GOSHEN — Sue Schrock has strong religious beliefs about what she puts into her body to keep herself healthy.
“My family and I take natural products for our well-being and health. It’s our way of life and God expects us to use products in a natural form,” Schrock said. “It’s the way we believe every day.”
More at:
http://goshennews.com/local/x2056578309/Goshen-nurses-lose-jobs-after-refusing-flu-vaccination
Its simple right! Just require the nurses to sign an agreement which allows the local authority to throw them into jail for five years if they themselves are become an infectious source and a patient dies because in their weakened state they cannot fight the flue virus. Its religion gone mad. Its a hospital right. They are not teachers or fire men or police officers. What a load of nonsense. Rights and religion gone mad!
/quote/Rights and religion gone mad!/end quote/
todays miracle drug is tomorrows nightmare.
What is going on is a spirtual and a culture war
Christians speak loudly against abortion and then they inject there children with vaccinationes that are created by the use of Human Fetal Diploid Cells derived from aborted fetus. WI-38, MRC-5
I realize that the flu shot is not created by this method but what a shame it is when Christians are the ones most hostile to religious freedom but I suppose that it has always been that way and always will be. The net is closing in on us, soon an injected chip will be mandated on all to buy or sell, the majority of christendom will be the first in line and the ones most loudly condeming all who refuse.
todays miracle drug is tomorrows nightmare.What is going on is a spirtual and a culture war proudpapa
Sometimes brother we have to simply apply a little common sense to our lives. Then after that a little more common sense. Then after that a little less religion and so on. Those who work on the land have to do the same. Do you follow the recommendations of a man who has successfully mastered a technique for preserving his crops or do you eat. There is a cultural issue you are right. In this instance it is the culture of rights. There is a spiritual issue as well. It has nothing to do with a vaccine or the body which is already dead in sin and is perishing as we speak it has to do with death outright. Which is exactly what happens to millions of people every year who's immune systems are weak or else dying and they get this virus. No doubt this nurse has the faith to share with those thousands of children who died of the flue last year in the USA that they all went to heaven. Or perhaps if we ourselves are really religious we might find the faith to encourage all those middle aged parents who lost their children's grandparents of flue that because they are old and "nice" they too went straight to heaven. Or perhaps we should just take the view that all death is just in the hands of God and so it is of no consequence at all. Where does common sense come in and so called religious freedom go out. If you read the article the phrase is really quiet clear.
“My family and I take natural products for our well-being and health. It’s our way of life and God expects us to use products in a natural form,” Schrock said. “It’s the way we believe every day.” Did you get that brother a direct quote. "its the way we believe every day". Since when did that which goes into the body have anything to do with "believing". Does God really expect His children to use products in their natural form? Where are we instructed in this?
You don't have to have a religious mindset to comprehend or have a concern about the use of synthetic drugs. Yet whilst the H1N1 flue jab is a synthetic it does not pose a risk to the recipient getting flue as a result of having the virus as the old cultured virus did. The only risk it poses is a mild allergic reaction to the preservative in the vaccination. The article talks about seven nurses in particular declining to submit the necessary paper work by the due date although eight nurses are referred to one nurse is said to have retracted. No one was lined up against their will and forcibly injected with a wonder drug. Nor were any aborted babies used in the manufacture of the flue jab.
Some of us have to live with the reality of medical ethics all the days of our lives it is no mere religious liberty. My son Daniel is brain damaged simply because a doctor drew a line in the sand in order to write a medical book on the treatment of hypo-glycemia. In His mercy the Lord gave us Daniel's name 1 week after he was conceived with such certainty that we knew him before he was born. This was God' mercy to us. But it did not prevent the doctor doing his thing. Do I blame God? Certainly not! Perhaps I should focus on the Doctor. If I did brother I would be consumed with anger and then I would destroy him.! Or do I just accept that as long as we live in this body of sin we will have tribulation and contention in this life. Religious liberty is a myth made in the USA.
Hi amrkelly,
I find a culture which includes myself that as Asa trust their health issues to the Physicians. I have seen miraculous healings but often find that it is just easer to take medication than to push into faith to the depth that it takes for miraculous healing to occur. this I say of my shame
amrkelly wrote /quote/It has nothing to do with a vaccine or the body which is already dead in sin and is perishing as we speak it has to do with death outright./quote/
and later /quote/ Since when did that which goes into the body have anything to do with "believing /quote/
1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Revelation 18:23
And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy (((merchants))) were the great men of the earth; for by thy (sorceries) were all nations deceived.
(sorceries) The greek word Pharmakeia from which we get our english word for pharmacy
There is a direct connection with our body to our soul and spirit this is obvious if I where to put alchol into my body it effects more than just my body, If I where to put LSD into my body it would effect more than just my body, it would definately effect the spirit and soul.
the merchants the global corporationes in these last days will decieve the nations by their Pharmakeia
amrkelly wrote /quote/ Where does common sense come in and so called religious freedom go out /quote/
common sense is what the bible calls sight it is that which naturaly leads us but we are called to walk by faith, often times it just seems easer to have faith in our common sense
From the artical we relieze that Sue Schrock and Joyce Gingerich, have been employees at IU Goshen Hospital for 40 years and 25 years. they where not mandated to take the shot before this time.
Ethel Hoover who would have been at the hospital for 22 years said that 'she had received a flu shot 21 years ago “I took it one time and I got sick. I never took it again and developed a strong personal conviction against it,”
Listen this is not an isolated incident, my own Mother whom is very educated and very pro mainstream medical and pro mainstream everything else took the flue shot several years ago, I warned her that she would probably get sick from it and she did. Call it allergic reaction or what ever you want, it was the worse flu that she had ever remember having had. I have talked with several, several people that have had the same experience. and after perfect healthy individuals experience that, they tend to develope a strong personal conviction against it,”
speaking of the H1N1 the 1976 swine flu vaccine did more harm by causing some to have the Guillain-Barré syndrome than what harm came from the swine flue its self.
even according to the CDC modern seasonal influenza vaccine may still be the cause of some Guillain-Barré syndrome cases
It is just different perspective amrkelly and difficult
for all of us as we look through a glass darkly but I thought I would offer some of my perspective, I can understand what you are saying and your position
What is really enlightening is to read the comments made by readers to this incident. (It may be on another website, like Yahoo where I first saw this news article.) One poster made this comment: if a person with the flu is admitted to the hospital right then and there is a source of contagion. This sick person will meet encounter many others in the course of his/her stay and potentially spread the virus. To target these nurses is unfair on different levels.
(Ethel Hoover, a veteran nurse of many years wore black on her last day of work as a symbol of mourning for what had transpired. This pic could be seen on Yahoo.)
Yes, I see how it will become harder and harder for medical professionals to work in their field and still uphold Biblical principles. Might have to work privately and eventually, secretly...[EDIT] OR become totally dependent upon the LORD for healing - something to think about.
If we simply equate “sorceries” to “pharmaceuticals” we will have missed the most pressing reality of the meaning of that word which is used most clearly in context in Galatians 5:20. Sorcery is a fruit of the flesh. And as you point out it is the link between the physical body and the soul which makes for the reality. Yet the physical reality has to do with the very thing which God Himself created; being a chemical factory of more complexity than any pharmacist is capable of understanding even to this very hour. The relationship between body chemistry and the cognisant soul is at the very heart of what sorcery means apart from anything we ingest to enhance that effect. As a matter of reality those who practise sorcery do not need to take “drugs” to do it and are capable of remaining healthy and well in the process. The spirit however does not have a part in what is called sorcery. For those who are sorcerers and unbelievers their spirits are dead, not only to God but to the man as well. The spirit is inaccessible and untouchable in this way. For those who are made alive to God then there is the likelihood that they will also know something of their spirits as well. It is when believers walk in their natural minds that they are still likely to practise a form of sorcery because they simply do not understand the reality of it.
The nurses in this article no doubt have their own personal reasons as to why they do not want to be vaccinated. But what has that to do with physical reality which extends beyond any understanding of the complexity of vaccines and the certain knowledge that the flu kills people who are vulnerable to it. More people died in the 18 months after the first world war of flu than died in the whole of the war itself by a great measure. Flu is biological war surpassing war itself. It is absolutely lethal for children and old people alike. These are nurses working in a hospital environment. One of these nurses worked in Oncology. Every single on of her patients in Oncology, is vulnerable to flu. All that is being asked of her is to take a flu jab in order to protect her patients from the possibility of her infecting them with the virus. Each of these nurses have taken their living from the hospital and have by their own admission benefitted greatly in life from it. They have had there children, come and gone from their employment to do so, and have in every way been well served and cared for themselves. As the article states.
Beyond this they were also given no less than three opportunities to make a case for exception on the grounds of religious conviction. Is there anything sinister in this? Perhaps there is if you accept the inevitability of the conflict which lies ahead. As I see it what lies ahead cannot be avoided and moreover the process by which to resist believers in the future is being learned now by these means. Daniel sought exemption from eating the kings food. He laid himself on the line and boasted that he would prosper more by a simple diet than by the complexity of eating the kings diet. He was given his chance and in it God sustained him and prospered him Do we believe in God’ sovereignty or not. So as I said if these nurses had been offered a contract of consequence in which they were required to accept five years in prison for every patient who died from flue and who came into contact with them, would that have been sufficient proof of faith or not? I rather think they would have seen it as absurd. It is equally absurd to claim that because the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit we cannot therefore take reasonable precautions to protect others whose care we have a responsibility for. When it came to idolatry Daniel made no such request for exception but went straight to his chamber to prepare for the inevitable. That is what we should doing. Preparing and not objecting.
One thing which is easily missed in all of this has to do with liberties which are exercised by the "patients" when they sue hospitals because they have been harmed by a member of staff. Just this morning I took my son to hospital and as always I am aware that hospitals are the most disease ridden places in Daniel's life. That is however unavoidable if he is to get his new boots to help him walk. So what can I do? It would be surprising in the extreme if a patient were ill and then were asked not to attend the hospital because they are ill. Somewhat self defeating I think. On the other hand nurses do have the power to make sensible decisions about the likely hood of them giving a vulnerable patient the flu. Not only this but has anyone seen the bill for sick days of hospital staff recently. Its your tax dollars. How is the hospital going to ensure the health of their staff if by nature their patients are full of disease. Daniel agreed that in the end if his claim did not prove to be true and full he would eat the kings food. He made no such promise with regard to idolatry. Well the king (hospital) wouldn't listen. What then? Where does idolatry lie? Is it in claiming our bodies are made perfect and so don't need medicating, or is it claiming our rights.
We must all admit that vaccinations have done a lot to prevent disease. Consider the small pox shot, the polio...
However, a lot of these vaccinations today given for flu are not all inclusive in their effectiveness. How can you explain it that I have not had one in many years and still do not get the flu even though I am exposed to it a lot? We had sixteen people here on Dec.29. Of all these only two never got sick and one was me.
As I study this incident at Goshen Hospital we read how the nurses involved gave this issue serious thought - it was not a sudden decision. (A friend of Ethel Hoover said there were 50 personal that objected to it but all caved in to pressure except for these few.) Nurses usually are quite dogmatic about what they believe and why, something that usually escapes the non-medical professional. They see a lot, observe and have no financial interest in the pharmaceutical industry.
God bless.
I have been taking a quality brand of vitamin D3 "that comes in a glass bottle" 5,000 iu a day, along with a simple multivitamin, everyday for 10 years and never had a cold, go figure!
Hi ginnyrose
ginnyrose wrote ///However, a lot of these vaccinations today given for flu are not all inclusive in their effectiveness///
This is a good point, My Wifes sister is a doctor with her own clinic, She said that some of her clients that had the flu shot are comming down with the flu, they have tested them and sure enough it is the same strand of flu that they had a shot for.
We as Christians are under the Law of the Spirit rather than the Law of the letter. Some may argue that their is no Law in the bible that says thou shalt not take an influenza shot but if we have a conviction that we should not, as what these women in this artical have, than we should follow that conviction no matter the cost no matter what the arguments in opposition to our position is.
I do not personaly believe that the flu shot is a big moral issue even though I do believe those vaccinations that use aborted baby fetus are a moral issue.
I think what we are seeing in our society is conditioning drills that are being used for breaking down our resistance to a global totalitarian rule.
those dear women.....i might have mentioned this. i've always taken a flu shot since the winter of 2006, because my job at that time, required me to have direct contact with many people during the flu season, and i thought it prudent to do this....and thanks be to God, during that time period, 2006-09, never any flu.
this last year, 2012, i took a flu shot again, however on New Years day, i took ill. my health is such, that even having a temperature, means i have to go the ER at once, because it could be something life threatening.
i spent the first 5 days of 2013 in the hospital, it seems i had influenza type "A", i guess this years flu shot didnt work. my temperature never got above 100.1, nor was it 'stomach flu'....but they kept me 5 days, and you all know, they dont keep you 5 days in the hospital, unless something's "wrong" with you.
i wrote that, because maybe thats why i have seemed out of sorts to you, my brothers and sisters. Bill, ProudPapa, i'm thinking about you two brothers.....like i said, if i had posted anything to anybody that did not seem loving or Christ-like, i do beg your forgiveness....and that includes you two men...contention, backbiting is not my 'food'.
Saints, i dont what it is, but "something" in the very atmosphere seems OFF...like the stillness before a very big storm, i pray i'm wrong. much love to all in Christ Jesus, neil
Hi HezWelling
No hard feelings here. You where probably right about not being the wisest thing to bring up the Civil War in the 2 amendment thread, I think my position was very misunderstood and since I am no better at articulating than what I am, you where right about thinking it should not have been brought up.
thanks for giving me grace brother...my name is neil....Hez Welling is a pen name....again, your grace to me, means a LOT...i should not have been getting that 'amped' up...sometimes i do, but Praise the Name of Jesus, He will bring me around to see my shortcomings and failures in fellowship...at least we can BOTH be transparent and authentic with one another via the Ministry of Christ and Him Crucified, and His Love.
That RIGHT THERE is the Blessed Testimony of Jesus....that we change the "cd" of how people just fuss and fight with one another, we dont let the enemy grab ahold of us....we belong to Jesus, and thats good, you are loved, neil
Question I have is, did the President and Vice President get a flu shot? This should tell you a lot.
Flu Vaccine Reaction Leaves Former Nurse a Quadriplegic
This is the heartbreaking story of a former professor of nursing at a Connecticut university. She and her daughter, Katie, talk about what happened to their lives after a Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) complication of a routine flu shot led to strokes and ended in complete paralysis for this once active, vibrant mother and grandmother.
I think things are different too. Yesterday I left the house at 5:45 am in a T shirt. I have been doing construction work for over 27 years I have never left the house like that in January. There is something different with the weather today. I heard last week that if you are 27 or younger you have never lived in a year with below average temperatures. I think if we would let all our decisions be guided by the touchstone of "Love your neighbor" we would develop clean renewable sources of energy that doesn't contribute to global warming or pollution.
James
I would just like to state that flu shots DO work. The evidence is clear and overwhelming that flu shots can prevent most common strains of influenza during each subsequent flu season.
