Problems with a fairy tale future tribulation

This whole mess of a future "Great Tribulation" is a fairy tale that is full of assumptions.Has anyone really taken the time and to see where this doctrine originates? Without consulting Grant Jefferies, Hal Lindsey, and Jack Van Impe, just to name a few of the phoney's that are out there. It's origin comes from Daniel 9:26-27. Which in truth is speaking about Jesus Christ and not some future anti-christ.John said that there would be many anti-christ that have "gone out from among us". These false teachers have inserted a 2000 year (and counting) gap, that isn't anywhere in scripture.When you hear the Angel speaking to Daniel after Daniel was offering up supplication for his people Israel, because the time of their 70 year release was at hand from Babylon, God gives another set of times in the form of 70 weeks instead of years.70 weeks x 7 days = 490 years. Now every bible student agrees with this number so there is no dispute.We can know the times from history if we carefully study it. The Angel said to Daniel, "From the going forth of the commandement to messiah........." would be a certain amount of weeks.Now this commandement went forth by decree by Cyrus king of Persia IIChronicles 36:22-23.Now friends, please understand that the Old Testement is not in chronological order, they are displaced. I have been told that Reese's chronological bible is most accurate in placing the books in their proper order. (which reminds me I need to get a copy).The timeline in the book of Daniel in regards to the resurection is accurate we can trust it, why is that we have to see it with our natural eyes in order for us to believe it. The kingdom of God resides in us, yet we still look up into the sky, and yet God sticks closer than a brother, why? Because He is in us, how close can you get, eh?I said that to say this, since we are looking for a literal kingdom to fall out of the sky it is difficult to believe that the king of the universe lives in men and He calls man the kingdom of God.That is why we still build temples and elaborate churches our eyes are still fixed upon something that is tangible, yet the scripture plainly say that those things that we do not see are eternal and not that which we see.It is you and I that should be ornate and beautiful, building one another up on your most holy faith, praying in the holy Ghost.Without consulting the soothsayers of bible prophecy, can someone please share with this forum where in the bible that there is a 2000 year gap between the 69th week and the 70th week?Karl

What say ye, Karl, of the book of Revelation?

I shall pray for you Karl. You presented a post that cannot even be taken seriously because you sinned at the beginning of it. You might be right and you might be wrong or both in your thoughts that you posted....but what is important is you over look the sins that come out of your mouth and harbor in your heart. It matters not if your wisdom is correct or not or somewhat....when sin comes out of a person's mouth .... it harbors in the heart. And the salvation of a person is more important than any wisdom that will pass away.May God show you your heart this day. I love reading your thoughts .... though I agree or not agree....it does not matter. It is a Sin to talk bad about people and name their names....and you have done so proudly. Might I suggest you ask forgiveness and then write these people down on your daily prayer list? I have prayed for you. And while you are at it...write my name down too...so that I may not perform the same sin in the future. ThanksPJ

