Do CHRISTIANS LOVE GUNS?? by Andrew Strom

For me it comes down to Bible translation

If John the Baptist was preaching a radical message and was telling the soldiers that came to be baptized
(KJV) "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.' than we must conclude that the message of the kingdom is completely different from the old testament, that not only endorsed military action with the enemy but punished those such as king Saul who did not slaughter all whom God had instructed him to.

But if What John is saying is what the New American Standard and most other modern translations translates, that What John was saying to the soldiers that came to his baptism is that (NASB)Luke 3:14 "Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”
Than the message of the kingdom is not a radical one, the old testament law of shall not kill still contains Exemptions which would include military combatant participation and self defence.

This issue has been much of a struggle for me in that I have been so indoctrinated with the exemption doctrine.

I have searched the Scripture for years up and down for the truth on this subject, being very indoctrinated in the protestant exemption doctrine. even though many will argue with me it comes down to this verse and as a Believer in Gods sovereign ability to inspire His Words in my own Language down to the jot and tittle despite the supposed contradictions and all of the educated nay sayers, I have to Lay down my exemption doctrine

One cannot logicaly make a case for nonresistance ,If John was just telling the soldiers “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.” Because if this is all he was telling them, when they asked him what they should do, than John was endorsing combatant status by not explicitly speaking against it.

Even though I as a bible believer have had to Lay down my exemption doctrine, I am still grateful and thankful for those freedoms that we have in the US and am thankful to the soldiers whom thru the centurys believed that they where loosing their lives for my liberty, For any one whom would murmur about such freedoms perhaps the such should seriously consider moving to a part of the world that is hostile toward freedom.

its not about guns. its about freedoms and rights as americans guarunteed by the constitution as intended by our founding fathers. today it's guns, 2morrow it will be your speech and next week it will be religious freedoms. watch as america becomes more and more accepting of homosexuality. it all goes hand in hand. the more special rights are afforded to homosexuals the more basic rights are taken away from the other 93% of american citizens. its progressive and can not be reversed.

It fasinates me how easily those who bask in the liberty and freedom which has been afforded them by the sacrifice of others, can so casually critisize those very freedoms.

Should we prohibit stealing, murder, coveteousness, adultry, ect. because our home is not of this world?

This is not about chistian rights this about the human responsibility to protect those who are unable to protect themselves.

It is about standing up against terrany and those who would use the power entrusted them to mannipulate and enslave the very people who gave them that power.

Politics can never bring peace that endures and our founding fathers were well aware of that. Many of them trusted in Christ for that, but they did not feel that it negated their civil duty to their fellow citizens.

May God give us wisdom to know when to fight for what is right, and never lose sight of the One in whom our hope rests.

In Christ alone,
Tim

the thing most people miss is that the 2nd amendment duz not exist so that we can hunt deer. part of the intent was so that each man or woman can protect their homes and families. but if u read the writings of the men (many of whom were christians) who framed the constitution the main intent for the right to keep and bear arms is so that the GOVERNMENT would not be too quick to overstep its boundaries, which over the past 50 yrs it has become quite adept at doing.

If we saw an old man being drug off to his death just because he is old, would we do nothing?

If we had the means to stop wrong, would it be right to do nothing?

If you are hungry do you work to earn money and buy food or do you sit and wait for some sort of miracle, or just assume that it is God's will for you to die? Of course we provide for ourselves according to abilities God gives.
To do anything else would be sin.

If God gives us the means to protect one who is weak or defensless and we sit and do nothing, I believe that is wrong.

And though I value my spiritual freedom that was purchaced at a much higher price than human blood, it not obsolve me from the responsibility to value the freedom given me by human blood.

To fight to keep those freedoms does not mean that I am unable spread the gosple or share the love of Christ, no more than walking in protest of abortion.

many americans, including government officials, did nothing as hitler's war machine rolled across europe in the 1930s. the british tried to appease hitler. what was the cost? 60,000,000 lives. that was the cost of sitting back and doing nothing. i believe the blood of those people is on many different hands, and the church is not exempt.