While there can be issues associated with medicine, they are very rare and the alternative (not getting a flu shot) can have increase the odds of medical issues that far outweigh the rare possibility of a side effect.
Still, I would urge anyone with concerns to educate himself/herself by looking into the matter. There are quite a few scientific studies online that would demonstrate -- including mathematically -- the usefulness (and all potential risks) of such vaccines.
Question I have is, did the President and Vice President get a flu shot? This should tell you a lot. Mr BillPro
I believe they did Mr Bill Pro. I found the link but unfortunately the language associated with the shot of President Obama getting the jab is too offensive to post. Still the President at least did get the vaccine shot and its on line. Its not difficult to understand the concern which arrises from things that go wrong. But the benefit overall is overwhelmingly in favour of the vaccine. If we have a choice in the matter then I guess we should make an informed judgement ourselves.
Hi ccchhhrrriiisss
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///I would just like to state that flu shots DO work. The evidence is clear and overwhelming that flu shots can prevent most common strains of influenza during each subsequent flu season.///
the fact is they are only about 62% effective according to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Dr. Thomas Frieden
For me who has never had a flu shot and not even sure that I have ever had what would be classified as the acctual flu, I do not feel it is worth injecting mercury, aluminum and other poisions into my blood system for a 62% effectivness.
regardless of our position we should all agree on respecting each others convictiones and be opposed to anyone whom is opposed to that liberty of choice, That is the essence of the artical
Global seasonal influenza vaccines market to reach value of $3.8 billion by 2018 http://www.transworldnews.com/1195045/a70079/global-seasonal-influenza-vaccines-market-to-reach-value-of-3-point-8-billion-by-2018
I just wanted to clear something up, because "sometimes" folks read more into your posts than you originally meant. I have never in my life have had a flu shot, so I did not post to condemn or condone the shot, I could not possibly tell you anything about the shot. The route I have chosen my entire 61 years, is keep my immune system charged up with natural with herbal remedies.
A strong immune system means your body can fight back very well when it is under attack. Thousands of times a day your immune system helps combat all sorts of minor invasions, from bacteria, viruses, parasites and many other intruders.
Boosting the immune system is very beneficial and it is relatively easy to help the body to improve it. I make sure I laugh a "LOT" everyday, laughter has long been held as the "Best Medicine" and in fact, science has now found that every cell in the body has a receptor for the substances produced when we are happy. Every cell is therefore influenced by how we feel. Our first line of defence against any disease is therefore Happiness!
I take 5,000 iu of vitamin D3 "the best quality and most expensive one on earth" and a regular grocery store multivitamin, not even a cold in ten years. Whether you believe it or not, or think it is hocus-pocus, a person's attitude plays a big part in their health. I am a very,very positive person, studies seem to show that people who have a positive outlook on life tend to be healthier. There are many factors which can cause the immune system to deteriorate.
Some of them include poor diet, not enough sleep, not enough exercise, too much stress and many other factors.
"BUT" you can increase the strength of your immune system and there are certain herb combinations which can have a tremendous effect. I am not a doctor and I really can't tell you why I stay well all the time, but I contribute my wellness to God, and the way I live "being a cheerful person" diet and exercise, plenty sleep, and my herbal remedies. If a flu shot works for you, by all means you probably should get one, they might work for me, but I have never had a cold, so I could not possibly know.
the inactive ingredients in the flu vaccine are egg protein, formaldehyde, sodium deoxycholate and thimerosal
formaldehyde: Research studies of workers exposed to formaldehyde have suggested an association between formaldehyde exposure and several cancers, including nasopharyngeal cancer and leukemia
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/formaldehyde
thimerosal: The use of mercury in cosmetics is illegal in the United States and yet the flu vaccines that are directly injected in your bloodsteam still contain it.
Hi proudpapa,
I think that you misunderstand what a flu shot does. The flu shot targets various strains of influenza that are expected to be troublesome. They aren't absolutely effective because influenza mutates. In most cases, influenza shots are meant to prevent an epidemic or pandemic of influenza (such as the Spanish Influenza that affected more than 500 Million people in 1918). They are modified to eliminate a known strain outbreak.
Flu shots are greatly effective in preventing the particular strain of flu for which they have been designed. However, a very small number of people have "reactions" to vaccines and others will contract a mutated or alternate strain of the flu. However, influenza vaccines have been extremely effective in preventing deaths associated to major outbreaks.
The 62% that was cited in the article (and not necessarily claimed by Dr. Frieden as stated) is in regard to a study of the current strain of flu that is affecting many people in North America and the effectiveness of the most widely available vaccine distributed in America. However, the flu vaccine will be modified to target this current strain and distributed when available, just as was true a few years ago with an outbreak of the H1N1 flu strain.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm62e0111a1.htm?s_cid=mm62e0111a1_w
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/flu-season-2012-2013.htm
http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/features/top-13-flu-myths
So, your claim about danger from mercury, aluminum and other "poisons" (which are in less concentration than a pack of fish sticks) is offset by the accuracy of the flu shot itself. The reason that there has not been another worldwide flu pandemic similar to the 1918 outbreak is because of the widespread availability of targeted flu vaccinations. The same can be said of other vaccinations that you have no doubt had in your body (e.g. polio, tuberculosis, measles, chicken pox vaccinations, etc...).
I hope that this makes more sense. I agree with you in that a person's personal liberty should be respected in regard to such things. I would expect that the government should allow them to follow their consciences. However, there are some key medical positions where it could be a danger for certain non-vaccinated individuals to work.
Hi proudpapa,
Again, I think that it is important to truly perform research before warning individuals about some of the ingredients in vaccines. There are many myths and even conspiracy theories that are spread about such things. We want to be careful not to spread things that aren't true or those things that pollute the accuracy of the issues themselves.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/index.html
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/toxic-myths-about-vaccines/
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/COMMONMYTHSABOUTVACCINESDEBUNKED.aspx
Hi ccchhhrrriiisss
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Flu shots are greatly effective in preventing the particular strain of flu for which they have been designed.///
I agree, Flu shots are only effective in preventing the particular strain of flu for which they have been designed.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote //The 62% that was cited in the article (and not necessarily claimed by Dr. Frieden as stated) is in regard to a study of the current strain of flu that is affecting many people in North America and the effectiveness of the most widely available vaccine distributed in America//
The 62% effectiveness I got from a pro vaccine artical, it is disturbing that without any facts on your part you underminded what I posted by saying "not necessarily claimed by Dr. Frieden as stated" yes as claimed by Dr. Frieden as stated from CNN
(CNN) -- So you got a flu vaccine this season, and you've been reading about the flu epidemic. You might be wondering: Will the vaccine keep me healthy?
The answer: The vaccine isn't a guarantee that you'll be flu-free. In fact, it's about (((62% effective,))) said the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,((((( Dr. Thomas Frieden,))))) on Friday January 11, 2013
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/10/health/flu-vaccine-effectiveness/index.html
If anything The CDC is going to round the effetiveness of the flu shot up not down,
many years ago I researched Monsanto chemical company what I found is that there is a revolving door Monsanto and The FDA. The same reality is the case between the CDC and the Large pharmaceutical Corporations, the influenza vaccination is a multi billion dollar business. multi billion dollar business do wounders with marketing
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///So, your claim about danger from mercury, aluminum and other "poisons" (which are in less concentration than a pack of fish sticks)///
I have never heard of anyone coming down with the Guillain-Barre' syndrome from a pack of fish sticks but the swine influenza vaccine in 1976-1977 caused more harm than what the flue did in those years the CDC still admittes that current flu shots may still cause some cases of Guillain-Barre' syndrome.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote/// The reason that there has not been another worldwide flu pandemic similar to the 1918 outbreak is because of the widespread availability of targeted flu vaccinations.///
Do you think maybe hot water, soap and better nutrition may have any thing to do with it?? It is doubtful that the flue pandemic has been as off set as you say by flu shots when we take in the reality that those whom get a flu shot have never been the majority.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote///I hope that this makes more sense. I agree with you in that a person's personal liberty should be respected in regard to such things. I would expect that the government should allow them to follow their consciences. However, there are some key medical positions where it could be a danger for certain non-vaccinated individuals to work.///
this part is well said
Hi proud,
The 62% effectiveness I got from a pro vaccine artical it is disturbing that without any facts on your part you underminded what I posted by saying "not necessarily claimed by Dr. Frieden as stated" yes as claimed by Dr. Frieden as stated from CNN
(CNN) -- So you got a flu vaccine this season, and you've been reading about the flu epidemic. You might be wondering: Will the vaccine keep me healthy?
The answer: The vaccine isn't a guarantee that you'll be flu-free. In fact, it's about (((62% effective,))) said the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,((((( Dr. Thomas Frieden,))))) on Friday January 11, 2013
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/10/health/flu-vaccine-effectiveness/index.html
If anything The CDC is going to round the effetiveness of the flu shot up not down,
Again, I think that you misunderstand the purpose of a study like this itself or the purpose of the CDC. The CDC isn't paid to "cheerlead" flu shots. They aren't a marketing agency. They conduct studies not hoping for an outcome. This article simply cited a single statistical study about the effectiveness of this particular shot. The article also points out the conclusion from this analysis regarding which strains this particular flu vaccine is most effective against at an early point in the flu season.
many years ago I researched Monsanto chemical company what I found is that there is a revolving door Monsanto and The FDA. The same reality is the case between the CDC and the Large pharmaceutical Corporations, the influenza vaccination is a multi billion dollar business. multi billion dollar business do wounders with marketing
I do not feel that you have any authority or credibility in making such a claim. In fact, it reeks of pure conspiracy. It almost seems that you are almost making a claim that the CDC and FDA are in the "pocket" of pharmaceutical companies. There is nothing that you have cited that could substantiate such a claim! After working for a large biotech company, I can attest that federal oversight does NOT look favorably for the industry. Any apparent "tie" is the fact that they are forced to work with these companies in scrutinizing and analyzing claims or insuring adequate creation and distribution for medicines and vaccinations that could prevent the spread of influenza.
I have never heard of anyone coming down with the Guillain-Barre' syndrome from a pack of fish sticks but the swine influenza vaccine in 1976-1977 caused more harm than what the flue did in those years the CDC still admittes that current flu shots may still cause some cases of Guillain-Barre' syndrome.
Again, I fear that you are connecting dots incorrectly here. First of all, I didn't say that "fish sticks spread Guillain-Barre syndrome." I am simply saying that the old preservatives that were included in vaccines contained elements that have higher concentration in fish than in vaccines. As for any 1976 outbreak, technology has advanced in how active ingredients are preserved in vaccines. Since flu vaccines have come such a long way in the last 35 years, I suspect that the point is moot.
Do you think maybe hot water, soap and better nutrition may have any thing to do with it?? It is doubtful that the flue pandemic has been as off set as you say by flu shots when we take in the reality that those whom get a flu shot have never been the majority.
The point is not to "think" anything -- especially enough to make a public proclamation about it. It is much better to research credible evidence and then make a determination. To be clear: The Spanish Flu wasn't killed by "soap and water" or "better nutrition." While effective soaps can prevent the spread of the flu (although the flu is still largely contracted via airborne means), "nutrition" doesn't prevent the contraction. Many of the millions that died were not malnourished. Approximately one third of the Earth's population (500 Million) contracted the flu in 1918 with up to 10% of the cases dying -- and most of the dead were young adults.
As for flu pandemics: The 1918 flu pandemic wasn't the only mass outbreak. There were many other flu outbreaks that hit large numbers of people. For instance, there was a major Russian flu pandemic in 1889-1890. However, the availability of flu vaccinations has prevented these types of outbreaks. In the event of potentially deadly outbreaks, the advent of certain vaccines has helped localize or diminish the further spread of that particular strain of flu.
I suppose that what I am saying is that we should be careful about spreading theories or rumors about such things unless we have performed a great deal of research. This doesn't mean reviewing mere articles of journalism, but looking into medical journals, looking at medical/scientific evidence and understanding how vaccines work. This is especially important when we consider the importance of avoiding public claims that might be filled with suggestions of conspiracy between pharmaceuticals and oversight agencies like the CDC or FDA.
Hi ccchhhrrriiisss
It really does not matter to me how safe the CDC says that vaccines are, as I pointed out in my last post There is a revolving door between big pharmaceutical and the CDC.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Again, I think that it is important to truly perform research before warning individuals about some of the ingredients in vaccines. There are many myths and even conspiracy theories that are spread about such things. We want to be careful not to spread things that aren't true or those things that pollute the accuracy of the issues themselves.///
My warning included no conspiracy theory no inaccuracy no myth. I simply labled some of the ingredients and facts concerning those ingredients. Listen if people want to drink the kool-Aid that is fine with me, I am just giving facts of why I personaly am not going to drink the Kool-Aid
Listen just because we do not come to the same conclusion has nothing to do with lack of research, perhaps You are more researched on this subject than I am, I do not know but what I do know is that their are people more researched than both of us on the topic that hold both positiones on this topic.
Listin they told those vetnam soliders do not worry this herbacide that we are pouring all over you is harmless it might cause some skin irritation some small side effects but that is all. and than after they got home with all there problems it took them years of fighting before the truth of how harmful agent orange was would be admitted.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///I do not feel that you have any authority or credibility in making such a claim. In fact, it reeks of pure conspiracy. It almost seems that you are almost making a claim that the CDC and FDA are in the "pocket" of pharmaceutical companies. There is nothing that you have cited that could substantiate such a claim! After working for a large biotech company, I can attest that federal oversight does NOT look favorably for the industry. Any apparent "tie" is the fact that they are forced to work with these companies in scrutinizing and analyzing claims or insuring adequate creation and distribution for medicines and vaccinations that could prevent the spread of influenza. ///
the revolving door between U.S. government agencies, the U.S. Congress, and the pharmaceutical industry
This could go on and on till Jesus comes back, but the chances of changing someones mind about the flu shoot, is probably the same as winning the mega millions lotto. Both sides have a fair argument, but as Americans lose more and more trust in their Government, I am sure more and more folks are going to be skeptical about "ANYTHING" the Governments recommends. This is just the beginning hide and watch! :)
Director of CDC from 2002 to 2009 Dr. Julie Gerberding Named President of Merck Vaccines effective January 25, 2010.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHlUoQXknNMU
good word MrBillPro
Brother proudpapa,
You wrote:
It really does not matter to me how safe the CDC says that vaccines are, as I pointed out in my last post There is a revolving door between big pharmaceutical and the CDC.
...and, then...
My warning included no conspiracy theory no inaccuracy no myth.
What is this "revolving door" that you speak of? Yes, there may be individuals who have worked on both sides of the aisle (so to speak). However, it seems that you are suggesting that there is some sort of ulterior motives between oversight agencies and those companies that create vaccines. That is a very contentious statement that I contend to be a myth. How do I know? I have firsthand experience working with individuals who work in those agencies. Those who work in the health industry are bound by their own endeavor to work for good health as well as work in plain sight under the oversight of the government.
