Greetings Friends,I want to throw this out to you guys and I would like to see what each one of you think on this topic.Is the baptism in the holy Spirit for us today?There are 3 opinions that are in the main stream today.1) When one receives the holy Spirit they will speak in tongues as the Spirit gives him utterance.2)The holy Spirit becomes resident in an individual upon receiving Christ into their life. When the individual has enough faith, in time the speaking of an unknown tongue will come out of him as the Spirit gives the utterance.3)The holy Spirit becomes resident in an individuals life upon receiving Christ as thier personal saviour, there is no need to speak in tongues as this is no longer an evidence to the baptism of the holy Spirit but the fruit of the Spirit is.There might be a 4th one or even a 5th, but these are the only ones that I know of.Karl
Is the baptism in the holy Spirit for us today?
yes yes!!I believe that the greatest gift of the Holy Spirit baptism is love, and the least gift is tongues, but all are available as He sees fit to give.HalleLuYah!
Hi Karl,Ask God to fill you with His Spirit daily. You must have that fulness to walk in the Spirit. I can't persuade you enough to seek God daily for his Spirit to fill your live. It is absolutely essential to the Christian life. God Bless,-Robert
Hi touched on this before:These pretty much run the gamut of most of the ieas in the church today I think.Baptism/infilling of spiritThe Distinction Between Being "Filled" and "Baptized" in the Holy GhostQuestion on "tongues"Theres more. If you do a search you can find some amazing articles and sermons from fellows whose thongs I am not worthy to untie, happy hunting.
Just please don't get stuck on tongues. One thing I have been hammered with is that this is just about the most baffling sign to work with. Although it was a common sign in the book of acts, we are (to the very best of my knowledge) not -outright- told biblically that it has to accompany baptism of the Holy Spirit.Some people I know have never spoken in tongues, but move readily with the Spirit in prayer. I respect these people, though I, too, have spoken in tongues.Some people I have met have spoken in tongues once in their life as a Christian, the time of which spans several decades.
I think people get hung up on terminology...there is an experience with the Holy Spirit that is VITAL for Christian living. We can call it a baptism or a fullness/filling (Oswald J. Smith said we need to be filled whereas others talk about a baptism). I don't think it matters what we call it - and i think we get overly hung up on tongues.The fullness/baptism of the Holy Spirit is for one purpose and that is power over sin! We need to be filled daily and sometimes we will have a supernatural experience and other times it will be a more gradual process but the key is SURRENDER - we cannot be filled unless we are surrendering all areas of our life to God.We must always be careful that we don't go after God's gifts for our own sake - our desire should be to glorify God in all that we do. Every day we are drawing closer to God and seeking to walk more intimately with him...as we do so we will be filled. When there is less of Steve there can be more of God. It's not a magical event (can be very incredible at times)...it comes as we allow ourselves to be broken and as we allow God to take his proper place.God bless!Your brother in Christ,Stephen
Theres more. If you do a search you can find some amazing articles and sermons from fellows whose thongs I am not worthy to untie, happy hunting.Ah, but 'thongs' aren't what they used to be. :-D
Very good!
As for tongues... it was not always a sign accompanying the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts. Also, most folks base their doctrine of tongues on Paul's extensive letters to the church in Corinth. BUT he was in no way complimentary toward them concerning their use of tongues... in fact, he was very scolding.I believe tongues is for today. I do NOT believe it is the "initial evidence" of being Spirit filled, as my Assemblies brethren do. I do not believe in a "prayer language", or an angelic language that each believer receives (there is no Biblical basis for this belief).I believe most of what we see in the church that is being passed off as tongues is false. I wish I had a dime for every person I know who has said "I was a tongues speaker... and after several years I realized I was not even saved!" ... someone said that on a different thread just last week. I also believe that there are many well meaning Christians who think they are speaking in tongues but are not. I used to be one of them.Conversly, I have heard of missionaries (and know two personally) who were in a country where they didnt know the language, and found themselves speaking to locals in a language they never learned. It seems to me that if God is going to bestow the gift of tongues on someone, this would be the context in which He would do it... where it was speading the gospel and meeting the poor of this world on their level. Not in a chaotic church service where the emotional hype is thru the roof.But these are just my opinions... everyone is free to disagree with me. Thats ok. It's doesnt bother me.Krispy
If that "which is perfect" has come, then the gifts of the Holy Spirit should have ceased. Since we still see "through a glass darkly", I do believe that the continual filling of the Holy Spirit is for today, and where a person is being led by the Spirit in obedience to God, certain gifts will likely manifest His presence within them as they go their way. John 14:21 I do not believe that the evidence of being baptised in the Holy Spirit is speaking in an unknown tongue. Paul in fact asks some pointed questions right in 1 Cor 12, "do all prophesy", "do all work miracles", "do all speak in tongues". The demanded answer, according to greek scholars, is NO. Consequently, tongues cannot be the "evidence" of being baptised in the Holy Spirit since all do not speak in tongues. The bible does tell us that we would all receive "power" when the Holy Spirit came upon us to be witnesses. Now, this word witness here does not mean passing out tracts and preaching on the street corner. It is in fact, a greek word that means "martyr". I heard someone say recently, that the only good witness is a dead witness. If you have not been crucified with Chirst by faith, then you have no hope to preach about in His resurrection. If we have not lost our life, then we have not kept our life. If we have not forsaken all, then we have not forsaken anything. A martyr is someone who has lost their life, beloved. This is the evidence of the infiling of the Holy Spirit and Acts 1:8 clearly says so. I have personally seen very introverted people become a babbling brook of testimony about the goodness of God and His saving unmerited favor through Jesus Christ and His finished work at Calvary. This of course after recieving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. (baptism = immersion). Our lives are swallowed up in Christ Jesus. I've also seen those who claim they have been baptised into the Holy Spirit who would rather talk about the super bowl than the love of Jesus. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speakth. Jesus said, "not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of My Father. Most people have no idea what the will of the Father is for their life. How will they enter in?I must chime in with others, that most of what is displayed as "gifts of the Spirit" in churches today is nothing more that emotional hoopla for the purpose of entertaining bored so called believers. That was never the purpose of the gifts. Let me explain.I spent most of my working days as an "Instrument Technician" in petro-chemical plants. I carried with me a small canvas bag of small tools needed to do most of the common tasks of my trade. So when I came upon a situation that I needed a small screw driver, I'd find it in the bag, and apply it to the task at hand. If I needed a voltage tester, I would find it in the bag, and apply it to the task at hand. Now mind you, I did not go around bragging that I had this tool or that. I would have been thought of as being very strange to do so. "Hey, I've got a screw driver". "Hey I've got a voltage tester". Well, if I did not know where and what to do with it, what good was it? Moreover, if I had only a screw driver, and I needed a voltage tester, what good is the screw driver to the task at hand? For me, the Holy Spirit is kinda like my tool bag. When I'm out doing what I'm called to do, He is with me. Regardless of what tool I need to complete the task at hand, He will supply it if I am walking in obedience to His leading and guidance. He always supplies the right tool for the job. Of course, if all I'm doing is sitting around in a building talking about the gifts I have and never get out and follow His leading to make a difference in a lost person's life, then I am really strange. Furthermore, I'm probably lying about the gifts just to impress others and try to get them to believe that I am "spiritual". That is being a man pleaser to the max. If we would only obey God and do the work of the ministry, ie, get outside the box (building), we will not have to be concerned about gifts and being spiritual. God will supply all our needs, according to His riches and glory in Christ Jesus. He will decide which gifts we need, which ones we get, and where. Paul said the Holy Spirit supplies severally as He wills. Personally, I'd rather have the Holy Spirit than any gift. Is the Holy Spirit for today? Oh yes, indeed. But there are so few who know Him, who listen to Him, and who obey Him. Over 100,000 people will leave this earth today while we are in church, most of them without Christ. Selah.
I do not believe in a "prayer language", or an angelic language that each believer receives (there is no Biblical basis for this belief).Krispy, How do you interpret1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.Thanks
I do not believe in a "prayer language", or an angelic language that each believer receives (there is no Biblical basis for this belief).the bible doesn't speak against it either
There are many gifts of the spirit, tongues is but one of them. If all who received the spirit spoke in tongues, who would be left to heal, minister and carry on the other responsibilities of the church? Just because one doesn't speak in tongues it doesn't mean that the spirit is not there, and on the flip side tongues does not mean that the person is filled with the Holy Spirit either because the devil can counterfeit these gifts too.
The fullness/baptism of the Holy Spirit is for one purpose and that is power over sin! We need to be filled daily and sometimes we will have a supernatural experience and other times it will be a more gradual process but the key is SURRENDER - we cannot be filled unless we are surrendering all areas of our life to God.OK so the Holy SPirit gives us power over sin and then what? So we receive the spirit and sin no more then what? We must remember the primary reason for the spirit is not to overcome sin but for us to be empowered by God to do HIS WORK. That is what the spirit does. It is God giving us His ability to do His work. The spirit is spirit and the flesh is flesh, sin lives in the flesh and God is dealing with us in the spirit so we can commune with Him in the spirit that we can worship Him in SPIRIT AND TRUTH. Power over sin comes not from purging it out of the flesh but from spending more and more time walking IN THE SPIRIT!!!
The fullness/baptism of the Holy Spirit is for one purpose and that is power over sin! We need to be filled daily and sometimes we will have a supernatural experience and other times it will be a more gradual process but the key is SURRENDER - we cannot be filled unless we are surrendering all areas of our life to God.We need not be filled ever day with the spirit but rather we need to WALK IN THE SPIRIT EVERY DAY.The Spirit does not pack up and leave every day like a disgruntled lover, it is us who choose not walk in it and hence we don't do the work of God and the spirit is grieved. The work of God is what the spirit lives for and lives by so we need to FEED THE SPIRIT DAILY!!!
We must remember the primary reason for the spirit is not to overcome sin but for us to be empowered by God to do HIS WORK.As I understand it the primary purpose is to enable to be witnesses to Jesus Christ; the doing is the consequence not the purpose. It is written of the church at Corinth that 'the testimony of Christ was confirmed in them'; but something clearly went wrong. The purpose of the 'baptism' is to make us one with the character, purpose and power of Jesus Christ; I think...
PhilologosGod bless you bro!!!I had long assumed that the purpose of the spirit was to empower us to do the work of God and I was wrong. The spirit's purpose is to allow us to be as Christ (because we can't be like Christ of ourseles) so that WE CAN do God's work. So doing God's work is an effect of becoming like Christ.
I believe tongues is for today. I do NOT believe it is the "initial evidence" of being Spirit filled, as my Assemblies brethren do. I do not believe in a "prayer language", or an angelic language that each believer receives (there is no Biblical basis for this belief).Bro KrispyI agree that speaking in tongues is not necessarily initial evidence of being filled with the spirit. Each believer does not receive a tongue, some do and some don't accoding to the will of God for that person. The tongues however do allow the spirit of that person to communicate with God without interference from the flesh. As for angelic tongues I know them to exist. There is no biblical basis for this but there is nothing in the bible to refute it either. This is an experience that I have had and can only share. I have nothing in scripture that backs it upThat is what I know God to have willed in my life and unless you were to experience it for yourself it would be abstract. Also the bible is not an exhaustive list of EVERYTHING that God is or has spoken to His people up to this point. This is not to say that the bible is lacking, the bible is a window for us to see the character of God in the spirit and should be interpreted in spirit, anything less will lead us down the wrong road. Consider this, the early apostles had the first 5 books and other writs but probably no references to tongues but some of them received that gift after Christ said they would. Also not every single thing God spoke to the apostles was written down, some were personal communications to them and some they may have been instructed not to write down. In short the bible is not the be it and end all of the Word of God. The revelations that God gives you may not be mentioned in the bible at all but does that make it any less a word of God? of course not. Conversly, I have heard of missionaries (and know two personally) who were in a country where they didnt know the language, and found themselves speaking to locals in a language they never learned. It seems to me that if God is going to bestow the gift of tongues on someone, this would be the context in which He would do it... where it was speading the gospel and meeting the poor of this world on their level. Not in a chaotic church service where the emotional hype is thru the roof.It may seem make sense for God to give the gift of tongues to missionaries but the fact is He doesn't. Those missionaries who are comissioned by God get whatever gifts God sees fit for His purpose.God doesn't always do things that make sense to us and what may be chaos in our sight is order in His. The truth is we know NOTHING of how God works. He does not always follow a pattern which we can descern nor does He expect that we do, He simply asks obedience to His ordinances. shoot me an email faraib@hotmail.com, God just gave me the instruction to get in touch with you earlier on, I'm unsure why.
