THE OFFENCE OF THE CROSS

I cannot but avow my fears that Satan has propagated much of this false religion,Satan? What Satan?If we're going to be offense-free, we need to remove the figure of 'ultimate evil'. After all, there is no Hell. Our loving god is not going to send people there, but will, as a loving god, offer forgiveness for all people and their small, petty crimes they may have committed on this earth.Let's keep this above board, Krispy. No more talk of a 'devil' or 'hell' or anything negative like that. Remember our god is all about love and Jesus preached it. Love everybody and everything unconditionally...agree with your fellow man, and promote everything he suggests that doesn't directly hurt someone else.That's the way to be offense-free! :-P

I think loving implies just, and that just implies full, impartial consideration.That being said, I don't know if God is going to be saddened every time he is forced to turn away another person from the throne, but that in respect to the decisions they made and in accordance with His provisions will have no choice but to do so.

Jake writes:Truth comes on many levels. The bible is spiritually accurate. It is Gods word as handed down through the ages by a falible man. It is rich in historical information about our religious heritage. Its just not a literal document.So it's truth based on fallacy. Just look how well my building looks; its only the foundations that are rotten. :-? BTW I find the title of this thread really offends me. We should never set out to offend anyone. The word really means to cause to stumble. Why would we want to cause anyone to stumble?Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: (1Co 10:32 KJV)

I agree Ron, that's something we have to be very careful of. That's certainly one of my own fears is that I become a tinkling cymbal, which I have been at times. The Lord knows I've done this at times in my life and I've had to repent of it.Let's be courageous to speak the truth in love. If that's viewed as offensive so be it but my prayer is that other folks may see Christ in me. If others can't see a difference in my life due to Christ, then what do I have? They may not like it because it convicts them. That's what I hoping that Christians will convict others by the way they treat others and live their life.1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Dear Krispy,I understand your heart brother and I fully agree when you wrote:Lets not weaken the message in order to not offend someone.However, in light of some "regrettable offences" made here on this forum...well...it just doesn't fit in that well. I don't know...but maybe you could change the name?I had to think of a great hymn to encourage us all, our eyes focused on Christ:[font=Helvetica]"Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,With the cross of Jesus going on before.Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;Forward into battle see His banners go!RefrainOnward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,With the cross of Jesus going on before.At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee;On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise;Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.RefrainLike a mighty army moves the church of God;Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod.We are not divided, all one body we,One in hope and doctrine, one in charity.RefrainCrowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane,But the church of Jesus constant will remain.Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail;We have Christ’s own promise, and that cannot fail."[/font]Greetings in Christ to you all, my fellow soldiers! :-),Paul

BTW I find the title of this thread really offends me. For we all often offend. If any one offend not in word, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body too. (James 3:2 Darby)Some may stumble at the word being disobedient. Some may perchance stumble at that stumbling stone; which is Christ. But let none stumble because of my words or my words add an unnecessary offense to an already offensive Gospel. This is particularly true of babes in Christ. God Bless,-Robert

If a dictionary or encyclopedia have errors, and most of them do, does it invalidate the rest of the information?So how do you maintain confidence in the author of the dictionary who keeps getting the definitions wrong?

I understand your heart brother and I fully agree when you wrote:

Lets not weaken the message in order to not offend someone.

BTW I find the title of this thread really offends me.I was going to say something similar but decided not to. Many people who come to SI may or may not understand this type of humor- especially if they are newer in their faith or are over-zealous themselves.I am wondering if this article is not being taken out of context, if it is not being used for another purpose than what it was written for. I don't think the author suggests that we go out and purposely find ways to offend. I don't hear Jesus saying in His day 'let's go out today and offend people."It was just a fact, that people were offended- and may it be said, that the religious of that day were most likely the ones offended because they thought they knew the truth. They had all the answers. They kept all the law to the T.Yes, the true gospel does offend on occasion. But it should not be a matter of thought. If we are in submission to Jesus Christ living in us everyday, He will lead us and direct us where to go and who to speak to and what to say. If He is truly living in us, we will display the fruits of the spirit in our living, in our attitudes and in our speaking.I think the idea that we have to tell everyone else what's wrong with them and then refuse to look at our selves is a mistake. if we spent more time looking in the mirror and letting the Lord examine our own hearts- we would do well. If you want to talk about offending people, especialy the religious, I have found that self examination (letting the Lord examine, really) has been the most offensive thing to my extended family members, etc... "You can't be perfect you know." They don't like to hear that you are willing to be examined because it makes them feel convicted. They don't like to see the humility it takes to be willing to grow and CHANGE constantly.And I might add, that many times unconditional love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfullness and self-control ARE offensive to people as well, especially the religious and those who feel they do not deserve to be treated in this way deep inside.Again, I wish we would think and pray a little before we post. I have been guilty of posting or replying quickly in the flesh but I find that if i seek the Lord's will first, needless words go unsaid, less damage is done and I have found that i have grown a bit by humbling myself and restraining myself.In His love, Chanin

