvation and I also believe in the perseverance of the saints. Yet this has nothing to do with assurance of salvation and the old question " If you died tonight where would you go." As a Catholic you must say that you do not where you would go, because if you said otherwise they would pronounce anathema over you, in other words you would be literaly cursed by the Catholic church.

So you can clearly see that there is no presumption in my statements, but there is a gaping lack of assurance in yours because you do not even know where you would go if you died in the next 30 seconds, can you see the difference? You cannot have joy in your salvation because you are not assured of it. The very thing that brings peace to the human soul is when their eternal state is known. I know exactly where I would go If I died this day. My salvation does not lie in cosmic scales, it is apprehended by the blood of the lamb. Now, if I were to turn my back on Jesus and deny Him and walk away from Him that is another matter. Can you see the difference? You can have it and walk away, you do not even know if you have anything, your scales may not weigh properly and you will go to hell. You may have, according to the Catholic church, have a mortal sin residing in you and therefore you will go straight to hell.

Andie, I gave you plenty of Scriptures that tell us that we can know, and you did not respond to them........bro Frank

You don't believe you will go to hell if you die with unrepented serious sins? Why do you think Jesus told us to 'watch therefore, for you know neither the day or the hour'. Or what about 'work out your salvation with fear and trembling.' Do you not believe you will face judgement like everyone else at the end of your life?

HI Andie,

Let me put it to you that those who love Jesus, who are close to the heart of God, do not walk around with " unrepented serious sin." My faith is in the Lord and His ability and desire to forgive me for all my sins.

Yes indeed the NT is full of warnings, I absolutely accept that and I definately agree that we must work out our salvation ( sanctification) with fear and trembling because one indeed can become a cast-away. None of that changes the fact that I have assurance of salvation. I have known Jesus, my Lord, my savior my closest friend for 21 years. I have never doubted, not even for a second, that I knew Him and that He saved me and that I knew where as I was going. I gave you the Scriptures to that effect to which you did not answer, the fact that you can know.

And again this is very different from your own confession that if you died 30 seconds from now you would have no idea where you would go. Let me just ask you straight out, are you living in sin? Do you have serious unrepented sin right now? If yes, why? Where is the Spirit of conviction, where is your fear and your trembling? Why would you trample underfoot the blood of Jesus with full knowledge? If not, can you tell us where you would go if you died 30 seconds from now? If you cannot tell us, why cant you tell us Andie? I await your answer to my unambiguous questions :) These are not designed to trap you Andie, but I do know the terrible doctrines of Catholicism having come out of that church...............Frank

I didn't ask if many of those who love Jesus walk around with unrepented serious sins. I asked if you believed you would go to hell if you died in that state. Because you implied that you were covered by the blood of the lamb, and I was relying on the scales balancing in my favour. And you seems to imply that the Catholic church was wrong in teaching if you die of unrepentant serious (mortal) sins you will go to hell.

We also rely on the redemption wrought by Jesus in the Catholic church. But we believe if you die in sin you will go to hell. We believe that you can fall from grace and have a need to be reconciled to the Lord. So do you believe you would go to hell if you died with unrepentant mortal sins?

And in answer to your question I have a pretty good idea of where I would go if I died in 30 seconds, because I examine my conscience regularly. As to whether I live in sin, I have only been a Christian for a couple of years, and I fall often. Not in being deliberately disobedient, but I have certain weaknesses to overcome with the help of God's grace.

And to be honest I don't feel the same need for 'assurance of salvation' that you do. I have a lot of peace after being a agnostic most of my life. It gives me joy knowing there is a God who is all good who loves us.

I am going to continue on with refuting that John 3:15 "That whoever believes in Him may have eternal life", affirms the doctrine of 'assurance of salvation'.

1) YOU MUST PERSEVERE IN FAITH TO BE SAVED

I have already discussed how faith must be lived out in love and obedience."If you love me you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15). We should live in confident hope, avoiding despair or presumption, which I have proposed is a feature of this 'assurance of salvation' doctrine

2) FAITH IS TIED TO BAPTISM

Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith AND baptism."Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved" (Mk 16:16).

Jimp and Frank, both of you have expressed some things about baptism I would like to refute. Jimp you have said a sincere profession of faith is salvific but baptism is not. And Frank, you suggested I may have been baptized only in water. That baptism is water only. You also said 'natural birth' is referred to as 'born of water' in John 3:15. I am taking it you mean becoming indwelt with the Holy Spirit is not associated with sacramental baptism, but rather with your faith (accepting God as your Lord and saviour). Please correct me if I have any of this wrong.

The reason I want to offer a refutation of these interpretations of baptism is because I see the doctrine of 'assurance of salvation' being flawed not just because:

a. You see salvation as a past event, and seem to imply there is no judgement. You have been saved, and are guaranteed not to fall.

b. But also because you see initial salvation and adoption as a child of God as being by grace through faith alone, which the Catholic church agrees with, but you don't acknowledge the biblical and traditional view that baptism is 'the sacrament of faith.