bro krispythat last post for you was from me and when James logged in to check on things the system logged me off so the post came on his profile. sorry about the mixup
Also the bible is not an exhaustive list of EVERYTHING that God is or has spoken to His people up to this point. This is not to say that the bible is lacking, the bible is a window for us to see the character of God in the spirit and should be interpreted in spirit, anything less will lead us down the wrong road. Consider this, the early apostles had the first 5 books and other writs but probably no references to tongues but some of them received that gift after Christ said they would. Also not every single thing God spoke to the apostles was written down, some were personal communications to them and some they may have been instructed not to write down. In short the bible is not the be it and end all of the Word of God. The revelations that God gives you may not be mentioned in the bible at all but does that make it any less a word of God? of course not.JimmI speak with tongues; I have done for over 45 years. So I don't want you to misunderstand the point I want to make. :-) Of course God can speak to anyone, anyway, anytime, but 'a word from God' is not 'the word of God'. The scriptures are a unique revelation of the mind of God for all time.And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Ti 3:15-17 KJV)No other 'utterance' has this authority, so in this sense the bible is 'the be all and end all of the Word of God'. Its omissions were quided by God just as much as its additions. We seem to be missing the original 1 Corinthians; (1 Cor 5:9) we don't have it because it was not necessary for us to have it. Although it may well have contained 'truth' God did not choose this 'truth' as having worldwide and age-lasting signifance. It was no doubt a 'word from God' but it never became 'scripture'. And it is the scriptures which are to be our final court of appeal in all our teachings.Consider this, the early apostles had the first 5 books and other writs but probably no references to tongues but some of them received that gift after Christ said they would.I am not sure what you are saying here. The 'early apostles' had no books. The earliest writings of the New Testament were probably James and Galatians. But what they did have was a unique equipping of the Spirit which has never been repeated. The early church had the Apostles; we have the writings of the Apostles.
Hey RonI think my brother (IRONMAN) accidentally posted under my name; I did not send that last post, I am however, willing to endorse what he said, and I also endorse what you said…for as little as that’s worth! I hope I do not distort the pace of this thread but lead me just add a though on tongues.1 Corinthians14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.This is the primary use of the gift of tongues. It is a very private gift. It is when you are focused on God that and usually when you are alone that you see unique manifestations with the tongue. All gifts that the Father gives are good, but anything can be abused. After I got the gift of interpretation I realized we have no idea what we are doing or speaking about, people pray for others in tongues with their hands on someone’s head, while the whole time his spirit is speaking of judgment, the glory of God, the wisdom of God etc. It is almost like saying to someone, let me pray for you and then you put your hand on their head and repeat Hebrews 1 or something like that. It is totally out of context, and I imagine offensive to God. It is an important gift, and the Devil has attacked it well by causing divisions and misuse in the church, but still it is not a gift from which everyone can benefit directly. 1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.It is when I have edified myself in private that I can now come and edify the church. Speaking to God always edifies but, the mind is unfruitful at times. You do not know what you have prayed about but you have spoken to God and by faith you lay hold of whatever it is that God put on your heart…and tongue.1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.Speaking in tongues is quite similar to prophesying but we do not know what we are saying so the impact of the words is largely lost. it is of no consequence to you if I speak of all the mysteries of your heart and yet you do not here a word of it.1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.I have only just recently experienced fellowship close enough for this kind of intimacy. On one occasion we prophesied and I would say the first half of the sentence and Farai (IRONMAN) would say the last half. And then we would say some phrases at the same time. Then we began in tongues and it seemed (I had no interpretation at the time) as though I the Lord was speaking instruction through me to him in the spirit by the expressions we both made. The Lord has used this method some other times after that, even with other believers. I do not believe that the modern church is equipped to allow such closeness in fellowship, it was just a blessing from God that, my brother-in-law/best friend is my prayer partner.James
We had a thread on 'tongues' some time ago, some may be interested to read it here
I speak with tongues; I have done for over 45 years. So I don't want you to misunderstand the point I want to make.Of course God can speak to anyone, anyway, anytime, but 'a word from God' is not 'the word of God'. The scriptures are a unique revelation of the mind of God for all time.Would you not agree though that a revelation from God is also a unique revelation of the mind of God? I mean it is a personal encounter with God unlike any other. The apostles say little about their personal encounters with God or what gifts God gave them in their writings. I'm sure their dealings with God were very much varied and difficult to explain as have been mine and many others out there too. As far as being an insight into the character of God the bible does show us God's desire over the ages to have a relationship with us (all the covenants He as made) and how to go about having this relationship (through Christ) but the nature of each individual's relationship is such that it can't be simply written down. If the apostles wrote down their day to day walk with God or what gifts they had received people would probably seek after a similar relationship as opposed to the one which God had intended originally. In that aspect the bible is not exhaustive nor is it meant to be. There are just going to be some revelations that you just can't back with the scripture because they are on a personal level which is not adressed in scripture. I am not sure what you are saying here. The 'early apostles' had no books. The earliest writings of the New Testament were probably James and Galatians. But what they did have was a unique equipping of the Spirit which has never been repeated. The early church had the Apostles; we have the writings of the Apostles.I meant the apostles probably had no literal references to speaking in tongues to back up their speaking in tongues but some of them had that gift right? They probably didn't have an literature to give basis for the gifts of the spirit either and yet they received them. They don't mention many of them by name though because they would be far too numerous and difficult to explain. No other 'utterance' has this authority, so in this sense the bible is 'the be all and end all of the Word of God'. Its omissions were quided by God just as much as its additions. We seem to be missing the original 1 Corinthians; (1 Cor 5:9) we don't have it