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Are we idolizing revival?

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sermonindex

This question occurred to me as I was reading Brother Frank's thread? Are we idolizing or worshipping revival at the expense of worshiping Christ?

Some in tbe Charismatic movement are crticised for seeking signs and wonders at tbe expense of seeking Jesus. Yet when we focus on past movement of God, are we not doing the same? Is our desire for revival more consuming than our desire for Christ?

Just wondering?

Bearmaster. .

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sermonindex

Very good bro bear, that is what I was getting at :) ............bro Frank

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sermonindex

Amen brother bearmaster. One of my favorite quotes from Ravenhill: "anything that we love more than the Lord Jesus Christ is an idol."

"Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen." (1 John 5:21).

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UntoBabes

No brother bear, we are not idolizing revival if revival is the manifestation of Jesus.

Look at it that way.
When Simeon in the temple was waiting for the birth of Christ and praised the Lord for letting him live to see this moment of the lord's salvation. was he idolizing that over Christ or was his anticipation for the arrival of that day a reflection of his love for the Lord?

If we love the Lord we will love to see his glory. It is hypocrisy to be content with the way things are and pretend to love God.

It is hypocrisy to have no anguish over the people who die daily in their unbelief knowing that God's heart is to see them saved and then pretend to love him.

Only the devil will call the holy desire to see God taking back his rightful place in the heart of his creation an idol.

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sermonindex

"The mission of SermonIndex is the preservation and propagation of classical Biblical preaching and the promotion of Christ-centered revival to this generation."

"That I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law" (Phil 3:8).

“I believe that the imperative need of the day is not simply revival, but a radical reformation that will go to the root of our moral and spiritual maladies and deal with causes rather than with consequences, with the disease rather than with symptoms” (Tozer).

A
AbideinHim

In the book "Azusa Street", Frank Bartleman
Points out that the leaders strived to keep
Jesus front and center. Any true move of
God will always exalt and glorify the Lord
Jesus Christ.

We need revival in the church that will
once again awaken the saints to being
kingdom minded and fulfilling the great
commission. Only a revived church will
be empowered to do the work of the
ministry and bring in the endtime harvest.

The more that we get our eyes on Jesus
and His Word, the greater will be personal
revival in our own lives.

Mike

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UntoBabes

Hello soldout,

It is really hard to know what Tozer was talking about and what he meant by disease, causes versus symptoms from the short quote you posted.

Read the article in this link if you want to know what he meant by these expressions and what kind of reformation and revival he was talking about.

http://www.thrive80.com/2011/08/wisdom-from-a-late-theologian/

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UntoBabes

I agree with you Mike. The more we draw nigh to God the more He will reveal His heart to us.

The two go hand in hand, but obviously for some they don't.

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elias7291

My guess Is that part of the problem has to do with our emphasizing revival in our talk but no action to achieve godly revival. As David Wilkerson famously said at the beginning of his most well known sermon a call to anguish: "I'm tired of hearing about revival. I'm tired of hearing of awakenings. These last day outpourings of the Holy Spirit. I've heard that rhetoric for fifty years. JUST RHETORIC" (emphasis added)

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timg

Having an all consuming desire for Christ is revival. That is what we should pray for. that is what we desire.

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sermonindex

you wrote:

In the book "Azusa Street", Frank Bartleman
Points out that the leaders strived to keep
Jesus front and center. Any true move of
God will always exalt and glorify the Lord
Jesus Christ.

you know, that was the first non-canonical book i read on the Faith....(i wanted to say The Way)

There's always been SOMETHING...annointed, how Frank 'reported' everything that went on, in Christ, that just lit ME up....his private prayer ministry, what he was thinking......but i digress....do we idolize Revival?

yes.....no.......maybe.....i don't know, but i do know THIS.....Revival STARTS in a five foot circle around me, and THAT revival is the Revival i seek.

hasnt happened yet. i have several "models" of men of Faith that i have studied, read their works, Frank Bartleman is one, John Sung is another,David Brainerd, Evan Roberts and Duncan Campbell as well.

