What is a church?

The thread entitled 'where is the church?' provoked this question again in my mind. What are our expectations for a church? or, much more importantly, what are God's expectations for a local church?If we could establish some criteria it might help us to know whether or not we were succeeding. I hope those who contribute will notice the careful title; not 'what is the church?' but 'what is a church?'

My ideal of a Church? Man I have been thinking about this. Maybe a place where the people are truly grateful for there slavation because Christ is worthy of there praise and worship. A place where you could come in and not feel like you have to find the ones you will fit in with because you are the same as all of them. Where the older and more mature are happy to help and guide the younger. And do it willingly and with out being asked. Where if someone is moved by the Holy Spirit they would have no fear of asking to speak to the body. A place where preachers and teachers from others churches would be welcome and encourged to share there words. Where reaching the lost is THE number one goal of the church sunday worship and wednesday night prayer are prepatory for the job of going into the world as a light and reaching the lost with the Gospel.Well that is my idea of a Church and I believe that a church and the church should not be a discerniable difference.

I always liked the definition that Lars had in his signature here on SI;Church-a definitionEnough brokenness gathered in one place for Life to find an entry for ministry.In Christ,Ron

Brother Philo,I hope that everyone weighs in at least once on this interesting question. For me, the temptation is to answer your question with the ideal and the iconic. First of all I could take the low road and answer what the church is not. The "church" is not a building for public worship, a place to practice the sacraments, or a denomination, or blah blah blah.Next I could take the high road and recite that the church is the "ekklesia", the called out or the summoned group, the particular and distinctive people of God on a mission, being used as God's instrument blah blah blah.. I don't believe these are the kind of answers you were interested in hearing, Ron. It's obvious from your writing that you have already heard all of the triumphant truisms and heavenly hebraisms that I could muster up.Can we find a biblical definition of church that I can touch and serve with my hands? In order for that to be the case this church needs to be made up of real living people not the ghosts of "first century Christians." Are we looking for a benchmark definition here? A showcase composite made up of Joels Army commanded by the Apostles...walking in power across the surface of the earth, tearing down strongholds and casting out demons, our faces aglow with the light of heaven as Stephens face was to the astonishment of a skeptical world? I certainly hear the lamentations for this kind of church today. By the waters of Babylon we sit longing for a church that has vanished.Hopefully any definition of the true church we come up with, however perfect it is, can include us. Not that it should mind you...I just hope it does. By "us" I am thinking of men with mortages and 60 hour work weeks, single mothers with children, teens from violent homes, and other broken vessels. Some with money , some with debt, some with health, and some with cancer. Admittedly, my definition of "us" is certainly very westernized. My point is that I hope our church definition has room for the particular people we know...that's all. Particular people are all any of us ever truly know. Given this, it's interesting that it's these same particular people that have the hardest time fitting in our universalist iconic ideals. Of all the people I've met from Shenzhen to Nuremburg, from Colombo to Paris, from Time Square to Picadilly Circus I have never met an icon.Like I said, I hope everyone takes a shot at this one. In the very least we'll have a portrait of the desires God has placed in our hearts. Blessings.MC

Hey RonEphesians 4:2-16 2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.From this text I think the church is an expression of the body of Christ working together for the unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son of God. Every believer has an important role to play and therefore since every member is a part of the body. From this it is seen that the “effectual working in the measure of every part” is paramount to the increase of the body. In this church setting (in my own opinion) there is a channel through which every member can express itself to the whole body either directly or indirectly and there is high level of responsibility in every member to provide “that which every joint supplieth”.Ephesians 5:21-33 21 submitting to one another in the fear of Christ. 22 Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord, 23 for the husband is head of the wife as also Christ is head of the church. He is the Savior of the body. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as also Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 to make her holy, cleansing her in the washing of water by the word. 27 He did this to present the church to Himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and blameless. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own flesh, but provides and cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 since we are members of His body. 31 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. 32 This mystery is profound, but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 To sum up, each one of you is to love his wife as himself, and the wife is to respect her husband.From this text, the church is the bride of Christ. As it was when Adam was put to sleep (Genesis 2) and he awoke with woman so it is when Christ was put to sleep (crucified) and he awoke with a bride (the church). The church is likewise not a separate entity form Christ, it is literally the body of Christ which derives its existence form him; even as woman is not separate from man (1 Corinthians 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.).1 Corinthians 11: 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of GodIf Adam represents Christ and Eve represents the church from verse 7 we get that Christ is “the image and glory of God” (Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;)We also get from verse 7 that the church was created for Christ even as Eve was created for Adam and that the church is the glory of Christ (John 7:22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one).These verse also line up with the eternal purpose of the Church but maybe we will talk about that later, or I will leave that to someone who is more versed in this matterJames

I believe a church is the practical and spiritual expression of Jesus Christ here on earth in the world but not of the world.As a body we are Jesus in life, as individuals we are Jesus in life.There can be no higher purpose for a church than this.

if "a Church" does not behave like "the church" then it is no church at all. The two can not and should not be separated.

oh and 'the church" should be a people who are about God's business, worhipping Him in spirit and in truth.

Like I said, I hope everyone takes a shot at this one. In the very least we'll have a portrait of the desires God has placed in our hearts.Me too, which is why I am being unnaturally quiet at this stage. Like many teachers when I ask a question it because I 'think' I know the answer. But I'm not lurking to pounce on anyone, and my answer when it comes will be just that 'my answer'.With one or two exceptions the answers are the kinds of answers I was expecting. Please, folks, do have a shot. I trust we are not the kind of people who 'know what we don't like' but rather have some expressible desires for something.

Ironmanif "a Church" does not behave like "the church" then it is no church at all. The two can not and should not be separated.Isn't this a bit circular? What I mean is 'how can the church behave like a church' until someone has decided what a church is.Suppose I said I want you to behave like a 'schlumpf'. What would your first question be? Exactly... which is why my first question is what is a church? When we have decided what it is we should have a better idea of what it is supposed to do. And if we compare what it is supposed to do with what it is doing we shall have some idea of how well we are doing as 'schlumpf'.:-D Some older readers may remember 'schlumpf'. It is a useful word for creating definitions. Instead of the word that everyone knows put in the word 'schlumpf'. We should now be able to define shlumpfl so that someone will say 'oh, you mean...' The problem with 'church' is a longstanding one. Tyndale only ever used the word of heathen temples, preferring the word 'congregation', but the unifying translators of the KJV, under the specific direction of King James, were commanded to put the word 'church' back into the text. James' Rule 3 stated "The ould ecclesiasticall words to be kept viz. as the Word Churche not be be translated Congregation etc."So I repeat my question; "what is a church?"

Hey RonI hope you guys do not mind if I have a second go at this, my favorite topic!I believe that churches are ordained and upheld by the approval of Jesus Christ. Let us consider this:Mathew18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.It is hard to define what “gathering in the name of the Lord” is but I believe the only important definition is that of Christ. If we are gathered in the name of Christ he will be there; that is to say, that Christ’s presence is a mark of, “gathering in the name of the Lord”. I do not believe a collection of people can simply declare themselves to be a church, but it is only when they are truly “gathered in the name of the Lord” that they become a Church. Consider the following verse.Revelation1:20 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches[From this we note that according to the Lord in this instance the Church is depicted by a candlestick. Formerly (verse 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.) we see Jesus walking in the midst. This is the sign of approval that these are in fact churches. If Jesus was not walking in the midst they would cease to be churches. Consider also this verse:Revelations 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.We have already seen that Jesus is he who walks in the midst of the candlesticks. We also have seen that the candlestick is a church. What would the removal of a candlestick mean? It would mean that Jesus is no longer walking in their midst. It would mean that they have ceased to be a church in the sight of Christ and of the Father. Christ is the church, and without him there simply is no church to speak of before God.Christ is the sum of all spiritual things before God, and Christ is the church.Colossians1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Without Christ we are nothing more than a collection of people, no matter what we think we are doing.The individual members in the church are each an expression of Christ in some way, we are a part of him, because it is his Spirit that is manifest in us. His Spirit is manifest differently in each of us hence, we are each a different part of the body, not based on our works and ideas but based on the manifestation of the spirit of Christ. If Christ is a physical body, then every one of us is a different part of that physical body according to how the spirit is expressed in us.Colossians1: 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:Paul call’s this the mystery of the gospel, that our Lord Jesus Christ lives in these temples (our bodies- 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.) and expresses himself through them. We are members of the body by virtue of what the Spirit express through us not simply because the bible says so. If the Spirit is not allowed to express itself then the membership is questionable.To sum up, the Church is an expression of Christ’s Spirit through the individual members of His body.

PhilologosIt has alresdy been decided what the church should be so that is not up for discussion. We as a church should be concerned with whatever it is God wants us to concern ourselves with be it intercessory prayer, praise and worship and just being obedient to what God commands. At the end of the day that is all He really wants. The church is a group of people who are concerned with doing what God requires of them and actually doing those things. Is that a definitive enough definition? Or it is also the body of Christ which does whatever Christ (the head) requires.I must say Schlumpf is rather old school...this is the first I'm hearing of it... :-P

IRONMAN wrote:We as a church... I think that you have answered the question rigth there with that statement. The Church is people - the persons of the Trinity and the people who make up his body.(Rom 12:4,8; 1 Cor 12:12; Eph 5:29,30; Heb 10:5-7)Taken from Dudlel Daniel's manual: Biblical Leadership Part 2

Brother Ron: where you going with this?It's really thought provoking since I see "a" as a singular expression denoting the noun(church----person place or thing) here and was wondering what exactly you see here in your own question after 30 or 40 years of pulpit ministry?

Some years ago I was thinking about this topic and thought about the reference in 1 Tim 3:16. I noticed that in the original the definite article is omitted, twice.. so that it reads "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in a house of God, which is a congregation of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." (1Ti 3:15 KJV)dohzman noted my use of the indefinite article. Greek doesn't have on but the sense is carried if we supply one.I was in the home of a Scottish family and I have always had a healthy respect for the native logic of the young. So I thought I would ask some simple questions of the children of the home.What is a house? Answer: a place to live in and be at home in. Good answer I thought.Who lives is Anna's house? Anna, she said patiently.Who lives is Uncle Ron's house? Uncle Ron, she said, with a suspicious look in her eye.Who lives in God's house? God,of course. she said.Now, can you see where I am going?

philologosso we are talking about the house of God,the church and also of the church then and they should be ideally?

Philo,You have me intrigued now. (I wish I could be more child-like when it comes to God.)Your house picture reminded me of these verses. I hope they are some of the bread crumbs leading us to what is on your heart regarding the church.Jesus said,Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it upLater James, during the momentous Jerusalem Council recalled the prophecy of Amos. After these things I will return, and I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen, and I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord...So we see that there is a new buidling that God is raising where He can dwell... For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” Though this new tabernacle/temple is His building, it is sobering to think that He may not always feel welcome. For instance to the loveless He warns:Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and (I)repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. And to the indifferent lukewarm dwelling he graciously pleads, not from within but standing on the outside: Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.This is not to imply that God's dwelling place is flimsy, wobbly, and ready to collapse unless we strain harder. Instead, having tasted fellowship with God in this dwelling place, we are hungry for a more perfect habitation. For these hunger pangs Paul encourages us:For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.Amen.The mystery in Paul's words is that this building, this house, this habitation is at once both on earth and in the heavens...Blessings.MC

Longing for a true...intention.What did our Lord declare? What did He expect of us as His Church, in actuality that is the only church there is and the only one that should concern us.Our most recent member, Andyz has quite a bit in regards to the house church ideal on his site. Am still reading through a very good article in this regards Houses That Changed The WorldIt has much to chew on and still feels balanced enough in regards to where we have come from to where we are now today. Here comes that word again: "Flux"Painfully obvious that there is a rumbling going on and change is a foot. Think there will be a definition forthcoming as this unfolds in reality. Now the question is, which definition?Glad that I backtracked here:Ron asked:If we could establish some criteria it might help us to know whether or not we were succeeding. I hope those who contribute will notice the careful title; not 'what is the church?' but 'what is a church?'Not entirely sure if this is correct as Ron alluded to earlier in the usage of the word, but trying to apply the principle of 'first instance';Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Wrote this out yesterday and let it stew.Coming back to it again, it seems the issue is of the meaning of "A" or in other words...Where do we 'put these folks'?Again, think the thoughts being expressed in the said article (It is quite long, but relevant) are worthy of some serious consideration.Somewhat in what goes on here in it's quirky cyberspace kind of way seems to have elements of it, 'church', while missing many others, meals, singing...The article makes a good point in regards to size limitations (20 seeming to be about max) and the effects of passive/active style fellowships. The ideas of smaller gatherings with more larger 'celebrations' at different times. Just tossing this all out there. Whatever 'it' becomes I can only hope it is more 'old' than new in the sense of 'modeled' after the Lords intentions.Also what may be helpful is to hear again Ron's experience in his church. From what I recall there were some element's of a more interactive style setting.

MikeI have just read the first 15 points of the article you linked and I think this is the most practical thing concerning the church I have hear in a long time. I do especially agree with the issue concerning size. In a small church we are more likely to have communion not only vertically (with the Lord) but horizontally (with each other). I listened to a sermon by Mr. Katz and I could not help musing similar sentiments as he said, “I remember sitting in one of my first church meetings and participating in the Lord’ supper. I sat in a room full of strangers, with one stranger on either side of me. We were handed a small cup and a leavened biscuit and held up our cup and biscuit waiting for the instruction to begin eating and drinking “together”…although we ingested the food at the same time, it was hardly “together”. Such is the story of modern “communion” and we wonder why we do not touch the glory of God. I do not want to turn this into a complaint post but I would just like to recommend the article brother Mike linked. That is right on target bro! Thanks.James

Mike C writes:And to the indifferent lukewarm dwelling he graciously pleads, not from within but standing on the outside: Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. (Gen 28:17 KJV)In the previous verse I believe we find a clue- Jacob said; surely the LORD is in this place.... This is none other than the house of God and this is the gate of Heaven. This agrees with the dreadfulness Moses experienced at the burning bush. It is the habitation of God that seems to make something His 'house.' We are His house as individuals if God inhabits us. We are the Temple. Which brings me to a horrendous series of thoughts that have been plagueing my mind even before a conference I attended this weekend. Paul said that if any man defile the Temple of God then God will defile them. What am I to make of the full blown attacks that I hear against the Church- both in public before sinners and in private with believers? There is something about much of the so-called 'repentance' movement that is making me want to run for my life. People talking about rebuking the Church? That would be like rebuking another man's wife- only we are not talking about another man we are talking about Jesus Christ- the one to whom all power in Heaven and Earth has been given? Where is the fear? Where is the caution? when Paul corrected Corinth he cried over what he had to write in I Corinthians and seemed to almost second guess himself in sending the letter. Where is that tenderness? I tell you of a truth, I had rather been struck by lightening than to rebuke the Bride of Christ or under some pretense start disqualifying who is and is not the Bride and rebuking them. Nay verily, who am I to defend the Bride- God will arise and scatter His enemies. He will speak from the whirlwind to those who darken counsel without knowledge. I would be almost anyone but them on that day. If there had been a real John the Baptist we had known it; yet we cannot substitute our feelings and positions for God's. John the Baptist was the Oracle of God in his day until Christ.God Bless,-Robert

In the previous verse I believe we find a clue- Jacob said; surely the LORD is in this place.... This is none other than the house of God and this is the gate of Heaven. This agrees with the dreadfulness Moses experienced at the burning bush. It is the habitation of God that seems to make something His 'house.' We are His house as individuals if God inhabits us. We are the Temple.Robert,Yes, this is where I was 'heading'. It is first and foremost a place where God can make His presence 'felt'. Jacob felt as if he had woken up on heaven's doorstep. God is in this place. It is surely no accident that Paul says this is what happens in a 'real' church...But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. (1Co 14:24-25 KJV)God is 'in' or 'among' you, truly. Not a mention of the choir or the coffee? ;-) There is a hint of another for our "lists of characteristics of 'a house of God'" in that verse too. Any more offers?