The Apostolic church, both East and West, has always taught that those who hear the gospel and believe, are catechised, then make a profession of faith and are baptized (with a few exceptions). Just because perseverance and baptism are not mentioned explicitly in every verse speaking on faith and eternal life, if your theology takes the whole bible into account, rather than plucking out verses here and there, it will show that baptism follows belief and that faith must persevere to the end.

WE ARE BORN AGAIN WITH FAITH AND A WATER/SPIRIT BAPTISM

"Truely, truely, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

Frank you have said 'born of water' refers to our natural birth. My response to that is:

a. The syntax of this verse suggests that Jesus is speaking, not of two separate births, one by water and another by the spirit, but of a single birth through the water and spirit together (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible).

b. John links Spirit/water is other versus (John 7:38-39; John 1:33). And other NT passages describe baptism as a sacrament through the Spirit ( Acts 2:38; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 3:20-21).

c. This single sacramental Spirit/water baptism continued on through the Apostolic age to the Church Fathers.

""' and dipped himself', say [the scriptures], seven times in the Jordon. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new born babes, even as the Lord declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven (Irenaeus fragment , 34 ( AD 190).

d. Biblical events prefigure salvation through water. This is from 'the blessing of baptismal waters' from the liturgy of the Easter Vigil:

"Father, you gave us grace through Sacramental signs which tell us of the wonders of your unseen power. In baptism we use your gift of water which you made a rich symbol of the grace you give us in this Sacrament. At the very dawn of creation, your Spirit breathed on the waters, making them the wellspring of all holiness. The waters of the great flood you made a sign of the waters of baptism, that make an end to sin and a new beginning of goodness. You freed the children of Abraham from the slavery of Pharaoh, bringing them dry-shod through the waters of the red sea, to be an image of the people set free in baptism...'.

BAPTISM IS SALVIFIC NOT JUST SYMBOLIC

Jimp, you and Frank seem to see baptism as an empty ritual, and I get the impression from your words that you think I believe water has power as of itself. Please know that I believe God washes away my sins. He does it through grace, because through baptism we enter into communion with Christs death and resurrection (1 Pet 3:21; Rom 6:3-8; Rom 4:25; Gal 2:20; Gal 5:24; Gal 6:14). It is through Christ that our redemption comes.

The first converts after Pentecost..."Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus for the FORGIVENESS OF SINS; and you shall receive the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

"He who believes and is baptized will BE SAVED" (MK 16:16).

"Arise and be baptized, and WASH AWAY YOUR SINS (Acts 22:16).

"Baptism, which corresponds to this (baptism), now SAVES YOU (1Pet 3:21).

I think it is difficult to read these verses and tell people they have be saved by either: a prayer after an alter call or an emotional/spiritual 'feeling' that God has saved you.

Hi Andie, you write........

"b. John links Spirit/water is other versus (John 7:38-39; John 1:33). And other NT passages describe baptism as a sacrament through the Spirit ( Acts 2:38; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet 3:20-21)."

Lest look at the Scriptures that you say refers to water baptism in the context of John 3:5...

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

As you can see from a plain reading that this Scripture has zero to do with water baptism Andie, it has to do with the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Here is great proofs against infant baptism. One must be convicted of sin, repent, and then as an outward sign be baptized in water in the name of Jesus. No baby can do that.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

You see Andie, this Scripture refers not to infants and babies, it refers to the thieves and drunkards and such who were gloriously saved and changed and had joy unspeakable.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

This scripture actually states that he that " believes," shall be saved. Again, Scripture is not broken, water baptism is a symbolic sign to the world of one who has believed and is justifed in the sight of God.

Andie, Jimp and I are speaking to your not knowing that if you died right now where you are going. You may ignore this question time and again, but its not going away Andie. If you die 30 seconds from reading this where will you go? Now I am not talking about some possible sin you may get into in the future, and I am assuming that you are not walking in " serious sin," I am talking about right now. This is the heart of this thread but it speaks volumes to the nature of what one believes. I believe there is not a single saint on this forum who could not answer that question Andie. Its not an unreasonable question dont you think? ...................bro Frank

Hi Jimp,

What do you mean by "John's baptism was the old test?" and "pictures of baby dedication but as Jesus said they are condemned already?" Sorry can you expand a little on that, I'm sure what you are referring to there.

You also say "the important baptism on the new covenant is being baptized into his blood."

Yes I totally agree with you there. I have written about that at length in a previous post.

