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Rock Music.

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Tomo07

Greetings brothers & sisters in Christ, hope & pray you are all well under the protection and blessings of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I am doing some research into rock music and it's affects on people. Wondering if there is any sermons or information here on SI. Yes I have listened to some already they deal with bands froms the seventies, Music has come along way since then. Looking for some information on modern bands and even pop music & so called 'Christian Rock'. If not here then prehaps some links. Music today is so damaging, once it was rock music however now it is in all forms of music even instrumental music & the church.
we need to know it's affects and motives on it's listens as it is amied at todays young generation. the Britney Spears, Katty Perrys and Lady Gaga's are having a huge impact on our children, through their music & lyrics. these are labeled as Easy Listing or Pop music, therefore how damaging are the rock bands of today?
Praise God for the Blood, his protection and guidence for his children. But what about the lost? the masses. these recording artists have a huge impact on their thoughts actions desires & emotions. not to mention that kids today Idolize their stars. what are they involved in unknowingly when they listen to certain bands/singers? what is taking place? The Devil owns the music scene, and his agendas, beliefs and desires are being supported & preached through these artists.
Anyway I could go on & on, then there's Hollywood and movies! ( don't get me started! )

Any help would be much appreciated, Tomo07.

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sermonindex

Here is a message by David Wilkerson speaking on Rock Music:


"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.... And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness" (Isaiah 8:20, 22).

Last night I attended a Christian music festival. I will never forget what I saw, and I can truly say it was a heartbreaking experience. Since leaving the concert I have been weeping for hours, groaning in the Spirit feeling the wrath of a holy God burning against what I saw.

I went to the festival because the "star performer" featured last night had been in my office just hours before, crying, telling me how much he loved Jesus, how sincere he was, how he wanted to learn more about holiness. He told me my written messages convicted him. His words sounded right - his attitude seemed humble. At his request I went to hear him and his group because he assured me I would not be offended.

My heart is now so set on the massive human need in New York City, and my great concerns now have to do with rescuing last souls from drugs, alcohol and demon possession. I did not want to get involved anymore in the matter of rock and roll, heavy metal, and punk music in the church. I felt I had said enough on the subject and I told the musician so when he sat in my office. We had prayed together and I hugged him when he left my office.

I went last night with an open heart, full of love and compassion - for him, for all Christian musicians, and especially for the 3,000 or so young people attending the festival. I sat through two devotional-type songs, then I sat attentively listening as the musician testified about what he said Christ had done in his life. No preacher anywhere could have spoken with more conviction and sincerity - the words were right. He spoke of separation, of being obedient to Jesus, of winning souls, of prayer, of holy matrimony (he was married), of living a holy life. I prayed as he spoke, "Dear Lord, maybe I misjudged this musician and his hard rock group. Maybe you are doing something new in using the music the ungodly prefer, to win them - to get their attention, to attract them so they can be ministered to. Lord, I am willing to rejoice in hearing You preached, in any manner, from any group - if You are present in it - if your Holy Spirit is blessing it."

I was honestly questioning if my writings about the music of devils in God's house were just old-fashioned prejudices or simply my distaste for rock music. Was it just so much fuss about nothing? Yet something was not quite right. There was an inner tug at my heart making me ill at ease. I reasoned, "If Satan is camouflaged in this somehow, if there is a leaven of evil - it will be revealed. Satan always reveals himself in one way or another."

Suddenly the singer yelled in the microphone, "Jesus is coming - He is going to crack the skies - get ready!" The song was entitled, "Crack The Skies." Suddenly smoke was billowing out of smoke machines, the pounding beat was turned up to a frenzied pitch, eerie lights began flashing, the musicians stood like phantoms rising from a murky swamp. It was ghostly, weird, strange - and the crowd went wild - they seemed to love it. At the same festival, a wild spiked hair group had entertained - with painted faces, prancing about like homosexual peacocks.

At first, I couldn't believe what I was seeing on stage. I said out loud, "This can't be happening at a Christian festival - they can't do this to my Jesus! These people can't be this blind - the leaders of this youth ministry can't be so undiscerning! Oh God - what has happened to your church that its leaders, its people, can't see the evil of this abomination?"

Suddenly I was on the ground, on my back, weeping and sobbing, and groaning in the Spirit. I sat up and took another look at the stage. I was horrified by what I saw in the Spirit. I saw demonic images rising from that stage! I heard Satan laughing! Laughing at all the blind parents - the blind shepherds - the blind youth - the backslidden church! It was an overt manifestation of Satan - worse than anything I've ever seen on the streets of New York.

I stood to my feet, literally shaking with the fear of God - consumed with a sense of His holy wrath against such wickedness. I rushed into the crowd crying at the top of my voice - Ichabod! (The glory of the Lord has departed!) Ichabod! I ran through the crowd, pushing aside chairs, weeping, shouting at the top of my voice, "Ichabod - this is satanic! Stop! God is grieved!" I was mostly ignored and I think most thought I was a crazy lunatic. I doubt anybody knew who I was - the musicians could not hear me, and the crowd was too tight to allow me near the stage. I wanted to get to a microphone and cry like an Elijah - "This is vomit on the table of the Lord! Who are your teachers, that you could be so blind, so worldly, so deceived!? What kind of blasphemy is this?"

I will not shut up on this matter! I will not be silent while multitudes of our Christian youth are being deceived by smooth-talking wolves in sheep's clothing! True love demands that the truth be told.

What hurt my spirit the most, and what is so hard for me to understand, is that this particular group, and many others, attend Pentecostal churches. The musician I refer to told me he gave up drugs, drinking, evil sex and rock and roll performing when he got saved. He cut his long, feminine hair, he quit dressing like an exhibitionist and began to change all his ways. It was a pastor who encouraged him to "quit looking so square and use rock and roll to reach the kids." A teacher, in his sixties, travels on occasion with them, teaching them and encouraging them in their evil methods. According to their teacher, rock and roll is gong to be the "normal music in all Pentecostal and evangelical churches."

It's now the middle of the night and I can't sleep! I can't stop weeping inside. I am shut in with God in my study diligently asking Him to show me what is happening, because hours ago I saw a few thousand young Christians, with uplifted hands, thinking it was Jesus, when it was most assuredly the devil. Has the church - or what man calls the church - so backslidden that there is no more discernment whatsoever? Has God given up on some who are set on bringing devilish practices into the realm of worship?

Now I wonder - "Who dares teach such a Jesus - a Jesus who winks at deception? How blatantly they are mislearning Jesus Christ! What Jesus are they preaching?"


from: http://www.tscpulpitseries.org/english/1980s/ts870803.html

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sermonindex

This also is a very important booklet on the subject:

Rock Music - Where from, Where to?
M. Basilea Schlink
52 pages, ISBN 3 87209 634 6
The shades and nuances in music can be very subtle, and the devil is an expert at making something appear harmless until you notice - often too late - what you have let yourself in for. That's why I'm so thankful for this booklet. Germany

from: http://www.kanaan.org/international/catalogue/books2.htm

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Tomo07

Thankyou Greg, David really is moved in & by the Spirit in this account, How sad it is to hear of these things happinging in the so called 'House of God'. I can assure you any churches who entertain or allow this in their church, had the Holy Spirit depart as they entered or along time before that. This is so damaging, when will we take notice, go to our knees in pray about this and stop sitting on our hands. How could this be? and worst of all the mojority of the church is not only blind to it but allowing it and taking part.

Christian Rock is so much more damaging that secular rock, because they do all this in the name of Christ! absolute blasphmey and insults. it is so misleading and against scripture, yet millions around the world embrace it in our churches. They are being feed lies by the enemy and believe in this.
As David Said they are wolves in sheeps clothing and they have intergrated into the church in such a deep level. How have we become so blind, God help us.

H
hulsey

One of my friends who knew David Wilkerson at the time of this told me that bro Wilkerson could barely speak for two days he was so upset after that concert.

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TMK

Tomo07-

How do you define "rock music?"

Seems to me that it encompasses a huge spectrum.

I am interested in the type(s) you find objectionable, or more specifically, sinful.

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proudpapa

One of the weirdest events that I ever attended was when I was young, the church I attended at the time heard that Josh Mcdowell was coming to town, so the entire church went to see him, What we did not know was that we where going to an electric guitar head banging acid rock concert, we all thought we where going to listen to a Christian speaker but rather it turned out to be a News Boys concert in which non of us new anything about at the time, after hours of listining to ear drum damaging racket, Josh came out for a few minutes and said a few words and gave an alter call in which tons of people ran forward all teary eyed, of which you would of expected so many going forward to have caused a revivle in a community as small as ours.
But later we found out that it was a staged alter call for what ever reason,

Later our youth Sunday School teacher told us he would have rather have taken us all to a led zeppelin concert, because at least then we would have known it was bad.

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wayneman

As a teenager I met Larry Norman, "the father of Christian rock." A lady in our church had four backstage passes and I was invited to come along with her, her husband and the youth leader.

During the concert, Larry said, "The Pentecostals inventd the three-chord rock progression. The Blues came out of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. So you can't say rock is the devil's music, because it came out of the church. You can't say punk rock is the devil's music, because punk rock ain't music!"

As we headed to the stage door afterward, we walked past a long line of people trying to get backstage. Most of them were groupies - girls in black miniskirts with huge hair and about ten layers of makeup on their faces.

I was totally bewildered: "What are THEY doing here?"

After Larry died, the truth came out about how he really lived his life: adultery, fornication, abandoned children, etc.

The music that came out of the Jesus People movement is some of the best I've ever heard. But I have also attended the sort of concerts proudpapa describes and have to agree with Bro. Wilkerson.

Whatever Christian rock used to be, it is an abomination now.

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sermonindex

Pastor Joe Schimmel has some stuff on Rock music. I think its mostly about classic rock. He pastors Blessed Hope Chapel in Simi Valley CA. He has podcasts on itunes.

On another note: I like David Crowder Band who has artistic taste as well as a deep love of God coming through his music. He is known for being emergent-friendly. I like the way he uses rock influences and techno influences. I don't feel the devil is deceiving me through it. But I'm open for correction.


blessings

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Tomo07

Dear TMK

you said, quote.

'How do you define "rock music?"

Seems to me that it encompasses a huge spectrum.

I am interested in the type(s) you find objectionable, or more specifically, sinful'

Indeed you are correct, Rock Music takes on a huge spectrum. There is obviously the secular bands/artist, some of which are aware of the satanic influences behind their music and will openly admit it.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/devils_music.htm

There are also thoses that are not aware so much however, nevertheless the are influenced by the enemy, and are full of sinfull lyrics.

'What is not of the Spirit, is of the flesh. And the Flesh is a emnity with the Spirit'.

Unfortunatly this style of music has infultrated the church as well. Rock music is the main culprit, however all types of music have in some form or another sin related topics. weather it be Sex, fornication or adultry, drugs, violence, alcoholism ect.

You only need to listen to the lyrics and subject matter to see or understand this, I am sure If sincere' the Holy Spirit would guide and show you this.

Some other styles of music such as 'Pop/Chart Music' or 'Easy Listening' is also damaging and full of sinful lyrics and subject matters.

The above reply post from brother Greg Gordon, shows this as he shared the account of David Wilkerson.

Pure, 'Spirit Filled' Holy Worship, should bring his church into the very presence of God through the power of the Holy Spirit. Also it should glorify Christ & point us to him.

We need to ask the question, if this is not the case, is it really true worship that is edifying?

Many so called 'Christian Rock Bands'. do not point us to Christ, they are not glorifying Christ or bringing us into right relationships with him, therefore we need to question if they are even of God.

Unfortunatly it has become a buisness for many artists in the church, where the Listeners are there to idolize and worship the band rather that Christ. Worship music has become a big multi million dollar buisness in recent years, it's all about tours, and merchandise, singings and photos with the stars, rather that worshiping and looking to Christ. Many listeners are to, caught up listening and following the band/artist rather than the Lord himself.

Christ is the head & we are the body. it is suppost to be all about him, unfortunatly some have made it about them, and I do not believe that is right, after all the word does say.

'No flesh will glory in my presence' - Jesus Christ.

This is the meaning of true worship, to bring us into his presence, & Praise and worship him for his wonderful grace through faith. Any Bands who claim to be Christian, should agree and do this, otherwise they should be questioned.

in all we do & say, may we do so in a way that is pleasing and glorifying to Christ, for his kingdom and glory, Amen.

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Tomo07

Theres only one 'Christian Rock'

and it's not of the music type, rather the one true rock, the rock of ages, the chief conerstone, 'Jesus Christ'.

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TMK

I am just wondering if you lump a band like "Hillsong United" into what you are talking about.

I have never found anything objectionable about them. The lyrics are always solid; however they do have songs that sound like "rock music."

Kids will not be reached today with organ music. It is just a fact.

TMK

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Tomo07

TMK Said, Quote -

'Kids will not be reached today with organ music. It is just a fact'.

Kids will not be reached with any kind of music, wouldn't matter if it were christian rock or more traditional organ music.
It's not the music that draws people to Christ, it's the Holy Spirit, The Spirit can use music to reach people, but only if it's spirit filled, and not of the flesh.

There is only one way to Christ & salvation, this is based on repentance through conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit. You cannot have salvation without repetence, you cannot have salvation but by repentance, this is the ONLY way.
Unfortunatly most Christrian Rock bands , or contemperary christian music movment ( CCM ) do not portray or support this. This is a fact.

Man cannot reach people, Most of what is done is flesh, denominations, mans rules & regulations. God however will still bless and use some of these methods, but we must put Christ first.

'You cannot know the Father but by the Son, & you cannot know the Son unless the Spirit draws you.

Did we find Christ when we were lost? or did Christ in his mercy find and call us? How could we that are dead in trespasses & Sin, go looking for Christ, let alone find him? if we were living in sin & didn't even know him? How can you look for something you don't know is there?

The Word says 'While we were yet sinners Christ died for us'.

As I said in the last post, The word says,

'No flesh will glory in my presence'.

To sum it all up, A christian Man Cannot reach a sinner, it is the Holy Spirit within him, that compels him. And only the Spirit can draw a sinner to Christ through conviction that leads to repentance, there is not other way.

I personally, do not support Hillsong. I find they have become to big & commercial, they are more of a buisness, with merchandise and tours ect.. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but Christ must be put first.