I agree SkepticGuy.

Well SkepticGuy said about all I would have said. I own a 30/30 rifle and a couple handguns for "Protection". I live in a rural area were sometimes people stop out front of the property to do whatever.One night about 3:00 am in the morning, we had someone trying to get in our gate, he was making so much noise, I could hear in inside the house. I went out "with my rifle" and my pistol on my side, and ask him whats up? he ask me if I had a cigarette, go figure. I called the sheriff on the way out, just in case, they showed up @4:30 1.5 hrs later which is common out here. I don't own a firearm because of any Bible scripture, or own one for any Biblical reason, I own one because I like to use the wisdom God gave me, to protect my family. I have always said, when seconds count, cops are only minutes away.

I guess as long as the glory of God is absent people will be wrestling with questions such as these.

Let me put that the other way around. Let us get seeking the glory of God. Isn't this what we Christians are supposed to be about? I assure you, with the glory of God in our midst we won't have to concern ourselves with questions like this any more.

AD

When we are in heaven there is alot we will not have to concern ourselves with.

Their is something special about Jesus and the disiples having 2 swords and the ability to resist being delivered to the Jews, but rather choosing to willingly lay down His Life.

What a testimony it is to have the ability to defend ones self but willfully lay it down for the sake of the kingdom.

Jim Elliot, Nate Saint, Ed McCully, Roger Youdarian, and Peter Fleming is another wounderful example of Men whom willfully layed down their lives for the sake of the kingdom, They had guns and the ability to use them but since they believed in their heavenly home, They only shot their guns in the air and refused to use them on the unsaved Waodani Indians that only had spears, By this act of loving their enemys these men lost their earthly lives but many of these Waodani Indians got saved including two of the killers Kimo and Dyuwi whom later we know Baptized Steve Saint the son of Nate whom they had killed.
What a Testimony

amrkelly...Brethren the cops might be asleep in bed but Christ is a very present help in times of trouble.

It did not matter rather the cops were sleeping or awake, when I was in Vietnam fighting the political game between the USA and the USSR, with no sense and purpose and witnessing my Buds getting shot and killed, and blown to pieces. Trust me I know first hand what calling on God is like in times of trouble, so I sure don't need that sermon. When your pinned down in a foxhole with two dead buds listening to mortars rattling in the tubes yelling incoming! for hours at a time, God is the only person you can call on, because no one else can hear you. I could write you a book on "Calling On God".

amrkelly..And yet Mr Pro you insist that you need a rifle and a holstered pistol to confront a man seeking a cigarette.

To bad you were not my guest that night, you would have already known what he was up to before I walked 150 yards out to the front gate at 3:00 in the morning to see, I could have just stayed in bed. Can you pass some of that abundant discernment you have my way? Another perfect example of a brother judging another brother from cyberspace, trust me you would not even come out of my house were I live at 3:00 in the morning, if I told you all the stories from the happening around the farm. And I thank God for the wisdom he has given me, or no doubt I would be dead by now.

Sometime we need more than a Brother or Sister saying, “Just call on God” I will be praying for you” “Let go and let god” “Well, it was god’s will!” or “just let Jesus take the wheel.” Sometimes I would just like someone to say to me, as I have many, many times in my life said to many Brothers and Sisters, I love you and I am here for you. Don’t get me wrong, all the above is good, but when your being physically attacked/shot at by the enemy in “real time” hearing I love you and I am here for you, gives someone the feeling, this person would actually join in on the battle. I would have loved to seen how many Christians would that say, “Just call on God” I will be praying for you” “Let go and let god” actually join me in that foxhole.

Another thread going south, guess it's time for me to bail out,I just cannot hold my own against the judgmental.
God Bless!

Hi guys do you all lock your doors to your house, or car ,If so why ??

how I would interpret much of the logic on this thread it would seem as a hypocritical thing for many here to do so ??

