Benny Hinn

It is no suprise to me to see another expose on his ministry. This is the 3rd expose I have seen on him. What is amazing is that people still think he is credible and give there money to him.It time for judgement to begin with the house of God.... and as Jeremiah said "every one is greedy for gain from the priest to the prophet".The sad thing about it all is that this is the image of christianity that is out there for the world to see. This is what the world identifies with the name christian, greed and lies. The even greater tragedy is the numerous pastors and church leaders that support him and some how do not see what is going on. It makes me think back to the words of Leonard Ravenhill when he said something to the effect of "that all churches should have their tax exempt status removed, that way we would really know who was in it for the right reasons".

as watchman of God we must pray that these men turn from their wickedness to the reality of Christ. matthew 7 describing jesus' words on judgment day 'i never knew you' will always put the fear of God in me. we must weep for such men as he is because it is because of ministries as these that judgment is at the door. Read Ezekiel 16:49 as to the real reason God judged Sodom and Gomorrah. Most think it's because of sexual immorality. That may have been part of it - but in Ezekiel it states that it was because of self-consumption, holding back from the needy and idleness.

This expose thing is a 2 sided coin too, Yes it brings reproach to the real body of Christ. The other side is the Call by the secular world to tax the Church eventually and then slap restrictions on it... Many see those days coming when the Gov starts to outlaw the Church or restrict so much that it is hard for poor peeps to start a church...Kind of like all the massive corporations muscling out the small business person.Anyhow food fer thought.

It's pious enough to say that judgement begins with the house of God. Now I must realize that I am that house where the Spirit indwells. I certainly do not look forward to the day when I have to answer for the money entrusted to my care. After watching a few minutes of Dateline I have a better idea of what my third world brothers and sisters must think of me. What must I do to make striaght the way of the Lord in this country? Why don't I follow John the baptist's advice: "He who has two shirts, let him give one to him who has none.And he who has food, let him do likewise."Have mercy and forgive my sins Lord.MC

...I have a better idea of what my third world brothers and sisters must think of me.Why don't I follow John the baptist's advice: "He who has two shirts, let him give one to him who has none.And he who has food, let him do likewise."Dear brother, I live in a third world country, and I too struggle with giving. I too have questionable spending habits.Obviously we live in very different worlds, and the wealth of America, plainly put is amazing from my perspective. But having less doesn't excuse my selfish heart.May I continually live by this example:And now, brothers, we want you to know about the grace that God has given the Macedonian churches. Out of the most severe trial, their overflowing joy and their extreme poverty welled up in rich generosity. For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints. 2Cor 8:1-4This is totally off-thread but can someone help with a biblical perspective of our responsibility to the poor.I've often heard from the people around me that giving alms to the poor (we have thousands of street people and AIDS orphans) keeps them on the streets, that it's better to support homes. That's true, but there aren't enough homes...I read 'Rich Christians in an age of hunger", it illustrated the reality of the situation, but I still don't have solid ground to stand on regarding the poor.In God's love,Richard

I just had a thought, Imagine for minute if someone like Benny Hinn came out honestly and repented of some of the things he has done. Just think what might happen to the landscape of christianity. I don't usually post but just a thought. I recon it will be more of a impact than we would think. Something to pray about.

It always breaks my heart to see preachers who desire to live as kings and princes here on earth...where they get their money from the poor.Benny Hinn would do well to reread the Word of God in order to see what happens when you "love this world and the things of this world..." Unfortunately, they remind me of the servant who requested something in return for a miracle. How sad.But this "health/wealth" doctrine is even more dangerous than the lifestyle that Hinn lives. In fact, its downright "cultish."

Always good to hear from you brother, will gladly sidestep the exhaustive and exhausting topic here (a general search through the archives giving much ink to this already) and bring this forth for some thought on your question:This is totally off-thread but can someone help with a biblical perspective of our responsibility to the poor.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Oswald was used to the criticism of his family and friends, particularly in the area of money. He believed that Jesus’ words, “Give to everyone who asks,” meant exactly that. One evening, walking back to his lodgings after conducting a League meeting, he was accosted by a drunken man asking for money. Chambers listened intently to the man’s story, then told him, “Man, I believe your story is all lies, but my Master tells me to give to everyone that asks, so there is my last shilling.” After putting the coin into the man’s hand, Chambers noticed that it was not a shilling but half a crown worth two and a half times more. It didn’t matter. “There you are,” he told the man, “the Lord bless you.”When Oswald’s hostess heard this story, she chided him for being foolish. “I believe beggars are sent to test our faith,” Chambers replied, nonplused. “My duty is plain—to obey the command of God and give to everyone that asks. What the recipient may do with it is not my concern.” As the woman shook her head in disbelief, Oswald added with a twinkle, “Besides, the Lord always gives double for all I give away.” The next morning Chambers received a letter enclosing a gift from a person who was bedridden and could not come to hear him preach. The gift was three times what he had given the drunken man the night before.Chambers, O. 1958; 2002. Abandoned to God. Marshall Morgan and Scott

One of my favorite quotes, and, IMO, 100% true, which is why I don't, as a rule, trust politicians. :-x

KrispyKrittr wrote:Why does all of this flap over Benny Hinn surprise anyone?I have no idea, we must be very bored!

My hope in this thread that we will begin to examine our own hearts in regards to money.I'm reading a book entitled "Rhees Howell Intercessor" and in his life the Holy Spirit asked Rhees "Are you an owner or a steward?" I believe that most of us (including myself) are owners, rather than stewards. A steward merely does what the owner (God) wants while an owner controls it himself. Who controls our finances?Although we may not be "fleecing the sheep," we may be insisting on having it our way, rather than His way.I pray that the body of Christ may become stewards rather than owners, so that the name of Jesus be lifted up.

i posted my thoughts on this over on 4am's thread ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4813&forum=35But the thing that always gets me about a few of the big named TV folk is that you can actually see their pride, how they literally wear it (which i might add often shows thru most in their custom wardrobes) ... Another guy that i'm concerned about is the up and coming Bishop Eddie L. Long ... i'm praying for both men, amongst so many others in the 5 fold ministry ... It's like the closing words of Al Pacino's characterization of the devil in "The Devil's Advocate ... "Vanity ... definitely my favorite sin" ... We all got to be so careful of that one!

Just a quick note on Benny Hinn!I watch him at the end of one of his talks and was appalled at the way he pushed people around apprantly in the name of "Jesus" (I hate using the name of Jesus in the same text as Benny Hinn.) It was horrible and there was a nasty spirit working it really got to me! Sorry for ranting!!!It is just evil!!

In reference to Benny Hinn I would suggest you read these verses they might be able to relax your spirit about him.Phl 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons: Phl 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Phl 1:3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, Phl 1:4 always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, Phl 1:5 in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. Phl 1:6 {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. Phl 1:7 For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me. Phl 1:8 For God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. Phl 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, Phl 1:10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; Phl 1:11 having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which {comes} through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. Phl 1:12 Now I want you to know, brethren, that my circumstances have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel, Phl 1:13 so that my imprisonment in {the cause of} Christ has become well known throughout the whole praetorian guard and to everyone else, Phl 1:14 and that most of the brethren, trusting in the Lord because of my imprisonment, have far more courage to speak the word of God without fear. Phl 1:15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ even from envy and strife, but some also from good will; Phl 1:16 the latter {do it} out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel; Phl 1:17 the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives, thinking to cause me distress in my imprisonment. Phl 1:18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,

I am not Pro or Con Benny Hinn, I am not here to Judge and anyone that speaks bad about anyone period is Judging them don't the word say something about Judging? He exhorted us to mark and avoid ANYONE who comes to us with a false gospel.This is correct but as a Christian we should know to do this it is written in the Word Of God.But has he He exhorted us to mark and and spread our opinions to others? To me that would be doing Gods job and judging him Judge not and be not Judged. Me, I will leave Benny Hinn up to God and flip the channel if I feel he cannot minister to me personally, because I am no better than him if I judge him, a sin is a sin is a sin, or did God put sin on different levels?

Gideons wrote: Who controls our finances?Although we may not be "fleecing the sheep," we may be insisting on having it our way, rather than His way.I pray that the body of Christ may become stewards rather than owners, so that the name of Jesus be lifted up.I couldn't agree with you more, my friend, God showed me the past few months that when I try to "own" all I really do is reveal what a terrible financial steward I really am and have been. By His grace things are chaging though. He's the owner and He gracious and patient in teaching me.

I know a debate like this could go on forever, so I will rest my case with this below and say no more it will only lead to unrest in my spirit:It is such "Legalistic" Christianity that lead Christians to kill more people than any other religious group in history.Fanatical Christians like Adolph Hitler are the perfect example of legalistic men who took the words of the Bible to the extreme, and committed unthinkable evil in the name of that warped belief.Jesus died for our sins, and simply said that all those who believe in me shall have salvation!. End of story.Nothing more need be said. Legalistic additions and warnings only distort the meaning of his simple words.

Well, A judge, I am not.But I am to be a Fruit Inspector!This whole mess makes me angry, I fear for his Soul.But more importantly, all the thousands that put their faith in man.

wow! Do you know what a Christian is?? Hitler a Christian!!! WOW :-?

It's not that Hitler held himself out to be a Christian that's troublesome to me, which he was not but that the "church" had no discernment and the church accepted him with open arms until it was too late.I'm not drawing comparisons between Bush and Hitler but I am suggesting that the level of discernment in the church of Jesus Christ is lacking at least here in the United States. Here's a verse that was quickened to me a couple of days ago on this topic Hosea 9:7 The days of punishment are coming, the days of reckoning are at hand. Let Israel know this. Because your sins are so many and your hostility so great, the prophet is considered a fool, the inspired man a maniac.Such is the hour of time in which we're living.

But more importantly, all the thousands that put their faith in man. and therein lies the problem. If there is one thing each of us can teach a new convert it should be this: do not ever, ever, ever put an inordinate amount of faith in man. Follow after the Lord. He alone is perfect and worthy to be elevated. Yes, there are many Godly examples among men, but when we elevate man to a place that God does not, we set ourselves up to be disappointed----either due to their own human weaknesses/sin or our own unrealistic expectations...........add to this the fact that there are many wolves among the sheep.......In Him, Cindy :-)

What do you think Paul the Apostle would have to say to Benny Hinn? I'm not totally certain, but I am almost convinced that his words wouldn't be "Way to go, Benny!"

Doesnt sound to me like the church embraced Hitler at all.Lets get our facts straight.If you get 'all' the facts straight you would find that both positions are true. It is a sad fact that Lutheranism had a long history of antisemitism stemming from Luther himself. Some church people and non-church people were incredibly courageous in the way they lived, and some church and some non-church people were conformed by the 'world' in which they lived.To this day I am not sure whether Bonhoeffer was a political martyr or a christian one.

First Hinn, then Luther, and now Bonhoeffer....Where have all the heroes gone? :-P

Krispy K !?Don't tell me I have to explain the definition of humor to you of all people. Alright then.... hu·mor1.\tThe quality that makes something laughable or amusing;funniness:"Krispy could not see the humor of comparing Hinn to Luther and Bonhoeffer."2.\tThat which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: "Krispy enjoys the humor of Larknews.com"3.\tAn often temporary state of mind; a mood: "However, when it comes to Benny Hinn, Krispy is in no humor to laugh."4. A person's characteristic disposition or temperament: "In fact, when Benny Hinns' name is mentioned, Krispy becomes a man of sullen humor." ;-)MC

If Benny repented earnestly would we receive him into the body? Do we receive everyone with open arms who has repented and been forgiven by God?

Jesus died for our sins, and simply said that all those who believe in me shall have salvation!. End of story.True, but we are also supposed to identify those who live in Christ vs those who don't and then move in the spirit as we are led.

I have a question what is judgement? it seems that many of us equate that to pointing out what is wrong with something. that is not judging, that is pointing out a problem. isn't judging not only pointing out that problem but also prescribing a punishment suitable for it?