Listen if people want to drink the kool-Aid that is fine with me, I am just giving facts of why I personaly am not going to drink the Kool-Aid
I am the LAST person who would purposely drink or spread bad "Kool-Aid." However, I am simply cautioning you from spreading the claims that you have made without first having researched those claims and then citing the evidence upon which you have used to validate the statements that you make. Also, Kool-Aid is often much more easily identifiable than "bad water" from a bad well. An unsuspecting person can contract a parasite like giardia from clear and tasteless well or tap water if they aren't careful. Sometimes, it takes some research (and a microscope) to determine the presence of something dangerous or impure.
Listen just because we do not come to the same conclusion has nothing to do with lack of research, perhaps You are more researched on this subject than I am, I do not know but what I do know is that their are people more researched than both of us on the topic that hold both positiones on this topic.Listin they told those vetnam soliders do not worry this herbacide that we are pouring all over you is harmless it might cause some skin irritation some small side effects but that is all. and than after they got home with all there problems it took them years of fighting before the truth of how harmful agent orange was would be admitted.
Again: This second paragraph seems to indicate that you are insinuating that vaccines fall under the same cloud as lies that may (or may not) have been told about Agent Orange. This is called "conspiracy."
Now, I have stated from the get-go that there are undoubtedly side effects with vaccines. Those are called "calculated risks" because the risks are very low and are much more favorable when compared with the risk of NOT being vaccinated. Uneducated people in the early 20th Century fought the polio vaccine until polio numbers fell so drastically.
Unfortunately, the flu is comprised of multiple mutated strains that behave in the same similar way. So, multiple vaccinations are needed to combat the spread of the flu. However, the ability of the flu vaccine to combat and prohibit the contraction or spread of that particular strain is beyond dispute.
The difficulty with flu vaccinations comes with the size and scope of the Earth and the availability of preventive vaccinations prior to the strain becoming widespread. Yes, there is always concern with the "preservative" ingredients that go into vaccines and possible side effects. However, it is never as risky or dire as the "conspiracy theorists" claim. Moreover, the flu vaccinations often hold the same ingredients (outside of the active vaccine) that has largely eradicated polio in the Western world.
If you have issue with certain "ingredients" in vaccines, then I suggest that prior to spreading it on a Revival website, you should perform a great deal of research before making an announcement or fielding a suggestive purpose regarding that announcement.
It would be a dreadful thing to realize that we were spreading mis-truths, half-truths or incorrect insinuations about something that could potentially save the life of another human being. All that I am urging for is caution before we spread some of the things that we mention on a public board. They have a tendency to fuel speculation or, as I noted, "conspiracy." Alternative health practitioners often make negative claims through "selective" research and favorable claims regarding alternative solutions. However, they often cite statistical evidence in studies that make favorable claims for the things that they sell or peddle on websites or in stores and neglect the preponderance of clear, peer-reviewed (aka "peer-scrutinized") studies on such issues.
Also, many local research hospitals conduct some study into the production and research of vaccinations. I have visited some of them. You can even see the effectiveness (and listen to the purpose of such things) while looking through a microscope! It can be a highly educational experience! Also, PubMed offers a plethora of research into the viability of vaccines.
Remember: Such medical and pharmaceutical research isn't all favorable. It is typically conducted by groups, agencies, doctors and scientists who have no invested interest in the outcome other than to find mathematical effectiveness/ineffectiveness, side effects or other issues. Most medical research is more skeptical and highly scrutinized than we often give it credit. However, each word is not only scrutinized by fellow scientists and agencies, but by peers in the field as well.
Here is the link where I originally read this news article.
You might find the comments informative and entertaining: there are only 28,375 comments - should keep you occupied for a while. :-)
ginnyrose
Hi ccchhhrrriiisss
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Brother proudpapa///
well that is a nicer way of addressing me than your post before where you addressed me as ///Hi proud,/// I was not offended It can be expected with my choice of nick
ccchhhrrriiisss posted out of context my statement //My warning included no conspiracy theory no inaccuracy no myth.//
Listin ccchhhrrriiisss this statement was a direct reply to your statement that you wrote
///Again, I think that it is important to truly perform research before warning individuals about some of the ingredients in vaccines. There are many myths and even conspiracy theories that are spread about such things. We want to be careful not to spread things that aren't true or those things that pollute the accuracy of the issues themselves.///
that is the reason I posted what you wrote and than replied directly to what you wrote // My warning included no conspiracy theory no inaccuracy no myth. ((((I simply labled some of the ingredients and facts concerning those ingredients.))))//
it was a response directly involving what you called the 'warning' I gave of the ingredients and facts concerning those ingredients.
by taking one sentance of mine out of its context, it would be as though I was a lier but look back I was more than clear that I was specificaly speaking about some of the ingredients in Which I gave accurate unarguable non conspiracy facts about. The context was Clearly Speaking about the ingredients, If you can find anything that I wrote about the ingredients as being inaccurate or conspired let me know.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///What is this "revolving door" that you speak of? Yes, there may be individuals who have worked on both sides of the aisle (so to speak). However, it seems that you are suggesting that there is some sort of ulterior motives between oversight agencies and those companies that create vaccines. That is a very contentious statement that I contend to be a myth. How do I know? I have firsthand experience working with individuals who work in those agencies. Those who work in the health industry are bound by their own endeavor to work for good health as well as work in plain sight under the oversight of the government.///
It is not a ((may)) it is a fact there are individuals who have worked on both sides of the aisle. and not as small insignificants, for instance I posted That the CDC director from 2002 to 2009 is now as of January 25, 2010 president of Merck Vaccines
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHlUoQXknNMU
this is not an isolated incident.
By your opinion it would appear that you would not believe that a former director of the CDC would still have friends and ties within the CDC that would be a benifit for a position as a president of Merck Vaccines and a benifit for Merk altogather.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///I am the LAST person who would purposely drink or spread bad "Kool-Aid." However, I am simply cautioning you from spreading the claims that you have made without first having researched those claims and then citing the evidence upon which you have used to validate the statements that you make. Also, Kool-Aid is often much more easily identifiable than "bad water" from a bad well. An unsuspecting person can contract a parasite like giardia from clear and tasteless well or tap water if they aren't careful. Sometimes, it takes some research (and a microscope) to determine the presence of something dangerous or impure.///
I do not doubt your Sincerity but your bad water bad well senerio is precisely why I hold to the view that I do.
What Claimes have I made that are inacurate?? I have done nothing except give the reasons for why I believe How I do as far as the revolving door it is a fact rather or not it effects the outcome of things I personaly believe it probably does, you personaly believe that it does not. but regardless it exist.
Listen research and a microscope does not always conclude the truth, Their are many educated men that put their trust in research and a microscope that are completely assured that the earth is billiones of years old and that we are descendants of pond scum. Just because I do not have a doctorate degree in this subject does not mean that I am without warrent to express Why I believe the way that I do
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Again: This second paragraph seems to indicate that you are insinuating that vaccines fall under the same cloud as lies that may (or may not) have been told about Agent Orange. This is called "conspiracy."///
What I am insinuating can be directly understood by your bad water bad well analogy, You may call it a conspiracy if you want we all believe in what would be labled a conspiracy in one way or another, as I said earlier my no myth no conspiracy statement was directly about the ingredients. But relieze I gave facts that would insinuate, not insinuation as facts.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Now, I have stated from the get-go that there are undoubtedly side effects with vaccines. Those are called "calculated risks" because the risks are very low and are much more favorable when compared with the risk of NOT being vaccinated. Uneducated people in the early 20th Century fought the polio vaccine until polio numbers fell so drastically.///
The problem is these calculated risks can not and do not take into account all senerioes, For instance who can determine that the mercury and formaldehyde that is directly injected into your bloodstream may not 10 or 20 years down the road cause cancer, What I see alot of is Cancer, Poisons are a major cause of cancer. You say well there is such a small amout of these ingredients but listen there is enough poision in these vaccinationes that even the CDC agrees that they may be a cause of some Guillain Barre Syndrome cases. and something that needs to be taken into account also is that vaccines are directly injected into the blood stream which makes it far worse than ingesting these poisones as by which our bodies are designed to rid of them.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///If you have issue with certain "ingredients" in vaccines, then I suggest that prior to spreading it on a Revival website, you should perform a great deal of research before making an announcement or fielding a suggestive purpose regarding that announcement. ///
Listin ccchhhrrriiisss what I wrote about the "ingredients" in vaccines, was accurate information, was it for the purpose of insinuating that they may be unsafe because of the ingredients, why yes that is how I feel but what I gave was facts. What I posted Was facts of the ingredients that are within the flu vaccine and than facts about those ingredients.
We will not come to agreement on this topic it goes back to your bad water bad well analogy, It is whom we trust my trust is not in big corporations and government agencies of which you seem to believe has our best interest in mind, I feel that history and reality prove the both are as what you call bad wells
proudpapa,
I would encourage you to not bother with Chris' attempts to tear down all evidence convicting his love of the world, disagreeing, calling things uncertain, "conspiracies," or in need of more research, etc. For the last 7 years at SI he has been doing this more than anything else in the forums and it is definitely a thing he is very good at. He never follows his own advice though--never does the research and/or never has the guts to stand before the facts and to accept them as they are, but is content with twisting them in order to break others' valid stance and steadfastness in the truth. It's the same stumbling blocks over and over again that I have seen him place in many discussions here over the years. Sadly, this compromising spirit has been tolerated.
On the subject though, truly, as you have observed yourself, this generation is like Asa who sought the physicians and not the Lord in his sickness, and thus died, and not like Hezekiah, who, even though was sick unto death, and having been told of the prophet of the Lord that he would die, still "he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord..." and "beseeched" Him, and "wept sore". And the Lord heard him and healed him (2 Kings 20). But to a hardened and unbelieving people, it is certainly much easier and more than natural to seek the physicians and not the Lord in their sickness. Some even pray that the Lord uses the doctor, as if God needs the "doctors" and their pharmakeia in order to heal and as if He is not sovereign. God's people rely on God's provisions and not on the world's. How has is happened that Christians have treasured the promises of modern-day medicine more that the promises of God, thus putting their trust in the flesh--and in man, not in God? Even to the point that some would kneel before the enemies of God for deliverance (from whom?!)--and if they get what they want, they would then "magnify the Lord". Certainly, it is not the will of God that the people who have called upon His name copy-or are unaware of--the ways of the world.
Know that some people never get to agree with the truth, because they would rather believe according to their lusts and their itchy years, regardless of facts, arguments or proof. So don't be discouraged to seek that which is true, proving all things and keeping the good, for "he who seeks shall find", the Lord says.
God is not impressed with the world's "wisdom" and so called "knowledge"; He doesn't honor their credentials and will not bow down(!) before their diplomas--and neither should we. In fact, the Scripture says, "what is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God" (Luke 6:15). So I would keep away from anything--be it ways of doing things, or knowledge, or philosophy--that is too popular in the world.
NotMe,
Why do you feel the need to chase me around from time-to-time on SermonIndex with accusations like this? They reek of the very spiritual pride that you accuse others of having!
You get angry when I urge nothing more than "caution." It puzzles me why some people get angry at the thought of being "slow to speak" about things that they aren't entirely certain about. It is less about being "proven right" than encouraging believers to be pure in speech.
You see, the world watches us. They hear us when we speak. They read what we write. Sadly, much of the mockery that the world hurls against believers is often justified. Men who walk about boasting of their "ignorance" meander into subjects of which they try to engage in debates with learned men. We can't have it both ways. If you wish to discount "education" or "knowledge," then why do you insist on using it to validate some of the points that you try to make in certain divisive topics?
A clear conscience does not require that we ignore facts. Believers never have to fear those things. Now, there are certainly things that are incorrectly labeled as "facts." However, in a discussion about vaccinations, it is important to TELL THE TRUTH if we decide it necessary to say anything at all. And, by the way, "truth" in this instance is not based upon a few medical papers.
You have no right -- no basis -- to accuse me of "twisting" anything simply because you disagree with my urging "caution" before we make public proclamations. You did this in the past in regard to accusations uttered about Bible translations that you did not approve of. You did this in regard to certain political discourses that are uttered against the hearts of some men. Yet, I notice that you have not uttered those same discourses when they are uttered by men with whom you share their opinions about such topics.
Brother, you must repent of your vile attempt to "prove me wrong" over and over again. Time and time again, you neglect the statements and "play the man." You insinuate and insult me through many claims about how "worldly" a man that I am when I urge caution. You claim that I don't listen to my own advice and do research when, many times, I have shown it. You can point the finger at others and accuse them of longing to live "according to their lusts and their itchy ears" -- but you cannot say this about me.
You see, brother, what you fail to realize is that I long to please God more than I long to be "proven right." I long to please God more than anything in this life! I long to know Him...seek His face...and lay at His feet. You throw accusations against me without even knowing me! You do not see the times that I pray. You don't know what God has done for me. You don't know me at all -- despite your very incorrect attempts at "spiritual discernment." It hurts sometimes to read the things that you write. However, I am comforted by the fact that what you write is far from the truth and does not reflect the character as I have desired to have before the Lord.
Brother, if there is anyone who is unimpressed by my diplomas, education and "credentials," it is me. A degree can be no more than a title in a church represents. I seldom cite my own educational background here -- and never as something to "brag" about. To me, I count it as dung when compared to knowing Him. At the same time, I do not apologize for what I have learned either. Learned men can be used by God too.
So, Brother NotMe, before you go about (again) pointing the finger of "worldliness" at me, I invite you to get to know me. Give me a call if you like. Walk with me. Pray with me. Share with me. Break bread with me. However, I do ask that you refrain again from accusing me until you've done this. Yes, this is "urging caution." However, it is the caution to be pure in speech that reflects a heart that longs to be filled with the purity of seeking and knowing God.
Hi proudpapa,
I do agree that this can be a divisive topic. However, I simply wanted to say from the outset that there is much documented proof that vaccines are highly effective means of preventing the spread of certain strains of influenza. I also wanted to urge caution about making claims about such things that might not stand the preponderance of medical scrutiny.
If we are going to make accusations about dangers associated with vaccines using some of the things that you have mentioned, then can we at least also freely admit that there are many more medically established reasons as to why the CDC and FDA have approved influenza (and other) vaccines?
Please don't get me wrong: I am not "trusting" in the pharmaceutical manufacturers and government agencies. However, the medical and biological research behind their opinions in the case of vaccines is well-documented and passes scrutiny by the vast majority of doctors and scientists.
This will probably be my last post on the matter. However, I simply wanted to urge caution. It isn't to be "proven right." In fact, I would welcome being shown that I am wrong if the truth actually validated or warranted it. I am not defending the government, pharmaceuticals, doctors or scientists. I do not profit from them at all. I am simply concerned of these opinions that are uttered in the eyes of others. Yes, I am concerned about my own uttered opinions...constantly.
I do love you. It is not a phony love and the caution that I share is simply meant as an expression of the love that I have for the Body of Christ -- and even unbelievers -- that gather here. Contrary to the accusation that was uttered against me, I do not love this world. However, I do love God enough to desire absolute truthfulness whenever possible.
I do not think that there is anything wrong with acknowledging the possibility of being wrong or including disclaimers when discussing divisive, "fuzzy" or much-debated issues.
