Why is.......

Again why is Israel more important than tbe persecuted church?

Bearmaster.

_______________

Bear has someone on this site said this to you? You keep making threads like this one, I know you had another thread recently about Israel and I just wonder who is saying these things to you. I do not recall anyone here on SI saying anything like this? Are these things being said by those in your life around you?

OF course we pray for the persecuted church and of course we pray for those who are lost in Israel as well as other countries around the world. GOD calls us to pray for the lost, I believe the lost sheep of Israel still matter to HIM and I believe HE loves and cares for the persecuted church around the world. Don't you believe HE is big enough to hold both in HIS hands and care for them both?? I am asking because you seem to keep implying that it must be one or the other with your threads and it is confusing to me??

God bless
mj

Bear,

You bring up a subject that at its heart is a perplexing one: is God's will hampered by lack of prayers? Or, is God manipulated by the volume of prayers prayed for any situation? Is God's success in bringing about his will dependent upon the prayers of his people?

Or, is prayer something else?

I ponder...

ginnyrose

Hi,
I dont think anyone is saying that Israel is more important than the Church persecuted or not.
The question should be are we praying in "Spirit and in Truth"?I can pray for the Church and Israel.
God has plans for the church which include the nation of Israel.Jews have to be born again like all other heavenly dwellers but the nation of Israel has been regathered for the time of the end,of this their is no doubt.
We have and always have had persecuted Christians and we will have persecuted Christians in the future.This fact is nothing new.God will reward them,their is no doubt.
This isnt a Church vs Israel match up.The Church is a group of people who are saved and we are going to heaven,Israel is a nation beloved of God of which he has a plan for like all other nations but Israel is beginning to take on a central role as the end comes as the bible says it would.Only if the people of Israel turn to him will they be saved by grace just like the rest of us,
Yours Staff

I am offering a link to an article that may help seekers of truth in regard to Israel.

May the Holy Spirit enlighten the eyes of our understanding as we read it(Ephesians 1:18).

http://98.131.162.170/tynbul/library/TynBull_1975_26_03_France_OTProphecyIsrael.pdf

May God bless your eyes! (Matthew 13:16)

Sorry to disappoint you Bearmaster.

I do hope you will work through it.

There's no quick fix to get truth.

So I write again, may the Holy Spirit enlighten our eyes of understanding. We know that He has promised to lead us and guide us into all truth.

"And leaving them, He went out of the city to Bethany, and lodged there. And returning early to the city, He hungered.
And seeing one fig tree by the road, He went up to it, and found nothing on it except leaves only. And He said to it, Let there be no more fruit from you forever. And the fig tree immediately withered." Matthew 21:17-19

"Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever (ou mēketi sou karpos genētai eis ton aiōna). Strictly speaking this is a prediction, not a prohibition or wish as in Mark 11:14 (optative phagoi). “On you no fruit shall ever grow again” (Weymouth). The double negative ou mē with the aorist subjunctive (or future indicative) is the strongest kind of negative prediction. It sometimes amounts to a prohibition like ou and the future indicative (Robertson, Grammar, pp. 926f.). The early figs start in spring before the leaves and develop after the leaves. The main fig crop was early autumn (Mark 11:14). There should have been figs on the tree with the crop of leaves. It was a vivid object lesson. Matthew does not distinguish between the two mornings as Mark does (Mark 11:13, Mark 11:20), but says “immediately” (parachrēma) twice (Matt. 21:19, Matt. 21:20). This word is really para to chrēma like our “on the spot” (Thayer). It occurs in the papyri in monetary transactions for immediate cash payment." - R.W.P.

"All the difficulty in the text may be easily removed by considering that the climate of Judea is widely different from that of Great Britain. The summer begins there in March, and the harvest at the passover, as all travelers into those countries testify; therefore, as our Lord met with this tree five days before the passover, it is evident,

1) That it was the time of ripe figs: and,
2) That it was not the time of gathering them, because this did not begin till the passover, and the transaction here mentioned took place five days before.