God the Holy Ghost draws me to these men, as examples to emulate in Messiah Jesus....as well as emulating Jesus HIMSELF, but what i find in my OWN life, right this second, is that i am going thru kind of like what Duncan Campbell went thru in a 17 year period of his life, where he by the numbers, pastored up a Church.....it was a walk thru the Sinai, until his daughter, asked him very early in the morning.."what happened to you Daddy?...when was the last time you led a poor sinner to Jesus?"

and Duncan was just UNDONE....that girl, prophesying just cratered the dear man.

thats RIGHT where i'm at RIGHT NOW..."pre-getting cratered by God the Holy Ghost"......and seeking a re-commissioning, on my face, tears soaking the floor, so as to be fit FOR SERVICE to Jesus.

its just like those five men in that barn in the Hebrides, engaged in a ministry of intercessory prayer in conjunction with those two blind old women, praying in their lil dwelling at the same time...one of them finally gets up, and says, "this is just humbug, if we are not rightly related to God, and then started to speak the Words of the 24th Psalm.....'who shall ascend the Hill of the LORD...he who has clean hands and a pure heart"......

and in all transparency, i know i'm wandering in the "Sinai" right now, and not certain the purity of my heart, nor the cleanliness of my own hands....we've got to be honest.

I bless God for every evangelistic effort made to convert sinners, but a man can talk till he's blue in the face, and there can tens of churches around ye....but what Revival does is SATURATE of community with God Awareness, and no man does the "converting".......oh no, God the Holy Spirit convicts men and women of their TOTAL DEPENDENCE on Jesus, and the Blood of Jesus that cleanses ALL SIN, and multitudes are swept into the Kingdom...supernaturally!

nobody has to 'steady the Ark"...the LORD does it!....and that, right there is my personal longing and heart's desire.

why?...because i want to get high on the "holy ghost chill bumps"?....or be foolish, and start engaging in childish "manifestations, like 'holy laughter'...'drunkeness'.....looking for gold dust in teeth?......NO!!!!...or get BIG CROWDS, and do "interviews", and have TV camera's beaming these "glorious services"?....all the while basking in the 'flesh' and religious pride....and dont forget the MONEY!!!....no no no no!!

What is Jesus' Heart want?.....that "ALL may be saved"....that "NONE may perish"....right?

Well, when He comes to live IN us, arent the Things on His Heart, His Desires...don't they become OUR DESIRES?

well.......YES! would be the obvious answer, but the truth is, i in my weakness CANT DO THIS...all i know, is that what I CAN DO, is seek recomissioning, to be fit for Service, and the only Service, God has laid on my heart is to start getting REAL about intercessory prayer.....and God willing, others join with, in REAL travailing prayer, begging God to come down in power, and set this "dry wood' Afire, in this district.

but first, i am in DIRE need of my own Revival...so my answer...just me, is "no", i dont 'idolize revival', because just as i need water to live, i NEED God in a much much deeper Way....to LIVE......i got to get desperate, and thats just between Him and me in the secret place....but i thought it good i share my heart and my longings with you....Lord bless you all, neil

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terrybob

You are right - revival starts with me, and then you, and you..............As we come again, afresh in all our need of the Lord Jesus at the foot of the cross and repent of our lack of faith and express from the heart our need of Him..........He comes and in the tears and from the depths of our being His Holy Spirit works deeper and deeper within and Christ takes His rightful place on the throne my life.

As Norman Grubb writes in the introduction to Calvary Road by Roy Hessian, it is calling sin what it is, sin and owning up to it ourselves not hiding behind other names, calling pride, self pity, hardness of heart and all the rest sin,cutting us off from the Lord and damaging our relationship with each other. A new sensitivity to sin and dealing with it fast by confession and cleansing by the precious blood.

As we walk in the light and walk with others in the light so the way is open for God to act as He will in our lives together.

I really identified with what you are saying having been there and continuing to be there.

Yours in Him

Terry

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sermonindex


If we are simply using the word revival as a catch-phrase and reading revival history for history sake then it can be a life-less thing.

Also if we have somehow lost hope for all structures, denominations, churches and feel there is no hope for any of them then we will not like the word revival. For revival speaks of bringing to life again that which was dead.

I have great hope personally for the Lord to revive churches with His living presence and to do a new work. This new work does not always mean a new church or denonimation (movement). Most movements begin not cursing all other groups they came out of but rather they begin with a great hope for larger christendom to be revived yet they also go out in obedience to the call of God on them.

Any remnant theology without hope for revival for others is not in-line with the grace and mercy of the Lord.

Some resources I highly recommend:

For Corporate revival:

Why Revival Tarries by Leonard Ravenhill

for personal revival:

The Calvary Road by Roy Hession


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UntoBabes

Quote"

I bless God for every evangelistic effort made to convert sinners, but a man can talk till he's blue in the face, and there can tens of churches around ye....but what Revival does is SATURATE of community with God Awareness, and no man does the "converting".......oh no, God the Holy Spirit convicts men and women of their TOTAL DEPENDENCE on Jesus, and the Blood of Jesus that cleanses ALL SIN, and multitudes are swept into the Kingdom...supernaturally!"