I think NT "judgment" is "handing that man over to Satan that he be taught not to blaspheme"Of course, that was in a time where the church was actually a refuge from the world and the devil...now many are actually run by those 2. :-(

Hi Brethren,I have read this “Benny Hinn” thread and I think it has the longest record of replies and please brethren I beg you in the Lord’s name to stop it right here for on my part I see nothing in it that administers grace to the reader,instead, we are being led more and more to sin by our words. I think this is a topic to pray more than to write and discuss. With whose name is Benny connected in the unbelieving world? And who is gaining by the “fall” of Benny? Is it God? Is it us his brothers and sisters? is the church? Or is it the Kingdom of the darkness?! As for God, he is not pleased and if you keep silent and listen to your spirit you can feel it deep down there and we should not face this with easy spirit as to make humors out of it. If the many words we posted on this forum were directed to God in prayer some effect could have been done to the advancement of the kingdom of God and to the shame of the enemy and ofcourse to the uplifting of Benny from his position ( if at all what we say about him is what God says about him) If Benny was among us as a member of this forum, we could have helped him by our words but we are saying this behind him after all! And to whose edification are we saying it? Is it to notify other brothers and sisters? I think we have more than enough knowledge that we are trespassing! Please read the following taken from John Wesley’s sermon I think it will help all of us! Please understand me, I am writing this because I love you and if God used my words to keep all of us from stumbling and sinning against God!Extracted from John Wesley's sermon “ THE CURE OF EVIL SPEAKING”"Speak evil of no man," says the great Apostle: -- As plain a command as, "Thou shalt do no murder." But who, even among Christians, regards this command? Yea, how few are there that so much as understand it? What is evil-speaking? It is not, as some suppose, the same with lying or slandering. All a man says may be as true as the Bible; and yet the saying of it is evil-speaking. For evil-speaking is neither more nor less than speaking evil of an absent person; relating something evil, which was really done or said by one that is not present when it is related. Suppose, having seen a man drunk, or heard him curse or swear, I tell this when he is absent; it is evil-speaking. In our language this is also, by an extremely proper name, termed backbiting. Nor is there any material difference between this and what we usually style tale-bearing. If the tale be delivered in a soft and quiet manner (perhaps with expressions of good-will to the person, and of hope that things may not be quite so bad,) then we call it whispering. But in whatever manner it be done, the thing is the same; -- the same in substance, if not in circumstance. Still it is evil-speaking; still this command, "Speak evil of no man," is trampled under foot; if we relate to another the fault of a third person, when he is not present to answer for himself. “ ............................................Your Sis. Mekdes

I honestly love Benny Hinn. If you have ever been to one of his crusades or even read one of his books, you would know how much the Spirit of God has touched his life. I consider it a priviledge and a blessing to give to Benny Hinn ministries to see lives and souls come to Christ all over the world. Jesus said that a prophet is not without honor except in his own country, and I think this is especially true in America. The millions who have given their lives to Christ and who have gotten healed (by the power of God Almighty and not by the power of man as Benny points out every time the Holy Spirit moves) through his ministry attest to his legitimate calling. Not only does he give glory to God, he points out that the single greatest miracle in the world isn't healing--it is salvation. I know friends who have given their lives at Benny Hinn crusades--friends who have hearts for God now and love the Lord; genuine conversion. I also know people--real flesh and blood people--who have received their healing at his services. I have watched as people who couldn't hear at all wept profusely (you can tell what is emotion and what is life-changing weeping) could suddenly hear because God opened their ears. I suppose I would consider Benny Hinn a false prophet if he claimed it was him doing the healings, but he doesn't. He gives all the glory and the honor to the true healer, Jesus Christ. I do thank God for the ministry of Benny Hinn and for how much he is doing to further the name of Christ throughout the entire world.Lastly, I just want to say that I make far less money right now than most "poor" people I know in America. Even so, I love giving to the work of God, in whatever He is doing around the world and it's honestly far from my heart to think that Benny Hinn is bilking us "poor" folks out of any George Washington's. Rather, I consider it a priviledge that God would entrust me with money to be able to pour out finances (do you know how much even one crusade costs?) to see souls saved. Furthermore, God said that if you even so much as give a glass of water to a prophet, you will receive a prophet's reward, and if some of my money goes to providing a lavish place for Benny Hinn and his guests to stay at, then I praise God for that; that they can find an oasis to seek God's face in the countries they stay at. I hope and I pray that God continues to bless his servant extravantly.Check this out if you're interested:http://www.thetruthline.com/andhttp://www.thetruthline.com/dateline.cfmGod's blessings to you all,Jordan

bjladd wrote:I honestly love Benny Hinn. Thankyou for your honesty, you are really part of a minority here that would admit to such. Welcome to the forum.Blessings,

Thanks for welcoming me. One thing is for sure: my faith rests in Jesus Christ and in Him alone and not in any other person at all. That said, I recognize that He has chosen to use people to do glorious things for His kingdom (i.e. "greater works than these you will do"), and my prayer is that God raises up more men like Benny Hinn who have a heart for reaching the lost in the world.

bjladd, I warn you not to become discouraged upon the revelation that GOD will reveal to you about the Man Benny Hinn.Seek the Truth and you will find it, Test the Spirits by the Word.Beware of False Prophets.Trust only Him our LORD JESUS.

Hi Jordan,First hope you do get opportunity to check out all the resources available here, especially the sermons, they will go a long way in challenging you in this walk as they have mine.Secondly will echo the sentiments earlier here not to be discouraged by the challenges that will ultimately come your way if you want to defend this man's ministry.What you must realize is that there are more than a few of us who have been deeply affected by this man's ministry.And that is unfortunately in the wrong manner. Those of us who speak the loudest are not out to discredit anyone and some of us are not just pointing out the error we see but have actually experienced as former 'followers' for lack of a better term of the man and his ministry.The challenge for you brother is to lay aside whatever preconceived notions you may have and perhaps pause and consider what is at the heart of those who oppose and have serious concerns about all that goes on with this ministry. At one point I had to do the same and like yourself originally was very defensive until I had to be honest enough to consider just why the outcry from some. Please, do a search here on Benny Hinn, there are a multiple pages to go through about concerns that many are being misled.To even see this come up once again is always a grievous thing as it seems to be something that is just waiting to be beaten into the ground over and over again. Tired of talking about it, tired of the division it always seems to bring, the misconstruing of motives, the 'bashing' that it appears to be on the surface. Wish to God it would just go away.But wishing that the wolves would leave the sheep alone will never stop them from decimating the flock. They have to be driven out. And if they are wearing sheep's clothing, they must be exposed. It is not something to relish, in fact even to write this goes against what could better be discussed around here, it's an effort to not just leave well enough alone. But being that as it may, am compelled nonetheless. Glad you are here and do hope again that you may find much to grow in this walk through all that is available here. Much of what passes for modern day Christianity is challenged through the propensity towards the older saints that are represented here. In due time think that by hearing what Christianity was considered just some 30-40 years ago compared to what it now is considered to be would prove to be an eye opening experience. That it may help you in this regard.As to the links you brought forth will echo the earlier comments that these are not surprising, being that they were generated by his own ministry. A couple from the letter to Mr. Hinns supporters;"The media uses distortions and incomplete truths to support its preconceived ideas, and one of their favorite targets is money."That is a very peculiar statement considering that this is exactly what he himself does. To this day still receive his pleas for 'sowing seed' though I begged off his membership role and asked them to stop sending anything from their ministry years ago. Why is that? Because this is big business and these things are automated just like any other advertising business. Most certainly one of his favorite targets is money, yours, mine, the unsuspecting, all cloaked in Christian terminology and all for supposedly 'bring more souls into the kingdom'. As a particular challenge, does it not seem just a bit odd that a ministry to say the persecuted church generates far less giving than to a ministry that promotes healing and prosperity?"In response to the biased media, I created this Web site www.thetruthline.com especially for my partners to hear the truth straight from me."For all the effort it is sad to say that the truth is still not forth coming. Within those pages the question of external accountability is cleverly dodged by bringing in his own firms, not someone completely outside his organization. It becomes a cat and mouse game to play off the criticisms that may come one way or the other. The question is, what has he got to hide? Big business have certain rules of conduct and criteria that they must submit to, outside auditors and certifications that prove whether or not they are trustworthy in their financial dealings. Being that ministries have been given some latitude and different guidelines to operate under shouldn't exempt them from outside scrutiny, if anything ought they to be even more fort right and upfront than the rest of the world?This is only the tip of the iceberg, the financial realm. That Christianity has become big business in the first place in many ministries is only telling of a far greater problem, that which they are selling.

First question I would ask is this... who was Jesus speaking to? Was it the Apostles, or to Christians of all ages? Context is very important.Krispydo you think that we have not been empowered to do greater things by the power of the Holy spirit than Christ did? If so then what purpose would the spirit serve if not to empower us to do the big thins God expects?

KrispyKrittr wrote:I believe the Apostles were given power from on High in order to work miracles as Christ did... and more so... so as to lend legitimacy to their message.Hello my fiesty friend, to use your same mantra, where is the evidence for that position?Which were they disciples or Apostles? Also it is interesting to note when they took Matthais on in Judas' place: For,” said Peter, “it is written in the book of Psalms, “ ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’[d] and, “ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’[e] 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.” 23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. This fellow was'nt part of the original twelve, but here he is being instated in the position of apostle. If Jesus was only talking to the twelve apostles, how could Matthias act in that position. They would had to have taken him aside and said, Hey Matt, you remember when Jesus said that stuff about healing, you can do it now. He as a disciple must have heard the same thing that the apostles heard for him to be able to act in the role/function of apostle. So it was'nt the fact that these disciples had any special power, but in being with Jesus they would do the things that an apostle does, because of what he wanted to build.

That indeed is a good question Krispy, where ARE all the bigger miracles??? It would behoove us to look at our current situation. Those apostles who were empowered by the spirit did go out and do big things. We basically have to continue on that work and without the spirit it can't be done. There are a LOT more "Christians" today than before and if we were all empowered by the Holy spirit as the desciples were then we would not be in this sorry state. The Holy spirit never stopped moving, we moved away from it and placed other things in the stead of the spirit. That's why we don't hear of miracles as much. The original Christians were empowered by the Holy Spirit in a way that has yet to be matched ad the only thing keeping us from that is a reluctance on our part to take Hold of the spirit and do God's work. Also someone with a healing ministry which is empowered by the spirit MUST BE LEAD BY IT, not the other way around, in fact this pertains to ALL GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT. If God does not lead you via the spirit to go to children's hospital then you SHOULD NOT GO because that is abuse of the power that God has vested in you. We must also remember that the will of God can't be manipulated by us in any way. So if it does not fit with what we think it should be, we can't go to God and say "look here God, your plan sucks, here is my suggestion" which incidentally is a thing we do very opten in prayer, we give God suggestions on how to deal with things. God does as He pleases, not was we think He should, I mean who could go to heaven and counsel Him? What would that person say? The big problem with us Christians this day is we have forsaken the Holy spirit and the power to do God's work through it. We don't need the spirit so we don't seek it of God. If we did seek the spirit in earnest, there would be a doing of miracles. a turning to Christ and a display of God's power even greater than it was through the original 12. We just don't want that, or don't care to have it, we're content to play patty-cake with God and the time is fast-approaching when we will either have to get with God or suffer with the devil.

ZekeOyou know there is this article I got which says something to the effect of there were 12 original disciples/apostles but there are up to 22 or so people (including the 12) named apostles. check it out, you may have seen it.http://www.christiansteps.com/doctrine/apostles.html Christ also said to make disciples of all men did He not?So it was'nt the fact that these disciples had any special power, but in being with Jesus they would do the things that an apostle does, because of what he wanted to build.We have access to the very same power the apostles had, if we would just take hold of it, we would be able to do even GREATER things. I don't know about y'all but I'm gettin me some of that juice right there so God can empower me to do whatever it is He wants me to do.