In this case, I acknowledged that there are concerns about vaccines and even cases of bad reactions and side effects. However, the overwhelming majority of studies show that side effects are rare and vaccines -- when targeted properly -- can be a noble medicinal means of diminishing viruses and diseases. Not only have they largely eradicated smallpox, polio, malaria, hookworm, rubella and dracunculiasis in the Western world, but they also have been documented to diminish the spread of influenza strains for which the vaccine has been targeted.
The Lord bless you, brother. I say this in truth and I hope that it is discerned to be from this heart that longs to see the face of God.
My personal opinion concerning this matter is that no one should force another to take any immunizations against their will. Some vaccinations work well, others not. Then there are those who react strongly and those individuals know that. To deny them their freedom to choose flies in face of what we Americans have known.
There are too many medical procedures being marketed like any other commercial item. They appeal to your desire for health in order to sell you this procedure. There is a lot of money involved in its research/manufacture so they need to regroup their investment.
Consider the mammogram. It used to touted as essential in early breast cancer detection. They are no longer as loud and vocal in this declaration as they used to be. I just had a friend who went through a false alarm because of this. And this is not at all uncommon. And who pays?
My dad, bless his heart, used to get the flu shot and ended up getting sick, still...used to aggravate mom to no end.
As I observe the medical and health industry becoming one motivated in large part by greed, I feel the need to dig in my heels and say "no". (Our former church overseer is a practicing physician. He used to say most doctors are in it for the money but he practices medicine because he wants to help people, and this he did.) I sense the LORD is making me aware of this reality in order to wean me from dependence on the medical profession and instead learn to rely on the LORD for health.
Two years ago I suffered badly from pain in my hips. Went to the doctor and was told I will need hip replacement sometime. I was in severe pain. One day I felt like I needed to be anointed as per James 5. So I was. My pain did not go away but the severity was lessened. In the meantime we prayed. This summer I felt the LORD telling me I should quit praying about it because he heard me. I quit praying and as a result there has been vast improvement. There is still some pain, but God is giving me the grace to endure and there is no hip replacement within sight for me. The LORD made me aware of practical things I could do to enhance my well-being - one, that my body is ageing and I need to respect it - I am no longer 45 YO even though my ambition is much younger!
As Obamacare becomes the norm, I believe Christians will be forced to look to the LORD for their health. Many cannot afford it and too many procedures have dubious value. (Our daughter's cancer was treated with radiation. I asked the nurses about its effectiveness and they told me it does not cure cancer! But the hospital had open house to showcase their technology to the public. I was severely troubled by this mindset - why bother with it when it promises so little? Who benefits? The patient didn't.)
Having said all this and with experiences we have had, I find myself having to totally rethink our dependence upon commercial medicine. Is this where God wants us? How is he being glorified? I strongly believe we are much too quick to run to doctors when we should instead be bringing it to the LORD. If this would become the norm, we may see the hand of the LORD move in ways unknown to us. (I do not understand scripture to speak against medicine, just man's dependence upon it. Am also aware a lot of illnesses are a result of sins of the mind, spirit, emotion.)
God bless.
i finally figured out how you speak your moniker....three of each letter. you wrote:
I would just like to state that flu shots DO work.
well, this year, my flu shot didnt work for me.
shrug...oh well. i spent five days in the hospital.
shrug, oh well. i DID have a nice time, not being sarcastic, the nurses, God bless them all, are very loving and did take good care of me, as did my beloved doctor. He's a good man.
you know Chris, and i write this in all frankness, you're a cypher to me, meaning i dont "get you". i'm a writer my brother. i KNOW the energy and work it takes to write long, well thought posts, and whats all so perplexing to me, are the subjects, that you choose, to write very long, well constructed posts.
i praise God that the Holy Spirit reveals things to me, God the Holy Ghost has NEVER let me down, and i thank Him, profusely when He not only REVEALS, but warns me.
and thats all i will write on this matter.....this time the flu shot didnt work....shrug, but you sure did spend a lot of energy defending Big Pharma, and if thats your calling, go in the strength you have. But remember, God is watching.
HezWelling....you sure did spend a lot of energy defending Big Pharma.
Wow! and I thought I was the only one that saw this, guess i was waiting for someone else to say this, I just did not want to become a casualty of the heated debate. Thanks for bringing this up Brother Neil, the time has begun and is now is in full mode, we all better know how to recognize the wolves in sheep's clothing. For the record I am not calling anyone a wolf, it was just a general statement.
edit: Had to do a correction on the wolves and sheep's thing, was only on my first cup of coffee. :)
Wow! and I thought I was the only one that saw this, guess i was waiting for someone else to say this, I just did not want to become a casualty of the heated debate. Thanks for bringing this up Brother Neil, the time has begun and is now is in full mode, we all better know how to recognize the wolves in sheep's clothing. For the record I am not calling anyone a wolf, it was just a general statement.edit: Had to do a correction on the wolves and sheep's thing, was only on my first cup of coffee. :) Mr Bill Pro
This is a cowardly statement brother. Do you truthfully believe that your comment could not have been taken any other way than as an insinuation of Chris. Perhaps you should read Chris’ own explanation as to why he posted into this article. It was on this precise basis. It was insinuation at the heart of some of the comments. In the end when that which insinuates is brought to account how will it explain itself? It is truly astonishing how we miss reality and press for our own ignorance and lack of insight.
mrbillpro...For the record I am not calling anyone a wolf, it was just a general statement.
amrkelly...Do you truthfully believe that your comment could not have been taken any other way than as an insinuation of Chris.
Yes I did, but only by folks that can't read, or likes to take your post/posts out of context. What does "for the record" mean in your world? and also for the record "I served 16 months in Vietnam in DaNang, you bet I am a coward.
Now "for the record" this thread is heading south, so God Bless you all, hope everyone gets it all worked out, adios amigos!
Brethern, as i sit here....and REALLY pray and think about what i wrote to Chris.......i dont mean ANYTHING as a "slam", or a "putdown"....NOTHING like that....its just....schma! hear me, i MUST be authentic and real in what i feel in my heart and my spirit and what the Holy Spirit says to me....
and Chris, i am not trying to put you "down"...i wrote a hundredth of what the Holy Spirit tells me, when i read your writings.....i'm just saying sir, God is watching.
on this internet, we all can be "anonymous" to a certain degree, in front of man, but with God?.....no, we are not anonymous.
i dont even like these threads, i want be to praying about how Jesus Christ is going to get me the lumber and building supplies to make a simple humble house of prayer in the front pasture, as He has TOLD me to do.
i need to be burning off ANYTHING in my soul, in my daily walk that is EVEN QUESTIONABLE to Jesus, questionable to God, i am the worst of the worst....you have no idea!!!
But, one thing i got going for me, actually Two....i fear God, and i know His Son, Jesus Christ.
thats it. as far as chewing over all the junk of the spirit of babylon...it makes me sick...all of these entities, whether they "big pharma".....or "big oil", or "big banking", or "big weapons"....all they are, in the final analysis, are 'temples to the golden calf'....and its twin, 'the whore of babylon', which contains the 'spirit of babylon', all of which are most decidely ANTI-christ.
none of this, has anything to do with Chris, nor am i "anti-business", anti-govt, rebellious, etc...i just had to say what my heart led me to say.
i did not write what i did to stir up trouble.
dear brother Bill, i didnt know you did 16 months in DaNang....God bless you and may He remove all memories of this time OUT of your soul.
Brother Bill, Brother AMRKelly, and Brother Chris, i REALLY didnt mean to start a fight...the fault lies with me, i shouldnt even post on matters like this, maybe i "fast" from such......thats the answer, God love you men, peace unto you all, neil
It's ok Neil, I said goodbye, but I just wanted to come back to say, Neil, none is perfect! and also, I Love what Roy quoted here. "The first step to being deceived is to believe you are so close in your walking to God that you cannot be deceived." - Roy Daniel
God Bless Brother Neil, trust me I know were your coming from, it's deeper than most can see, but brother Bill can see, you remind me of me, a broken vessel, being repaired by God everyday.
Hi Neil,
You wrote quite a bit, so I will do my best to answer the things that you said.
well, this year, my flu shot didnt work for me.shrug...oh well. i spent five days in the hospital.
I did not say that the flu shot works for everyone. Please go back and read what I repeated several times. Here are some of the things that I said in this thread:
“The evidence is clear and overwhelming that flu shots can prevent MOST COMMON STRAINS of influenza during each subsequent flu season.”“While THERE CAN BE ISSUES with medicine, they are very rare and the alternative (not getting a flu shot) can have INCREASED THE ODDS of medical issues that far outweigh the rare possibility of a side effect.”
“The flu shot targets VARIOUS STRAINS of influenza that are expected to be troublesome. They AREN’T ABSOLUTELY EFFECTIVE because influenza mutates.”
“However, a very small number of people have "reactions" to vaccines and OTHERS WILL CONTRACT A MUTATED OR ALTERNATE STRAIN OF THE FLU.”
“The 62% that was cited in the article is in regard to a study of the current strain of flu that is affecting many people in North America and the effectiveness of the most widely available vaccine distributed in America. However, the flu vaccine will be modified to target this current strain and distributed when available, just as was true a few years ago with an outbreak of the H1N1 flu strain.”
“The article also points out the conclusion from this analysis regarding which strains this particular flu vaccine is MOST EFFECTIVE against at an early point in the flu season.”
“Unfortunately, the flu is comprised of multiple mutated strains that behave in the same similar way. So, multiple vaccinations are needed to combat the spread of the flu.”
“In this case, I acknowledged that there are concerns about vaccines and even cases of bad reactions and side effects.”
I thought that I made an adequate attempt at explaining how a flu shot works – pointing out that it is NOT a “cure all” -- and how it targets certain strains of influenza. I also made it clear that there ARE documented and calculated risks side effects, but that the side effects are very rare and considered diminished to the risk of contracting the strain of flu for which the shot is designed to combat.
you know Chris, and i write this in all frankness, you're a cypher to me, meaning i dont "get you". i'm a writer my brother. i KNOW the energy and work it takes to write long, well thought posts, and whats all so perplexing to me, are the subjects, that you choose, to write very long, well constructed posts.
Neil, I should be clear that I do not spend a long amount of time writing posts as some have suggested. Perhaps it is my typing ability and comfort with typing (due to much experience writing in college, grad school, publications and work), but I am a fast typist. As for the “subjects:” I suppose that I have wrote in many, many topics on SermonIndex over the years that are largely ignored. I also suppose that the “memorable” subjects would be those that are debated on SermonIndex – from Bible translations to eschatology to current events in Washington – are the ones that “stand out.” However, I have written lengthy posts on other issues. Yet, since there is little disagreement, they may not stand out nearly as much.
Also, I would like to say that most of the things are not just “thought out.” Some of the things have been from personal experiences that I have had. And, most importantly (but, sadly, not always), I have endeavored to pray over the things that I post. I cannot count the times that I wrote a long or “well-thought” post and then prayerfully decided NOT to post it. For instance, I was going to participate in the gun debate thread, but decided against it. Sometimes, I sit on the things that I post. Instead of posting something that I wrote, I have a folder on my computer where I will often store those things. Most of the time, those things are never posted.
I will also say that there are times that I greatly regretted posting on a matter that becomes hotly debated by various believers on SermonIndex. It was in those times that I probably should have waited more intently for the direction that God did (or did not) want me to go with what I wrote.
i praise God that the Holy Spirit reveals things to me, God the Holy Ghost has NEVER let me down, and i thank Him, profusely when He not only REVEALS, but warns me.
I agree. However, in these earthly shells, even those most intent on hearing the Lord are still confined behind a “glass darkly.” There have been times when the thoughts that I was certain of just that weren’t quite so accurate. And, of course, I think that many of us have “blamed God” for our thoughts, prejudices, notions, revelations and even “warnings” only to find that they were construed in our earthly hearts and ears. If you look back at most of the divisive issues on SermonIndex, you will find men striving for what they think that God revealed to them. Yet, their words reflect conflicting ideas and even resentment and hostility (at times) after being publicly ignored or rejected.
Thankfully, there are times in which I feel that I have received a “sure word” from the Lord. These have been supernatural experiences in which something that I received from the Lord. These have been moments in which God spoke to me (or warned me) in a way that was not a thought or mere impression. Most of the times, these things are “verified” as they come to pass exactly (and with specificity) as I had received from the Lord.
However, most of my thoughts are my own (with the mind of Christ that I strive for). In this case, I did not receive “supernatural revelation” from the Lord. This undoubtedly came from “I, Chris” -- even though I wrote from a perspective utilizing personal knowledge and experiences. It should never be confused with a “thus saith the Lord.”
and thats all i will write on this matter.....this time the flu shot didnt work....shrug, but you sure did spend a lot of energy defending Big Pharma, and if thats your calling, go in the strength you have. But remember, God is watching.
Brother, I do know that God is watching. We will all give an account for this. However, please explain to me what you mean with this accusation that I spent “a lot of energy defending Big Pharma.” Where? Can you quote all of the times in which I defended ANY company or the medicinal industry itself?
Rather, I thought that the intent of my original post (and the underlying purpose of my subsequent posts) was clear: I was urging CAUTION when others were speaking about vaccines. If we are going to make systematic claims about vaccines, then we should be very careful with what we say and only do so after much research (and, if possible, citing it). After all, if we make such a claim, the burden of proof lay with us and not the person questioning it. While I do not believe that I was “defending Big Pharma,” I could also ask about those who spent much energy “attacking Big Pharma” by speaking about “revolving doors” and insinuating that the industry itself and flu vaccines are motivated by underhanded motives. Perhaps I read this the wrong way, but this is how it seemed to me…which motivated my call for “caution.”
Brethern, as i sit here....and REALLY pray and think about what i wrote to Chris.......i dont mean ANYTHING as a "slam", or a "putdown"....NOTHING like that....its just....schma! hear me, i MUST be authentic and real in what i feel in my heart and my spirit and what the Holy Spirit says to me....and Chris, i am not trying to put you "down"...i wrote a hundredth of what the Holy Spirit tells me, when i read your writings.....i'm just saying sir, God is watching.
on this internet, we all can be "anonymous" to a certain degree, in front of man, but with God?.....no, we are not anonymous.
Again, I totally agree that God is watching. He watches us when we write and when we are alone. Yes, we will all give an account to God for what we say in a public forum, in private and even with our hearts which no one but God sees or hears. I was listening to a message by David Wilkerson this week, Holy Ground, that spoke to this very thing!
In a message to youth and young Christian workers, Brother Wilkerson pointed out the great potential for each one of us. There is potential to be a vessel used by God…or a vessel that can actually work against what God desires. We can lead people to Him…or away from Him by our actions, the things that we say and the manner by which we approach others. Wilkerson was lamenting the potentially devastating effect that a fleshly attitude or decision can have on those who might see him or hold him in esteem.
I think that most of us are keenly aware that God is watching. Most of us are also aware that people of Church is watching and reading (and some are ready to pounce!). However, I am also aware that the people in this world are watching too. I have spoken to many unbelievers who are turned off to Christ because of those who claim to be followers of Christ.