bubbaguy wrote:If a dictionary or encyclopedia have errors, and most of them do, does it invalidate the rest of the information?The notion that scripture has changed over time has been parroted again and again - so often in fact, that many imagine it is true simply because they consider it unlikely that so many could be misinformed. The fact is, however, that this popular notion is entirely fictional. Consider the virtually complete text of the book of Isaiah found with the dead sea scrolls:This near complete text, containing a few -insignificant- variations (spelling errors and the like) was identical to the texts we have today - nearly 2000 years later (see: The Dead Sea Scrolls & Modern Translations of the Old Testament", by Harold Scanlin 1993).This is just one example (among many that could have been cited) which emperically demonstrates that the texts we have today are no different that the texts that were delivered to us long ago.The idea that scripture has changed over time is folklore - that is, people believe it because other people say it is true - and not because it is founded on any facts. The reality in this case, is that even after 2000 years we still have impeccable and accurate facsimiles of the originals - no other ancient document on earth is as accurate or attested as our NT. All mysticism and esoteria aside, Christians are not called to place their faith in some uncertain, patchwork document, but in scripture - the most preserved document in all history.Dan/\\/\\/\\

Ok, now that you've changed the title, we see the subject should be one of the "cross". So, this thread should be cross-centered- right? :)

Thats kinda like eating the plate and leaving your breakfast sitting on the table top.HAHA sorry I think that is a funny analogy. Hmm... it amazes me how a thread can start out on one thing and end up being something completely different. I'm not so much talking about this thread.. its pretty much on track, but in alot of them. Are we all just scatterbrained? ;-) although ive done the same thing several times.

Gentlemen, I've been participating in this wonderful forum for about 2 weeks. Though I have found much edification, (God bless you Philo, Mike, Agent 001, and many others.) I gently want to call attention to a certain bitter stream that persists in these fresh waters. I confess it's had an adverse effect on my own spirit.Is being offensive now equated with courage for Christ? What is this cycnical preoccupation with the dark subject matters of fake christians, false gospels, wolves, apostasy, and yeah, even sin? It's unhealthy. Do you also obsess about cancer, HIV, second hand smoke and higher taxes? Of course I must keep vigilant for the true gospel.(Isaiah 37:3, 62:6-7) Now let me demonstrate the true gospel in my own life. Brothers, even after 28 years of walking with the Lord, when I read the sermon on the mount, or the parables I am still given new light as if I had been completely ignorant of their meaning. If I must offend, let it be regrettably through long suffering, not zealous impatience.Am I angry at other Christians for being weaker or less faithful then myself? Here is some salve to apply to my sore:I The moment I take notice of my own righteousness, it vanishes. It's much safer that I look for Jesus being manifested, however faintly, in my precious brothers and sisters. This way I am bound to you for the sake of Perfect Love...not constantly despising your imperfect love.(Zechariah 2:8, Colossians 3:14, Galations 4:19)Am I able to eat the meat of the word while others are still drinking milk? (I feel silly for even talking like this.)Then let me serve them healthy milk, kept pure with living water from my own life and not soured with constant boasting from my lips.(I Corinthians 8:1,3) By the way, I still like milk...it builds strong bones!Have I accepted that everyone else is on a vector of defeat and apostasy unless they hear my voice? Then let me consider a more hopeful vector promised by Jesus. "My sheep hear my voice..." (John 10:27)Finally for you young silverback preachers of the Cross, try meditating on a higher ambition then that of being "Offensive."Let's try being "Hopeful". Now that does require courage! :-) MC