because it was not necessary for us to have it. Although it may well have contained 'truth' God did not choose this 'truth' as having worldwide and age-lasting signifance. It was no doubt a 'word from God' but it never became 'scripture'. And it is the scriptures which are to be our final court of appeal in all our teachings.And what if the thing of concern is not adressed by scripture? to what do we turn but God Himself right? At the end of the day that is where the final authority is because that is where the scriptures came from. They came from spirit and should be looked upon as such. All to often we try to rationalize or explain things with our minds and we get all messed up in that. I've been speaking in tongues for only 6 yrs, and for maybe 4 or five of them I've not said anything in the tongues at all. I'm not sure how scripture would adress that but Lately though this has changed. For instance there has been a manifestation of several different tongues, a primary one and some others that are used less often and couple that have been used maybe once or twice. One of them is an angelic one for communication with angels. Now how do I know this? It is just innate knowlegde of the spirit which has been revealed to me. I have nothing in scripture that I can use to convince anyone of that and so in some circles I may be considered a heretic. The closest thing would be the scripture 1 John 2:27 about how the annointing one receives is what teaches and that no man can teach you these things. Perhaps that's why the apostles' personal dealings with God are not mentioned much in scripture, someone at some point would take hold of it and decide that "this is the only way to go"Ron, my experience with God has shown me that I have made many wromg assumptions about Him and that we all have. In all truth we know nothing of how God works and I'm cool with that because God is teaching me to be open to whatever He has for me no matter how outlandish it may seem. All too often we put God in a box and miss out on SOOO MUCH in terms of revelation and blessing and gifts etc because we hold onto things which are comfortable to us. The richness of our relationship with God is limited only by how open we are to Him, how big we allow Him to be. Your experience with God and mine are pretty different because our responsibilities in the body of Christ require it to be so. We will not always agree nor have anything to substantiate strongly enough to convince one another of what God is doing in our lives.
IronmanLet me start with the 1 John 2:27 reference: But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.(1Jo 2:27 KJV)You may not have noticed this unless you are using an old KJV bible, but each one of the words underlined above it plural. The significance is that John was not writing to individuals in this sense but to the whole church. It is the same kind of thing seen in Paul when he says 'we have the mind of Christ'; not I but we. There is safety in the body.You may have seen some contributions from Jake aka bubbaguy. You may not realise it but your conclusions will take you in the same direction. You are right that it is God who gives us the truth, but is the final court of appeal your 'sense of what God has said to you' or 'Jake's witness' or the 'Word of God'?Let me tell you a true story which happened to young woman. She began to 'listen' to the voice of God in the ordinary patterns of life. It was always accurate. It told her which job to apply for and even where to buy her clothes. It would tell her where to cross the street and which queue to stand it. She began to depend upon it more and more and it never let her down. One day it said "would you like to see God?" "More than anything," she replied. The voice directed her into the bathroom and to the medicine cabinet and to a large bottle of pills... and she realised where the voice had been coming from.This is why God has put us into families and given us the written scripture; for safety. It is true that God will bring experiences into your life that you cannot 'prove' from the scripture, but there are principles in scripture which will cover every part of your life.tongues are a language whereby a man speaks to God and consequently edifies himself. As this is a public forum I will not say too much here, but God will not give you a language with which to communicate with angels. He will not. If you want to know why I say that please use the internal email on the site.
Is the baptism of the Holy Spirit for us today?You better believe it! ;-)
As for angelic tongues I know them to exist. There is no biblical basis for this but there is nothing in the bible to refute it either. This is an experience that I have had and can only share. I have nothing in scripture that backs it upThat is what I know God to have willed in my life and unless you were to experience it for yourself it would be abstract.Jimm, thank you for your kind response. :-)I think your reasoning is kinda dangerous. The only mention of toungues of angels was when Paul was saying that if he spoke in the tongues of men and angels, but has not love... he is nothing.Thats like me saying "if I drive a VW Bug or a Lambourgini... but do not have love, it means nothing". He was making a point, not declaring a doctrine that believers can speak in the tongues of angels.It matters not what you have experienced. There are a lot of things that go on in some "Christian" circles that are not addressed or refuted by the Bible... but that doesnt make them right. Take snake handlers for example.If a doctrine or practice is not in the Bible, then by it's own definition, it is unBiblical. Just because something isnt refuted doesnt make it right. Thats not even logical. That means I could come up with something totally whacky and not supported in the Bible, but if it's not directly refuted, then it must be true.Sorry... not buying it. The scriptures are complete, and everything we need to know in order to live out our salvation is in there. Period.Experiences mean nothing because we all are too easily deceived.Krispy
KrispyI'm not saying that I should be believd at all, I'm just sharing what I believe fervently God has done in my life. I'm not saying that everything that is unbiblical is right, that's just not true. What I am saying is that what I have seen and felt God do in me and through me is just God's hand at work in a way I never would have thought possible and I'll leave it at that. He has confirmed that to me already. I know Paul was not declaring a doctrine when he mentioned the tongue of angels. even his apostleship and revelations we questioned in some circles too. That means I could come up with something totally whacky and not supported in the Bible, but if it's not directly refuted, then it must be true.the thing is I didn't come up with any of this, in fact I was really skeptical of it all untill God started to confirm the authenticity of it in spirit. I'm not saying to anyone jump on my bandwagon or anything like that, I'm just saying that the way God works is so much more intricate than we can dare to imagine. Doesn't God use experiences in our lives to confirm the word in the bible? I mean we could quote scripture after scripture but if we have nothing in our lives to tie it to it means nothing.
tongues are a language whereby a man speaks to God and consequently edifies himself. As this is a public forum I will not say too much here, but God will not give you a language with which to communicate with angels. He will not. If you want to know why I say that please use the internal email on the site.could you email me at faraib@hotmail.com on that.