Yes Neil, That is what I long for as well.
Amen brother.
May the Lord grant you the desire of your heart.

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sermonindex

Bearmaster, I have asked the same question myself. So your not alone.

When we desire God, we should desire all of it, the fruit (saving souls), the power, the signs, the wonders, all of it.

I hate it, I just hate it when people lift up attributes and put down the power. God is both attribute and power, we should ask for nothing less.

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sermonindex

"This thing becomes an obsession. For fifty years I’ve wept, and I’ve prayed and I’ve groaned, and I’ve read, and I’ve fasted, and I’ve met with guys for nights of prayer, and days of prayer and days and days of prayer, for revival.

There is not much sign of it. Well, are you sure? You see, prayers never die. What are these: the prayers of the saints (Rev.8.3). You never pray a prayer born of God without it being on record with God. God never wastes anything. Do you think you and I have prayers born of grief, born of anguish, born of desire to see an overthrow of iniquity (for after all that is what revival is), and you think God will let them die?" (Leonard Ravenhill).

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sermonindex

Amen to bro Neil. What I was alluding to in the other post that bro bear referenced was the " business," of revival. There are thousands of books and many speakers to whom this is their livlihood. When the church hits its critical mass, when men and woman are so tired of business usual and begin to seek the Lord Jesus and Him alone until they find Him, then as a result of that, what we call revival will follow.

Any church can pursue this and o to God that they would. Yet in the end, if they do not, then men and woman will begin to leave and find others of like mind, it is inevitable. We all desperately intimate fellowship, first with the Lord and then with others who are also intimate with the Lord, its the only thing that satisfies the soul...........bro Frank

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sermonindex

Dear UntoBabes: Brother, do you have a name that I can use other than UntoBabes? Why do you use UntoBabes?

I am very sorry for not quoting more from Tozer, but here is the rest of the article at the link below, titled "No Revival without Reformation:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=36&topic_id=32733&post_id=245434&viewmode=thread&order=0

I believe what Tozer was getting at can be found in the following verses:

"The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."

“But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. “These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness."

"Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded."

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me."

"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."

"Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old selfd with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator."

Love in Christ's name,

Kenneth Martin

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sermonindex

What I was alluding to in the other post that bro bear referenced was the " business," of revival. There are thousands of books and many speakers to whom this is their livlihood. When the church hits its critical mass, when men and woman are so tired of business usual and begin to seek the Lord Jesus and Him alone until they find Him, then as a result of that, what we call revival will follow.

This is well said and true. Sadly many in our day speak of revival yet do not experience it. I recently posted this quote on facebook which I feel is the problem:

"It is scarcely possible in most places to get anyone to attend a meeting where the only attraction is God." - A.W. Tozer

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UntoBabes

Hello soldout,

Why UntoBabes? I happen to like it as I was reading Matthew 11.

While a babe ia a word that can mean many things, in that specific passage it means someone with a child-like trust.


Well, If you don't like UntoBabes you can call me "Booboo". My husband and friends call me that, but I can not give you my real name although there are some here on the forum who know my real name.

Sorry soldout, I don't mean to be so secretive. I just don't think it really matters.

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sermonindex

Are we looking outward in or inward out? To put it another way. Should not revival be a fruit of our remaining or abiding in Christ? Should not this thing we call revival be tbe fruit of our union with Christ?

Are we becoming so absorbed with an external move of God we are losing sight if tbe inward reality of Christ working within us? Are we losing sight of intimate fellowship with Jesus?

In my readings of tbe New Testament I never see where God promises external revival. What I do see is an exhortation to run hard after Jesus. To set our hearts and minds on things above. To be in his presence. To seek intimacy with him.

In John 17 Jesus defines eternal life not as revival but in knowing God. And knowing his Son Jesus. This knowing is an experiential intimate heart knowledge. Not a head full of theology.

I do not see that God exhorts us to pray for external revival. But exhorts more to intimacy with God. He also exhorts more to get revelation from him. To know God better.

If we focus more on intimacy with Jesus we would be less disappointed with not seeing revival and more enraptured with dwelling upon the beauty of Jesus. Then out of that we may see an external move of God.

My thoughts.

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

I just saw a quote by Tozer that says rarely can you get people to attend a meeting where the only attraction is God. This is what I am trying to convey. Should not our attraction be Jesus himself and nit revival?