My question would be to the men who are basically against guns would be, and this is a big what if....but... what if you had an intruder and he began to rape your wife and children what would you do? This does happen in this day and age. So, I honestly want to know answers from the previous posters who have spoken against owning a gun and have insinuated that gun owners are not really trusting in God and have said that this earth is not our home so what will be will be.

My question would be to the men who are basically against guns would be, and this is a big what if....but... what if you had an intruder and he began to rape your wife and children what would you do? This does happen in this day and age. So, I honestly want to know answers from the previous posters who have spoken against owning a gun and have insinuated that gun owners are not really trusting in God and have said that this earth is not our home so what will be will be.

i have observed men on this forum say they would do nuthin 2 protect their wife and children becuz jesus said to turn the other cheek, or if a man asks 4 ur cloak give him ur coat also. i see nuthin in scripture that even comes close 2 saying that men should allow their wife and children to be victimized, raped or brutalized. i see plenty that talks about protecting them, caring 4 them, and much more.

if a man married 1 of my daughters and he allowed her or my grandchildren to be victimized he would be smart 2 fear me more than any home invader. i am convinced my response would be the response of any christian man who understand the scriptures.

By Gabriel Pearl

I go spear fishing in the ocean at night with just a flashlight and a spear gun, in 50 feet of water infested with prowling sharks. Not much bothers me. But one thing scares me. There is one critter I really respect: bears. Bears have it all. They are fast runners, much faster than the fastest man. With their quick paws, they can snatch fish and seal from the water. Tropical bears climb trees to drag monkeys from their safe perch. They don’t even think twice about digging into an angry bee- hive. I guess you could say they have us humans beat in every physical respect. And, if you think that’s bad, it’s not even the worst; they have a temper that far exceeds their physical strength, which you will experience just trying to get close to one of their young. Afterwards, you will hear people say things like, “Poor guy, wonder if he even saw it coming?” and “How long did you say it took the bear to do that to him? Terrible shame. He was a good guy”. Don’t let anybody tell you otherwise. The bear is a predator—never to be trusted.

Even in today’s society, there are more predators than ever. You don’t know who you can trust. You eat lunch with somebody at work for years, just to find out he abuses his daughters and their friends. It’s very sad. God will rise up in judgment someday, and he will be strong, harsh, and completely righteous in his vengeance. Until that time, it’s our job as parents to raise our kids to have a fair chance at life, not one of shame and remorse brought on by a moment of gratification for some lowlife you thought you could trust.

This past winter I was sitting up in my tree stand, deer hunting. It was a beautiful afternoon. Everything was perfect, wind, moon phase, temperature. Suddenly, from around the edge of the hill a deer came running. In one smooth motion I brought my gun up and flipped the safety off. The closer the deer got, the more I realized it was just a fawn. Some hunters would be bummed at this point, but I was stoked, because there is only one reason a fawn runs—coyote. I stayed paused and excited. Sure enough, the predator came running about a hundred yards back. Needless to say, it never knew what hit it. One second it’s trying to get an easy meal off of a baby that got separated from its mother; the next moment, it’s as dead as a tanned hide hanging on the wall. I like harvesting deer. They are good to eat. But I LOVE killing coyotes. They deserve it. They are cowards, picking on the small and weak.

When I was 11 years old, I went on a mule ride with my grandparents. It was a weekend of true hillbilly fun, riding miles in the summer heat all day long with a bunch of tobacco chewing, overall-wearing, heehaw looking good ‘ole boys. It was a great time. The second day, I met this older gentleman, about 55 years old. He spoke well, was clean cut, and was better dressed than the rest of the bunch. He seemed to know my family and talked about my mom. He was definitely a good man. He said there was a nice trail around the lake that we could walk around first thing in the morning, and that we would see lots of snakes or turtles. That was all I needed to know. The next morning at daylight he tapped on my tent. I was up in a second and ready to go. It took about an hour and a half to walk around the lake. We had a great time, but I only saw one snake.