In response to the original question/topic of the discussion, yes the holy spirit's baptism is for us today. I do apologize for my part in deviating from the original topic in all sincerety.
KrispyKrittr wrote:If a doctrine or practice is not in the Bible, then by it's own definition, it is unBiblical. I think that the right term would abiblicalKrispy do you wash your congregations feet? More than likely you do, the way Gods wheel turns. :-P
Doesn't God use experiences in our lives to confirm the word in the bible? I mean we could quote scripture after scripture but if we have nothing in our lives to tie it to it means nothing. Absolutely. But your saying your experience confirmed something that isnt in the Bible. There's a big difference.I have plenty in my life that is tangible and ties it all down, but I dare not rely on experiences as a test to whether or not something is true. Nor emotions.Krispy
Washing feet was a cultural thing in Biblical times. They had need for that, we dont. But the heart of foot washing is servant attitudes. I hope that I serve those who are associated with me... both in my family and in the churches I "serve". Other people would be a better judge of how well I do at that than me... ask them.Krispy
In Jude it says that we should pray in the Holy Spirit building ourselves up in our holy faith. How do you view that scripture?
The Christian life is an experience! To know Jesus and him crucified is an experience! To be filled with his indwelling Holy Spirit is an experience! The Word alone avails nothing until it is manifested in our lives. The Word without experience is dead. Experience without the Word is dead. Jesus is the Word, and the Word became flesh!
I agree Eli, Its an objective and subjective faith.
Absolutely. But your saying your experience confirmed something that isnt in the Bible. There's a big difference.After this I will leave this topic alone. it's not sulking coz noone agrees with me. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my point of view is correct, I am just stating what I have experienced and the confirmation that I received from God FOR MY OWN BENEFIT, so I know it is God's hand not my own wishes.I don't know why God has allowed things to be so except that there is a work He wants to do that requires it so I'll roll with that. I have plenty in my life that is tangible and ties it all down, but I dare not rely on experiences as a test to whether or not something is true. Nor emotions.I don't rely on emotion either to confirm these things. I just have seen the spirit bear witness to what I have experienced to confirm it was from God, that's all I'm saying. This is a thing which would only make sense to someone who has prayed in the spirit with me, namely James. Outside of that, my views are heretical.
Washing feet was a cultural thing in Biblical times. They had need for that, we dont. But the heart of foot washing is servant attitudes. I hope that I serve those who are associated with me... both in my family and in the churches I "serve". Other people would be a better judge of how well I do at that than me... ask them.I recall a well known Bible preacher who used to say. In those days it was their feet than brought them to the meeting. If you want to wash what brought me to the meeting, its out there in the carpark.In case you think that comment abrasive that man on more than one occasion was found to have sneaked out of conferences that he was leading at night to secretly wash cars in the carpark!BTW he was a co-countryman of yours Zeke, but long before your time... Denis Clark.
After this I will leave this topic alone. it's not sulking coz noone agrees with me. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my point of view is correctFair enough, brother... we'll agree to disagree on this one.Krispy
I recall a well known Bible preacher who used to say. In those days it was their feet than brought them to the meeting. If you want to wash what brought me to the meeting, its out there in the carpark.In case you think that comment abrasive that man on more than one occasion was found to have sneaked out of conferences that he was leading at night to secretly wash cars in the carpark!What a cool idea! I like that... tho knowing how things usually go for me, I'll get arrested for stealing cars while I'm driving them down to the carwash! LOLKrispy
I'm Re-posting this because it was over lookedQuote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------I do not believe in a "prayer language", or an angelic language that each believer receives (there is no Biblical basis for this belief).--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Krispy,How do you interpret1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.Thanks
PreachParslythis kinda situation kinda rings a bell...Krispywe will agree to disagree, you do have my email add so drop me a line some time.
Is the baptism in the holy Spirit for us today?Yes.1) When one receives the holy Spirit they will speak in tongues as the Spirit gives him utterance.As has been noted "do all speak with tongues?" (No.)2)The holy Spirit becomes resident in an individual upon receiving Christ into their life. When the individual has enough faith, in time the speaking of an unknown tongue will come out of him as the Spirit gives the utterance.No. It has nothing to do with the amount of faith a person has. It is the object of your faith. And no, not all speak with tongues.3)The holy Spirit becomes resident in an individuals life upon receiving Christ as thier personal saviour, there is no need to speak in tongues as this is no longer an evidence to the baptism of the holy Spirit but the fruit of the Spirit is.Yes. The Holy Spirit takes up residence in the believer as they are born again of the Spirit. Tongues never has been an all-inclusive proof positive that you have been baptized in the Spirit, or filled.Jesus told the disciples in John 14:17 that the Holy Spirit was with them and would be in them. Then, as John the Baptist pointed out and Jesus reiterates in Acts 1:5 They would be baptized with the Holy Spirit.Jesus continues and says in Acts 1:8, "But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you..."with...in...and upon. And tongues was never the all inclusive proof of someone filled or baptized with the Holy Spirit.It's not what comes out of our mouths that is the proof. It's the character of our lives...the "Attitudes", or the "Be-Attitudes".It's not what you do, it's who you are. That is the proof the world is looking for. Christ-likeness.
this kinda situation kinda rings a bell...I wasnt tring to start an arguement. I just would like to know his opinion. I've never heard it interpreted another way. Sorry to come off like i was trying to get an arguement going.