I spoke to a man once who startled me with a joke about Christians. He said, “What’s the difference between Christians and buzzards? Buzzards wait until you are dead before they peck and rip you apart. Christians will do it while you’re still alive.” It was a sad referendum of one man’s experience with believers. Even more sadly, I have felt that way at times with the words of others.
I know what it is like to have believers almost figuratively dance over me pointing out failures or perceived failures or doctrinal disagreements in an effort to “expose” how “worldly” they “discerned” that I am. I have also read posts by well-meaning people that insinuate that those with whom we disagree are "wolves" in sheep's clothing. It hurts. It hurts deeply when brethren use loose language like this. Such hurt is only diminished when I spend time in my prayer closet at the feet of the One who was rejected and nailed to the Cross.
i dont even like these threads, i want be to praying about how Jesus Christ is going to get me the lumber and building supplies to make a simple humble house of prayer in the front pasture, as He has TOLD me to do.i need to be burning off ANYTHING in my soul, in my daily walk that is EVEN QUESTIONABLE to Jesus, questionable to God, i am the worst of the worst....you have no idea!!!
But, one thing i got going for me, actually Two....i fear God, and i know His Son, Jesus Christ.
Although my wife and I aren't in a position to build a house, I can only say “ditto” brother.
thats it. as far as chewing over all the junk of the spirit of babylon...it makes me sick...all of these entities, whether they "big pharma".....or "big oil", or "big banking", or "big weapons"....all they are, in the final analysis, are 'temples to the golden calf'....and its twin, 'the whore of babylon', which contains the 'spirit of babylon', all of which are most decidely ANTI-christ.none of this, has anything to do with Chris, nor am i "anti-business", anti-govt, rebellious, etc...i just had to say what my heart led me to say.
This world is not my home. Over the years on SermonIndex, I have been criticized for earning an education. However, if the things that I have learned via formal education have taught me anything, it is that this world is NOT MY HOME! Like you, I long for the day in which I can see the face of God! I long to literally embrace and be embraced by God! I grow homesick to be with our Lord with each passing day.
Yet, God has placed us in this world for such a time as this. I am not in debt to any of the entities that mankind so easily places the word “big” in front of. This world itself is the only earthly “big” that I am concerned with. Not only do I wish to avoid the “big” world from invading my heart (as some have suggested already has), but I see this big world as in need of an even bigger God. This world…this country…this city in which I live is “going to Hell in a handbasket.” God has reached us and He desires for us to reach others who are often unaware of how lost this world is.
God has left us here upon the Earth for a reason. “To live is Christ…” As believers, we must walk among the people of this world. We interact with them. We drive on their roads. Like the Early Church in pagan Rome, we live in an earthly dominion controlled by them. They watch and hear us. We must be keenly aware of the great potential to attract them to Christ or to turn them away by what we say or do.
In the context of this thread, it was never my intention to point out any person or “defend” the medical or pharmaceutical industry. It certainly wasn’t my intention to be divisive. Rather, I simply hoped to urge caution due to the fact that this world is watching us. There were things said that I felt concern had meandered into the realm of insinuation and simply felt a need to urge caution before taking this particular thread down the same path that other threads on the same topic have meandered.
I apologize if this simple intent was not as clear as it should have been. I thought that I had made it clear and I am not sure how I could correct it. We are all growing in the Lord. With His help, none of us are the same people that we were just a few short years ago. Since we know the Lord, our hunger for God should always be concentrated on our Lord. However, the things that we learn, faith, growth and maturity have caused us to grow in Him. Regardless of it all, it is most important to remain true to our First Love.
To ccchhhrrriiisss and amrkelly
If you guys want to get a flu vaccine that is fine with me no one here is trying to take your vaccines away from you but on the other hand you guys are clearly for mandating that others such as these nurses should not have the right without loosing their job to refuse to inject themselves with vaccines that contain carcinogenics such as mercury, formaldehyde and other things that some of us do not desire to put into our blood stream.
If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced from human diploid cell cultures that are originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others.
If you guys want to chalenge insinuationes that are given as facts than so do,
but do not get offended by facts that are given that insinuate, for by the such is how we test the well and its water
like i said before, i didnt mean to start a fight, or contention.....and when i was saying "flu shot didnt work, shrug"....thats exactly what i meant....shrug....oh well....
literally. didnt get me worked up,....the 5 days in the hospital, felt much love from the nurses, my doctor....felt blessed i even have insurance ....the whole nine yards, but there's just ONE thing i want to clear up with you........when i wrote, "build a house of prayer".....this "house" i refer to?......is literally the MOST humble of building.......we are talking three quarter inch sheets of ply wood for the walls...probably salvaged windows, wont even be electricity in, just an outlet for me to run an 16 amp orange cord to.....and the foundation?....will be 4 by 4's sitting atop foundation block, six of those, four at the corners and 2 in the middle....basically it will be a clean shack, on my front pasture, God willing...i'm think MAYBE 2,000 dollars in lumber...maybe that....its just a 20 by 20 room, on a lonely ridge in the rural Northwoods, may it be filled with saints who are serious about prayer........so i say, i pray that you and your dear one be able to buy a sturdy house........neil
Hi proudpapa,
I would ask that you do likewise. If you are going to make claims, please be prepared to understand that I was simply urging caution about the extent of the claims that you make. This topic inevitably meanders into debates over the safety of vaccines themselves. However, I did not -- and never have -- tried to "mandate my opinion" on to others. I simply urged caution and a need to research this topic further before making broad or specific public insinuations.
I was simply urging caution before we give place to anything less than pure in the "well" of our dialogue. No offense was meant and there are certainly some points that you have made for which I would agree necessitate further study (e.g. claims that the original chicken pox vaccine made from the cells of an aborted fetus).
Here is an interesting article for consideration:
http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_abortion
Hi HezWelling
HezWelling wrote ///and when i was saying "flu shot didnt work, shrug"....thats exactly what i meant....shrug....oh well....///
This is not an isolated incident and the reason is because the flue shot is only 62% effective this year according to the CDC the AP says that this is consistent with the effectivness of the flu shot in other years.
62% reminds me of a report card in my opinion it is not very good
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///some points that you have made for which I would agree necessitate further study (e.g. claims that the original chicken pox vaccine made from the cells of an aborted fetus).///
I thought you new all about vaccines??
from the National Network for Immunization Information (NNii) which by the way is not anti vaccines.
Human Fetal Diploid Cells
Human diploid cells are batches of human cells that are grown in a laboratory. Unlike cancer cells, they have the same number of chromosomes as normal human cells.
Certain diploid cell strains are valuable in vaccine manufacture because these cells can be used for a very long period of time in the laboratory and are a reliable means by which many viruses that infect humans can be successfully and easily grown. Vaccines prepared in human diploid cells have proven to be very safe over the past several decades.
Two different strains of human diploid cell cultures made from fetuses have been used extensively for vaccine production for decades. One was developed in the United States in 1961 (called WI-38) and the other in the United Kingdom in 1966 (called MRC-5).
WI-38 came from lung cells from a female fetus of 3-months gestation and MRC-5 was developed from lung cells from a 14-week-old male fetus. Both fetuses were intentionally aborted, but neither was aborted for the purpose of obtaining diploid cells.123. The fetal tissues that eventually became WI-38 and the MRC-5 cell cultures were removed from fetuses that were dead. The cellular biologists who made the cell cultures did not induce the abortions.
These two cell strains have been growing under laboratory conditions for more than 35 years. The cells are merely the biological system in which the viruses are grown. These cell strains do not and cannot form a complete organism and do not constitute a potential human being. The cells reproduce themselves, so there is no need to abort additional fetuses to sustain the culture supply. Viruses are collected from the diploid cell cultures and then processed further to produce the vaccine itself.
The WI-38 and MRC-5 cell cultures have been used to prepare hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines, preventing millions of cases of rubella, hepatitis A, varicella and rabies. In the United States, only one of these diseases can be prevented with an FDA-licensed vaccine not grown in human diploid cells. This is the RabAvert brand of rabies vaccine manufactured by Chiron Corporation.4
Some of the vaccines that are produced in human diploid cells might now be able to be prepared in alternative types of cell cultures. Some of these cell cultures were not available or were not considered suitable for use in vaccines when the original vaccines were developed. However, there is no guarantee that vaccines grown in these alternative cell lines would be as safe and effective as currently licensed vaccines and development is likely to be extremely costly. Thus, there is little incentive for vaccine manufacturers to develop and test new vaccines when an existing licensed vaccine is known to be both safe and effective.
http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines
Hi Neil,
ike i said before, i didnt mean to start a fight, or contention.....and when i was saying "flu shot didnt work, shrug"....thats exactly what i meant....shrug....oh well....
I know that I didn't mean for my initial post to be taken as a point of contention either. I understand that your flu shot didn't work in the sense that you still contracted the flu. I simply wanted to point out the probable reason for this (e.g. your vaccine was probably meant to handle a different, non-mutated strain of influenza that was unable to counter the particular strain that you contracted).
However, it is possible that the vaccination that you received DID work against the strain for which it was designed to protect you from. However, we couldn't know because you probably didn't contract that particular strain of influenza. I hope that makes a little more sense. I guess that the confusion is because I just didn't make it clear enough that an influenza vaccine doesn't close the door of possibility of contracting the flu, but offers greater opportunity of protection from the particular strains of flu for which it was designed.
Of course, this is all moot in the sense that you still had the flu -- regardless of which strain caused you to go to the hospital for care.
As for the house:
That is fantastic! I know a missionary who has desired to open a place (a sort of "halfway house") where others -- ministers and their families in particular -- can come for a time to seek God for direction. If anything is needed in this day, it is prayer and "closet" places to pray away from the hustle and bustle of this present darkness in a fallen world.
I was just speaking with my wife about why summer camps and "retreats" seem to have a good effect on providing a place where others (especially youth) can meet the Lord. In keeping with what was said in the thread about "a generation of narcissists," I think that it might be because such remote places provide a haven away from this world so that those things are more readily shut out.
In the solitude of His creation, I think that we can often realize how small we are in the grand scheme of things but also how big our God is. Moreover, we realize that, as small as we might be, we have the perfect and complete attention of the only One that really matters in life.
May the Lord bless you with this endeavor!
Hi ccchhhrrriiisss
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///No offense was meant and there are certainly some points that you have made for which I would agree necessitate further study (e.g. claims that the original chicken pox vaccine made from the cells of an aborted fetus///
I did not write this //the original chicken pox vaccine made from the cells of an aborted fetus//
I did write however write /If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced from human diploid cell cultures that are originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others./
This is consistant with the link that you posted, maybe I should change a couple of words so you do not pick it apart
/If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced (((in))) human diploid cell cultures (((whoms lines))) originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others./
Proudpapa,
I thought you new all about vaccines??
I never claimed that I know "all about vaccines." I am familiar with them in part because of personal interest, research, education and some requirements for work (unrelated to the pharmaceutical industry) that cause me to review peer-reviewed papers.
I will look over the article that you provided from the website. I hope that you will also and review the one that I included as well. Here is the text of it:
Vaccines DO NOT Contain Fetal Tissue
by Dr. Jay L. WileOf the many lies told by anti-vaccination advocates, this is one of the worst, because it hits on a real moral issue. However, anyone with a modicum of training in biology will tell you that it is impossible for vaccines (or any other injected medicine) to contain human tissue. The reason is simple: if you are injected with anything containing tissue from another person, your body will immediately recognize it as an invader and begin attacking it. This immune response is often quite radical and can easily lead to death! This is why blood from a donor to a recipient must be carefully matched before the recipient can receive it. Thus, there is no human tissue of any kind in vaccines. Unfortunately, the anti-vaccination movement (and even some naive pro- life groups) will try to convince the uninformed that vaccines contain tissue from aborted babies and that abortions must be continually done to supply this tissue to the "evil" drug companies. This is, of course, a bald-faced lie. Unfortunately, this lie is particularly evil, in that it targets a person's morally correct view that abortion is murder.
For any lie to be successful, there must be a grain of truth in it. This lie is no exception. There is a tangential connection between some vaccines and abortion. The Hepatitis A vaccine, the MMR vaccine, and the chicken pox vaccine all contain viruses (weakened or inactivated) that were grown in human cells. A virus must be given a medium in which to propagate. Many vaccines use viruses that can propagate in several kinds of mammal cells, but some viruses are so specific that they can only propagate in human cells. The viruses used in the above-listed vaccines are that specific. Thus, they must be grown in human cells.
Where do the vaccine companies get the cells for these vaccines? They get them from companies like Coriell Cell Repositories, 403 Haddon Avenu, Camden, New Jersey 08103, 800-752-3805. This company has many cell lines, which are cultures of self-perpetuating cells. Each culture of cells is continually reproducing, making more cells. Those cells are sold to researchers, drug companies, and other medical technology firms. The specific cell lines used in vaccines are the MRC-5 and WI-38 cell lines1, and they have been supplying medical research of all types for more than 35 years. Where do these cell lines come from? That's where the grain of truth in this lie comes from. Both of these cell lines were cultured from cells taken from two abortions, one (MRC-5) that was performed in September,19662 and one (WI-38) that was performed in July, 19623.
Now that you have learned the facts, we can discuss the moral issues involved. Is it immoral to use these cell lines to make vaccines? The answer is definitely not. You might think that the cell lines are somehow "tainted" because they come from abortions; however, think about it for a moment. Abortion is murder. A person who claims to be a physician purposefully kills an innocent, unprotected person. That is evil, and there is no doubt about it. However, let's consider another murder, shall we? Let's suppose one of your loved ones was shot in a robbery attempt. You rush your loved one to the hospital, but it is too late. Your loved one dies. This is another murder, and it is just as evil.
Suppose that the doctors rush in and tell you that there is a young boy in the next room who needs a heart immediately, or he will die. The doctors have analyzed your loved one's blood and found that your loved one is a perfect match for the dying boy. Would you donate your loved one's heart to the boy? I certainly would. It would be a tragedy that my loved one was murdered, but at least this would be a "silver lining" in that dark cloud. At least my loved one's death would mean that a young boy could live.
The cells that were taken from the two aborted babies more than 35 years ago are much like my loved one's heart. Two innocent babies were killed. However, they were able to donate something that has been used not only to make vaccines, but in many medical research projects over the years. Thus, these cells have been saving millions of lives for almost two generations! Although the babies were clearly murdered, the fact that their cells have been saving lives is at least a silver lining in the dark cloud of their tragic murder.
It is important to note that Federal law is quite specific in the matter of donated fetal tissue. The law does not allow for an abortion to be performed for the purpose of donating tissue, and the law even explicitly states that the abortion procedure cannot be changed in order to collect the tissue4. It also prohibits the baby's family or the doctor from profiting from the donation5. Thus, these cells were truly donated, just as any organ might be donated. If a person is an organ donor and he or she is murdered, it is not immoral for you to use those organs. Once again, at least something good will come out of the murder if those organs are used.