Just think, do most of the younger generation go to a concert to love and adore Christ? thanking and praising him for his love and mercy? putting him first?

Or are they there because Hillsong are in town? looking at the concerts it looks to me that they are more about themselves than Christ. Also I have found that they have mis quoted scripture on there albums, using them out of context or leaving parts out.

There is alot more to it that just the lyrics themselves. Sometimes it is very sutle, it's not going to always be obvious. I am happy to look into Hillsong and send you information that I have found during my investigations if you like.

Please look up for yourself, do some of your own reaserch. Don't take my word for it. If you are genuine and sincere the Lord will direct you to find the truth, just ask him.

Paul said. -

'It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me'.

This is what we should all strive for to be nothing more than a vessel, A 'living sacrifice' Living for Christ and His glory, nothing more. that the old man would die.

Oh that I could say this, with conviction and true meaning.

Peace and blessings to you brother, Tomo07.

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Tomo07

Anybody familiar with Bob larson & his book on rock?

Was releasted back in the late seventies I think & is no longer in print.
Seems in my opinion he has gone off track somewhat, but his early stuff it good and informative.

Still avaliable sometimes off ebay or specialist book stores. Exposes the dangers on the Rock scene & it's connections with the occult.

Am looking for books such as these, Hopefully a little more recent.

D
DEADn

http://discerningmusic.wordpress.com/tag/william-branham/


This makes for a good read though I don't agree with all of it. I read a different article by this guy that made more sense than any other preacher who wrote on the subject. I am a rock music fan and a goth fan BUT as I have said in other posts I don't listen to music as much as I used to.

John

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Solomon101

Below are the lyrics to the song David Wilkerson specifically mentions.
I don't think you will find a single unbiblical element to them. In fact if you are pretty Biblically literate you will recognize several specific scriptures being expressed in this tune

In addition I am not aware of any accusations of wrong doing ever being addressed at Mylon specifically or Broken Hear over all. Almost all of them eventually went into other ministries and bore much fruit.

You will also notice in his writing that David Wilkerson admitted to the solid message that they presented. He seemed to just not like the "musical style" it came in.

Here are the lyrics. I ask again, what's the problem with them.

CRACK THE SKY by Mylon Lefevre

Sometimes at night I close my eyes and wish
Sometimes I wonder if I'd ever be missed
If you came for me, if you came for me

Remember asking for a whole lot of things
I never begged you for the riches of kings
But I've one request and I hold it up to you

Come on and crack the sky for me
Come on and crack the sky
And take me home, take me home
Come on and crack the sky for me
Come on and crack the sky
And take me home, take me home tonight

Though you got me where you want me to be
I know you got a plan for using me
But I long for you, but I long for you

So there I was til your ready for me
I don't know if I can guarantee
That at no matter what price
I'll never try to get to you

Come on and crack the sky for me
Come on and crack the sky
And take me home
Take me home (take me home tonight)
Come on and crack the sky for me
Come on and crack the sky for me
And take me home- Lord won't you take me home
Take me home - Lord won't you take me home
Come on and crack the sky for me - tonight
Take me home, take me home - take me home.

end lyrics

Again I ask. Where is there a problem with the God honoring, Biblically based,lyrics that cry out to experience Jesus and encourage one to keep themselves ready to meet Him? Well........

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SkepticGuy

i have 2 laugh when I read sum of the posts here. the newsboys are acid rock? that terminology went out of date in the early 70’s when the newsboys were in diapers. if u want to win a discussion and sound like u know what ur talking about u cant sound 4 decades out of date. as soon as u use the term “acid rock” to describe any music in the past 30 yrs u automatically disqualify urself in the ears of ur listener (reader).

i met mylon lefevre and broken heart at least 10 times back in the day. worked backstage at several concerts helping to unload and setup. i still keep in touch with several members of his old band. almost all of the former members of broken heart 2day are either pastoring churches, leading worship in a church, missionaries, or still producing music in some shape or form. mylon suffered a heart attack around 1990 which spelled the end of the broken heart days, and once fully recovered he became a full time evangelist. while I do not subscribe to all of his teaching (he leans toward prosperity gospel) he has an amazing testimony and reaches a lot souls.

also, as u read this thing by Wilkerson keep in mind how OLD this article is. mylon lefevre will turn 70 yrs old next year.

back in the 1980’s when mylon & broken heart were one of the biggest bands in christian music, they were not perfect (who is?) but they were all about the ministry. they never sold out. And their music was FAR from the “hard rock” Wilkerson describes. at best they were top40 pop. mylon was one of the nicest and sincere people u would ever want to meet, and he loved the lord with all his heart.

much is wrong w/christian music 2day. there is no doubt but I don’t think it’s the music itself. i think it’s the idol that christians have made of it. we can make an idol out of anything. parents can make an idol out of their child, but we don’t call the child evil and throw it away do we?

calling any form of music “evil” is intellectually dishonest and displays an incredible amount of fear and ignorance. christians have notoriously been afraid of things like music, art, science, math etc down through the ages. history shows that christians condemn or call "evil" those things which they either do not understand, or do not have a taste for. and in the end the debate over music simply comes down to taste. i do not care for sum of the music my daughter or son like becuz its not my taste. it would be easy to call it evil and condemn it, but the truth is i simply just dont like it. but its not evil.

unless we r talking about disco. i do believe disco music is evil.

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proudpapa

Hi SkepticGuy

SkepticGuy wrote ///i have 2 laugh when I read sum of the posts here. the newsboys are acid rock? that terminology went out of date in the early 70’s when the newsboys were in diapers. if u want to win a discussion and sound like u know what ur talking about u cant sound 4 decades out of date. as soon as u use the term “acid rock” to describe any music in the past 30 yrs u automatically disqualify urself in the ears of ur listener (reader).///

I was not alive in the 70's, after doing some research You are right, acid rock is not the perfect genre to lable the news boys, even though it is not an uncommon mistake to apply rock and heavy metal with the phrase "acid rock"
When I used the word acid rock, I was referring to my perspective of the seemingly hard type of rock with the headbanging in a mosh pit type of setting ((which to be technical did not contain body surfing from my remeberance)), eletric guitars, drums and bizarre screaming so loud that the lyrics are drowened out, of which was my experience at the news boys concert, it also included very disturbing video footage being played on a screen next to the stage.
call it acid rock, call it heavey metal, call it hard rock, call it pop rock, call it alternative rock, call it contemporary Christian music,
The fact and my point is that it was very disturbing to me and others whom thought we where going to listen to a what seemed at the time as a conservative speaker

Here is another persons experience very simmaler to my own.


The Invasion Begins!
A Review Of the News Boys "Take Me To Your Leader Tour"
Article published in The Christian Conscience June 1997

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the days leading to May 12, 1997 at 7:30p.m. we were warned by radio and television our town would be invaded by the band News Boys along with two others as they came to Rapid City South Dakota’s Civic Center Arena. It was then I decided a follow-up article was needed to the article my wife and I put together about DC Talk last June. The article examined the unchristian behavior and lack of a gospel message to the unsaved persons attending these concerts. After our experience last year, I was prepared with earplugs to help drown the heavy bass and I needed them!

Last year in the DC Talk concert I witnessed the behavior seen in the secular rock scene of "body-surfing, moshing and head banging" this concert was calm in comparison --- but it was not for a lack of trying, there was no "mosh pit" so they simply were not set up for it. During the concert a News Boys video was shown exhibiting this behavior and even one of our local "Christian" radio station representatives jumped into the crowd and was "body-surfed" back onto the stage. Other irresponsible behavior by the crowd was subdued by the security at the stage. One teenage boy bared his top half to the crowd danced around on stage twice before security could catch him and remove him. --- Look and see for yourself the behavior which goes with the music! This is the true spirit of "Rock n’ Roll" not godly Christian music. Eph 5:19-20.

Even the review of this tour by our local newspaper saw the problem with the News Boys, titled:" "Newsboys' message lost on latest CD" and comments such as: "Although most of the choruses are straightforward, the verses are hard to follow, a flaw that serves to trivialize the band's Christian message." and "Built on lyrics that leave too many holes to be filled, the band's message gets lost somewhere in the alternative music." With this as an overview I will now give you my first hand account of the News Boys "Take Me To Your Leader" tour.

As I walked into the Civic Center I noticed the ambulance parked by the arena doors and while entering saw the young man in front of me snuffing out his cigarette before going in. Yes, here I am again, the only member of the crowd in suit and tie, boy did I get some strange looks, mostly from the teens and some adults who had donned their "grunge" clothes. I found myself a seat towards the back of the arena and awaited the concerts’ start. Looking around I counted 20 speakers on each side hanging above the stage though in comparison they were not as large as the ones used by DC Talk. The crowd appeared to be a composed of more young teens than the DC Talk concert, definitely more kids that appeared to be 10 years old or younger.

The announcer from one of our "Christian" radio stations came on stage to introduce the first group "3rd Day" and said to the crowd loudly, "gotta get pumped!" He went onto say how the News Boys "Take Me To Your Leader" tour was voted No# 1 by CCM Contemporary Christian Music Magazine. The announcer then introduced a new "stand-up comic," Bob Smiley --- now we have stand-up comics for Christ too?! Hmmm, maybe we should open a Christian night club for him! After some poor attempts at humor the band 3rd Day came on stage. They opened with a piece from the secular song "Celebrate," then went into playing loud hard rock music. I will say the first two bands were to be exceeded in volume by the News Boys. Other than this band encouraging the audience to jump up and down you could hardly understand a word of their lyrics. Prior to the concert I read their lyrics but unfortunately I seriously doubt anyone understood them as they were drown out by their heavy beat. After about forty-five minutes they finished their session and the radio announcers returned to "rev" up the crowd more. One of them got the crowd to start making a "hoo’ing" noise then said to the effect, "90% of your time at the concert tonight should be screaming and losing your mind and the other 10% left for your drive home. The comic returned wearing multiple tee-shirts and gave a sales pitch for them and the dog-tags, pendants, crosses and posters of the bands and how all money made from these go straight to the bands.

The group "Plankeye" was then introduced. Plankeye was very much like the first group, 3rd Day. With their loud music you could hardly understand a word of what was said because it was drown out by the guitars. Plankeye in a short break shared more of a Christian message (one maybe, two minutes) than any of the others. The band member spoke of "no excuses," "Jesus came to give life abundantly" --- but no mention of how to know Jesus unless you take their next "slow" song as the gospel which says in part, "Please take my life away to give it away to Jesus." --that is no gospel either. Then in about a minute they returned to the heavy metal sound. At a point in one of their songs I noticed a child, maybe 8 or 9 years old holding his ears and his Dad or guardian leading him out of the concert arena, a few minutes later he returned with cotton freshly inserted in his ears! A testimony based solely on action alone!

At the end of the Plankeye session one of the band members said of the teens who were bouncing at the front of the stage, remarking how they were "jumping because Jesus made a difference in their lives." I put this right up there with "holy laughter," we now have "holy jumping!" I believe it was a member of Plankeye who went into a commercial for "World Vision" and how the News Boys had teamed together with them to feed and educate some of the poor of the world. He also mentioned they teach them with the Bible. They brought out a small screen and turned on a commercial saying what they can do with just $20 a month. At the end of the commercial a sales pitch was given to get you to sign up on sheets in the foyer of the arena. Intermission time.

During the intermission some notable music was played over the speakers. Movie theme songs to Close Encounters, Superman, 2001, The Star Wars Series and others. --- The whole bit was really an introduction to the alien encounter I was about to experience! Alien to Christ that is! At the end of the intermission the lights are dimmed and the crowd gets as wild as it gets for the night, cheering, hoooping, yelling and stomping their feet for the News Boys to start. –Was this a concert for Jesus or a football game!? Then they turned out all the lights. The sound of a deep bass drone fills the arena for a minute or two and the theme to "Star Wars" starts playing. Immediately after, strobe lights turn on underneath what is supposed to be three "flying saucers" descending onto the stage. I then noticed the band members on top of these "saucers" dressed in space suits and lights on top of their heads. In addition to the strobe lights, black lights are used to enhance the special effects. As soon as the "saucers" landed the band members jumped off and onto the stage and started into a very loud rock music piece. The band members were jumping up and down and the crowd jumped with them. The bass beat, just like or worse then DC Talk, went right through my body. The beat combined with the strobes and black lights even caused me to experience a bit of nausea. The lyrics to the News Boys music proved to be more unintelligible than the other bands with the exception of a slow piece entitled, "Lets talk about love." The News Boys, like DC Talk, are fond of the strange lights and using moving hypnotic patterns, similar to a sixties rock group. At one point the music used an extremely heavy deep bass while you heard an enchanting but unintelligible voice. The "saucers" were then lifted up sideways and became large video viewing screens. At this point they showed clips from their movie "Down Under the Big Top" and they sang a song about joining the circus. During this part of the session they played secular music "Funky town," and another piece I remember from Peter Frampton but I do not remember the title. Next, one of the News Boys crew went down in front of the stage with a live video camera, eyeing the band up close. As the lead singer went on singing he got his face very close to the camera and it gave him the appearance of having his eyes darkened due to the lack of light, and with his bald head it was quite a sight; not a pleasant one! In one of the next pieces the heavy bass beat and guitar continued but the video was of the band riding ATVs and motorcycles. This would not really be interesting except to say they were performing jumps into the air where they would even dump the motorcycle -- a potentially dangerous thing to do or promote!

The band made some attempts at humor, even the lyrics had some silly remarks that would make some laugh --- but there is no laughing when I put their words next to scriptures. There is no gospel message and the name of Jesus is not said even one time in the "Take Me To Your Leader" album or the previous album "Going Public." There are references made to God, Lord and one to the cross ---that’s all, only unclear references to being a Christian. When reviewing the lyrics I noticed another prominent C-Rocker, Steve Taylor, who wrote or assisted in the writing in eight of the eleven songs on the album. I found this ironic since Taylor has been criticized in the past for the same lack of gospel in his music!

They went into a dueling drum piece about midway through the concert which was almost too much to bear for the shear thumping of the drums. The incessant drumming truly reminded me of my unsaved years. As an unsaved teen I’m sure I would have cheered them on as this crowd did. It ended with one of the drummers throwing one of his drumsticks into the crowd! That was really stupid --- who knows where it could have landed and that was not the first time the band threw objects into the crowd. After the "duel" they went in to one of their earlier albums "Going Public" and sang the song "Shine" which is obviously quite popular with their fans. You really had to struggle to hear the lyrics until they sang the chorus,

"Shine, Make’em wonder what you’ve got, Make’em wish that they were not, On the outside looking bored, Shine, Let it shine before all men, Let’em see good works, and then Let’em glorify the Lord." Reading the lyrics I saw the rest of the song as nothing but nonsense.