My dear brother, What on earth are you talking about?I ask the LORD many times a week to search my heart, in fact I just started asking Him that my mind would flow with His, or that He would somehow effect my decisions in every way possible.I have more problems than you know, but when my Father took on that task to clean me up, He was in for the long haul.I believe I am where I am supposed to be in Him, I can't go beyond that unless I turn back into perdition, then that is sin in itself, (been there done that).If your referring to the way that I had called Grant Jefferies, Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe phoneys, from the standpoint that I stand with bible prophecy, yes they are spreading a fairy tale doctrine that didn't originate from the bible, it was formed thru assumptions by crafty men in the form of disspensationalism.I wish that someone would please take the time to read the first Chapter of Revelations and see that the book is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto HIM (Jesus), to shew unto his servants (called out ones) things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS........"John wrote down things that HE HAD SEEN (past), and THINGS THAT ARE (present) and THINGS THAT SHALL BE HEREAFTER (SHORTLY will come to pass). So when we read the book of Revelation, we need to take in consideration that which is PAST, that which He was referring to be in the PRESENT and that which was SHORTLY coming to pass.In our present day, everyone is throwing the whole book into the present circumstances and the future.Now let me tell you about David Wilkerson's book the Vision. He had a revelation back in 1974 and that book is now fulfilled. Christ gave John a message that was shortly to come to pass 2000 years ago and according to most it still hasn't come to pass.I think we need to quit reading the newspaper or watching the news looking for end time prophectic messages that might refer to the revelations or Matthew 24 Rexella van Impe will do that for us. Remember John was in the SPIRIT and was taken UP, wherever UP is. Which means that what he saw in the Spirit is spiritual and needs to be interpreted.When a message is given in tongues, should not it be interpreted? if not let that person be quiet.I would highly recommend anyone who is seeking for a better understanding on the last days, to go to www.lightofthecity.com and look for the audio page on your left. "last days" You WILL be convinced! If the links don't work, I will gladly send the message to you via email, just as me for it. I can feel the urgency in the writer of Revelation when he wrote ch 1 v3 "Blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the prophecy of this book, and keep those things which are written, for the TIME IS AT HAND.I sincerely covet your prayers brother, I only want to know His ways, so please pray that I know more of Him. I don't believe that I have much wisdom or knowledge, though I have prayed for it for many years, but the more I know Him the less I know of anything. (it's very humbling) Bible prophecy used to be cumbersome and awkward, because there was too many problems with the way I believed it being a Post Tribber.But now that I see it in a preterist view point, I see Jesus in a brand new light, in fact I see Jesus in all the scriptures. If anyone wants to know more about the end times THEN, 2000 YEARS AGO, you can go to www.planetpreterist.com or www.mikeblume.com from an Apostolic point of view.This way is the correct way, and if it causes division, then so be it, it needs to be told. If it was trivial and it was causing a division, then I would abandon it immediately for the sake of unity. But because I know it to be true, then we'll let the truth seperate.Karl

Your original message was edited, as I can see. I am sincerely thinking about your advice. I can agree with you to a certain degree, yes we should be causious in NOT revealing names that might offend others.But for the sake of false teachings, should those names be revealed? So that others would be warned.Umm...For example, Hal Lindsey in his prophectic warnings in the 1980's had the church and the world in a tail spin. His book "the late great planet earth", 1980's countdown. The flurry that those books caused it was unbelievable, he sold millions.When the world is in turmoil, which it was then because of the Soviet Union and the United States, many jumped on the band wagon of prophecy and capped on the dividends. When everything cools down, you hear less of that stuff. When the war in the gulf started everyone jumped on that band wagon again, then it died down. Then the second invasion into Iraq every body is now on this kick about the rebuilding of Babylon. But according to the prophecies that brought her down so long ago, she became a desolation and a waste land to this day. She will never rise in her former glory for that head of Gold no longer sits on the shoulder of those former governments for they are all been brought down to ruin.What stands today is the Rock (Christ Jesus) that was hewn out of a mountain without hands, that was cast upon that statue which caused it to break in pieces, and they were thrown to the wind and no place was found for them. And that Rock became a Great Mountain (Our Mount Zion) and it filled the whole earth. But here we are 2005.We think we have it all together, there are things that are not even written in the bible that would knock our socks off when told.For,"He revealeth the DEEP and SECRET things; He knoweth what is in the darkness and the Light (Jesus) dwelleth with Him. Dan2:22Brother your o.k. I appreciate your input, when I am replying to your message, keep in mind that I am not just speaking to you but to all.Karl ;-)

