Systematic Theology

Hey Friends,

I have a few friends who are really into systematic theology. I started to look at a few as well and found it really edifying but also overwhelming

I know there are quite a few different ones out there (Wayne Grudem's is a popular one.) I wanted to ask about the differences between them all and see which would be best to take a look at.

thanks
Evangel

Hi Evangel,

It is great that you are looking at doing bible study. We are to show our selves approved by study. it is the word that washes us and the truth shall set us free.

I went to Harvest Bible College in Melboourne Australia and we used this as a text book. Recently on a Linkedin Christian site a systematic theology book was used to support a view that after you are saved, you then repent.

Hopefully you will understand both the error and the danger of this view. Systematic Theology and commentarys are good as support for your own study. If they are the key to understanding the word of God then there is no room for a rhema from the Holy spirit.

Listening to the still small voice and the gentle leadings of the Holy Spirit will give you a safer place to learn from. For example we see in page 309 a beautiful understanding of repentance in that it includes a rejection of sin in particular and sin in general that many omit.

However as a Pentecostal support it contains both the strengths and weaknesses of the Pentecostal worldview.

For example on 429 looking at when christ will return it is stated as "simply and evasion of the force of those passages to say that we cannot know the day or the hour but that we cna know the month and year". This shows the a short sighted view that includes the lack of understanding of the raptures or being caught up as there is more than one. In short this as you will hear often when confronted with something that requires study or a challenge from the denominations perspective.

The scripture says for a very good reason you will know the times and the season, this means the months and the years.

For example look at Syria, America, the public key based identity system that has been set up globaly but still to be fully implemented. This is from the world.

We could and should look at the word and the church at the end it is said that there will be a great falling away, some would say one third of all christians will fall away because iniquity shall abound

There are "teachers" who are being treated like rock stars and they are saying you dont need to repent to be saved. Sanctification is legalism. I wont go on but it appears most of the Pentecostals in Australia are following these new enlightened teachings.

Are we not to watch and pray? Are we not also advised that by doing so we will not be overtaken as a theif in the night? THat being so makes the understanding of the times and seasons imperative as ignorance will not cut the mustard.

I am not saying Waynes book is bad but all books have limitations and wrong teaching. The word of God does not. Use them together with the bible not the theology book as the reference point.

After 30 years of study I can say with at least my experience that the vast majority of theology books have a significant amount of academia and self interest in them.

Academia is does not prepare you to be a person of God it is an intellectual pursuit. This was told me by the dean of Harvest bible college from Perth. It is not to prepare someone to understand the word and to get and share the holy Spirit inspired or God breathed word. THis is what I was told.

Secondly many writers want to be recogninsed for saying something different. This desire to be noticed frequently ends in error and heresy. Not always but do not think that theology is all good far from it.

I hope this brings some light. My favourite commentators are FF Bruce and Lightfoot.

May God bless you as you study his word, the bareans were regarded as being more noble because they studied and held the preacher, Paul, accountable to the word of God.

A time is coming when there will be afamine of the hearing of the word of God, not of the word but of hearing. You very well may have a ministry to preach the word with clarity so that people do not turn away from it, in the church. The word says to wait on God for your ministry I think if you do then it will quickly become self evedient.

If I am wrong as I have been in the past please stop to tell me as we are all to be as I understand it mutually submissive and to hear correction from any person not just as some say from someone of the same office or church "owner" or the same five fold ministry.

God Bless Oskar

I do not think you will find that any of your friends have this one. If you get it and read it you will probably want to recommend it to them. May God bless you abundantly!

G. H. Kersten's Reformed Dogmatics: A Systematic Treatment of Reformed Doctrine

Of the 98 publications that came from his pen, Reformed Dogmatics is clearly the most important and definitive work that Rev. Kersten produced with the help of the Lord. It is the outgrowth of his lectures to his theological students which he labored zealously to finish in final form the last years prior to his death...Reformed Dogmatics clearly reveals the ability which God has granted him to explain and defend the true doctrines of God's Word simply and powerfully, which truth shall yield fruits of godliness under the blessing of the Holy Spirit. It is our hearty wish and prayer that this sound work on all the major doctrines of God's Word may be blessed to many souls also in our own language, to the firm establishing of the truth in our midst, and to the up building of His church to the honor and glory of the Triune God's thrice-holy Name. – From the Translator’s Preface

http://www.heritagebooks.org/products/Reformed-Dogmatics%2C-2-Volumes.html

Hi EvangelTam,

My favorite is Thomas C. Oden's Systematic Theology, it's very unique in that it pulls much of it's content from pre and post nicene, reformers, and beyond on the various subjects.

http://www.christianbook.com/systematic-theology-3-volumes/thomas-oden/9781598560367/pd/560360

God bless,

Russ

This one is my personal recommendation:

Chafer's Systematic Theology in 4 Volumes by Lewis Sperry Chafer

http://www.christianbook.com/chafers-systematic-theology-4-volumes/lewis-chafer/9780825423406/pd/2345?

Thanks for the replies! For those who recommended a book would you please explain why you recommend it over others?

Also I agree that systematic theology in general many times have bias that one should be aware. I find that there are a lot of academic things in there, however I find that there is also good thoughts and content that can help edify the believer if they are hearing from the Holy Spirit. The mind is the gateway way for things to be taken in the spirit and heart.

Systematic theology is awesome and something every beliver should read.
I cant understand all theese people warning bout theology.
Eternal life is to know God and what better and more glorifying way is there expect prayer to get to know God than to study Theology? Theology is basiclly the teachings about God.

Surely there are somebad systematic theology like the one of Charles Finney that denies alot of christian doctrines such as justification by faith alone.

But there are also some great systemtic theology books out there.
The one with Grudem is very good even though I personally dont agree on everything stated in there.
But that book gave me a good solid christian foundation.

THe good thing with Grudems systematic theology is that he is stating different views than his own and their bible verses and arguments.

I changed views on many things after reading his systematic theology.

bearmaster wrote /// You have the Holy Spirit to teach you what his word says///

Amen!!
"1 john ch 2 v 20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things"

1 john ch 2 v 26 "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Systematic theolgy systematicaly uses selective blindness to many scriptures to make its point.
The foundation of most systematic theolgy with the exception of Finney and perhaps a few others is the Augustinian catholic tradition thus the objective is already concluded before the study began.

Jesus said to the religious Jews of his day and in reality speaks to us today you have made the word of God of none effect through your tradition.

The Scripture is so Dimensional that to Systematicaly bind it, is a great mistake.

Systematic theology is awesome and something every beliver should read.
I cant understand all theese people warning bout theology.
Eternal life is to know God and what better and more glorifying way is there expect prayer to get to know God than to study Theology? Theology is basiclly the teachings about God.

Hebrews 8:11:-“And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,

If Eternal life is to Know God then we have the access to it through Jesus Christ who pours out his holy Spirit into us abundantly. We do not need to read any man made theology to know God. This is why I am not interested in Bible schools. Also the problem with all these theologies is they make eternal life as a Theory. But Jesus demonstrated Eternal life (1 John 1:3) to us, which means it is a practical life and not a theory. That is I can live this eternal life and show it to people like Jesus did.

The word 'Know' is the same word that was used in Genesis, Adam knew Eve and Eve conceived (Genesis 4:1). It is to have an internal fellowship with God and know him intimately. Not just having a head knowledge about him.

Sree > If that how to interpret that verse.
U dont have to listen to sermons in here nor go to any church and have any Pastor over u or go to any bibleschool or bible collage.
Surely there are many deceptive thing on thoose places but there are good aswell.

God has placed teachers inside the church eph 4:11
To build up the body and teachers will teach theology.
Every preacher u listen to will deliver theology in some way or another.

If somone say "God is love" Surely that is theology.
Because he is stating something about the character of God
If someone say "Baptize the belivers" Then its theology.
If somone says "Lay hans on the sick " THen its theology.
What systematic theology does is to teach what bible teaches in all aspects such as baptism, salvation, character of God etc.

The opinion about Bible school is my personal view and I clearly stated it in my previous post. I personally believe one does not need to attend Bible schools to know God.