Now that you know the facts, you can see why I consider this lie so devious. Anti-vaccination advocates play on a person's proper moral indignation about abortion, claiming that if a person gets vaccinated, he or she is supporting the abortion industry. Of course, nothing could be further from the truth. Whether or not you get vaccinated, the same number of abortions will be performed, as abortions are not necessary to make new vaccines. In addition, you are actually dishonoring the memories of those two precious babies if you refuse vaccination, because you are refusing the one good thing that has come from their murder. At the same time, you are putting your life and the lives of your loved ones in jeopardy by refusing one of the greatest protections that medicine has ever developed! How could anyone call himself pro-life if he dishonors the memory of those who have been murdered while risking the lives of those he loves?
Interestingly enough, a June 9, 2005 statement from the Pontifical Academy for Life (the Vatican's official voice in the area of abortion/right-to-life) comes to essentially the same conclusion. Even though some organizations have mischaracterized the document as condemning the use of such vaccines6, the document, in fact, says quite the opposite. It says that when an alternative vaccine which has no connection whatsoever to abortion is available, parents should use it. There is no question that this is the moral thing to do. In addition, when there is no alternative available, parents should object by demonstration, etc. so as to force manufactures to come up with an alternative.
However, as for actually using the vaccines that have no alternatives, the document clearly says that parents can do so in order to protect their children and the community. The English translation of the document (originally written in Italian) says, "As regards the vaccines without an alternative, the need to contest so that others may be prepared must be reaffirmed, as should be the lawfulness of using the former in the meantime insomuch as is necessary in order to avoid a serious risk not only for one's own children but also, and perhaps more specifically, for the health conditions of the population as a whole - especially for pregnant women."7 Note what this official Roman Catholic document says. It says that parents should CONTEST the vaccines so as to force the manufactures to find new ways to make them, but UNTIL THAT HAPPENS, parents can still use the vaccines that have no alternative, because it will allow them to avoid serious risk to their children, and more importantly, to the population as a whole. The moral good done by the vaccine, then, outweighs any moral evil when it comes to actually USING the vaccine. The statement clearly says the MAKING of the vaccine is bad, but the USE of it is not. In fact, the document specifically mentions rubella as something that should be vaccinated against, even though there is no alternative vaccine - "Moreover, we find, in such a case, a proportional reason, in order to accept the use of these vaccines in the presence of the danger of favouring the spread of the pathological agent, due to the lack of vaccination of children. This is particularly true in the case of vaccination against German measles."7
Because some organizations have tried to mischaracterize this statement, the Catholic News Service (CNS) produced an article that quotes Msgr. Jacques Suaudeau, a medical doctor and official at the Pontifical Academy for Life, as saying, "If the health of the child or of the whole population [is at risk], the parents should accept having their kid be vaccinated if there is no alternative." 8 Because some organizations clearly do not like the Roman Catholic church officially saying that the use of these vaccines is morally acceptable, they have asked the Pontifical Academy for Life to change its statement. However, CNS reports that Msgr. Jacques Suaudeau said the document "could not be changed" because it accurately reflected church teaching.8 Despite what you might read, then, even the Vatican supports the use of vaccines that have a tangential relationship to abortion, as long as no alternative vaccines are available.
REFERENCES
1. Merck and Co, VAQTA (Hepatitis A), M-M-R-II, VARIVAX product inserts 908-423-1000; GLAXO Smithkline Heptatitis A vaccine product insert, 888-825-5249
2. Coriell Cell Repositories - Product AG05965
3. Coriell Cell Repositories - Product AG06814
4. Public Law 103-43; June 10, 1993, National Institutes Of Health Revitalization Act Of 1993, Title I - General Provisions Regarding Title IV Of Public Health Service Act, Part G, Sec. 498A: c-4
5. Public Law 103-43; June 10, 1993, National Institutes Of Health Revitalization Act Of 1993, Title I - General Provisions Regarding Title IV Of Public Health Service Act, Part G, Sec. 498B: a
6. http://www.cogforlife.org/vaticanrelease.htm
However, I would like to point out that all of this back-and-forth is getting somewhat beside the point. My primary point was initially, and still is, to state that there is much evidence that demonstrates the effectiveness of a particular influenza vaccination in regard to the non-mutated strain of influenza for which it was designed and, most importantly, to urge caution in regard to the influenza vaccine. I am not upset with you or the caution that you urge. Nor do I believe that we should be upset when anyone else urges caution about the claims that we (or others) make about such matters.
I hope that this makes more sense. The Lord bless you.
Hi ccchhhrrriiisss, you are a very educated and smart individual of which I am not ,according to the artical that you posted that plays on words is this statement by me inaccurate ???
If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced (((in))) human diploid cell cultures (((whoms lines))) originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others.
Hi proudpapa,
I am not entirely sure what it is that you are asking of me. I already touched upon what you said in this statement. I accept that you are urging caution about promoting certain vaccines. I simply urged others to research the claims made about ALL vaccines -- including the ones that elicited the discussion (influenza vaccines).
As for the claims that you raise about the chicken pox vaccine: As I said, I would need to research these particular claims further. However, I have made it quite clear that I am not mandating my opinion about vaccines to others. I am just urging caution about the claims that we make lest we find ourselves unwittingly uttering things that don't pass the muster of truth.
Like Neil said, we will give an account to God for the things that we say in private, in public and on message boards like this. Our goal should be to have a clean hands, a pure heart and a mouth that utters (or types) truth. Please do not think that I am contending with your claim in this particular statement. I am not. I go back to my original post in simply urging caution about ANYTHING that we publicly claim about vaccines, medicine or any other issue.
Hi ccchhhrrriiisss
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote //Hi proudpapa,
I am not entirely sure what it is that you are asking of me. I already touched upon what you said in this statement. I accept that you are urging caution about promoting certain vaccines. I simply urged others to research the claims made about ALL vaccines -- including the ones that elicited the discussion (influenza vaccines). //
What I am asking is simply this, according to the artical that you posted, which I would asume that you have read and have a better Comprehension off than what I do, is my statement that I wrote correct or is it incorrect?? If you feel it to be incorrect how might I word it so as though it is more accurate according to your judgment.
my original statement was this
/If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced from human diploid cell cultures that are originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others./
I added some correctiones not as though this statement was inacurate but because you seemed to want to nit pick at the details so I reworded it to say this
/If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced (((in))) human diploid cell cultures (((whoms lines))) originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others./
ccchhhrrriiisss had wrote ///I was simply urging caution before we give place to anything less than pure in the "well" of our dialogue. No offense was meant and there are certainly some points that you have made for which I would agree necessitate further study (e.g. claims that the original chicken pox vaccine made from the cells of an aborted fetus).///
I do not know what e.g. stands for but this is not what I posted, what I posted was fairly accurate even according to your artical, reliezing that you where going to nit pick it, I changed some of the wording as I clearly and openly have demonstrated. If you want to continue to nit pick my statement, I am open to any corrections as to make it more accurate but do not undermine it by rewording what I have wrote and than posting an artical that plays along with your rewording of my words.
I have been using caution with all of my claims but you have been continualy nit picking, twisting and down playing my claimes
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QUOTE:
"62% reminds me of a report card in my opinion it is not very good
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And if that would have been your average on your report card I suspect there may have been some disciplinary action takes by a parent upon a cringing child???
Hi proudpapa,
I am not "nitpicking" at the details. On the contrary, I am urging caution regarding all that is being claimed or presented.
As for your statement: I already told you (twice) that further research is needed regarding the claims that you made in your initial (and revised) statement regarding vaccines. You made claims about the chickenpox and other vaccines of which I would need to spend some time to examine. I hope that you will trust that I won't just use Google as my "guide" (so to speak), but that I will examine the specific claims that you made in this regard before I make any conclusion (if I ever arrive to that point).
Perhaps you could assist in this by citing the medical, scientific research that you examined or peer-reviewed journals and other sources that you consulted before arriving to a conclusion about the matter prior to making this particular statement. As for the "believe such a pharmakeia concoction is from God" -- this is a straw man because the statement was never made.
I wouldn't claim that any particular vaccine was "from God" any more than I would argue that the specific formulas for plastics used in the servers used to hold the messages contained on SermonIndex are "from God." I simply mentioned how vaccines are constructed and documented to counter various yet specific strains of influenza (or polio, etc...) for which they are designed.
However, please do not mistake the urging of caution about claims that you made (which I could copy, paste and highlight if you like) with some sort of "nitpicking," "twisting" or "downplaying" of any claims that you felt the authority to claim regarding vaccines. I initially urged simple caution over what it is that we claim in a public forum...made a statement about the documented effectiveness of vaccines...and then it meandered into a debate over other things related to vaccinations.
If you guys want to get a flu vaccine that is fine with me no one here is trying to take your vaccines away from you but on the other hand you guys are clearly for mandating that others such as these nurses should not have the right without loosing their job to refuse to inject themselves with vaccines that contain carcinogenics such as mercury, formaldehyde and other things that some of us do not desire to put into our blood stream.If you guys want to give your children the (MMR),(chickenpox) and other vaccines that have been produced from human diploid cell cultures that are originated from aborted fetus (called WI-38) and (MRC-5) and belive such a pharmakeia concoction is from God, than go ahead but do not try to infringe or rather mandate your opinion on to others.
If you guys want to chalenge insinuationes that are given as facts than so do,
but do not get offended by facts that are given that insinuate, for by the such is how we test the well and its water proud papa
Brother you couldn't have me more wrong. I explained my son's position with regard to medical negligence and although I haven't given the details they are pretty shocking. As a matter of fact brother I couldn't post on this site with a good conscience the details of the Doctor who was directly responsible for my son's injuries or his methodologies and the back ground to his research. My wife and I spent the equivalent of over half a million dollars investigating his activities in connection with our sons birth and subsequent injuries all of which was done with exacting legal and scientific precision as for evidential purposes in the High Court of England and Wales. It wasn't some game on the internet or a provocation of ideas to be bandied around for fleshy purposes. It was physical and deep emotional reality. It was a matter of authority.
What you appear to miss in all of this brother is that what you say to others by way of leading them becomes your responsibility before the Lord. This is undoubtably true and you will not escape from it easily. Apart from that your knowledge of these things is limited to what you are capable of reading and you have a mind made up. I recall once before in a thread "180" how you were going to go into this grim subject of human experimentation and the medical knowledge resulting from it. This was to be a gross and offensive look into the medical experiments of the concentration camps of WWII. It was my objection which brought that to an end. Though even at the time I didn't believe that you should not post. You were relatively new to the site, as was I, and I recall very well being unable to figure out how such a topic could possibly be edifying. I no more desire that you cease now. I just say that you are accountable.
Now you say to me that "if" I want to give my children vaccines made from aborted babies. etc,. Brother when my son was born I was quiet willing to lay his body in the ground and to put aside the offences of men. I have no different an attitude to this very hour. Please don't make assumptions that you understand what manner of man I am. You have no idea whatsoever.
What I share here on SI I do so for the sake of righteousness and not for the sake of winning an argument. What do I care what anyone thinks of me apart from the impression it makes in peoples minds regarding the Lord Jesus. It is in this context that I have shared in this thread and do in all the things I write. As it was plainly stated the flu vaccine was at the heart of the subject not other vaccines and the issue was that of seven nurses either resigning or else loosing their jobs rather than have a flu vaccine. We can all claim a righteous mind based on what we imagine someone else has taken a stand upon. In the end we either have our own reality of conduct and understanding or else we are deceived by vanity. There is no spiritual truth to be had from this topic. It is vain conceit and politics.
hi ccchhhrrriiisss
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///I am not "nitpicking" at the details. On the contrary, I am urging caution regarding all that is being claimed or presented.///
your urging of caution has been a tactic of diffusing the facts that I have presented without being accountable to provide facts that would clearly over ride what I have presented.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///As for your statement: I already told you (twice) that further research is needed regarding the claims that you made in your initial (and revised) statement regarding vaccines. You made claims about the chickenpox and other vaccines of which I would need to spend some time to examine. I hope that you will trust that I won't just use Google as my "guide" (so to speak), but that I will examine the specific claims that you made in this regard before I make any conclusion (if I ever arrive to that point).///
I did not ask you to do a detailed study, I specificaly asked ' according to the artical that you posted, which I would asume that you have read and have a better Comprehension off than what I do, is my statement that I wrote correct or is it incorrect??' If you feel incorrect in accordance to the tangential relationship to abortion show me how it can be written more accurately.
This does not take hours of reading through CDC documents all it takes is the reality that since you posted a link and than the artical in response to my statement that was a direct attempt to disfusse my statement.
Than Is what I posted incorrect according to your artical???
I would think that someone such as yourself whom has been advising me to use caution with everything I post that you would be well aware of what is written in the artical that you posted.
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Perhaps you could assist in this by citing the medical, scientific research that you examined or peer-reviewed journals and other sources that you consulted before arriving to a conclusion about the matter prior to making this particular statement///
no need, lets just use your artical that you should be more familiar with than I am, seeing that you used caution and studied it before you posted it
Hi proudpapa,
Please: This sort of back and forth needs to end. I feel that you have misconstrued a simple word of caution and believed that it was something that is not and was never meant to be.
I did not purpose myself to engage in a lengthy debate over various vaccines with you nor did I seek out to counter the claims that you presented as "fact" with facts that I can find of my own. Yes, the burden of proof certainly lay with the one making the claims in the first place and I do feel that your posts have been somewhat short on citations from research sources. However, part of my urging of caution was in regard to what we loosely label as "fact."
I thought that it was clear from my first post on this matter that I simply made a statement about the way flu vaccines are formulated and are documented by medical professionals (most of which have no ties with pharmaceuticals) to determine effectiveness and then urged caution before we make public recommendations or pronouncements about such things. My own recommendation in this matter was limited to encouraging others to research the matter for themselves if they are interested.
This was contained within my first post when I wrote, "Still, I would urge anyone with concerns to educate himself/herself by looking into the matter." It had nothing to do with forcing one opinion over the other and I am perplexed at how this was misconstrued to having been as much.
Now, if you feel the authority to make public medical recommendations with your own research, then you are free to do so. I simply question whether SermonIndex is the place to do that. Moreover, I said that this is a matter of conscience from the very beginning (which you stated was "well said").
Yes, I did read the article that I posted. However, I don't understand the question/statement that you are asking/making in regard to it. In fact, I even linked to the actual CDC report about preliminary effectiveness of the currently distributed influenza vaccination from which the media articles reference. I will include it below. This is in regard to the "62%" claim that you repeated several times and just what that means in the first place. To be frank, I don't even know what it is that you are trying to say about the article that I posted or even which one you are talking about (since I posted links to several).
However, I am including the text of the original CDC report that you have alluded to. It also helps to remember that the "62%" figure was not an overall "grade" but an early, preliminary number derived by examining a limited pool of respondents. It is used, along with other research and tests, as an EARLY assessment so that doctors and scientists can determine how it may be necessary to modify and make the vaccine more effective against the strains that are either mutated or more widespread.
These sort of "early assessments" are conducted each and every year. Since there are so many strains of influenza that can also mutate (rapidly at times), the vaccines are constantly checked for reliability against the various strains that are spreading so that subsequent editions can be modified to fight those particular strains.