For farther satisfaction on this point, let us suppose:

I. That this tree was intended to point out the state of the Jewish people.

1. They made a profession of the true religion.
2. They considered themselves the peculiar people of God, and despised and reprobated all others.
3. They were only hypocrites, having nothing of religion but the profession - leaves, and no fruit.

II. That our Lord’s conduct towards this tree is to be considered as emblematical of the treatment and final perdition which was to come upon this hypocritical and ungodly nation.

1. It was a proper time for them to have borne fruit: Jesus had been preaching the doctrine of repentance and salvation among them for more than three years; the choicest influences of Heaven had descended upon them; and every thing was done in this vineyard that ought to be done, in order to make it fruitful.

2. The time was now at hand in which God would require fruit, good fruit; and, if it did not produce such, the tree should be hewn down by the Roman axe.

Therefore,

1. The tree is properly the Jewish nation.
2. Christ’s curse the sentence of destruction which had now gone out against it; and,
3. Its withering away, the final and total ruin of the Jewish state by the Romans.

His cursing the fig tree was not occasioned by any resentment at being disappointed at not finding fruit on it, but to point out unto his disciples the wrath which was coming upon a people who had now nearly filled up the measure of their iniquity.

A fruitless soul, that has had much cultivation bestowed on it, may expect to be dealt with as God did with this unrighteous nation. - Clarke

Hi,
The question asked was:
Why is Israel more important than tbe persecuted church?
The answer is it isnt more important than the church.Their is no such a thing as the persecuted church just the church.This is another makey uppey term that causes a division of the body that god doesnt see.
This term has gained legs promoted wrongly by this website in my opinion but it is an unbiblical term.I think I understand why people use it though.
As to the point behind your question is their an end times role for the nation "Israel"? Answer:1900 years -Balfour declaration-Holocaust-1947 independance-1967 six day war,Jerusalem back in Jewish hands.
What that role is may be disputed by some but it will have a role.
Israel is beloved of God because God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,that includes Israel,
Yours Staff

great stuff staff,we need to understand that Jesus said that He did not come to do away with the old covenant... the Father is a covenant keeping God and the jews are in the same covenant that was cut centuries before Christ. we have a new and better covenant with better promises and a beeter shedding of blood ...a far greater sacrifice.All of the promises are yea and amen in Jesus.jimp

I cannot believe that Israel is more important than "His church" dear brother. Circumcision is of the heart, and a jew is one who is one inwardly. Man looks at the outward appearance, while God looks at the heart. Why some suffer more than others is not for me to judge (and I'm not saying that this is what you are implying dear brother). God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts higher than our thoughts, especially when it comes to His divine providences.

Bearmaster,

Why is Israel more important than the persecuted church?

I have to echo what Mary Jane asked: WHO are you talking about? I haven't read anyone here who has made any such proclamation. If you didn't really hear someone say this, then you are presenting what is known as a "straw man."

From the various threads that you have participated in over this issue, I think that most have made it clear that the Church is more important than the physical nation of Israel -- and that physical Jews need to come to Christ (because NO MAN will come to the Father except through the Son).

Why do more prayers go up for Israel than for the persecuted believers suffering for Christ?

How can you even ask a question like this? You cannot measure the amount of prayers that are uttered and then compare the prayers that go up for Israel and the persecuted Church.

I hear people wail over the attricities perpetrated against Israel. Whenever Jews are killed they are considered as martyrs on a same scale as those who suffer for Christ.

Can you provide a single citation where believers have equated persecution of Jews on the same scale as those who suffer for Christ? Where are you "hearing" this?

Let me be clear: Not every person who is killed -- Jew or Gentile -- are "martyrs." There is a precise definition of the concept "martyr." A martyr is someone who is killed for their religious beliefs. A Jews can be killed because of their race, ethnicity, political views or other reasons. That doesn't make them a "martyr."

Yet, at the same time, it is still a tragedy when someone is killed. The holocaust was a tragic thing because of the immense hatred for Jews by some who felt it was a much-needed "final solution." In truth, they were workers and devices of Satan.

Just because you hear someone declare that the murder of Jews is a terrible thing does not mean that they are equating it to "martyrdom." It is simply tragic for a reason other than a murder because of one's faith.