God is 'in' or 'among' you, truly. Not a mention of the choir or the coffee?Yes. I think as we move on we would need to add a new category for 'expression' of faith, fellowship, and worship. Much of what we do in services and meetings seems to fall under the heading of 'expression.' The sad thing is that the 'expression' can become as dead as commandments and traditions of men. But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. (1Co 14:24-25 KJV)This is New Testament Christianity. Lives lived in the fulness of the Spirit. Who could be bored under these conditions? There is no greater fulfillment to me in this life than to know for sure that God was manifesting Himself to us in a verifyable way. Not flakiness, but the real stuff. There is a hint of another for our "lists of characteristics of 'a house of God'" in that verse too. Any more offers?The next clue I see is when Jacob says; "the Lord was here and I did not know it." It is at the point of revelation or let me say the time of manifestation that we become conscious of God. He was there all along, but until God revealed Himself to Jacob in a dream- he had not had his Bethel experience. Look at how his life was altered simply because Jacob suddenly became conscious of God. This is like unto Job who said that he had heard of God by the hearing of the ear- but now his eyes beheld Him (as it were). This is New Testament priviledge. This is what we read of even in the most 'carnal' of churches such as Corinth. A lot is being said about the Church, but where can one go and find the manifestation of the Spirit at even a Corinthian level? I would answer that the finger of God is manifest where a people are submitted to the Holy Ghost enthroning Christ as KING. It could be one or two or a thousand so long as that level of communion with God can be maintained. A few thoughts...God Bless,-Robert

One item of note from the Old Testament is that the house of God was built on a threshing floor.Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where [the LORD] appeared unto David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.(2 Chronicles 3:1)No chaff here before the presence of the Lord, nothing may remain that isn't the real thing, nothing that won't contribute to building up his House, or to change the metaphor, His Body.In Christ,Ron

Hi all,what a great topic to discuss!in the light wrote "No chaff here before the presence of the Lord, nothing may remain that isn't the real thing, nothing that won't contribute to building up his House, or to change the metaphor, His Body."excellent point but as i read it i immediatly thought about the wheat and the tares parable growing up togetherin a church gathering there will always be a mixture of folk. maybe this was not your point:-) a church in my opinion a place where God dwells,a hospital a refuge a training ground a light set on a hill, not hidden not hirachical and a family,shareing God shareing life shareing all.does this exist?but with risk of bareing my heart I'm still looking, my wife says that i'm never happy fully wherever we've been:-o I know the things that i value and desire to see in a group meeting as a church.My experience seems to show good bits are in one but then not in another :-) I am running the risk of not making any sense at all so enough from me :-)

No chaff here before the presence of the Lord, nothing may remain that isn't the real thing, nothing that won't contribute to building up his House, or to change the metaphor, His Body.Let's not change the metaphor... for a while. The Body is another wonderful image, but there is much more to say about 'a house of God' first. :-) Can I add one to the list? That stairway/ladder with angels ascending and descending... 'a house of God' is a place where heaven touches earth and there is open access from earth to heaven and from heaven to earth.

Can I add one to the list? That stairway/ladder with angels ascending and descending... 'a house of God' is a place where heaven touches earth and there is open access from earth to heaven and from heaven to earth.Thats a real good one. It just strengthens the definition of religion I once heard. Religion: worship in the absence of God.It seems that there is a desire in people for God to manifest Himself to us- yet there is this continual fear of flakiness that seems to be putting a strait jacket on what many will deem acceptable. Even those such as Jacob's experience may be frowned upon today in many circles. Yet, what do you do to keep the excesses in check?

Religion: worship in the absence of God.I recall many years ago when I was part of an Anglican church and a young man was recounting an important civic event that had occured in the church building the previous week. "Everyone was here," he said, "the bishop, and the lord mayor, the local head of the scouts, the boys brigade and the local Round Table. The Army veterans and the womens institute." Then he paused, thought a moment and said "I'm not sure if the Lord was here, but everyone else was here". out of the mouths of babes...

Dear bro robert,I like this quote it made me laugh and say "how true"Religion: worship in the absence of God.I recall in some previous thread me asking,"does a church have to be a certain number,is there proof that, say for instance the ephesian church was one congregation" or that the 3000 added in the begining of Acts all met as one group.I guess I'm asking does God want big.I strongly believe in family and community does this break down when a church gets to a certain number? :-)

Hi Delboy,I have used the analogy before that services or meetings are like potluck dinners. If noone brings anything there will be nothing to eat- but if everyone brings what they are supposed to there will be a feast. People have a strange impression that someone else is supposed to pray down a move of God. Someone else is supposed to be full of the Holy Ghost and have an unction to speak. Pretty soon folk come to the meeting expecting to "receive" and not to "give" in worship. They go from church to church looking to be 'fed.' What ever happened to eating at home? Some hope the guy beside them is full of God and that somehow they will get something from the service. That is like going to the potluck without a dish. It's ok if you really need prayer and all the brothers and sisters are filled and ready to minister; but what happens when the preacher and a few deacons are praying and maybe a few congregational members and there are 200 people showing up to the service week after week?The total Spirituality is not the issue to me- it is the average (as it were). If you have a service of 5 people and 2 are praying that is 40%. If you have 100 people are 40 are praying that is 40%. It seems to me that God is as apt to move in the 5 or the 100 as the issue is not a matter of sum; but average (spirituality). Now that is a crude illustration for sure- but it helps illustrate my point. If the guy who never brings a dish is upset because he can't feel God and the message is not right- whose fault is it? No one has the right to complain of a move of God if they have not been seeking God theirselves. I know this is not rocket science, but sometimes we just have to look at it practically. ;-)God Bless,-Robert

Good stuff here.Pretty soon folk come to the meeting expecting to "receive" and not to "give" in worship. They go from church to church looking to be 'fed.' What ever happened to eating at home?Seem to recall a certain scripture about that...Something that really stood out here:"Meeting"Maybe a bit to optimistic, but thinking on these things here and with the ideas still running about the house church 'format', for lack of a better word, with it's smaller gatherings and larger 'celebrations' am not quite ready to chuck the idea of doing away with sermons or preaching.... Having said that, I just realized that there is that obtrusive 'me' in there.Wondering if the Lord might be willing to grant us both. Something of a blending of the two.To back up to Roberts point a bit, concur wholeheartedly about... If the guy who never brings a dish is upset because he can't feel God and the message is not right- whose fault is it? No one has the right to complain of a move of God if they have not been seeking God theirselves. I know this is not rocket science, but sometimes we just have to look at it practically.A certain part of the struggle there for those that are conscientious of these things and good to throw that back into the mix here. What are the motives behind all these things? Can definitely be pulling out and moving on for all the wrong reasons.

I've followed this thread with much interest.Ron mentioned the ladder and the angels ascending and desending---the same phrase is used by Jesus when he talks to Nathaniel.Same order. I wonder if the order--ascending/desending has any thing special to gleen from for us???

I've followed this thread with much interest.Ron mentioned the ladder and the angels ascending and desending---the same phrase is used by Jesus when he talks to Nathaniel.Same order. I wonder if the order--ascending/desending has any thing special to gleen from for us???dohzmanThis was an unmistakable claim to be the 'house of God'. It is only 18 verses later that He says Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. (Joh 2:19 KJV)

Philo,Could you, (and anyone else) share some of your thoughts about this idea that the church is both in Heaven and Earth. This truth is having a marvelous effect on me. It is replacing this notion that we remain "geographically" or even structurally separate from where God is, with a notion that we, who were homeless, are now given a place in His household...though we can not yet fully grasp the full glory of this reality...For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, ... There are many other unimaginable truths that may reveal more about the "architecture" of this house then we dare to believe...And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus...More then merely condescending to a church that remains on earth, God's very throne is our sanctuary as prophecied by Jeremiah.A glorious throne, exalted from the beginning, is the place of our sanctuary.This awesome reality is made possible by God's provision in Christ, Our "ladder."But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.There are some of my thoughts on this great thread. More then being a house we are part of a household filled with all the saints. Here is what I imagine to be a wonderous revelation recorded for us of this joyous mystery...Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.My goodness, how ignorant I am of what the church is.MC

Could you, (and anyone else) share some of your thoughts about this idea that the church is both in Heaven and Earth.Unless God steps out and dwells among the people in a real and verifiable way it is not a 'Church.' Whether in a Temple or a building or a house or a church building it matters not. The question is- is the Holy Ghost showing up corporately? Where there is no vision the people cast off restraint. There has to be both revelation (not something 'figured out' but something 'revealed' of God) and utterance (when the Holy Ghost bears witness to the words by His presence) to speak LIFE into the lives of those who hear. When the Spirit of God shows up He can do more in a minute than I could ever do in a lifetime of teachings. If the Church is not the Oracle of God it is not the Church. Not fair speeches. Not stringing together words that have a 'show of wisdom.' Not a ear tingling articulation or fancy weilding of words. But the very place from which God speaks through the Body of believers. This is a lesson that has to be learned. We have to learn to wait on the 'wind' of the Holy Ghost before we set out to do His bidding. If we go without it- we go on our own power. This is light years from programs and schedules. It is a million miles from litergy. whether you pray or preach or speak or sing- for the sake of all who are there wait on the utterance and direction of God. The jews did everything they could to shut God out- we must do everything we can to invite Him to manifest Himself to us- even as Jacob. When God shows up there will be a revival. There will be conviction. There will be repentance. There will be restoration. There will be deliverance from the enemy. There will be these things that we try to 'teach' but bever seem to 'reach.' Paul told the church at Corinth that when he showed up he was not going to 'know' the speech of them that are puffed up but the power (dunamis). He would not be fooled by eloquence- he would sense the presence of God or the absence of God. Maybe we are loosing multitudes to backsliding because we are trying to establish the peoples faith in the wisdom of man instead of the power of God. Some perchance mistake a good guitar rythm or bass line for the presence of God. If they 'feel' something emotional- they may mistake it as the Holy Ghost. Yet there is a presence of God that comes and will change people. He is the 'life' of the Church. We have to be the habitation of God or we will worship, sing, teach and preach in His absence. We must let God be God.God Bless,-Robert

My goodness, how ignorant I am of what the church is.for most of us we have 'spent our lives among shadows and broken images'. (C S Lewis)the church is certainly in heaven and earthFor this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Eph 3:14-21 KJV) but a church has its own unique place in God's plan. To add another to our list from Jacob's experience. It is a place where the voice of God can be plainly heard.And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; (Gen 28:13 KJV)Jacob heard no uncertain sound, but a house of God is a place where heaven's voice can be heard on earth.Somewhere in this thread we shall need to ask ourselves the question; if these are the inherent characteristics of a true 'house of God'how are we doing? This is not essentially a matter of method or local colour. I belong to what is still essentially a 'house church'; we just outgrew the house. I personally believe that a 'house church' is the most flexible setting in which God might make His home, but that does not guarantee that He does.So far here's my list; a place where God's presence is manifesta place where heaven touches earth with free access and two way traffica place where God's voice is plainly heard...

if these are the inherent characteristics of a true 'house of God'how are we doing?This is a very sobering and convicting question. God help us.

So based upon what Bro. Ron has added to the list would it be fair to say that a 'Church' is a place where folk can come and ask: "What is God saying?" and get an accurate answer? (notice I did not say- what God has 'said'?- but what God is saying right now- to this moment and situation)

Good clarification between the church and a church . (You were careful to make that distinction at the beginning of this thread, weren't you? :-D )OK, I'm seeing that along with the manifestation of God's presence, and experiencing 2-way access to God's throne, that there is agreement that the church is to be prophetic . So that I can stay focused here, when talking about "a place where God's voice is plainly heard," and "what is God saying?" are we talking primarily about spoken verbal communication? I am thinking of the church as God's voice to the world. MC

I've always favored the comment Jesus made to Nathanael when he said "behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deciet"(nasb).I have always believed that to the degree we'er honest before Jesus in the same measure we would in our lives enjoy the same Open Heaven . The effects of an Open Heaven over our lives , I believe , would be unfettered communication with The Lord of Glory and the benefits are almost beyond comprehension. I'm not sure if Nathanael's character qualities is in line with your original question on what is a church (house) , I wait to see which way this thread developes.This has been an enjoyable thread to read through.Bro. Daryl

I am thinking of the church as God's voice to the world. I am thinking of a church as a church. ;-) It has to be before it can do.

It has to be before it can do--- That almost burns within my heart a reality that we don't see here in America. There seems to be the surfacing of a onesideed gospel. No mention of mans responsibility and God's responsibility in the church relationship and function. Could you sometime in this thread note not only what a church would look like and how do we measure up to it but also what our responsibility is verses God's?

"It has to be before it can do"How Zen shall we live? 8-) Seriously guys, what does that mean? Can a church be something that does nothing? I understand the idea found in Acts of waiting for power...Perhaps the house would get more wind through the window if we opened the door to let it out. I'm thinking of the first 2 chapters of James' epistle, or Isaiah 58.Let me snatch the pebble from your hand...MC

As one who goes to the various church bldgings and ministers what I see is that most people don't really believe they are the church.They say they are christian but as a life style they don't really believe it in thier works or character.So I fully understand how Ron used that phrase, "it has to be before it can do".Where you attend try this, ask thoughs you worship with if they are free from sin--self--and are overcoming the world, and just watch the excuses come.Most ---christians don't believe we can live the christian life to the full so why would they really want to share with others what they have??

Seriously guys, what does that mean? Can a church be something that does nothing?The promise to the pre-pentecost disciples was that they would receive "power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be... (Act 1:8a YLT)This is not Zen or vague mystic notions, but an invitation to stop and consider what we are trying to 'do'. We often hear stirring exhortations which conclude with the request for 'more'.No, a church can not 'be' and 'do nothing'. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. A light cannot but shine. But if I am not a light no amount of exhortations for 'more' is going to enable me to shine.Winston Churchill once described the fanatic as 'a man who redoubled his effort when he had forgotten his aim.' I know that some readers of this thread are anxious to 'get on' and 'tell us what to do'. But I am trying to encourage an unhurried contemplation of the real purpose of 'a church'. The outward evangelical church of the 20th century spent its time rushing from one 'sure fire solution' to the next. The energy and finance that were put into one project after another must be astronomical! I think if we can pause for a moment or two and rethink what the real purpose of 'a church' is we may be able to get more steam going through the pistons and less through the whistle.

They say they are christian but as a life style they don't really believe it in thier works or character.This has me so grieved, I don't know what to do with myself. There's a knot in my gut. We need a miracle. If the church does not wake up, what is going to happen in this world? My grief is so painful tonight, I don't know if I can even go to work tomorrow. We need a miracle. I'll say it again. How shall it come? Len Ravenhill always said it would come through traaaavail. I'm travailing, but I'm agonizing in it. When is the miracle going to come?