When I got home, I told my parents how much fun we had riding mules, catching perch, walking around the lake. “Walking around the lake?” they asked. “Yeah, I met this really nice old guy. We walked around the lake. It’s ok, he knows you. His name is so and so.” Their faces turned ash grey. I knew it was serious. They said he was a pedophile from way back. Other kids had charged him, but nothing had ever stuck, and they had not seen him in years.
It wasn’t until a couple of years ago that I pondered back to that time at the mule ride and the gravity of the situation. Was I not his type? I doubt it. I was just a “cub”, and he was a seasoned coyote. So why did I go unscathed? It’s pretty clear to me now. It’s because I was a cub, and not a fawn. Sure, the cub might have wandered away from the den for the weekend, but the coyote knew there was not a tree too high, nor water too deep, and no way to outrun the wrath of the bear—my parents. Their reputations were known abroad, and the coyote knew that to mess with this cub was a sure way to lose what he loved most—and I don’t mean his freedom.

Some of you have fawns for children, and some of you have cubs. There is a big difference between the two in the mind of a coyote. Fawns are easy prey, and there are no consequences to the coyote if he eats one. But mama bear will have no mercy for the creature that dares to mess with her cub.

If you are a parent in today’s world, it’s your responsibility to be bearish about your children. People need to know, and coyotes need to know: If you mess with my cub, you get the full bear treatment. – Gabe,

http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/becoming-a-bear/?topic_slug=protecting-your-children

I did not own a handgun until a couple of years ago, when my dad gave me a 9 mm pistol that belonged to my grandfather. I have never fired it, although my dad keeps bugging me to get my concealed carry license because of the training associated with it. But I can always find something else to spend $150 on. Even if I did get my concealed carry, the likelihood that I would ever carry a gun in public is slim at best. I’d be too paranoid.

My personal, probably jaundiced view is that gun control measures will not stop events like those at Sandy Hook. This is because there are too many guns out there already. In other words, even if all of a sudden gun control measures were passed, a person could likely easily find the type of gun he wanted. Or, he could make a truck bomb like Tim McVeigh. On the same day as the Sandy Hook shooting, some nut in China killed a bunch of school students with a knife. If a deranged person wants to kill a bunch of people, he doesn’t need a gun. It doesn't take a whole lot of creativity to think of a whole lot of different ways.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with restricting or banning sales of AK- 47s and the like (even my dad who is more staunch than me on this issue has conceded this point). I think what gun owners fear is that they will be asked to give up their guns, or at least register the ones they have. If a gun is registered, then the government knows where to come if they DO decide to take it away. The other problem with gun control, from the conservative standpoint, is that only law abiding citizens will abide by the laws. I have read some anecdotal stories of how Mexico passed very strong gun legislation a few years back; as a result only the drug gangs have guns and there has been mass carnage in that country ever since. Not sure how true this is, but regardless this is what conservatives fear.

I agree that Christians may be a little too rabid over this issue. After all, we are told to “turn the other cheek.” That may apply to personal affronts and insults, not sure that it means we should stand by and allow our wives to be raped and killed if we are able to do something about it. That is an extreme example, but you get my point. In this day and age of meth addicts etc., I am hearing of brazen home invasions and burglaries all the time. A lot (most) of evangelical Christians are conservatives, and an awful lot of them are hunters (but not me!) so guns are a touchy subject.

I am already very disappointed by Obama's plan. I had hoped he would spend AT LEAST IF NOT MORE time addressing the problem of brutal violence in movies, TV and video games as he would guns, as I believe the root cause of these shootings lies right there. It is a trite comment anymore but it is true; a gun will not kill anyone just sitting there. Someone has to shoot it. And the people who are shooting them at innocent people almost invariably are influenced and desensitized by the violence they see in the media. I think it should be an obvious conclusion that we have so many of these terrible shooting events today (compared to 20-30 years ago) NOT because there are more guns but because people have been unduly influenced by what is now standard fare in the media. I like to watch Andy Griffith and Leave it to Beaver. Those shows will never influence anyone to go shoot people.