Yes, many weep for Israel. Who weep for the persecuted? I mean the true believers who lay down their lives for Christ.

I think that most believers who are aware of the persecuted Church will pray for or weep over those who lay down their lives for Christ.

It has been said that Israel is more important than the persecuted church.

Really? Who said it? Please let me know so we can set those individuals straight!

Seriously: I would really like to know who keeps telling you these things!

To be clear: I haven't heard anyone here at SermonIndex claim that Israel (the physical nation) are "more important" than the persecuted Church.

Now, I would like to bring up something in regard to what some others have spoken about in regard to Israel in this thread.

I mentioned this in one of the other threads about this subject. Romans chapter 11 is quite clear in the distinction between physical Jews and believers who were grafted into the Vine to become spiritual Jews.

The covenant that God made with the physical nation of Israel still stands. Does that mean that they are "saved?" By no means! In fact, Paul says that Israel has been "hardened" until the "fullness of the Gentiles" is complete. At that point, all of Israel will be saved.

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery — so that you will not be wise in your own estimation — that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 11:25-30

Calvinists and those who embrace a "once saved-always saved" philosophy often will quote Romans 11:29 as evidence about how one cannot "lose" their salvation. Yet, in context, this verse pertains to the physical nation of Israel and the covenant that God made with them.

Throughout this chapter (and the other chapters in Romans regarding Israel), Paul quotes unfulfilled prophecies from the Old Covenant and applies them to the physical nation of Israel. In other words, there is still a distinction between Jews and the other people of this world.

Since being a "child of Abraham" is a spiritual thing, it is important for evangelism to be performed among Jews. Why? Jews need to come to the Son. This is why the apostles evangelized Jews...and preached the "Good News" to them. Jews need Jesus.

However, the covenant that God made with the Jews will not go unfulfilled. God will not break His promises. Jesus didn't come to break the old Covenant. Our Lord simply offered us a BETTER covenant -- one that is eternal and not dependent upon race, ethnicity, circumcision or fulfilling the dots and tittles of Mosaic Law. Our covenant is one of grace through faith. And, most importantly, this New Covenant faith must be based solely upon the blood of Christ Jesus, the Son of the Living God.

So, again, the physical nation of Israel is certainly not as important as the persecuted church! Yet, I will say this: I do not weep for the persecuted church as I do the people of this world who might die without Jesus. You see, when a believer dies, the sorrow is for a different reason. They may be passing away through torture or horrible circumstances, but it is light and momentary when compared with what is waiting on the other side of the "glass darkly." Not so for others! We weep for those who die without Christ because their death is eternal.

I am not sure what has motivated the question in the original post. I haven't seen this question at SermonIndex. I would hope that it isn't a "straw man" argument. Perhaps the original poster should clarify just who he is speaking about. Are these individuals that Bearmaster speaks about local to where Bearmaster lives or members of some other online forum? It certainly doesn't seem like the sentiment that has been expressed here.

Bearmaster,
Sometimes it appears that way to me also, but when I bring the question up I am assured that it is not the case.
Just today in church I heard the statement that God loves the Jew and His church. This bothers me. Not because I don't like Jews, but because the message we are telling the Jewish people is that they are more special than the rest of the world because of their blood.

Since our last discussion on this matter I have been reading and thinking about this topic constantly. The church that I attend is very pro-Israel. Just about every message the nation of Israel is brought up, but rarely do I hear about the church around the world especially of those who are suffering for Christ. If nothing else the appearance is that the nation of Israel is more important. I frankly do not get it.

I heard the other day that God has two brides. National Israel and the church. I about fell out of my chair.

If I were a Jew and I heard statements like that I would be utterly confused. My identity would be found in Abraham and does not need to found in Christ.

We are kidding ourselves if we don't think that is the message we are sending to Jewish people.

Brother Bear I would like to share this with you.

About 10 years ago I maintained a bulletin board on the persecuted church at the church I attended. I had gotten permission to use a large 4x8 board in the main hallway.