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

Amen brothers Greg, Frank, & Bear, when I first started reading and seeking for genuine revival the Holy Spirit began to touch many deep idols in my heart; the root of sin I believe is selfishness and pride. I find it hard to explain this working of the Holy Spirit in me, other then by quoting: "OH Wretched man that I am, who shall save me from the bondage of this death!" Jesus came to save me from sin, not in sin. I need to be saved from me, myself and I EVERYDAY. I NEED a clean heart and a STEADFAST spirit. To be immoveable in Christ! Mature in Christ and not wavering by every wind of doctrine and the trickery of men. Not overcome by the evil one, but being more than a conquer through Him who loves me.

The cross is rarely preached and the bible clearly states that it brings an offence whenever it is preached. Jesus was wounded in the house of His friends and He came to His own and they did not receive Him.

Many of the "revivals" that are advertised on church Billboards, etc., are born in the soul and not by the Spirit of the Lord. We must deny ourselves and lose our soulish life to gain His spiritual Life. Again, the cross brings death to self being on the throne and puts Christ in His rightful blood bought place: as Lord and God. Not I, but Christ in me! Not my righteousness derived from the law, but His righteousness. Not my will, but His will.

OH Dear Lord Jesus please break me and bring me to the end of myself! “Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.”

-Kenneth

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UntoBabes

Yes Ken, I see what Tozer is refering to.

We have to repent of all known sin if we are to seek to worship God in spirit and in truth, but the heart is deceitful above all and desperatly wicked. There are many hidden sins and self life that lie in the depth of our hearts that only the Spirit of God can reveal over time as we continue to seek Him in prayer.

I believe as Tozer does that the spirit has left the church in America. The last move of the Spirit was in the 70S and that was not fully pure or widespread as anational move of God.
Shorty after, God had to depart for mercy'sake. There are two things the Holy Spirit will do if sin exists in the camp, leave or strike. He will depart or we will have many Ananiases, and Sapphiras on our hand.

So basically if we are to see Revival again we will have to begin from scratch.
We must pray, repent of all known sin, continue to seek God , repent of any sin he reveals that we were not aware of and make restitutions for wrongs.

This can go on for years in an average size church until it is safe enough for the Spirit to come without having to strike people dead left and right.

From there a revival can spread and become a national event.

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sermonindex

Dear UntoBabes:

LOL, I think I like UntoBabes much better then "Booboo" LOL. :) Also, I love the verses which inspired the name, it is one of my favorites:

"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."

Another veres I like, which is similiar:

"Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

One more:

"So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.'"

-Kenneth :)

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UntoBabes

Brother ken,

Please do me a favor. Please do not call those things you see advertised on church billboards revivals. We know better than that.
These are not revivals, brother. I don't care if the whole world names them that. Let us not confuse matters here.

The brother who posted the question in the beginning was refering to real moves of God.He was saying that we can be consumed with real moves of the Spirit of God that they can be an idol which I disagree with.

some people have the tendancy to box things. In their mind it must be "this" or "that". iT can not be both.

In his mind, if we have a consuming desire to see God move we can not have a consuming desire for Christ.

That is a bunch of none sense. For this brother have many times posted things about the word of God and the persecuted church and no one has accused him of idolizing the word of God or the persecuted church over Jesus.

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sermonindex

Dear UntoBabes:

Please read my post carefully: I said "revival". Which means they are “quote” calling them “revival”, but they are not. I do not know how you did not get this from my post. :/ How could you say that what I was describing in my post was the wrong type of revival, as I attempted to be open and also compare between genuine biblical Christ-Centered revival and the "revival" on billboards?

Please call me Kenneth. That’s how I have been signing my name at the end of my post. :)

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UntoBabes


Kenneth,

I understand what you said.

Do you believe that a desperate and overwhelming desire to see genuine revival can compete with the love of Christ.

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sermonindex

Wow, sounds like spontaneous combustion ready to burst into flames of believers here. Thank you, Lord

As Eliza Doolittle once sang:
“Words, words, words, I’m so sick of words...don’t talk of love lasting through time, if you’re on fire....show me.....” :-)

Jesus Christ said: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth, GO ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matthew 28:20)

Encouraging myself also...a sister in Christ

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sermonindex

Do you believe that a desperate and overwhelming desire to see genuine revival can compete with the love of Christ.

I believe these are the same thing in many ways. For one to seek revival is to seek to get back to the full trust and surrender to Jesus Christ and to accept fully His love for oneself.

Revival leads to Normal Christianity, and normal Christianity is all about the Lord Jesus Christ.