A Church and Bible school are not the same. Purpose of a Church is to raise up disciples. There are believers of different spiritual levels in a Church. Some might be new to faith, they still need teachers. Other might require a fellowship that encourages them to walk with Christ everyday. There are rooms for both teaching and sharing in a Church. Eternal life is a gift from God, for example, A rich man can write a 1 million dollar cheque to a roadside beggar. Now this begger needs to believe in this Cheque and take it to the bank to retrieve benefits from it. If he thinks this that the cheque might be a dummy one then he will never do it. Same way even a new believer in Christ is given access to know God but he might not access it as he does not understand the previlage of knowing God. In other words the value of it. Hence you need teachers in a Church to show this.

The mistake I find in seeing every word of God as theology is you take the practical aspect of it out. Jesus did not come to this earth to preach and teach alone. He came to live and show the nature of God. That is why when his disciples asked him about showing the father, he said 'have you not seen me?'. He did not say, have you not heard my teachings or theologies on God. Instead he asked have you not seen God in my life? In the way I lived?

If your argument is true, then Jesus could have easily written a book about God, instead he lived and showed his disciples. Which is easier? To write a book or live and show it.

I'm glad to see you have this interest in systematic theology! It's a very good discipline that allows you to see how the teachings of the Bible are all related one to another. But I'm going to make a slightly different recommendation, especially if you are new to theology.

My personal recommendation is that you start with the Westminster Shorter Catechism. It's old in wording but very simple, and is careful and specific in its explanation of the principles of the Word. It's 107 questions long, but each word has a world in it.

By the time you are done with an thorough study on that (or memorized it, which I highly recommend), you will understand what it means to glorify God, how to enjoy Him, who God is, the Trinity, His decrees, creation, providence, the fall, sin and its effects, Christ's redeeming work, how Christ saves us, the blessings of the Christian life (justification, adoption, sanctification, assurance, peace, etc.), death and resurrection, the Ten Commandments, Bible reading, the power of the Spirit in reading and preaching on the believer, baptism (the one part I'm at odds with), the Lord's Supper, and the Lord's Prayer. This was written by godly men and is widely recommended by the godly.

As for teachers and books, in Ephesians 4 Paul tells us that God gave us apostles, prophets, teachers, preachers and evangelists for the equipping of the body. The Holy Spirit must empower every nugget of truth you receive, and you must faithfully study the Bible for yourself and grow in knowledge of it, but the implication of the verse is that if you reject teachers that God has given us (both past and present) you will be a wave tossed about on the sea. We are all part of one body, and must build each other up.

May the Lord prosper you in your study, and may He firmly fix your feet in the solid ground of His Word!

hi, i had a dear friend who had much influence in my walk who earned his doctorate under f f bruce. he is highly recommended from clark pinnock , my friend.jimp

We ought to be leery of any book named "Systematic Theology", even if there are a few decent books that go by that title. Systematic Theology is an effort to encapsulate all the mysteries of the kingdom into a closed, finite system which answers all questions and leaves no divine mystery unexplained. Such an achievement is outside the realm of human possibility and is in most cases an effort to establish dogmatic dominion over us. "The will to a system is a lack of integrity."

The Wikipedia article lists over 300 rivaling Systematic Theologies, all of which should be consigned to the flames.

Very Well Said, Wayneman

wayneman said "We ought to be leery of any book named "Systematic Theology""The Wikipedia article lists over 300 rivaling Systematic Theologies, all of which should be consigned to the flames."

Careful,

Many of the old preachers, listed on this sight, have spoken of the importance and need of the systematic study of theology. Now some of those 300 books, perhaps many, maybe should be burned, but not all of them. It all depends on what the authors view of God was, did he approach God's word as inspired, all sufficient, authoritative, infallible? Did did the author believe in the real God of Scripture? If he didn't then sure, throw the book away. But if he did then it just might have some really valuable insights. I for sure stand in need of them.

Everyone is a systematic theologian; whether you want to be or not. You are a systematic theologian even if you don't like systematic theology. You are a systematic theologian even if you haven't written one or posses one. The question is, is your theology biblical? If I ask you about any truth of the Gospel you will no doubt give me some kind of answer, which to you must seem reasonable, right and comprehesible enough for me, the hearer, to understand. Congratulations you are a systematic theologian. Good or bad i know not, but you are one. You have taken facts from the Bible and interpreted them in such a way as that you think they can be best understood.

Any systematic theology author, who has a high view of God, is not going claim that his book by any means covers all of the panorama of Scripture nor sound the depths of any doctrine or revelation. A good author will try to be well balanced, thorough, and detailed, but would not claim to have, by any means, covered all the bases. Every biblical systematic theologian treats God's word as the final say.

God made man with a mind and made us reasonable creatures with reasoning powers and logic and such. We weren't made just to absorb facts and stop at that, but God gave us the ability to figure out the relationship between different facts and how they correspond to each other. He wants us to put the puzzle together. He wants the eyes of our understanding to be enlightened! The truth will set you free!

Everyone seems to be pointing out the fact that one can have the right doctrine, the right thing on paper, but yet be dead as a doornail. Yes, I agree. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. That fact that that can be so does not put the blame on "theology" or truth. It puts it on the person who is spiritually dead.

The other extreme is, one can be full of spiritual zeal and enthusiasm but wind up in shadowy mysticism in never never land where no one knows anything for sure and no one really cares. Not every spirit is genuine. We are to test the spirits. Zeal without knowledge is zeal to be avoided.

Truth be told we need both the Holy Spirit and good doctrine/truth. They go hand in hand. They aren't enemies, they are friends. We have to have the Spirit in order to be saved. But this doesn't mean we should not teach at all or not be concerned about doctrine. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. Jesus said
the Holy Spirit would come and guide you into all truth. How? through the word of Truth. The sum of all His word is truth. We are to rightly divide the word of truth. We are to be theologians, we are to study the scriptures, Paul spent much time preaching and teaching people. There is nothing wrong with writing books about theology and doctrines; we should do this. We should desire to have a right understanding of the truths of the Gospel. The question is was it rightly divided and are these truths reality in my life? There certainly are a lot of books written with bad theology; but that doesn't mean that there aren't any good ones. I don't want a doctor operating on my heart who didn't study his medical books too well. I wouldn't want to be a lost man in a jungle somewhere and have a "missionary" who had lots of passion but didn't know any truth about God or the Gospel. That would be scary.

Good theology has a very practical side and will penetrate into the believers daily life, it will guide and affect his daily walk. So will bad theology.

A church who throws theology and good doctrine out the window is going to be in serious trouble down the road. You will make shipwreck sooner or later.

If you say theology isn't important than what your saying is that you don't want to know anything about God. Because theology means; the knowledge of, and or the study of, God.

Paul Washer, who's messages are on this sight, says that the study of a good systematic theology, is a very good and necessary thing, especially for pastors and those wanting to be missionaries or evangelist. He bemoans the lack of good theology in the average "evangelical" american congregation.

1Ti 4:6 If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.
1Ti 4:7 Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness;

Tit_2:1 But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.

1Ti 4:16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Pro 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.

I found the most eye-opening, heart rendering book of systematic theology. It is full of amazing truth and blazing light. I have read it several times from cover to cover. It spans several thousand years of history, poetry of breathtaking depth and beauty, wisdom unspeakable, and striking illustrations by the lifes of many saints. Nothing can be added to its content without marring it, and nothing can be taken away from it without incurring serious loss.
I also have a private teacher who lectures me out of this book with wisdom like no one else can. This man is always there for me. I never pay any tuition, yet his lessons are priceless. He rejoices over my progress albeit slow, and at times he is grieved about my dullness and ignorance.

;)

There is no denying that sound doctrine is essential. After all, if we are teaching error, there will certainly be consequences.

False doctrine is a two-edged sword: it leads individuals from the way of truth and, worse yet, when the faithful see doctrinal error being promoted and accepted, they tend to rally behind bellicose heresy-hunters, who historically have done far more damage than the heretics themselves.

The gnostic heresies of the Orphites and Sethians may have led to the shipwreck of many souls in the early centuries of the church, but their doctrine is forgotten now, but the angry dogmatism and mental tyranny of Irenaeus and Tertullian are with us to this day. Tertullian may have done a good job destroying Valentinius, but the root of bitterness that he introduced to the church has been at least as destructive as anything Valentinius could have come up with.

Having said that, it is true that, in a sense, we are all systematic theologians, and rightly so. As Blake said, "I must create a System or be enslav'd by another man's. I will not reason & compare; my business is to create."