I hope my zen and pebble comment came across as a friendly jest, not a slight. :-o I think I get your statement. It must be a real church, before it can function as a real church. Joels prophecy fulfilled as in Acts 2.I suppose I could do with a little less steam in my whistle:-D In no hurry,MC

Ron says- No, a church can not 'be' and 'do nothing'. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. A light cannot but shine. But if I am not a light no amount of exhortations for 'more' is going to enable me to shine.No, a church can not 'be' and 'do nothing'. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. A light cannot but shine. But if I am not a light no amount of exhortations for 'more' is going to enable me to shine.There we have it Sir. This is a very grave and profound comment and one worth meditating on I think. It is something I tried to allude to earlier by a rather weak exegesis: James says: We have already seen that Jesus is he who walks in the midst of the candlesticks. We also have seen that the candlestick is a church. What would the removal of a candlestick mean? It would mean that Jesus is no longer walking in their midst. It would mean that they have ceased to be a church in the sight of Christ and of the Father. Christ is the church, and without him there simply is no church to speak of before God.It is hard to define what “gathering in the name of the Lord” is but I believe the only important definition is that of Christ. If we are gathered in the name of Christ he will be there; that is to say, that Christ’s presence is a mark of, “gathering in the name of the Lord”. I do not believe a collection of people can simply declare themselves to be a church, but it is only when they are truly “gathered in the name of the Lord” that they become a Church.I must ask you sir, that when you are referring to a church do you refer to the physical structure and the administration side or do you refer to the spiritual structure? The administration and practical side (in my opinion) of actually being one is often more difficult and demanding than the spiritual side.On the spiritual side I think Compton’s statement is worth a another look. Compton says: OK, I'm seeing that along with the manifestation of God's presence, and experiencing 2-way access to God's throne, that there is agreement that the church is to be prophetic .As much as I agree with you, I have also noted that the “prophetic” is not quite as welcome in the modern church as we would like to think. I have my own thoughts on what I think is prophetic but what do you mean by this? How do you think it can be implemented? Dozhman says: As one who goes to the various church bldgings and ministers what I see is that most people don't really believe they are the church.They say they are christian but as a life style they don't really believe it in thier works or character.So I fully understand how Ron used that phrase, "it has to be before it can do".Where you attend try this, ask thoughs you worship with if they are free from sin--self--and are overcoming the world, and just watch the excuses come.Most ---christians don't believe we can live the christian life to the full so why would they really want to share with others what they have?? I share your sentiments although, I recently stopped trying to assess congregations and rather focus my efforts on the church. There are people in congregations for whom I can only pray, but those who are truly about the Father’s business are a church inside the congregation. It is strange when you have a church making intercession for their own congregation but more often than not this is the case. One thing I have noted is that though there is a place for the large gatherings, church intimacy and the oneness of believers in which the Lord is manifest is typically difficult in such a setting. The Lord has been gracious enough to guarantee His appearance only with the presence of two or more in His name. Could it be that we need a presence of smaller church gatherings in cohesion with the large one to effect some real fellowship? In small gatherings, it is easy to get everyone’s full attention and focus. It is more likely (though not necessarily) that everyone’s strengths and weaknesses will be manifest in smaller gatherings especially if you genuinely care for the people you meet with (John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another ). With that I would like to conclude and say that one prerequisite for a church is true spirit anointed disciples. James

No, I realised your Zen and pebble themes were jests. Although it was a legitimate question. It's just that I think we have to ask other questions first, 'zen' we can move on to your 'pebbles'! :-P

I must ask you sir, that when you are referring to a church do you refer to the physical structure and the administration side or do you refer to the spiritual structure? The administration and practical side (in my opinion) of actually being one is often more difficult and demanding than the spiritual side.I'm thinking very much in terms of the spiritual encounter. Buildings and administration can facilitate or hinder 'church' but the heart is that 'meeting' between God and man.I think 'being gathered into His Name' is key concept which might not mean quite what we think it means. Does, for example, a single opening prayer which concludes with 'in the name of Jesus' constitute a properly 'gathered into His name' church meeting?

Does, for example, a single opening prayer which concludes with 'in the name of Jesus' constitute a properly 'gathered into His name' church meeting?It's interesting how that Peter and John were on their way to pray when they met the man at the Beautiful Gate. This is the spiritual state that these men were in "on their way" to pray, they said "silver and gold have I none, but such as I have I give unto thee..." They had something. What was it? And do we have 'it'? And if we say we have 'it' why are we not doing as they did? Paul said he was coming to know not the speech of them that were puffed up but the 'power'... For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power (I Corinthians 4:18-20). What was he talking about? When he came to 'know' our (whatsoever it be)- would he find what he was looking for?

I think 'being gathered into His Name' is key concept which might not mean quite what we think it means. Does, for example, a single opening prayer which concludes with 'in the name of Jesus' constitute a properly 'gathered into His name' church meeting?Yes you bring another good point. I have found this ‘gathering in His name” very hard to define…maybe you could help me out here. I did conclude however that if we are not gathered in His name the He is not in the midst. This now brings to surface another question, how can we tell if Jesus is in the midst or not? Does one require a gift of discernment or is this for every believer to experience and appreciate? I am not really talking about manifestations but the presence of God. I trust this is not a strange concept to you all but it would be interesting to hear what you all think.

I think 'being gathered into His Name' is key concept which might not mean quite what we think it means. Does, for example, a single opening prayer which concludes with 'in the name of Jesus' constitute a properly 'gathered into His name' church meeting?More specific to the question we have to look at the whole issue of authority. When we say we are gathering in Jesus' name or are casting out devils in Jesus' name we are dealing with authority. So if we open up a meeting with a prayer 'in Jesus name' it means nothing if the parties involved are not in active submission to the authority of Christ. We can 'draw near' with our mouths and our heart be far from Him. Our affections may be set on things below and on the earth. The world will seduce our affections to lead us away from our first love in Christ; hence Ephesus may have been meeting in 'Jesus name'- yet they had left their first love. So we see then that there is a direct relationship to our affection for Christ and our authority in Christ.

RobertYes, and this passage is all about discipline and the right use authority in a church. I have pedantically said 'a church' because these conditions could never be fulfilled by the whole church in heaven and earth.For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Mat 18:20 KJV)This much loved verse really relates to judgment in the local church. If we read it in context we discover that under certain conditions Christ presences Himself among His people and endorses their disciplinary activities. Consequently, if the conditions are fulfilled, what his servants decide upon earth is authenticated in heaven. Sobering stuff isn't it?But this is not a 'kangeroo court' or ad-hoc do-it-yourself lynch mob; it is a gathered group. The word gathered is a "perfect participle in the passive voice" which means it could be translated... "For where two or three are, having been gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." The verse has always been translated as though the voice were 'active' and the people were doing the gathering; the passive voice implies that 'someone' gathered them. And the One who gathered them 'into His name' is currently 'chairing' their meeting.This 'church' apparently doesn't belong to the congregation or the elders, but to Christ. It was a truth Paul had expressed to the Ephesian elders; "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (Act 20:28 NASB)

Consequently, if the conditions are fulfilled, what his servants decide upon earth is authenticated in heaven. Sobering stuff isn't it?That is very sobering! Especially when we recall the words, ...behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. (Acts 5:9) Could it be that he 'bound' that sentence on earth and God 'bound' it in Heaven?Look also at these:What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness? (I Corinthians 4:21)For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (I Corinthians 5)These all seem to have that common thread of authority to deal with matters in the Body. What reverencial fear would come if God was binding together what those who were exercised in that authority was ruling.

RobertW wrote:When we say we are gathering in Jesus' name or are casting out devils in Jesus' name we are dealing with authority. So if we open up a meeting with a prayer 'in Jesus name' it means nothing if the parties involved are not in active submission to the authority of Christ. As the topic focusses, it seems that this may highlight the fact that we are not as altogether before God in our own temples as we would like to be. Perhaps the authourity of Christ in our own lives is shallow and superficial, when all the time we think that we are on the cutting edge of his will.Going off on a bit of a... I think that the horror of our lives is to see the true nature of the beast that lies within each of us.

Ron---I believe you're right when you say I shouldn't despair as I minister to the cogregations that with in them is a church of true believers.I rember what King David said when He stated that he would worship God in the great congregation and in the congregation of the upright.Anyway I'll need to catch up on this post when I get back.God Bless---Bro. Daryl

I think that the horror of our lives is to see the true nature of the beast that lies within each of us. ZekeO, have you ever considered a career in writing copy for greeting cards? ;-) MC

Psa. 16:11 \tYou will show me the path of life;\tIn Your presence is fullness of joy;\tAt Your right hand are pleasures forevermore. Psa. 27:5 \tFor in the time of trouble\tHe shall hide me in His pavilion;\tIn the secret place of His tabernacle\tHe shall hide me;\tHe shall set me high upon a rock. Psa. 46:4 \tThere is a river whose streams shall make glad the city of God,\tThe holy place of the tabernacle of the Most High. Psa. 61:4 \tI will abide in Your tabernacle forever;\tI will trust in the shelter of Your wings.\t\t\t\tSelahPsa. 84:1 \tHow lovely is Your tabernacle,\tO LORD of hosts! Psa. 132:7 \tLet us go into His tabernacle;\tLet us worship at His footstool. Ezek. 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. In ChristJeff

Amos 9:11 \t“On that day I will raise up\tThe tabernacle of David, which has fallen down,\tAnd repair its damages;\tI will raise up its ruins,\tAnd rebuild it as in the days of old; Acts 15:16 \t“After this I will return\tAnd will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;\tI will rebuild its ruins,\tAnd I will set it up;Heb. 8:2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. Heb. 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Rev. 13:6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. Rev. 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. In Christ Jeff

Compton wrote:...have you ever considered a career in writing copy for greeting cards? Never thought about it, but I am glad it made you feel welcome. :-)

Those who tabernacle with Him.In ChristJeff

It did! Good one ZekeO!God bless you! :-P MC

Wow! that nailed it brother Ron. I have watched the church world run after one small move after another, the lastest is " A purpose driven Life". Now I'm not against these things but it seems as if people need these things and are willing to chase the next christian labeled fade that comes down the pike rather than chasing hard after Jesus himself personally.It seems to me that from the pulpit to the pew we want already digested christian antedotes for the quick fix or immediate self gratification to our spiritual lives.I rember Dr. Tozer saying the way to holiness is hard. What do you see as mans responsibility in the God man relationship and the God responsibility in the man God relationship?

One of my passions is the local church. I think it was FF Bruce who said the 'early church was designed for catastrophe'. It was something like the internet (if I understand the internet) not single links but multiple linkings. If a single link was taken out the life could just find another route. A hierarchical system doesn't have this ability. If you take out a link in the chain the chain fails.This is one of my axioms about organisation (Zeke?) that there must be, again what the computer folk would call, massive redundancy built in. That is to say if one bit goes down the whole thing isn't lost. Bruce refers to catastophe. The early church had suffered major blows. The Lord spent three years training James the brother of John, gave him unique gifts and abilities, and Herod took him out. (I know that God is over all) The church continued. No one was indispensable although everyone was needed.Many years ago I began to think about the early church and its structure. I dipped into the writings of the early Christian Brethren; G H Lang, W E Vine, A N Groves. Their lights seemed to confirm mine. I read wider; the Edwin Hatch lectures on the Organisation of the Early Churches. The more I read the more I became convinced that the 'pattern' of the early churches was almost infinitely flexible (more redundancy). I developed a conviction that although Western patterns of 'church' were disastrous when carried into simpler societies there was a basic pattern that could take root in any culture. I began to search for the irreducible minimum for a local church. These convictions were further strengthened by the reading The Spontaneous Expansion of the Church; Roland Allen and the biography of Barclay Buxton "The Reward of Faith in the life of..." Buxton said that the 'gospels and the acts both covered a period of about 30 years; there were designed to show what God could do in one generation!'I then spend some years workting with young leaders from many countries in a small Bible School here in Reading. We sat around a large Victorian table and I spent 5 years asking myself, 'what is church and what is culture?' Some aspects of culture may provide a bridge to a locality, but if used in the wrong culture will create a barracade.This was why I asked the question 'what is a church?' and why I began to go back to basics to discover what the biblical concepts of a church were. One of the descriptions of a local gathering of the saints is 'a house of God'. The first use of that term 'House of God' is in the account of Jacob in flight from Esau. I think there are some other basics too...I have struggled for a word to describe this but it comes from my observation that in Gen 28 God speaks to Jacob and says;And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; (Gen 28:13 KJV)He connects Jacob to the previous generation. Perhaps the word I am looking for is 'continuity'. Although this is a fresh start in another sense it is stated continuation of what has begun elsewhere and earlier.I believe a local church will have a sense of being part of the whole church, vertically down the ages. It may be rejected by the church, horizontally across the world, but there will be a sense of being part of something much larger and much older. God's word to Jacob is built upon the foundation of God's word to Abraham and Isaac. To me it is an enormous encouragement when I have struggled to preach something and someone chooses a Wesley hymn which says in 6 verses what I have just struggled to say in 60 minutes, but the continuity is tangeable.Some here may have wondered at the strength of my opposition to pseudo-Quakerism; it is because the Quakers were my family, my Abraham and Isaac. So were the Wesleys, and the Primitive Methodists of the next generation, and the Salvation Army and Oswald Chambers and many others... I hate to see my family being maligned. In a genuine 'house of God' the word will not pretend to uniqueness or novelty; it will arise out of what God has already said to others before us.The circumstances will be different but something will be the same. The old voices will echo in the new building. Some time ago I wrote a little introduction to Sermonindex. I wrote;In these thousands of audio files I find not just truth, but the Spirit of Truth continuing to breathe life into the old but never old-fashioned gospel. It is a 21st century experience of the `mystical fellowship of the saints' where we can drink deep from a rich variety of evangelical preaching. For preachers themselves, it provides the priceless gift of a balance of teaching from many streams within the evangelical family. It is a veritable treasure-house of evangelical preaching to challenge the heart and enlighten the understanding.The wise householder was said to bring forth out of his treasure things new and old;Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. (Mat 13:52 KJV)What is genuinely 'new' and from God will always draw with it the 'old'.Much of the western church over the last 100 years has failed to see the difference between the new and the novel. There is never any need for the novel in a 'house of God' but there will constant need for the 'new' but a 'new' that has an unbroken fellowship with the 'old'. The 'novel' will produce independence and pride; the 'new' will produce interdependence and humility.

philologos wrote:What is genuinely 'new' and from God will always draw with it the 'old'.That is indeed true and I believe that is Gods heart on the matter, but have you ever seen the 'old' embrace the 'new'. Countless times through history the old 'order' has always been threatened by the new and attempted to dicredit it. I am sure you have seen vivid examples of this.

That is indeed true and I believe that is Gods heart on the matter, but have you ever seen the 'old' embrace the 'new'. Countless times through history the old 'order' has always been threatened by the new and attempted to dicredit it. I am sure you have seen vivid examples of this.I was talking about the 'ministry' of God that draws out the old. The order of this verse is very telling. the wise householder brings from his store 'things new and old'. It is seldom in my experience that the old draws out the new.

Church History is full of mans tabernacles built to certain truths that have been revealed from the master of 'the house'. It is unfortunate that God the Fathers admonition to Peter 'This is my son, hear him' has not been more readily applied within those groupings/ denominations Must have stopped short in receiving Gods truth both old and new.

Br Ron wrote:Much of the western church over the last 100 years has failed to see the difference between the new and the novel. There is never any need for the novel in a 'house of God' but there will constant need for the 'new' but a 'new' that has an unbroken fellowship with the 'old'. The 'novel' will produce independence and pride; the 'new' will produce interdependence and humility. Jer. 6:16 Thus says the LORD:\t“Stand in the ways and see,\tAnd ask for the old paths, where the good way is,\tAnd walk in it;\tThen you will find rest for your souls.\tBut they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ Jer. 18:15 \t“Because My people have forgotten Me,\tThey have burned incense to worthless idols.\tAnd they have caused themselves to stumble in their ways,\tFrom the ancient paths,\tTo walk in pathways and not on a highway, You are correct, God calls us to go back to the ancient paths. In ChristJeff

rookie wrote:God calls us to go back to the ancient paths. I may regret asking this, but in regards to this thread, what are the ancient paths? Please try to explain when you insert long lines of scripture. I find it hard sometimes to see how they tie it into what youre saying.

Sorry Br. Zeke,Amos 9:11 “On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; In Amos, the prophet speaks of raising up the tabernacle of David, which at that time had fallen down and was in ruin. God tells Amos that He would rebuild the tabernacle as it was in the days of old. I believe the church of God consist of those who dwell with God. We are given examples from Able on through today of men and women who dwelled with God. Those who dwell in the presence of God are His bride. He is the Husband and those who believe are His bride. God spoke in many places of His people. Paul identifies three of these areas in Scripture. 2 Corinthians 6:2Cor. 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:\t“I will dwell in them\tAnd walk among them.\tI will be their God,\tAnd they shall be My people.”17 Therefore\t“Come out from among them\tAnd be separate, says the Lord.\tDo not touch what is unclean,\tAnd I will receive you.”18 \t“I will be a Father to you,\tAnd you shall be My sons and daughters,\tSays the LORD Almighty.”I will be a Father to you, that is His promise to His sons and daughters. This is another example of those who tabernacle with God. Finally, all those who tabernacle with God, who dwell with God will experience the covenant of circumcision. They will be given a new heart, a soft heart. God will write His laws on the mind and in their heart. They will sing to God:Psa. 84:1 \tHow lovely is Your tabernacle,\tO LORD of hosts! Psa. 132:7 \tLet us go into His tabernacle;\tLet us worship at His footstool. In ChristJeff

You are correct, God calls us to go back to the ancient paths. That isn't what I said. Read it again. ;-)

Sorry Br. Ron I drew to much out of what you were saying. I went off on a tangent because you mentioned:This was why I asked the question 'what is a church?' and why I began to go back to basics to discover what the biblical concepts of a church were. One of the descriptions of a local gathering of the saints is 'a house of God'. The first use of that term 'House of God' is in the account of Jacob in flight from Esau. I think there are some other basics too...The notion of the 'HOUSE OF GOD" brought my thoughts back to those who spoke of dwelling with God in the past. Psa. 26:8 \tLORD, I have loved the habitation of Your house,\tAnd the place where Your glory dwells. Psa. 27:4 \tOne thing I have desired of the LORD,\tThat will I seek:\tThat I may dwell in the house of the LORD\tAll the days of my life,\tTo behold the beauty of the LORD,\tAnd to inquire in His temple. Psa. 65:4 \tBlessed is the man You choose,\tAnd cause to approach You,\tThat he may dwell in Your courts.\tWe shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,\tOf Your holy temple. Psa. 90:1 \tLord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Psa. 91:1 \tHe who dwells in the secret place of the Most High\tShall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Rev. 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. What is a church? It is the house created without human hands. There is only one church, those who dwell with Him.In ChristJeff

What is a church? It is the house created without human hands. There is only one church, those who dwell with Him.No, that is not a church that is the church.