But again, my cynical view is that the media issue will not be seriously addressed because liberals have media support, and they will not want to tell the media what they can and cannot show. And of course there is the whole 1st Amendment thing! It would be nice if media would begin voluntarily policing itself, but I do not see that happening. After all, sex and violence sells advertising, school children and theater-goers be damned.

Bottom line is that from a pure statistical standpoint, the risk of being killed in a Sandy Hook type event is still exceedingly small. Law-abiding gun owners don’t want the right to keep and bear arms take away or severely limited because of what a small percentage of deranged or evil persons do. Let’s face it- evil or deranged people are the ones who murder people. Figuring out how to keep them from doing so is a lot bigger problem that simply stopping the sale of automatic weapons at gun shows.

Much of what I see is mainly distracting from the mission we as Christians are on.And I more than most here derive an income from the very thing that is under attack. I make a living at the gunshows/tradeshows, how be it a part time income.I like to use Jesus in all things as a model for following after, even when I fall way short.

Luk 13:31\t \tThe same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

Luk 13:32\t \tAnd he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third [day] I shall be perfected.

Luk 13:33\t \tNevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Luk 13:34\t¶\tO Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Jesus knew the political climate and times in which He
lived but did not let that distract Him from His mission. He also knew the political leader of His day and what that leader stood for."Tell that fox", that wasn't a compliment, however without being distracted and at the same time telling the truth, He left us an example of how we are to conduct ourselves.No doubt that the religious leaders of His time had hoped for a different result. I enjoyed the article by bro.Strom and it was a timely reminder to me to be on my guard.

It seems to me that we are fast entering into an era in which all the things people looked to to enhance their well-being and security are fast being taken away.

Many liked to own guns for self-protection - but I would guess they rarely had opportunities to use it for such.

For many years we had access to medical services to cure whatever ails us. Today it is becoming beyond the reach of many - too expensive.

Since these props are being removed what is a body to do? Would it not cause us to become more dependent upon the LORD for our well-being? Would this not end up being a blessing in disguise for the Believer?

If one becomes ill and would approach illness as directed in James 5 what would it do to our faith? The LORD may direct us to things we have on the shelf one can use, like 1Tim.5 tells us; He could heal; or show us things we need to change to facilitate healing; or He could just take us Home which would not be all that bad, either. It would be hard to learn to trust the LORD totally for our health, would it not?

And about our physical safety. Do we feel so secure in our ability to protect ourselves that we do not even ask the LORD for his protection? I find this appalling...too bad not more feel vulnerable and are forced to trust Him.

So, maybe, just maybe, being deprived of these weapons that ensure one's well-being - be it medicine or weapons - will end up being good for us. Maybe it would be a good policy to start practicing now. Something to consider.

I said medicine is becoming too expensive...this is in reflection of my own opinion.

I find it appalling what many procedures cost, even if paid for by insurance or Medicare. At this moment in time I think I would forgo expensive procedures if the need would arise. We do not have the money in our pockets to pay for them. To ask insurance or Medicare to pay for it will cost someone else and taxes are high enough as it is. And you will still end up dying - sometime.

While cost is a great motivator in getting me to rethink medical procedures, I am seeing how the LORD would rather be our Healer. The solutions he offers are superior - sure one may have to look to Him for added grace to live, but is that bad?

Let us consider something else. In my dad's family heart problems are common. My paternal grandparents died from heart problems (d. in 1946 and 1955). Many of their children had it, too, but they took meds, lived longer only to succumb to Alzheimers. I think it would have been better to die younger and escape Alzheimers.

Modern medicine is not all it is cranked up to be, IMHO. It promises much but its delivery is troublesome, at times.

May we learn to look to the LORD for our security and well-being.