Brother Mike, We can't all just have opinions, how can any of the things that we hold true be solid, if all we have are opinions?There is nothing wrong in being adament and a bit obstinate on those things that we hold to be the truth, even you can agree with that, for even your posts give a strong impression that what you hold as the truth is more then just a mere opinion.And thank God that we do.The quote that you had placed regarding my ignorance regarding Wisdom and Knowledge was not suggesting that I don't know anything, but rather I was sharing with any like minded saint that as we become less and less and Christ becomes more and more it seems that what we know in the ways of Wisdom and Knowledge I don't know much of anything. At one point in Paul's ministry in Phi 3:7-8 he counted what he had gained in the past to be dung. I truly pray that you understand this in that light.But as regarding the Parousia of our LORD Jesus Christ, as this is what we are talking about, I know that by believing this way I am been heralded as a heretic. But let me say this, I wish that I grew up believing this, because it has taken much considerable time and study to change my view point, as now that I look back at what I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching, and how foolish I was to believe in such superstitions and fairy tales. When you consider Daniel 9:27 yourself, Where is the 2000 year gap between the 69th and 70th that today's bible teachers teach us at? Where do they get such a number and incert it between those years? And why is the "he" an Anti-Christ? Why can't it be Jesus Christ who came to "Confirm" the covenant with many for one week the final week of the 70 weeks that was determined, the week that He was cut off in the middle of. The one who caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and because of the overspreading of abomination He (Christ) shall make it desolate. God sent Israel into captivity for 70 years according to the word of Jeremiah, God had no problem with keeping time. They stayed in Babylon for exactly 70 years. Daniel knew that 70 years were just about up so he goes to prayer and God sends an Angel to tell him about the 70 weeks that was to be their end even to the consummation. But the Angel gives them a key when all this prophetic message of the 70 weeks would begin, it would begin from the going forth of the commandement to rebuild Jerusalem. In Which Cyrus also called Artaxeras gave the proclamation for the Jews to leave Babylon and to go back to rebuild. God moved upon Nehamiah and Esra to rebuild the wall even in troublous times, as you can read in thier books that they were having constant trouble building the wall. From that time to 69th week there would be a series of event that Daniel unfolds when you read about the king of the south and the king of the north, these were document in the books of the maccabeas. But God gave Daniel this time line because He was going to be silent for a space of 430-90 years, no prophet from God was going to be heard of during this time. The next time we hear of any prophet that comes on the scene was John the baptizer.When Jesus came on the scene, thus the 70th week begin to unfold. I won't dispute whether It started at His birth or when the Kingdom of God descended in bodily form like a dove and lighten upon Him. But I will add this that the law and the prophets were until John after that the Kingdom of God was preached. It suggests to me that before the 69th week is the law and the prophets and after John begins the 70th week. God has no problem bringing an age to an end.This an exhastive work, but well rewarding, as it reveals Christ in every detail. Thanks for your post, I enjoyed writing this.Karl

Thank you for your input, I went to the site and read the preface and I gathered from that what his views were. Mind you I tried to read the text, but I get easily bored when swallowed up with much theological jargon. Simplicity is where it's at for me. Thanks again.Karl

Karl,From your posts, "simplicity", God available to everyone without need of an intermediary, your view that Revelations is not in the future, you sound like a Quaker. What is your faith?Bubbaguy

And what makes you think they haven't already?What are you looking for from these 3 sets of 7 judgements?God was silent with Israel for over 400 years, between Malachi and John the baptizer.When you read the prophets and their message to Israel you can see why God became silent. If someone stops talking to you there is something wrong. But God didn't leave them in the dark totally. Those who understood the times, were given thru the prophet Daniel, a time line regarding the king of the north and the king of the south, and a few other series of events that would lead up to the coming of the messiah, which was the whole point of Daniel's 70 weeks. When Christ came in the 70th week, there were 7 things that he would accomplish. Please read them yourself in Daniel 9:24.Now if you are of the opinion of the futurist and those things that Christ accomplished when He came in the flesh is still future then we are all in trouble and we are still in our sins and our faith is in vain.Karl