Eph. 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her. Human aspects of culture, location, generation cannot add anything to His church. In fact, aspects that are of the carnal mind are stripped away from His church so that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or and such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.Everything of this world is a blemish, a filthy spot allowed to fester in the religions of men. We see this all around us in this generation don't we?In ChristJeff

Would a church not be 'one part' or 'component' of a huge organism, the Body of Christ, sustained by the very breath of the Holy Spirit and the support of the other contributing members? Would it not be one more piece of that which holds the head? Would it not be a living organism that has been placed into the Body as an essential element? Would it not be one of many members? Would it not be such in which there is always the danger of another saying, "I have not need of thee..."?

Eph. 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.This is the church too. I think the 'church' in view in Ephesians is always the church, while in 1 Corinthians it is a church which is in view. Sometimes both can carry the same metaphor as when the whole church and a local church are both described as a 'body', but some metaphores can only be carried by one which is why a local church is never described as a bride. The universal church is the house of God, while the local church is a house of God.

philologos wrote:The universal church is the house of God, while the local church is a house of God.To drag this thinking out, in your answer as to what is a church, it is what is within the context within it finds itself. :-? It is a peculiar manifestation of the Spirit of God in a specific locality.

It is a peculiar manifestation of the Spirit of God in a specific locality.It is a unique setting in which the Holy Spirit is free to reveal Christ. It is potentially the Kingdom of God made real. It is God's kingdom, God's House, God's tilled field, God's heritage on earth. It is 'chez God'.

1 “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,.....Rev. 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’Rev. 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,Rev. 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’Rev. 2:12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,Rev. 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’Rev. 2:18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,Rev. 2:24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—27 \t“He shall rule them with a rod of iron;\tThey shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;28 and I will give him the morning star.Rev. 2:29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ 1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Rev. 3:6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’Rev. 3:7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.Rev. 3:13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’Rev. 3:14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.In each of these individual churches Christ seperates those who overcome from those who have fallen. To each of these churches all things spoken to any one church is applicable. “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”So in my understanding the kings and priests of God co-exist in individual communities and that part of the local church is both alive and dead. In ChristJeff

I sometimes feel as if in a real sense as in Hebrews 12:18-29 we are entering several dimensions at once , our earthly and heavenly together and somehow we join with the eternal heavenly host lifting praises to the Lord and in a real sense are united with each other even though we are seperated by distance. Bro Ron , I so long for a place, setting, where the Holy Spirit is given complete freedom !

Br. Ron,Thankyou for your patience with me. What is the church and what is a church are truly to different questions. What is a church?A church is a work of Jesus Christ who opens a door to Him in a local community. “These things says He who is holy, He who is true, ‘He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:His work in a local community begins and ends with Him. He opens the door and closes the door. Thus the church becomes the light in the community because of Him and if He determines that the work is finished in that community then He shuts the door. "The Church" is part of a church if it is indeed the work of our Shepherd. The Church is a vineyard where the word of God is sown and watered. The product of the vineyard is the fruit of the Husbandry of our Shepherd. Should the vines not produce the fruit, in time He will cast away the vineyard. The word of God becomes the means by which a church is brought into the Light. The Light remains only so long as the source of the Light determines. The saving of souls is the focus of the work of the word of God. Just some thoughts this morning. Again thankyou Br. Ron for bringing this thread. In ChristJeff

I sense that there is much to be learned in this question, "What is a church?"God selected Bethel, "House of God" as the place where Jacob recieved the promise. Jacob would after time return to Bethel. There he and his family lived until the time of famine. In this example we are given a sense of destiny. God chooses the place and time that we might enter in. The importance of "a church" that contains "the church" is the means by which God through Jesus Christ has ordained His ways of bringing up His family. Just like the precept of how God established the relationship between Adam, Eve, and children, the church is a paralell. God establishes His church in local communities to raise up fathers, mothers, sons, and daughters. So what does this mean in terms of the "out of church movement?" I am out of church at this moment. I believe that I am not where God wants me. Also, my former pastor called two days ago, after a year has past. I have not called him back yet. Coincedence? Probably not. Sorry for the rant. In ChristJeff

dohzman writes:I so long for a place, setting, where the Holy Spirit is given complete freedom !and I for more...After WWI many American farm boys had had a glimpse of another world. There was a semi-humourous song with the line 'how we gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they've see Pari?' :-) To awaken hungers is a big responisibility. Perhaps you are beginning to glimpse what 'might be' or even what 'was once'. How are we to respond to these hungers? Not by criticising what 'is' but by reaching out in our hunger to God. Frustration is a call to prayer not to action. The deadliest thing would be for someone to 'try' to produce 'a church'. The body without the Spirit is dead, no matter how perfectly formed it might be.I am blessed to be part of a church where the eldership really endeavour to make room for the Spirit; it is not without its dangers. It is a high-risk policy. Sometimes we soar, sometimes we land on our nose! Sometimes we soar because the last time we landed on our nose. There is no guaranteed strategy but there is a conviction of the voice of God in the heart which says 'this is my church'. This is my object in this thread. Not to produce a sure-fire technique; Nadab and Abihu had a sure-fire technique! My purpose is to consider again that 'a church' is 'a house of God'. It is God's place; not the pastors', nor the elders', it does not belong to the denomination or movement, but to God.Somehow, perhaps step by step, we have to find a way of giving Him back His house.

Br Ron wrote:Somehow, perhaps step by step, we have to find a way of giving Him back His house.If we view a church as ours then we err. It can only be:Amos 3:3 \tCan two walk together, unless they are agreed? In ChristJeff

To awaken hungers is a big responisibility. Perhaps you are beginning to glimpse what 'might be' or even what 'was once'. How are we to respond to these hungers? Not by criticising what 'is' but by reaching out in our hunger to God. Frustration is a call to prayer not to action. The deadliest thing would be for someone to 'try' to produce 'a church'. The body without the Spirit is dead, no matter how perfectly formed it might be.This is quite a statement. I think it is worth pondering for a while.

What happens to "a church" where Jesus removes the lampstand? Can we have a "hunger for God" if He has removed the lampstand.Can we understand what it means to "hunger for God" if the door to the church has been closed by Him who has the key of David?What does it mean when God chooses to hide His face? In ChristJeff

In another thread, a discussion has started on the condition of "many churches in Western Europe."Has Jesus removed the lampstand from "many churches" of Western Europe?Look to the fig tree is it already summer? We do not have the keys to open the door, it is all dependent upon Him. In ChristJeff

What happens to "a church" where Jesus removes the lampstand? There is only one church where this was threatened; Ephesus. I visited the ruins of Ephesus many years ago; the whole town died ultimately. Most think the harbour silted up and the area become mosquito infested. Close by there is a town called Seljuk. In the 1970's a Turk there found a copy of the New Testament and began to read it. When he met up with Christians some years later he was a solid believer and his New Testament seemed to have every line unlined and linked to others. He had devoured it.The lamp began to shed its light again after a gap of perhaps 1800 years. In the early 1970s there were less than 12 known Turkish believers; today there are estimated to be about 4000. The light had gone out in all those seven churches, but now it begins to shine once again.

Br. Ron wrote:The light had gone out in all those seven churches, but now it begins to shine once again.So the promise is made once again to a generation in it's time. Genesis 17:7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. In ChristJeff

Listen to the promises that Christ gives to each of the churchs.Rev. 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’Rev. 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’Rev. 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’ 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—27 \t“He shall rule them with a rod of iron;\tThey shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;28 and I will give him the morning star.4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.I have not meditated on these promises to the churches. But I sense that these promises describe the Spiritual manifestations that will exist in any church where the lampstand remains in the tabernacle. I know that the promises also define the work of Christ in the churches where the lampstand remains. I know that those who benefit from these promises will do the work that has been foreordained before the foundations of the world were laid.Eph. 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. In ChristJeff

The lamp began to shed its light again after a gap of perhaps 1800 years. In the early 1970s there were less than 12 known Turkish believers; today there are estimated to be about 4000. The light had gone out in all those seven churches, but now it begins to shine once again.Praise God. That must have been an awesome trip.

One more thought:The promise of God defines the outcome. Zech. 4:6 So he answered and said to me:\t“This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel:\t‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’\tSays the LORD of hosts. There is much to understand by searching out His promises.In ChristJeff

That's wise counsil and it registers with my heart as something to be applied in my life right now.I've been seeking the Lord , when I speak there are results but it still seems empty or superficial to me, that has left me frustrated.Time to pray---time to ask The Lord to help me awaken a hunger for Jesus in his people.Time to pray.Thank you---Bro. Daryl

Within a church you will find the mysteries of the kingdom of God revealed through the word of God. Jesus said that one must understand this parable in order that one may then begin to understand all parables. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that\t“Seeing they may see and not perceive,\tAnd hearing they may hear and not understand;\tLest they should turn,\tAnd their sins be forgiven them.’ ”Mark 4:13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”A church will comprise of these four groups that Jesus has taught about. The mysteries of the kingdom belong to those who are of the final group. All the other are tares amongst the wheat.In Christ Jeff

The Meaning of the House of God by T. Austin-Sparks If we go on with God, the Cross leads us immediately to the House of God. The Cross opens the way to the House of God, and the House of God depends for its full meaning upon whether the Cross has done its work. A great many people think that the Church, the House of God - or whatever you may term it - is a doctrine, a part of a system of Christian truth. Have you thought that? Well, let me say that you are wrong. What is the House of God? We may first name a number of things which it is not. The House of God is not a part of a system of Christian truth or teaching. It is not a congregation with religious services. It is not a Christian society with a membership. It is not a religious association for religious purposes. Yet these are the ideas that are in so many minds when we speak of the House of God. People think of it as a place where religious observances are carried out, or as a society set up for religious purposes. The House of God is the spiritual relatedness of believers. "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body..." (1 Corinthians 12:13). That is the House of God... a spiritual relatedness. But it is more. The House of God is the recognized and active relatedness of believers. It is not a nebulous thing. It is not an abstract idea. The spiritual relatedness of believers is very wonderful, but there must be a recognition of it; and that relatedness must be made an active thing. That is the House of God. Then the House of God represents a greater measure of Christ than is possible to any number of separate individuals. Separate individuals can never come to the Lord's fulness. It will necessitate all the believers for the Lord's fulness to be entered into; but to come to it, believers must needs be in a relatedness... and that, an active relatedness. That is very practical. Any life that is a free lance - that is independent and detached - will be limited, even though there may be belief in the spiritual relatedness of all believers. This thing has to become practical - an actual working thing. Fellowship is essential to fulness. We know that is why the enemy has never ceased trying to scatter the Lord's people - to divide, subdivide, and divide again. He is always after that, because he knows that actual relatedness is the way to the fulness of Christ - the way in which what Christ is in heaven becomes expressed here on the earth. Fellowship and relatedness after a practical sort is an important thing on the earth, and it cannot be repudiated. We cannot, without robbing the Lord of something, pass it off as something which has irreparably broken down and can never again find an expression. Not at all. The Lord has not taken that attitude. That represents surrender to the devil - the devil's triumph amongst the Lord's people. Actual relatedness, which involves persistent fellowship, is the way of heavenly fulness. That is the House of God, the heavenly fellowship of born-anew children of God here on this earth. You see that a feature of the House of God is fellowship - actual fellowship. Given that, another feature arises and becomes manifest... and that is Life. Oh, what Life there is in fellowship. The Life of the Lord - His risen Life - is manifested in fellowship, and that is a feature of the House of God. And is not the House of God, the Body of Christ, intended to be the expression in a corporate way of the fact that Christ is alive - is risen? Then Life leads to light... and in the fellowship of the Lord's people there is a ground for the Lord to communicate the knowledge of Himself in a way that He cannot do to isolated individuals; that is, if they are isolated by their own fault. We are not talking just now about that geographical isolation which cannot be avoided, but we are dealing with spiritual isolation, spiritual separateness. The Lord reveals Himself in the midst of His people in His greater fulnesses. Thus the House of God is a very practical thing, bringing us on the way to heavenly fulness; and we have to recognize that we are under a great responsibility for what the House of God represents in the matter of spiritual fellowship. It is the place where the personal is put out and we no longer live unto ourselves, but unto one another - unto Christ and for Christ - in order that there may be an increase of Christ.First published in "A Witness and A Testimony" magazine, Mar-Apr 1937, Vol 15-2

Thank you TheophilusMD. T Austin-Sparks had some wonderful insights into the church, many of which had their counterpart in a church. His writings are particularly clear on these things and can be found on a dedicated T Austin-Sparks website. This section relates to the church.

The following is taken from Austin-Sparks’ book, God’s End and God’s Way and deals specifically with “the local church”:1. - The local church or assembly is intended to be locally all that the Church as a whole is universally. It must not be smaller in its vision, its vocation, its relatedness. Though locally placed, it is universal in nature, outreach, concern, and function. If it lives unto itself it will die. Fullness is dependent upon its spiritual length and breadth, and height and depth. 2. - The local church is the spiritual training-ground for all usefulness to the Lord. There all the essential lessons are learned, not by teaching alone, but by spiritual discipline. The very vital lesson of subjection to the Lord - which means so much in the matter of spiritual growth - is learned in a very practical way in a true assembly and fellowship life. All independent, unrelated, and merely personal life is impossible when the "Body" is truly recognized. The spiritual support, upholding, encompassing, and covering of the Lord's people in something more than a general way is of tremendous value and consequence. Far from the local church being but a "congregation" or a preaching place, it is intended to be a local expression of the family of God, and to fulfil all the functions and provide all the values of a true family life and relationship. 3. - The matter of pre-eminent importance in the local church, as in the universal, is the absolute sovereign headship of Christ. Anything which usurps this, or in any way conflicts with it, will most certainly result in spiritual limitation and proportionate retarding of growth. Is this not why, in the New Testament churches, no one man exercised headship, but elders - not an elder - were appointed. The "Body" principle is upheld in the corporate, and individual sovereignty is prevented. At Antioch the "Holy Spirit said" to a company of representative men, who were together in spiritual responsibility. Eldership is representation - spiritual measure, not ecclesiastical. The New Testament plurality of eldership means that the church is brought - as in and by its representatives - under the complete sovereignty of Christ through the Holy Spirit. 4. - We must then see that the Apostles never set out with the plan to form churches. That was the spontaneous and necessitated result of the Holy Spirit's work in every place. Christ was preached and accepted, and relatedness spontaneously followed (see Acts 2:42). That which decides churches is Christ. This is the solution of and the answer to many of the problems and questions which arise, especially in this Western world in these peculiarly complicated times. What is to be our guiding and deciding principle in gathering together? It is to be Christ! We meet on that ground alone. Where God's end is most fully in view, and what provides most fully for its attainment - the fullness of Christ - decides where we ought to be, and no one ought to quarrel with that. It is because of a devotion to and jealousy for some "thing"; a "Mission," "Denomination," "Tradition," "Fellowship," "Movement," etc., that rivalries, and bad feelings spring up. All the talk about "sheep stealing" and "dividing the Lord's people," or a great deal of it, arises out of a concern for - not spiritual growth - but something here on the earth. How very much of this talk would be impossible if everyone concerned took the attitude that it does not matter what survives or ceases to exist so long as Christ is being increased in a spiritual way. This involves the necessity that all the Lord's people, and particularly those in "official" positions, and positions of influence, should be utterly and only devoted to the increase of Christ. Christ is not divided, therefore Christ is the ground of unity, not the things as mentioned above.Roger