Yeah! And I am sure you know my private teacher too, dear brother Bearmaster.

i dont know bare master ,,how much have you lisstend to piper and sproll,,,,,iv been on my face weeping after listeing to piper ,,,paull washer claims to have had life changing experence wile read one of sprouls

there is much power and spirit in both ,,,

sermon index would not have arkived sermons ,or pipers sermons on the top of there page , if it was with out power

maby your geting a littele biast with your preconceptions

piper did a sermon on scripture memory video

and like keith daniels ,for over half and hour resited scripture in the spirit ,,the power will drive you down to your nees
do your self a favour and watch brother gary

piper if my word abides in you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxiOzEoTFfY tell me this man does not love the word of god

bearmaster said " The churches that are experiencing revival are those whose only source us the word. And that be Jesus. I speak if revival in China, Iran, Egypt, etc."

Brother, praise the Lord for every instance of genuine revival. I recently read a book by Iain Murray, titled "Revival and Revivalism". He speaks about how there was much God sent revival in the American colonies well before the so called 2nd great awakening. Many of the congregations/pastors who prayed for and experienced, God sent revival, not man made, were those who believed in the importance of knowing and studying biblical theology. The revivals did not make them want to throw away truth but rather to hold to it dearly and know even more. As time progressed in america many began to question many doctrines of the Gospel and much error and hurt came into the church. Revival then became much more centered on man and the flesh, because much truth was denied and the Holy Spirit was quenched and grieved and much of it was done in the flesh. It really is a helpful book. How can a true biblical understanding of Scripture/theology kill the Spirit when that is one of His ministries? Good theology is not putting the opinions of man above the Word of God, rather it is laboring to come to the right understanding of the Word of God. And yes we must be indwelled by the Holy Spirit to accomplish this. But God also expects us to study, to think, we are made in His image, we have minds and reason, He has appointed teachers, and instructors. Jesus taught, Paul and the Apostles taught, the prophets taught.

There are many who dislike theology but claim to be taught by the Holy Spirit, but yet even among these people they believe different things, things which are contrary to each other. Both claim to believe the Bible, both claim to be filled with the Spirit, but somethings clearly wrong,,,,

It is also true that knowledge can puff a person up with pride. I'm guilty of this; i fear the problem is not the doctrine, but my own self,,,,, . Certainly good theology is not an end in itself, but is always to point the believer to the lovely Savior Christ Himself!

sorry

Right Theology and right doctrines can easily become an idol for us and can turn us from the truth as easily as any other idol.

Right theology has became the great dividing sword of Christianity

Look at history, Look at Augustine look at The Catholic inquisitors look at the Reformers look at the council of Dort look at the Boston Puritans of the late 1600s when they put their faith in their right theology and doctrines, they than felt justified to react in ways to those whom slightly differed from them that I do not find at all is justified within the New Testament.

Look at how many are filled with Pride and feel justified today in the slander of past revivles and revivle preachers such as Finney, just because they have disagreements in slight differences in doctrine and theology

Many today say Finney taught doctrines of Deviles that he was a wolf in sheeps clothing that he had a demon, not because of any bizzar sinful act that he committed but for no other reason than that his theology differed from their own.

" In the beginning, Christians understood that the essence of Christianity was an obedient love-faith relationship with Jesus Christ. This was not just any relationship, but a relationship that produced genuine kingdom fruit.

But then something happened: Theologians took over the church. Once they did, the emphasis soon changed from godly fruit to "orthodox" theology. Christianity became Doctrianity. it's time to let Jesus speak through the pages of the Gospels without filtering His teachings through denials and mental gymnastics of the theologians, their books, and their commentaries." It's time for the children of the kingdom to stand up for Jesus and the gospel that He preached - and it's time for the theologians to sit down"
http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/more-theologians.html

proudpapa said "Many today say Finney taught doctrines of Deviles that he was a wolf in sheeps clothing that he had a demon, not because of any bizzar sinful act that he committed but for no other reason than that his theology differed from their own."

Sir surely it is a great sin to preach wrong doctrine. Guess it's not worth it to get into an argument about Finney. Nonetheless it is not a slight thing to be a false teacher. Paul said woe is me if I do not preach the Gospel. He told Timothy to watch what he taught very closely. There are many loving warnings by God to be on guard for false prophets and teachers.

Those who may have a correct theology on paper, yet live ungodly things and walk in darkness are in the wrong. You gave some examples of this. However, where does the blame lie? It lies on the people, not the doctrine. We can't throw out the baby with the bath water. The Pharisees had the very oracles of God yet they were haters of God. But it wasn't the Word's fault, it was their fault.

Mr. Bercot, whether he likes it or not is a theologian of some sort.

Hi therick2018

therick2018 wrote RE:///Sir surely it is a great sin to preach wrong doctrine///

Brother when you have found someone whom preaches or teaches 100% perfect doctrine let me know.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

could it be that we spend to much time straining at a gnat, and swallowing a camel ??

"The Pharisees had the very oracles of God yet they were haters of God. But it wasn't the Word's fault, it was their fault"

"Mr. Bercot, whether he likes it or not is a theologian of some sort" ....

What ?? You think that because you speak in multitudes of sentences, paragraph after paragraph, line after line in conveying your thoughts that that this makes you a prophet or teacher. When the real prophets and the real teachers stand up..the rest will sit down.

EvangelTam,

If you have any skepticism toward systematic theology, remember that every teaching of the Bible is tied into one another somehow. Christ's need to go to the cross began all the way back in Genesis 3, and Paul develops truths one on top of the other in Romans. Start with one work (I still recommend the Westminster Shorter Catechism; one third is doctrinal, two thirds practical if that carries wight with you), test what it says against Scripture (grow PROFICIENT in Scripture!), take what is correct, leave what isn't, ask questions, wrestle, chew, meditate, be humble enough to learn from brothers past and present, yet call no man Master. You cannot possibly go wrong by studying the Word of God and learning from brothers who desire(d) to glorify Christ. In everything, pray for the power of the Spirit on all that you read and study. He will bless it.

Or if you are not sure about starting a human author's work, test the Scriptures on their own grounds. Ephesians, for example, is split nearly 50/50 between a doctrinal section and a practical section. Like I said too, Romans lays one Biblical truth upon another.

The whole end of the study is to get you to stand amazed at God. "We know that when He appears we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is" (1 John 3:2). It's the revealing of Jesus Christ that causes us to grow in obedience. That is what the Spirit does. If theology becomes the sorting and categorizing of dry, dusty facts then you've used it entirely wrong. That will never impact your personal holiness but make you as dry as your studies themselves and you'll even go backwards. But if by the end you feel like you've got a diamond in your hands that you cannot stop turning around to look at its faces because you see God in so many new and breathtaking ways, it is having its right effect, and that will SATURATE your practice! A simple memorizing of the Scriptures on the attributes of God gave me an expanded view of Him that I never had, and made me long for more holiness, and gave me greater fear of Him.

You've got diverse opinions on here, but I don't think anyone here would have you be anything other than what's said of Apollos, "MIGHTY in the Scriptures" (Acts 18:24).

this strikes me as a very foolish conversation. the holy ghost is our teacher, but the god has also given unto the church "teachers and preachers".

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers... (1 Corinthians 12:27-28 NIV) If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach... (Romans 12:7 NIV)

we need to discern between good teachers and bad teachers, but teachers are a GIFT to the church from god.

the over bearing opinion put forth in this discussion is that all we need is the bible and the holy ghost, and in some cases that may be true but considering that there is so much written in the new testament about teachers i doubt they are as unimportant as what is being said here.

this conversation is fraught with ignorance and i believe it shows the absolute danger of "bible and holy ghost without teaching". it also seems strange that so many here think teachers are a bad thing when there are THOUSANDS of sermons and teachers available for download right here on this website.

Robert Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, especially the 2nd edition.

G.H. Kersten's Reformed Dogmatics: A Systematic Treatment of Reformed Doctrine.

Thanks - http://

bare master ,i seriourly was asking my self where do you get your information from ,,can i ask you whar do get this imformation from about iran ,,,are you just asuming there is know thelogical traning

i did a quick surch and found what you are saying about the church in iran ,is nothiing but a false statment ,that is helping to casue conflict and division here

this is the first thing i found in less the one minute regarding iran

MA) Theology | Reformed Theological Seminary
(ThM) Theology | Columbia Theological Seminary
(PhD) Islamic Studies| University of Birmingham, UK

Dr. Sasan Tavassoli is a former Shi’ite Muslim from Iran. In 1985, Sasan came to faith in Christ as the result of the ministry of a group of American missionaries while he was living in Portugal.