Dear Brother, The beginning stages of my development into this teaching was Daniel 9:27 with the 'he'. From that inception things started to snowball and all the scriptures started coming together. Mind you I was much confused about alot of things, because I had alot of the confusion from Christianity's viewpoint. There was a point in which I laid the bible on the shelf because everytime I opened it up I kept seeing scripture referring to Christ and what He had accomplished 2000 years ago. I was in a transition and in that transition there was much confusion. When you believed that bible prophecy is still in the future, the transforming of that knowledge to a greater understanding is scary.The holy Ghost would be telling me something, and I would be arguing that that was still in the future, and that went on for a while. That is why I put the bible on the shelf, I was refusing to hear anything other then Daniel 9:27, I accepted that with open arms, in fact it was easy to receive. But this other stuff was very heavy.In time the LORD would show me some other things and I would begin to read the bible again, I knew He wanted this matter settled, so I could move on to other things like growing in grace and in the knowledge of Jesus.Then I came to the understanding that there is no rapture or secret rapture of whatever term is used. The reason why I don't believe this is because Christ has come, His parousia is ruling now in the heavens. Satan was thrown out of heaven, he was toppled.The futurist say that the darkness would increase, but the bible says something different. 1John2:8 ".........Because the darkness is PAST, and the true light NOW shineth".The futurist say that a future anti christ is coming the one they say is not yet come, but John again says in verse 18 "Little Children, IT IS THE LAST TIME: and as YOU have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrist; whereby we KNOW that IT IS THE LAST TIME". verse 20 "But you have an unction from the Holy One, and YOU KNOW ALL THINGS".Now what would it profit those 2000 years ago believers to know that an antichrist would be coming sometime after 2005, 2000 years later?You know that kind of thinking makes God out to be stupid. That he tells them to prepare for something that won't even be in thier life time and that they have an unction from the Holy One and THEY KNOW ALL THINGS. and leaves us poor souls without this knowledge or this unction, because I guaruntee you that this church world has no idea who or what this so called antichrist is or where it is coming from. They have opinions and ideas but NOT what what the early church knew.They knew what it was, because it was given to them thru this unction. Karl

I am of the Pentecostal persuation. I used to lean towards the United Pentecostal arm, but I think more towards the Assemblies of God, as I believe that there is a Father and a Son and not the way the United Pentecostals believe it to be. I believe in the baptism in the holy Spirit with evidence of speaking with other tongues. I don't believe in Standards or standards of holiness, I believe they corrupt a man, and that we should live out from our born again spirit man thru the power of the holy Ghost. I believe in water baptism in Jesus name, though I believe this to be a practice that we must follow it is not something that I hold dearly as I believe we should move unto perfection (maturity) not laying again these elementary principles.I believe that the hope of the Church is to see Christ manifest in us grown up to maturity or perfection. That all the world may know that we have love for the brethern.I believe that that Christ loves His body regardless if it is sick or downcast. His body has been in restoration mode since the reformation and continues on to this day.God gave Luther the revelation that the Just shall live by faith. He ran with this concept and paid for it with his life. A little later on we see the ordinance of baptism being restored thru the Anabaptist and other reformist namely the Wesleys. All these things were preparing for more to come, in the which the baptism of the holy Spirit was restored to the church with Azusa street and other places where the holy Ghost was outpouring. Then the ministry gifts became more fluent, some misused, but nevertheless used. Today we have a hunger growing into those who want to know God as thier Father, they want to know His ways, and that Christ may be formed in them. There is a deep yearning to know the heart of the Father. Isn't that what Jesus prayed that we may know Him the only true Father?Yes indeed, Praise God, to know His ways are past finding out for those who do not understand Him, but for those who experience Him they will understand them.Karl ;-)

IronMan,Well there might be a reservation there on the tribulation after all no one in there right mind wants to go thru any such things. But we do, for God has raked me over the coals on a number of occastions and when it looks like all hope is lost He arrives on the scene with His great salvation to pull me up out of that mess.But to answer your question, no I am not afraid of it, I only want the truth, and I believe that I am being led in that direction concerning bible prophecy.Brother when you quoted those scriptures to me from the book of revelations I see everything so clearly fullfilled. There is no straining to find out what this means or that means, it's so plain. I am sorry if that doesn't make any sense. I see what I read in Old Testement and relate that to the new and it's just exciting to me."the natural mind cannot recieve the things of the Spirit".Now does that mean that I stop fellowhipping with you, certainly not. I have brothers and sisters here that I fellowship with who see just like you do, but do I stop fellowshipping with them or they me? no. That subject is not brought up, and when it does, I hold my peace, I say nothing I let them talk about whatever is on thier mind. I can't change their minds, so why try. I leave that to the holy Spirit as He has done with me. I write on this forum because I am writing to thousands if not millions of people that I do not know, but someone might have this understanding, and I have seen a few that do.Karl