The offence of the cross is within the context of Paul preaching the cross so as to supplant Judaism. The offense of the cross is generally going to come from folk trying to get people under some legalistic religion. If we preach the cross as strong as Paul did we would take some 'fire' but it would not be from folk we might expect. It would be friendly fire from people saying we have watered down the message. He preached the Gospel until people might respond; "Shall we continue in sin because we are not under the law?" He talked about people coming to- "spy out His liberty that he has in Christ." We get into a mess when we think that Spirituality can be gained by making the Gospel into some grievious burden beyond what it is meant to be. Why did the folk at Galatia want to circumcise the people or rather desire to get the people under 'circumcision'? Was there a loss of power? Was there a noticable drop in miracles? Well, he asks, do those who work miracles among you do it by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith? Preaching the Cross will offend, but it will offend those who are caught up in religion. Preaching the Cross will be foolishness to those who esteem themselves wise. The Jews stumbled at it. Why? It was not about them, it was about what Christ did. They could not glory in the flesh anymore if Christ is the end of the law for those who believe. Believe!! They might say to Paul? Are you kidding me? You mean I been keeping this law all these years for nothing? Somebody hand me that stick I'll teach him to make my works of none effect! So he was beaten and stoned and all that. Why? Because Christ through the finished work of the Cross is the end of the law for all those who believe.Spurgeon once wrote; "Salvation by grace, to be sued for in forma pauperis, to be asked for as an undeserved boon from free, unmerited grace, this it is which the carnal mind will not come to as long as it can help it: I beseech the Lord so to work that some of you may not be able to help it. And oh, I have been praying that, while this morning I am trying to set forth Christ as the end of the law, God may bless it to some hearts, that they may see what Christ did, and may perceive it to be a great deal better than anything they can do; may see what Christ finished, and may become weary of what they themselves have laboured at so long, and have not even well commenced at this day. Perhaps it may please the Lord to enchant them with the perfection of the salvation that is in Christ Jesus. As Bunyan would say, "It may, perhaps, set their mouths a watering after it," and when a sacred appetite begins it will not be long before the feast is enjoyed. It may be that when they see the raiment of wrought gold, which Jesus so freely bestows on naked souls, they will throw away their own filthy rags which now they hug so closely.God Bless,-Robert

Hi Jake,Methinks the danger here for Christians is that if they are told the Bible is literal and in the future it is proven to the Church that evolution is a reality, many will fall away because they relied on the "infallibility" of the book.I look at it a different way. With the track record that science has- I would be more concerned by far about trusting their record that proves often to be false and then find out that the testimony of God was sure.

MC,something in your last post rang true for me. Just the other day I was thinking how when my thoughts are focused on Christ alone and just following Him and learning to grow into His likeness- I am always more at peace and at rest. Yet, when my focus changes and I start looking at all the things that are wrong (and yes there are alot of things wrong in the church) I start losing my peace and rest. The best thing we can do for a church gone bad (or an apostacized church) is BE THE CHURCH WE WERE MEANT TO BE OURSELVES. There's no use going around and complaining and voicing all our opinions. It won't do any good. Only a living epistle will do any good.If we spent more time working on following Christ ourselves and doing the things He has asked us to do (feed the hungry, help the elderly and homeless, give to a brother in need, encourage someone who is hurting, speak the truth in love, share the gospel in action as well as words) we wouldn't have as much time to complain and look for every opportunity to find someone to tell our sorry story to.Let's give the church a new demonstration of Christianity (ala Ravenhill).If we are at peace, if we are at rest, if we are able to love without condition, if we are able to be cleansed daily from sins of unforgiveness and other things that we havn't let go of- yes, the rest of the church and the world might take notice.I am not saying that we should ignore or pretend that there is nothing wrong. But we must stop talking so much about it and live as an example. We can talk about it until we are blue in the face, but that doesn't change anything. We need change; Change in ourselves first.Thanks for reminding me of this. In His love, chanin