Krispy, I am toasting you with my glass of green tea we agree on something I am totally with you on the below.:-P Sometimes that can be lost on a website where you cant hear my voice or see my face as you read my words.I received a private message from another member here who requested strongly that I stop speaking out against Benny Hinn's heresies so that unity among believers can be maintained. I won't do that... ever. Unity is not unity if it's simply me shutting up about what I believe is true in order to maintain some sort of false peace.

Hey, IRONMAN... I'm heading out in an hour or so to take my two oldest boys camping until Saturday. (before everyone stones me... we will have our own Good Friday service out in the wilderness!) We're gonna hike 3 miles back up into the Pisgah Forest (which borders the Blue Ridge & Smokey Mountain National Parks) not far from where we live. Have a wonderful Easter if I dont get on here before then.ok, what about steven who did pretty much the same thing as the original 12 apostles? I think that we intellectualize what is spiritual and that is a huge stumbling block for us. So the words apostolos from the greek may be defined as one thing or another in a different language but what is the spiritual meaning of the term? How does an apostle or disciple or prohpet fit into God's plan for all things? As for the annointing of the original 12, we have access to the SAME spirit do we not? The difference is that in the body of Christ their position/responsibility was to be there when Christ was on earth and do whatever He asked. Ours is to be here at this time continuing the work they started. The annointing is the same, it is from the same spirit, it is the responsibility that is different. Do have a good time out there in the boonies, I think I will take my daughter to th park on saturday. hey I have heard of smokey mountain, it's the name of a track on the gran turismo games, where is that exactly?

I received a private message from another member here who requested strongly that I stop speaking out against Benny Hinn's heresies so that unity among believers can be maintained. I won't do that... ever. Unity is not unity if it's simply me shutting up about what I believe is true in order to maintain some sort of false peace.AMEN, Christianity is not about political correctness, it's about righteousness and holiness and that can, believe it or not, be offensive...

I've read of Benny Hinn's "heresies;" heard the audio clips of him "growling" into a microphone, etc... I know the Benny Hinn/false prophet position quite well, actually. I've gone to all the websites exposing this ministry and bulleting a thousand different things this man has done... Well, all that to say, I'm not exactly a lamb caught in the clutches of this wolf. Now, some things that were done in this ministry, I don't at all believe were from God. But just because Hinn missed it once or twice, I don't fault him for that; I mean thank God, God Himself chose not to strike down David for murdering Uriah and sleeping with his wife. Furthermore, *I* have missed it in the Spirit. I've thought something was God and wasn't and God showed me the error of my ways and brought me back to Him. I remember one time, I prophecied to someone and said, "God has no love for you, you worker of iniquity." Was I wrong? YOU BETCHA! And as soon as God told me, I went up to that person and asked for his forgiveness. I was on a 10 day fast at the time and God was using me powerfully--so powerfully that I totally missed him I thought I was *so* powerful. Now, the question is: does God still use people after they miss him? By the Bible, he most certainly does! Peter cursed at a girl denying his affiliation with Jesus. If we lived at that time and were standing around when he did that, we would be so prone to criticize everything Peter did after the Spirit came because he chose to sin that one time. "What? Yeah, but Peter cursed and denied Jesus, I heard him--he even used the "f" word; he's a blasphemer." We're just like that when God uses someone mightily in the realm of the supernatural. I thank God He dealt with *me* as graciously as he did when my heart wasn't right. And in the end, I believe Benny Hinn has truly repented for the things he's said that he believed was from God. When I see him, I can't help but want as close a relationship with the Lord as he has. Thank God for grace.Now about Benny Hinn being a false prophet--God had a problem with false prophets who took people's hearts away from the living God, preaching messages born from their own imaginations that only brought superficial healing to the people and all for reasons of massive popularity and importance. Even in Benny Hinn's most dubious assertions, I still find in them a sincere heart who truly believes He's hearing from heaven and just happened to miss it (like my example above). And because of that heart, God has rebuked him and corrected him and taught him and loved him when he was wrong and I believe He has absolutely used Benny Hinn to touch the world for Christ. Now, let's really be honest with ourselves and with Benny Hinn--his words are saturated with things that have brought people into a closer relationship with him. I myself have been powerfully impacted by his ministry; not at all that I exalt Benny Hinn or feel like I'm at all a follower of Benny Hinn--but he has certainly brought me closer to the Lord I love and for that reason alone I love him. He's taught me to seek the Father with all my heart and to wait on Him and for the presence of His Spirit. And God came!!! The Holy Spirit's presence in my life and my fellowship with God in my quiet times can't compare with anything in this life. Really, no rebuttal I hear on this forum will change my love for Benny Hinn because I have grown closer to Jesus through his teachings (which were from the Holy Spirit, anyway).Lastly, I just wanted to say that a great number (but not all) of the "heresies" that are so often cited are usually things Hinn has said totally taken out of context. Furthermore, I saw this picture of Kathryn Kuhlman "exposed" as the witch she "really was." In all honesty, it was just a photo taken at the wrong angle and with certain shadows and lines emphasized. In like manner, that's how I consider many attacks against him to be; just smoke and mirrors and a good deal of bad lighting. Also, it's not just Christian apologists who adamantly disagree with Hinn; there are a great number of secular people who truly hate, mock, and despise him. If these people (who are most definitely unbelievers) agree with the Christians, I have to wonder why the kingdom of darkness would be that dumb.Well, that's more than my 2 cents worth. I love you all in Christ and if we all have to get to heaven to see things as God sees them, then so be it. I won't mind being surprised or even finding I was wrong about Benny Hinn because what really matters is Jesus and Him alone. I know if I seek the Lord's heart and the Lord's will and the mind of Christ, that He will be faithful to show me the truth. And I thank Him for that. God bless you all, and may God give us all His wisdom and His ears and His eyes to hear and to see Him and Him alone.(Note: As far as the finances go, I'm really inclined to giving Benny Hinn the benefit of the doubt--regardless of if he makes it known publically or not.)

In these Last moments of time there will come a great falling away.Forsake all those who exalt themselves and use the Name of Christ to shear the Sheep.Lastly Ask GOD our LORD JESUS to show you the Truth and HE will.PS. Pray for the Truth

I agree completely with everything you just said.

bjladd,Appreciate your heart and like we are want to do, the tendencies are to bend in the direction of offense/defense, both sides pushing it a bit to far at times.With that must say that this is also a course of pragmatism, 'the end's justify the means'. The problem is in those that get laid waste and mislead by getting caught up in what is predominately bad teaching. Taking an attitude of "I don't care" is not very healthful, nor is minimizing serious problems to "a few" incidents easily dismissed.Without bringing out a whole laundry list, what can be said to those that come full of expectations of being healed at one of these crusades and when that doesn't happen go away devastated, their faith in ruins? Or the underlying sentiment that a lack of faith is the suspect? That you can't even get up on stage unless you already have been 'healed' in the first place? Then to have this man place his hand on you and attribute to the Holy Spirit to what follows...The manipulation of peoples emotional states with the repetitive soft music playing over and over to create an 'atmosphere'? A lot of this is psychological manipulation and that is a major problem, don't think you are taking seriously the concerns that others have for the brethren in a jump to defend the 'good'. That the Lord might well do things despite all these things is besides the point. This is not a judgment on the man or his love for the Lord or his motives. We are to judge with righteous judgment and what he says, does and teaches are all areas that we should be concerned with.Do not be deceived, there are serious issues to contend with, only hope that you might consider these things in that light.

I don't think God would allow very many people to get healed, who honestly thought (in the body of Christ at least) that Benny Hinn had miraculous healing powers that could heal them of their ailments. I recognize that this isn't the case for all people who don't get healed, but that reason certainly would include a large percentage of those who do not. People in desperate situations could very easily get persuaded to attend a healing crusade in the hopes that they could just touch the fringe of Benny Hinn's garment--totally missing the true Healer who is Jesus.Now, for those who are legitimately seeking their healing from God, who don't get healed, I don't think they have any reason to get discouraged. After all they didn't pay to come sit in the glorious presence of God and sing praises with thousands of believers. If the Bible says the angels rejoice after one persion gives their life to Christ, is it any wonder thunderous applause is given when hundreds of thousands of people stand up and make that decisious for them. Are those people in the wheelchairs--blood bought people--rejoicing at that landslide of God's awesome moving? Are they rejoicing that their brothers and sisters just got healed by the power of God? Or are they sitting there thinking about themselves and why God didn't heal them. That's not for me to say, but I do offer it as some valid reason for people not getting healed.Yet another possibility is that God, in His sovereign will, doesn't work a miracle in their life because He knows that in their selfish, carnal condition that they would be puffed up in pride and think they're somehow more special in the body. The people on stage all seem to have one unifying characteristic--they are broken people who give glory to God for their deliverance. They praise Him and they rejoice and Hinn exhorts everyone to thank God for the awesome work God just did.All that to say, we think (I know I used to) that miracles will draw people close to God--and certainly it does in people's lives that believe God did the miracle. And yet, often times the reverse happens. The Israelites grumbled against Moses after He prayed that God part the red sea, Jezebel called for Elijah's head after He prayed fire down on the sacrifice at Carmel, and the pharisees literally plotted to murder Jesus right after Lazarus was raised. Miracles and people hating those who have done miracles really do go hand in hand. It's no different today.I also just want to address one thing: As far as people being on stage who have already gotten healed, that isn't always the case. I have seen someone get prayed for who hadn't gotten healed and she was totally set free right on stage. But even if it is, Benny Hinn's staff have to screen people (in the Spirit) and exercise some discernment so some wacko doesn't get up on stage and make a mockery of the things of God. I read some scathing secular report of someone who went to a Benny Hinn crusade to totally try to rip him apart. He put on this fake neck brace and stood in line to get up on stage to totally wreak havoc, but God wouldn't allow him to get up there because of that screening process. Satan would definitely love to discredit the work of God and it's a credit to Benny Hinn and His staff that they are able to discern what's of God and what's not.Anyway, I don't feel threatened by the opposition. I respect those people who defend their position regardless of what others may think or feel because the holiness of the Bible demands that we not compromise it. I'm doing no less, and as long as we remain Christian about our disagreements, they can actually serve to further our understanding of God. As iron sharpens iron, right? :)God's blessing all,Jordan(Note: Please don't think that I'm at all suggesting that people who don't get healed are carnal and faithless people; rather, I'm just offering some examples of why God would choose not to heal someone at a particular time and that it's not a discredit to Benny Hinn's ministry that this happens.)

Oh yeah, about the psychological states... God says that He inhabits the praises of His people. Just reading the psalms, we get this sense of God loving worship and praise through a host of musical instruments and with singing. As far as the atmosphere goes, entering into praise and worship gets all those multitudes of people into thinking about and glorifying the Father. Praise and worship does that. It gets our hearts on God. If you've never felt the presence of God in praise, then I feel for you. I have literally stood weeping uncontrollably because God's magnificent glory has been so overwhelming. Praise ushers in God's presence. I could see how people could consider it psychologically manipulative. But then to what goal? Everyone's singing hymns to Jesus. Is it about the offering? Crusades are free and are solely supported by people's *donations*. Furthermore, I helped at a Benny Hinn youth service in Baton Rouge and was going to handle the buckets that were to be passed out. God is my witness that we never passed out one bucket that night. We didn't take up a single offering. This was a year ago. Well, maybe it's the devil then... but my friends got saved and gave their lives to Christ? It really just doesn't make sense. He's either the antichrist or he's one of God's anointed. Really, there is no middle ground. I think the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of the latter.

and exercise some discernment so some wacko doesn't get up on stage and make a mockery of the things of God.Too late sadly for that...