Dr. Tavassoli is an ordained minister and has been involved in ministry within the Iranian communities in the Diaspora as a teacher and later as a pastor for the past two decades.

Since 2006 the main focus of Dr. Tavassoli’s ministry has been teaching on Christian satellite TV. His Farsi broadcasts are aired in Europe, the Middle East and Iran five days a week. He also helps to equip the Church of Iran by providing theological education through conferences and seminars. Sasan travels extensively within the US, Europe and the Middle East to preach among Iranian Christians and is extensively involved in leadership training for the growing churches inside Iran.

Dr. Tavassoli has also taught courses on Islam and Muslim-Christian relations at Southern Evangelical Seminary, Covenant Theological Seminary and Veritas Evangelical Seminary. He has authored a number of books and articles on Islam. His latest publication is Christian Encounters with Iran: Engaging Muslim Thinkers After the Revolution.

Dr. Tavassoli graduated from Reformed Theological Seminary (MA), Columbia Theological Seminary (ThM) and earned his PhD in Islamic Studies from the University of Birmingham, UK. Sasan and his family live in the USA.

(MA) Theology, Reformed Theological Seminary
(ThM) Theology, Columbia Theological Seminary
(PhD) Islamic Studies, University of Birmingham

im doubting serious what you say bare master ,and i doubt this is the only christan teaching theology in iran

may god bless us

this imformation comes from pars theoligical center

here is another brother bare thats teaching theoligy

sorry for the length of the artical ,,he is from the same organisation

Background

Mehrdad was born in a small town in the northern part of Iran. Though his parents were from a Muslim background, they were not practicing Muslims. His dad, a medical doctor, did not believe in God, and his sole goal in life was to earn money and become rich. At a time of extreme financial crisis, he fell into depression and became very anxious, so that he could not sleep even when taking strong sleeping pills. One night, he remembered a sentence he had heard from one of his professors many years before: “Jesus is alive and can change a man’s life”. Out of desperation, he knelt down in the middle of the night and prayed: “Jesus, I do not believe in you! But if what my professor said is really true, please come and change me, because I hate myself!” Next morning, he was shocked when at the hospital a Christian bookseller out of nowhere offered him a copy of the New Testament in Farsi! Unable to believe that it was a pure coincidence to meet a Christian book seller in such a small town in Iran exactly the day after he prayed to Jesus, he gave his life to Christ and was transformed into a completely different person! Mehrdad heard the gospel from his father and gave his life to Christ a year later, when he was only 11 years old.

Translating Christian Books

When as a young man just finishing high school, his faith was challenged by some of his Muslim and Communist friends at the time of the Islamic revolution (1979), he immersed himself in philosophy and theology in order to be able to defend his faith. He learned English and started reading widely in both subjects, including books written by Francis Schaefer and C. S. Lewis. He fell so much in love with these writers, that he translated He Is There and He Is Not Silent by the former author and The Problem of Pain by the latter. Later on, he translated many more books:
•The Lord Jesus Christ by John F. Walvoord
•The Old Testament Speaks by Samuel J. Shultz
•A Commentary on Genesis by Derek Kidner
•What the Bible Teaches about the Holy Spirit by S. Horton
•A Christian Appeal to Reason by Bernard Ramm
•The New Life by H. Ferly
•The Historical Books of the Old Testament by Thomas Holdcraft
•The Community of the King by Howard Snyder

Family and Full Time Ministry

When studying Engineering Electronics at university, Mehrdad received a call from God into full-time ministry. It was during this time that he met his future wife Mojdeh, who was from a Jewish background. Mojdeh and Mehrdad got married in 1987, and the fruit of their marriage is 3 children: Iman (boy) and Shadi (girl) who are twins of nearly 20 years now, and Neeku (girl) who is 16. After finishing his B.Sc. and completing his military service, Mehrdad started working full time as an Assistant Pastor in one of the largest churches in Iran. He worked as a youth Pastor and Bible School teacher for 4 years. During this time he also preached regularly at the church.

Theological Education

While working full time in the church, Mehrdad finished a B.A. in Theology through correspondence and then went to England to pursue further theological studies. He was awarded an M.A. with distinction in Biblical and Modern Hermeneutics at London School of Theology (formerly London Bible College) and then completed a Ph.D. in New Testament at the same institution in 1998. His thesis was later published as a book in Germany by the highly esteemed publisher Mohr Siebek:

Mehrdad Fatehi, The Spirit’s Relation to the Risen Lord in Paul: An Examination of Its Christological Implications, Tübingen: Mohr Siebek, 2000.

Bible Translation

While studying for his PhD, Mehrdad, together with his wife Mojdeh, also did a one year course in Linguistics and Bible Translation at the Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL) in UK. While studying Bible Translation, Mehrdad got the vision for starting a new translation of the whole Bible into Farsi. So later on with the help of Elam Ministries and Wycliffe Bible Translators, he led a team of more than 15 people, including many senior Iranian Pastors and Bible teachers, in producing the New Millennium Version. The New Testament came out in 2003. He is now working, together with Mojdeh, on the Old Testament, as Coordinator, Exegetical Adviser and Chief Editor of the project.

Academic Career

After finishing his studies, Mehrdad worked as the Academic Dean and Lecturer in New Testament at Elam College for 10 years. Till 2005, when the school stopped the academic program, more than 60 Iranians went through the two year program of Diploma in Bible, Theology and Leadership. During this time Mehrdad has taught courses on:
•Corinthians**
•Romans**
•The Gospel of Luke
•Christology (Doctrine of Christ)
•Pneumatology (Doctrine of the Holy Spirit)**
•The Five Books of Moses
•New Testament Survey
•Modern Theology**
•A Survey of Christian Doctrines

(The two starred courses are available on DVD.)

Mehrdad is also an Associate Research Fellow at the London School of Theology, has acted as supervisor for PhD students, and has also been a guest lecturer.

Writing

Mehrdad is also a regular contributor to KALAMEH, a three monthly Persian magazine published by Elam Ministries. His more recent articles were:
•Is Church A Democracy? (A study of leadership structure in the church).
•Spiritual Gifts: Yesterday and Today (1, 2, 3).
•The God of the Christians: A Brief Look at the Doctrine of the Trinity (1, 2).
•Jesus and the Kingdom of God (1, 2).
•The Christian’s Freedom and Responsibility (A study of the Place of the Law in Salvation History and the Christian Life).
•The Message of Christmas.
•If Christ did not rise from the dead! (A study of the meaning and importance of Jesus’ resurrection for the Christian life).
•You Will Be My Witnesses (A study of the meaning of Pentecost in context).
•Why did God Become Man (A study of the theology of Incarnation).
•Another Advocate (A study of paracletos in the Gospel of John).
•Why All Are Not Healed? (A balanced view of the church’s healing ministry).
•The God of the Immeasurably More!
•Unity with Christ (1, 2)
•Victory over the Powers of Darkness (1-4)
•Christian Faith and Politics (forthcoming)

Mehrdad has recently published a major study of the doctrine of the Trinity in Farsi:

Mehrdad Fatehi, The Trinity: A Look at the God of the Christians, London: Elam Publications, 2010.

His second book in Farsi, called Deep Truth: A Study of the Great Foundations of the Christian Faith, is coming out in a couple of months.

Seminars and Sermons

Mehrdad, an Elder and ordained minister of the Iranian Christian Fellowship, London, is also a preacher and Bible teacher who regularly speaks in Iranian Christian conferences throughout Europe and elsewhere. His best known series of Sermons and Seminars available on tape are:
•The Holy Christian Life (5 sermons)
•The Gifts of the Spirit: Yesterday and Today (5 seminars)
•The God of the Christians: A Brief Look at Trinity (3 seminars)
•The Nature and Work of the Holy Spirit (5 seminars)
•The Pillars of the Christian Faith (4 sermons)
•Unity with Christ (5 sermons)

Many more of Mehrdad’s sermons are also available on tape.

Satellite TV Programs

Mehrdad is a regular speaker on satellite TV programs broadcasted to Iran. His series of teachings on an overview of Christian doctrine, titled “A Deeper Look at Faith” (80 programs), and his series on the Trinity (27 programs) are very popular. He also has a live program every fortnight. He is also making a new series of programs about the ministry and teaching of Jesus for Sat7 (36 programmes).