This song is typical of their music giving vague references to the gospel, maybe not as abstract as those of DC Talk but unclear none the less. Following this song, they brought back the weird lights and video clips on their saucer screens, clips of different leaders and pieces of the news, TV shows, even one from a nasty cartoon which is put on by MTV –B&B. Then the music stopped and what is to be their gospel message began. The band member who spoke said to the effect, we should have a passion for our faith, that people should see we are different, we should be salty Christians, that we should tell our friends what Jesus did in our lives and how God has changed us. He told how salt preserves, and how we can help stop the spread of decay and corruption and how if we lose our saltiness we are good for nothing. The band member then gave his version of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, saying these were people just interested in "doing their own thing." He spoke of how Abraham bartered with God to spare the cities, and then he used this reasoning to say God destroyed these cites due to their lack of righteous people, not sin!? I listened very carefully to the points he made and scripture does not agree at all:

"But the men of Sodom [were] wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly." Genesis 13:13

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" Genesis 18:20

"And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them." Genesis 19:5

"The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide [it] not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves." Isaiah 3:9

"Sinners before the LORD exceedingly," "because their sin is very grievous," "bring them out unto us, that we may know them," "and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide [it] not." The people of Sodom were evil, wicked sinners and demonstrated it in homosexual behavior! They were not only, "doing their own thing" they were a reprobate and perverse people. The News Boys band member speaking, changed the words of God into a completely different meaning, softening the judgment of God upon sin. There is more than a problem with semantics, this is false teaching! In conclusion, he said to those who didn’t know Jesus to ask those they came with or ask someone around them about what Jesus did in their lives and he said to the effect, before going back into their rock music, "I know you don’t want to hear anymore preaching." There may have been another couple of songs until the close of the concert with them climbing onto the now lowered platforms/saucers and raising them off back to the planet from which they came. –The invasion ended! But who won the battle? As the curtain closed a sheet was dropped down which read, "Live long and Prosper." -- A phrase which gets its popularity from the "Star Trek" series. For a group that puts down the New Age movement they do a great job promoting it!

You can call this a "Christian" concert if you wish -- but I promise you it is not. Like DC Talk, maybe these are Christians singing Rock, but it is not Christian music. Eph. 5:19-20. In addition, the same unchristian behavior is the earmark for both of these concerts NOT a presentation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The so-called "preaching" left off a few of the most key elements like quoting scriptures! We as Christians are responsible to share the gospel with the unsaved Matt 28:19-20. Here are a few of the missing elements: First, we are sinners. Ro. 3:23. Second, we need a savior –Jesus Christ who died on a cross for our sins. Third, to ask God’s forgiveness by faith believing on the finished work of Jesus on the cross. And others were omitted from the preaching as it was with DC Talk. The News Boys as "salty Christians," or as ones with "a passion for their faith" failed miserably in their gospel presentation if their faith is in Jesus Christ.

Christians can have "fun" without all of the world's nonsense and fads. The idea we need these C-rock concerts to reach teens is bunk. What we are actually doing is telling them its "OK" to rock! My advice to C-rockers, is simple -- Repent! Quit trying to rationalize the behavior, quit distorting the Bible's teachings on music to make them fit what you are doing. The heathen -especially the homosexuals- do the same thing! Return or turn to the music that is truly spiritual. I have read a group of testimonies of mostly teenagers and the damage C-rock did to them. One of the known side-effects of this music is rebellion against parents and God! The folks of CCM need some hard looking at since they called this the number #1 tour for the year. It appears that the less you say of Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross for our redemption the more popular you are! Something is amuck in the Christian music scene and it comes down to the love of money, and a lack of a genuine love for lost souls. Many of the applications included do not apply to Christian music alone --- many have gone away from the faith and have adopted doctrines foreign to scriptures. Many of the same verses of scripture that reprove those who participate in Christian Rock speak just as strongly to those involved in the so-called "Holy Laughter" movement. The same ridiculous behavior, the same kinds of teaching permeate Christian Rock and the laughter movement --- the same spirit! The spirit of the anti-Christ! A simple word or two on what a spirit filled Christian does, shows the contrast!

Ephesians 5:18 - 21
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Colossians 3:16
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."

Being filled with the Spirit has what results? Speaking to yourselves in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, making melody in your heart to the Lord. Then we are to give thanks always, and submit to one another in the fear of God. Col. 3:16 closely parallels Eph. 5:18. Being filled means to let the word of Christ dwell in you richly! The behavior of Christian Rockers and the like are the opposite! So if our kids are attending these concerts saved and unsaved what are we really accomplishing??? Nothing, short of indoctrinating them to the rebellious rock scene. It is this writer’s heartfelt belief as alcohol leads to drugs, lessor drugs to harder drugs these so-called Christian Rockers are the pied-pipers with music leading to Hell. Using seductive methods to excite the emotions of our teens which include heavy bass, hypnotic lights, loud guitars and a variety of theatrics helping to strip away our teens inhibitions to perform acts in the flesh. This is seen in the bodysurfing, head-banging, moshing and jumping too! Secular rock concerts and the violence of these acts are clearly seen, it is riotous behavior they are introducing as Christian! (Read Romans 13:13-14) The Bible teaches much more on this subject which there is not enough room to go into here. To close here are a few more Bible references which will help the person serious about following Jesus Christ to leave the rock scene: 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, Exodus 32:17 – 19, Romans 12:1-2, 2 Timothy 3:16, Jeremiah 10:2, 2 Corinthians 5:15-17, Mark 9:42, James 4:4
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/newsboys.html


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SkepticGuy

i am not defending the current state of christian music, so dont misunderstand me. but at the same time i have been to see most of the bands u mentioned or mentioned in the article. i dont go to concerts much anymore because i've out grown it, but b4 i was saved i saw bands like van halen, iron maiden, alice cooper, ozzy, u name it. any1 who thinks concerts by the aforementioned christian bands are the same (or even from the same universe) as secular bands has been spared a lot of grief in their life. there is NO comparison. the attitude is totally different, the behavior of the crowd is WORLDS apart, the smells are even different. i have never once smelled beer and pot at a christian concert. every1 around u at a christian show is friendly and loving. u can leave ur stuff in ur chair and run to the bathroom and it will still be there when u get back. many bands have ballads (worship songs) and u can see hundreds of people with their hands raised in worship (to god, not the band!).

people enjoy the music and a good time can be had. that seems to be the litmus test for most christians: is the music enjoyable? if so, it's the devils music. if it isnt, then its gods music. where does this medieval minset come from?

he came to give us life, and life more abundant. most believers will not allow themselves 2 live the abundant life. thats a shame.

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DEADn

Well said SkepticGuy

Also want to point out that David Wilkerson was a country preacher at one time and very conservative. When a person from the country comes to the city it becomes as a culture shock and it was for him when he came to New York.

When it comes to music I am guessing that all David knew was hymns from the church and so when he comes across something harder it seems as if it just came from hell and Mylon's music definitely isn't hard. I first learned about him in high school when a classmate had his 'Crack the sky'. I found the music ok but not really rock and I was into rock at that time.

I do think that if rock music is a devil music the wrong thing to do is rail against it. It would be the same as treating a symptom and not the problem. Music can be a sensitive creature to many and especially kids. You don't attack that. You inform the mind and convict the heart.

I used to have a video cassette in which a guy took songs and analyzed the lyrics. He didn't attack any bands. He was simply asking what were the lyrics conveying and how is that affecting the thought life and were the lyrics true in what they were saying? I thought it was very through provoking.

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SkepticGuy

it is funny how that article manages to work homosexuality into the factor. if all else fails, convince the kids they are like homosexuals if they like christian rock. there is a lot of silliness in the church today.

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DEADn

This is a rabbit trail. What is more effective? a)Protesting a rock concert because it is of the devil.b) staying outside a rock concert and looking to help those coming out of the concert or talk to those who are hanging out outside anyway ( I did this before and was thanked for a pastor who was there for talking to a specific guy who had major issues). c) Use the lyrics of words to songs to analyze them against what the bible says and allow the fan to make us their own mind?

Just some thoughts.

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narrowpath

Satan is very clever. Many think that as long as the lyrics are biblical you are fine. This is just a shallow makeover. They even have an altar call after the concert and you get converts - converts from what and to what?

Do we not see that Rock Bands in tight clothing stand on stage in order to receive worship from the hyped up crowds?

This is sensual not spiritual. Do we not discern these things in the Spirit? Are we not offended?

I left a major denomination partly because they promote "Christian" Rock concerts.


Here is a biblical record of the first Christian rock concert:

Ex 32:5 So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it. And Aaron made a proclamation and said, “Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord.” 6 Then they rose early on the next day, offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

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sermonindex

One thing which cannot be ignored about what Mr Wilkerson shared regarding his reaction to the concert he attended and therefore cannot be overlooked is the depth of the effect it had on him. He shares that he fell onto the floor and wept. Can anyone here say they have ever experienced such a reaction to something? Further Mr Wilkerson also acknowledged his encounter with the lead singer before hand led him to question his own attitude and that itself led him to go to the concert. Moreover Mr Wilkerson reaffirmed his initial questioning of his own attitude to so-called “christian rock” music again as the lead singer shared before he began the concert proper. The turning point was precisely at the “scream” of the words “crack the sky” which clearly started the shocking descent of Mr Wilkerson into a process which on reading it sounds just like grieving. Another poster tells us that this grieving was so great that Mr Wilkerson was disturbed for several days afterwards. Now brethren I ask you in all sincerity was Mr Wilkerson simply exercising a mind of bigotry or was he psychologically disturbed in some way? Or was he grieved in his spirit as his testimony clearly bears witness too.

It is too simplistic to play the“country boy” card. You might as well say he was older than the performer and so could not “connect” with him. Yet this would be to completely deny what Mr Wilkerson shared in his article about meeting this young man and what was exchanged between them. As for the lyrics I have to tell you they read like a narcissistic determination to impose a rebellious heart onto others so as to provoke sympathy and I presume sales. In fact there is in the words an expressed desire to die and an expressed intention or threat to commit suicide. One would have to wonder where all this fits with either knowing the scriptures or the scriptures themselves. All I can see in these lyrics is a somewhat cynical presentation of acknowledging the truth concerning Christ and the obvious godly desire to know Him, yet expressed from the perspective of someone who has no intention of living a godly life. I believe that is generally called rebellion. It also fits perfectly with Mr Wilkerson’ account that the young man made a concerted effort to persuade him that he had a godly desire and that his presentation of Christ would not offend.

As for whether there was any thefts, or drugs or drink at his concert is a bit like asking if Satan ever comes as an angel of light or not. It would be astonishing if he came in any other guise to a "christian rock" concert. Mom and Dad would scarcely let little Harry and Beth go along now would they if Satan were intending to turn up as a dark satanic figure of terror and abuse! He probably saves that for the concerts which are fuelled by such perceptions.

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SkepticGuy

The turning point was precisely at the “scream” of the words “crack the sky”

i think there was sum exageration in mr wilkerson words. have u ever heard mylon lefevre's voice? he doesnt scream. his voice is actually quite soft and mellow, and speaks with a thick southern drawl. i saw them in concert at least 10 times and never once heard mylon scream anything. he is one of the most soft spoken people i have ever met.

wilkerson talks of girls pulling their hair and such things. i have been to so many christian concerts in the last 30 years i have never seen anything like what he describes, ever.

amrkelly, i am not trying to be argumenative, but it is quite obvious by ur post that u do not even know who the artist was that wilkerson is speaking of and have not been to a concert to see 4 urself.

i would rather base my thoughts on music on the word of god and NOT the over emotionalism of mr wilkerson. most of u here decry the emotional actions of people in toronto, brownsville, benny hinn crusades, ihop, and so on and so forth UNLESS someone's emotions support ur own thoughts on sumthing. then a man's emotional response is tantamount to the gospel.

i am a skeptic by nature. i think wilkerson was sincere in what he wrote, but i think he exagerated what he was saying and his reaction was either exagerated too, or was simply a display of over emotionalism.

since i first joined this discussion this morning i pulled out an old mylon & broken heart CD (big world) and its laughable that this music caused any1 2 react in such a way. 80's pop music. its a stretch to even consider it "hard" rock music.

and mylon's voice is just as smooth and soulful as it ever was. no screaming.

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SkepticGuy

i think mylon would get a charge out this discussion. just to know that almost 30 yrs later people are still debating the wilkerson article about him.

i may send this link to him and sum of the old broken heart band members.

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sermonindex

Suddenly the singer yelled in the microphone, "Jesus is coming - He is going to crack the skies - get ready!" The song was entitled, "Crack The Skies." Suddenly smoke was billowing out of smoke machines, the pounding beat was turned up to a frenzied pitch, eerie lights began flashing, the musicians stood like phantoms rising from a murky swamp. It was ghostly, weird, strange - and the crowd went wild - they seemed to love it. At the same festival, a wild spiked hair group had entertained - with painted faces, prancing about like homosexual peacocks. David Wilkerson

Thanks brother you are right about one thing “the scream” was a shout and the reaction was to various things. Accuracy is important. And yes you are right again I don’t know the singer. One thing I have to tell you though brother. I do know Satan. Nothing is quiet as it seems with him, and discernment is the only thing you have to differentiate him from the truth. He does come as an angel of light when he needs to do so and his counterfeits are so good he can even express them in the midst of truth and true light. The really sad part of all this is that even the heavy metal bands are just children compared with what is truly wicked, which makes christian concerts look like blessed tea parties. Wickedness however is not an emblem of the rational mind it is a spiritual effect. As long as it keeps men and women from knowing God in Spirit and in Truth, Satan is just fine. He doesn’t go looking in christian concerts for his real adherents he looks else where and they are so dark they would wilt even a terrible strong man. Apart from that reality Mr Wilkerson is bearing witness to something which others have seen and understand very well, myself included. We are so busy defending our rational perceptions and in it we loose the courage to bear witness to the truth. I cannot nor would I ever believe that the Mr Wilkerson of many decades of good standing, was lying when he said what he said in this article. Apart from anything else it was a spiritual discernment, reflecting how the Holy Spirit felt and only Mr Wilkerson to that end. That is what I believe and so I don’t need to know the singer in question. As you don’t believe he was lying either then there is only one thing left, given his claim to the Holy Spirit’ mind on this concert at that time.....he must have been spiritually deluded. Does anyone have the confidence to say it. Or will we just play with words as usual.