In addition, it can be helpful to further review the topic by clicking on the links to corresponding articles (one even mentions the risks associated with egg allergies) and it might even be helpful to contact any of the doctors who participated in this particular test. There is even a number included to contact someone at the CDC for more information. I contacted three of them (via email) and await their responses.
*******
http://www.cdc.gov/MMWr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm62e0111a1.htm?s_cid=mm62e0111a1_w
Early Estimates of Seasonal Influenza Vaccine Effectiveness — United States, January 2013
Early Release
January 11, 2013 / 62;1-4
In the United States, annual vaccination against seasonal influenza is recommended for all persons aged ≥6 months (1). Each season since 2004–05, CDC has estimated the effectiveness of seasonal influenza vaccine to prevent influenza-associated, medically attended acute respiratory infection (ARI). This season, early data from 1,155 children and adults with ARI enrolled during December 3, 2012–January 2, 2013 were used to estimate the overall effectiveness of seasonal influenza vaccine for preventing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection associated with medically attended ARI. After adjustment for study site, but not for other factors, the estimated vaccine effectiveness (VE) was 62% (95% confidence intervals [CIs] = 51%–71%). This interim estimate indicates moderate effectiveness, and is similar to a summary VE estimate from a meta-analysis of randomized controlled clinical trial data (2); final estimates likely will differ slightly. As of January 11, 2013, 24 states and New York City were reporting high levels of influenza-like illness, 16 states were reporting moderate levels, five states were reporting low levels, and one state was reporting minimal levels (3). CDC and the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices routinely recommend that annual influenza vaccination efforts continue as long as influenza viruses are circulating (1). Persons aged ≥6 months who have not yet been vaccinated this season should be vaccinated. However, these early VE estimates underscore that some vaccinated persons will become infected with influenza; therefore, antiviral medications should be used as recommended for treatment in patients, regardless of vaccination status. In addition, these results highlight the importance of continued efforts to develop more effective vaccines.
To make these interim 2012–13 VE estimates, prospective enrollment of patients at any of the outpatient medical facilities affiliated with the five study sites of the U.S. Influenza Vaccine Effectiveness (Flu VE) Network* began after at least 2 consecutive weeks of laboratory-confirmed cases of influenza were identified through local surveillance.† Details of methods used by the U.S. Flu VE Network have been published previously (4). Trained study staff members reviewed appointment schedules and lists of clinical symptoms and complaints to identify patients with ARI and approached potentially eligible patients (or parents/guardians) to complete a brief screening survey. Patients were eligible for enrollment if they 1) were aged ≥6 months on September 1, 2012, and thus were eligible for vaccination; 2) reported an ARI with onset ≤7 days earlier; and 3) had not been treated with influenza antiviral medication (e.g., oseltamivir). Consenting participants completed an enrollment interview. Because date and type of vaccination were not available for this early estimate, participants were considered vaccinated if they reported having received at least 1 dose of any 2012–13 influenza vaccine before enrollment. At one study site, vaccine receipt was confirmed by a real-time Internet-based vaccine registry (http://www.recin.org) that captures 95% of all influenza vaccinations in that population (5).
Respiratory specimens were collected from each patient using nasal and oropharyngeal swabs, which were placed together in a single cryovial with viral transport medium. Only nasal swabs were collected for patients aged
Hi amrkelly
I appreciate the tactful but powerful exhortation. When I was reading your response a shiver ran down the back of my spine and the reality of how a spirit of offence and pride had began creeping into my post.
I want to appologize to you.
I feel very passionate about this subject and was feeling that What I was saying was being incorrectly Interpreted which caused me to get offensive and it was down hill from there.
I appreciate the tactful but powerful exhortation. When I was reading your response a shiver ran down the back of my spine and the reality of how a spirit of offence and pride had began creeping into my post.
I want to appologize to you.I feel very passionate about this subject and was feeling that What I was saying was being incorrectly Interpreted which caused me to get offensive and it was down hill from there. proudpapa
Bless you brother. Please don't feel that I am so offended that I don't respect your enthusiasm and concerns. As a matter of fact it is just fine. Praise God for what we have in Him.
Hi ccchhhrrriiisss
amrkellys post woke me up to how pride and offensivness has crept into my post.
After reading your last post it is clearly evident that their is a lot of misunderstandings in our post. for instance
ccchhhrrriiisss wrote ///Yes, I did read the article that I posted. However, I don't understand the question/statement that you are asking/making in regard to it. In fact, I even linked to the actual CDC report about preliminary effectiveness of the currently distributed influenza vaccination from which the media articles reference. I will include it below. This is in regard to the "62%" claim that you repeated several times and just what that means in the first place. To be frank, I don't even know what it is that you are trying to say about the article that I posted or even which one you are talking about (since I posted links to several///
This is clear evidence that we are not even on the same page concerning the topic of which we are discussing, I was specificaly reffering to the "Vaccines DO NOT Contain Fetal Tissue by Dr. Jay L. Wile" http://www.drwile.com/lnkpages/render.asp?vac_abortion that you posted in relation to my post, I was not discussing the technicals of the CDCs %62
It is obvious that by the reality of this major misunderstanding we where on different pages even on the very topic that we have been discussing in the last several post and my accusationes against you have been with out warrent,
And I want to apologize to you Chris for the accusations and the spirit of pride and offense that many of my post have had.
I feel strongly about this subject but you are correct about needing to use caution in our post.
Hi proudpapa,
The Lord bless you, brother. Yes, I agree that there was quite a bit of mutual misunderstanding going on.
When I presented the Dr. Jay Wile article that you referred to (which I was somewhat confused about), I wasn't citing it as something that I had researched. Also, I was not embracing the claims presented by the author. It was merely something that I had read which I thought could warrant some further consideration for purposes of investigation or research in regard to some of the things that have been spread regarding the safety or history of vaccines.
I do understand that you feel very strongly on this subject. I also apologize for any offense that my posts may have caused. It was never my intention to offend. In fact, I think that these sort of discussions (including topics on much more "spiritual" issues) can be so hotly debated in public forums and can serve to distract all of us from what is most important.
The purpose of SermonIndex is to "promote Christ-centered revival." Sometimes, it seems like the forums contain topics about nearly everything but this need for a "revival" of the faith. As the days grow darker, the need for a true light is more important than ever before. May the Lord help us not to be distracted by the cares of life (including non-essential church doctrines) and lead each of us in all of our discussions.
Chris,
One time you have been right: me chasing you around on SI is a lost cause and I intend not to waste my time with it. Had the moderators not removed the personal messaging system, I would have written to Mr. "Proudpapa" privately. Now, since I have made my statement in public, I am obliged to also stand behind my words.
I think you do understand that I wasn't writing for your sake, Chris. I do not consider you a brother (and I think you do know that—so why call me “brother”?), nor do I have from the years that I have seen your writing in the forums here any evidence of a genuine conversion, but, which is even more important, I haven't witnessed any evidence of sincerity in the handling of truth and accepting correction. For being in darkness is one thing, but loving it and spreading it is a whole another thing. When someone doesn't accept correction according to Scripture, this says a lot to me about their heart condition. Hence, what I am writing here I am writing for others who may be reading, and not for you. I have said enough to you on previous occasions so I know better (like in a thread on false teacher Rick Warren whom you advocated for a few years ago).
I am not interested in what you testify about your spiritual life and about your "good intentions" and longing "to be with the Lord", for this is between you and God, cannot be proved, and has no weight in this matter whatsoever! What I look for is the fruit which I see, whether it is good or bad according to Scripture, "for by their fruit you shall know them". Not by their words. And your fruit has been evident: diligently contributing to the fog and confusion in the minds of believers here with your so called skepticism and "calling for caution" and in the self-centered peddling of your own “sincere devotion to Christ Jesus”. You have ALWAYS been quick to cast doubt on facts that are incriminating the current world and religious system, calling them unproved and "conspiracies,” while never accepting proof when it is provided, which shows your double standard and hypocrisy. For you NEVER use the same measure when judging the things you have already "accepted" as truth, for which you so craftily keep advocating (stuff that's pro-government, pro-Big Pharma, pro-(pseudo)science, pro-false teachers, pro-financial and monetary system, and other things deceitfully called “knowledge”). This shows where your allegiance lies, Chris—to the kingdom of (the darkness of) this age. Sure, you will never admit it (in case you understand it), for it is a self-defeating thing to do.
The lone fact that you so rarely use the Scriptures in your posts to back up your ideas speaks volumes if one has the eyes to see it and the ears to hear it. Clearly for you God's Word IN DEED is not THE standard by which Truth is measured, for if it were, you'd go more often to it and not soak your arguments with extrabiblical/unbiblical reasoning and references. Diffusion is a good word Proudpapa used to describe your involvement.
I also do understand that the site administrators do choose what content to approve and if they have approved of your participation here, then I do not intend to be a thorn in their face any more than I have to (especially since Greg Gordon expressed his certain desire that I write no more on SermonIndex a while ago). I do stand guilty on that account because I have written since then on a few occasions, so I haven't honored his request.
Given such binding history, I would not like to continue this confrontation. Let every man who is wise do his research and make his own mind. The Scripture is indeed profitable for doctrine, correction, instruction in righteousness (1 Tim. 3:16).
I do apologize again for bringing this up in public. I intend to write no longer.
If anyone would like to contact me outside the forum, you can do so at ezekiel1824ss AT aim.com
-NotMe
NotMe,
I am saddened that you continue with your vicious attempts to discredit my salvation so publicly. To be clear: It makes no difference to me personally other than the sadness that it brings to know that you are so intent on spreading lies about me. It is sad that you do not consider me a "brother." That is your choice. However, I am comforted by the knowledge that I know the Lord. Nothing that you say about me will change that -- no matter how "discerning" that you fancy your mind to be.
I am also thankful that my conversion to Christ is not up to you. You obviously do not believe me -- but it is real. However, I can take you to the very place where I met the Lord when I came to Christ. I can explain to you what happened at that time. Yet, it is not enough to stand the muster of the "discernment" or "fruit analysis" that you claim to have from nothing more than some posts that you read (or misread) on SermonIndex.
OF course, you do not know me. You pretend to, but you do not know me. I have invited you to speak with me, yet you refuse because you are so sure of yourself and your "discernment" from reading posts on an internet message board. Yet, even your claims about what you read is skewed and your claims are untrue.
For instance, I have NEVER followed Rick Warren. I have never met the man. I have never read his books. I have never listened to him preach an entire sermon. Unfortunately for me, I urged "caution" -- which you seem to feel to be nothing more than worldliness -- when spreading slanderous accusations about him. In a thread about the matter a few years ago, I urged individuals to test the validity of the many things that he was claimed to have believed or taught by contacting him or his ministry personally. Again, I did not, do not, and have NEVER endorsed or advocated Rick Warren. Yet you claim it over and over again. So, again, you are spreading a lie.
As for my testimony, I don't have to "prove it" to you. The Lord knows my heart and I don't know why you would so often concern yourself with so aggressively slandering or trying to discredit my testimony as you have done. It truly makes no sense to me.
Your claim that I do not use Scripture to "back up" my posts is also untrue. I invite you to go back and read through the posts that I have written here over the years. While a thread about an influenza vaccine or accusations that you repeat about others doesn't usually involve much Scripture, my participation in other topics have included many passages from Scripture.
"NotMe," in the past you have questioned my salvation when I participated in threads about Bible translations, the specific accusations about ministers that you didn't agree with or other topics too. Now, you jump into a conversation about the viability and questions concerning a flu vaccine to publicly attack me. I do find it odd that you target me in all of this when others have either shared similar thoughts or publicly agreed. And, for all of your accusations about "worldliness" and how you claim that I have some unwitting (or knowing) "allegiance to the kingdom of the darkness of this age," I find it strange that you often participate in those same discussions or ignore those who participate with whom you agree with what they say.
I just don't know what I have done or said that offended you, NotMe. I have reviewed some of the threads and I find kindness when you try to "show me the truth" (as you see it) and then utter detest when I disagreed. Yet, you still come in here over a period of years in an attempt to "expose" how much that you think that I love the world or how "evil" that I am. Oddly enough, you rarely engage in a discussion or point out a disagreement with me. Rather, you enter the conversation to simply and loudly show disdain for any "caution" that I urge (usually in these sorts of threads) or openly question my salvation.
I will close by saying that you really don't know me, NotMe. You have never explained the motive or purpose that you have for constantly and publicly trying to point out how "crafty" that you think that I am. You claim that I advocate for "Big Pharma" (untrue if you actually read the posts in this thread), "pro-financial and monetary system" (huh?), "pro-science" (even though I am a Creationist who believes in a young Earth and believe the Bible first and foremost), "pro-false teachers" (most of the "teachers" that I listen to are found on SermonIndex), "pro-government" (perhaps because I believe that a Christian can pray about whether or not to vote?) and all of these other accusations -- when they are so far from the truth.
I am sad for you. You pretend to act as though you know me when the picture that you paint of me is so far from who I am, what I believe or the character that I strive for before the Lord who is always watching. Yet, you continue to spread these things so very sure of what you say. As I have told you in the past: We will both stand before God and give an account. This knowledge weighs on me continuously and causes me to be slow to speak and is the very reason that I urge caution -- the caution that you call "worldly" or "deceptive."
I recently spoke with a young man who has been largely turned off from God because of the actions and words of other people who name the Name of Jesus. I told him that I understand completely what he means.
Prior to when I came to Christ, I encountered individuals who did what you are doing in this thread and on SermonIndex. They made very public proclamations almost boasting of how "in tune" they were with the Lord. Yet, they spread lies "in the Name of Jesus" about others. They thought that they were working for the Lord when they pointed out various individuals in Church with whom they disagreed. I sat on the side as a bystander. I didn't know the Lord at the time and their actions and words didn't make me want to know Him either. I think that they were ignorant about how their turned my heart (and possibly the hearts of others) away due to their inability to love those with whom they disagreed. Yet, they felt that their hate was a spiritual thing and credited their verbal hostility to their love, knowledge and relationship with God.
I don't think that you realize what you do when you say these things. You are obviously unaware (or unconcerned) that you're wrong. However, you will give an account to God for the accusations that you make -- just as I will for my answers to them. I urge you to go shut yourself in with God. Otherwise, you will find yourself shocked on that Day when we all stand before Him.
NotMe, I am far from perfect. However, I can stand before God and say that I long to be like Him. I read His Word and the time that I spend alone in His presence is the highlight of my life. I so desire to be made in His likeness. I am still growing and maturing in the years since I met Him. The words of Paul in Philippians chapters 2 and 3 are something that I hold deep inside of my heart. While you can sit in front of your computer monitor and type upon a keyboard the judgment that you think that you have "discerned" of me, I know who I am in Christ Jesus. I know my strengths and weaknesses. I know how far that I have come since I met Him and realize that there is much more that I must learn and a great deal of maturity for which I must strive.
I ask you to think of these things and consider how you would feel if your testimony was so loudly and publicly questioned and dismissed by someone else. Then, perhaps, you wouldn't be quite so motivated with an attempt to publicly vilify someone else.
Chris,
For the sake of the of truth in this discussion, I will venture on one more response here for I have started this and owe this to you and others who are reading.