But what will one do when tbe government declares martial law. And personal ownership of guns is outlawed. Will one fight it out with a BATF tac team. The outcome is predictable. Do Ruby Ridge and WACO ring a bill.

people dont talk like this anymore, but i do. i would rather be dead than live under a tyranical government. "give me liberty or give me death" used to mean sumthin in this country. it was a born again believer who originally uttered those words in colonial america. most things are not worth dying for, but some things are. at least to sum people. most people, including christians, would rather let evil reign upon the earth than take a stand and oppose it.

Although I admire the founding fathers of these United States, I do not want to make statements that would by default accuse those precious early saints of cowardice or indifference. They are our fathers in the faith.

We must not forget that those early martyrs chose not to fight back. They could have organized and resisted. I hope we are not too quick to criticize their decisions. They knew women were being tortured and brutally murdered by a demonically driven government. T

They chose to die rather than fight, and they were liberated and crowned at the same time.

Stephen died a horrific death, and only one man stood up for him - The Risen Lord and He did not choose to intervene.

makrothumia

i would never fight back when persecuted 4 my faith. i have been in situations where i have been persecuted, several times physically. but against a tyrannical government i will stand and fight. there is a difference. i would gladly give my life to see another's saved, and so others may live in freedom. i believe that is what a christian does.

well my twenty cents worth ... For what it is worth is - i believe the bible in the new testament teaches "non- resistance" i.e turn to him that smote you the other side of the cheek. i.e Jesus said to Peter "put away thy sword all those who live by the sword - shall die by the sword" Not only that but when the disciples wanted to call down fire on those who did not recieve Jesus ...Jesus responds with the words " you know NOT what manner of Spirit ye are of" " For the Son of man came to save lives - NOT DESTROY them" so for me it's rather clear cut and (cut and dried) and on the flip side to I would suppose ( and I am just throwing this out there) martyrs wouldn't be Martyrs - if they resisted and fought back.

Furthermore the early apostles were flogged and beaten and imprisoned and didn't fight back ( correct ) ? Evidently Peter has put away his sword now and just submits to the punishment meted out to him ( regardless of how unjust it was or seemed ) Peter seems to practice and invoke "non-resistance" ( and for the record there's a form of submission not many have perhaps considered or thought of)

Anyway I know the gun issue is a big one in America. In Australia herewe have must stricter and tighter gun control laws - and in effect only allow high powered rifles to be obtained and kept for "certain purposes" for example farmers who need to protect there crops from wild animals and snakes etc etc. all that kind of thing:

In Australia we have been following the gun law debate/ controversy in America with some interest -and for the most part we are amazed at how easy it is to own and purchase these potentially "life taking" weapons:

The controls in place seem to quite relaxed without too much legislation or red tape in place to buy and own a Gun - this in spite of recent gun massacres and senseless slaughters:

And funny enough if tragedy strikes again in relation to mass shootings of innocent lives : the more people resolve to OWN a gun and affirm there right to protect themselves and there loved ones.

I for one to some degree can understand the non Christian view on this controversy and why unbelievers would defend there right to own a weapon of sorts. But for a believer, a Christian, the churched. I think we need to go back to basics and know what the sermon on the mount teaches:

I think I will post part of my earlier post.

For me it comes down to Bible translation

But if What John is saying is what the New American Standard and most other modern translations translates, that What John was saying to the soldiers that came to his baptism is that (NASB)Luke 3:14 "Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”
Than the message of the kingdom is not as radical as what we would conclude as we would if he was telling the soldiers do violence to no man, the old testament law of shall not kill still contains Exemptions which would include military combatant participation and self defence.

EX. ch 22 v 2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.

One cannot logicaly make a case for nonresistance ,If John was just telling the soldiers “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.” Because if this is all he was telling them, when they asked him what they should do, than John was endorsing combatant status by not explicitly speaking against it.

edit for clarity

you took the words right out of my mouth Skeptic. Again this is not about our christian liberty. Evil triumphs because good men do nothing when it is in their power to stop evil men.