Last night I attended a Christian music festival. I will never forget what I saw, and I can truly say it was a heartbreaking experience. Since leaving the concert I have been weeping for hours, groaning in the Spirit feeling the wrath of a holy God burning against what I saw. David Wilkerson

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SkepticGuy

As you don’t believe he was lying either then there is only one thing left, given his claim to the Holy Spirit’ mind on this concert at that time.....he must have been spiritually deluded. Does anyone have the confidence to say it. Or will we just play with words as usual.

which of us can answer that one way or the other, brother? thats a trick question designed to win an argument. mr wilkerson was a man prone to being mistaken just as we all are. he was not an angel. he was a preacher, and mightly use by god. but u and others here have put him on a high plain, and that ought not to be done. he was an imperfect man. i wont even mention the numerous false prophecies that he uttered during the tenure of his ministry.

no1 is playing games. accusations have been made, and sum of us who have been around these artists, know some of them, have been where u admit u have not are simply saying that mr wilkerson's experience was not like anything we have seen or witnessed. his description of a concert by mylon lefevre is dramatically foreign 2 anything i have ever seen in any of the concerts i went 2 by mylon from 1983 to 1991.

my question is: what makes mr wilkerson's word on the subject more valid than any1 elses, other than its the one u want 2 believe?

i say all this in luv and w/ a smile on my face! i am not angry, just perplexed.

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sermonindex

SkepticGuy

It may seem like a trick question brother and your wanting to strike a balance between what you know of the scene which Mr Wilkerson bore witness to adversely, is understandable as well. The trick is of another’ making altogether and is not the fault of a man. It has been said that the words to this song are scriptural and this was said in the same vein of support or else as a balance to Mr Wilkerson’ comments. Surly however, everyone here is capable of reading them. Solomon has posted them and they do speak for themselves. They are narcissistic, introspective and reflect how a man who knows the truth about Christ death for sin, speaks when he is so fleshy that he cannot bring himself to acknowledge his own sinfulness to the point of making a presentation of Christ which is truly edifying and uplifting of Christ Himself, turning the hearer away from men and unto Christ. This is the only true ministry. All the rest is vanity. Which is why its dangerous to young people who are in any event inclined to fleshy lusts of youthfulness and need a better and more substantial example than these “song” words expressed. Not to mention the visual effects and the "peacocks".


In the 80’s I had the somewhat dubious honour of witnessing the rise of this kind of christian music. I was no square I can tell you. Nor did I prophesy in the church nor do anything other than bear witness to the madness and fleshy reality of most of what was becoming “youth” ministry at that time. That isn’t said to win an argument. The church today bears witness of itself. Self interest and entertainment in one form or another are epidemic. It has all led to divorce, increased apostasy and a rationalisation or else the practise of natural sorcery in doctrines of the kingdom now theology. These heresies didn’t just fall out of the air one day, they were in the making from a long time ago. The seed bed and the growth of them have been long watered and nurtured by men and women who have names and ambitions and fruits of their labours.


Well I respect your sincerity brother. I cant explain how it is that some brethren do see the fundamental weakness of mixing the true gospel of Christ with this pulp fiction. But I have no doubt that Mr Wilkerson was coming from that reality of understanding. Hence why he could be moved in such a way and have the courage to express it thereafter. As for being a man, well yes he was of course, but he was also a faithful servant and his life bears witness to it. Did he prophecy falsely? It is a very easy thing to do. It just means getting it wrong. Which is not the same as getting it wrong because you want others to believe that you are right.

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SkepticGuy

we probably can not agree on this topic. i do not argue that the church is all about entertainment and much to the spiritual detriment of not just non-believers, but believers as well. music is an easy scapegoat, but it goes much much deeper. as i said, we are good at making idols out of anything. i know many who have made an idol of the kjv even. an idol out of preachers. an idol out of communion. all good things! but idols none-the-less to sum people. i do not see people calling for the banning of the kjv, or communion, or preachers in the church. i do have a hard time reconciling my knowledge and experience in christian music with what mr wilkerson describes because what he writes simply is about as far from the truth as 1 can get. i believe based upon the facts of what i know that mr wilkerson may have had a very active imagination that played itself out in this article he wrote, as well as in his many false prophecies. i’ll let god sort all that out, that’s not my job, but i believe this to be the case.

i did send the link to this conversation to mylon and 3 former members of broken heart. it would be interesting to get their perspective on all this. mylon has always been a gentleman so i know he would have nothing negative to say about mr wilkerson.

i need to say this: I have been a reading this forum long b4 i joined. i have seen many here pile on when benny hinn gives a whacky prophecy, and god forbid pat robertson say sumthing prophetical. no mercy. but mr wilkerson gets (got) a pass every time by many here. i see that as disingenuous. false prophecy = false prophet according 2 god's word.

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sermonindex

no no no......dont do this brothers and sisters.

Shalom, peace, love, please...come on.

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SkepticGuy

there is peace and there is love. we just dont agree, thats all. its ok to disagree. i dont think anything has been said in anger, or taken in anger. 2 different perspectives and there is actually much common grnd.

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SkepticGuy

amrkelly, i am tryin 2 understand ur thinking. so let me ask a question with all sincerity. in 1 of ur posts u blamed christian music for much of the wretched state of the church. i wont argue that with u as i already stated that music has become an idol to many. (i dont think the music is 2 blame, i think r idol making hearts are 2 blame)

so after u have said all that, what do u do with the thousands and thousands of testimonies over the past 40 yrs of modern christian music of how god spoke to people's hearts, whether it be through a song on the radio, or a concert, or whatever? i have heard many testimonies of how god used a song to divert sum1 from suicide (dont say suicide by rick cua), or helped in healing a heart of a parent who lost a child (steven curtis chapman), or touched many hearts who have suffered divorce or loss (cry out to jesus by third day)? the list goes on and on.

what do u do with that? please dont say "god can work through anything". thats a cop out. i sincerely ask u what do u do with those testimonies? do u give wilkerson's testimony full credence, but ignore the testimonies of so many others?

help me understand.

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sermonindex

no no no......dont do this brothers and sisters.

Shalom, peace, love, please...come on. Niel

Thanks Niel. No loss of peace with me either brother just plain speaking. No anger either and no insincerity.

SkepticGuy It is strange how the Lord works sometimes and just a few moments ago I was in my kitchen sharing with my sons about the foolishness of drinking too much and I actually had the thought which runs along the lines of your question. Strangely I also had the thought which runs along the lines of the answer you have asked shouldn't be given. Of course I know exactly what I meant by what I said so it would be easy enough to answer your question. However, I want to meditate on what has been said and share in an hour if thats ok.

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SkepticGuy

yea, brother. sounds good. i will check in later. thanx!

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sermonindex

How is it possible for someone to want to take their own life and then because of a piece of music change their minds? Or how is it possible to lose a child and then be comforted by a piece of music? Also how is it possible for a piece of music to have such an influence so as to cause someone to consider that which before hearing it was beyond them?

If music were nothing more than a sound it would have limited power. But all music is conducted by men. They shape its form, press it into meaning and then present it with a will of determination. All of this is visible and comprehended in the fullness of the sound. To the mind, music is thought itself and it is admired because it not only speaks in the mind, but in the inner heart of emotions it expresses itself and gives emotional satisfaction of the soul where others cannot go to rob and steal. Music can destroy and it can build up. It can provoke irrational offence and it can provoke irrational exhilaration. To the mind music is a comforter and an inspiration, it produces hidden and invisible attributes which others cannot see, and so it speaks to the very heart and soul of the hearer without fear of contradiction. The mind will speak of music in hushed tones. It covets its presence. It flatters and applauds its conductor and holds its adept in awe. It provokes violence, and it demands attention. Of itself it is but a sound and yet when it is led and conducted it has direction. A man becomes the object of its passion and his very form becomes its visibility.

Add to the sound of music the words of men and then music becomes one of the most powerful mediums of influence on the whole earth. Add to this a man, and add to the man a will of determination, spoken or otherwise, and add to this will an expression and add to the expression a garment and add to the garment, self praise and to self praise, ego and to ego perfumes,.......and you have a god.

The opposite of music is silence. It is the knowing and the remembering of pain. It is the doubt and the fear. It is the hate and the anger. It is the certainty of rejection and the balm of conviction that in the end for the laden soul it is better to weep and to cry aloud than to look to heaven without the help of music. Without music the cries and the tears go unanswered, heaven remains silent and the man casts himself down upon the ground and expires by his own hand. But if music comes to his ear and through his ear to his heart and by his heart to his understanding mind he all at once comprehends that he is not alone and lays hold of music his friend and his comforter his deliverer and his peace. Then music itself is become his god and his deliverer. He may look to heaven from whence music has its origins at the very throne of God Himself, but he may also look to the music and to its power and its influence and without God or men he may be comforted by it.

Those who use music to speak to others do so at their own peril. If they do not comprehend its power it is because they have only comprehended their own hearts in it and their own benefit. If they do comprehend its power then they may use it to command attention to themselves and in that they take the place of God. This was the sin of Lucifer before his fall into rebellion. He usurped God Himself in his own heart by reason of his trade and drew attention away from God to himself. Then blinded by the wonder of such adoration he drew aside a multitude until he said in his heart I will be as God. Then he was cast down and destroyed and those that were with him also. Today he is the prince of the power of the air, the very air through which music passes to the ear and he is a master musician above all other created beings. He comprehends how to direct the man by music and by music he knows how to comprehend the man who falls under its influence. Music is of the soul and it is the soul which Satan wants to influence and imprison by the same self serving vanity which music affects when it is not directed to the one from Whom it came and for the purpose for which it was given. Like the very air we breath it is invisible and like the very air we breath it may also be full of poison. It can inspire obedience but it cannot make obedient the man. It can inspire rebellion but it cannot make a man a rebel. It is the invisible chords which bind the heart and imprison the man or else sets him free into chaos and destruction if by music he is informed and without God. Without God it is a terror and by God it is a instrument of worship and an expression of eternal life. Music is its own purpose and the purpose is made real by listening to it. Yet it can by all intention be found to have directed a man only to himself and to his own needs and to his own comfort apart from God Who gave it. No such error is made in heaven all music is directed towards God and the Lamb. It is only men who believe that music is their own possession a thing to be profited in.

T
Tomo07

Weather we call it Conteporary Cristian Music, ( CCM ) or Cristian Rock, or any other title.
There are two ways we can look at affects, meanings outcomes ect.. regarding this music.

1/ towards the saved - worship.

2/ towards the lost - witnessing/evangelical.

Lets start with a verse of scirpture.


Mark 8:36

King James Version (KJV)


36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

1 the saved. Genuine Music/worship should be and only be directed towards Christ. As a form of thanksgiving, adoration ect for salvation & his wonderful offer of grace through faith, for the Born agian believer. It should be about him, for him, start with, & finish with him. It should be centred around him and bring him glory, as well point people towards him.

2 the Lost. same as above. As good as it is for comfort in times of loss or stress. or encouragment, help or guidence. Even if it is full of scriptures ect. Ultimately for someone that is lost & dead in trespasses & sin, it should convict & lead to repentance. There can be no salvation without repentance.
This is why I quoted the above scripture, We can have alldo with these things, happieness, comfort, peace ect. But if this ( CCM ) or So called 'Christian rock' does not lead to repentance, ( don't forget we are talking in regards to music as a witnessing tool towards unbelievers. ) Ultimatley what is achieved? or 'what does it profit a man'?
real worship/praise music should appeal and reach the heart & Soul, unfortunatly most appeals only to the flesh, or emotions.

In this, and all things we should ask the question,

Is it Christ centered.

S
Solomon101

WILD. I pulled the CD that David Wilkerson was criticizing the song "Crack The Sky" is from. I cranked it up and listened to it. Wow..it had been some 25 years I suppose.

The song following "Crack The Sky" is called "Love God Hate Sin"

Does anyone dare criticize this message? Lyrics they were singing to young people were these

LOVE GOD HATE SIN - by Mylon Lefevre

It's not conservative I'm asking you to be, but I don't think that you should try to be like me,
You must make up your mind; what are you gonna go?
You would have to be a fool to not see what is true.

You gotta love God, hate sin,
Refuse to lose, and live to win,
Love God, hate sin,
You better love God, hate sin,
Refuse to lose, and live to win,
Love God, hate sin.

It's not a liberal I'm asking you to be, but I don't think a suit and tie are gonna set the world free,
You must chose your own mind, not the one that's on TV,
It comes down to holiness, and true integrity¦

You gotta love God, hate sin,
Refuse to lose, and live to win,
Love God, hate sin,
You got to love God, hate sin,
Refuse to lose, and live to win,
Love God, hate sin.

It's either black or white, so don't look for grey,
Lights flashing "Keep Out, where you want to go play!
Religion makes it hard, with it's prisons and it's rules,
But in the end you're either with the wise men or the fools.

You better love God, hate sin,
Refuse to lose, and live to win,
Love God, hate sin,
You better love God, hate sin,
Refuse to lose, and live to win,
Love God, hate sin.

end lyrics

Seems to me that it is very much the same message Sermon Index embraces.

M
MrBillPro

We have had this Rock discussion many times in my 8 years here, it usually just ends up going south and leaves a trail of strife behind. Saints, remember we are not here to change people, I found out many years ago only God can change people, why don't we let God be the judge here, and just call it a draw.

T
Tomo07

MrBillPro said, quote.

'We have had this Rock discussion many times in my 8 years here, it usually just ends up going south and leaves a trail of strife behind. Saints, remember we are not here to change people, I found out many years ago only God can change people, why don't we let God be the judge here, and just call it a draw'.

I must say I agree, As the starter of this topic can I just say this.

Firstly I never intended for this to become an arguement, and I am not trying to get poeple to agree or disagree. However I prehaps should have seen this coming as it is a hot topic. A can of worms I guess you could say.