Leadership Training by Extension

Mehrdad has established 3 extension programs for theological study in Europe, located in Austria, Germany, and the UK. Students go through one or two year college-level program through 4 annual one-week long, intensive seminars, and watching Lectures on DVDs throughout the year. Mehrdad has also been extensively involved in training church leaders of Iran in neighboring countries such as Turkey and Armenia.

Pars Theological Centre

Most recently Mehrdad has founded, together with a number of well known Iranian Pastors, Bible teachers and theologians, the Pars Theological Centre, whose vision is to lay strong foundations for a comprehensive and systematic theological education for Iran.

Let ne see here. Tbe church in Iran has only tbe word and the Holy Spirit and they are growing at the rate of 3000 converts a month. Now we in America have the Bible, commentaries, expositions, sermons, systematic theology, seminaries, and so forth. No Holy Spirit. And few converts. And no revival.

Mr Bearmaster,

how do u know this to be true? u come here and make so many declarations one has to wonder where u get ur information? no doubt that in Iran they do not have the freedom we have here, but have u ever been to Iran? do u personally know any Iranians? I do. I have. it is quite amazing how westernized they are there. they have access to much more than u suppose. it may not be sanctioned by the government (in fact what we are discussing is not) but they are a very well educated populace.

I think perhaps it would do u good to get out from behind you computer and go to sum of these places and actually see what is going on. these people in other countries do indeed beg for the word of god BUT they also BEG for sound doctrinal teaching! they can not read the letters to timothy and titus and think that teachers are not necessary! neither can we.

making arrogant declarations of things does not make them so.

i just read what brothagary posted about Iran. i guess all i can say is that i can testify to everything he posted. bearmaster, u must cease spreading ignorance on this topic. it does nothing to help the saints in Iran!

Now my question to you us what will you do?

considering that last night and today are the 1st times i've been on here in months i will probably continue on as i have been. i wish i had as much time to post and write and let my voice be heard as sum here seem to have. u havent heard our voices on this other ministry thing u speak of? truly u can not think that is the only ministry involved in iran.

instead of just praying why not go as sum of us have. maybe then u will better know of that which u claim to know so much about. :-) spend a little less time making sure every1 here knows all that u claim to know and do, brother.

i notice bear you change the subject and your possision when facts are presented to you that contradict your statment,,

but that between you and god

i noticed that in doing so you mentioned the saint moody ,,what a saint ,,but if you read what his good friend myers says about him here , you will notice he read a lot about the older theolgys and teaching of men were more into theology

Mr. Moody's study was crammed with books. He was a larger reader than might have been supposed, but mostly of the older theology and of whatever would throw light on the Bible. A book has lately been published, entitled, "A Thousand and One Thoughts from my Library," which includes extracts from a wide variety of authors. His most precious treasure was the Bible of the late C. H. Spurgeon, presented to him by Mrs. Spurgeon, and containing the entries of the dates when Mr. Spurgeon preached from certain texts

i just want to claryfie that he wasnt a lone ranger ,but was influnced by other teachers an preachers ,,,,muller and darby also had an influnce as well

moody had a good theoligy when it came to the trininy ,,the atonment ,his christolgy and phemenolgy were exceptional ,,he believed in a seconed blessings ,,he was againsts liberal theoligy ,,,loved the word of god ,and his theolgy was to focas on that as we know ,,and to study gods word

im not going to boast about who i pray for nor what minisanry socitys recive my money ,and how much i go with out to to help propagate the gosple ,,,ill leave you to that baremaster

what the father seees in secret he will reward openly

keep your burnden between you and god ,,and pray to god that others will recieve a burden according to gods will not your own will brother

dont defend your self and your words with blakmail burndans,against peopele who disagree with you

god is not honered in that ,,,,,

blessings

amen, gary. thank u 4 saying what a lot people were probably thinking.

Hi SkepticGuy,

SkepticGuy wrote ///this strikes me as a very foolish conversation. the holy ghost is our teacher, but the god has also given unto the church "teachers and preachers".

Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers... (1 Corinthians 12:27-28 NIV) ///

"and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way" and that is 1 Cor ch 13.

If those vessels By which our theologies have traveled through out the ages where great Orators but fell short of 1 Cor ch 13, would it not stand to reason that we should be very Sceptical of there systematic conclusions??

SkepticGuy wrote ///we need to discern between good teachers and bad teachers, but teachers are a GIFT to the church from god.///

This is true, But I personaly believe that their is a difference in a teacher and a scribe, We are to beware of the Scribes.

SkepticGuy wrote ///the over bearing opinion put forth in this discussion is that all we need is the bible and the holy ghost, and in some cases that may be true but considering that there is so much written in the new testament about teachers i doubt they are as unimportant as what is being said here.///

Truly, When it comes to final conclusions of faith all we need is the bible and the Holy Ghost, This is all that we can trully trust.
The Jews Today as in Jesus Day put their trust in their teachers because of this they are lost. Because of their traditions (theologies,talmud,Rabies) They can read their Torah night and day but it is of none effect.

I agree that Their are good teachers, and many that I consider good teachers have what I would consider less than perfect theology but when their heart is set on God, I believe God uses them and they have much insight for us to glean from. When their insight comes from a heart set right it is a blessing even to us hearers that differ theologicaly.

from what I know of most systematic theology, I am not convinced that a great deal of it comes from the heart but rather I personaly feel that a great deal of it comes from the intellect.

SkepticGuy wrote ///this conversation is fraught with ignorance and i believe it shows the absolute danger of "bible and holy ghost without teaching". it also seems strange that so many here think teachers are a bad thing when there are THOUSANDS of sermons and teachers available for download right here on this website.///

I have to agree with amrkelly on this one when he responded /Me thinks the danger is otherwise. Its theology and the scriptures without the Holy Spirit./

i luv when people share their opinions about other mens opinions on the opinions of men from long ago that they have never met nor taken time to study much about the men. :-)

"The theologians bread is pretty stale and devoid of any spiritual life."

So Which theologians bread is pretty stale and devoid of any spiritual life? ( i guess that was the question that started this thread?)

i think the blanket dismissal and put down of theology and teachers in this conversation is striking and fearful. which teachers r u referring 2? old teachers, new teachers, dead teachers? name names, mr bearmaster, so that we may all be enlightened. especially ironic is there are so many teachers available here on this website, all teaching theology. start with that list so that sermonindex can start deleting the 1's who fit ur discription. i dont want 2 b feeding off of stale bread! help me!

not sure what 'blow off' means. do u mean am i mad at him? no certainly not! i am quite intrigued with mr. bm! he has declared that men of old who taught theology and had a giant impact on church history are simply stale bread. i would honesty like 2 know who it is he is talking about so that i may avoid them 2.

mr. bm has made many declarations but rarely follows his words up w/ facts or names. just vague generalities, much like his many erroneous statements about iranian christians. when pressed for facts or asked how he knows what he is saying is real or true he refuses 2 answer and either changes the subject or just stops responding. when others do the same thing he is all over them. there have been a time or 2 in the past when i have simply questioned mr. bm's statements that instead of giving me an honest answer he questioned if i was even a christian. i just have questions and seek answers. that is all.

im simply wondering who he is talking about. not hard to answer that question. he should share for every1 to know if he is truly concerned with other souls.

im not asking u, armkelly. im asking mr. bm.

fair enuf, i was not aware the leaders here asked that people's names not get named or any of that. if that is so, then so be it. that answer would have been enuf 4 me (as it is now) w/out the dance.

no, have not heard of mr. bm's (i assume that is 'blaine'?) persecuted church thing. i have not paid that much attention 2 mr. bm other than what i have already mentioned. as 4 my knowledge of the iranian situation, i feel it not necessary nor important to boast on here of my involvement at whatever level it may be. but when i see untrue statements made i question the source of the statements.

i do not question mr. bm's heart or sincerity and it would be nice if he could return the favor to others.

if other of my questions had been answered on here previously i must have missed it. i do not spend much time on here. only here this week cuz i am under the weather and can not get around like usual. once i am back on my feet i will vacate once again to more productive activities than writing and waiting 4 others to respond as others seem to do on a daily basis.

hi, it is time to examine ourselves for a lack of wisdom and maturity in the way we treat each other. this un Christ like manner is all over the church and the world sees it and rejects the truth.this prideful attitude is from satan hisself. let us love one another in the bond of peace.he who loveth not knoweth not God ,for God is love.jimp you can be right and wrong at the same time.

bearmaster,
Im in the middle of reading "Holy War" by Bunyan.. its a hard but worthwhile read, and what can you say about "Pilgrims progress" there is a great cartoon on Pilgrims progress I found on youtube from the late 70s..check it out if you have time.. I think if would be good to see with the family...