It is possible to do two things at one time. We can protect our liberty and preach the gospel too. I agree that without a revival in this land we will lose those freedoms and our founding fathers recognised that without a moral people our country would collapse.

I believe there is a diffrence between fighting for "christian" rights and the right for others to live.
Will Christians stand idely by when the elderly are taken to camps to be exterminated? Will we stand by if some nationality is exterminated just because of that nationality? Millions of people have died by their governments hand not because they were christian but they stood in the way of a tyranical government.

It is one thing to turn the other cheek when it is you who are being persecuted, but it quite another when it is more convienent to stand and watch.

I will not stand by and watch our freedom be systematically destroyed. I will fight with all that is in me, by God's grace, evil where ever I see it. If we get to the point where the military is coming to our door to collect my defense rifle it will be because we did not fight now.

Go back to the sermon on the mount and new covenant ...new testament times which is a time of (grace and mercy) I thought:

Go back to the sermon on the mount:

You have heard it ...said ...of OLD TIME

But NOW I say unto you:

Dost thou quarrel with the words of the master???

Of course I speak of doing violence and being physically aggressive:

Wasn't it John the baptist who said to (the soldiers) who wanted to know there position ... Who John then replied to " DO Violence to no man"

This was before the sermon on the mount was even given....

Then Jesus whom we all claim to follow comes on the scene and says in effect okay it was once said " an eye for an eye", and a tooth for a tooth;
But I say to you " that you resist NOT evil

His words not mine:

Take it up with Jesus - if you disagree?

Of course I'm not suggesting passivity and not speaking up for values and issues of righteousness - and being a voice piece for the Good, being a moral conscience in society .... I support that view totally !!!!!

Obviously if you are a soldier or police officer ( Christian or non) you are called in the line of duty to serve and PROTECt your community, uphold the law, fight evil and evil doers, And take the appropriate action or force needed to reign in crime.

We still in a imperfect world with people who do wrong things:

The flip side without contradiction is god has ordained the higher powers
(Romans chap 13:1-3 for rulers are NOT a terror to good works? Answer Obviously not ... But to the evil!!!

Law and order must still be upheld - i agree

But he has ordained and set up the right authorities to deal with crime, lawlessness and even war ( the armed forces)

My point was and is - Christians should not respond to "being wronged" by resorting to physical aggression or returning violence with violence ( my view) by I still think its a biblical one

This is how I read my bible anyway ( peace to you all) anyway

In Jesus name: amen!

Obviously if you are a soldier or police officer ( Christian or non) you are called in the line of duty to serve and PROTECt your community, uphold the law, fight evil and evil doers, And take the appropriate action or force needed to reign in crime.

We still live in an imperfect world with people, who do the wrong thing:

The flip side without contradiction is God has ordained the higher powers that be - as is articulated skillfully to us by Paul in the book of Romans
(Romans chap 13:1-3 for rulers are NOT a terror to good works? Answer Obviously not ... But to the evil!!!

Law and order must still be upheld - i agree

But he has ordained and set up the right authorities to deal with crime, lawlessness and even war ( the armed forces)

My point was and is - Christians should not respond to "being wronged" by resorting to physical aggression or returning violence with violence ( my view) by I still think its a biblical one

This is how I read my bible anyway ( peace to you all) anyway

In Jesus name: amen!

Hi sonofthunder

sonofthunder wrote //But he has ordained and set up the right authorities to deal with crime, lawlessness and even war ( the armed forces)//

Are Christians supposed to fill these positiones ??
It is an area that I wrestle with.

edit spelling

One last thing (word) and I am done! Because I have more than put my views across and had my say and it's time for others to say there piece:

When " Christian" lobbyist and minority groups ( or majority groups) take to the streets in protest say for instance against abortion or same sex marriages ... I'm NOT going to say necessarily if it is an organized legal street march and protest - and no laws are broken and no violence is done and no business premises are trespassed upon or against ( forced entry)

Then i personally have no problem that This is in any way is wrong. Christians can be a voice and a moral conscience in society! but I feel strongly the other way when believers become physically aggressive and abuse police officers and get thrown into police wagons for being a public nuisance ( on the day)

I fail to see how this is good? And glorifies God? And adorns the Christian faith and its message of peacemakers - and sets an example for others.