I have prayed that God open my eyes about Benny Hinn and I still love him and respect his ministry. I love reading Paul's letters because behind that life I see how powerfully God has used him and worked through him. The same is true for so many people in the Bible and I put Benny Hinn on par with them.Now really, I don't mind that we disagree, Mr. Balog, Jesus IS the answer to everything, and I know we can definitely agree on that and that's way more important, anyway... :)I'll end with this: I think muslims who reject the message of Christ are doomed to spend eternity with their false god, allah. That said, I respect those muslims who have absolute conviction that they are following what they believe to be the truth; moreso even than so many of the lukewarm Christians who plague our churches in America who only care about God on Sunday mornings after squirming in their seats for an hour when the preacher is giving the word. I respect people who disagree with what Benny Hinn is doing and who feel compelled to tell the body of Christ because they genuinely believe he is leading many sheep astray. If they're doing so because they have the utmost reverence for God, I believe God will show people the truth. Saul was saved because he was on fire for God and thought he was doing service to the God of his fathers by killing Christians. Although he acted in ignorance, God showed such mercy to him because he actually loved the Bible and God's Word to the extent that he would allow no compromise, and it is better certainly to kill a few than to see many convert to a false god. He gave hearty approval to the stoning of Stephen wishing to purge the impurity out of people who were deliberately preaching heretical doctrine concerning the messiah. I can't help but read in Saul's conversion how much of a heart he had for not compromising God's Word. And it's really the same with us. I am absolutely open to God changing my heart on anything that isn't absolutely of Him, and I know He will for everyone who agrees with something now that is contrary to His will but who has the right motives.

Please read 2nd Peter and 1st John 4

Sometimes it is helpful to remember that a wolf in sheep's clothing is going to try very hard to look like one of the flock.Dan/\\/\\/\\

Mrs. Hinn Man Dies At Benny Hinn Crusadehttp://www.csicop.org/si/2002-05/i-files.htmlhttp://www.banner.org.uk/wof/Hinn.htmlAct 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. Act 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

For any casual readers of this thread - crsschk's link to Mrs. Hinn would be hilarious if it wasn't so disturbing.Dan/\\/\\/\\

Yes Mrs Hinn is very very very Disturbing.It Hurts watching it.

I honestly want to ask one question here- I have tried links for the Daylight show(correct me if I am worng), and the links which bro. Mike suggested- I'm not a Benny Hinn Defender- (for I know very little of him than most of you being in Africa) but WHO ARE THE WRITERS? WHO ARE THE HOSTS OF THE SHOW? ARE THEY THE CHILDREN OF SATAN OR ARE THEY CHILDREN OF GOD! If they are led by the spirit of the enemy(definetly they cannot be led by the Spirit of God) do they want to discredit Benny or God? And did the discerning ability of Paul and other apostles lie on the outsiders or on the Holy Spirit? Your Sis Mek.

New Zealand has had a new disaster in the Pentecostal circles. Benny Hinn goes on as strong as ever, purposefully. If and when these people are eventually found out to have been fakes, who suffers the most ? What will it do to the gospel ? and last but not least, WHO BENEFITS THE MOST OUT OF ALL THIS MAYHEM ? The capital letters do not mean I'm screaming no matter how much I would like too. No matter what, the Lord has promised to care for his own. Don't follow a person or persons, read the WORD, PRAY and call on the Lord with all your heart,soul and mind.joukoAct 2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Mat 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Benny hinn has gotten himself into the Prosperity Gospel and has made a lot of false prophetic statements, as well as hinting at a form of Necromancy. Also He Uses the Holy Spirit in a way that does not line up with JESUS.However if you Read Amos you will find that GOD uses things that are meant for evil for GOOD.Benny can do no harm to the true Children of GOD, for they are in the Hands of JESUS.However He can hurt new and inexperienced Christians when they put there hopes in a man instead of The Man.In Christ Michael

Medkes, our dear friend wrote:do they want to discredit Benny or God? And did the discerning ability of Paul and other apostles lie on the outsiders or on the Holy Spirit? Think there is mixed motives and have been caught up in a wrong headed way myself where it turned into mere discrediting even if it bore out of sincere concern, the flesh rising up.To bring up the older thread and other links was an effort for one, to not be completely repeating the same thoughts over and over again. Secondly and again, this is a matter of battle fatigue, it is a wearing, grievous, tempting thought not to even bother, it is often an exercise in futility and borders on the opposite view of those who would want to defend... 'I just don't care anymore'. I well know the position of being in a defensive mode in this regard as I was as much vehemently struck with a sense of the same arguments; 'Why do you criticize? Why do you bring all these things against this man...look at all the souls being saved...'Am actually more inclined in a sense to just jump ship and align with a couple here that see this as only an exercise in tearing down, unnecessary criticism, bad-mouthing... I hate the divisiveness and am often very vocal when the back-bitting and slandering, the pride starts rising up amongst the brethren around here.But this is not what this is all about. And if I have slipped into the unnecessary, please point it out and I ask your forgiveness before the fact.In a nut shell. I don't want to deal with this anymore, I am tired of it all, cannot convince anyone and recall with great tears when this broke upon me, not just Mr. Hinn but all these men that I had been gleaning my perception of just what Christianity was. For a time just about turned my back on the whole thing, who to believe?, is there anyone trustworthy? This whole thing is a sham and a mockery, I have been sold a lie, all these thought's coursing through my mind.But I must speak, and not out of any desire whatsoever from the lower nature to 'prove' anything, compelled to because I do indeed care tremendously.A different tact here.What is back of all this? Not just this particular man and his ministry, but of the likes of the same styled presentation of the meaning and substance of this 'version' of Christianity?There are various tentacles that branch out with variations but it does seem to come forth from a 'center' no matter how well it is disguised and cloaked in 'Christian' terminology. And that center is..."Me"Just to take a look at it all in a broad way.Prosperity = MeHealing = Me"Speaking things into existence" = Me"Name it and claim it" = Me'Reaping and sowing' = Me"God has a wonderful plan for your life" = MeGiving to get = MeFavor = MeCertainly some of these things have actual principles behind them and others are just flat out false. But this is by and large an American construct that has taken the intent of what Jesus meant when He stooped to be clothed in humanity and take our sins upon Himself and turned it upside down and made it something other.This has become a religion of "Self".Self helpSelf advancementSelf promotionSelf seeking and self absorbingIn one sense it has become the "Greatest hit's of scripture". Only that which is pleasing to the lower nature that the Lord came to eradicate. Where are the flocks of people coming to crusades and conventions and having their hearts exposed by the gospel.... and they were cut to the heart of repentance and turning away from sin, of "taking up your cross and following [i]Me?If one was to look, the vast discrepancies between the big business of American 'christianity' and what it promotes of a largely unbalanced, overemphasized body of selective texts (usually out of context) and the rest of the world and even recent past history... am shocked that it's not more shocking.It is precisely that, when it began to break on me I found to be so disturbing, that I wasn't following in Jesus' footsteps but had been trailing behind Barjesus, Elymas the sorcerer and his equal cohort Simon who could practically sum up much of our modern day emphasis;Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Act 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. It may not always get promoted overtly but there is no denying the underlying sentiment of 8:20.Perhaps the most striking is that if anything that we ought to be as followers of the Lord Jesus Christ is honest, about ourselves, about our condition, with humility and fear and trembling before a Holy God. We have gone the same way as the Israelites and created God in our own image, idolatry. We will hear what we want to hear and then decide by our own standards as to how things fit into our little constructs that we have cooked up in our fallen and feeble minds.Right now there are many true believers around the world that know what it is to "suffer for His name sake". Hardships and persecution, trials and afflictions, suffering, that if it would be brought to bear on the easy-believism of this false American version of christianity, the herd would be quickly thinned out and the road narrowed back down to a path that few would choose to walk. And a great deal of that lies in the fact that many of these same self-styled teachers and 'prophets' have been selling a lie to the masses. To call it a 'false gospel' seems to be a contradiction in terms. Is it good news to find that you have swallowed a lie?This is what is back of all these dealings here.This is what and why this is being protested.This is the only motive whatsoever, to snatch away the sheep being led astray.Luk 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword! Mat 10:35 For I came to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Mat 10:36 A person's enemies will be members of his own family.' Mat 10:37 "The one who loves his father or mother more than me isn't worthy of me, and the one who loves a son or daughter more than me isn't worthy of me. Mat 10:38 The one who doesn't take up his cross and follow me isn't worthy of me. Mat 10:39 The one who finds his life will lose it, and the one who loses his life because of me will find it." Joh 6:53 So Jesus told them, "Truly, truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life in yourselves. Joh 6:54 The one who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him to life on the last day. Joh 6:55 For my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink. Joh 6:56 The person who eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Joh 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will also live because of me. Joh 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not the kind that your ancestors ate. They died, but the one who eats this bread will live forever." Joh 6:59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue at Capernaum. Joh 6:60 When many of his disciples heard this, they said, "This is a difficult statement. Who can accept it?" Joh 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Does this offend you? Phi 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. Phi 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

She does say rightly though that we need to get off our butts. The early Christians were far fewer and lived in much more adversity and yet they did so much more. the annointing is the same, from the same God, same Holy spirit, what changed? We just got lazy. Now we may question the way she said it but in truth we must be honest with ourselves, and honesty can be harsh sometimes. What would be a better way to communicate that we have been goofing off for too long and need to get with the program?

brethren, we should always remember that Christ's words were difficult ones then and now, they are certainly harsh. for example, "I am the way the truth and the life" What does that says about other religions? Basically without Christ one goes to hell, end of story. That's not a nice thing to say today but it is still true today. see what I'm saying?

Thousands of people lined the road to but touch the hem of Jesus' garments. Miracles beyond number and record were performed yet at the foot of the cross, as the Son of God breathed His last breath there were but FOUR followers. The most powerful miracle possible is that of a new, clean heart and everything else and I mean everything pales in comparison for we are all evil and our hearts and imaginations seek to do evil continually. I don't look to any man, any human for signs and wonders as proof of my faith because my foundation is built on the rock of Christ not that which is but a vapour, the length of a mans' days. I hope and pray for the lost to come to the foot of the cross not available to human eyes but only to the sight of faith, that's why I have no trust in man's ways, none whatsoever no matter what it appears to be, and I only have need to look in my own heart to see the wicked nature of all men. Rich

Amen! :-)

Amen :-D Amen Brother Ben, shot at the Fox and killed the Hen :-P

Karl,I am finding that the main posters that post on this site are the most critical bunch of people that I have come across. You can't even peep without them just thrashing for every jot or tittle.Then why are you here? If you don't think that you may be challenged on something by the body of believers that contribute here.So having said that, it doesn't surprise me in the least that Christians seem to enjoy putting down those who are on thier black list. Enjoy? Black list? Is that how you respond to the brethren who have serious concerns about matters?Now to my regular posters, do what you do best, tear this post apart.Purposefully wanting to be antagonistic, no use for that here nor your snide remarks.