P.S.
Bavink "Reformed Dogmatics" is I feel a superb read about the study of God.. especially when he talks about the inspriation of Scripture ( to answer the original question)

much love
andy

jimp, i apologize if i have come across that way, or in any way that is ungodlike. i have serious questions and i began asking them a few months ago when i joined and was met with much hostility and ridicule and my faith was questioned. ONE person here treated me nicely and took time to answer my questions at a time when i was seeking. 1 of the ladies here. every1 else was judgemental and made me feel stupid. thats not an excuse 4 me to not act in luv 2ward people here, but perhaps this explains why the wall. sumtimes this place stinks of self righteousness.

so i went elsewhere to get answers.

andrew i wss not going to comment any more but you bring my name up and draging other topics that have nothing to with topic i may as well say a few more things

i havent seen any of skeptic gys questions answerd ,,,,
who are the right teachers haere on sermon index

are the aw tozers and paullwashers john pipers who have hundreds of semons here not sound becasue they believe theolighy is important ,,,,,,an exceptable question to ask due the negative ataude to theoligy

you talk about spirit and skepticgye

changing subjests as brother blain has when confronted with facts and such else ,,can be easly asumed to not be in proper spirit ,,but my opinion was to point out the contradictory facts regarding his coments about iranians ,,and leave it at that that would be my advice about it why press it brother blain has a concence im sure

you make a mistake andrews by saying about me haveing theolgical confedence about iranians my point was to show that there was theoligy being taught in iran ,,it is not just the bible and the spirit as blain said

the topic of martin luther that greg posted ,seem to be an atack on luthers ministry and a mis repersentation of what he taught regarding faith and works

and as you just said that goes against what sermon index says is alowed to be presented in this site

so i thought it would not be out of line to posts somes of is words regarding the issue ,,so others would not stumble and judge more harsly then needed ,,,it realy had nothing to do with his overall theological mindset ,,or him being a theologen but about the doctrine of justafication by faith and good works ,,,so andrew there is no need to find and imagerary line linking the different threads

i wont say any more but to say i disagree with your opinion about how blain delt with the questions that were asked and the motive and reason he countered the questions with questions that had nothing to do with the oridgnal question

as many times we can quote men like bunyion , to back up an argument against theology ,,
we can quote men like weasly ,tozer , edwards ,paul washer , and many others to uses as some sort of evedence to back up the need for good theoligy ,,

wecan chase our own tails till jesus comes back qouting men

god bless us all with the bond of the spirit

hi there brothers again ,,,due to my brother baremastes comments about john bunyion ,,i though it not out of line to posts what a found diong a quick surch

i post this not casue arument but that so others dont get the wrong perception about john

English Bible History
John Bunyan

John Bunyan (November 30, 1628 - August 31, 1688), was the most famous of the Puritan writers and preachers. He was born at Harrowden (1 mile south-east of Bedford), in the Parish of Elstow, England. He is most well-known for his book “The Pilgrim's Progress”, one of the most printed books in history, which he composed while in prison for the crime of preaching the Gospel without a license.

John Bunyan – An Overview
John Bunyan had very little schooling. He followed his father in the tinker's trade, and he served in the parliamentary army from1644 to 1647). Bunyan married in 1649 and lived in Elstow until 1655, when his wife died. He then moved to Bedford, and married again in 1659. John Bunyan was received into the Baptist church in Bedford by immersion in 1653.

In 1655, Bunyan became a deacon and began preaching, with marked success from the start. In 1658 he was indicted for preaching without a license. The authorities were fairly tolerant of him for a while, and he did not suffer imprisonment until November of 1660, when he was taken to the county jail in Silver Street, Bedford, and there confined (with the exception of a few weeks in 1666) for 12 years until January 1672. Bunyan afterward became pastor of the Bedford church. In March of 1675 he was again imprisoned for preaching publicly without a license, this time being held in the Bedford town jail. In just six months this time he was freed, (no doubt the authorities were growing weary of providing Bunyan with free shelter and food) and he was not bothered again by the authorities.

On a trip to London, John Bunyan caught a severe cold, and he died at the house of a friend at Snow Hill on August 31, 1688. His grave lies in the cemetery at Bunhill Fields in London.

The Pilgrim's Progress
John Bunyan wrote The Pilgrim's Progress in two parts, of which the first appeared at London in 1678, which he had begun during his imprisonment in 1676. The second part appeared in 1684. The earliest edition in which the two parts were combined in one volume came out in 1728. A third part falsely attributed to Bunyan appeared in 1693. “The Pilgrim's Progress” is the most successful allegory ever written, and like the Bible has been extensively translated into other languages. Protestant missionaries commonly translated it as the first thing after the Bible. It is said that in the days of westward expansion in the United States, early settlers often owned only two books, one being the Bible, and the other being John Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress.

John Bunyan wrote many other books, including one which discussed his inner life and reveals his preparation for his appointed work is “Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners” (1666). Bunyan became a popular preacher as well as a very voluminous author, though most of his works consist of expanded sermons. In theology he was a Puritan, but not a partisan. He was no scholar, except of the English Bible, but that he knew thoroughly. He also drew much influence from Martin Luther's “Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians”.

Some time before his final release from prison Bunyan became involved in a controversy with two theologians of his day: Kiffin and Paul. In 1673 he published his Differences in Judgement about Water-Baptism no Bar to Communion, in which he took the ground that "the Church of Christ hath not warrant to keep out of the communion the Christian that is discovered to be a visible saint of the word, the Christian that walketh according to his own light with God." While he agreed as a Baptist that water baptism was God's ordinance, he refused to make "an idol of it," and he disagreed with those who would dis-fellowship from Christians who did not adhere to water baptism.

Kiffin and Paul published a rejoinder in Serious Reflections (London, 1673), in which they set forth the argument in favor of the restriction of the Lord's Supper to baptized believers. The controversy resulted in the Particular (Calvinistic) Baptists leaving the question of communion with the unbaptized open. Bunyan's church permitted pedobaptists (those who baptize children, such as the Calvinistic Presbyterian Church) to fellowship and eventually, Bunyan’s church even became a pedobaptist

pilgrims progress a most popular book from bunyon ,,,was steped in protestent theoligy showing bunyons understanding of theoligy in generel

The explicit Protestant theology of The Pilgrim's Progress made it much more popular than its predecessors. Bunyan's plain style breathes life into the abstractions of the anthropomorphized temptations and abstractions that Christian encounters and with whom he converses on his course to Heaven. Samuel Johnson said that "this is the great merit of the book, that the most cultivated man cannot find anything to praise more highly, and the child knows nothing more amusing." Three years after its publication (1681), it was reprinted in colonial America, and was widely read in the Puritan colonies.

Because of its explicit English Protestant theology The Pilgrim's Progress shares the then popular English antipathy toward the Roman Catholic Church. It was published over the years of the Popish Plot (1678–1681) and ten years before the Glorious Revolution of 1688, and it shows the influence of John Foxe's Acts and Monuments. Bunyan presents a decrepit and harmless giant to confront Christian at the end of the Valley of the Shadow of Death that is explicitly named

wikki

thanks for that bio.. I use to think that alot of the Puratins would lock themselves in ivory towers, writting thier books, but as I study some of thier lives, it wonderful to see them live out thier faiths..
and I am fully aware that they were not perfect..

andy

As the Bio on Bunyan, furnished by one of the posters in this thread, pointed out,Bunyan wrote much in the brief amount of years he lived.

Here is one among many of those great works:
http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.John.Bunyan/Sermons.Allegories/Reprobation.Asserted/index.html

Bunyan was quite the theologian, even if there be some who would like to deny that he was.