Ron writes:“T Austin-Sparks had some wonderful insights into the church, many of which had their counterpart in a church.”Here is one of them. It is Reproduction by Divine Life in which he writes: “What is it that constitutes the Church? The Church is not constituted upon the Christian creed, nor upon a set of beliefs, nor by assent to certain doctrinal propositions. The Church is not constituted by asking people to join it - become members of it - adherents, but the Church is constituted by the transmission of the risen Life of the Lord. Reproduction is its law of increase.“Increase may be brought about in two ways. One is the way of imitation. You can turn out so many things as by a mold; that is, by making so many things on the same pattern and thus increasing, multiplying, by imitation. It hardly needs saying that such is not the New Testament way with regard to the growth of the Church. That is not the New Testament way of reproduction.“The other way is by conception; that is, the outgrowth of life from within, the form which life takes when it expresses itself - when it has its way. It is inward rather than outward. The difference between imitation and what is conceived is the difference between what is dead and what is alive. One is made, the other is born; and the constitution of the Church is the result of the activity and energy of a Life, the Lord’s own risen Life... being transmitted, passed on. Whatever you may develop, you will never get a development of the true Church unless the risen Life of Christ is operative and is there in sufficient measure to be transmitted by the Spirit.”http://austin-sparks.net/english/000431.htmlRoger

Hi, Very interesting reading.I'm from melbourne down under, and Jesus is reintroducing Himself to a few of us down here. Independant of anything comerically "Seccessful" Which we have quite a few. I think of the words of Isa in Chapter 1 Somthing to the effect of "Stop with the Praise and Worship already!!! I'm outside the Church(Rev 3) You've got to change your ways radically(Def: Repentance)Jesus said to Peter "On this foundation I will build my church." Which foundation, look back 1 verse, Reverlation! What is Church? I'm not really sure, because I can't put it into words, but church is defining itself to a whole bunch of us down here, and praise him it has nothing to do with culture, position, wealth, and everything to do with Reverlation and obedience.Jesus is the head of his church. But unless we have a "live" connection with the head...how shall we then live?I have found one web site to be very helpful/challenging. www.allathisfeet.com Some guys from the States who have been "walking out" the church there for sometime now.I'm excited...Jesus is doing somthing worldwide. Let's count the cost to be a part of it.Mattmatt@foilfx.com.au

The mysteries of the kingdom of God are given through the understanding of the word of God. This is the key that opens the doors of heaven here on earth. Listen to some of the words of Christ about the kingdom of heaven that exists on earth as a church.Matt. 16:19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”This Scripture speaks of Christ opening churches under the leadership of the Apostles.Matt. 21:43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.This Scripture speaks to Christ closing the door of the kingdom. Please note that who Jesus is speaking too. They had the keys to the kingdom also.Matt. 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.Please notice that the kingdom was open and now will be shut. Rev. 3:7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,“These things says He who is holy, He who is true, ‘He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:Do you see this precept of opening and closing manifested in these Scriptures?In ChristJeff

Jeffyou are off on a tangent hereThe mysteries of the kingdom of God are given through the understanding of the word of God. This is the key that opens the doors of heaven here on earth. Listen to some of the words of Christ about the kingdom of heaven that exists on earth as a church. If you look up Isaiah 22:22 you will discover that the 'key of David' is the equivalent of the royal treasurer. This opening has to do with Christ's provision for His church. IF you read onto to the next verse in Revelation you will see that Christ says quite clearly that the door is open.He is assuring this local church of his available supply for all their needs to be a church. In modern terms this is an 'open check (cheque)'.

Br. Ron wrote: This opening has to do with Christ's provision for His church. IF you read onto to the next verse in Revelation you will see that Christ says quite clearly that the door is open.He is assuring this local church of his available supply for all their needs to be a church. In modern terms this is an 'open check (cheque)'.Is not Christ the word of God? Is this not the treasure that opens the door? Again look to the parable of the sower, is not the word the power that trasforms? In ChristJeff

Br. Ron wrote:If you look up Isaiah 22:22 you will discover that the 'key of David' is the equivalent of the royal treasurer. This opening has to do with Christ's provision for His church.For the last three weeks I have been rereading Isaiah 22 to 24. I have also been rereading 2 Kings 17 to 20. For some reason this is where I have dwelt. This morning this is what I learned. As I have stated that the parable of the sower of the seed is key to understanding the mysteries of the kingdom so now I understand clearly that the key of David is the word of God.In 2 Kings 18:18 And when they had called to the king, Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, who was over the household, Shebna the scribe, and Joah the son of Asaph, the recorder, came out to them.This area of Scripture tells the story of the threats of destruction to Jerusalem by the hand of the King of Assyria. In it we hear of Eliakim, Shebna, and Joah who were the leaders of the "household" under King Hezekiah. King Hezekiah sends these men to Isaiah the prophet for word from God as to what will happen to Jerusalem. Scripture tells us that the Lord delivers Jerusalem His people from the threats of Assyria. During this time the "household" experiences the power of God. Not only does the angel of the Lord destroy the Assyrian army, but God also turns back time and heal King Hezekiah. Listen to the testimony of this time.2Kings 18:1 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea the son of Elah, king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz, king of Judah, began to reign. 2 He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah. 3 And he did what was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father David had done. 2Kings 18:4 He removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan. 5 He trusted in the LORD God of Israel, so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him. 6 For he held fast to the LORD; he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the LORD had commanded Moses. So God was working powerfully during this generation. Now I would like to focus on two leaders in particular concerning this generation, Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, who was over the household, Shebna the scribe. In Isaiah 22:Is. 22:15 Thus says the Lord GOD of hosts:\t“Go, proceed to this steward,\tTo Shebna, who is over the house, and say:16 \t“What have you here, and whom have you here,\tThat you have hewn a sepulcher here,\tAs he who hews himself a sepulcher on high,\tWho carves a tomb for himself in a rock? 17 \tIndeed, the LORD will throw you away violently,\tO mighty man,\tAnd will surely seize you. 18 \tHe will surely turn violently and toss you like a ball\tInto a large country;\tThere you shall die, and there your glorious chariots\tShall be the shame of your master’s house. 19 \tSo I will drive you out of your office,\tAnd from your position he will pull you down. In this section of Scripture Isaiah tells of God's judgement on the scribe Shebna. Please notice this: what responsibility does Shebna have in the 'household?" He is the one responsible for the word of God. Now listen to Isaiah's prophesy concerning Eliakim the son of Hilkiah. 20 \t“Then it shall be in that day,\tThat I will call My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah; 21 \tI will clothe him with your robe\tAnd strengthen him with your belt;\tI will commit your responsibility into his hand.\tHe shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem\tAnd to the house of Judah. 22 \tThe key of the house of David\tI will lay on his shoulder;\tSo he shall open, and no one shall shut;\tAnd he shall shut, and no one shall open. 23 \tI will fasten him as a peg in a secure place,\tAnd he will become a glorious throne to his father’s house. God has taken from Shebna the word of God and has given it to Eliakim. Again focus on these words of Scripture:21 \tI will clothe him with your robe\tAnd strengthen him with your belt;\tI will commit your responsibility into his hand.\tHe shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem\tAnd to the house of Judah. 22 \tThe key of the house of David\tI will lay on his shoulder;The responsibility is taken from Shebna and given to Eliakim. He is given the key of David. Now please meditate on the last part of this verse:So he shall open, and no one shall shut;\tAnd he shall shut, and no one shall open. These are the same words from Scripture that are found in RevelationsRev. 3:7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,“These things says He who is holy, He who is true, ‘He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: What I learned is this, within "a church" or "household" God opens and closes the understanding of His word to those He has appointed that responsiblity. If He closes the door of understanding the shepherd is blind and cannot feed His flock because the shepherd denys the Word. Likewise, God will entrust His word to others who would do His will. As I learned this I heard of many Scriptures which speak of this same precept of God. Look in Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Revelations...... In ChristJeff

rookieWhat I learned is this, within "a church" or "household" God opens and closes the understanding of His word to those He has appointed that responsiblity. If He closes the door of understanding the shepherd is blind and cannot feed His flock because the shepherd denys the Word.If this is the way you do your exegesis I am not surprised we always come to different conclusions.

Br Ron wrote:If this is the way you do your exegesis I am not surprised we always come to different conclusions.This comment do not address the point that I made. If you disagree with my position please use Scripture for that is the foundation on which the truth stands. Is the word of God the means by which we enter His kingdom? I have many verses the share how about you?In ChristJeff

Br. Ron wrote:If this is the way you do your exegesis I am not surprised we always come to different conclusions.Well then what does your method of exegesis give you as to the promise that God will give Eliakim the son of Hilkiah the key of the house of David? In ChristJeff

My family and I attended an ordination ceremony for my brother in Chirst this past Sunday. We attended the Metropolitan Zion AME Church down in South Central Los Angeles. We were the only white family in attendance. I write this because we visited "a church" in a different community than my family is accustom too. We felt "out of place." That is until the word of God began to be spoken in passion and truth. No matter where "a church" is, the word of God is the "key" that opens the door to Christ. Unity comes from hearing the word, and not sharing in the things of this world.In ChristJeff

In this section of Scripture Isaiah tells of God's judgement on the scribe Shebna. Please notice this: what responsibility does Shebna have in the 'household?" He is the one responsible for the word of God.Jeff, please forgive me for interrupting but I was wondering, where in that passage do you see that Shebna's responsibility was the word of God? Also, do you see Eliakim as a type of a church elder or as a type of Christ?In Christ,Ron

Thanks Neil and Matteveryone should watch this!!http://www.allathisfeet.com/unborrowedworship/unborrowedworship.swfCompletely agree.

Well then what does your method of exegesis give you as to the promise that God will give Eliakim the son of Hilkiah the key of the house of David?Jeff, I think at times you have 'irritated' me, and that is sin, so I confess it and ask your forgiveness, but mostly you worry me.Your determination to work backwards based on your conviction that the Old Testament has greater truth than the New Testament can only lead you into serious error. In all my years of fellowship and reading I have never met anyone who held your position on this. Scriptural revelation is progressive and the greater follows the lesser. Your insistance that the perfect had already come in the Old Testament blocks your route to the glories of the New Testament. Your writings have a distinctly 'rabbinic' flavour to me; but this is inevitable given your conviction that we can best progress by going backwards.As regards Hilkiah and Shebna...Well, Shebna, was the treasurer, not a preacher, or a priest, but treasurer. Isaiah 22:15 The suspicion, from the charge brought against him in verse 16, is that he had embezzled the funds to build himself a fancy tomb. Isaiah's prophetic word to him is that God will "drive thee from station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down". He is going to be sacked.In his place, Eliakim would wear the state robes of office. This is his place and station. Additionally, the key of the house of David, would be entrusted to him. I don't know that there was a literal key, but he is being given not just rank and respect but executive power. The whole resource of the kingdom is at his disposal; he will be able to open and close the royal treasury.Now take this picture forwards to the New Testament reference.And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (Rev 3:7-13 KJV)This is written to the poorest church of the seven. Each time Christ introduces Himself to one of these churches He does so in a way which draws their attention to those unique aspects of His character that will provide their salvation. In the case of Philadelphia, He knows that they have 'a little strength'; their resources are slender.He reveals Himself to this frail, resourceless, church as the Royal Treasurer. All heaven's resources are at His command. They need nothing but the right relationship with the Treasurer. Their well-being does not depend upon their own meagre resources; the Treasurer is their Saviour. He alone has the 'key of David'; the executive power to provide for all their needs. He alone can block or free the resources that they need, and He states plainly that he has set 'before them' an open door.The usual thought here is to say, so 'let's go in'. But that is a different picture of Temple not Treasury. Here it is open so that things can come out. This struggling congregation of saints was being told that all of heaven's resources are available to them through the Treasurer.You know my love for the Book, but this is not a reference to the Book, but to the fact that Paul expressed in different words... This is the Revelation's exact equivalent ofMy God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory, by Christ Jesus

I think at times you have 'irritated' me, and that is sin, so I confess it and ask your forgiveness, but mostly you worry me.Hi Bro. Ron,I was wondering about the sin of being 'irritated.' What meaning are you pouring into that word as I should need avoid that if indeed it is sin. I have felt 'irritated' before on many occasions, but I wonder if you could speak to that a bit.Thanks,-Robert

mmm? I suppose it is a member of the impatience family, a near identical twin of frustration. Frustration I have long learned was just me wanting to be God in a situation.Frustration is better known by his formal name of anger.

Frustration I have long learned was just me wanting to be God in a situation.Could anger come about also because of some injustice or the like? In other words, maybe we need a new thread for this, but how can we "Be ye angry and sin not?" God Bless,-Robert

Thankyou Neil and Matt also:Everytime I have a minute to spend time here, it seems I have something else to do. (That is work here at Ucla). The toil of work as God promised in the garden has commanded my time lately. I even tried to write this small thankyou and was interupted. So I really found a moment of peace by watching this video. In ChristJeff

Br. Ron (In the Light) wrote:Jeff, please forgive me for interrupting but I was wondering, where in that passage do you see that Shebna's responsibility was the word of God? Also, do you see Eliakim as a type of a church elder or as a type of Christ?2Kings 18:18 And when they had called to the king, Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, who was over the household, Shebna the scribe, and Joah the son of Asaph, the recorder, came out to them. According to this verse we are told that Shebna was a scribe. Now search the following Scripture and understand that God took what had been given to Shebna and now gives his responsiblity to Eliakim the son of Hilkiah. Is. 22:15 Thus says the Lord GOD of hosts:\t“Go, proceed to this steward,\tTo Shebna, who is over the house, and say:16 \t“What have you here, and whom have you here,\tThat you have hewn a sepulcher here,\tAs he who hews himself a sepulcher on high,\tWho carves a tomb for himself in a rock? 17 \tIndeed, the LORD will throw you away violently,\tO mighty man,\tAnd will surely seize you. 18 \tHe will surely turn violently and toss you like a ball\tInto a large country;\tThere you shall die, and there your glorious chariots\tShall be the shame of your master’s house. 19 \tSo I will drive you out of your office,\tAnd from your position he will pull you down. 20 \t“Then it shall be in that day,\tThat I will call My servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah; 21 \tI will clothe him with your robe\tAnd strengthen him with your belt;\tI will commit your responsibility into his hand.\tHe shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem\tAnd to the house of Judah. 22 \tThe key of the house of David\tI will lay on his shoulder;\tSo he shall open, and no one shall shut;\tAnd he shall shut, and no one shall open. 23 \tI will fasten him as a peg in a secure place,\tAnd he will become a glorious throne to his father’s house. Do you see the transfer of power according to the promise of God in this Scripture? This is the Scripture I am specifically addressing:21 \tI will clothe him with your robe\tAnd strengthen him with your belt;\tI will commit your responsibility into his hand.\tHe shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem\tAnd to the house of Judah. So I conclude that what God had given Shebna, He now transfers His promise to Eliakim. Now look to the specifics of the promise of God to Eliakim.He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem\tAnd to the house of Judah. 22 \tThe key of the house of David\tI will lay on his shoulder;\tSo he shall open, and no one shall shut;\tAnd he shall shut, and no one shall open. 23 \tI will fasten him as a peg in a secure place,\tAnd he will become a glorious throne to his father’s house. Is. 22:24 “They will hang on him all the glory of his father’s house, the offspring and the posterity, all vessels of small quantity, from the cups to all the pitchers. The transfer of God's glory to Eliakim is promised by God. Will He not complete His word. Now look to similar Scripture that speaks to God raising up men to be His representative among the people. Ezra 7:21 And I, even I, Artaxerxes the king, issue a decree to all the treasurers who are in the region beyond the River, that whatever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven, may require of you, let it be done diligently, Neh. 8:1 Now all the people gathered together as one man in the open square that was in front of the Water Gate; and they told Ezra the scribe to bring the Book of the Law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded Israel. Neh. 8:4 So Ezra the scribe stood on a platform of wood which they had made for the purpose; and beside him, at his right hand, stood Mattithiah, Shema, Anaiah, Urijah, Hilkiah, and Maaseiah; and at his left hand Pedaiah, Mishael, Malchijah, Hashum, Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam. 5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people, for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up. 6 And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God.Then all the people answered, “Amen, Amen!” while lifting up their hands. And they bowed their heads and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground. Neh. 8:7 Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, helped the people to understand the Law; and the people stood in their place. 8 So they read distinctly from the book, in the Law of God; and they gave the sense, and helped them to understand the reading. Neh. 8:9 And Nehemiah, who was the governor, Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, “This day is holy to the LORD your God; do not mourn nor weep.” For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the Law. Also in the NT Jesus speaks this way of the scribes of His time:Matt. 13:52 Then He said to them, “Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old.”Please notice that Jesus refers to a scribe being like a "householder." Remember that God promised that Eliakim would be a "father" of the "inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah."Listen to Paul speak of the scribes:1Cor. 1:20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? So as Ezra instructed those of his era, I believe Shebna and then Eliakim son of Hilkiah were chosen by God to declare Him to the people of their generation. In the next post I will discuss the similarity of Christ and Eliakim son of Hilkiah. Out of time.In ChristJeff