I originally just wanted some information on both secular & Christian rock. as I am doing some research on the topic and believe it is of importance that we know exactly what is going on, and the dangers involved.

I was caught up to some exstent in the rock scene before I came to Christ, therefore I know the damage it can cause.

I do believe we can all agree on one thing thou, Secular Rock music, heavy metal, death & black metal are very damaging and unholy, & have very real effects on poeple who listen to them.

So again if you can pass on any info that might help, that would be great. I am happy to share my finding and I am even considering publishing my findings.

Nobody wins or loses, nor is it a draw, it's not about that, nor was it intended to be.

Thanks & God bless Tomo07.

S
SkepticGuy

who is arguing?? amrkelly and i have had a great conversation. can i respond to what he wrote me, or will every1 accuse me arguing?? wow folks... this is a GREAT discussion between a couple of brothers. stop being so easily offended.

T
TMK

No offense taken here.

This **is** a good discussion.

I guess I kind of always looked at it like this:

If kids (or adults for that matter) are going to listen to rock music (and let's not fool ourselves-- a lot are- at least in general)then it would seem better that they listen to "rock music" that at least has Christian lyrics.

Fore example- I would rather have the song "The Time Has Come" by Hillsong United (a pretty fast rock-style song) running through my head than "black Dog" by Led Zeppelin.

I do think that even "rock music" can help bring us into worship. And obviously albums by groups like Hillsong United are not all fast rock songs. They also have slower worship songs like Sovereign Hands (lyrics below) that are amazing. I think they are pointing to the Lord- not themselves.

Sovereign hands
Nailed to the humble cross
Scars you bear
Speak of your redeeming love

[Bridge]
No wonder I call you saviour
No wonder I'm singing

[Chorus]
God of all the heavens
Now until forever
High above the universe
God of our redemption
God of my surrender
Glory is yours

Sovereign God
Laying down the holy life
Heaven's Son
Willing to be crucified

[Bridge]

[Chorus]

[Choir]
Ho-o holy
Ho-o holy
Ho-o holy Lord x2

Open Hands
Given to the sovereign cross
All I am
God will be forever yours

S
SkepticGuy

If kids (or adults for that matter) are going to listen to rock music (and let's not fool ourselves-- a lot are- at least in general)then it would seem better that they listen to "rock music" that at least has Christian lyrics.

yea, most adults listen to rock music. it is no longer music 4 "the kids". there are people in retirement homes now that grew up on rock music. mylon, the christian singer discussed earlier in this conversation will turn 70 yrs old next yr, and he and his band were 1 of the top christian rock bands in the 1980's. most of the popular metal and hard rock bands of the 70's and 80's are now retirement age. the last few christian concerts i have been to there were people of all ages. went to "winterjam" last yr (a concert with about 10 christian bands) and there were little kids and old blue hairs there having a great time.

the idea that rock music is 4 the young is outdated thinking. its not 1967 anymore.

J
joliboy11

tradition or Word of God?
I love rock secular/christian music before, and I can testify that it is soulish, sensual not spiritual,
it makes you forget your true condition because of the hype/ease it produces, (till now I am fighting this)

as Leonard Ravenhill said, "Entertainment is the devil's substitute for joy"
...but when I've been born-again I now appreciate hymns...
and I do think they are not effective in reaching the lost

The Deception Of 'Christian' Rock Music by Zac Poonen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On9zTgXTsSE

Worship unto Him by Art Katz:
http://artkatzministries.org/audio-messages/worship-unto-him/

S
SkepticGuy

joliboy11 i agree to a point. we want to blame the music, but its not the music! its what we allow our hearts to make of the music.

"Entertainment is the devil's substitute for joy"

the same can be said for anything:

FOOD is the devil's substitute for joy

A CAR is the devil's substitute for joy

AMERICA is the devil's substitute for joy

A GOOD JOB is the devil's substitute for joy

we want 2 blame music becuz we dont want to blame it on what the real issue is, and thats our heart. i have heard it said that our hearts are idol making factories. instead of blaming our hearts, we blame our idols. we are professionals when it comes 2 deflection.

T
TMK

Once again it is possible that we are talking past each other--

because I am not sure what the OP means by "rock music."

joliboy- i am not sure what you mean by "rock music" when you say that it is soulish/not spiritual. There are some obvious examples, of course, but I don't think every rock song ever written can be lumped into those general categories.

"Rock music" encompasses a huge spectrum- not just in styles but also in different types of music within a certain style.

Fo example, some very hard rock bands also have very soft ballads.

So i guess it might be helpful if those who are opposed to Christian "rock music" to define exactly why they are opposed to it-- is it only certain types (i.e. loud hard rock) or all types of christian rock music that has a similar sound to something one would hear on non-christian radio (albeit with different lyrics).

And I think we have to simply admit that not all secular rock music is "bad." "Eleanor Rigby" by the Beatles is a good example. I don't see anything objectionable in the lyrics or the music. You would have to take one step further and say "yeah but the Beatles themselves were not Christian guys." True, but that doesn't make that song bad. There are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of secular "rock" songs that in and of themselves are not objectionable.

On a side note, there are non-christian poets and artists and authors who have created incredible works. Can't I read or look at their works with a clean conscience?

S
sermonindex

Having no interest whatsoever in this subject beyond bearing witness to my own discernment at that time of 1987 when I witnessed and was similarly grieved by a pastor/elder driven move into using what had always until then been understood both by affect and discernment as of Satan, to promote the gospel of Christ through popular music as a way of winning people from the world and to Christ; I post the full statement of Mr Wilkerson which gives a more fuller comprehension as to just how balanced his presentation was at that time. If anyone reading this has been blessed with such a reality as true worship of God then these words will produce an Amen. If not then there is nothing to be done at all.

By David Wilkerson
August 3, 1987
__________

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.... And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness" (Isaiah 8:20, 22).

Last night I attended a Christian music festival. I will never forget what I saw, and I can truly say it was a heartbreaking experience. Since leaving the concert I have been weeping for hours, groaning in the Spirit feeling the wrath of a holy God burning against what I saw.

I went to the festival because the "star performer" featured last night had been in my office just hours before, crying, telling me how much he loved Jesus, how sincere he was, how he wanted to learn more about holiness. He told me my written messages convicted him. His words sounded right - his attitude seemed humble. At his request I went to hear him and his group because he assured me I would not be offended.

My heart is now so set on the massive human need in New York City, and my great concerns now have to do with rescuing last souls from drugs, alcohol and demon possession. I did not want to get involved anymore in the matter of rock and roll, heavy metal, and punk music in the church. I felt I had said enough on the subject and I told the musician so when he sat in my office. We had prayed together and I hugged him when he left my office.

I went last night with an open heart, full of love and compassion - for him, for all Christian musicians, and especially for the 3,000 or so young people attending the festival. I sat through two devotional-type songs, then I sat attentively listening as the musician testified about what he said Christ had done in his life. No preacher anywhere could have spoken with more conviction and sincerity - the words were right. He spoke of separation, of being obedient to Jesus, of winning souls, of prayer, of holy matrimony (he was married), of living a holy life. I prayed as he spoke, "Dear Lord, maybe I misjudged this musician and his hard rock group. Maybe you are doing something new in using the music the ungodly prefer, to win them - to get their attention, to attract them so they can be ministered to. Lord, I am willing to rejoice in hearing You preached, in any manner, from any group - if You are present in it - if your Holy Spirit is blessing it."

I was honestly questioning if my writings about the music of devils in God's house were just old-fashioned prejudices or simply my distaste for rock music. Was it just so much fuss about nothing? Yet something was not quite right. There was an inner tug at my heart making me ill at ease. I reasoned, "If Satan is camouflaged in this somehow, if there is a leaven of evil - it will be revealed. Satan always reveals himself in one way or another."

Suddenly the singer yelled in the microphone, "Jesus is coming - He is going to crack the skies - get ready!" The song was entitled, "Crack The Skies." Suddenly smoke was billowing out of smoke machines, the pounding beat was turned up to a frenzied pitch, eerie lights began flashing, the musicians stood like phantoms rising from a murky swamp. It was ghostly, weird, strange - and the crowd went wild - they seemed to love it. At the same festival, a wild spiked hair group had entertained - with painted faces, prancing about like homosexual peacocks.

At first, I couldn't believe what I was seeing on stage. I said out loud, "This can't be happening at a Christian festival - they can't do this to my Jesus! These people can't be this blind - the leaders of this youth ministry can't be so undiscerning! Oh God - what has happened to your church that its leaders, its people, can't see the evil of this abomination?"

Suddenly I was on the ground, on my back, weeping and sobbing, and groaning in the Spirit. I sat up and took another look at the stage. I was horrified by what I saw in the Spirit. I saw demonic images rising from that stage! I heard Satan laughing! Laughing at all the blind parents - the blind shepherds - the blind youth - the backslidden church! It was an overt manifestation of Satan - worse than anything I've ever seen on the streets of New York.

I stood to my feet, literally shaking with the fear of God - consumed with a sense of His holy wrath against such wickedness. I rushed into the crowd crying at the top of my voice - Ichabod! (The glory of the Lord has departed!) Ichabod! I ran through the crowd, pushing aside chairs, weeping, shouting at the top of my voice, "Ichabod - this is satanic! Stop! God is grieved!" I was mostly ignored and I think most thought I was a crazy lunatic. I doubt anybody knew who I was - the musicians could not hear me, and the crowd was too tight to allow me near the stage. I wanted to get to a microphone and cry like an Elijah - "This is vomit on the table of the Lord! Who are your teachers, that you could be so blind, so worldly, so deceived!? What kind of blasphemy is this?"

I will not shut up on this matter! I will not be silent while multitudes of our Christian youth are being deceived by smooth-talking wolves in sheep's clothing! True love demands that the truth be told.

What hurt my spirit the most, and what is so hard for me to understand, is that this particular group, and many others, attend Pentecostal churches. The musician I refer to told me he gave up drugs, drinking, evil sex and rock and roll performing when he got saved. He cut his long, feminine hair, he quit dressing like an exhibitionist and began to change all his ways. It was a pastor who encouraged him to "quit looking so square and use rock and roll to reach the kids." A teacher, in his sixties, travels on occasion with them, teaching them and encouraging them in their evil methods. According to their teacher, rock and roll is gong to be the "normal music in all Pentecostal and evangelical churches."

It's now the middle of the night and I can't sleep! I can't stop weeping inside. I am shut in with God in my study diligently asking Him to show me what is happening, because hours ago I saw a few thousand young Christians, with uplifted hands, thinking it was Jesus, when it was most assuredly the devil. Has the church - or what man calls the church - so backslidden that there is no more discernment whatsoever? Has God given up on some who are set on bringing devilish practices into the realm of worship?

Now I wonder - "Who dares teach such a Jesus - a Jesus who winks at deception? How blatantly they are mislearning Jesus Christ! What Jesus are they preaching?"

"But Ye Have Not So Learned Christ"
(Ephesians 4:20).

That is what Paul said in his letter to the Ephesians. He was warning them not to walk as some do "in the vanity [pride] of their mind" (Ephesians 4:18). He warned of those who learned Christ in a perverted way, because their understanding was darkened. They were "cut off from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart" (Ephesians 4:18).

Some teacher, some shepherd, had mistaught Jesus Christ to them. The Christ they learned was not the Christ of God, the Lord of holiness, the master of purity. While they speak so sweetly of Jesus, and weep when they mention the name, and tell of a hunger to walk in the ways of Christ - Paul said of them, they "are past feeling and have given themselves over unto lasciviousness [lustfulness], to work all uncleanness with greediness" (Ephesians 4:19).

That is what I saw last night at the music festival - a group of musicians who were pied pipers, leading many young people right into the arms of Satan with their smooth words about Jesus, about celebrating forgiveness - then with an energy of flesh and carnal greediness hard to fathom - they put their stamp of approval on a paganism right out of the devil's treasury. They were saying, by their music and their worldly, ghastly performance - that Jesus and the garbage of this world are compatible. They wore two masks - one of sincere followers of Christ, the other of performing clowns. With their faces lifted up to God, they cursed Him by their blasphemous mockery. Isaiah prophesied of such, "...they shall curse their king and their God, and look upward" (Isaiah 8:21). What they preach and practice are two different gospels.

They are deceived, and consequently they are deceivers themselves. They have mislearned Christ! They have been duped, manipulated and cheated! They should have had a pastor or teacher with enough Holy Ghost discernment, with enough devotion to the true and holy Lord - to warn them, to show them that God does not put up with holding on to the old man and the old carnal ways. Why didn't their shepherds discern that these boys were walking in ignorance and spiritual blindness, not understanding the true demands of Christ? Why wasn't their greed dealt with - not so much for money and fame, but a greed that would not let go of the very thinking that once led them into drugs and emptiness. It's all coming out now - that these groups are falling on all sides, going back to the secular crowd, back to cocaine, back to groupies - playing the part of hypocrites and gospel phonies. Their shepherds are so easily conned, because they are blind in every way. Paul said it right, "For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret" (Ephesians 5:12). The very music they perform drives them back to darkness.

Now - it's probably too late! They have rejected the reproof of prophets and watchmen who really preach the truth! They are like those Paul warns about, who have become so lost in spiritual ignorance and blindness, they are past feeling conviction. They are confirmed in their worldly ways! They are so blind they believe they are honoring Christ and blessing multitudes of youth the church "can't reach."

Sin-Soft Preachers Are Driving This Generation Into Darkness

"...they shall be driven to darkness..." (Isaiah 8:22).

I blame their smooth talking, sin soft shepherds. Those same shepherds must one day stand before Christ's judgment seat and answer - not only for the musicians under their care - but for all the Christian young people they in turn have hurt and destroyed. Without flinching, I declare that cowardly ministers, those who want to be loved and honored rather than rejected for preaching truth, are driving this generation into deep spiritual darkness.

We would not be facing a generation of backslidden, pleasure-loving, worldly minded youth in our churches - youth who do not even know the commandments of a holy Christ - if we had more holy, bold preachers and evangelists who could teach and preach the truth of Christ with purity and authority.

I am not accusing all preachers and teachers - thank God for the few who still do not cower to the crowd or compromise for the sake of numbers and success. Maybe the youth won't listen to those of us who cry out against their lusting after the world - but when the judgments accelerate - they will turn to the preachers of holiness for a sure word from God.