Hi Karl,I am finding that the main posters that post on this site are the most critical bunch of people that I have come across. You can't even peep without them just thrashing for every jot or tittle.While this site has had its ups and downs--as all do I'm sure--So far this forum has been a breath of fresh air for me. Now I'm sure that I disagree with much of your theological leanings. But because I disagree doesn't make me critical, it just means I disagree with you. And I hope the same is true on your part. Emotion is a difficult thing to convey acurately in written form without being misunderstood, with the exception of extremes of course. Anyone can type with all caps and a plethora of exclamations to show anger, or flood a post with smiley faces and handle it with kid gloves. But to cordially disagree and take an opposing view point without offending your opponent's ego is difficult.What I guess that I'm trying to say is that in a forum that's open to the general public, you have to have a thick skin. I know my theological view points have been challenged many times since I've been here. I'm sure they'll continue to be challenged But that's ok because that's part of the purpose of a forum.Now those who are truly critical, well all you can do is pray for them and try not to let yourself be offended.In Christ,Jeremy Hulsey

I know of at least two great men of the Bible that disagreed. How about Peter and Paul :-) I also believe that more than one denomination will make it to heaven. 8-)

Healingwaters wrote:You can't even peep without them just thrashing for every jot or tittle.What do you mean by that? :-x Now to my regular posters, do what you do best, tear this post apart.Well I consider myself a regular poster, so I'll speak for us normal, well balanced people.Here is some advice or criticism you can decide which category they fall into:1)Don't take things personally2)Don't take things personally3)Don't take things personallyI know the principle that as man thinks in his heart so is he, so when we put down in print our views and opinions we are in essence revealing who we are. To expose yourself publicly and then to be canned because one jot or tittle is our of place can vex the spirit. It is a scary place when you have poured over a piece of writing and a bull comes and destroys the china, but gee, the china belongs to him anyway. From a personal aspect I have grown immensly from the sharing that takes place here, I would say even more so than the sermons that undergird SI. I am blessed that my church has a simaler heart to what is preached here, so I don't get my food here.I think that Peters comment:But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened.” 15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.1 Peter 3:14-16And another one in PhillipainsLet your gentleness be evident to all. Phill 4:5Shows your needed attitude.Even if you are surrounded by thugs, you have the privilige of being a gentleman and portraying manners that others do not even know exist. I wonder if those that are the most aggresive on the keyboard are that way in life? If they are not hiding behind a computer proclaiming from the rooftops their ways of God, they live every day life with a mask on, saying 'I am like you'.Reflecting,

Today I sat and listened to a couple from Sweden. One had been in China as a kid with her missionary parents and her husband had delivered Bibles to the East during the time when the wall was up. They are still doing theirs for the Kingdom of God. I asked him what it is like in Sweden today and he sadly said, not good. In his sermon he said we have it too easy whereas in China they haven't and are closer to the Lord. No doubt, harder times are ahead and no doubt it will force us closer to the Lord. In the East they want any Bible they can get their hands on. One lady had the last chapter in the Bible and that was the only Bible she had had for the last 20 years. Contrast that to the teaching we get in todays churches ? We sit in our pews in comfortable seats, listen to a preacher proclaiming how much more we deserve and so on.Are we serious or have we lost the plot ? Unfortunately the news get worse, at least here in Australia. A church that have been fundamental in their message is now saying that in essence there is nothing that differs us from the Catholic church except Mary. How blind does one get ? What is needed before us churchgoers wake up to the fact that we are being churchjacked ? Why do we get upset in forums like this when somebody is having another opinion ? I for one am glad when somebody rings a warning bell about something. It makes me more wary and that I believe is everybody's responsibility. Have we lost our spiritual discernment to the degree that anything coming our way is accepted as the "truth" without hesitance and resistance? Keep on ringing the warning bells dear brothers and sisters.jouko1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they as of the world, and the world heareth them. 1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he who is not of God heareth us not. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

iHilam wrote:I know of at least two great men of the Bible that disagreed. How about Peter and Paul :-) I also believe that more than one denomination will make it to heaven. 8-) Honestly, I believe that's the wisest thing that's been written in this thread. I wholeheartedly agree.Blessings to all,Jordan

I can't imagine the burden of responsibility the Hinn's must have. I honestly feel for Mrs. Hinn after watching that clip; it looked like she was truly desperate. Much more disturbing than the clip itself, however is how callous the church's response can be to an obviously rough situation. How many people can honestly empathize with her condition? I doubt anyone here knows what it's like to be consumed with a 24/7 supernatural ministry of worldwide healing crusades and epic soulwinning battles. If Pastor or Mrs. Hinn miss it once or twice over the broad sweeping spanse of their lives, who are we to judge if at one point they didn't refill on the power of the Holy Spirit and just did church in the flesh? Does God see it like that? We are so quick to shout apostasy and so quick to be whistleblowers for Jesus at the faint smelling of such apostasy--but wow, has anyone ever stopped to consider how much the devil has personally tried to attack this ministry? Even if people got saved and healed *in spite* of his ministry, why would the devil be so dumb to allow that "coincidence" to keep on occuring en mass?Anyways, I'm not going to judge Benny Hinn or his wife until God uses me to lead millions of people to Christ and the devil hates my guts as much as he hates theirs. I feel bad that I haven't prayed for Pastor Hinn and His wife like I should be doing. When we see Christian leaders so obviously being attacked by the enemy, why don't we step into our prayer closets and help them out on our knees? I know God can do more there than me tearing them down and stumbling other believers.Incidentally, I was grieved watching this "prophetic" show on broadband. In it, I saw a whole host of scripture verses along with dollar donations so the "prophets" would deliver your personal prophecy if you had enough cash to receive it (Visa, Mastercard and Discover were all accepted). I was grieved. Now, my point is this: I honestly prayed for the leaders of that show that they would come to Christ and that they would stop counterfeiting the gospel. I'm not going out and shouting their names at the top of my lungs that they're fakes, even though I believe they are. Instead, I'm just praying that their ministry come to nothing and that people would get delivered from it. We're not all called to be apostles, and I believe only that office carries an authority high enough to publicly rebuke a ministry. As bad as we think something may be in the Spirit--we should all realize that being quiet and praying love and blessings and deliverance on people is far better and more effective than knocking something down that truly is of God but we just couldn't recognize it.

I keep hearing that because souls are saved by Benny Hinn ministries that it is a legitimate ministry.The fact is that the word of God is incorruptable seed and even if the sower is in error the seed is still good.It may sound weird but soul-winning is not the only measure of a ministry. With Hinns preaching of prosperity message it is a good bet that a large percentage of the converts are false converts. This is even true of large mainstream ministries.Philippians 1:15-1815 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to bonds:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.Notice that Paul praises the face that the gospel goes out but not all the preachers of it.In Christ,geddingsm

Benny should pray for a pair of asbestos ears, surely he could use them by now.God bless good ol' brother Benny, I hope he gets to heaven with the rest of the church and we can worship our creator for eternity. But as a believer we are all going to be held accountable for how we live our lives as believers, and honestly although I have offered my 2 cents, I'm really much more concerned with what the Lord's going to say about me when I stand before Him, than what He's gonna say about Benny. ;-)

...to that still small voice.That prompts me, "Don't"And I do it anyway."Wait"And I rush on ahead."Confess"But then I am equvicating, Lord...(Me)"I am off here""I agree" It seems the Lord is saying."Leave it alone"But what about...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~And on it goes. It is strange this life, the things that trip you up, that you thought were dead, darned cockroaches of the old nature.Been out of sorts lately. A sense of the Lords abiding... diminished. Emotions and exhaustion, care and concern for the Brethren, the family, the Church, pressures, work, finances.... (And oddly, none of this seemed to matter much in the right perspective just a few short weeks ago)'Off'Bleech...Not sympathyNot man pleasingNot "got this all figured out" by any stretch of the imaginationA bit unsure about a lot of things but not this well said quote snatched from another thread:PhilologosPeople do need to know that they are loved by God; in whatever condition they are. Not because they are not so bad as they think they are, but because they are much worse than they think they are.It's pride.It's disobedience.It's wrongheaded.So the point is...Yesterday was rebuked for my own duplicity in this thread, that though I may feel that I must respond to many things that I believe to be wrong about what goes on not only through that particular ministry but many similar modern day teachings, it can and does get the 'best' of me (whatever that is supposed to mean, "best", of what?).An apologie to you Healingwings, had my own snide remarks in there as well.We can say the right things at the wrong time with the wrong spirit. And I can only attribute it to one thing, choosing to not listen and obey those small promptings that I know the Lord is telling me...The good, the bad, and the ugly.Think all of this applies here:Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. Alternately wishing this thread would just die and go away and yet wondering how much harm could still linger by just shutting it down.Two different things I can see here. One is the difference between "Peace" and "Unity" and there is a difference just as between compromise and criticism. The question is, where is the dividing line? When is enough, enough? Just looking at the counter on this thread shows quite a bit of interest. Towards what I wonder, is it mere "controversey", or is it motivated out of love? Are we more concerned about positions or truth? What is speculation and what is factual?And when do we jump the rails and get away from the issues and start taking shots at one another?Most importantly, not WWJD, but what would He have us to do?It's a barage of questions and hope to make some kind of sense here. This is always a grevious thing to go through again and again and don't think it is much of a reach to say that Krispy and myself having been caught up in much of this at one time are going to be much more vocal about it. The residue of much of this 'style' of teaching is something that though it is ebing away more and more, still had lasting effects in real practical life in those that I know and love.It becomes a mindset if you will and I think the most sinister part of it is in that it's not the overt, but the subtle. Certainly no expert in all these things, but the experience I can speak to.The carrot and the stick. Just always a bit out of reach. "If I believe it, think it, speak it... I can have it". Psa 37:4 Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.Joh 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. Just a few of the scriptures used in isolation while negating all the rest and misapplying them to our modern day, for all of these there is more context to look at at, here's just some of it;Psa 37:3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. Psa 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide. Joh 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. Joh 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; Now it might be said that this doing just the smae thing in reverse, but to borrow some great council in these matters it is that we lift scripture verse's up to examine them, but make sure to put them back where you found them.All this is to say, we must get down to the heart of the matter and the matter is our heart. Have all the confidence in God that He will do exactely as He says and time and experience has shown that unless the heart is changed and the desires thereof we will recieve nothing.One last bit. On the clip. I do regret putting that up, because I disobeyed the Lord, felt a prompting not to do so and did it anyway. Not to malign but felt at the time that it was something that was tangible and not speculative..."I read about this somewhere....".But now it's out there...What about the defence for the Holy Spirit?

And I'm gonna make sure that God will not accuse me of not sounding a warning about false teachers and allowing my fellow man follow them down the wrong road by my silence.Yes, he might make you sleep in the bunk house. :-P

I definitely don't think this thread should be shut down. It was a pleasure reading all of the responses, and I think it's an important enough topic that it *must* be dealt with by believers in the body who hold both positions. While I can't seriously anticipate one side doing a mass conversion to the other, we should ultimately be respectful of the other person's position and not let our disagreements come between us "loving one another," as the Bible countless times exhorts us to do. Honestly, we do this with our unsaved loved ones all the time, but I find (and not everwhere, thank God) that it's oftentimes only in the church that I find grace so seriously wanting. While we definitely have a responsibility to not *ever* under any circumstance compromise the Holy Word of God, this doesn't give us license to make fun of people or shout heretic, even if we believe they are in a state of apostasy. Rather, we should love them enough to pray for them, and, if do we believe their particular flock is being lead down the path of destruction, we can approach them and their people with the living Word of God to try and fix that error with the inerrancy of Scripture--in love. Whether or not they receive the message, is entirely up to them--but we've at that point done our part in addressing the perceived error. For myself, I'm not so much defending Benny Hinn's ministry as showing you all an example of someone who loves Jesus with all of his heart, and who also happens to believe that that same Jesus is using Benny Hinn to preach *His* glorious word to the nations. Please understand me, I'm certainly not trying to make any Benny Hinn converts, but to address the fact that whether or not you do accept his ministry as being from the Lord, there do exist people who are legitimate disciples of Christ and who also support Hinn's work wholeheartedly. This realization, I think, would do well in changing at least a few people's hearts who feel Hinn is leading many down a false and deceptive road.Ultimately, I think we should all realize that it's not up to us to change someone's heart or position to ours--it's the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. I'm not at all trying to discourage open debate, but there is a certain point one hits in conversation where both sides understand that the other is already too entrenched to make the cross over to their side. After that point is reached, may I suggest that both parties just manifest the love of Christ and prayerfully ask the Lord to reveal truth to everyone? I can certainly disagree with many here about Benny Hinn, but realize that I'm disagreeing with blood-washed saints who I'll be rejoicing with in heaven for all eternity. I honestly empathize with crsschk's feeling of weariness at how long this debate has gone on for. I think we would do well to just treat this as a "denominational" issue that we just happen to be in disagreement about and then refocus our efforts in bridging the gap between this disagreement with good, solid John 3:16. One thing I do thank God for is that our salvation is entirely independent of whether or not we believe Hinn is annointed or not, and so--even with our more vocal brothers and sisters in the Lord--we can find that blessed meeting ground in Jesus where together we can find peace, joy and unity.Lastly, I just want to publicly say that I only care that Jesus Christ of Nazareth be glorified and magnified in my life, and absolutely no one else in all the world but Him. After all, it was Jesus Himself who rebuked Peter on the mount of transfiguration for wanting to build altars to Moses and Elijah, and I sincerely believe we should do no less with anyone in this world who God chooses to use powerfully. It's not about Benny Hinn at all. It's about our blessed Savior who bled and died for us, and through His sacred and precious, shed blood brought about the redemption of all mankind--of which I am eternally grateful for.I love you all,Jordan