Frank,

"Out of his heart shall flow RIVERS OF LIVING WATER." Now this he said about the SPIRIT which those who believed in him were to receive....(John 7:38-39)

This prophecy seems to relate to Zechariah 14:8 "On that day living water shall flow out from Jerusalem". During the Feast of Tabernacles there was a water liberation ritual where water flows from the sanctuary. This ritual is prefigured in the garden (sanctuary) of eden (the temple of creation). And looks forward to the sanctuary of heaven (the temple of God), where he pours out his Spirit (living water) from his 'heart' when he is glorified (John 7:39). A clearer picture of this heavenly picture can be seen by looking at Ezek 47:1-12 and Rev 22:1-2.

"He who sent me to BAPTISE WITH WATER said to me 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who BAPTIZES WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

You have said scripture does not refer to baptism of babies, so I will give my defence of this practice.

WHOLE HOUSEHOLDS ARE BAPTIZED

You have quoted Acts 2:37 and 2:38 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the Apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost".

But if we read on we sees he continues..."For this promise is to you AND TO YOUR CHILDREN. The Apostles baptized entire households (Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33; 1 Cor 1:16).

"For he came to save all through means of Himself, all I say, who through Him are born again to God - infants, and children, and boys and youth, and old men." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2,22:4 ( AD 180)

ORIGINAL SIN

The reason infants are baptized is as Catholics we believe in the doctrine of 'Original Sin'.

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5)

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, so death spread to all men because all men sinned." (Rom 5:12)

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience, many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:19)

There is no dogmatic teaching on the fate of non baptized infants, although limbo was proposed in the past. We now tend to say, we entrust them to the mercy of God. But we believe in original sin and the church advises to baptize infants.

"For this reason, moreover, the Church received from the Apostles the tradition of baptizing infants too" Origen, Homily on Romans v9 (AD 244).

"Baptism is given for the remission of sins; and according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. And indeed if there were nothing infact which required a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous." Origen Homily on Levities 8:3 (AD 244)

A CIRCUMCISION WITHOUT HANDS

"In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ; and you were buried with him in BAPTISM, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead." (Col 2:11-12)

The sign of the Abrahamic covenant was a circumcision of the flesh (Gen 17). But the Lord promises to circumcise our hearts, so that we will love the Lord God with all our heart and soul (Deut 30:6). He will 'wash us with hyssop' and blot out our iniquities (Psalm 51:7-9), by the blood of the lamb when we are baptized into his death. And renew a right Spirit within us (Psalm 51:10), when he pours his love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit (Rom 5:5).

That 8 day old infant boys were circumcised in the old covenant has traditionally been seen as another reason baptism should not be delayed. Also a covenant view of scripture is consistent with this.

"But in respect of the case of the infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, and that law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think one is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day...And therefore dear brother, this was our opinion in council, that by us no one ought to be hindered from baptism...we think is to be even more observed in respect of infants and newly-born persons (Cyprian to Disuse, Epistle 58 (64): 2,6 (AD 251)

Frank you must know I am not going to pronounce my final judgement, I will leave that to God, and live with joyful hope. But thank you for your concern, I understand where you are coming from.

Sorry, I think I explained John 7:37-38 a little bit wrong. Because it says "Out of OUR heart shall flow living water". So it's referring to US receiving the Spirit which 'is like a spring bubbling up to eternal life". In John 7:37 Jesus says on the last day of the feast of tabernacles "If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink". Because he is the source of the Spirit, through the Father, as it shows in Rev 22 "The water of life flows from the Throne of God and the Lamb. As the Niceno-Constantinopolitian creed says "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the the Father and the Son".

I hope it is clear though why the Catholic church sees the water and Spirit of baptism in this way, even though I know you interpretate it differently. And I know you interprete Revelation differently too.

Hi Andie, I quoted the Scriptures that you gave me and showed that they had nothing to do with water baptism. Can I ask you why you quoted them Andie?

You see, you refer back to creeds to tell you about the baptism of the Holy Spirit and to explain to you Scriptures. Genuinly born again Christians live the Scriptures Andie. I have this living water that the Scriptures talk about. I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit with gifts, that's a far cry from kissing the Bishops ring when I was 11. Its not about speaking the words or quoting men's opinions, its about the living true reality of Jesus to change a man or woman from the inside out and to baptize them with His Holy Spirit to empower them to witness. Again, you are the one who quoted Acts and I am the one who is commenting on the Scriptures you gave Andie? Are you merely cutting and pasting or did you look up and study these Scriptures to show yourself approved?