You know I hear people quote this and I can't believe how they read this and can't understand it.Paul says in 1Corinthians 12:28 "God has set SOME in the church, 1st Apostles 2nd prophets, 3rd teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues".Verse 29 "Are all Apostles are all Prophets and teachers are all workers of miracles?"Verse 30 "Have all gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues, do all interpret".Firstly everyone attacks this very little portion of scripture, "Do all speak with tongues".The key word in this whole thing is SOME. Some means some and not all when he is talking about the ministry and the gifts.These have nothing to do with when you are baptized with the holy Spirit, at times they may because I don't want to put God in a box. For example the 120 spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance and they were speaking in a language they never learned but those who heard them speak in their own language could. It is not recorded that they spoke in that language again. It was an initial evidence that the holy Ghost had come.Further proof of this was when Peter and John went to Samaria (Acts 8) because they heard that all of Sameria received the word. They went to Samaria because first of all Peter had the keys of the kingdom to open to Samaria and secondly they came to lay thier hands on them so they might receive the holy Ghost for He had not fallen upon none of them only they were baptized in the name of Jesus.When Simon SAW that by the laying of the apostle hands the holy Ghost was given he offered them money. Now what did Simon the Sorcerer see when people were being filled with the holy Spirit?He must have seen something that sparked his interest to offer money.And further why did the Apostle think it necessary to come down to Samaria to lay hands on the people so they too might receive the holy Spirit when they were baptized in water in the name of Jesus? Wasn't the baptism in water enough? According to them it was not. Which makes you wonder why people are seeking alternative routes in receiving the holy Ghost.Now they do this because they don't believe in the speaking of unknown tongue as the spirit gives the utterance. But in doing this they are burying themselves by arguing this point because then we end up doing away with the Apostleship and the Prophets and Teachers ministry. Because it also says, "Are all Apostles are all Prophets and teachers?".What Paul was simply saying was is everyone called to be an Apostle, is everyone called to speak in tongues. He was saying NO, not everyone is called into the same office, but He goes on to say that we should covet earnestly the best gifts. So we all jump on the band wagon with Paul and delete all gifts and offices and we just seek Charity or Love. But He wasn't saying that either.Paul was saying again, if you want to covet earnestly for the best gifts, I am going to show the best way to do it, follow after charity. Charity is your doorway to the best gifts. Because by following after agape love your seeking the heart of the Father for your life, and He will bestow to you what will honour Him.Many never take this route. They covet the gift and the power that goes along with it, and God will not turn any man away who has faith to obtain the gifts, and we have seen throughout history of what Power does to a man who has these gifts.As you can see this when Paul says, "Tho I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not charity I am nothing". He is saying this because the gifts without charity makes you zero.The perfect will of God would be to follow after Charity when coveting the gifts of the Spirit. Now when you are filled with the holy Spirit YOU WILL SPEAK IN TONGUES as the Spirit gives you the utterance. That is a given, but if you don't believe in that , I can't help that if you don't. Smith Wigglesworth argued day in and day out with the revivalist who came into his town about the speaking in tongues. He claimed to have the holy Ghost. He said, "I have the holy Ghost, but I don't need these tongues", and he got to arguing about so much that that turned into hunger that he didn't care anymore, he wanted God, and finally after arguing with one of the sisters about it, he asked her to pray that he get what they had, she laid hands on his head prayed that the fire fall and she left the room while God filled him with the holy Spirit and a river began to flow out of his inner most being and burst into speaking with tongues. My Mother and Dad who received the baptism of the holy Spirit spoke in tongues when they receive it and never spoke again afterwards, it is a sign that the holy Spirit filled an individual.Karl