SermonIndex has had a slogan title under the site for many years:
Promoting Christ-Centered Revival before that we had Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.


What both of these statements mean in the end is that "we are promoting any a move of God's people back to the person of Jesus Christ in biblical surrender and commitment to Him and His ways."

I have never promoting revival as only experiencing benefits or a presence but rather the person of Jesus Christ. At times sin issues need to be dealt with to get back to this place of being Spirit Filled and abiding with the Lord.

To there are many phrases and ways to simply say the same thing of needing to walk with a pure intimate walk with Jesus Christ the person.

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UntoBabes

Yes sister,

Every move of God has produced global evagalism and mission work around the world. The problem with missionarries today going from the west is that they were never sent but just went.

the congo revival and the shantung revival give the story of missionaries who started schools, churches, had converts but were not filled with the Spirit and were not producing real born again believers until the Spirit of God fill and everything changed.

It would do us good to learn from the past.

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UntoBabes

Brother Greg, If these are different ways of saying the same thing. If the presence Jesus is revival and revival is God saturating His people, then why did this thread start to begin with?

Obviously the OP will implying a difference.

This is the second thread with the same title that I have seen on this forum.

I do not think any of us were promoting revival as only experiencing benefits or a presence.

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sermonindex

Even when there is true revival of the church and by implication newly saved lives as well, this does not mean that this way of God working will produce lasting fruit.

One of the most remarkable things to me was what I witnessed in the Outer Hebrides. Not only extraordinary divisions amongst believers, many of the older ones having been soundly saved in the Hebridean Revival after the war in which Duncan Campbell is known to have had a part, but also how this divisiveness effected the unbelieving population, particularly the youth.

The burden of the two sisters who received God' promises and shared them with the elders, was principally informed by a lack of youth or else a total absence of youth in the Barvas church. Yet today the youth of the island are just as worldly minded as are any young people. In Stornoway the principle town, the drink problem was visible every weekend with hundreds of young people just getting drunk and taking the streets as their own. Revival in Lewis has happened 10 times over the last 200 years. Yet the Island is gripped with divisiveness and all of its attendant problems. No doubt it would be an extraordinary thing to be in such a revival but lets not kid ourselves into imagining that even if we were to experience such a move of God this may not of itself produce a permanent effect of repentance and a permanent desire to walk a holy life. Our flesh would soon get the upper hand if we did not continue in that knowledge of the presence of God and thereby make it real on a daily basis.

Personal revival is lasting in this sense and it is daily. Knowing how far we personally fall short of this way of walking simply means that we should seek for a willingness to be faithful and obedient ourselves without hiding behind outward things, even remembrances of revival.

M
MaryJane

Bearmaster wrote: "Are we losing sight of intimate fellowship with Jesus?" "What I do see is an exhortation to run hard after Jesus. To set our hearts and minds on things above. To be in his presence. To seek intimacy with him

________________________________________


Greetings Bear!

Just wanted to say I love what you shared here. Spoke directly to my heart there brother, thank you for such a blessed reminder. It is about knowing JESUS, HE is a person and HE wants to have fellowship and relationship with us every moment of every day.

God bless
maryjane

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UntoBabes

Very true Amr,

In this message Manny Beasly talks about the imporance of living a crucified life, otherwise even a genuine revival will be short lived.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=10836

But does that exclude the need for revival. I believe God has to begin the work, and man has to work on maintaining what he received.

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UntoBabes

Also as I remember Amr, the divisions among believers even during the 49-53 revival in the Hebrides was due their Calvinistic doctrines. Some just couldn't reconcile the sovereignty of God with man's part of the equation in bringing revival.

And in the 39 revival I believe manifestations was the issue with some who were conservitive cessationists. Some ministers even forbade their congregations from getting near the revival and called it a work of the devil.

Well, brother
Can you see this happening today?
Do we still have people who can not think outside of their boxed theological prefrences.
Do we have people who think it must be "this" or "that" but never both?

S
sermonindex

Also as I remember Amr, the divisions among believers even during the 49-53 revival in the Hebrides was due their Calvinistic doctrines. Some just couldn't reconcile the sovereignty of God with man's part of the equation in bringing revival.

And in the 39 revival I believe manifestations was the issue with some who were conservative secessionists. Some ministers even forbade their congregations from getting near the revival and called it a work of the devil. Untobabes.