KrispyKrittr wrote:I love ya, bjladd...You too, Neil!...oh, and bubbaguy too.I love everyone I've conversed with, agreed or disagreed.And it's out of that love that I sound the warnings I do. But at the end of the day, I wish y'all could join me on the front porch for some sweet tea while we watch the magnificant southern sun bleed away into the twilight sky.KrispyHallelujah! I'd be totally up for that.--Jordan

I've thought long and hard about the occurence of "big" preachers on all medias and how they seem to have the word on any kind of problem and with just a quick whiff, it's all fixed. It truly disturbs me when we can't be open about our ministries, let the world know what I'm about etc. No, instead we hide behind the church walls pretending to be holier than holy and in need of nothing. Sounds familiar ?This day I received this (the last bit) in my mail box and it truly says a lot about the church in the west, me included. We have become the one with all the answers, can't take a bit of criticism about our pet preacher, project etc. I am pretty much like this one fellow wrote, Jag vet att jag alltid har rätt, men har antagligen ständigt fel. Translated, I know I'm always right, but am probably always wrong.Some preachers don't see it that way anymore, in fact, they don't see anything anymore, they're always right. Today, they don't have to defend themselves anymore, their disciples do it ! I don't believe this is the only place where the Hinns etc. have been exposed. I believe there are people within the organisations promoting this kind of gospel that have done exactly what the Bible tells them to do, exhort, pray, but have finally being kicked out due to their Biblical stance. It concerns me very much when my oldest kid went to a youth meeting/church and came back saying things that shouldn't be going on in the church. I praise the Lord that she had discernment to know that the preaching was totally against the Word of God. Here comes the worrying bit. How many of the kids that were there came back the next week ? I would guess a large part. Did they find anything wrong with the teaching ? I would say no. Why not ? Because nobody had taught them any better and the Word of God is distorted to the degree that these young people do not know any better. Remember, Do not judge !!!!!! If somebody invites these young people to receive the lord in their hearts they will do so by jumping up and down smiling all the way to the altar whilst the rest of the youth whistles and hoo-haa them and the rock music plays in the back ground. You people in America have got it all as we have here in Australia. We have truly become nations in need of nothing. Anything goes and nothing can be criticised or condemned. Is that the way it should be ? According to my Bible it says differently.-Extracts by Michael Phillips."... It is with great pleasure that I want to present to our beloved brothers and sisters in the church behind what we have called the Iron Curtain these last fifty years, a check from money raised by faithful believers across America.... Ladies and gentlemen," he went on, "I want you to meet a man I know you are eager to hear from, a man who carried the standard of the cross bravely, as you know - imprisoned and tortured, he never gave in to those who would destroy his faith. And so now, Dieder - Dieder Palacki, won't you please come, accept this money on behalf of Christians behind the Iron Curtain everywhere. I have here a check for three million dollars to give you!"At the words, sighs and gasps and a few low whistles could be heard, all of which gave way to a round of applause. He turned, expecting Palacki to stand, come forward and shake the outstretched hand that awaited him.But instead Palacki remained seated where he was, until the clapping died down. At last he rose, came forward, took the check, shook MacPatricks hand unaggressively, but still said nothing. Slightly unnerved, but still not losing his cool, MacPatrick resumed his own seat with the other dignitaries.Slowly Palacki make his way toward the podium. He appeared not even to notice the applauding reception that broke out again, and in his eyes was not a look of warmth.Reaching the center of the platform, he did not lift his head to scan the faces of his listeners. Gradually the clapping died down and the hall fell silent. Still Palacki stared downward in front of him, while the delegates waited expectantly.It was several long moments before he at last spoke. "It has been a curious past several days," he began, speaking softly. "I have been listening with great interest to the many discussions and exhortations, all with the end in view of promoting the Christian faith in a region of the world where one might conclude never before had a single soul heard the name Jesus of Nazareth.""I must admit that when the invitation came to join you, and even to address this gathering, I found myself seized with a certain trepidation. As you know, large assemblies of Christians such as this have not been customary where I come from, and thus most of my work among Christians has been in small groups of less than one hundred. Addressing several thousand I found a very intimidating prospect.""In the end however, I decided to join you, for we pastors and Christians from the regions formerly behind the Iron Curtain are certainly excited about the new possibilities for evangelism in our nations too.""But as I listened to more and more talk of money and pamphlets, of missionaries being sent and books being shipped, of teachers and pastors coming to help and train us in spreading the gospel, and of your gospel TV and radio stations and your gospel trains and gospel trucks full of your Western-style gospel paraphernalia - your badges and tracts and stickers and music and gaily written happiness-books with their joy-filled, razzle-dazzle Christianity - a knot has steadily risen in my stomach.""Do not forget, I have spent much time in your countries. I have been in your churches and bookstores. I have witnessed with my own eyes the trappings of your so-called spiritual prosperity, which is really no prosperity at all, but a hollow empty shell.""Something within me wants to shout and say to you all, "Go home to your contented and wealthy homes and communities and churches. The Good News of Jesus Christ is alive and vibrant and is fully capable of carrying itself abroad into the hearts of hungry men and women without the benefit of your expensive and lavish commercial efforts on its behalf.""Why do you think that those of us such as my brothers Wurmbrand and Duduman and Vins and others have been risking our lives for all these years? Each of us has been imprisoned, beaten, tortured, humiliated because of our preaching of Christ's gospel. Thousands upon thousands of our fellow Poles and Russians and Slavs and East Germans have laid their lives on the line for the sake of their faith and in order to share that faith with others.""I tell you, my friends, God's church is alive and well in the areas you represent as lost and in such desperate need. Small, perhaps, it may be, but it is alive and thriving because in our corners of the world there is a price to be paid to call yourself a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. A price that cannot be measured, as you seem to measure all things - by money. No, you who hear my words who I hope and pray are my brothers and sisters, it costs to believe in the East. It costs all you have to be a Christian. So there are very few lukewarm, halfhearted souls among us. To be halfhearted can cost you your life!""For years we have tried to alert you Christians of the West to the true state of affairs behind the Iron Curtain. We have written, we have traveled, we have spoken, we have prayed, we have wept.""How many of you listened to us?""My brother and friend Alexandr Solzhenitsyn attempted for a decade to be heard, as have so many others. We asked for your prayers, for Bibles, for help in teaching and training our people. And some help did come, for which we were grateful.""But the rest of you continued to feed your own mammoth religious systems, building yet bigger and bigger transmitting stations and more television stations and publishing more books - all in the name of proclaiming the gospel.""But did you ever give of yourselves? Did you come help us? Did you pray for us? Did you suffer and die and starve with us? How much did you really care about the people you now so pompously think you will save for the kingdom?""Where have you been all this time? We needed your help and prayers and support and Bibles when times were hard! We have been beaten and imprisoned and even killed for the gospel's sake. Where were you when it counted? We lived our faith behind the Iron Curtain, and now that it is down, who is to say we even want you coming with your pompous egoism and self-reliance?.... Do you truly expect us to share your enthusiasm and welcome you and your wealthy brand of capitalistic Christianity with open arms?""Think again, my friends, those I would still call my brothers and sisters in spite of your blindness. Pause and consider the egotism of your presumption and the worldliness of your method."By now the auditorium was filled with the heaviness of shocked silence. No one dared move a muscle or so much as shift in his seat. But Palacki's chastening diatribe was not over yet."How dare you well-fed, contented, prosperous Christians of the West, come here now and think you can throw your money at us poor unfortunates and suddenly save the world with all the gadgets and inventions and high-tech wizardry of electronic spirituality! You with your multi-million-dollar architecturally imposing churches, you with your computer Bibles and preprogrammed Bible Studies, you with your posh cars and soft, upholstered pews, your grand libraries of Christian books, your leather-bound reference Bibles, you who have all the answers to the world's ills nicely at hand to spout off when asked.""Have we Christians of the East been idle all this time? What would you have us to do, go off quietly somewhere so you can come in and pat yourselves on the back before your watching congregations and claim credit for saving all the souls who would be lost without you?""No my shallow brothers and sisters of wealthy, contented Western evangelicalism! Build a prayer tower or a glass church somewhere, but think not that your money can save souls. Go back from whence you came, and spend your evangelistic self- gratifying mammon elsewhere!"Suddenly he stopped, stood another two or three seconds gazing at his listeners with calm countenance, yet flaming eyes. Then, with decisive motion he ripped the check he was still holding into several pieces and let it drop to the floor.Palacki turned and strode off the platform and out of sight, leaving his hearers gaping in stunned silence. Deu 13:12-18