There is filth in Zion, and strangers have been exalted in the house of God - by blind, compromised, undiscerning Christian leaders. They are calling evil good, and the counsel of a righteous God is lightly esteemed. Hearts are hardening, ears are closing, eyes are being shut - because pride and flesh and ungodly entertainment is grieving the Holy Spirit right out of His temple.

Isaiah warned, "...their root shall be as rottenness,...because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people..." (Isaiah 5:24, 25).

Hell must be ecstatic at the spectacle of ministers not just abdicating to the immoral music standards of the young - but actually promoting what only demons should be promoting. Who brings these worldly bent groups into the church for concerts? Who encourages the youth to embrace the music of devils? Who ridicules evangelists and prophets and watchmen who cry out against it? Who puts it on radio, T.V. and who promotes the concerts and festivals that are now degenerating into satanic showcases? It is the pastors, youth ministers, Christian radio and T.V. station owners and managers. They will all live to see the wicked harvest of their soft gospel and compromise - as their very own children fall away to the spirit of this age.

Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary defines whoredom as "the desertion of the worship of God for the worship of idolatry." A whoremonger is one who procures or promotes it. Any spiritual leader who procures or promotes this idolatrous desertion of true worship is truly a whoremonger. And Paul states emphatically, "No whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God" (Ephesians 5:5).

Young people - don't listen to the whoremongers listen instead to the apostle Paul - who warned, "Let no man [even preachers] deceive you with vain [empty] words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be ye not therefore partakers with them" (Ephesians 5:6, 7).

Reprove Them!

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness,
but rather reprove them" (Ephesians 5:11).
All spiritual work that is tainted with the least bit of darkness, God calls unfruitful works! This refutes the big lie of the devil being promoted by the pushers of "new wave" music, which argues, "But it can't be of the devil. Look at all the kids getting saved! Listen to their wonderful testimonies. They really reach the youth - many are getting saved. They speak in a way the kids understand - they glorify Christ in their speech."

God never has judged a work by results. No one is more successful in holding converts than the Muslims. No church is richer than the Vatican. The Jehovah Witnesses claim to be winning multitudes to Christ.

God judges everything by light! That means, by how godly, how Christ-like it is - by how clear, how pure, how transparent it is. He repudiates and spits out of His mouth all that has even a part dark. John saw the Holy City descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. That is a holy people, a bride adorned and prepared for the Bridegroom. Its main characteristic is this: "Her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal!" (Revelation 21:11).

Whatever is of God is clear as crystal! It is holiness so pure, it is translucent as a pure jasper stone. Those who are numbered in this holy Zion, this New Jerusalem coming down from God - have all stepped out into the light. There is no darkness in them at all - they have been translated into His light! They walk in the light - they hate darkness - they reprove it wherever it appears. The enemy has come into religious circles to destroy what is pure and clear by introducing a pagan element that creates a shadow or film. If Satan can inject the slightest degree of error, or evil leaven, he knows the Holy Spirit will draw back because of a grieving. That is why no mixture - no shadow of dark paganism must be permitted in Christ's church.

Also, the Bible speaks of every seed yielding after its own kind (Genesis 1:12). An evil seed produces evil fruit, often not recognized until maturity. The rock and roll "prophets" of this generation are yielding a seed after their own kind - a seed that will one day bring forth a fruit that will wither and die. Jude makes that very clear, "...these feed themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots" (Jude 12).

What of the good sounding testimonies, the sincere and convincing sermonettes? Paul has the answer. "Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them... For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Jesus Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting" (Romans 16:17, 18 NAS).

Oh how God's people need discernment. Great deceptions abound every where, not only regarding the rock and punk music of the young, but also in regard to new forms of worship and praise being promoted. Some of it is born of the Holy Spirit, but much is born of the flesh - and only those who walk in the light know the difference.

There is a revival of worship and praise in the land today, and much focus on prayer, intercession and new revelation. There is no question about there being more and more Christians standing for an hour or two - with great congregations singing and praising loudly. There are smiles, laughter, joy, hand clapping, upraised hands, dancing - never in modern times has there been a greater shout in the camp.

Thank God for those in the camp who worship in Spirit and in truth - who lift clean hands and who have pure hearts - who come before His holiness with a broken heart and a contrite spirit. If they are walking in holiness, trembling at God's Word, repentant and free from the bondage of sin - it is a glorious and acceptable offering unto the Lord. God does inhabit the praises of His people - but only if those people are walking in practical righteousness.

But There Is a Shout Which is
Shallow and Meaningless!

There is the shout of the over comer and the shout of the idolater - and we had better know the difference. The Lord commanded Moses to "Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves: they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it" (Exodus 32:7,8).

As Moses and Joshua approached the camp of Israel, Joshua "heard the noise of the people as they shouted..." (vs. 17). But it was not the shout of those who had overcome the enemy. The true shepherd Moses, having come fresh from the very presence of God's holiness - could easily discern that the great shout coming from the Lord's chosen people was not pure. Something was terribly wrong - it did not ring of the holiness of God.

Moses said, "It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise them that sing do I hear" (Exodus 32:18).

That's all it was meaningless, shallow noise - but an abomination in the ears of a holy God. They had no right to sing; their hearts were lusting after an idol. Their hearts were given to pleasure and fun. They stood before a golden calf - and in the name of the Lord offered burnt offerings. The people "sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play..." (Exodus 32:6).

I received many letters from Christians whom I know have come through the school of Christ. They have come through much suffering and spiritual warfare to a place in God where nothing else matters but knowing Him in fullness. They were driven by such deep hunger for God, they began to thirst for Christ as "the hart that panteth after the water." They tell me how out of place they feel in these great assemblies where the shout in the camp goes forth. It all looks good, and on the surface sounds good. But they can't enter in, because they discern something is basically wrong. They can't even explain it - the Spirit of God within them will not let them partake of it. They discern some kind of unspeakable darkness - something subtle, yet ominous about all the flesh that accompanies the singing, shouting, and dancing. It is almost too professional, too put on, too carnal. They leave, thinking to themselves, "Is it me - is there something wrong with me? Am I too judgmental? Why am I not comfortable amidst all this singing and dancing?"

Those who have stepped out into the light can easily discern the shadow of darkness. They will not be fooled by false shouting, false dancing, false worship, or false praying.

True Zion saints rejoice with trembling! (Psalm 2:11). They know that gladness belongs only to "the upright in heart" (Psalm 97:11). They can sing and dance when the Spirit moves them, but with David they can say, "Zion heard, and was glad; and the daughters of Judah rejoiced because of Thy judgments, O Lord" (Psalm 97:8). Zion saints, "Give thanks to the Lord at the remembrance of His holiness" (Psalm 97:12).

No punk or rock or phony shouting and praising for those walking in the light. They praise Him for both His goodness and because they tremble at His great and terrible name.

"The Lord is great in Zion; and he is high above all the people... Let the people tremble... Let them praise Thy great and terrible [awe-inspiring] name; for it is holy" (Psalm 99:1-3).

- -
Used with permission granted by World Challenge, P. O. Box 260, Lindale, TX 75771 USA.

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MrBillPro

SkepticGuy......joliboy11 i agree to a point. we want to blame the music, but its not the music! its what we allow our hearts to make of the music.

I lost a son that was on fire for God for many years to Brian Warner, better known by his stage name Marilyn Manson, simply because a neighbor introduced him to the music. Skeptic..not everyone's will power is the same, you can't stereotype people, especially Christians, some cave in to music, pornography, drugs, money, etc. why open the door and let the evil in? Maybe you can listen to hard rock, metal rock, etc. and enjoy it without being drawn in. Are we here to selfishly only concern ourselves with ourselves? or are we also here, to warn the newer/weaker sheep to use caution in their walk? Remember our walk is just not all about ourselves, everything we do, and everything we say as Christians is a reflection on all Christians, not just you or me.

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SkepticGuy

i actually read a forgettable book back in the 1980's that was attempting 2 make the argument that all modern music is of the devil. in the last chapter the author discussed music that was "appropriate and god honoring" 4 christians 2 listen 2. on the list was music by mozart and beethoven, neither of whom could be considered christians, especially mozart. i found that 2 be a gross inconsistency.

S
SkepticGuy

I lost a son that was on fire for God for many years to Brian Warner, better known by his stage name Marilyn Manson, simply because a neighbor introduced him to the music. Skeptic..not everyone's will power is the same, you can't stereotype people, especially Christians, some cave in to music, pornography, drugs, money, etc. why open the door and let the evil in? Maybe you can listen to hard rock, metal rock, etc. and enjoy it without being drawn in. Are we here to selfishly only concern ourselves with ourselves? or are we also here, to warn the newer/weaker sheep to use caution in their walk? Remember our walk is just not all about ourselves, everything we do, and everything we say as Christians is a reflection on all Christians, not just you or me.

u are mistaken brother if u think i think its ok 4 christians 2 fill their minds and hearts with lyrical trash. that is not what i am saying at all. we are talking about CHRISTIAN rock. bands like MM should be obvious 2 any1 who truly is a believer for what they are.

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MrBillPro

Sorry Skeptic, must have read your post wrong, still on first cup of coffee, I will move on, I did not want to open the door and walk in anyway. :)
God Bless!

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SkepticGuy

its ok, brother. the point a couple of us are trying to make is that there is a big huge difference between marylin manson and third day.

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proudpapa

Something that I find some what of Irony and a little confussing to me is, I bought the 1970's movie 'the cross and the switch blade' based on David Wilkerson and Niky Cruz, I am not sure how much over sight if any that David had in the making of the movie? OR If he had any say what so ever in the details of the movie? but for me there was much that seemed a little disturbing about it including the sound track produced by Ralph Carmichael, It would seem to me that the details of the facts of the events could have been still produced accurately with a little more discretion.
I have never heard of David endorsing the movie, but I have of the book, which my copy of the book has photo's from the movie for the cover.

speaking of Niky Cruz,

Nicky Cruz - Part 1 - Rap Fest 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Rh5Bk96oE

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ginnyrose

I have noticed that those who find this music their entertainment of choice have dark eyes...the light of the body is the eye (Luke 11:34:"The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness."), so says Jesus. Does this tell us something?

Thanks for sharing this article.

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Solomon101

I must admit that it really makes me chuckle when I see or hear people attacking a musical "style" and attributing their personal tastes to "God's style" while condemning other styles as "the devil's". It is nothing more than personal preference. Do you like vanilla or strawberry ice cream. It is the same thing. Personal opinion and preference..nothing else.

I will ask a few questions. I feel certain they will go unanswered. They always do but I ask them in good humor. It amazes me how silly we who follow Christ can be over these type issues.

So... for those who feel that "rock music" (however that gets defined!) is somehow ungodly, regardless of the lyrical content, then please give us understanding to these questions-

1. What specific times are ones that are "the devil's". Is it 3/4, 4/4, or 6/8 time? Perhaps another? What exact times are the ones you are condemning?

2. What specific chords and chord progressions are you saying belong to the enemy. Which ones are used by him in your definition of "rock music". In monastic times many of the monks taught that the augmented chords were of the devil! If you are unfamiliar with those think of the old cartoon "The Jetsons". Remember as it came on the song went, "Meet George Jetson". If you recall as the name "Jetson" was sung the pitch went up. That is an augmented chord at that place in the Jetson's theme song. The church taught for years it was demonic. Unfortunately it appears we may not have learned much since then.

3. What specific notes belong to the devil. Do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti. Which of these notes are you saying the devil owns?

4. Exactly and specifically what instruments are you saying belong to the enemy and his tool "rock music".

5. At exactly which decibel does the devil take ownership? 80. 90, 100, 105, at exactly what volume does the devil take over at?

6. Specifically give an exact definition of how you are defining "rock music" and then even one scripture that actually talks about it. NOT a proof text that says nothing whatsoever about the actual style and definition. If this style is so evil surely God spoke something applicable about it.

Perhaps someone will answer these actual questions. No one ever has for me yet. Normally there is a red herring thrown out. It will quote a scripture that has nothing to do with the topic at all. That is then used to go on a general touchy, feely, condemnation that is based on nothing other than opinion and personal preference elevated to the point of ,"God's will" when God never spoke anything of the kind.

Perhaps I will be wrong this time. Again, I write this laughing and in the greatest humor. The church is so silly much of the time.

Well..those who say all "rock music" is of the enemy let's hear the answers.

I judge music by its lyrical content and the fruit in the lives of those producing it. That means I an free to listen to an incredibly diverse amount of styles. I have found great messages and truth in everything from Gregorian chant to Classic Christian Rock, the hymns, bluegrass, rap, screamo, Celtic flavored (my favorite), the most recent worship releases, and everything in between. All of these are on my playlists and I listen to them all from time to time. They all have seasons in which God ministers to my soul through the message presented in that unique style. However, you are only free to do that if you judge a piece by its message and the fruit of those producing it. Otherwise, a person reverts back to their personal preferences and then tries to defend it as "God's Style" instead of recognizing that they just like one style and another doesn't really connect with them.... which is certainly fine.

It has been stated in this thread that the content of the musics message/lyrics and the character/fruit in the lives of those producing it are insufficient means to use in judging it. Don't judge by it's actual message or the character and fruit in the lives of those producing the music it has been said. Use a different standard it has been said.

Well....step up and answer the 6 questions then please.

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SkepticGuy

Something that I find some what of Irony and a little confussing to me is, I bought the 1970's movie 'the cross and the switch blade' based on David Wilkerson and Niky Cruz, I am not sure how much over sight if any that David had in the making of the movie? OR If he had any say what so ever in the details of the movie? but for me there was much that seemed a little disturbing about it including the sound track produced by Ralph Carmichael, It would seem to me that the details of the facts of the events could have been still produced accurately with a little more discretion.

the soundtrack 2 that movie was horrible by any1's standards. it was the cheesiest lounge muzak i think that was ever recorded. ralph carmicheal should have been banished to a deserted island. not becuz it had a beat, but because it was horrid muzak not fit for the shortest elevator.

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proudpapa

I am learning that I need to be quick and sensitive to walking in the light of my convictions and open to sharing My convictiones, but slow in condeming those whom convictiones differ from my own.