I don’t know where to find the article, perhaps someone can help, but I recall listing to Duncan Campbell on a recording sharing something which happened just after the revival of 49-53 broke out at Barvas. This was in an house or building in Arnold which is just 3 miles north west of Barvas. Mr Campbell testifies that he was invited to come to the house and speak and he describes the house being full of people in every part thirsting for God. Yet when he began to share 4 men from a church is Shawbost just a few miles further north arrived at the house to withstand what was happening. Mr Campbell describes how these men had such an effect on the spiritual atmosphere that he was unable to speak. In the end he felt led to invite a 15 year old boy of the name of Donald MacPhail to pray. After this prayer of Donald the atmosphere was broken and the Lord had His way with both the men and the others in the house.

Revival in the sense which it is understood by those who have been a witness to it seems to be something which speaks about the sovereignty of God on the one hand, and at the same time does not amount to a compulsion on everyone to respond properly. It would be easy to imagine that the difference in this is a simple matter of mens hearts to truly know God and His ways with us, but I cannot be certain if it is a simple as this. One thing is for sure there were other men on the Island who did resist God’ hand and were set aside because of it. I bear witness to the fact that on Lewis when I lived there in the 1990s there were very hard and dark men of the “cloth” and wonderfully peaceful and deep men of the spirit as well. It was a blessed place to live, but very difficult to reconcile the divisions simply along the lines of doctrines. The infection was much deeper than doctrine it was pervasive of the whole “man” as well.

Yet you are right as well. The presentation for resistance was along doctrinal divisions. One elderly brother who was saved in the revival shared with me how the doors to some local churches were literally slammed shut to prevent anyone of that move of God from gaining entry. How truly astonishing is this? Lord grant us the wisdom to comprehend your ways and not to harden our hearts to Your mercy and provisions.

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UntoBabes

Thank you friend. very insightful.
God bless.

I wanted to say to all but especially Blaine that I am really sorry for my harshness. I had a time of confession with the Lord.

Actually Bearmaster( Blaine) and I are part of a prayer call for revival. We do not always see things the same way but I respect his love for the Lord Jesus.

May the Lord open our eyes to see who the real enemy is.


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sermonindex

I am reminded in tbe movie the Chronicles of Narnia. I believe Lucy asked Aslan why he did you not show up like you did at first. Aslan's response was my child I do not always show up the same way twice. Can this not be true of the Spirit today?

We are told in John 3 that the wind blows where it will. You hear its sound. But you cannot tell where it us coming from Ir where it is going? Thus the same with past movements of God. If one looks back through history I doubt that any two movements of God are tbe same.

I posed the question are we idolizing revival because the tendency is to look back at tbe past and camp in those glory days and in our longing to see a movement if God . Miss what God is doing now. Even in our own lives.

I have often said history is HIS STORY. The dynamic of God is an ever present reality NOW. The past is tbe past. What is tbe Spirit saying to this generation. What is he saying to us now.

I hear the language that we need to weep and lament over our sins. We need brokenness. Need to pray God be merciful to me a sinner. To a degree that may be true. But we get so inward looking that we fail to look at the cross. We get so focussed on tbe past we miss what God is doing in tbe hear and now.

In those countries where a gospel move is taking place tbe emphasis is on Jesus. The emphasis is entering into the reality of Jesus himself. There is not the emphasis of brokenness or mourning over sin as more tbe emphasis of following Jesus and being captivated by his beauty.

At tbe risk of being heretical would suggest put away Ravenhill and Tozer and pick up your New Testament and contemplate the beauty Jesus. For if I understand the vein these men wrote in. They would say look to Jesus and his word. Not me. Not my works. Kook to Jesus and his word.

The thing is men such as Whitfield and Edwards were raised up for tbeir time and then departed into glory. It nay not be tbe movements of those days are not what God wants to do in this present reality.

I do not share every missionary endeavor going out of tbis country is not empowered by tbe Spirit. Just because a revival is not taking place. Because of security and tbe lives of people I cannot give details of people leaving this country. There are American gospel teams that travel to parts of tbe world where the average believer would trembke. And God uses them.

My point in opening up this thread is to show we can be so focussed on tbe past that we forget what God is doing in the hear and now. Saints may we nit get behind he Spirit but jeep in step with him

Bearmaster.

Caps are for emphasis only.

S
sermonindex

Can I be truthful for a moment. I am so tired of revival. I've heard of revival all my life. Prayed for it, sought it with prayer and fasting, longed for it, listened to countless sermons, read many books, testimonies, and now I am tired of it.

When I read about the men God stirred up in the Old Testament, God moved those men to do whatever it is He purposed to do in them. It was God who did that. And we are under better promises a better way and all the longing in the world is not going to bring about nothing until God decides to move us by His Spirit.