The Autobiography of George Muller Whitetaker House 1985 p.26-27

"The Lord enabled me to put this last aspect of the Holy Spirit to the test by Laying aside my commentaries and almost every other book and simply reading the Word of God. That first evening when I shut myself in my room to pray and meditate over the Scriptures, I Learned more in a few hours than during the last several months.

edit: complete

what is my favouret websight andrew ,,im not at aware of what your talking about ,,i never said bunyon was a theologin but held a certaint theolical veiw

i would like to think my self that this determination to disregard theology has some thing to do with holding to different definitions,,,

so basically any1 who had an education should be avoided. ok, got it. we r 2 only heed the teachings of those who have a 6th grade education. any1 else only has stake bread to offer.

im glad that got cleared up! lol

well i expect them here to listen to me then i only went 10 grade and didnt realy pass many subjects ,,i never had any other tranning ,never been to church more then ten or so times ,, my english is probaly worse then moodys ,,,

somes days i spent like 6 hours a day in scripture

hardly picked up a comentary

lol skeptic ,,,,oh i was converted by only the bible and spirit never herd a preacher or teacher for the first 8 years of by new life

do i qualafie lol

Bunyan may not have written as much as some others,but the amount which one has written is not a determining factor of whether one is a theologian or not. There is much protestant theology in what he has written.

Here are some more of Bunyan's works:

Grace Abounding to Chief of Sinners
Relation of Bunyan’s Imprisonment
Continuation of Bunyan’s Life
Bunyan’s Dying Sayings
Bunyan’s Prison Meditations
The Jerusalem Sinner Saved
The Greatness of the Soul
The Work of Christ as an Advocate
Christ a Complete Savior
Come and Welcome to Christ
Justification by Imputed Righteousness
Saved by Grace
The Strait Gate
Light for Those who Sit in Darkness
Treatise on the Fear of God
Doctrine of Law and Grace
Israel’s Hope Encouraged
A Discourse Touching Prayer
The Saint’s Privilege and Profit
The Acceptable Sacrifice
Paul’s Departure and Crown
The Desire of the Righteous Granted

Saint’s Knowledge of Christ’s Love
Of Antichrist and His Ruin
The Resurrection of the Dead
Some Gospel Truths Opened
Vindication of Gospel Truths Opened
Discourse on Pharisee and Publican
Defence of Doctrine of Justification
Reprobation Asserted
Questions About Seventh-Day Sabbath
Of the Trinity and a Christian / Of the Law and a Christian
Scriptural Poems
Exposition of Genesis 1-10
A Holy Life the Beauty of Christianity
Christian Behavior
Caution to Watch Against Sin
Discourse of the Building of God’s House
A Confession of my Faith and Practice
Differences About Water Baptism
Peaceable Principles and True / On the Love of Christ
A Case of Conscience Resolved
John Bunyan’s Catechism
Seasonable Counsel
An Exhortation to Peace and Unity
Bunyan’s Last Sermon

Pilgrim’s Progress – Part I
Pilgrim’s Progress – Part II
The Holy War
A Map of the Order of Salvation
The Heavenly Footman
The Holy City, or The New Jeusalem
Solomon’s Temple Spiritualized
Discourse of the House of the Forest of Lebanon
The Water of Life
The Barren Fig Tree
The Life and Death of Mr. Badman
A Few Sighs From Hell
One Thing is Needful / Ebal and Gerizim
A Book for Boys and Girls
The Struggler

We may be able to fit all these in our left pocket (thanks to technology - CD-ROM), but not Luther.

yea andrew i agree even when it comes to good christan theoligys there is disagrement ,,just like disgareement with interprataions of scripture are common

i would agree that we do come up with our own theology by just reading scripture and i surly have and i apresiate to hear others who have as well ,,but i believe god has ordaind teachers and gifted some and some have exceled and cultivaited there gift ,and are rich with knowlage and wisdom ,and i can and have lerned from them ,even a excelerated understand of scripture has been a result

the holy spirit has used wiser men then me like your self to reveal and expound truths and deeper truths that may have taken many years to discover

yea from what i understand systmatic theology is different from bibical theology as it combines bibilical theoligy with other factors ,,i woulds say i definity lean towards the bible and what that means ,,,

i personly will read some systmatic theo ,,,,becasue iv not to this date ,,iv herd some honest brothers like paul washer speak of the importants of systmatics ,,and god has used him in my life

i started out with scripture ,had scriture for the first maby 8 years of my new life ,,and had limited growth in my opinion ,,but combined it with sermons audio and video
and my knowlage and edafication grew ,,,,,even just to know others believe as i did and knew much more was edafing and exciting

scripture is the most important for me allways have but i feel i understant it better now and if i had no teachers or theoligy now and it was taken away,,what iv lernt will do me fine and i dont need it realy any more , god layed it on the foundation of his word and it helps to keep this building standing

i sopose it was different for me andrew ,what i couldnt settle or fully grasp ,god used men who were strong in theolighy to teach me not in person ,and i have been able to confendly believe afther a miraculas short time

i think god is sourven enough to do it both ways that way you decribed youe experenced and the way i experenced

thanks for you coments ,its always good to hear what you have to say ,i hold men who are wiser then me as more importaint then me ,, blessings

many of the theologians u ridicule and criticize did use the word of god as a basis for theology. u just don't agree with some of their conclusions so naturally they are hell bound and stale bread and plagues upon the church.

don't worry, mr. bm. i am on the mend and the effects of the flu r lessening. soon i will be back to my normal activities and will not have time for sermonindex. i will be out of ur hair soon. :-)

thank u 2 whoever it was who said my questions were never answered. they were not. i doubt they ever will be.

Hi SkepticGuy

SkepticGuy wrote In response to Bearmaster
///many of the theologians u ridicule and criticize did use the word of god as a basis for theology.///

The Theologians bear ridiculed read the scripture through the Lens of the Augustinian Catholic perspective this Lineage through out history endorsed persecuting to death those whom, my research thus far has shown to more represent what I find as the New Testament Model,

I find 2 lineages in History even though they seem to cross temporarly at times through out history, For the most part the one is represented as a

Trail of Blood they where defenseless Christians whom mostly taught Believers Baptism, they relied very little to none on the Post-Nicene Fathers, they seperated greatly from the world, They Where Persecuted by the intitutional Church of the day rather that be Catholic or Protesant but they did not persecute back.

The Other Lineage we see as quite opposit They embraced The Agustine Constitine Catholic perspective of show Love to you theological enemy by use of the sword, This mentality was the mentality of Augustine with the Donatist it was the mentality that led to the catholic inquisition, It was the mentality that Calvin used with Michael Servestus and that Calvin used with his lack of empathy in his response to the martyrdom of Michael Sattler. It is the Mentality that Luther had with the Jews when he wrote the Jews and their Lies and called on athorities every where to severely persecute the Jews, It is the mentality that Luther used with the Peasents when he called for their deaths in the Great Peasant War. It is the mentality that the reformer Zwingly had with regard the the Martydom of Felix Manz and others, It is the mentality that the Calvinist had toward those whom they persecuted after the Council of Dort it is the mentality that John Winthrop and other Puritans had in Boston in the Late 1600s when they put to death Mary Dyer and other Quakers.
from this Augustinian Catholic Lineage is where most of our Systematic Works have originated from.

Responding, especially to Proudpapa's last post. Here is a brief piece of my personal experience. Folks, I grew up in an anabaptist setting, mennonite in particular, quite conservative at that. Went to a private school were I learned something of their history. Until I was saved I was a wicked kid who went to church, but God in sovereign grace saved and changed me. But folks, in that "church" I did not hear the Gospel preached, I heard lots about things we should do, head veilings, rules, morality etc but nothing much at all of why Jesus died, what I did hear was shallow and lifeless. I remember after being saved sitting in that church wondering why they weren't preaching the Gospel. There seemed to be no concern with having good doctrine. There was no real, in depth preaching on the atonement, justification, regeneration, mortification, depravity,work of the Holy Spirit, attributes of God etc. They didn't teach the imputation of Christ righteousness and I suffered under slavish fear wondering whether I was saved cause I knew that I couldn't be righteous enough.I heard far more about "anaptist" and their histories and ways than I did the glories of God in the face of Jesus Christ. It is only by the grace of God and the inward teaching and keeping of the Spirit that kept me through all of that.

I thanks God for preachers and theologians like Ray Comfort, Tozer, Washer, Leiter,Edwards, Flavel, Spurgeon, and many others who taught me truth, and did so by the power of the Holy Spirit. It has brought so much joy and strength and hope. And many of these men believe that good doctrine and theology are important. I have found that the theology of the reformers is that which is centered on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

My point in all this is to say that truth and doctrine are important. Bad teaching hurts people very deeply. They certainly are not everything by any means, but they are important.