Stop roping me in. Lol lol

Personally I think that is a matter of conscience and of personal circumstances brother.

Because again God has literally ordained the higher powers that be

So if fighting crime from that perspective is wrong? Why would God institute or be "behind" these authorities that protect and serve

Thank god for the force I say !!!

But if it's a trick question - a Christian police officer has to resort to violence mine reply would be ... Yes ...but look at the circumstances and context?

He is fighting crime, evil, lawbreakers, anarchy etcetera

Jesus also said this: " agree quickly with your adversary" and why?
Lest he bring you to the magistrate and before a judge, and the judge hands you over the officer to be sent, and thrown into jail. Jesus went on to say ....expect not to come out ... Until ....you have done your time!

Furthermore Jesus forgave the dying thief (correct)? However he still could not deliver him from the circumstances of his crime and the sentence it carried - which was (death)

Hope this helps

Bye

Hi sonofthunder

sonofthunder wrote ///But if it's a trick question///

No not a trick just struggling on this issue in that I can see both sides,

I personaly am leaning and have been a while toward nonresistance and anti Just war for the Christian, But It is not an easy change from my previous indoctrination, it even effects my dreams as I struggle between self defense and completely depending on Gods protection.

I find myself being able to both relate and disagree with almost every post on this thread

Amrkelly, I am struggling to know how to answer your comment.
let me just say that you are extreemly mistaken.

My turn to stand down.
In Christ,
Tim

To maintain policies... shouldn't the topic of "guns" fall into the same category as "politics" and NOT be a topic of discussion on this forum??

Evil does not exist within a gun. It exists in the minds and hearts of those who pull the trigger for evil purposes.

When I read the question "DO CHRISTIANS LOVE GUNS?. I think need has nothing to do with the love of guns. Lets ask why do you need to go to church, worship God, speak out against the government, read or write what ever you feel like reading or writing? You don't need to do any of these things but it is our RIGHT to do these things if we choose to do them. We are citizens, not subjects, not slaves, we do not serve those that we vote to represent us. It is written that all men are created equal, the right to own a gun insures that equality does not get taken away. So the next time someone asks "why do you feel the need to own a gun?", my answer will always be it is my RIGHT to do so.

 shouldn't the topic of "guns" fall into the same category as "politics"

Hi dspk,

In a very real sense, you make a good observation. It would be wise to let go of this present thread here at SI.

Your question also points out us an interesting riddle for me to personally work out in my own conscience: Should Christians be concerned with political issues?

I want to minimize interaction with the political machine, an apparatus whose only purpose is to consume resources and expand at all costs. This inevitable expansion is what presents me with the riddle....as politics expands into every area of our lives, every area of our lives becomes a political issue!

This riddle can be expressed as a syllogism:

All social issues are political issues.

All children are a social issue.

Hence, my children are a political issue.

Of course I'm using children as an example, because it is a more universal example, but you can substitute just about anything for children in that example.

So, what is the answer to this riddle?

Well, I don't really know.

However, this riddle is also a source of understanding, empathy, and even compassion for brethren with different political viewpoints. I respect that a man or woman must live with their own conscience, and not mine.

Personal consciences aside, as far as SI is concerned, we should strive to keep political ideas out of our discussions or at least to a minimum as best we can. Monitoring our own contributions is kind of like weeding our garden...we probably shouldn't presume to weed our neighbors garden without permission, but we should make it a frequent policy to weed our own!

When it comes to politics, Sermon Index is a "Gun-Free Zone."

Thanks,

MC