Lest anyone think I was blowin' off PreachParsly, he contacted me privately, and I addressed his question. I hadnt checked this thread in awhile, so I was unaware he had inquired of me.I dont mind him asking me my opinion on this topic, and I in now way interpret his question as argumenative at all. It's a legit question.Krispy
I wasnt tring to start an arguement. I just would like to know his opinion. I've never heard it interpreted another way. Sorry to come off like i was trying to get an arguement going.oh I know, I was just saying that I had been through something similar and reposted my question and got a response. I didn't mean anything by it but I should have worded that better. Sorry all
Then we will all be encouraged by your comments. :)
It's the character of our lives...the "Attitudes", or the "Be-Attitudes".I like it! :-D
PreachParsly, if you still have the "private message" that I sent you addressing your question, could you please paste it into this thread?I dont have time today to re-write the whole thing.The reason i responded privately is because he asked me privately and I did not see that he had asked me on the thread until after the fact.I dont want y'all thinking I'm afraid to address that. Me? Not speaking my mind? yea... right! :-P Krispy
KrispyKrittr wrote:I havent checked the thread recently, so I missed your question. Sorry about that.I dont have time to address this appropriately in my own words, so I'll direct you to a good link... and I have not reviewed this whole site, so this is not in anyway a blanket approval of all these folks believe... simply because I dont know what all they believe.But on this issue, I am in 95% agree with them. I just happen to believe that the gift of tongues does operate in a limited, Biblical capacity.http://www.calvaryindependent.com/eng_article16.htmHope this helps.Krispy
LOL... I guess I could have pasted that link myself! :-P I was confused in my mind about who and which and what I sent to who... I had written a lengthy clarification of something I said to someone yesterday, and I thought it was about this. Sorry y'all.Check out the link anyway... it pretty much describes my position.Krispy
Here are a few notes I joted down in Christian Living class about the Holy Spirit:Jesus – Up (heaven)Holy Spirit – Down (to earth)Disciples – Out (to the ends of the earth)Acts 8 :14-17The Holy Spirit had yet “fallen upon them” Acts 9: 17-19“filled with the Holy Spirit”Acts 10:44-48“the Holy Spirit fell upon all of those…”Acts 19:1-7“the Holy Spirit came upon them…”3 Prepositions in the Greek for the Holy Spirit:IN – He is in.PARA – He is alongsideEPI – He is down upon. In you – revelation of scriptures of Christ.With you – as an advocate before us. Upon you – power of God for service**I believe the UPON YOU experience is that of the baptism of the Holy Spirit for Christian service.WE are in the age of Pentecost but is Pentecost in us?
In our little fellowship we have studied the meaning of the bastism of the Holy Spirit. I just want to share briefly the two main points, which are really one.1) The baptism of the Holy Spirit (HS) is universal.We should not separate salvation (being born anew) and the baptism of the HS. The believer is baptised in the HS at the moment of salvation, all believers are baptised by the HS: 1 Cor. 12:13. Notice the "all" in this key verse. This is confirmed by Eph. 4:4, where it says that there is "one baptism".1) We are baptised in the body of ChristThis is what is said in 1 Cor. 12:13. There is "one baptism" and "one body", therefore to be baptised in the HS is to be baptised into the body of Christ. 1) All true believers are baptised by the HS, 2) we are all baptised into the one body. This is confirmed by passages like Acts 2:47 and 5:14, where it says that it was the Lord Himself that added to the church.I don't want to be dogmatic on this, all I can say is that the above all made good sense to us.
Didier wrote:The believer is baptised in the HS at the moment of salvation,Alrighty then, I am going to let the bible speak for itself in this post, I will quote it and highlight in bold letters so that we can see what is being projected. (I wish I had my bible program up and running I could just copy and paste, oh well the typing will do me good)Acts Chapter 8:5-"Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. And the people with ONE ACCORD GAVE HEED UNTO THOSE THINGS WHICH PHILIP SPAKE, HEARING and seeing the miracles which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed; and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. AND THERE WAS GREAT JOY in that city."Dropping down to verse 12"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the Kingdome of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were BAPTIZED, both men and women."Dropping down to verse 14"Now when the Apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had RECEIVED THE WORD OF GOD, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that THEY MIGHT RECEIVE the HOLY GHOST; (For as yet He was fallen upon NONE of them: ONLY THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS.) Then laid they their hands upon them, and they received the Holy Ghost.I will also present another scenerio from Acts chapter 19."And it came to pass...........Paul...finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, WE HAVE NOT SO MUCH HEARD WHETHER THERE BE ANY HOLY GHOST. and he said unto them, unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, and saying unto the people, that they should believe on Him which should come after him, that is on Christ Jesus. When they heard this they were baptized in the name of the LORD Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands on them, THE HOLY GHOST CAME ON THEM; AND THEY SPAKE WITH TONGUES AND PROPHESIED."There you have it. Eat this and throw away the Word of Faith/charismatic teachings that are messing up our churches.Karl
Dear brother Karl,You wrote: "There you have it. Eat this and throw away the Word of Faith/charismatic teachings that are messing up our churches."1) Don't be so agressive.2) The passages you quoted don't contradict the ones I quoted.3) I am not "Word of Faith/charismatic" (whatever that means). 4) I can't see - I'm sorry - how what I said can be termed "Word of Faith/charismatic"? I just quoted Scripture.DidierPS: For your information, and for whoever might be interested, I live in continental Europe, and English is not my mother tongue. Therefore, my outlook on "Christendom" and what goes on in it, might be somewhat different from yours. I think, but I might be wrong, that our outlook on the Word of God here is much less influenced by what goes on around us than where you live. That is we don't so much analyse and study God's Word in the light of what goes on here and there. We look to the Lord only to study His Word; outside circumstances affect us little in regard to it. So I am willing to admit that we see little or as Paul says "we see in a mirror dimly"; but there's no need to get excited about this subject.