I'm certainly not saying that there aren't any saved anabaptist. I believe there are, but that doesn't mean doctrine isn't really important. Many anabaptist have a disdain for theology and I fear this is partly why many have become cold, lifeless, and legalist.

The things some of the reformers did were horrible, its possible to have good teaching yet it not be reality in your life. Some of them probably were not saved. But i fear some anapabtist weren't saved either because some teach works salvation and they preach more on good works than grace.

This is an oversimplification, but the reformers got the doctrine/teaching right and the anabaptist and others rightly emphasized holy living. But some in both camps weren't born again, some going into lawlessness and others going into legalism and good works but not by the Spirit. Both are horrible.

There are ditches on both sides the road, we must know both the Holy Spirit and the truth. We must be both justified and regenerated.

Just some thoughts,

Hi therick2018

therick2018 wrote //Responding, especially to Proudpapa's last post. Here is a brief piece of my personal experience.//

The response that you have given is a complete side step of the reality of the facts that I presented and is nothing other than an attempt to build a strawman in order to undermind the kingdom Christian lineage all together. Nothing that I wrote was in defence to all modern Anabaptist groups.

We would not judge John Wesley according to an experience with the modern liberal Methodist Church
But it would be most feasible to research the Character of Wesley before excepting his doctrines blindly.

What I presented was what I understand to be facts about the Actions of the Men whom are the fathers of your systematic understanding.
many of these theological understandings from my research where not taught before the Catholic Augustine invented them.

Listin to what Paris Reidhead had to say about Augustine and his view of original sin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHgsZv1JyJE

I have been where you are therick2018 believing that all of the Churchs modern problems where because of Finney and the so called second awakening as you put it, But I have found that if one ounce of church history is recorded accurately that is just not the truth. You hate Finney because you disagree with him theologicaly but you excuse the men that invented your theology no matter what their personal actions where.

therick2018 wrote ///I thanks God for preachers and theologians like Ray Comfort, Tozer, Washer, Leiter,Edwards, Flavel, Spurgeon, and many others who taught me truth, and did so by the power of the Holy Spirit. It has brought so much joy and strength and hope. And many of these men believe that good doctrine and theology are important.///

Even though I disagree theologicaly with some of those whom you mentioned when they preach from the heart, I am also thankful for them.

therick2018 wrote //My point in all this is to say that truth and doctrine are important. Bad teaching hurts people very deeply. They certainly are not everything by any means, but they are important.//

But as history shows us theology and systematic theology specifically easely can become an idol and hurts and even causes the deaths of many people.

I wounder How many Wars have been caused because of the Idol of theology??

I wounder how many people how many Saints have been murdered because of the idol of theology??

therick2018 wrote /// certainly not saying that there aren't any saved anabaptist. I believe there are, but that doesn't mean doctrine isn't really important. Many anabaptist have a disdain for theology and I fear this is partly why many have become cold, lifeless, and legalist///

I certainly would not say that there aren't many saved of the reformed tradition , I personly believe that there are, but that does not mean that there doctrine is right, Speaking of cold we have already presented several cases through out history of the actions that are produced when men have such a zeal for theology as to set it up as an idol.

therick2018 wrote // things some of the reformers did were horrible, its possible to have good teaching yet it not be reality in your life. Some of them probably were not saved. But i fear some anapabtist weren't saved either because some teach works salvation and they preach more on good works than grace.//

One Problem that I have with this statement and with your entire post is that you are making Generalizations in response to my post that I used mostly specifics and specific actions of specific men. by doing so you are creating an illusion with out having to be responsable of presenting facts which causes dificulty for me to respond,of course their where many bad early anabaptist especially among the German radicals but they where in no way conected with the early swiss brethren, I would challenge you to do a bit of research on what the Early Swiss Brethren believed and how they lived. You might start with the Schleitheim Confession another interest of research is John Calvin response to the Schleitheim Confession which can be foud in his book'Treatises Against the Anabaptists and Against the Libertines'by John Calvin

therick2018 wrote/There are ditches on both sides the road, we must know both the Holy Spirit and the truth. We must be both justified and regenerated./

Well said.

They were considered uneducated buffoons against the intellect of Luther and Calvin. Yet the Anabaptist had the word of God dwelling richly in their heart.

this is an extraordinary statement. not that u said the anabaptist had the word of god dwelling richly in their hearts, but that u are clearly saying that men like luther and calvin did not. where duz such discernment and wisdom come from, i wonder? u indeed have great spiritual gifts and perception to make such judgements against men who turned the world up side down and radically reformed the church 4ever, and freed us from yoke of bondage of the catholic church. remarkable.

i am feeling 100% better from the flu, there4 i will resume normal activities in my life and will not have much time 4 sitting on my posterior burning my eyes out staring at a computer screen. god has much more important things for me to be doing. this will come as a great relief to u all, i am certain. :-)

i'll stop by perhaps next time i am sick!

just keep livin'

Dear readers,
If my comments offended anyone i am truly sorry.. I try not to post so much for that reason, but i too have been sick in bed these last 4 days, and had more time to post and read others writtings, but by God's grace tomorrow be back at work
love andy

Hi SkepticGuy

bearmaster had written "

They were considered uneducated buffoons against the intellect of Luther and Calvin. Yet the Anabaptist had the word of God dwelling richly in their heart.

SkepticGuy responded ///this is an extraordinary statement. not that u said the anabaptist had the word of god dwelling richly in their hearts, but that u are clearly saying that men like luther and calvin did not. where duz such discernment and wisdom come from, i wonder? u indeed have great spiritual gifts and perception to make such judgements against men who turned the world up side down and radically reformed the church 4ever, and freed us from yoke of bondage of the catholic church. remarkable.///

This has for sometime had me really scratching my head as I have and do study and meditate on this subject, It causes some what a crises within me, as I have been so indoctrinated with the idea of what inspired insight the reformers had, what heroes of true Christianity they where. And to have heard so many years of things that they taught that seem spot on.
To study history not only from various perspectives but also their own writings and to find an almost unhuman lack of empathy that it seems they had for those whom differed even slightly in theology from their own, causes me to scratch my head till my hair starts falling out.

When I first read 'The Jews and their Lies' by Martin Luther, I honestly thought their is no way that Luther wrote this, the writers boastfulness and arrogance and lack of empathy is so far removed from the impression of Luther that I had thought of. So I got 'the Bondage of the will' no It did not take much reading before I realized It was the same person that wrote both.
Such boastful personal attaking writting style would not last a day on SI, Can you imagine me writing 'whom are you that repliest against proudpapa' If I used such phrasing you would lable me as an egocentric void of the truth.

But yet reformation apologist will argue that the egocentric and demeaning writing styles of the reformers was just how people where in those days and for that reason we should excuse their bizzar behavior.

But I find two problems with that excuse the one is a plow boy with a third grade education can derive such behavior as being unexceptable according to scripture and the other is that though I do not live during their times, many others did and they rejected and spoke against the reformers because of such behavior. many of the less educated understood such behavior as being unexceptable and some of the more educated such as Erasmus also found it shocking.

But I can read about the early Luther and his courage against the Catholic church and his conversion of faith and many sound things that he wrote and taught and it seems a different person all together from that of the Old Luther and I find research to suggest the same about most of the reformers.

It seems that God did use the reformers and atleast at first filled them with some light but how they ended the way they did keeps me scratching my head.

Hopefully when we get to heaven we will find out that some jesuit distorted all of their writtings and all of church history but as far as of now I have found no indication of such a case.

hezzie, perhaps sum of my words to BM were out of feeling sick as a dog. not sure, but earlier in my membership here at sermonindex i was seeking sum legitimate answers to spiritual questions that i had. i still have those question because no1 answered them. BM was highly sarcastic and aggressive 2ward me (in my opinion) and questioned whether i was even a christian. if i seem harsh 2ward him this is why. as stated in a previous submission there was 1 lady here who took time to attempt 2 answer my questions. i did get annoyed at the time that no matter when or what i wrote on the forum there was BM to ridicule my question and claim that i may not be a christian for not understanding what is apparently so obvious 2 him.

ur correct, this duz not give me an excuse to not act in luv. i have not much more to contribute to the conversation at this time as god has more important things 4 me to do. perhaps another time we can discuss further.