At first I had a small world map in the center and I would post articles of persecution with strings from the article to the map. I was able to leave the article up 3 to 4 weeks before I needed the space. As time went on I had to remove the map because there were too many articles. Then the time I could leave each up became shorter. When I left that church about 3 years later I could only leave the articles up 1 week. I completely changed the articles on a 4x8 board and the surrounding wall I had to use to get them all in once a week.

After I had been doing the board for a few months my pastor asked why I didn't post any "happy" news. (I had the few that came, like the Eritrean contemporary Christian singer that was released after being held in the shipping crate and tortured until she now has difficulty walking, but there weren't many.) But it wasn't enough apparently. My response was to look at the other "happy" boards in the hall and ask if they had been told their board were too happy and needed balance? I continued to post what was happening.

People would check the board but I think in some ways it was overwhelming for many of them. There wasn't much they felt they could do ~ yes, I know pray but most people want to DO something. They also don't want to think it could happen here.

I would venture to say many on SI do pray for those persecuted. I still do.

I also pray for Israel. The Lord gave me a burden for Israel more than 20 years ago. Long before it was "fashionable". And I have prayed for PM Netanyahu since long before he was the prime minister.

I believe we can't all pray for everything so the Lord gives us a few things to be faithful in. Some are struggling just to pray for their family. Some have a huge burden for the lost. Others the nation. He has given you the persecuted. Let us strive to hear Him say, "Well done" with the task He has given us and not worry about what someone else is given.
REJOICE! =)
Mary

Hi Bearmaster,
The term "persecuted church" term has gone way beyond just being a descriptive term.We have sermons,threads and conferences claiming that their is an entity called the persecuted church which their is not.Their are people in the church that are persecuted which is different.The term really means that we have "Christians"=the church and "super Christians"=the persecuted Church.
Why dont we say pray for people that are" persecuted in the church" rather than pray for "the persecuted church" if it is only descriptive and their is no agenda behind it.
People say that our tribulation view does not effect our views on other aspects of the church but it does; rightly or wrongly.If we believe one trib view then we think one way and if we have another view we think another way.
Yours Staff

Greetings Bear

I do wish you would reply to my post it was at the beginning of the thread. I hope I did not offend you with my question, it was not my intention to do so. In my prayers I pray for everyone here on SI often and it seems by your threads this is been on your heart so I wonder who it is who is saying all these things to you? If it is those you fellowship with in life perhaps it is time to find new fellowship?? I will be praying for you...don't let what others around you say cause you confusion GOD does love the lost Jews in the world just as much as HE loves you and I and HE wishes that none would parish. Of course GOD wants us to pray for one another and for the lost so we should be seeking to follow the leading HE gives us each day and places on our hearts. I know many who pray for the body of CHRIST as well as for those who are lost in the world today and I believe FATHER hears our prayers. Just pray for those who seem to be saying to you that you must choose one over the other and cling to HIS heart...pray for both lost Jew and Gentile so that JESUS might have HIS reward!!

God bless
maryjane

by Approved on 2012/12/3 4:48:47

WHO are you talking about?

For example, if we were in this situation we would be no different than what the Apostle Peter did centuries before, if the situation were to be presented we would be just like him. If there was a choice to please a Jewish man versus a gentile man we would choose the Jewish man because there is more prestige and honour than being with a gentile pig. If our affections are upon the Jews and we say we wouldn't do that, we are only kidding ourselves because the heart is above all deceitful desperately wicked, who can comprehend it?

The reason why I speak so hard against this is because the Church of Jesus Christ is the Apple of God's Eye. We think of the Church that is separate from Christ, Christ is the body, we are simply members. God is the Tree, Christ is the BRANCH and we are the limbs that are connected. Some of the Jewish branches fell off because of unbelief (not all, thank God). We have in our thinking that God has more favour toward those who are not connected to the BRANCH than the Church, this is erroneous.

We were grafted in to those places that fell off but the same BRANCH has both Jew and Gentile in it. There is no separation between the races. When a Jew believes he is grafted into the vine, when a gentile believes he is grafted into the vine. We should not have more affection for one class of people, that is wrong. All have sinned, thus all need salvation, to the Jew first and also to the gentile.