bubbaguy wrote:Methinks the danger here for Christians is that if they are told the Bible is literal and in the future it is proven to the Church that evolution is a reality, many will fall away because they relied on the "infallibility" of the book.Agreed. That is a great danger - but only if the bible were in fact fallible, and then, only if one of the many current competing evolutionary theories was suddenly deemed valid.In practice however, evolutionary theory continues to evolve itself. The best theory last week, is replaced by a better theory this week - well, at least a competing theory. There are well over 20 major theories competing for supremecy at the moment, and far more minor ones. The consistent pattern in evolutionary theory is that whatever happens to be in vogue today will be so modified tomorrow as to make today's 'hope' a laughable fancy.As we learn more about our world, the number of competing theories increases, and the complexities in the competing theories continues also to increase. if we were to graph it, we would see that we are not moving towards an evolutionary solution - but in fact, we are moving away from one. Each day that science fails to prove evolution - they move statistically farther away from doing so.Said another way, statistically speaking, if we haven't proven it by now, it will be less and less likely that we will ever prove it. The danger then lies more in the other direction - that is, what if the bible --is-- infallible, and a person fails to treat it as such. They would pick and choose what they felt was good to believe and discard the rest. In the end, they would create their own God out of the pieces they liked from the bible. They would be idolators - and worse - they would be deceived, imagining that {what} they were worshipping {was} the real God, when in fact they {had only ever been} worshipping a reflection of their own {projected} desires.So yes, there is danger - but of the two, the greater danger is to imagine the bible is fallible - in my opinion.Dan/\\/\\/\\edited: Wherever you see curly braces {} it marks an addition or correction.

Methinks the danger here for Christians is that if they are told the Bible is literal and in the future it is proven to the Church that evolution is a reality, many will fall away because they relied on the "infallibility" of the book....it seems to me, I heard that song before...just a few dozen times! The Christianity that weds itself to the contemporary scienctific notions of the day is more likely to find itself a widow tomorrow.

Robert,I think this comment deserves it's own frame or something.The offense of the cross is generally going to come from folk trying to get people under some legalistic religion. If we preach the cross as strong as Paul did we would take some 'fire' but it would not be from folk we might expect. It would be friendly fire from people saying we have watered down the message.Seriously, I was tremendously edified by your entire post. I plan on sharing your thoughts, (and Spurgeons) on the "offense" of the cross with some friends.Chanin, I love these two words together:Living EpistlesTogether, they form a concise yet complete mission statement for a Christian. Bubbaguy, thanks for that blessing. I was wondering if this discussion on origins couldn't evolve into it's own thread. ;-) I would participate in it. I've been involved in related activities such as illustrating restorations of fossils, and I'm currently consulting with several CG animators to help AIG in planning a project on the Ark and the flood. I agree with you that belief in a literal 6 day creation is not essential for salvation. However, aside from the exaustive volleys of scientific data back and forth, I think there is a fruitful conversation to be had about how this debate is ultimately fueled by philosophic necessicity, and not true unbiased observation. Blessings everyone,ps. Thanks to whoever edited the title of this thread.

If I may, the offense of the Cross of Jesus should never come from the person delivering the message. I think that thought has been fairly well established. The offense of the Cross is simply in the Cross itself. German theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote, "When Christ calls a man He bids him come and die." You cannot read the words of Jesus or the Epistles without coming to the realization that, in order to follow Jesus, the self must die. Jesus said that any man who was not willing to take up his own cross and follow was not worthy to be called His disciple. The expression of taking up ne's own cross has to do simply with proceeding to the place of execution. I would refer all interested parties to a wonderful article (found here in this site) by AW Pink called simply "Cross-Bearing." It details the nature of bearing a cross and, really, the reason the word of the Cross is offensive. As for the nature of the evolution discussion, I don't know if believing in the literal six day creation is necessary for salvation. I do know, however, that I feel a great sense of pity for those who are unable to accept it as a literal account. My God is big enough to what the Bible says He did and, therefore, I accept His account. If your conception of God is not big enough to do it, I feel sorry for you.Humbly in Christ's Love,Alan

I edited my post and have decided not to say anything.