I am pretty well opposed to rap fest, But whom of us has had as much of a radical transformation as Niky Cruz?? an absoulute 360 turn, Niky Cruz testimony is powerful

Nicky Cruz - Part 1 - Rap Fest 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8Rh5Bk96oE

Nicky Cruz - Part 2 - Rap Fest 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeDzy7wR8cw

Nicky Cruz - Part 3 - Rap Fest 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW7Ktr0IZBQ

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SkepticGuy

a lot of the christian rap guys are putting out music with tremendous theological content. my daughter has a couple cd's that strike me as the equivelent to a crash course bible school. dont be so quick to judge christian rap either.

T
TMK

Solomon101--

I agree with you 100%.

There is no way to answer your questions, which of course is your point.

Your post reminded me of a section of an "Institute of Basic Youth Conflicts" book by Bill Gothard that for some unknown reason is sitting on my book shelf. Not sure why I have it-- I really don't even know what this institute is!

At any rate there is actually a section trying to describe what is "godly music" (based on chords, key signatures, rhythem, melody, harmony, and beat. He defines "rock music" as having the following 2 characeristics: 1) excessive repetition of a melodic phrase, harmonic(chordal) pattern, rhythmic pattern, or any combination of these and 2) dominant beat. According to Mr. Gothard, "Whether the music claims to be Christian or secular, if these elements are preseent, it is rock music and is the antithesis of what God desires in the life of a Christian."

Also summarizing, he says that Godly music has "balance" and satan corrupts this with rock music by creating "imbalance."

I think one might have to be a music major to actually understand what he is talking about.

By his definition, the soundtrack from "A Charlie Brown Christmas" would likely be satanic in origin.

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SkepticGuy

"Whether the music claims to be Christian or secular, if these elements are preseent, it is rock music and is the antithesis of what God desires in the life of a Christian."

Also summarizing, he says that Godly music has "balance" and satan corrupts this with rock music by creating "imbalance."

this is speculative to say the least. and of course there is no scripture to back up this man's conclusions.

kind of like whoever it was in this conversation that said those who enjoy rock music have "dark eyes". what? what does that mean?

i have heard sum say that if you find the music appealing then it is fleshly and we should avoid it. duz this mean that the only music a christian should listen to is music he finds unappealing? that duznt even make sense. music is meant for the worship of god, first of all. secondly music is a gift from god for our enjoyment, just as the earth and all its beauty is meant for our enjoyment.

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TMK

skepticguy wrote:

"kind of like whoever it was in this conversation that said those who enjoy rock music have "dark eyes". what? what does that mean?"

Not sure-- my eyes are hazel.

D
DEADn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrENQbKOwoU

To lighten the mood here is a video by the band 'One Bad Pig' with a song about going to church. 'I scream Sunday"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrcanbGGtoU

This one is just humorous and would be directed at the more Fundamental elements of religion. 'Cut your hair' by One Bad Pig'. See what you think.

S
SkepticGuy

i have always liked the song they did with johnny cash: man in black

D
DEADn

yeah 'man in Black' is a good one. One Bad Pig has good antics on stage even the one song in which Carey would fall on the floor and would come around to display what repentance looks like and being forgiven of his sin. Saw them in Kississimee. I put up the money to bring them into a boys club there.

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Solomon101

Hey DEADn-

Cool that you felt it was important enough for the boys club that you ponied it up yourself. That's pretty inspiring.

How was the time they spent at the boys club? Positive influence on the kids and worth the effort in your estimation?

D
DEADn

Solomon

As I recall that experience I remember several fans coming forward and getting on their knees and praying. The entire place was very quiet while this went on respecting what was going on. This was in 1995 I think? A friend of mine has started a promotions group called Antagonize promotions. His goal was to use it to antagonize the area with the Gospel through 'Alternative' music so I gave him some money to bring this group in. They were a piece of work!!

S
sermonindex

yeah 'man in Black' is a good one. One Bad Pig has good antics on stage even the one song in which Carey would fall on the floor and would come around to display what repentance looks like and being forgiven of his sin. Saw them in Kississimee. I put up the money to bring them into a boys club there. deadn

Congratulations skepticguy, deadn and solomon101 you have managed to turn a profound reality into a boys night out. What should have been a sober searching enquiry is become an internet chat board opportunity. No doubt you all three have a deep sense of accomplishment, or perhaps you simply don't really understand the meaning of soulish after all. The links you posted deadn cannot be understood simply because of the delivery and the deliberate distortion of the sound so whatever humour may be in the piece it really is lost. As for the theatrical presentation of what repentance "looks like" well that is clearly lost too. Repentance is not a presentation or a theatrical gesture it is a reflection and an understanding that Christ died for sin.

Here is a small article written by some Russian brethren in 1992 essentially begging the church in the USA to stop sending so-called evangelist to Russia with a mind to influence their children using rock bands and the like as a medium of gospel presentation. If this does not make you ashamed of the culture which spawned this rubbish then perhaps nothing will.

Christian Rock -- Music From Hell!

From the "Head of the Unregistered Union of Churches in Russia."
Appeared in "Life," dated 21 May, 1992

For thirty years we have suffered intense persecution. Now freedom is bringing another great harm to our churches. This damage is coming from Christians in America who are sending rock music and evangelists accompanied by rock bands. Our young people do not attend those meetings because we have all committed not to participate in secular entertainment.

This is a great burden to our hearts. Many come with Bible in hand and rock music. We are embarrassed by this image of Christianity. We do not know what words to use in urging that this be stopped. We abhor all Christian rock music coming to our country.

Rock music has nothing in common with ministry or the service to God. We are very much against Christian Americans bringing to our country this false image of "ministry" to God. We need spiritual bread... not false cakes. It is true that rock music attracts people to the church, but not to Godly living.

We were in prison for fifteen years for Christ's sake. We were not allowed to have Christian music, but ROCK MUSIC was used as a weapon against us day and night to destroy our souls.

We could only resist with much prayer.

Now, we have a time of more openness. We are no longer taken to prison. However, now it is Christians from America who damage our souls. We do not allow this music in our church, but these "evangelist" rent big stadiums and infect teenagers and adults with their rock music. We, the leadership and congregations of the Unregistered churches urge you to join with us, and we advise you to remove rock music from America.

Do not desecrate our teenagers with it. Even the unbelievers recognize it is unholy music. We call this music, "music from hell." We urge all Americans to stop giving money for the organizations of such concerts in Russia. We only want traditional Christian music in our churches.

This is the unanimous decision of all our leaders.

Peter Peters and Vasilij Ryzhuk
Unregistered Union of Churches
Moscow, Russia
April 15, 1992


I have read a number of posts here on SI over the last twelve months or so where brethren have expressed their own broken hearts at the way they have been dealt with by other saints throughout their walks. Yet these same brethren prove more often than not to be the very ones which so freely and unconscionably press their own freedoms and opinions against those truths which have been held dear for two thousand years, namely that the gospel is the only means by which men can be saved from sin and death. Not a presentation of Christ, but Christ Himself in us and through us who believe already and have life. What I heard in these two examples given with such intellectual humour does not in any way whatsoever represent the Christ who saved me out of a life of wickedness and sin in 1984. I reject it in Christ Name. If you cannot see for yourself then at least see it for the sake of the youth of your nation who are of all generations the most pressed by vanity and self delusion. How are they to find Christ if those of us who have come out of the very filth which they are being pressed into cannot take a sober and mature stand for righteous conduct, sober and pure speech and a holy attitude to our God and Christ? Separateness in all things for the sake of the Lord Jesus who loved us even unto death of the Cross. In the end we will not escape His wrath if we don't change our minds.

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Solomon101

Hey amrkelly-

I asked some questions of those taking your position. They remain unanswered but more "my opinion is God's" belief raises its head.

I will ask them again. Do you have answers or just more preference.


So... for those who feel that "rock music" (however that gets defined!) is somehow ungodly, regardless of the lyrical content and the fruit born in the life of those producing it, then please give us understanding to these questions-

1. What specific times are ones that are "the devil's". Is it 3/4, 4/4, or 6/8 time? Perhaps another? What exact times are the ones you are condemning?

2. What specific chords and chord progressions are you saying belong to the enemy. Which ones are used by him in your definition of "rock music". In monastic times many of the monks taught that the augmented chords were of the devil! If you are unfamiliar with those think of the old cartoon "The Jetsons". Remember as it came on the song went, "Meet George Jetson". If you recall as the name "Jetson" was sung the pitch went up. That is an augmented chord at that place in the Jetson's theme song. The church taught for years it was demonic. Unfortunately it appears we may not have learned much since then.

3. What specific notes belong to the devil. Do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti. Which of these notes are you saying the devil owns?

4. Exactly and specifically what instruments are you saying belong to the enemy and his tool "rock music".

5. At exactly which decibel does the devil take ownership? 80. 90, 100, 105, at exactly what volume does the devil take over at?

6. Specifically give an exact definition of how you are defining "rock music" and then even one scripture that actually talks about it. NOT a proof text that says nothing whatsoever about the actual style and definition. If this style is so evil surely God spoke something applicable about it.

Perhaps someone will answer these actual questions. No one ever has for me yet. Normally there is a red herring thrown out. As indeed it WAS! It will quote a scripture that has nothing to do with the topic at all. That is then used to go on a general touchy, feely, condemnation that is based on nothing other than opinion and personal preference elevated to the point of ,"God's will" when God never spoke anything of the kind.

S
sermonindex

1.What specific times are ones that are "the devil's". Is it 3/4, 4/4, or 6/8 time? Perhaps another? What exact times are the ones you are condemning?

They are none of the Devil‘ they belong to God as do all intervals times and measures.



2. What specific chords and chord progressions are you saying belong to the enemy. Which ones are used by him in your definition of "rock music". In monastic times many of the monks taught that the augmented chords were of the devil! If you are unfamiliar with those think of the old cartoon "The Jetsons". Remember as it came on the song went, "Meet George Jetson". If you recall as the name "Jetson" was sung the pitch went up. That is an augmented chord at that place in the Jetson's theme song. The church taught for years it was demonic. Unfortunately it appears we may not have learned much since then.

They none of them belong to the Devil. They all belong to God.



3. What specific notes belong to the devil. Do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti. Which of these notes are you saying the devil owns?

They none of them belong to the Devil. They all belong to God.



4. Exactly and specifically what instruments are you saying belong to the enemy and his tool "rock music".

The Pipe and the tabret. Which was given him in the day he was created (Ezekiel 28:13) A covering cherub of more intellect and skill than you or I are able to comprehend. Nevertheless the pipe and the tabret belongs to God (1 Samuel 10:5).



5. At exactly which decibel does the devil take ownership? 80. 90, 100, 105, at exactly what volume does the devil take over at?

They none of them belong to the Devil. Never the less he is called the prince of the power of the air. The power is given to the Devil, the air belongs to God.



6. Specifically give an exact definition of how you are defining "rock music" and then even one scripture that actually talks about it. NOT a proof text that says nothing whatsoever about the actual style and definition. If this style is so evil surely God spoke something applicable about it.

What a question. "Not a proof text but a scripture which actually talks about it". You are asking for a scripture which talks about “rock music”. What nonsense. What vanity. What a legalistic conceit. We either understand who our enemy is or else we do not. Likewise we either comprehend by faith and discernment of our minds what carnal, soulish and fleshy is or we do not.

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narrowpath

Bless you brother Armkelly. This is one of the topics that causes me some of the greatest pains. I have left churches partly over this issue.

Paul Washer, Zac Poonen, and Keith Daniel warn against it, too.

How does "Christian" Rock Music measure against this?
1.Cor 13
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy;
love does not parade itself,
is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely,
does not seek its own,
is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Php 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.


P
proudpapa

///Likewise we either comprehend by faith and discernment of our minds what carnal, soulish and fleshy is or we do not.///

This I agree with, and on this topic I agree, But it does not appear that all brethren do agree or have the same disernment on all subjects, So the question is how do we relate with those whom do not disern with conviction the same as we do?? Do we consider them as spiritual inferior to our self?? This is one of many topics that can be argued all day but since there is no scripture that can specificaly be pointed to as a proof text, some are going to differ, and will not think outside of a preconcieved rational argument as is also the case with
Bible translation,Vaccines and the like, all I can do is offer my conviction. And offer the perspective of other Spirit filled believers whom hold to similar conviction.
In a world that has bought into the philosophy that the key to truth is observation and rationalism, To argue such things much past just offering our perspective seems to just produce strife

T
Tomo07

Wow, really have opened a can of worms here.

Well, one thing we can all agree on. Worship music has come a long way in recent years. For a long time it was an organ & hymns. This in it's self, set it apart from secular music. It was considered a traditional christian style of music.

In more recent years we have moved away from this and embraced rock/wordly music styles, sorry 'christian rock'.

Doesn't the Lord call us out of the world? are we not in the world but not of it? or, were we not called to be different & set apart?

It seems to me ( and this only my personal beliefs & opinion )that the worlds style of music has come into the church.

Since when do we reach the world by becoming like the world? Lyrics aside for a moment here I am talking about the stlye.
Heavy distortion, repeatative drum beats, electric & guitar solo's, smoke machines? & lights lights and more lights? Yelling & screaming, ( even if it is biblical or scipture ).Since when did we need all this to worship God in an orderly, ( or at least what should be )an orderly fashion? Sounds no different to the secular bands touring out there.
Also the idolization of some of these bands & the big money made here.

Sounds no different the Worldy rock music here, only sometimes they quote scripture, throw in a passage here and mention God there and all is well. God, who is God the term is used in all religions.

I am not saying all styles of christian worship are bad, but it must be granted most are, you only need look at some of the covers to tell you this. POD is one such band that comes to mind and started alot of the Contempory Christian Movement (CCM).
Information about POD is out there online, look and consider this before posting in defence of these bands.
I do not believe for a second that these bands are God Fearing, that preace repentance & turning for Sin.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/CCM/pod.htm

also

http://www.av1611.org/crock/crockex1.html

The devils fingerprints are all over these bands, after all he isn't going to go after those he already has is he? He is going after the church, & christians. And one of the effective ways is through so called "Christian Rock Bands" Like these, and there are many many more.

Isn't worship meant to be God honouring, in an orderly fashion pointing people to Christ and his offer of grace through faith, and don't forget, repentance? There can be no salvation without repentance.
Is that not what it's all about, as far as music being used as a tool to reach the lost?

or is it just, jesus loves you, peace & blessings? as good as this is, it doesn't not address the heart of the issue & whats important, Repent & believe the gospel.