I am saddened that you continue with your vicious attempts to discredit my salvation so publicly. To be clear: It makes no difference to me personally other than the sadness that it brings to know that you are so intent on spreading lies about me. It is sad that you do not consider me a "brother." That is your choice. However, I am comforted by the knowledge that I know the Lord. Nothing that you say about me will change that -- no matter how "discerning" that you fancy your mind to be.
Chris,
There is no inherent viciousness, nor vileness, nor hate in contending for the truth. I also know that man is not immune to error and deception, so I by no means claim that one can or should contend for the truth in a God-grieving or self-righteous manner. Doing so would be a sign of hypocrisy.
I also do not hate you personally for I do not know you in a sense of having met you in person, but I truly detest the kind of Christianity you represent, and as Scripture says, "open rebuke is better than hidden love" and "the Lord chastens those whom He loves". I do not hide behind the modern wishy-washy kind of feel-good "love" and tolerance of falsehood among believers. For what love do you have for someone genuinely deceived if you do make him/her feel comfortable in their state of deception and what hope does man have but in turning from darkness unto truth? A drop of poison is poison even in a whole cup of clean water.
As for spreading lies about you, everyone can see for himself the claims that I have made over the years about you in light of Scripture and determine whether they are true. Also, since your participation here is PUBLIC, so needs be your discreditation. I know the things I am saying are not in tune with what most professing Christians today are used to hearing so I understand that they may seem off initially. But this is because people's mindset has been formed mostly by the secular educational system of the world and its media and ungodly examples all around and the all-encompassing truth of Scripture has been seen an addition. And this is not a condition which a person cannot get out of by the grace of God, but it is becoming more and more difficult nowadays with the poisoning of the mind of people through "food", "drink", "air", "drugs", etc. apart from the contamination of soul and spirit through the anti-Christian brainwashing/propaganda of the (Prussian) educational system, the mainstream media and the enemy's agents who have infiltrated congregations and have high-jacked for their purposes many a denomination.
You say you are "comforted by the knowledge that you know the Lord", making the knowing of God strictly subjective. Shall I believe your belief in your faith and salvation, or shall I examine it according to Scripture? You seem content to trust in your own heart and feelings, but such an approach of self-trust and self-assertion is invariably deceitful. The Lord calls toward self-denial without which one cannot be saved.
I am also thankful that my conversion to Christ is not up to you. You obviously do not believe me -- but it is real. However, I can take you to the very place where I met the Lord when I came to Christ. I can explain to you what happened at that time. Yet, it is not enough to stand the muster of the "discernment" or "fruit analysis" that you claim to have from nothing more than some posts that you read (or misread) on SermonIndex.
Again, I am not attacking the truthfulness of your experience. I am attacking the symptoms which do testify that this experience that you say you've had is counterfeit. Satan is able to counterfeit the works of God. Whoever doesn't know that or willingly ignores it, is destined for deception by the enemy.
A person doesn't need to spend a lifetime with someone to test their spirit. Indeed, it is written that "he who is spiritual judges ALL THINGS, but he himself is judged by no man" (1 Cor.2:15), while the natural man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God and they are foolishness to him, neither can he know them (v.14). Sometimes you can sense right away that there is something wrong with the spirit of what the person is saying, other times there are multiple layers to peel. We are commanded to "try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1). I am saying this more for others' sake than for you.
OF course, you do not know me. You pretend to, but you do not know me. I have invited you to speak with me, yet you refuse because you are so sure of yourself and your "discernment" from reading posts on an internet message board. Yet, even your claims about what you read is skewed and your claims are untrue.
I'd rather speak with you in public because your statements are public and deserve public scrutiny. I have no desire or permission to keep company with you unless you show fruit indicating genuine repentance. The Lord did commend the believers in Ephesus because "thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" (Rev.2:2). He didn't rebuke them to go get to know them better and or to keep company with them so they would make sure these people were evil. You have rightly noticed, Chris, that you are probably the only one I have picked at here for all those years. No other have I rebuked more sharply than I have you. Scripture makes a distinction between sheep and wolves appearing like sheep (saying things like "The Lord knows my heart and I don't know why you would so often concern yourself with so aggressively slandering or trying to discredit my testimony as you have done"). There is a difference between the sinner and the wicked. I have seen many issues in what other people have stated here in SermonIndex, but Chris, there is none like you, with a capacity to do much damage. And you have really high-jacked many a discussion here and had many threads locked and have interrupted godly fellowship through your "caution" pretexts. But also you have done something, which I am thankful to the Lord for. Through your participation, you have made separation from you necessary and even if this wasn't what I wanted for SermonIndex, I can say now that me not participating in the forums here for quite some time has been very sobering and has helped me move through and, to some extent, out of the chaos of modern babylonish Christianity. No need to say that allowing falsehood to thrive in place (whether it is out of ignorance or malevolence), makes this place unhealthy.
Calling out a wolf is serious thing, but I'd rather call a brother a wolf than call the wold a brother. I still don't know for certain whether you are SO deceived/brainwashed by the enemies of God since you have claimed over and over again that you genuinely believe in Christ Jesus, or whether you are a wolf with a mission. I am leaning more toward the second, but either way whether it is out of ignorance or evil intention, your fruit in comparison with Scripture do speak for themselves. If you are deceived, then only a miracle of God can save a mind like yours.
I have NEVER followed Rick Warren. I have never met the man. I have never read his books. I have never listened to him preach an entire sermon. Unfortunately for me, I urged "caution" -- which you seem to feel to be nothing more than worldliness -- when spreading slanderous accusations about him. In a thread about the matter a few years ago, I urged individuals to test the validity of the many things that he was claimed to have believed or taught by contacting him or his ministry personally. Again, I did not, do not, and have NEVER endorsed or advocated Rick Warren. Yet you claim it over and over again. So, again, you are spreading a lie.
You are getting things out of their proper context here. If Rick Warren were someone unknown or little known, your advice would be legitimate, but he is such a prominent and pivotal figure in the ecumenical movement, that his persona is COMMON KNOWLEDGE. Especially given the amount of video and audio footage online by him. Your advice to "test the validity of the many things that he was claimed to have believed or taught by contacting him or his ministry personally" is like asking the "Ministry of Propaganda" whether they really are a "ministry of propaganda" and it they deny it, then they are not. Such logic is absurd! That is precisely why Christians are commanded to examine the works, not just the words. You cannot expect a false teacher to publicly admit he is a false teacher, unless people have become so mentally debilitated by him, that even saying it out loud won't register any difference in their minds. Marjoe Goertner was one such person, who even made a film about his manipulative practices in the 1970's I believe, but even though he was a crook, he had a God-given conscience, which would not allow him to do what he did any longer. This is so far from Rick Warren.
So while your statement about examining cautiously and rightly a false teacher are technically true, in their proper context they are deceiving. See how important it is to speak truth in its right context. Otherwise, it becomes untruth. Christians are commanded to "mark and avoid" (Rom. 16:17) such people as Warren and to publicly decry and distance themselves from them for fear of allowing those young in the faith to be harmed by them if they say nothing. Again I am saying this for others' sake and not for you, because you are one of those I must mark and avoid.
Your claim that I do not use Scripture to "back up" my posts is also untrue. I invite you to go back and read through the posts that I have written here over the years. While a thread about an influenza vaccine or accusations that you repeat about others doesn't usually involve much Scripture, my participation in other topics have included many passages from Scripture.
Now is the time to back up your post with Scripture. For example, in this last post of yours, you haven't shown one verse of Scripture in your defense, but rather used manipulative pathetic and ethical appeals for your cause.
In this thread about influenza vaccinations, I gave an example about king Asa seeking the physicians in his sickness as opposed to Hezekiah, who sought the Lord, where did you rebut this statement? Here is a clear distinction between a believer in man and a believer in Jehovah and their respective end. Proudpapa gave examples of what is in vaccines to make them unsuitable for injection into one's bloodstream (or perhaps the only proof you'd accept is if you were in the lab where vaccines were prepared and you would see the fetal matter and other stuff being put in there, but even if you see this with your own eyes, most certainly you still will not be convinced that God is against it). And these two are good enough reasons for a Christian to stay away from vaccination. But were he to do some research on the history of vaccination he would find it was a Jesuit invention. To those who consider themselves Protestant this must be a red flag.
But even if there were no historical and empirical data about vaccines and their ineffectiveness and side effects, the lone fact that we don't have an example in Scripture of injecting external matter DIRECTLY into the bloodstream (and "life/the soul is in the blood") is sufficient to discard such occult-practices-made-mainstream. And even if vaccines were legitimate and healthy, forcing someone to take them without their consent is not. It would be a lot more deceitful, if vaccines were actually effective, but they are not. He who has ears, let him hear.
I do find it odd that you target me in all of this when others have either shared similar thoughts or publicly agreed. And, for all of your accusations about "worldliness" and how you claim that I have some unwitting (or knowing) "allegiance to the kingdom of the darkness of this age," I find it strange that you often participate in those same discussions or ignore those who participate with whom you agree with what they say.
Others may have similar thoughts out of ignorance, but you have an agenda to make these ungodly thoughts of yours both credible and legitimate. There are many people here who profess Christianity, some more knowledgeable than others, some deceived and uncertain about different matters more than others, which is not strange given their religious or secular backgrounds. I was one such person. And I am sure I still have a lot to learn and a lot to unlearn by the grace of God. But these people are very different from you. I had an example from one of the discussions of a woman who you could tell was wrestling with an issue and you could see she had made some even little progress in her thinking and learned some valuable lessons and taken certain measures to do what she believed the Lord was calling her to. I am sorry that I am not able to find it now. But the difference is that there are people who may be deceived or may not know better, but are SEEKING and SINCERE enough when the Lord shows them their error, to seek correction and to move forward. You are not such a person, Chris. You are one who likes to muddy the waters*. Such a stark difference. You haven't made ANY progress over the last 7 years that I have been a member of SermonIndex, in spite of many good resources on the website (apart from perfecting your diversion and manipulation techniques, which may be called "progress").
You pretend to act as though you know me when the picture that you paint of me is so far from who I am, what I believe or the character that I strive for before the Lord who is always watching.
Again, shall I believe you or shall I believe the Scripture which exposes your unequal ways? Let God be true and every man a liar (Rom. 3:4)!
I recently spoke with a young man who has been largely turned off from God because of the actions and words of other people who name the Name of Jesus. I told him that I understand completely what he means.
It is very important what the young man was turned off by. Was it really unrighteous judgment? Or is he what the Scripture would call a scoffer? Have you not read that "Whoso loves instruction loves knowledge: but he that hates reproof is brutish" (Prov. 12:1). Fatherly instruction in the ways of the Lord should be practiced within the boundaries set in Scripture. For example, a Christian has no right and no obligation to go rebuke of sin the children of unbelievers. This is their parents business. But if a father reproves his son and his son hates it, he becomes brutish and moves away from the Lord.
They thought that they were working for the Lord when they pointed out various individuals in Church with whom they disagreed. I sat on the side as a bystander. I didn't know the Lord at the time and their actions and words didn't make me want to know Him either. I think that they were ignorant about how their turned my heart (and possibly the hearts of others) away due to their inability to love those with whom they disagreed. Yet, they felt that their hate was a spiritual thing and credited their verbal hostility to their love, knowledge and relationship with God.
What a scoffer calls hate the Bible calls love. A father chastens the son whom he loves. God reproves his people lest they perish because HE LOVES THEM. Even when they do things in the integrity of their heart like Abimelech in taking Abraham's "sister" for wife and commit no willful sin. Such correction and chastening, the Scripture says, is not to be despised but is rather a blessing of the Lord (Prov. 3:11, Heb. 12:5-6, Job 5:17; Ps. 94:12, etc.). So if a rebuke is according to truth, than may no one have the heart in him to despise it. One cannot love someone unless he hates the things that destroy that person. For example, if my 14-year-old son (I am giving an example, I have no children) were to take drugs, it is no indication of love for me to let him have it his way and let this become a precedent and allow it to later ruin his life if he succumbs to its power. So a confrontation is required. And this does call for "verbal hostility" because a careless attitude toward sin would mean to him that doing his own thing is okay before the Lord and would encourage him along the road to destruction. Yes, a carnal man act of out hate for those with whom he disagrees (for which he will get his reward of the Lord), but this is and should not be true for a man of God, who is not controlled by his carnal passions.
However, I can stand before God and say that I long to be like Him. I read His Word and the time that I spend alone in His presence is the highlight of my life. I so desire to be made in His likeness. I am still growing and maturing in the years since I met Him.
Which God is this: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or a figment of your imagination? If he were the God of Israel, you would honor Him by the keeping of his commandments found in the writing is his prophets and apostles, and not act contrary to them. If you do act contrary to the doctrine, then you have accepted another gospel.
I ask you to think of these things and consider how you would feel if your testimony was so loudly and publicly questioned and dismissed by someone else. Then, perhaps, you wouldn't be quite so motivated with an attempt to publicly vilify someone else.
If my testimony was publicly questioned and dismissed, I would search the Scriptures (like the Bereans) to see if those things are so and seek the Lord, trusting that if there is anything of Him and of worth in me, that perhaps
he would have mercy upon me and not give me over to deception, but show me my error and the way wherein I must go. And if the Lord confirms that I have been wrong, I do hope that by His sustaining grace I will have the heart to obey and not get hardened. On the other hand, if I find that the accusation is false and ungrounded, I would not fear it. I myself have questioned and dismissed many parts of my testimony in these years after coming to faith in the Messiah because I was deceived about many things, BUT the Lord has been faithful even when I was faithless and didn't allow me stay in darkness unshaken, for He is a merciful God, especially merciful to someone like me who has failed him many more times and done evil before than the example of men we have seen in the Scripture. So I have seen the patience and mercy of God, but I also have seen the wickedness of my flesh and the deceitfulness of my own heart so as to know that my testimony and anything of my own--even things which I have treasured--need to go if they turn out to have been enmity against the Lord.
Chris, I do not want to be in your shoes on the day of judgment and it will be a sad but just reality (in case you are honest about your faith), to stand before the Lord and hear, "Depart from me, you worker of iniquity. I never knew you." This is a humbling and fearsome--and ultimately damning--Word for any professing Christian. And the Lord Jesus Christ said many will say this on that day, many of whom have even done __great and wonderful works__ in His name, yet remained in their iniquity.
-NotMe
(*Interestingly pigs like wallowing in the water, thus making it muddy, and we know what the Bible says about pigs.)
Brothers,
After reading through the latest interactions in this thread I found them wholly unsuitable for this website and not in the character of how conversations between brethren should take place. We are not in a place to judge and claim people "not brothers" over such small matters. Before God each person stands or falls.
Also if there is a strong disagreement we must show maturity in Jesus Christ and beg to differ with each other and there is wisdom if we cannot continue to discuss things in love, teachableness and meekness then we should halt our defence of our position and not try and defend it in these forums.
Again I ask dear brothers and sisters to review the community guidelines to try and allow the Lord to help us to speak more to each other in the "right spirit": https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44556&forum=13
This thread is being closed and locked.
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