My European Brother in ChristRemember this is an open forum meaning that when we are posting they are not directed at you personally, it is for all of us, we are speaking to all.If it is directed at you, then we should personally email one another and to resolve our difference if there be any, and I am no saint when it comes to this, I sometimes slip. And I can assure you my Brother I was not being aggressive, forgive me if this is how I came across. I was merely sharing. I am hoping that others reading your post and my post we can all share in the topic at hand and broaden our insight. And I am also sure of this one thing that this topic is not new.God bless you and keep posting, your thoughts and ideas are very important.Karl
I do agree that when we are saved we recieve a measure of HS. I also believe you can be filled with the baptism of the HS without measure.
here's a quote from their website, the doctrine part:. By the “Holy Bible” we mean that collection of sixty six books from Genesis to The Revelation, divinely preserved in the English language and commonly known as the authorized, King James Version of 1611 A.D.so then, I'm to assume, all the precious Word(s) of God being loving translated in thousands of different languages ACROSS the world are not to be accepted as the Inerrant, Infallible Word of God? is that the case?I must say, that after having visited this website, its just grievous, GRIEVOUS to see the futher division within the Body perpetuated in the name of "truth". what a truly pharaisical witness. (it was also interesting to note the white leadership of a church in Sud Afrika, one that calls itself "old fashion" (sic)) that He seals, fills, guides, teaches, sanctifies, and comforts all believers, cultivating in them Christian character and bestowing upon them spiritual gifts by which they serve God in the church, these gifts being entirely unlike those false-hoods perpetrated within the so-called “Charismatic Movement” of today. a deplorable witness, more anti-pentecostalism.
I have no clue what this teaching is.let me tell you what I know.Jesus Christ and Him crucified.I think that all these different doctrines and creeds, and things are all there to give men something to do OTHER than praying for God to break and mold them anew in the likeness of His son, Jesus and to fill them with the Holy Ghost and with fire and power inherent in this infilling in the Holy Spirit.The greatest Gift of the Spirit is LOVE.the least of these nine gifts are speaking in other tongues as the Spirit give utterance.Thats the least of the Gifts, but it is absolutely available to believers today, and if some of you guys don't believe that fine, but it is truly divisive to rip apart those followers of Jesus who do believe in the availibility of the gifts of the Holy Ghost.Truly divisive, and eminently pharaisical.Build the Body up and quit this devilish exercise of ripping the Body apart with these foolish controversies and arguments, such as the KJV argument, or the anti-pentecostal argument.Ask yourself this question :what have I done to build the Body of Christ up?if the only thing you can answer is, "well I defended the true faith on SI, and told those heretics what the truth is", then I can tell you, you are decieved, deluded, and divisive.
Brother Neilgin1The Word of Faith is not a teaching it is a movement that has crept into our midst via the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement. It has many heretical beliefs, one of them being that you can be filled with the holy Ghost without being filled with the Holy Ghost the way it was outlined in the book of Acts.The language goes something like this, "Holy Ghost within Holy Ghost without", which means that once you receive Christ you receive a measure of the holy Ghost and sometime down the road, the Holy Ghost will come out in the form of speaking in tongues or the fruit of the Spirit.Another teaching within this movement is the idea that Christ became demon possessed, went to hell and was tormented by devils and then rose again as the first Born Again man. I have this documented from the founder of this movement, Kenneth E. Hagin in his book entitled, "The Name of Jesus". Another teaching within this movement is the "Prosperity Gospel", we all know what this is. "Name it and Claim it" and "Blab it and Grab it". The idea is that if your not wealthy your cursed.There are many more such teachings, yet within this movement is the belief in the baptizing in the holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues, the gifts of the Spirit are sought after, the fruit of the Spirit is taught, and these are all fine and good. But what of these are other teachings that are damnable and heretical?When I read the things that Hagin spoke about our LORD being demon possessed, that scared me that one would write such words. I became afraid of Hagin, I tore every tape that I had of his, every book except the afore mentioned.I didn't want any association whatsoever with such a ministry.Karl
oh yeh , I've heard of that! that is pretty bad stuff.God will take care of it!!thanks for the post my brother
Another note, Neilgin1Can you honestly say that you know every man's heart on this forum?Are you so bold as to state that you are the only one seeking after God? Just because we post our thoughts and ideas does that mean we don't have a prayer life or some connection with our heavenly Father?Does it mean that we don't care what other people think?Does it mean that we can't debate? Paul debated that is apart of reasoning. We learn by stretching our hands out to one another and taking hold, and by doing that I am embracing your thoughts and ideas of what you believe, because your sharing them me and with the body. Whether we agree or don't agree it, what matters is that we are sharing and that we are receptive to the truth. Can you accept me the way that I am, with all my flaws and failures?Can you accept God's investment in which you and I are? We are His heritage.Do you love me brother? If you do, then bear with me and all that are on this forum. One of the fruit of the Spirit is Longsuffering. (one preacher said, How long is longsuffering? As long as you have to suffer)This website is designed for many things, and because God is at the centre of it that means there are many functions and avenues in which He can use it for. One of those avenues is for people who have a short fuse to come and partake of many different backgrounds and beliefs, and by learning to love one another and holding ones peace, the LORD will fight his battles. Can you not see that this website is for those who are shutin, they don't have church to go to, or they have been shutout. This is their sanctuary. They come here and pray for those that may be contentious here, perhaps praying that Adminstrator won't ban them.Have you considered that there are more than 10,000 souls that visit this site. Allow my words to soften your heart brother. There is more to this site then you and me, much more.We all know who we have believed. We could be all in one mega arena with christians galore and everyone is talking amongst themselves, and there is just a great noise of talking and suddenly, Christ comes out unto the stage and taps the microphone, "testing testing". The noise starts to dim down, He begins to speak, "Praise to the Father" and the whole mass of saints, in one accord says, "Praise the LORD".We know who we have believed. Right now your seeing the noise, but when God speaks to our hearts, we all turn in one accord, in unity, as one heart.Look deeper my brother, and see God in each and every one of us, and by so doing, you'll see the Christ on centre stage waiting for the great moment when He will be able to call together His body in unison and one accord.He does it everyday in different parts of the world. He did it when He sent Carter Conlon to Zambia. He did it at Azusa Street. He did it with all the great revivals. And He is still doing it today.And He is building you and I up for our moment, our season will come, let us not hurry God, lest we become too weak because we did not wait.These words were meant to encourage everyone here.Karl :-)
Can you honestly say that you know every man's heart on this forum?Are you so bold as to state that you are the only one seeking after God? Just because we post our thoughts and ideas does that mean we don't have a prayer life or some connection with our heavenly FatherI never said that at all, nor implied it. what I was speaking of is the argument after argument after argument. Debate is fine, but it is so evident how fractured and divided the Body of Christ after reading some of the endless arguments based on doctrine on this forum, and my point in its entiredy is this:the only thing I know is Jesus Christ and Him crucified.what do you think has torn apart the church for these countless generations....moving away from the centrality of that statement of Pauls.while I was with you, I resolved to know only Jesus Christ and Him crucified.don't ever think for a second that I dont love you my brother.