T
TMK

This discussion reminds me of a very well-known quote by US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart in an obscenity case:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. ***But I know it when I see it***, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that. [Emphasis added.]
—Justice Potter Stewart, concurring opinion in Jacobellis v. Ohio 378 U.S. 184 (1964)

Perhaps this is the course we must take. There is freedom in the Lord, however there is not freedom to sin. We all must submit to the HS and when He convicts, we must halt. I have no doubt at all that the HS may convict one person about a certain work of music and may not convict another about the same work of music. Why this may be is a mystery, but God can do what He wants.

Once again I say that it is very difficult to discuss this intelligently because one is never sure what "rock music" is. Someone mentioned that Paul Washer has spoken against "rock music" and I assume this means "Christian rock music." It would be helpful to know exactly what he is talking about so we could know exactly what he finds onjectionable. If I knew, I might agree with him. But I am not going to agree that all Christian "rock music" is evil, not by a long shot.


S
SkepticGuy

i saw that alleged letter from russian pastors when it first began circulating in 1992. turns out. it has been proven to be a fakery.

we should really check our sources.

what will be posted next, brothers? the famous letter supposedly from a missionary about how his kids brought back a christian rock record from a america to the jungles of africa, and when they played it a local witch doctor came running up asking why they were conjuring up devils with the beat of the music?

this myth started circulating back when christian music sounded pretty much like john denver and peter, paul & mary. no1 has ever proven it 2 be true. no1 2 substantiate it. probly cuz it never happened. actually i believe that story started w/ elvis records, and later morphed in2 christian rock. the story changes and evolves 2 suit the agenda of the teller.

S
SkepticGuy

Once again I say that it is very difficult to discuss this intelligently because one is never sure what "rock music" is. Someone mentioned that Paul Washer has spoken against "rock music" and I assume this means "Christian rock music." It would be helpful to know exactly what he is talking about so we could know exactly what he finds onjectionable. If I knew, I might agree with him. But I am not going to agree that all Christian "rock music" is evil, not by a long shot.

funny that sum1 would say this about paul washer when he has been a speaker at a gathering of christian rap artists. if u download and listen to his message to them u will hear him tell them how impressed he is with what they were doing. he delivered a very compelling message 2 them and it is 1 of his most downloaded messages.

several christian rap artists have utilized snippets (called samples) of paul washer sermons in their music. they did so with paul washers permission as stated in the liner notes of the cd's.

M
MrBillPro

Tomo07... Wow, really have opened a can of worms here.
A big can! :)

S
sermonindex

i saw that alleged letter from russian pastors when it first began circulating in 1992. turns out. it has been proven to be a fakery.

we should really check our sources.

what will be posted next, brothers? the famous letter supposedly from a missionary about how his kids brought back a christian rock record from a america to the jungles of africa, and when they played it a local witch doctor came running up asking why they were conjuring up devils with the beat of the music?

This is just plain and straight forward mockery and so I am away to prayer.

S
SkepticGuy

amrkelly, i apologize if that seemed 2 be mockery. it was not intended 2 be, but i can understand if u took it that way.

i have rarely been in a discussion about this topic when the missionary/witch doctor myth did not come up. and stating that the letter from russian pastors was shown 2 be fake is simply a statement. no mockery intended, brother.

if we can not discuss issues from a biblical point of view, using the word of god as our standard and our backing then what are we doing here, brother? we ought not to use myths and fakeries to back up our position.

S
SkepticGuy

i have spent more than enuf time on this topic. i will bow out now becuz not more can be said that has not already been said. r there problems w/ christian music? we can all agree that yes, there r. but not becuz of musical styles but becuz of the heart condition of sum artists, and of sum fans. we make idols out of everything. that is the bottom line. becuz sum people make an idol out of food it duznt mean that we insist no christian should ever eat. same thing 4 music.

if u dont like music then dont listen 2 it. and dont judge people who do. if u do luv music, then enjoy it and be careful not to make an idol of it. and dont judge those who dont like it.

we would all do better if we worried about our own faults and failings and not so much about others.

no more to say on this.

T
TMK

amen, SG.

I will bow out as well.

Good luck with your project, tomo07

TK

S
sermonindex

you wrote:

there is peace and there is love. we just dont agree, thats all. its ok to disagree. i dont think anything has been said in anger, or taken in anger. 2 different perspectives and there is actually much common grnd.

oh okay. thats good then. i've just witnessed too many times, where this issue, among other hot buttons, have engendered some pretty hellish threads.

i havent read any of the ensuing 5 pages of posts, and i certainly pray that my caution was ill founded.

slightly off topic, i just saw footage, from the Brazil night club fire, it was about a minute of about 7 bodies laying on the pavement. Evidently they had persihed due to smoke inhalation, not a mark on their bodies, limbs akimbo, it almost looked like they were sleeping......and it suddenly hit me....."so that none may perish".

none of these young people started out the evening, even thinking by dawn they would be dead...and i know that going to a "nightclub", and getting intoxicated, dancing, etc, is not a particuraly God honoring activity, but something just HIT ME....those that perished, hadnt really a view of life and death, in the light of eternity.

there were people, still alive, parents, siblings, friends, who loved them, and i, alone in my garret, think of their souls, and if we have the Mind of Christ, within us...which, God willing, we do....then the thought of anyone...ANYONE, being seperated, forever, from God, is a terrible thing to contemplate.

so that none may perish.

i am only a man, a blade of grass so to speak, and it would the depth of arrogance for me, to deign, even to consign, who goes to hell, and who does not...i dont do that, not in my 'job description'.

you see a baby as it sleeps....then you see a child, as it sleeps......a teen-ager, as they sleep, as i see my son, when that dear lad sleeps.

and i saw those bodies, on that sidewalk in Brazil, looking almost like they were sleeping.

Do you remember in Scripture, where Jesus is looking over Jerusalem, and weeps, How I long to gather you in my arms?

i know how He felt, when He gazed over that half mad, doomed city....."how I long......"

How i love Jesus.......remember His Call?..."Come to me, all you who are heavily laden and I will......"

How i wish ALL would hear, and heed that winsome lovely Call of Jesus......"come to me.."...so that none may perish.

God love all of you.

S
sermonindex

dear brother,

indeed, my worst fears were realized, as i read thru this thread, after i pleaded, "no no no...dont do this". i'll finish in a minute here, first let me quote you:

Congratulations skepticguy, deadn and solomon101 you have managed to turn a profound reality into a boys night out. What should have been a sober searching enquiry is become an internet chat board opportunity. No doubt you all three have a deep sense of accomplishment, or perhaps you simply don't really understand the meaning of soulish after all.

i've come to the conclusion, that are men, who relish the opportunity to feed their contentious spirits, and here we have a prime example of such; its grievous, its totally unprofitable, and not even worthy of any attention, and those posters you mentioned, would do well, to repent from such exercises.

my assumptions, and again, i pray i'm wrong, is that their pride, flesh, and ego will NOT ALLOW them to abase themselves in all humility, but rather to continue seeking the pig trough of feeding their appetite for contention, diviseness and argument....and you KNOW what Paul advised us to do with such as these men........nothing. have nothing to do with them.

in conclusion, i learned something about my own soul in Messiah, my original plea, 5 pages ago, was sound and right. i begged, "no no no, please dont do this".....i'm nowwhere NEAR perfect, banish that thought, but when the Holy Spirit speaks to me, in anything, i will obey.

May God open a door into hearts and souls, and find pliability and humility, salted with love, amen.

D
DEADn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brtscLYRoaI

Here is a song by the Altar Boys. It is about 4 minutes long. Used to be one of my favorites 'tapes' in the beginning of my Christian walk. Is this music wrong? Is this message wrong?

John

S
sermonindex

but i know how guys fish, with BAIT on the end of a hook, so when i read:

Is this music wrong? Is this message wrong?

that is bait, and i'll just swim away.

S
SkepticGuy

i always did like the alter boys. very under rated.

"the people being contentious always seem 2 be the 1's that we disagree with", a wise preacher once said.

me thinks he was right, hezzy.

i dont have any more to add about music, but there was not any contention except 4 perceived contention when i pointed out that a fake letter from russian pastors ought not to be used as a source of proof against christian rock. that was it. no contention or offense was intended. if was perceived that way then i do apologize (and did!) for coming across that way.

P
proudpapa

///"the people being contentious always seem 2 be the 1's that we disagree with", a wise preacher once said.///

I have to agree with this, I often have an ideological perspective on topics which make rational argument weak, just as was the case with paul in Acts 17, even though he held the truth and personaly new clearly that he did hold the truth, he was mocked at because his argument was unrational to the naturalistic mind,

A Lash reaction that I often feel toward those that do not agree with my ideological perspective is that they are spirtualy inferior of myself, by which pride often enters.
When in context of brethren, we need to be very careful in such judgments.

S
sermonindex

For me personally the idea that I would use anything which is false to seek to establish that which is true is utterly fearful and drives me into immediate concern for the truth. The fact that it also makes me look a fool is really not important even though that stirs the flesh momentarily. In the end what matters cannot be a matter of opinion it must be a matter of what is true according to God Himself; to that end the question remains what affect does christian rock music have on those who listen to it and especially on those who are caught up in an outreach where it is used as a vehicle for popularising the gospel of Christ to young people.

I came into this thread primarily because of what was said about Mr Wilkerson. It was a clear attempt to undermine his clear and well thought out response to the subject matter. I thought at first that there must be some mistake in the things which were said about Mr Wilkerson so I have spent ten hours or so searching the internet for material pertaining to the incident that formed the basis for attacking Mr Wilkerson. In the end I have found a number of different presentations of this article all of which faithfully reproduce the original. Co-linked with the article in just one instance is the letter which is purported to be from two men representing a Russian based church movement in Moscow in 1992. It has now been called fraudulent. Whether it is fraudulent or not I cannot tell from the letter itself, nor is it possible to say from any other source I have found. In fact the letter is still being posted as recently as October 2012, along with a clip of two Russian young saints praising the Lord to emphasise the point of the letter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DpaR1DM9Gw

Of course none of this proves anything at all. In the end it, like so much in this world ends up being precisely what it should never be, a matter of opinion.

One thing that never seems to go away is the number of times posts here on SI take a turn around the block. The same cynical, prejudiced arguments are made against the same people for the very same reasons. Yet everywhere young believers are growing up “the next generation” and giving birth to the next generation who in turn move into an ever diminished understand of christian life, presented by men and women who are themselves increasingly occult in their presentation of Christ producing greater and greater delusion , worldliness and carnality. Likewise a few always vocalise intellectual self centred, self interested presentations of just how fine everything is and in the end its really only a matter of choice.

http://www.av1611.org/crock/crocmars.html

As a former occultist writing a theosophical doctrine from scratch with no comprehension whatsoever that what I was doing was even connected with Satan or the occult I know with pure thankfulness just how diabolical and pervasive occult practise is. This writing followed years of occult fascination and open Satanic interest. Whilst I was writing the theosophical practises I actually believed that I had moved on from the darker reality of previous years and had moved into the light. It was whilst in this gross darkness that I was saved and delivered. God Himself had to deliver me from possession because the root was so deep any other would have harmed me trying. Even then it was like being cut asunder and laid waste. If we trivialise the day we are in we will be no less deceived. As a seven year old child I wept at the cinema as I saw the nails being driven into His hands in a film. I was a chorister and sang with a cathedral choir. Yet through out all of this I was being drawn into a work of wickedness and not one single person comprehended it.

I have watched pastors who have paraded themselves with such a presence of the demonic that I have literally sat back in a state of utter shock and disbelief that not only was I seeing a demonic show and display, but the audience, cheering and applauding, completely lost in their own exhilaration as the madness unfolded before them. The relationship between this exhilaration and the pastors in question, increasing their displays of supernatural abilities, was proportionate. This is what David Wilkerson witnessed at the concert which I now realise has been the subject of a great deal of attention for many years.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=24406&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0

This is just one of the previous threads on this subject here on SI. There are many other references and comments as well and they all have the same mix of scepticism of a man and therefore rejection of his warnings or the same love of the thing been warned about. I have found dozens of links on the internet which attest to the same bizarre mix of scepticism and affection. Yet on and on we press watching yet another generation of young people being pressed into something which they have no power or ability to comprehend. By the time they will have they may be already clothed in a garment woven by men under the tutelage of Satan, a false gospel, and then the child is lost to this world, yet believing foolishly that they have Christ. It is truly fearful. As a matter of reality I am myself angry before God because the opposite is a thing of such beauty and wonder that to see both possibilities breaks the heart and lays waste to the soul.

S
SkepticGuy

ur writing is a little over my head, amrkelly, but let me say that i luv u brother.

i think the reason this all gets people going is becuz often people feel attacked. listeners of certain types of music are called "decieved" or "dark eyed", and that will draw a response everytime. sumtimes it is painfully obvious that people are talking about things with which they have no idea what they are talking about, or have not experienced it. it seems they read jeff godwins website or jack chick and they swallow up everything on there becuz its sensational and alarming. no time is spent varifying if what they say is true and most of it is not, or greatly exaggerated. very little scripture is referred to on those sites, or it's grossly taken out of context. people read all that stuff and then feel compelled 2 warn the church, not realizing that the material they just read is decades old.

then when people stop and say 'hey wait a minute, this is not true' they are called contentious.

that makes me come back to sumthing i said in an earlier post, which was: if u hate christian rock then don’t listen 2 it and stop judging those who do, and if u luv christian rock then enjoy it and stop judging those who don’t. it really makes me wonder how much time in the last 40 yrs has been wasted on such a topic as music. and while the debate raged bands continued to play, people continued to be reached through music, sum people and musicians made an idol out of music and they will have their reward.

and after all that time (four decades!) the saints continue fight over sumthing so stupid as music.

S
sermonindex

Dear Brethren,

It is profitable to mention and discuss this subject in the current form of the thread we think the discussion has run its course. This is a subject for personal conviction and research and I would encourage saints not to fully impose their convictions on everyone else.

I have more grace for people in this area but still have a greater sense of godly music and what I deem that is.

On that note we have supplied a wonderful collection of Godly music from many different brethren and styles of music here over 1000 songs: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=168

We are locking the thread and encourage brothers and sisters to seek this out more in private and not to accuse each other of their personal walk and conviction with the Lord. We are all progressing on a journey to please the Lord.

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