The Good Ship Christ's Church and His Beloved Battleship America

The Good Ship Christ's Church and His Beloved Battleship America

The battleship America's materials for her construction were gathered together by the Puritans and Pilgrims in the 1600s. Her mission was to preach the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ to the world and “Destroy the Works of the Devil” over the whole seven seas. The metal for her keel was brought forth from the Holy fires of the Great Awakening from 1732 to 1760 in which the “Sons Of The Republic' cut their teeth, grew up and matured on the preaching and teaching of George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards. It wasn't unusual for twenty to thirty thousand people to show up and hear the Grand Internant preacher George Whitefield preaching searching and scorching messages in the open field in which he whipped up the holy fires of revival to white hot. Patrick Henry himself received the New Birth through the preaching of George Whitefield.

Immersed in the fires of the Great Awakening and living in the wake of them, Heaven released a new form of government based on the Bible and the Mayflower Compact. From these foundational pillars of truth manifested our Constitutional Republic.

“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” John Adams

A new form of government that came with a price of eternal vigilance and diligence. The people had to be watchmen on the wall or on the “Bridge” to protect the freedoms and liberties that were bestowed upon them by their Creator God. Also to protect from Satan's messengers who would constantly try to board the ship coming up the mooring lines that were there to hold the ship in secure position to the pier.

After the original “plank owner” crew members passed on, the new crew that took their place forgot that their vessel and mission was to be a battleship for the Kingdom Of God. They started reveling in “Liberty For The Crew” and visited every foreign port around. Watches were relieved early so the watchmen could get off the ship early so they could get out and party at all the foreign “ports of calls”.
The Deck-hands even stopped putting “rat guards” on the mooring lines to keep the destructive rodents off the ship and out of the ship's stores because it cut into their Liberty time. Soon foreigners were on board. They got on easy because just like the deck hands didn't install the rat guards, the Quarter Deck watch wasn't checking IDs of people coming on board to “check things out”.

Over time the old faithful crew was completely changed out with a new Commander and Crew. Soon all the 16 inch gun turrets were removed and replaced with game rooms, massage parlors, large Banquet halls, gambling casinos, smoking rooms and bars and lounges. Soon the Battleship America was gradually transformed into a Carnival Cruise Lines Cruise Ship: Vanity Fare. It offered everything a heart could desire, and it's new crew were made up of cowards, liars, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers and idol worshipers.

We can thank the old crew, the plank owners, who christened in blood that 53 thousand ton armor- plated beauty, that helped evangelize the world for Christ in those early days, while helping the Lord of Heavens Army destroy the works of the Devil. It was the new commander and crew of Vanity Fare, that was and is on watch now they over saw the refitting of the Battleship America into Vanity Fare.

The Church forgot that the Christian Faith is a total World view: spiritual , physical , mental, financial and social, seeing everything through the prism of the Bible like the Plank Owner Crew did. The Vanity Fare crew compartmentalized and agreed and reminded everyone they did not get involved in the affairs of men like government or “politics” even though those spheres of our reality dictated enormous influence on the people.

It was the Church's job to make sure godly Christians were sent to leadership. It was the church's job to sound the alarm from the roof tops when an elected leader was trying to initiate ungodliness into our laws and government that would help destroy the people. It was the Church's job
not to allow the mindset of the people to be established where they would call evil good and good evil bringing about their destruction. It was the Church's job not to allow hirelings to slither up the mooring lines of the Good Ship Christ's Church. It was the Church's job to send out a war cry in 1948 when Justice Hugo Black separated Christ's influence on our government and the governed in the Separation of Church and State, a lying Scam. It was the Church's job to demand impeachment of the Justices who foolishly banned prayer and Bible reading in the schools in 1962 and 1963 influenced by only 3% of the population of which were atheists. It was the Churche's job to shout from the roof tops the 45 communist goals(the Devils form of government for man) for the take over and destruction of America in January 1963 that were read into the congressional record. Goal #28 was to take away the enlightening of our God to our children by banning Bible reading in the schools which was accomplished on June 17th 1963. It only took them 6 months to get it done after the goal was revealed to the Congress on January 10th 1963. Just like Balaam was able to show Balak how to curse the Israelites by getting them to sin against their God. It was the Church's job to storm Washington and demand the impeachment of Justice Harry Blackman and his other minions in 1973 for the diabolical evil of abortion causing American to be guilty of murder defiling the land. It was the Church's job to run out Congress and impeach the Supreme court for daring in 1980 to ban the 10 commandments the very foundation of our laws from the view of our children in the schools. This and everything else that has happened is laid at the feet of the Church of Vanity Fare as they're having a real good time pigging in the banquet rooms and drinking and partying as the new twisted crew.