I know you love me Brother NeilBut I understand what you are saying and seeing.It can be quite disheartening and discouraging seeing and hearing all that we see on this website. I am quite involved here, and do take into consideration each and everyone's beliefs backgrounds.(I try)Oh the diversity, I can see our Father looking at it all, and I truly don't believe that He is disgusted with us. I think He may have more mercy for us, because we are little boys with toys, fighting over them.But if we are older in the things of the LORD then that is a different story. If we are doing such things like that then we have not put away childish things, and we need to go back to the sincere milk of the word for we are not even fit to teach.I haven't even been called into anything yet. I am still a project in motion, I've got so many problems, and quirks to iron out before I could be fit to be an example of the Church that will go forth in power and demonstration in the days ahead.I love you brother, keep up the faith, its people like you that make this site work.Karl
the least of these nine gifts are speaking in other tongues as the Spirit give utterance.Why do you make this judgement?
Dear brothers,I think we are diverting from the subject at hand, and getting involved with side issues; we need to get to the root of this thing. Maybe my first post on this subject was thrown in the middle of something that wasn't what I thought.The fact is that only one person responded directly to the post I made, that is ilihan.The whole problem, I feel, is: What do we mean by "Baptism in the Holy Spirit"? Most often when this question is asked - and this is precisely the subject of the present thread - we immediately think of the Pentecostals / Charismatics. But it shouldn't be like this. As I said in my first post we shouldn't interpret the Scriptures in the light of what goes on around us, it should be the opposite.Our present subjetc is: "Is the baptism in the holy Spirit for us today?" Lets try to stick to it.Does anyone feel responding to what I wrote about it?Didier
Healingwaters wrote:Greetings Friends,I want to throw this out to you guys and I would like to see what each one of you think on this topic.Is the baptism in the holy Spirit for us today?There are 3 opinions that are in the main stream today.1) When one receives the holy Spirit they will speak in tongues as the Spirit gives him utterance.this would be the classical Pentecostal standpoint.2)The holy Spirit becomes resident in an individual upon receiving Christ into their life. When the individual has enough faith, in time the speaking of an unknown tongue will come out of him as the Spirit gives the utterance. I don't know of any group which believes this.3)The holy Spirit becomes resident in an individuals life upon receiving Christ as thier personal saviour, there is no need to speak in tongues as this is no longer an evidence to the baptism of the holy Spirit but the fruit of the Spirit is. This would be a view held by cessationist; those who believe that the miraculous gifts, as distinct from miraculous fruit, have ceased now that the Bible revelation is complete.There might be a 4th one or even a 5th, but these are the only ones that I know of.KarlThere are lots but I think most have been discussed in one way or another frequently on this site.
Most often when this question is asked - and this is precisely the subject of the present thread - we immediately think of the Pentecostals / Charismatics.Not me, brother. Do you know who I think of? The Apostles! For it was in fact the indument of the Spirit that made them the witnesses that they were! It's just been so distorted. Even the greats like Wesley and Finney understood the necessity of the Spirit and futility of doing anything without it. We too must hold to the same, "Hold to the teachings passed down".
I agree with you Eli. But it also speaks to me about all the believers functioning in the local assemblies unto the mutual edification of the body of Christ, 1 Cor. 14:26.
Sorry, Didier, I don't understand you last post... were you saying that I didn't believe the Spirit was for now? I'm just confused, that's all-I believe the Holy Spirit was there at creation-I believe the Spirit filled certain people in the Old Testament-I believe the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost after Jesus went back into heaven-I believe the Holy Spirit fills us to give us power for the furthering of God's Kingdom and the destruction of the kingdom of darkness-I believe in the necessity for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit-I believe the above statement is true for all believers ever since the Day of Pentecost-I believe the Holy Spirit can fill me today!So be it Lord, Amen.
Eli,The question is "Is the baptism in the Holy Spirit for us today?"I am simply going to restate what I said in my first post:1) The baptism of the Holy Spirit (HS) is universal.We should not separate salvation (being born anew) and the baptism of the HS. The believer is baptised in the HS at the moment of salvation, all believers are baptised by the HS: 1 Cor. 12:13. Notice the "all" in this key verse. This is confirmed by Eph. 4:4, where it says that there is "one baptism".1) We are baptised in the body of ChristThis is what is said in 1 Cor. 12:13. There is "one baptism" and "one body", therefore to be baptised in the HS is to be baptised into the body of Christ. 1) All true believers are baptised by the HS, 2) we are all baptised into the one body. This is confirmed by passages like Acts 2:47 and 5:14, where it says that it was the Lord Himself that added to the church.