So you think that the ‘scribe’ of the early monarchy was the same as the 'scribe' of the New Testament period? The OT scribe in this sense was not a teacher but an accountant;When they saw that there was much money in the chest, the king's scribe and the high priest came up and tied it in bags and counted the money which was found in the house of the LORD. (2Ki 12:10 NASB) The word comes from someone who kept a record of events or money. It is the word translated ‘number’ in And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (Gen 15:5 ASV)saphar (707d); denom. vb. from H5612; to count, recount, relate: - assigned (1), count (17), counted (6), counts (2), declare (6), declared (2), elapse (1), measuring (1), number (3), numbered (5), proclaim (1), recount (1), recounted (3), relate (3), related (9), relating (2), speak (1), state (1), surely (1), taken (1), taken account (1), talk (1), tell (23), telling (1), told (15), utter (1).The New Testament ‘scribe’ had a completely different function. This is from Easton’s Bible Dictionary; ScribesAnciently held various important offices in the public affairs of the nation. The Hebrew word so rendered (sopher) is first used to designate the holder of some military office (Jdg_5:14; A.V., “pen of the writer;” R.V., “the marshal's staff;” marg., “the staff of the scribe”). The scribes acted as secretaries of state, whose business it was to prepare and issue decrees in the name of the king (2Sa_8:17; 2Sa_20:25; 1Ch_18:16; 1Ch_24:6; 1Ki_4:3; 2Ki_12:9-11; 18:18-37, etc.). They discharged various other important public duties as men of high authority and influence in the affairs of state.There was also a subordinate class of scribes, most of whom were Levites. They were engaged in various ways as writers. Such, for example, was Baruch, who “wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the Lord” (Jer_36:4, Jer_36:32).In later times, after the Captivity, when the nation lost its independence, the scribes turned their attention to the law, gaining for themselves distinction by their intimate acquaintance with its contents. On them devolved the duty of multiplying copies of the law and of teaching it to others (Ezr_7:6, Ezr_7:10-12; Neh_8:1, Neh_8:4, Neh_8:9, Neh_8:13). It is evident that in New Testament times the scribes belonged to the sect of the Pharisees, who supplemented the ancient written law by their traditions (Matt. 23), thereby obscuring it and rendering it of none effect. The titles “scribes” and “lawyers” (q.v.) are in the Gospels interchangeable (Mat_22:35; Mar_12:28; Luk_20:39, etc.). They were in the time of our Lord the public teachers of the people, and frequently came into collision with him. They afterwards showed themselves greatly hostile to the apostles (Act_4:5; Act_6:12).Some of the scribes, however, were men of a different spirit, and showed themselves friendly to the gospel and its preachers. Thus Gamaliel advised the Sanhedrin, when the apostles were before them charged with “teaching in this name,” to “refrain from these men and let them alone” (Act_5:34-39; compare Act_23:9).The Old Testament ‘scribe’ and the New Testament scribe had completely different functions. The kind of 'scribe' that the New Testament refers to is the kind that developed during the Babylonian Captivity (eg Ezra),some 500 years later than Eliakim. The church at Philadelphia was being pointed to the keeper of the king’s treasure, not a bible teacher.

Br. Ron wrote:Your determination to work backwards based on your conviction that the Old Testament has greater truth than the New Testament can only lead you into serious error.The OT does not have greater truth than the NT. The OT explains and amplifies the truth that already existed. The first time I thought of the OT in this way was when I contemplated the direction that Jesus gave His disciples:Matt. 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), Also half of the book of Revelation consists of OT Scripture. The things that have past will also come to bear again. Whether it is an "Antioch Aphanies" (SP) or the temple being destroyed in the 500s BC or 70 AD, what will be is also of the past. Listen to the words of David:Psa. 19:1 \tThe heavens declare the glory of God;\tAnd the firmament shows His handiwork. 2 \tDay unto day utters speech,\tAnd night unto night reveals knowledge. 3 \tThere is no speech nor language\tWhere their voice is not heard. 4 \tTheir line has gone out through all the earth,\tAnd their words to the end of the world.\tIn them He has set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 \tWhich is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,\tAnd rejoices like a strong man to run its race. 6 \tIts rising is from one end of heaven,\tAnd its circuit to the other end;\tAnd there is nothing hidden from its heat. 7 \tThe law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul;\tThe testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple; 8 \tThe statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;\tThe commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes; 9 \tThe fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever;\tThe judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 \tMore to be desired are they than gold,\tYea, than much fine gold;\tSweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11 \tMoreover by them Your servant is warned,\tAnd in keeping them there is great reward. 12 \tWho can understand his errors?\tCleanse me from secret faults.13 \tKeep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;\tLet them not have dominion over me.\tThen I shall be blameless,\tAnd I shall be innocent of great transgression. 14 \tLet the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart\tBe acceptable in Your sight,\tO LORD, my strength and my Redeemer. The word of God "lines" up as an arrow through the heavens, it is we who must find that line. The straight line reveals the mysteries of God through eternity.Let us reason together for as long as the Lord wills.God Bless you Ron.In ChristJeff

Br. Ron wrote: Your writings have a distinctly 'rabbinic' flavour to me; but this is inevitable given your conviction that we can best progress by going backwards.This statement was a blessing to me as I commuted home during the 2 hour drive yesterday evening. I began to think of the many time that my Savior, Rabboni entered the synagogues to teach from the word of God. It is said that He taught with authority and the people knew that He spoke the word of God. John 17:20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.This idea that Jesus prayed for is not just words but it is a Spiritual teaching. This precept of becoming one with Him is the evidence of our faith in Him. So as I see Christ reflected in the lives of all of those who have lived by faith, I too begin to reflect His grace in my life. Does He not say:John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.Listen again to the work of the Spirit, what is it that the Spirit give those who will hear? 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. If my theology reflects His Jewishness it is only because the Spirit declares it throughtout Scripture. Remember He came to earth as a Jew. He came to earth to save His own. He is the Root of Jesse. Does not Paul say: Romans 2 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. In ChristJeff

So as Ezra instructed those of his era, I believe Shebna and then Eliakim son of Hilkiah were chosen by God to declare Him to the people of their generation.I was under the impression that before the captivity, the word "scribe" referred to a secretary of the king. This office did not necessarily have the responsibility of the word of God. Here is a related clip from the M.G. Easton M.A., D.D., Illustrated Bible Dictionary, 1897.ScribesAnciently held various important offices in the public affairs of the nation. The Hebrew word so rendered (sopher) is first used to designate the holder of some military office (Jdg_5:14; A.V., “pen of the writer;” R.V., “the marshal's staff;” marg., “the staff of the scribe”). The scribes acted as secretaries of state, whose business it was to prepare and issue decrees in the name of the king (2Sa_8:17; 2Sa_20:25; 1Ch_18:16; 1Ch_24:6; 1Ki_4:3; 2Ki_12:9-11; 18:18-37, etc.). They discharged various other important public duties as men of high authority and influence in the affairs of state.There was also a subordinate class of scribes, most of whom were Levites. They were engaged in various ways as writers. Such, for example, was Baruch, who “wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the Lord” (Jer_36:4, Jer_36:32).In later times, after the Captivity, when the nation lost its independence, the scribes turned their attention to the law, gaining for themselves distinction by their intimate acquaintance with its contents. On them devolved the duty of multiplying copies of the law and of teaching it to others (Ezr_7:6, Ezr_7:10-12; Neh_8:1, Neh_8:4, Neh_8:9, Neh_8:13). It is evident that in New Testament times the scribes belonged to the sect of the Pharisees, who supplemented the ancient written law by their traditions (Matt. 23), thereby obscuring it and rendering it of none effect. The titles “scribes” and “lawyers” (q.v.) are in the Gospels interchangeable (Mat_22:35; Mar_12:28; Luk_20:39, etc.). They were in the time of our Lord the public teachers of the people, and frequently came into collision with him. They afterwards showed themselves greatly hostile to the apostles (Act_4:5; Act_6:12).Some of the scribes, however, were men of a different spirit, and showed themselves friendly to the gospel and its preachers. Thus Gamaliel advised the Sanhedrin, when the apostles were before them charged with “teaching in this name,” to “refrain from these men and let them alone” (Act_5:34-39; compare Act_23:9).edit: oops, I didn't realize until after I posted this that Philologos quoted from the same dictionary entry in a previous post, sorry.In Christ,Ron

edit: oops, I didn't realize until after I posted this that Philologos quoted from the same dictionary entry in a previous post, sorry.in the mouth of two witnesses?

Sorry for taking so long, but I am endeavouring to systematically go through your responses. Brother Ron wrote:Well, Shebna, was the treasurer, not a preacher, or a priest, but treasurer. Isaiah 22:15 The suspicion, from the charge brought against him in verse 16, is that he had embezzled the funds to build himself a fancy tomb. Isaiah's prophetic word to him is that God will "drive thee from station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down". He is going to be sacked.In his place, Eliakim would wear the state robes of office. This is his place and station. Additionally, the key of the house of David, would be entrusted to him. I don't know that there was a literal key, but he is being given not just rank and respect but executive power. The whole resource of the kingdom is at his disposal; he will be able to open and close the royal treasury.I disagree with your take on this event. It is quite a stretch to say that Shebna was caught stealing money from the treasury. I believe the idea of building a seplecher is the focus of the what is to be learned here and not the stealing of money to do it. Yet, I do not have an answer or idea as to the significance of the seplecher. However, again listen to what is taken from Shebna and given to Eliakim. God promises to enable Eliakim son of Hilkiah with a position that causes him to be a "father" to inhabitants of Jerusalem and also of Judah.21 \tI will clothe him with your robe\tAnd strengthen him with your belt;\tI will commit your responsibility into his hand.\tHe shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem\tAnd to the house of Judah. What does it mean to be a "father" of the inhabitants of Jerusalem? I do not see the correlation you are trying to make between the idea of the treasury and the key of David. Likewise you suggested the Scripture in Revelation 3:And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.Please notice that following the Scripture pretaining to the "Key of David", we have this thought introduced:"for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name."Please notice the Scripture, "hast kept my word..." To me this does not in any way speak of treasuries of what ever sort, but is speaks to the means by which we enter the "door." These two Scriptures speak to the means by which we can enter into His rest.Rom. 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): Rom. 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Deut. 30:14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. I believe that the word of God enables Eliakim to be a faithful shepherd to the flock that remains in Jerusalem and Judah. I believe the spiritual analogy that you are trying to imply does not exist. Again, what does it mean to be a "father" in Scripture?In ChristJeff

I believe the spiritual analogy that you are trying to imply does not exist. fine.

Br. Ron wrote:The Old Testament ‘scribe’ and the New Testament scribe had completely different functions. The kind of 'scribe' that the New Testament refers to is the kind that developed during the Babylonian Captivity (eg Ezra),some 500 years later than Eliakim. The church at Philadelphia was being pointed to the keeper of the king’s treasure, not a bible teacher.Who was responsible for actually writing the books of Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Isaiah, Ezra, Nehemiah, Ruth... etc?Remember that the word of God is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the men that wrote the word of God.In ChristJeff

"A church" that has Christ as it's head will know the word of God. Listen to Scripture for an example of what I am trying to explain.1Sam. 3:1 Now the boy Samuel ministered to the LORD before Eli. And the word of the LORD was rare in those days; there was no widespread revelation. I believe this particular statement might be aplicable to many "churches" of this generation. Now listen to what God gives to Samuel. 7 (Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, nor was the word of the LORD yet revealed to him.) How many churches have you been in where you do not hear His voice? 1Sam. 3:10 Now the LORD came and stood and called as at other times, “Samuel! Samuel!”And Samuel answered, “Speak, for Your servant hears.” This is the key by which the kingdom of God opens the doors to those who would hear. Listen to the power of the word of God in Samuel.1Sam. 3:19 So Samuel grew, and the LORD was with him and let none of his words fall to the ground. 20 And all Israel from Dan to Beersheba knew that Samuel had been established as a prophet of the LORD. 21 Then the LORD appeared again in Shiloh. For the LORD revealed Himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the LORD. Please see these words: "For the Lord revealed Himself to Samuel in Shiloh by the word of the Lord."Samuel functions as priest to the nation of Israel. Listen to his exhortations to the people.1Sam. 7:3 Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, “If you return to the LORD with all your hearts, then put away the foreign gods and the Ashtoreths from among you, and prepare your hearts for the LORD, and serve Him only; and He will deliver you from the hand of the Philistines.” Listen to the people crying out that Samuel might intercede for them:1Sam. 7:8 So the children of Israel said to Samuel, “Do not cease to cry out to the LORD our God for us, that He may save us from the hand of the Philistines.” 1Sam. 7:15 And Samuel judged Israel all the days of his life. Listen to Samuel's warning to those who disobey His voice:1Sam. 15:22 So Samuel said:\t“Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,\tAs in obeying the voice of the LORD?\tBehold, to obey is better than sacrifice,\tAnd to heed than the fat of rams. Do you see that the word of God opens and closes the door? Going back to Eliakim the son of Hilkiah. How does God establish him as a father over the inhabitants of Jerusalem and Judah?In ChristJeff

Br. Ron (In the Light) quoted from Easton's Illustrated Bible Dictionary:“pen of the writer;” I think this hits the nail on the head, doesn't it. The writer is the Holy Spirit and the pen is the man who is the tool of the Holy Spirit.n later times, after the Captivity, when the nation lost its independence, the scribes turned their attention to the law, gaining for themselves distinction by their intimate acquaintance with its contents. On them devolved the duty of multiplying copies of the law and of teaching it to others (Ezr_7:6, Ezr_7:10-12;This thought does not speak of God but of men. Ezra did not do this on his own like the other priests that were selected by men. He was selected by God. Listen to what the Scripture says about Ezra. Ezra 7:1 Now after these things, in the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra the son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah, 2 the son of Shallum, the son of Zadok, the son of Ahitub, 3 the son of Amariah, the son of Azariah, the son of Meraioth, 4 the son of Zerahiah, the son of Uzzi, the son of Bukki, 5 the son of Abishua, the son of Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the chief priest—In this section of Scripture we learn of the line of priests that Ezra came from. It was God who chose him through his fathers before him. In Scripture one will find many instances where the people chose and appointed the priest over them. Ezra rules because of God's promise to him. 6 this Ezra came up from Babylon; and he was a skilled scribe in the Law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given. Now we learn that it was God who made Ezra a skilled scribe. 10 For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the Law of the LORD, and to do it, and to teach statutes and ordinances in Israel. This is the result of God's workmanship in those He calls. For we know that no man can call this upon himself, it is God who opens and shuts. 25 And you, Ezra, according to your God-given wisdom, set magistrates and judges who may judge all the people who are in the region beyond the River, all such as know the laws of your God; and teach those who do not know them. Do you see source of Ezra's wisdom in this section of Scripture? Ezra 8:21 Then I proclaimed a fast there at the river of Ahava, that we might humble ourselves before our God, to seek from Him the right way for us and our little ones and all our possessions. 22 For I was ashamed to request of the king an escort of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy on the road, because we had spoken to the king, saying, “The hand of our God is upon all those for good who seek Him, but His power and His wrath are against all those who forsake Him.” 23 So we fasted and entreated our God for this, and He answered our prayer. Do you see in this Scripture where Ezra looks for directions? He has a relationship with his Lord. Do you see the evidence of what he hopes in? Does the promise of God to Ezra exist in the Law given on Mount Sinai or the covenant of circumcision? In ChristJeff