A few posts back you said I was all over the place, now you are in danger of the same Andie. This thread is not about original sin, its about assurance of salvation. For if one is not saved everything else is a moot point would you not agree? I really must insist that you answer the question that I posed to you, and remember, people are reading this from all over the world and want to hear your answer. If you were to die 30 seconds from reading this, where would you go and why? Failure to answer this question is a testimony in and of itself. I am sure that there are many saints praying that the Lord would reveal the great truth to you about salvation and the assurance that comes with it. I am certain even now that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you Andie. Please do not resist Him, the Scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into all Truth, not a man, not a pope, but God Himself speaking to the hearts of man. When Jesus met the woman at the well, she tried to embroil Him in a religious controversy, yet He was only interested in her heart and He spoke to her heart. I believe that the Lord is speaking to your heart Andie. I love you and I am praying for you........Frank

Frank,

I actually said nothing about John 7:37-39 or John 1:33 being about baptism in the original post. I said they show how John associates water and Spirit.

You misquoted me your next post, saying the verses had nothing to do with baptism, when I had not even suggested they had. And in this last post I expanded on one of the versus, to show how I felt it linked water and the Holy Spirit in more detail.

I'm not cutting and pasting. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that. My computer is my phone so I don't think I can anyway. I am trying to present the Catholic position on this issue, and I use the catechism, bible commentaries, and books. I'm not trying to show myself approved, I am trying to educate myself and offer what I hope is an Orthodox explaination from a Catholic perpective, since the OP related to Catholism. And I am actually finding having to answer your questions is helping me learn more too.

Now with original sin, I presented that because in the post before you were saying that you shouldn't baptise infants, original sin is one of the reasons why we do baptise infants! That's why I was discussing it. I'm sorry if that was not clear.

Yes I referred back to the creed because I had not made the connection before between the stream in Revelation being a picture of the Holy Spirit! For me experience is not opposed to scripture and doctrine. You can be deceived in both.

Frank, I would prefer it if you stopped asking me the thirty second question all the time, because I have already answered it. I don't have certainty, but I have hope.

HI Andie, you wrote.........

"Frank, I would prefer it if you stopped asking me the thirty second question all the time, because I have already answered it. I don't have certainty, but I have hope."

Obviously you had not answered it but now you have. So in your previous answers you said that you cannot have assurance of salvation because you might, in the future, have some " serious unrepented sin," your phrase. Well, I took the future aspect out of your answer to see where you stand right now. And you have answered and I thank you for finally answering what I already knew Catholics believe.

Most Catholic believe if they died right now they would go to hell or purgatory because they are not good enough. Since purgatory does not exist, then the reality of a Catholic is a dreadful one of fear for eternal soul. It is a terrible bondage. I already knew that having grown up as a Catholic in a Catholic community, which I believe you have not? Andie, I pray that you find freedom in Jesus. The Lord says that " He whom the Son sets free is free indeed." You have acknowledged that you are in bondage and have no freedom.

It seems to me Andie that since you have acknowledged that if you got ran over by a bus today that you would more than likely end up in hell, then there is nothing really more to say. I have given you countless Scriptures to refute this, now you must reconcile what the word of God says as opposed to the doctrines and traditions of men. I obviously pray that you will have your break-through. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this with you, to go further in this vein I believe would be fruitless. Take care Andie...........Frank

I'm afraid you have misquoted me again. I will try and explain:

The reason ANYONE would go to hell is if they die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love. I am still unsure if YOU believe mortal sin is the cause of someone's decent into hell.

I asked YOU if you died with unrepentant serious sins would YOU or any other 'salvation assured' Christians go to hell? Which you haven't answered as yet.

As for me, as I said, I have a good idea of where I would go based on my conscience. I repent, resolve to amend my life with the help of God's grace as necessary, and Jesus forgives me on account of his sorrowful passion. As Paul says "even if I am not aware of anything against myself" I still have joyful hope, rather than judging in place of God.

"But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I AM NOT THEREBY ACQUITTED. IT IS THE LORD THAT JUDGES ME. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light all the things hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. And then every man shall receive his commendation from God (1 Cor 4:3-5).

Ron writes............

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

Isn't that beautiful? Justification is not a process of renewal; justification is God’s decisive verdict of forgiveness and righteousness that assures Christian believers of the acceptance and love of their heavenly Father.

Now believers, cleansed by faith in His blood, can go on and serve God with all their heart without constantly worrying whether they are doing it adequately or not.

Agustus Toplady had it right when he penned Rock of Ages;

Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling.
Naked look to Thee for dress,
Helpless look to Thee for grace.
I the foul one, to Your fountain fly,
Wash me Jesus, or I die.

Amen Ron............bro Frank

Hi Ron,

I have posted a link to a short summary of the Catholic view of "Can you lose your Salvation" and it addresses Justification, it's very brief, but he has written a book also on the Catholic perspective on Paul which I would like to read at some stage myself actually.

http://pauliscatholic.com/2009/09/can-you-lose-your-salvation/

Frank I know you said you didn't like exchanging tracts, but sometimes it's easier to follow and clearer, and easier for me :) I don't really want to get into a prolonged discussion on Justification so I am going to try and wrap up my participation in this thread now. I think I have covered the main points. And you can look up anything in the Catechism!