_______________

I have not heard or read anyone here at SI respond as saying GOD loves Israel more or that HE favors Israel more or that they show more affections toward Israel then they do the church??? So I asked who it was that was saying these things. He has chosen not to answer that is fine. I do not want to push any further. I just hope he knows I will pray for him and that GOD will help clear the confusion he seems to be struggling with.

We are all one bride, one body, one church...and we belong to JESUS let us pray for one another while it is still today, encouraging each other to follow KING JESUS!!

God bless
maryjane

Hi Bearmaster,
Their is an agenda here,their is a growing structure too called "the persecuted church" a term not used in the bible.
It is a by product of believing a living through the tribulation,no end times revival,their is only going to be a few of us real christians prepared type Christian view.
It is also a reaction to the blab it and grab it toronto,kansas prophet type movements.
At the moment we are saying things like
"Yet many professing believers sit content in tbeir comfortable American Christianity thinking this is New Testament."
The next step will be to say "well they are not really christian at all"
We are making two classes of Christians that makes it devisive.Your blaming western Christians for not living in north korea,ethopia etc.
If their wasnt an agenda we would term things differently
but the fact that we cant get away from the term "the persecuted church" makes it suspicous.
Yours Staff

hi, God is going to establish the new jerusalem where i am going to rule and reign with Him.not the new new york or london.jews need Jesus and i have many friends who have come to Jesus from judahism.jews make wonderful christians becaus they have brains and understand the culture.;jimp

Bearmaster,

I have been on prayer initiatives and conference calls that have come out and said that Israel was tbe center of redemptive history. These believers have said Israel is God's prophetic time clock. Everything hinges and centers on Israel.

While I understand your complaint about the views expressed (or implied) during conference calls, it still doesn't mean that those individuals are guilty of perpetuating the accusation that you brought forth in your first post in this thread (or in the other threads about Israel).

You said:

Why is Israel more important than tbe persecuted church?

Why do more prayers go up for Israel than for the persecuted believers suffering for Christ?

I hear people wail over the attricities perpetrated against Israel. Whenever Jews are killed they are considered as martyrs on a same scale as those who suffer for Christ.

This explanation doesn't touch on what you said. What caused you to connect the dots between a few words uttered in "prayer initiatives" and "conference calls" (voicing a notion that the physical nation of Israel is a "timetable" or "prophetic clock") and people thinking that physical Israel is "more important than the persecuted believers who suffer for Christ" or that murdered Jews are "considered as martyrs on the same scale as those who suffer for Christ."

Who said -- or even implied -- THOSE things?

Were you just supposing these things?

Who accused you of being "antisemitic?"

Brother Bearmaster:

Honestly Chris you are just too much. Sit back. Relax. Take some deep breaths. And focus on Jesus.

Bearmaster.

I say this with real concern. As an observer, I have felt that you have a tendency to sensationalize issues (or responses to your posts) in the forums. Even with this response, I am perplexed with this response. Let me assure you: I am sitting back...relaxed...I breathe well...and I focus upon Jesus.

Since you became a member here, I have asked questions to you regarding sources or rationale for the accusations or claims that you have made. I have often notice that you have a tendency to respond either as a "victim" (without ever validating or answering questions about your claim) or "go on the offense." Most of the time, I feel that you ignore the clear questions asking for clarity regarding the specific accusations or claims that you have made.

You made a sensational claim about being accused of being anti-semitic (among other things) for holding the view that you presented. Mary Jane and I have asked you for clarity regarding this.

Brother, things don't always follow an "either/or" scenario that you seem to present. Just because someone might feel that Israel plays a role in the timetable of Biblical eschatology or they voice a need to pray for Israel, it doesn't mean that they don't also pray for the persecuted church. I hope that this makes a little more sense.

I still have questions about the things that you said. This was why I presented the questions that I asked. I can't tell if you are presenting an actual claim or a straw man created to make some sort of point. As believers, I feel that we must be pure in our words and avoid pretense even in such things.

Hi Approved:

I am at peace in Christ. However, I still asked a legitimate question about the claim that Bearmaster made.