Listen to Scripture that speaks of the word of God and it's power.Psa. 68:11 \tThe Lord gave the word;\tGreat was the company of those who proclaimed it:Psa. 78:1 \tGive ear, O my people, to my law;\tIncline your ears to the words of my mouth. Psa. 89:34 \tMy covenant I will not break,\tNor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. Psa. 103:20 \tBless the LORD, you His angels,\tWho excel in strength, who do His word,\tHeeding the voice of His word. Psa. 105:8 \tHe remembers His covenant forever,\tThe word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, Psa. 107:20 \tHe sent His word and healed them,\tAnd delivered them from their destructions. Psa. 119:107 I am afflicted very much;\t\tRevive me, O LORD, according to Your word. Psa. 119:114 You are my hiding place and my shield;\t\tI hope in Your word. Psa. 119:116 Uphold me according to Your word, that I may live;\t\tAnd do not let me be ashamed of my hope. Psa. 119:123 My eyes fail from seeking Your salvation\t\tAnd Your righteous word. Psa. 119:130 The entrance of Your words gives light;\t\tIt gives understanding to the simple. Psa. 119:133 Direct my steps by Your word,\t\tAnd let no iniquity have dominion over me. Many read the written word but do not understand the grace that comes to those that hear. It is this grace that has existed to all generations. This grace opens or shuts the door. Man can do nothing without this grace. That is why Jesus hold the key of David for no one else has the power to open or shut the door. How many churches exit in the world today with the door shut. How many churches are filled with dead man bones. How many churches have become the synagogue of satan. In ChristJeff

In my short walk with the Lord, I have come across many in "a church" who focus on the teachings of Calvin and others of like mindedness. These people profess once saved always saved. They profess the teachings of dispensationalism, the age of grace vs the age of the law. Yet I can discern that there exists many inconsistencies in what one professes and what one wants to believe. Here is an example. Many preach that this is the age of grace and the church. They speak of the out pouring of the Holy Spirit. They speak of having Jesus. Yet when they are confronted with the reality of Scripture, when the Holy Spirit is not being poured out in there own church, when the outpouring is not in their town or their country they deny what Scriptures teach. If we are not dreaming dreams, if we are not seeing visions, if we are not hearing the "word of God," could it be that God has not given because we too choose to be disobedient? I sense many get upset with the notion that Jesus does have the right to close the door on "a church." I find it remarkable that a Calvin-like minded people find this thought repulsive. It is replusive to the carnally-minded. But who are you man to question God? Here is an example in Scripture of those who question God's righteousness. Is. 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim,\tWhose glorious beauty is a fading flower\tWhich is at the head of the verdant valleys,\tTo those who are overcome with wine! 2 \tBehold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one,\tLike a tempest of hail and a destroying storm,\tLike a flood of mighty waters overflowing,\tWho will bring them down to the earth with His hand. 3 \tThe crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim,\tWill be trampled underfoot; 4 \tAnd the glorious beauty is a fading flower\tWhich is at the head of the verdant valley,\tLike the first fruit before the summer,\tWhich an observer sees;\tHe eats it up while it is still in his hand....7 \tBut they also have erred through wine,\tAnd through intoxicating drink are out of the way;\tThe priest and the prophet have erred through intoxicating drink,\tThey are swallowed up by wine,\tThey are out of the way through intoxicating drink;\tThey err in vision, they stumble in judgment. 8 \tFor all tables are full of vomit and filth;\tNo place is clean...14 \tTherefore hear the word of the LORD, you scornful men,\tWho rule this people who are in Jerusalem, 15 \tBecause you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,\tAnd with Sheol we are in agreement.\tWhen the overflowing scourge passes through,\tIt will not come to us,\tFor we have made lies our refuge,\tAnd under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.” You see the teachers thougth they had a covenant with death, an agreement with Sheol, for they have made lies their rufuge and hidden under falsehood. Only by hearing the word of God and obeying does one come to know the grace of God that has been given to all generations. Only through faith can we enter into the door that leads to our Savior. Knowing the "Life," will create the hope for which you strive. Unless two be agreed, you cannot walk together. In Christjeff

I listened to this teaching this morning on the way in to work. Ravenhill speaks of what churches are missing in this generation. Please notice that he uses the life of Samson, an OT saint as an example for us today. What did he have that we don't have in this generation?https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=1012In ChristJeff

All I want is to meet Jesus there and worhip him in a church, and I want to worship as much outside as inside the church

Have you ever heard of a little book by a Brother Lawrence called " Practicing the Presence of God "? I would highly recommend it, I believe it available online free through www.e-sword.org , its not a ver big book but well worth the time and thought.

Rev 3:17 Because you say, “I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. Jesus says to "this church" "you do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked." What is wrong with this church? What are they missing? In ChristJeff

The reason I began this thread was to draw attention to many peripheral aspects of church life which easily obscure the real purpose of a local church. Some said immediately that the purpose was evangelism. Suppose you have 3 people on a desert island or in a prison cell. Their opportunities for evangelism would be extremely limited. Does this mean that such a church could not function. Now I am just making a point so don't tell me they could evangeliise the warders! The point is that a 'local church' could exist with evangelism. I am not saying that it should. Only that this must affect our definition of 'a church'.a 'local church' is "chez God" This is the prime sense too of ecclesia, a called out group. The 'ecclesia' of Israel' was not called out primarily to educate the gentiles but to be available to God in a unique way. It was symbolised by the Sinai Covenant which was inaugurated (in Ex 24) with a simple altar and 12 stones surrounding it. The people were 'God' people' available to him as they waited on the altar. The sacrifices offered at this time were not 'sin offerings' but those which speak of given-ness to God and fellowship; the burnt offering and the peace offering.This is part of the central purpose of a 'local church' it is a context in which the saints give themselves to God and to each other. From this everything else flows; without this all our projects and timetables are padding.

The people were 'God' people' available to him as they waited on the altar.I appreciate the whole re-focus of Philos' recent post but I really like the simplicity of this statement. This is distinctive from everything I have ever seen from the churches I have been to.I have often wondered...why do we evangelize people? So that they can in turn go and evangelize more people? That sounds more like the business plan of Amway then the heart of God. We have been saved for Him for His pleasure. So now I am curious. How can my church attend to God's pleasure?I am listening for what everyone might say next...Blessings!MC

This is part of the central purpose of a 'local church' it is a context in which the saints give themselves to God and to each other. From this everything else flows; without this all our projects and timetables are padding.This is a good point. I think in the Midwest we might substitute the word 'padding' for 'fillers.' There used to be a commercial about smoked sausage in which a new college grad came to the company to 'cut the cost' of the sausage by adding 'fillers'. The old man in the commercial said something I think is relevant here, he says, "Young man, you may know a lot about finances, but you don't know the first thing about smoked sausage."I have often wondered...why do we evangelize people? So that they can in turn go and evangelize more people? That sounds more like the business plan of Amway then the heart of God. We have been saved for Him for His pleasure. I would answer that we evangelize because God has called us to make disciples. The body will 'make increase' of itself when it is functioning properly. If it is not functioning properly we end up trying to win them over to 'attending church' services. Dead religion is just that and people will run from it. So the question comes to this; what is the measure of success? What is the evidence of the 'life of God' in the midst of a local assembly? What breathes life into the coming together of the Saints?

I have often wondered...why do we evangelize people? So that they can in turn go and evangelize more people?To keep my sloppy writing from becoming a major distraction from the excellent direction of this thread let me state I know we evangelize in obedience to Christ. My question was centered in another direction and certainly wasn't meant to question the Great Commission. Perhaps I shouldn't have posted the thought...Never mind me. I'll just be standing over here listening.... :-) MC

A church should be looking outward rather than inward if all the church was out on the streets it would do alot. In the bible the first churches were house churches we need churches in our living rooms and that is for me aswell.

In the bible the first churches were house churches we need churches in our living rooms and that is for me aswell. Yes, understanding all that went into the first century church is quite a study. The main thing I see that is lacking is not location or type of building, but the moving of the Holy Ghost. I often wonder if we would be willing to allow God to move as He did in the 1st century? This is the key to me. We can go into our homes, but our homes are not like their homes as our culture is radically different. I keep coming back to the same issue; will we or will we not allow God to be God in this generation as He was in the 1st Century? I have thought long and hard about revival. I believe when revival really hits- God will be God again. We need a perpetual consciousness of the presence of God. If we had that in our homes- all would be quite different. If our homes turn out to be as dead as dead church services- going to our homes has accomplished nothing. Oh that God would pour out His Spirit anywhere we meet!

Br. Ron wrote:The reason I began this thread was to draw attention to many peripheral aspects of church life which easily obscure the real purpose of a local church. I hear that those who have posted recently are in agreement with your redirection. The points that I am developing also pretain to what your statement above suggests. It is just coming from a different perspective. In just a general thought, all things that are of God flow through the Holy Spirit. The work of the Holy Spirit is to give us Christ. Whether it is evangelism, healing, prayer, doctrine, helps, sacrifice, it is all determined by Christ abiding in us who believe. The power of the gospel of Christ will overcome the world in those who hear and do the word. Any church that does not hear cannot obey. Any church that does not hear, cannot glorify God through Jesus Christ. Any church that does not hear cannot love. The supernatural work of God through Christ will cause our lives to be living fountains. We no longer have to work to be Christians because Christ who abides in us overcomes our ignorance and depravity. It is He who works in us to give us "The Eternal Life." A church is not perfect, just as we who believe are not perfect. Yet, how many are being transformed into Him in this life? How many are learning to love as He loves? Look around the church you attend. How many have the seed that has fallen on good ground? How many lives are being choked out by the cares for this world? How many have fallen away when trial or temptation has crossed their paths? How many has Satan stolen away the seed that was planted?In ChristJeff

The people were 'God's people' available to him as they waited on the altar.Exo 19:4-6 KJV Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. (5) Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (6) And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.I thought I would quote the original introduction to the Sinai Covenant to illustrate further my point. First, He brought them to Himself. Please note the direction that the prepositions give us.My point was that the orientation of a 'church' was not 'outwards' in evangelism, nor 'inwards' in the building up of the saints, but 'upwards' to God Himself. The 'upwards' orientation will inevitably result in the 'inwards' and 'outwards' action, but the order is important. We may see the same order illustrated here too; Mat 4:10 KJV Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Br Ron wrote:My point was that the orientation of a 'church' was not 'outwards' in evangelism, nor 'inwards' in the building up of the saints, but 'upwards' to God Himself. The 'upwards' orientation will inevitably result in the 'inwards' and 'outwards' action, but the order is important. We may see the same order illustrated here too; I agree with your statement. However, I continue to hear you teach new covenant principles and labeling them under the covenant of Mount Sinai. This Scripture you sight above speaks of grace and not the law. Nothing is made perfect by the flesh. In terms of "a church," you are refering to OT Scripture to identify what the dispensationalist teach could only be applied to congregations that existed only after Christ sent the promise at Pentecost. So why do you use OT Scripture?In ChristJeff

I listened to this sermon yesterday and this covers a very important insight into what is a "church." A. W. Tozer speaks very clearly about what we find in "a church."https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=303In ChristJeff

The church of God is a divine institution, conceived in the mind of God(Eph. 1), instituted by the Son of God (Matt.16:18),energized by the Spirit of God(1 Cor 12:13). Apostles and prophets, divinley commisioned and guided, laid its foundations (Eph. 2:20); inspiried writings became and remain its only standard and rule (II Tim.3:14- 7;ICor.14:37;IIPet.3:2,15,16;Rev.22:18,19). Its present purpose and service in this age, and its ultimate glory and service in future ages, have been settled and revealed by God.GH Lang The Churches of GodThis is a great thread, this subject has been my great passion for years. What Lang said in his opening paragraph of The Churches of God in relation to 'the Church' is also true of 'the churches'; insofar as a church is a local manifestation in space and time of the one Church. Often I have seen men try to gather up a few local congregations from different areas and try to bring them into some kind of harmony under the slogan of "we are all one body". Don't get me wrong, I have no objection to local congregations coming together for a purpose; for teaching, fellowship or what have you. I certainnly believe that they are all part of one body in the sense that they are part of the one Universal church (if I may use that non-scriptural phrase, to convey a scriptural concept). But they, as a group are not 'a body of Christ'. They as a group are not the temple of God. This is not true of a local assembly. A local assembly, gatherd under Christ and in his name is not a portion of the body nor is it part of the temple. A local assembly is a manifestation of Christ's body, it is a manifestation of the Temple of God. When the believers gather together as the church; Christ is not there partialy, and partialy someplace else. He is there in his fullness as head, as Lord, as the ground of gathering and as the Centre.Too often we view the church in a pragmatic way. It then becomes a vehicle to get the job done. "A boat to fish from" as some have said. With this in mind we will fashion its meetings and its ministries to whatever gets the best results. This is a shame.Never the less, Christ is building his church. You may see problems all around you in the way things are being done. The answer isn't to ignore the problems, nor is to try to go off and change everbody. It is to make yourself available to the Builder. To ask Him to show you his work, the building that he is carrying out.Blessings.

Br. taco wrote:It is to make yourself available to the Builder. To ask Him to show you his work, the building that he is carrying out.This is the only reason for a church to exist. Amen taco.In ChristJeff

This verse from an old hymn sums it up nicelyGod in heaven hath a treasure, riches none may count or tell;Hath a deep eternal pleasure, Christ, the Son, He loveth well.God hath here on earth a treasure, none but He its price may know—Deep, unfathomable pleasure, Christ revealed in saints below.One of my best loved hymns. The rest of the lyrics are here

Lang's book transformed my understanding of the nature of a local church over 40 years ago. A companion book is Lang's "Anthony Norris Groves" which is a biography mapping out the pattern of the assemblies amongst the brethren in earlier days. Our own assembly here in Reading UK, is very much along the lines of Lang's understandings.I share your love for the hymn too.

Lang's book transformed my understanding of the nature of a local church over 40 years ago. I would recomend that any who are interested in a greater understanding of the 'local church' read this book. It's not always easy to get, but there are copies out there. I have been told that a reprint is planned also.The book that started my on my journey of church discovery was Nee's "the Noraml Christian Church Life" (Concerning our Missions).I welcome a lot of what is going on in the 'house church movement' at present. I think that there is a lot of wrong emphasis and plenty I could complain about but I would prefer to comment on a few positive things that this particular 'movement' is contributing.1) the organic nature of the church. That the church is more organic than organisational.2)Learning together. Many in this movement are empahsisng the beauty of believers searching and learning together - "We have the mind of Christ", "Ye have an anointing". There is real power in corporate discovery.3)Open meetings.4)Leadership that is functional rather than positional. Flowing from life rather than from office.I am not advocating the 'House church Movement' here I am simply pointing out a few things that I find encouraging in some (and I haven't read that much) of the literature coming from these quarters. I am coming into this thread late, sorry if people have had enough of it already.

Another book that might interest you if you can get hold of it is;The Church and the churches: W E Vineand another...The Divine Plan of Missions: W E Vinethat's the man who did the expository dictionary; here's a little resume... (1873-1949). Greek scholar, educator, editor, pastor and author, educated at University College of Wales; BA & MA in "AncientClassics" from University of London, pastor at Manvers Hall Church in Bath for 40 years.Celebrated Christmas, believed in Hell and that Christ is God, that He died on a CROSS, it is proper to address Him in prayer, and that all believers partake in the Lord's Supper. Vine denied the concept of an early Christian "organization," and a "selective" resurrection. He wrote two volumes on the `End Times" and the parousia. Vine taught that parousia should not be translated at all and that it (parousia) will start with the rapture of the Church, (when believers meet Christ in the air) and it will end with the manifestation of Christ in glory. (Publisher's Forward of Vine's Expository, 1981 ed. and W.E. Vine, His Life and Ministry, Oliphants LTD, London, 1951)

what are God's expectations for a local church?1) My first response to this is derived from Revelation Chapter 2 with the church at Ephesus. It must needs be that the church be in right relationship with Christ, 'her' first love. It is the requirement that seems to lie at the lowest part of the foundation. Without it- the church is not qualified to be a church.