I am going to stop looking for revival. I've wasted my whole life on something that may or may not come in my lifetime. While brethren come around saying, "Oh it will come brother". I even told brethren that to console them thinking that I had an edge. I had nothing, and neither do the brethren that try to console me.

God knows my heart, He knows that I want Him and His ways, and I am just going to seek Him. Personally, I don't care if revival ever comes at all.

T
timg

I love it when people are truthful. We would probably make alot more progress in church if we would follow your lead Approved.

I have been there Approved. I have tried to stop praying for a mighty move of God. But quite frankly, I can not get away from the burden that I believe God has placed on my heart. For almost 25 years I have been praying.

I don't believe it is anything more than what the Apostles were looking for. A manifestation of the work of the Holy Spirit like the day of Pentecost.

David prayed that God would revive His people so that they may praise Him. That is my prayer. The church in America is weak and ineffective as a whole. This should greatly grieve us. We are the bride of Christ! I am desperate for God to purify His church starting with me. None of us should be satisfied with what has become of the visible body of Christ.

This is not about us or our feelings! It is about His Glory and His alone.

Maybe I will never see anything like I have read about in the book of Acts or in church history, but I will continue to pray that He will awaken His people to the desperate need we are of His massive working in the hearts of His people.

To His praise and Glory, for the sacrifice that He paid,
Tim

S
sermonindex

The Inner Man of the Heart

by T. Austin-Sparks

Chapter 4

http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/001445.html

"Having been so definite in pointing out that all the Divine operations in the "New Man" are directed toward the complete ascendency of the spirit over the soul and body, and that the anointing of God rests within and upon the "Inner Man," we can only stress two things. One is that whatever may appear to the contrary in emotion, pleasure, gratification, enjoyment, activity, resolve, etc, only that which comes out from the Holy-Spirit-indwelt-spirit is spiritual and effects spiritual ends. The natural - soulish - man can make an oil which is an imitation of "The Holy Anointing Oil," or fire which is "False Fire," which seems to serve the same purpose and produce similar results. Thus in the same meeting one may speak by revelation under the anointing of the Spirit of God, bringing those present face to face with issues of tremendous significance, and another may launch out on to a churning sea of beautiful ideas and strong emotional currents, and capture the meeting, apart from any spiritually discerning people present.

The pressure and strenuousness of life lay many open to the peril of such emotional, mental, and volitional stimulants, but it may only be in the religious realm what alcohol or drugs are in the physical realm. The pernicious results are that people must have more and more, and they select such as can produce them, and gather round such a man. This is clearly shown by Paul to be "carnal." It is the opposite of "The anointing which ye have received abiding within you, and ye have no need that any should teach you." This makes necessary the second thing, namely spiritual discernment.

We must seek more and more from the Lord a quickening and purifying of spirit, and we must walk after the spirit in whatever discernment we have so that we are saved from the imitation "oil" which deceives and at length lands us either into error or gets us into a spiritual cul-de-sac. Such are they that are "carried about by every wind of teaching." Spiritual discernment is one of the most vital needs of God's people today. Nothing can take its place, not even the wisest and best teaching or counsel. Only those who have it will be saved from the distraction and despair of the bewildering mass of conflicting teaching, "manifestations," and movements of these and the coming days.

There is another thing that Christian workers should remember. It is always a dangerous and paralysing thing to allow soulish human feelings to come in and take precedence over the spirit in relationships where spiritual help is needed. Compassion, love, sympathy, concern, interest, desire to help, etc, must be absolutely under the control and direction of the spirit. Failure to observe this law has resulted in some of the most ghastly moral and spiritual tragedies in the lives of Christian workers. If we allow either natural attraction or human desire on the one hand, or natural repulsion and human distaste on the other, to have any ruling place, the consequences may be disastrous, and the result will certainly be spiritual failure. Very often even in the case of a loved relative the human interest has to be made quite secondary - sometimes ruled out altogether - before a spiritual issue can be effected. OUR will and wish has to be surrendered to God's.

Before closing there are just two things which one feels should be mentioned. Having seen that the basis of all fellowship and co-operation with God is spiritual, in and through the born-again spirit, we must realise that this at once defines the real nature of our service. The background of all Cosmic conditions is spiritual. Behind the things seen are the things unseen. The things which do appeal are not the ultimate things.