____________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"I believe we can't all pray for everything so the Lord gives us a few things to be faithful in. Some are struggling just to pray for their family. Some have a huge burden for the lost. Others the nation. He has given you the persecuted. Let us strive to hear Him say, "Well done" with the task He has given us and not worry about what someone else is given.
REJOICE! =)"
____________________________________________________________

This has been my stance for a long time. Physically, one has only so much time. It is impossible to pray for everyone that needs our prayers which is why I asked a question that was left unanswered: is God's will hampered by lack of prayers? Or, is God manipulated by the volume of prayers prayed for any situation? Is God's success in bringing about his will dependent upon the prayers of his people?

ginnyrose

Some have a huge burden for the lost. Others the nation. He has given you the persecuted. Let us strive to hear Him say, "Well done" with the task He has given us and not worry about what someone else is given.

In following this thread, I have been wondering … why so much emphasis on the persecuted church when there are millions who have never heard this gospel for the first time in their lives, and that wasn’t brought into the discussion in comparison for prayers for Israel. If the persecuted church is martyred, those souls will spend eternity with God. Those souls who have never heard may likely never hear, and have to spend eternity in hell. Temporary pain vs eternal pain … truly we must focus in prayer on what God puts on our hearts to pray about whether it is Israel, Obama, persecuted church, millions who have never heard, sick, demon possessed, jailed, hungry, unclothed … remember the sheep and the goats of Matthew 25.

is God's will hampered by lack of prayers? Or, is God manipulated by the volume of prayers prayed for any situation? Is God's success in bringing about his will dependent upon the prayers of his people?

ginnyrose

Good question, ginnyrose. I have a theory about that. I believe that when God wills something, he puts it on the hearts of his children to pray about it, and then he does it.

I knew an elderly preacher (many years ago) Brother Kindall with Parkinson’s disease. His mind would come and go. One morning, he told his wife: “let’s pray for Wesley (their son) right now”. She said: “OK”. They prayed for him at around 10 something that morning in Bastrop Louisiana. That evening, Wesley called them. As it turned out, at the very time that they were praying for him that morning, he was right behind a 30 car pile-up wreck in California and barely missed being a part of the wreck.

God wanted to spare Wesley. He moved on his dad (with a failing mind) to pray for him.

How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"I believe that when God wills something, he puts it on the hearts of his children to pray about it, and then he does it."
______________________________________________________________

Exactly. And that is why I believe one should not question other people's concerns who differ from yours.

ginnyrose wrote:Exactly. And that is why I believe one should not question other people's concerns who differ from yours.

__________

This has always been my heart as well. We are all led to pray for different things. Some maybe given the burden and heart to pray for the those persecuted, while others maybe lead to pray solely for the lost, and then still GOD may lead some to pray for people in a specific region who are lost. There really is no "one size fits all" and GOD is surely big enough to care for and love each one of us. I use to feel guilty when someone would say "oh but you should pray for this person or this situation." Now I realize if I pray for someone because someone else pushes me to and not because the LORD leads me to then its all for not anyways. JESUS only did what the FATHER lead HIM to do...

Great comment ginnyrose thanks!!
God bless
maryjane

Greetings Bear

I have been thinking over and praying over what you shared about your prayer calls. Could it be that you have stepped outside of what the LORD has for you in some of the calls you participate in?? What I mean is, it is clear you have such a burden and heart for those in the church who face physical and emotional persecution at the hands of others, perhaps that is where the LORD wants you to focus your energy and prayers? Perhaps when you got into this call for Israel that was not what GOD had intended for you to be praying about so that is where some of your confusion and unsettled heart has come from? I believe GOD gives those HE desires to pray for Israel the heart to do so, Neil(another poster here) has such a love and burden for the Jews that one can just see it comes from the LORD. You have the heart to pray for those in the church who are persecuted, while I feel lead to pray for the lost in general...each of us is walking according to HIS leading and that is pleasing to HIM! It does not have to be one over the other but each of us as members of the body following HIS leading getting the job done :)

Please think and pray about what I shared here and know that just because some of us are not always led to pray for the same things as another does not mean GOD loves anyone less.

God bless
maryjane