My first response to this is derived from Revelation Chapter 2 with the church at Ephesus. It must needs be that the church be in right relationship with Christ, 'her' first love.RobertIt was the first requirement in the Old Covenant Church too. “Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown. Israel was holiness unto the LORD, and the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.”(Jer. 2:1-3, KJVS)I find this passage very moving, always. In the midst of all their rebellion and failure, the thing that God 'remembered' was 'the kindness of their youth, and the love of their espousals'.

I find this passage very moving, always. In the midst of all their rebellion and failure, the thing that God 'remembered' was 'the kindness of their youth, and the love of their espousals'.I heard it said once by a man that had been through many things in a relationship, "After a while, you only remember the good times." An evangelist came to our meeting recently and gave a very telling analogy. He told of driving down the road and seeing a convertable in front of him with the top down and two people in the front seat sitting so close together that the two appeared as one. His wife remarked, "Look honey, remember the times when we used to be that close?" Yes, dear I do. And by the way, I havn't moved at all.

i always thought the church was your body, where the Holy Spirit resides, or is there another name for that?But physical church 'buildings' which i gatehr is what you're really asking about are for people of each and every talent to come together to form the wife of Christ or the church body, kinda like the perfect woman, :-P see proverbs 36, verse 10 onwards; and the construction of the temple in exodus where people of all trades and skills came to build the altar and then spend time with God. then as God works through you, you build on numbers and effectively increase the size of the 'church gathering' which seems to put out more love for God when everyone's there spirring each other on to love God more, or so it works that way in our church, perhaps im biased? ;-)lol so really a church is a representation of the woman of God's dreams...wow, what a romatic! :-P

arbustum wrote:i always thought the church was your body, where the Holy Spirit resides, or is there another name for that?your body is a temple not a church. It is also a house.But physical church 'buildings' which i gatehr is what you're really asking about are for people of each and every talent to come together to form the wife of Christ or the church body, kinda like the perfect woman, :-P see proverbs 36, verse 10 onwards; and the construction of the temple in exodus where people of all trades and skills came to build the altar and then spend time with God. No we are not taliking about buildings. Read some of the earlier postings.lol so really a church is a representation of the woman of God's dreams...wow, what a romatic! :-P If you read Prov 31 carefully you will discover it is a mother's wish list for a daughter in law. ;-) However, a church is not referred to as a bride, THE church is referred to as a bride. This thread is not about THE church but A church,

I haven't read all the posts here but I would say that a Church/Assembly/Congregation is a sanctified (separated) collection of people set aside for a particular purpose.

When we look at the example of I Corinthians we see a church that Paul was correcting a lot of errors. This lends me to believe that other churches were not abusing or in error in the same areas as Corinth. I see a clue in this passage as to whether or not a church is being 'a church'.Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you. But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. (I Corinthians 4)It seems that Paul is saying here, "I will know... the power." This links to whether or not the kingdom of God is present. If there is 'the power', the kingdom of God is nigh. As it is written:"But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." (Luke 11:20).and again..."And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you." (Luke 10:9, 11). 2) It seems to me that prerequesite #2 (in my mind) for a church to be 'a church' is that the finger of God is in the house. This appears to be God's affirmation of the legitimacy of the meeting. If the 'finger of God' is not present (also known as 'the power') then God is not present and at best we have 'a religious service' (i.e. worship, etc. in the absence of God).

Your body is the temple of the HOLY SPIRIT, or where the Holy Spirit resides. The CHURCH of its self is compiled of believers together in unity and yes, in love form the body.The perfect women, in Proverbs 31, A Wife of Noble Character WHO CAN FIND, she is far more precious then rubies.Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value.She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life.She selects wood and fax and works with eager hands.She is like a merchant ships, bringing her food from AFAR.She gets up while it is still dark; She provides food for her family and protions for her servant girls. :-)She considers a field and buys it; out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks.She sees that her trading is profitable, and her lamp does not go out at night.In her hand she holds the distaff and grasps the SPINDLE with her fingers.She opens her arms to the poor and extends her hands to the needy.When it snows, she has no fear for her household; for all of them are clothed in scarlet.She makes coverings for her bed; she is clothed in fine linen :-) and purple.Her husband is respected at the city gate where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.She makes linen garments and sells them and supplies the merchants with sashes.She is clothed with STRENGHT and DIGNITY; she can laugh at the days to come. She speaks with wisdom, and faithful instruction is on her tongue.She watches over the affairs of her household and does not ear the bread of ildeness.Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and praises her;Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all.Charm is deceptive, and beauty :-( is fletting; but a women who fears the Lord is to be praised.Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praises a the city gates (NIV).When I think of the altar being build, I think of NEHEMIAH, and of SOLOMON, I think of the Arch of the Covenant. (I may be wrong and in need of guidance/instruction)As the Lord works in you and equips you, he then gives you gifts, as in gifts of an EVANGELIST :-)to increase the size of the church gatering.Rev 19:7 -- Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride had made herself ready. FINE LINEN, bright and clean, was given her to wear.(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints).It is the body of Christ the "Church" A Church (Us) with all of our gifts, talents, skills, anotings, revelation, "love" towards one another, walking in forgivenss, in healing, praying and delivering one another, worshiping the Great I am, the Alpha and the Omega, the King of Kings and Lord of Lord ~together~ that makes us One with Him, and therefore we become the BRIDE/A Church. He is romantically in love with his BRIDE the believers/saints his church.

When I first posted on this topic I wanted to provoke thought as to what the real 'essence' of a church is. I think somewhere I used the phrase 'the irreducible minimum requirement'. It sounds a bit technical but I did it because 'a church' was God's method of world-wide evangelism. I don't want to tread on anyone's toes but the Acts of the Apostles is really about the establishing of 'churches'. It is not a manual for evangelistic agencies or missionary societies or bible colleges or even a Purpose Led something or other. It is the story of relationships.It begins with the introduction; Acts 1:1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Acts 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: Those sentences mark a thrilling transition; the gospels are the account of all that Jesus 'began' both to do and to teach. The implication is plain; what follows will be the account of what Jesus 'continues' to do and teach. It is customary for people to downplay doctrine by saying the title is 'the Acts' of the Apostles and not their teaching. This is a misnomer. It is men who have called it the Acts of the Apostles; Luke calls it 'The Doings and Teachings of Jesus; the sequel". Scattered throughout the 'Acts' we find local communities of converts which go under the label of 'churches'.Can I make a provocative observation? (well, I shall, anyway) Israel of old was called, in Greek which was the language of most Jews (surprisingly) the 'ekklesia of God'. 'ekklesia' was a word in current use in Greek city life as the 'elected council which operated as the representative agency of a Greek city-state', but Greek-speaking Jews used it in their own context. Israel was the 'congregation/assembly/ekklesia of God'. Israel was the nation 'called out' (ekklesia) and 'sanctified' (cut out) by God for a specific role and destiny. There was one corporate entity regarded as God's 'ekklesia'. In the Spreading Flame, FF Bruce makes reference to the word; ""ekklesia was used in the LXX to render the Hebrew word qahal, the congregation of Israel, the nation in its theocratic character, organized as a religious community. The choice of this term was a further indication of the early Christians' conviction that they were the legitimate successors of the true Israel, bound by God to Himself in covenant-relationship from the days when Israel first became a nation" The Spreading Flame. F.F.Bruce p.71The entity was to have had an organic and physical unity. In some ways this was symbolised in the seven-branched Lampstand. (Exodus 25:31-39) This was made from a talent of pure gold, beaten out into seven little platforms on which were placed seven oil lamps. It stood on a single base and its shape is familiar to most bible students. It's removal signified the total conquest of the people as we see in the relief on Titus' arch.Josephus provides an account of Titus's triumphal procession, which the Arch of Titus depicts and celebrates:  "The spoils in general were borne in promiscuous heaps; but conspicuous above all stood out those captured in the Temple at Jerusalem.  These consisted of a golden table, many talents in weight, and a lampstand, likewise made of gold, but constructed on a different pattern from those we use in ordinary life.  Affixed to a pedestal was a central shaft, from which there extended slender branches, arranged trident-fashion, a wrought lamp being attached to the extemity of each branch; of these there were seven, indicating the honor paid to the number among the Jews.  After these, and last of all the spoils, was carried a copy of the Jewish Law" (War 7.148-50). It is still a national symbol of Israel flanked by two olive branches in line with the prophecy of Zechariah 4:11-14.If, as Bruce says above, the choice of word is an "indication of the early Christians' conviction that they were the legitimate successors of the true Israel, bound by God to Himself in covenant-relationship from the days when Israel first became a nation", there is a very interesting use of the symbol of the lampstand or menorah in the Revelation. “Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.” (Rev. 1:12-13, NKJV) Notice, that here we do not have a physical unity of one lampstand with seven branches but seven separate lampstands each with its own area of influence (the pool of light) which no-doubt merged into a common light. The 'physical' unity has gone but the testimony is still united in the merging pools of light.In ancient Israel there was one Lambstand and the testimony stood or fell as its single base stood or fell. But in the New Covenant we have separate viable light sources, united by the Lord in the midst of them and pooling their light, but the difference is that if one of these lamps is extinguished, the remainder are untouched. Israel of old was The Church of Jehovah with one 'house', but the Church of Christ is One Church/House in its universal setting but separate manifestations in its local settings. This is why I asked my question; what is a church? What is the essence of a 'local manifestation of the the community of Christ?'

Notice, that here we do not have a physical unity of one lampstand with seven branches but seven separate lampstands each with its own area of influence (the pool of light) which no-doubt merged into a common light. The 'physical' unity has gone but the testimony is still united in the merging pools of light.I have not heard this before. Would this be 7 individual bowls fixed upon 7 individual posts or would this be 7 - 7 bowl and wick lampstands (49 light sources)? It is a neat observation either way.In ancient Israel there was one Lambstand and the testimony stood or fell as its single base stood or fell. But in the New Covenant we have separate viable light sources, united by the Lord in the midst of them and pooling their light, but the difference is that if one of these lamps is extinguished, the remainder are untouched. Israel of old was The Church of Jehovah with one 'house', but the Church of Christ is One Church/House in its universal setting but separate manifestations in its local settings. This is why I asked my question; what is a church? What is the essence of a 'local manifestation of the the community of Christ?'It is an easy answer when you word it this way- it is a lamp that shineth in a dark place.... From here we need to break down the source of that 'light'. We know it was fire, but not just any fire. We know it was a wick, but not just any wick. We know it was oil, but not just any oil. How does all this play out?

I have not heard this before. Would this be 7 individual bowls fixed upon 7 individual posts or would this be 7 - 7 bowl and wick lampstands (49 light sources)? It is a neat observation either way.There were seven lights. The KJV obscures things by its reference to candlesticks. These were not candlesticks but oil lamps placed upon a lampstand. Ex. 25:37 And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it. makes it clear that the 'lamps' were placed on the lampstand.

Hi Ron,Ex. 25:37 And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it.makes it clear that the 'lamps' were placed on the lampstand.Just to be clear on this would this mean that the candlesticks in revelation that our Lord "walks in the midst of" are 7 individual posts that are freestanding or in the form of a menorah?

Seven separate lamstands each standing on its own base. Individual posts.

Got it. Thanks.

Wow, this has been a great thread. Seriously, if there was a SI forum "Hall of Fame" I have no doubt this one would be in there. I didn't intend to read the whole thing but just got sucked in. I learned so much. Thanks.An evangelist came to our meeting recently and gave a very telling analogy. He told of driving down the road and seeing a convertable in front of him with the top down and two people in the front seat sitting so close together that the two appeared as one. His wife remarked, "Look honey, remember the times when we used to be that close?" Yes, dear I do. And by the way, I havn't moved at all.That is so good! I'm using that one for sure, if you don't mind.In a New Testament class in college we read "Paul's Idea of Community" by Robert Banks. I really enjoyed the book and I think it really helped open me up even more to some of the things being shared here. Have any of you read it? After reading this thread, I really want GH Lang's book on the churches of God. I think it was Taco that mentioned it's hard to find. Well, I think that's a big undrstatement. I've searched the web and it seems to be very rare. The only copy I've found for sure is $120.00 on www4.addall.com which searches lots of online resources. At this point I'm not willing to pay that much, but if I get desperate who knows...But I might have found another source. Anyway, if anyone has any tips on finding that book please PM me. I hope the original intent of this thread can be continued. I might try my hand at it later myself.

Now here is another thought to add to that. It was exclusively the High Priest's responsibility to care for those lamps. Ex. 30:7 And Aaron shall burn thereon sweet incense every morning: when he dresseth the lamps, he shall burn incense upon it. Ex. 30:8 And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations. Num. 8:2 Speak unto Aaron, and say unto him, When thou lightest the lamps, the seven lamps shall give light over against the candlestick. Num. 8:3 And Aaron did so; he lighted the lamps thereof over against the candlestick, as the LORD commanded Moses. Aaron was not allowed to delegate this responsibility to another; it was his, and his alone. In the Revelation, where do we find the Lord?Rev. 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. This is a High Priest moving in the midst of the Lampstands; in the next two chapters you will find Him trimming the lamps and in one instance threatening its removal. It is His Church: these are his prerogatives. Here's a comforting word...Is. 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

The High Priest was responsible for the lamps but it was the people of Israel who provided the oil: “Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense, And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always.” (Ex. 25:6; 27:20, KJVS)“Command the children of Israel, that they bring unto thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamps to burn continually. Without the vail of the testimony, in the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the LORD continually: it shall be a statute for ever in your generations. He shall order the lamps upon the pure candlestick before the LORD continually.” (Lev. 24:2-4, KJVS) This must imply that the people brought their personal contributions, 'beaten out' and placed it under the charge of Aaron. In the gathering of which I am part, this has been my pattern for several years. I read the scriptures and as I am drawn to certain passages or topics I beat out the oil. This produces what our UK shops now call 'virgin oil'; the oil from the first beating, the freshest and the best olive oil. 'beating' implies effort and I use all the resources available to me to gather my little store of oil. I remember the word of the Lord ;“Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.” Matt. 13:52, KJVS) I note the order here too. The 'new' precedes the 'old'; I find the same pattern. 'New' thoughts/revelations surface in the 'beating' and that becomes the key, but the 'new' seems to bring with it older treasures as God brings to mind other things that I have discovered on this topic.When the oil is collected, I take it to the meeting and wait to see what the High Priest is doing in the midst of the lampstands. Sometimes He does not use 'my' oil, but that is OK, nothing is wasted; there will be another time. As the meeting progresses I 'wait on the Lord' with my 'offering'; being sure to enter in to what God is doing and saying and not just waiting for my 'spot'. He has unmistakable ways of telling me if he requires my contribution. This is 'His' church, He lights the lamps, He trims the wicks, He fills the little reservoirs with the 'beaten oil'.This pattern of the gathered church requires that all those gathered respect each other, and are prepared to trust the leading of God's Spirit in each one. We don't always get it right. Sometimes someone comes with a contribution that they are 'determined' to give; this can make the meeting a little lumpy. As long as such contributions are not too long, most meetings can recover!Did you notice, btw, that the light from the lampstands shone within the inner Tabernacle itself. This was primarily 'light for the House'; the Light for the world is a something differernt.

Did you notice, btw, that the light from the lampstands shone within the inner Tabernacle itself. This was primarily 'light for the House'; the Light for the world is a something differernt.This post seems to parallel something I read in Abraham My Friend (El Shaddai section). In like fashion to how God produces 'milk' in us through processing the meat of the word through our souls- so also it seems that God provides oil for the candlsticks through the process of our personal devotions and relationship with Him. This is a marvelous thought! I can't help but think about that 'dead flies in the ointment' proverb. When the oil is collected, I take it to the meeting and wait to see what the High Priest is doing in the midst of the lampstands.This is vital to the success of a church meeting. Knowing what God is seeking to accomplish in the meeting by waiting on Him and not just pushing our agenda is a large part of what seperates the authentic gathering from the religious. Sometimes He does not use 'my' oil, but that is OK, nothing is wasted; there will be another time. As the meeting progresses I 'wait on the Lord' with my 'offering'; being sure to enter in to what God is doing and saying and not just waiting for my 'spot'I think it interesting that this whole process is considered as an 'offering'. What if everyone came to service ready to give their offering to God! What a service it would be. I have often reckoned a service to be like a 'pot luck' dinner. The only thing on the table is what individuals bring. Back to the original quote; so then where does the oil for the light of the world come from?

This discuccion is so wonderful that I wanted to bring it back, and not let it be buried.