I've thought long and hard about the occurence of "big" preachers on all medias and how they seem to have the word on any kind of problem and with just a quick whiff, it's all fixed. It truly disturbs me when we can't be open about our ministries, let the world know what I'm about etc. No, instead we hide behind the church walls pretending to be holier than holy and in need of nothing. Sounds familiar ?This day I received this (the last bit) in my mail box and it truly says a lot about the church in the west, me included. We have become the one with all the answers, can't take a bit of criticism about our pet preacher, project etc. I am pretty much like this one fellow wrote, Jag vet att jag alltid har rätt, men har antagligen ständigt fel. Translated, I know I'm always right, but am probably always wrong.I don't believe this is the only place where the Hinns etc. have been exposed. I believe there are people within the organisations promoting this kind of gospel that have done exactly what the Bible tells them to do, exhort, pray, but have finally being kicked out due to their Biblical stance. This is true about local churches as well, not just American mega churches.It concerns me very much when my oldest kid went to a youth meeting/church and came back saying things that shouldn't be going on in the church. I praise the Lord that she had discernment to know that the preaching was totally against the Word of God. Here comes the worrying bit. How many of the kids that were there came back the next week ? I would guess a large part. Did they find anything wrong with the teaching ? I would say no. Why not ? Because nobody had taught them any better and the Word of God is distorted to the degree that these young people do not know any better. Remember, Do not judge !!!!!! If somebody invites these young people to receive the lord in their hearts they will do so by jumping up and down smiling all the way to the altar whilst the rest of the youth whistles and hoo-haa them and the rock music plays in the back ground. Church today is entertainment and if it isn't then we go somewhere else where we can get it.You people in America have got it all as we have here in Australia. We have truly become nations in need of nothing. Anything goes and nothing can be criticised or condemned. Is that the way it should be ? According to my Bible it says differently.All said in love, or is it ?jouko-Extracts by Michael Phillips."... It is with great pleasure that I want to present to our beloved brothers and sisters in the church behind what we have called the Iron Curtain these last fifty years, a check from money raised by faithful believers across America.... Ladies and gentlemen," he went on, "I want you to meet a man I know you are eager to hear from, a man who carried the standard of the cross bravely, as you know - imprisoned and tortured, he never gave in to those who would destroy his faith. And so now, Dieder - Dieder Palacki, won't you please come, accept this money on behalf of Christians behind the Iron Curtain everywhere. I have here a check for three million dollars to give you!"At the words, sighs and gasps and a few low whistles could be heard, all of which gave way to a round of applause. He turned, expecting Palacki to stand, come forward and shake the outstretched hand that awaited him.But instead Palacki remained seated where he was, until the clapping died down. At last he rose, came forward, took the check, shook MacPatricks hand unaggressively, but still said nothing. Slightly unnerved, but still not losing his cool, MacPatrick resumed his own seat with the other dignitaries.Slowly Palacki make his way toward the podium. He appeared not even to notice the applauding reception that broke out again, and in his eyes was not a look of warmth.Reaching the center of the platform, he did not lift his head to scan the faces of his listeners. Gradually the clapping died down and the hall fell silent. Still Palacki stared downward in front of him, while the delegates waited expectantly.It was several long moments before he at last spoke. "It has been a curious past several days," he began, speaking softly. "I have been listening with great interest to the many discussions and exhortations, all with the end in view of promoting the Christian faith in a region of the world where one might conclude never before had a single soul heard the name Jesus of Nazareth.""I must admit that when the invitation came to join you, and even to address this gathering, I found myself seized with a certain trepidation. As you know, large assemblies of Christians such as this have not been customary where I come from, and thus most of my work among Christians has been in small groups of less than one hundred. Addressing several thousand I found a very intimidating prospect.""In the end however, I decided to join you, for we pastors and Christians from the regions formerly behind the Iron Curtain are certainly excited about the new possibilities for evangelism in our nations too.""But as I listened to more and more talk of money and pamphlets, of missionaries being sent and books being shipped, of teachers and pastors coming to help and train us in spreading the gospel, and of your gospel TV and radio stations and your gospel trains and gospel trucks full of your Western-style gospel paraphernalia - your badges and tracts and stickers and music and gaily written happiness-books with their joy-filled, razzle-dazzle Christianity - a knot has steadily risen in my stomach.""Do not forget, I have spent much time in your countries. I have been in your churches and bookstores. I have witnessed with my own eyes the trappings of your so-called spiritual prosperity, which is really no prosperity at all, but a hollow empty shell.""Something within me wants to shout and say to you all, "Go home to your contented and wealthy homes and communities and churches. The Good News of Jesus Christ is alive and vibrant and is fully capable of carrying itself abroad into the hearts of hungry men and women without the benefit of your expensive and lavish commercial efforts on its behalf.""Why do you think that those of us such as my brothers Wurmbrand and Duduman and Vins and others have been risking our lives for all these years? Each of us has been imprisoned, beaten, tortured, humiliated because of our preaching of Christ's gospel. Thousands upon thousands of our fellow Poles and Russians and Slavs and East Germans have laid their lives on the line for the sake of their faith and in order to share that faith with others.""I tell you, my friends, God's church is alive and well in the areas you represent as lost and in such desperate need. Small, perhaps, it may be, but it is alive and thriving because in our corners of the world there is a price to be paid to call yourself a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ. A price that cannot be measured, as you seem to measure all things - by money. No, you who hear my words who I hope and pray are my brothers and sisters, it costs to believe in the East. It costs all you have to be a Christian. So there are very few lukewarm, halfhearted souls among us. To be halfhearted can cost you your life!""For years we have tried to alert you Christians of the West to the true state of affairs behind the Iron Curtain. We have written, we have traveled, we have spoken, we have prayed, we have wept.""How many of you listened to us?""My brother and friend Alexandr Solzhenitsyn attempted for a decade to be heard, as have so many others. We asked for your prayers, for Bibles, for help in teaching and training our people. And some help did come, for which we were grateful.""But the rest of you continued to feed your own mammoth religious systems, building yet bigger and bigger transmitting stations and more television stations and publishing more books - all in the name of proclaiming the gospel.""But did you ever give of yourselves? Did you come help us? Did you pray for us? Did you suffer and die and starve with us? How much did you really care about the people you now so pompously think you will save for the kingdom?""Where have you been all this time? We needed your help and prayers and support and Bibles when times were hard! We have been beaten and imprisoned and even killed for the gospel's sake. Where were you when it counted? We lived our faith behind the Iron Curtain, and now that it is down, who is to say we even want you coming with your pompous egoism and self-reliance?.... Do you truly expect us to share your enthusiasm and welcome you and your wealthy brand of capitalistic Christianity with open arms?""Think again, my friends, those I would still call my brothers and sisters in spite of your blindness. Pause and consider the egotism of your presumption and the worldliness of your method."By now the auditorium was filled with the heaviness of shocked silence. No one dared move a muscle or so much as shift in his seat. But Palacki's chastening diatribe was not over yet."How dare you well-fed, contented, prosperous Christians of the West, come here now and think you can throw your money at us poor unfortunates and suddenly save the world with all the gadgets and inventions and high-tech wizardry of electronic spirituality! You with your multi-million-dollar architecturally imposing churches, you with your computer Bibles and preprogrammed Bible Studies, you with your posh cars and soft, upholstered pews, your grand libraries of Christian books, your leather-bound reference Bibles, you who have all the answers to the world's ills nicely at hand to spout off when asked.""Have we Christians of the East been idle all this time? What would you have us to do, go off quietly somewhere so you can come in and pat yourselves on the back before your watching congregations and claim credit for saving all the souls who would be lost without you?""No my shallow brothers and sisters of wealthy, contented Western evangelicalism! Build a prayer tower or a glass church somewhere, but think not that your money can save souls. Go back from whence you came, and spend your evangelistic self- gratifying mammon elsewhere!"Suddenly he stopped, stood another two or three seconds gazing at his listeners with calm countenance, yet flaming eyes. Then, with decisive motion he ripped the check he was still holding into several pieces and let it drop to the floor.Palacki turned and strode off the platform and out of sight, leaving his hearers gaping in stunned silence. Deu 13:12-18 2Co 12:10

This is kind of off topic, (well, maybe it's not) but here it goes anyway: One of the biggest things that I believe the prosperity teachers have brought to the body of Christ is the idea that being rich even in this life isn't anti-new testament. It's entirely possible to be humble and serving Christ while still owning a Lexus; indeed rich people can serve the body very effectively by giving generous offerings and donations. Some affluent Christians who are called into politics or to be CEO's of companies must dress and live a lifestyle above ours, but only in order to influence the affluent and so as not to stumble those who they represent--not that their monetary blessings in this life mean they are at all greater in God's eyes. If that doesn't make sense, let me see if I can provide a good enough example: A senator who God has placed in office honestly shouldn't dress in rags simply because a few people in Africa are in need of real clothes; he's just not called to be a missionary. However, much can be done by him as far as the kingdom goes (suit, tie and all) to effect change by sending monies and missionary support to help those tribes out. Furthermore, do we ourselves, hypocrites that we are, live in the most impoverished of conditions simply because poverty happens to exist in an unfortunate area of the world? The notion throughout the ages that poverty is a mark of spiritual humility is really in error and needs to be dealt with accordingly. And, as many of the prosperity teachers are so right in pointing out--people in impoverished circumstances can oftentimes be the biggest materialists. Money doesn't determine that: one's heart does.My only qualm with the message of prosperity that's being preached in America is this: God gives us wealth in order to serve Him and to glorify Him, and I don't think that point gets emphasized enough. I also don't believe many believers are capable of being truly and physically rich in this life without that wealth easily turning into mammon. It's only after a person surrenders their life to the Lordship of Jesus that they understand they're just a steward of His blessings anyway. Yes, I wish less emphasis were placed on the monetary rewards of giving (even though they do indeed come and God is so loving as to give good gifts to His children from time to time), and alot more on the heart condition that pleases God prerequisite to the giving. Now, that's not a knock on the prosperity teachers--it's just a bit out of balance I believe in some ministries. Some who hold to this position, through no fault of their own, have opened the flood gates for any old preacher who wants to get rich to join the bandwagon and start asking for seed. Well, I'm sure the devil loves to tweak the message of many genuine preachers with his own particularly nasty bents and hybrids. That's why we need to excercise discernment and not just give to anyone, but be lead by the Spirit concerning our offerings.All that to say, Jesus blessed a poor woman who gave everything in that offering cup and nearly rebuked a rich man for giving too little. I, too, would like to get to the place where I can give Jesus everything and hold back nothing. I wouldn't dare ask a million dollars from the Lord if that million dollars would turn my heart from following Him. Likewise, I would consider it a priviledge and an honor if Jesus thought me trustworthy enough to own a thousand times that much money.

Hi Jouko,Need to point out something about that Michael Philips 'Article'. Here's a bit about it House or Home Church Movement...you experience? will have to scroll back a few replies, but in a nut shell it's from a fictional account, as strong as the intent is, it didn't happen, it came from a book and got spread around the cyber world and it seems it wasn't done maliciously.I am pretty much like this one fellow wrote, Jag vet att jag alltid har rätt, men har antagligen ständigt fel. Translated, I know I'm always right, but am probably always wrong.Wonder what the equivalent translation would be of "I don't know anything, strongly suspect practically everything that passes through this fallen brain and if I happened to get something right you can be sure it didn't come from me" :-D A bit over the top, but will defend the right to have no rights about being 'right'... Maybe I will quit while I am ahead...Remember this scripture? Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.There is only One who is good and right... Just wanted to say thank you to all here for the recent change of tone and the great replies. It has caused much reflection and even a more sincere sense of really praying for the Hinn's and the others that come to mind, not to bend to anything of our particular opinions but to the Lords thought and His word as He intended it to go forth.A lot of open heart surgery gets preformed around here at times and not by the most skilled of surgeons, hence the messiness. Boy could we run off with this analogy... "Children, don't play with knives!" ;-)Fortunately there is one chief Surgeon and Healer.