"The whole world lieth in the wicked one." There is a spiritual heirarchy which, before this world was, revolted against the equality of the Son with the Father in the Throne, and in spite of the hurling out of heaven and the eternal doom which followed, has been in active revolt and antagonism to that "eternal purpose" right through the ages. A certain judicial hold upon this earth and the race in Adam was gained by Satan through the consent of that first Adam, through whom the purpose of God should have been realised on this earth.

Thus we have Paul telling the members of the Body of Christ - The Last Adam - that their "warfare is not with mere flesh and blood, but with principalities, and powers, the world-rulers of this darkness, and spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenlies."

What a lot is gathered up into that inclusive phrase "This darkness." How much is said about it in the scriptures. The need for having eyes opened is ever basic to emancipation (see Acts 26:18). The cause of all "this darkness" is said to be "Spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenlies." Literally translated the words are "the spiritualities" or "the spirituals," meaning, spiritual beings. "Wickedness" here does not just mean merely inherent wickedness or evil, but malignancy; destructive, harmful.

"In the heavenlies" means simply inhabiting a realm beyond the earthly; not limited to earthly geographical localities; moving in the realm surrounding the earth and human habitation.

"World rulers" means that these malignant spiritual hosts are directing and governing the world wherever the government of Christ has not been superimposed through His Body - the spiritual Church.

"Principalities and Powers" (authorities) represent order, rank, method, system. Satan is not omnipresent, hence he must work through an organised dividing of the world under these principalities and authorities, and he himself "goes to and fro in the earth," and has seats here and there. (Job 2:2, Rev. 2:12, &c).

The Apostle declares that the explanation of situations is to be looked for in the unseen, behind the actual appearance.

What looks like the natural has its rise too often in the supernatural. Man is always trying to give a natural explanation and therefore to put things right by natural means. But when he comes up against a situation in which interests of the Christ of God are involved, he is floored and beaten. Such situations are becoming the common places - nay more - the overwhelming order of the day amongst "Christian workers" in these days, both abroad and at home. We have no intention of dealing with the subject at length here, but are stating the fact, and reminding the Lord's people especially that in more realms than that of Divine activity "What is seen hath not been made out of the things which do appear," but that multitudes of the things in daily life which are inimical to spiritual interests must have their explanation from behind. Let us emphasise that this spiritual union with God in the super Cosmic significance of the Cross of Christ means that our supreme effectiveness is in the spiritual realm. We who are the Divine "spirituals" are to be energised by the Holy Spirit to take ascendency in Christ over the Satanic "spirituals," and thus know something more than mere earthly dominion but "sealed together with Him in the heavenlies" (as to our spirit) we are to learn to reign in that greater "kingdom of the heavens" of which the earthly millennial kingdom is only an earthly counterpart.

Again, let us affirm, that all the energies of God in our spirit are toward a corporate spiritual union with Christ whereby the impact of His victory and sovereignty shall be registered among and upon the "principalities and powers," etc., and their domination paralysed, and ultimately destroyed.

The last word is to point out that it is because man has, and centrally is, a spirit that he can have intercourse with fallen spirits. We believe that this explains the whole system of spiritism (spiritualism) and that the supposed departed with whom spiritualists communicate are none other than these "spiritual hosts" impersonating the departed, whom they knew in lifetime. Leaving the many phases of this thing in its outworkings and issues at the end of the age, let us note the terrible nemesis in wrecked minds and bodies: haunted, driven, distraught, reason-bereft souls; crowded asylums, prisons; suicides, moral and spiritual wrecks, etc., is because that which was given to man specifically for union, communion, and co-operation with God, namely the spirit of man, has been used as the medium and instrument for this demon invasion and control of his life. The tremendous warnings and terrible judgments associated with all kinds of spiritism; necromancy, witches, "familiar spirits," etc., are because of the spirit complicity, dalliance, consorting, with fallen spirits whose purpose is always to capture men and women through their spirits. This they will do even by adopting the guise of an angel of light and talking religion. Strange, isn't it, that fifty years ago men threw off the belief in the supernatural in the scriptures, and today they and their school so strongly embrace spiritism? Surely this is "the working of error" sent that they who received not the truth for the love of it "might believe A LIE" "in order that they might be condemned" (2 Thess. 2:11).

It was the spiritual background of their life which led to the destruction of the Egyptians, Canaanites, etc, and this was spiritism in different forms; but it was their being joined to demons that involved them.

The most spiritual people apart from new birth union with God are in the greatest peril here, and even the Lord's own people by reason of their very spirituality need to constantly abide in the Cross of Christ that they shall not become exposed to "The wiles of the devil"" (T. Austin-Sparks).

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