Thanks Mike. I told you I was always wrong, even though I'm right. Never heard of G-12 if that is what you referred to and, honestly I didn't read through them comments either. It might be fiction but to me it shows the state we are in, caring more for ourselves and our riches. When persecution for a believer comes in the west then we will know what it is to be a Christian. I don't think materials apart from food will mean a lot at that time. By persecution I mean no right to assemble in your fellowships, no right as a Christian unless you are a registered entity etc. and what else that brings with it. In Finland the Pentecostals have already been divided into two lots, one calls themselves a church and the others are just like they used to be. The church part is recognised by the authorities and can do what the state church can do and the others just keep on going as usual until, and this is only me, until the authorities in Brussels or where ever they are going to be, will decide that "we can't have these freeminded Christians lose at every corner preaching their abominable gospel about no rights for the sinner to enter heaven". I'm sure there are sincere true Christians in both "camps" but as a "state recognised church" there will be a time for payback. Some twenty years ago my father in law said that "this particular person is going to deliver the Finnish Zion into the family of Rome" and I believe this was the beginning. That probably would have been thought of as crazy then, but now... ??!!Check out Sweden and you'll be shocked to the core. I'm sure it feels like Elijah for a lot of preachers, are there any one that serves the true God ??!! The Australian society has all but forgotten Christ. Easter means a great outing with the Australian Football season beginning and the easter bunny and the eggs to be had. In every one of these countries and in many more the gospel of prosperity is being preached but no matter how much it is preached it won't set people free. In Russia and other countries nearby, the true servants of God are asking why America is sending this teaching to us, referring to the gospel of prosperity. When I was a kid we always had the Russian bear on the other side of the fence and we knew in what situation the Christians were in, in the east. They yearned for any Bible or part of a Bible but mostly never got it. Then we had those "crazy" brothers who risked everything to get them the Living Word and many times they succeeded. Then we had those huge towers, never saw them, in the Baltic part of Russia where they tried to interfere with the radio signals sent from the west about the same Living Word.Then we had those who tried by any means make it out of the workers paradise and also those who wanted to get into the workers paradise from the free west never to be seen. Maybe I'm crazy too, but somehow I can see what is going on, (I'm sure not to be the only one) and it grieves me that brothers and sisters who were true to their Saviour, now are true to themselves and what self can bring, without even realising it. And you know what the worst part is, I feel just like Peter after he betrayed Jesus, guilty as charged. I don't think that Benny is the only one that needs God's grace in large quantities. joukoRev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Never heard of G-12 if that is what you referred to Um, no.. a whole other subject there... This probably sums up the 'article' taken from the book well: That piece was actually written by a novelist who I understand specializes in "reality-based" fiction. He takes real historical people and times, and writes fictional events around them to...Moving on, musing on the thought life of ourselves in our opinions and taking off on your comments... Perhaps it could be said this way, that our thoughts are under or submissive to Gods thoughts (how obvious!), but are they in practice? Be sure I am asking myself that question, constantly. Something to muse on:Paul is calling his own mind to a halt in order to explain to the Corinthian Church why what he says and does comes with authority. “Our sufficiency is from God; Who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant” (rv). If you are right with God, you will be amazed at what other people get in the way of real spiritual help out of what you say; but never think about it. The temptation comes all along to say, “It is because I brooded that God gave me that thought.” The right attitude is to keep the mind absolutely concentrated on God and never get off on the line of how you are being used by Him. Even in the choicest of saints there is the danger. Whenever you feel inclined to say, “Well, of course that was not me, that was God,” beware! you ought never to be in the place where you can think it. The teaching of Jesus is, “Be absorbed with Me, and out of you will flow rivers of living water” If we are paying attention to the Source, rivers of living water will pour out of us, but immediately we stop paying attention to the Source, the outflow begins to dry up. We have nothing to do with our “usability,” but only with our relationship to Jesus Christ, nothing must be allowed to come in between.Have we allowed this path of discernment to be trodden by our feet? Are we beginning to see where we are being led, viz. to the place where we are rooted and grounded in God†? The one essential thing is to live the life hid with Christ in God.Oswald ChambersJouko, thank you for helping us all see things in an entirely different light. It is one of the true riches of this place, getting perspective from other countries. "We" (certainly not all) Americans fail to recognize that there is a whole world out there that doesn't experience life like we are want to think, and sadly it seems the concern often is lip service, too busy concerning what materialistic substance is next up on the horizon, waiting to be consumed.You point out perfectly the concerns of some with this:The Australian society has all but forgotten Christ. Easter means a great outing with the Australian Football season beginning and the easter bunny and the eggs to be had. In every one of these countries and in many more the gospel of prosperity is being preached but no matter how much it is preached it won't set people free. In Russia and other countries nearby, the true servants of God are asking why America is sending this teaching to us, referring to the gospel of prosperity. Another perspective, this in regards to the situation in Iraq;Middle Easterners continue to identify the United States as a Christian nation, and Christianity as a faith that supports U.S. policies and social morals. Again, even if democracies are formed throughout the Middle East, it is likely Islamist governments will be elected. In that case, just as violence might increase against Christians, so would social ostracism for perceived links with the West.The Risks of Regime ChangeLonging to Be HeardThis isn't exactly what I was looking for, but the perception is that Christians in the west are seen as being aligned with all that is morally wrong and then importing it into other countries, of course that isn't everyone but does the Islamic not have a valid point? And doesn't a gospel of prosperity further give that perception?Even the seemingly 'not as bad as' modernity of so much 'teaching' prove us guilty. The books on the best sellers list are telling, that have been touched on here elsewhere. We have become one with the 'world' (the system thereof) as opposed to separate from. It is a self-consuming mantra that Christianity is about us and what's in it for me no matter how well it is cloaked in Christian overtones, lingo and the sentiment that it is all about Jesus.I know this seems on the surface to be taking a different track from the origins of this post but it is one in the same. Getting your healing, your miracle, your purpose, your best life now...Yet again an angle not of American origin and hope my friend doesn't mind me posting this from her perspective in Ethiopia;The Economic status is very horrible. Ethiopia has about 72 million people and not to exaggerate out of the 72 M. only about 8 Million eats trice a day (i.e. breakfast, Lunch, Supper) and this is mostly in cities. The other 64 M. eat once a day or no more than handful of fired beans a day. In this condition if you are a Christian, you have to trust the Lord for everything, you even have to pray to get a pair of shoes (when I say this I am representing the brethren here) leave alone shelter and other necessities.Please note, there is much more that could be said but for the point of emphasis just wanted to draw attention to this.To sum it up slightly, this just doesn't jive and that, if anything is the point. Worse that this has infiltrated other lands and there is no escaping that it is an export primarily from this country, yet we have no shame.

In regard to KrispyKritter's personal opinion of Benny Hinn which I found to be very ignorant and a show of his/her foolishness as no specific example/examples were given as to his (Benny Hinn's) heretical teachings or inadequate interpretation of the Bible.

YOU MIGHT FIND IT INTERESTING . . . PASTOR BENNY HINN IS NOW PARTNERING WITH LIBERTY UNIVERSITY AS AN ONLINE PROFESSOR OF BIBLICAL TEACHING!!!!!!

KrispyKritter . . . it would be interesting to know your opinion on what parts of his teaching you find objectionable and you might also want to consider why a reputable university with 60,000+ students would ask a heretic like Benny Hinn to teach Biblical studies online for the University.

You may want to take a look at your heart and search the Holy Spirit for your own understanding of the Bible. You may not be in the same stream as those like Benny Hinn and that is okay, but to criticize a man of God publicly when you just might not be right . . . you may want to ask forgiveness as remember what happened to Miriam. Leprosy???

I invite your input and comments . . .

Shoes,

I just have to ask ~ what is the purpose in dragging up a thread that has been dead 7 years?

And not only to resurrect it but to seemingly do so to start a fight?

I ask because there have been several of this type of postings by "newbies" recently. Granted I am not the smartest of people, yet these resurrecting of dead threads seem to be for no other purpose than to stir conflict and dissension.

If I am wrong please forgive me. It is just the way it appears to me.

Have a blessed day! May you see God's fingerprints in it.
REJOICE! =)
Mary

Wow -- this is an old thread! My opinion about Benny Hinn's teachings hasn't changed over the seven years since this thread ran its (first) course.

However, one thing that has bothered me recently about Benny Hinn has less to do with his wild claims, false prophesies, message of "health" and "wealth" or extremely exorbitant (almost hedonistic) lifestyle based off of the prodded giving of church goers.

Rather, I have been thinking about his family.

Benny Hinn's wife filed for divorce in 2010. I'm not certain whether the petition for divorce has been granted. However, I remember when the story broke in newspapers, television news and internet news sites. Benny Hinn accepted some of the blame for not having been there for his wife.

A few months later, Hinn was back in the newspapers when a tabloid photographed a still-married Benny Hinn and divorced Paula White holding hands while vacationing in Rome. They both initially denied an "affair," yet Benny Hinn eventually acknowledged a "friendship" and later said that it was "over."

Last year, Strang Communications (Hinn's publisher) sued Hinn in court for violating a morality clause associated with his "inappropriate relationship" with Paula White. The publisher wanted the advance for Hinn's upcoming book returned.

In light of all of this (and I don't pretend to know what is true and what is not), you have to wonder how a man who claimed to be so prayerfully and spiritually minded could somehow violate a basic principle from the Word of God.

I Timothy 3:1-13 mentions the basic requirements for church leadership. Verses 4-5 read: "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?" This same precept is applied to deacons as well (I Timothy 3:12-13).

Benny Hinn, in the very least, accepted fault for his wife having filed for marital separation by admitting to have "neglected" his wife and family in favor of "ministry." It makes you wonder how a man who claimed to have been endowed with supernatural gifts from the Lord -- including "discernment" and "knowledge" -- could violate such a simple precept. You would think that a man who would prophesy to millions would have had some insight about the condition of his family and marriage.

Further, Hinn has continued to violate those simple precepts when he continues -- unimpeded -- to stand behind pulpits and continue as if nothing important happened. The man should have been shaken to the core...to the point of stepping down from EVERYTHING. He should have shut it all down and found a place to get alone with God. But this would have spelled the cessation of his "career."

Sadly, I think that this is a terrible problem in today's church. The position of a "pastor" or "missionary" is now a CAREER. It isn't a high "calling" that is treated with reverence. Men often go to school to become a pastor. I trust that many feel (or think that they feel) a call to such a position, but I visited a Bible school where hopeful future pastors partied on the weekends as much as any fraternity in the secular universities that I attended (albeit without booze).

I would hold a great deal of respect for a pastor who announced that he needed to step down from the pulpit -- even for a time -- until he could get his house in order. Who cares what the board, deacons or elders thought? Who cares if they encouraged OTHERWISE? The fact remains that a man's family is suffering and that man continues to climb behind a pulpit and preach things while he is neglecting what matters the most!

I have met one man who did that.

I learned that an older gentleman in a congregation that I visited on occasion (while in high school) had once been a pastor of the very church he attended. I suspected that he may have had some moral failing which prompted him to "step down." This just wasn't the case. His children were young...entering middle school and high school...and he was having some issues with them.

His children weren't engaging in vile public behavior that would likely bring reproach to their congregation. In fact, no one was even aware of what he was seeing. Rather, he simply felt that they were just slowly fading in spiritual strength. So, he prayed about it and subsequently announced his resignation. He said that his ministry was first to his wife and children and that he wanted to be a good pastor to his family before he could ever pastor the congregation.

What a fantastic example! This man went out and applied for jobs in the community. He found a decent job and was still working there when I spoke with him. By then, his kids had since graduated and married. However, they are all serving the Lord wholeheartedly.

As a result of placing his family second (after God), this man was willing to give up his "career" as a minister in order to be a good steward of his wife and children. What a legacy to leave for that congregation and his children! That is a wonderful display of love!

Sadly, I suspect that many ministers would have a difficult time to do this. Their positions are now "career" positions. There is a level of "prestige" attached to their title. As a result, how often do we see the children of pastors and missionaries turn away from God or turn toward all manners of immoral behavior?

Oddly enough, Benny Hinn's children were all grown up. Yet, his career and status may have prevented him from "seeing" something that simple communication could have accomplished. He neglected his wife...and then continued to stand behind pulpits after she left him. Regardless of his doctrinal views and claims (many of which I personally oppose), this man should have shut everything down! He should have spent whatever time was necessary to make things right with his wife and family. If it didn't work, then he shouldn't have jumped behind the "career pulpit" with that sort of example.

I apologize if this sounds harsh. However, I am reminded of so many broken families in the church...and how that it can be a reflection of broken homes (often silently so) in parsonages across the nation. I am also reminded of an old song that Don Francisco sang many years ago:

STEEPLE SONG
by Don Francisco

I don't care how many buses you own
Or the size of your sanctuary
It doesn't matter how steep your steeple is
If it's sittin' on a cemetery
I don't care if you pave your parking lot
Or put pads upon your pews
What good is picture perfect stage
If you're missin' all the cues?

I don't care if your pastor's super-powered
And your program's always new
What you need is love and truth
And men are going to come to you
It doesn't matter that you know the Bible
If it's all just in your head
The thing I need to ask you is
Have you done the things I said?

Do you love your wife?
For her and for your children
Are you layin' down your life?
What about the others?
Are you livin' as a servant to
Your sisters and your brothers?
Do you make the poor man beg you for a bone?
Do the widow and the orphan cry alone?

I don't care if you pray for miracles
I don't care if you speak with tongues
I don't care if you said you love Me
In every song you've sung
It doesn't matter that your sacrifice of praise
Is loud enough to raise the dead
The thing I need to ask you is
Have you done the things I said?

Repeat Chorus

Lord, when were You a prisoner
That we did not come to You?
When was it that we saw You sick
That we didn't follow through
Every time you turned your head
And pretended not to see
When you did it not to the least of these
You did it not to Me

Do you love your wife?
With all you've got inside you
Are you layin' down your life?
What about the others?
Are you living as a servant
To your sisters and your brothers?
Do you make the poor man beg you for a bone?
Do the widow and the orphan cry alone?