The good news is that a remnant has been praying for years for revival in America again. Just like it was only a remnant that declared Independence and birthed a new nation. Most of the people were loyalists who did not want to break away from England, until of course they started seeing a possible victory, then they started waving their patriotic flags when all the work was done and it was time to enjoy all those benefits of freedom. Then you could hear the “Yes, Amen’s” and the Star Spangled banners all over the place.

Yes, a remnant crew that will help steer her back to safe harbor. A remnant that will not abandon ship during the most perilous time of her existence. See “Washington’s Vision” In this vision Washington saw (3) perils to Americas existence. (1) The Revolutionary War, (2) The Civil War, and (3) a battle on American soil from enemies within and without. The American people were about to be overcome and Heaven stepped in and helped them overcome. Redemption and revival though judgment. America being re-purified through fiery trials of war on American soil. Steering America back to her destiny, like Jonah, a prodigal that comes back faithful! God remembering as stated in Psalm 112, the good deeds of the righteous that birthed this nation. George Washington, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, and the other great men and women of that era and later that poured everything out for this nation. In His Mercy not letting America be turned into Hell as all other nations who forget God.

See Jeremiah 23 1-4 Now, the “Loyalists” to the journeys of the Vanity Fare who watched the Battleship America and her Mother Ship the Good Ship Christ's Church get dismantled and destroyed without even uttering a muffled peep: You'll get your testing too! During this time of Redemption through judgment on American soil, your passive and “non judgmental” view of the dismantling of the Good Ship Christ's Church and His Beloved Battleship America being refitted for work that was the exact opposite of their calling will bring about your testing. You will be the first to be lead away. You know, “Separation of Church and State”. You ok'd the development of the circumstances by your silence. You will get an opportunity to develop your faith which is more precious then gold, if it's real, like the beautiful saint Corry Ten Boom was purified, since you didn't think the Church needed to be concerned about who the people's leaders were.... or be involved in “political issues” or what laws were passed and how they lined up with what the Bible had to say about it. Read up on Corry Ten Boom and while you're at it, read up on Richard Wumberland. Because the judgment you helped position America into is about to roll you out of your pews, “bedhead” and all, along with the rest of your hireling preachers...fitting for your treachery against Jesus Christ and His Kingdom!

Washington's Vision the Third Peril
Again I heard a mysterious voice saying,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
At this the dark, shadowy angel placed a trumpet to his mouth, and blew three distinct blasts; and taking water from the ocean, he sprinkled it upon Europe, Asia, and Africa.
Then my eyes beheld a fearful scene. From each of these continents arose thick black clouds that were soon joined into one. And throughout this mass there gleamed a dark red light by which I saw hordes of armed men. These men, moving with the cloud marched by land and sailed by sea to America, which country was enveloped in the volume of the cloud. And I dimly saw these vast armies devastate the whole country and burn the villages, towns and cities, which I had seen spring up.
     As my ears listened to the thundering of the cannon, clashing of swords, and the shouts and cries of millions in mortal combat, I again heard the mysterious voice saying,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
When the voice had ceased, the dark shadowy angel placed his trumpet once more to his mouth, and blew a long and fearful blast.  Instantly a light, as of a thousand suns shone down from above me, and pierced and broke into fragments of the dark cloud, which enveloped America. At the same moment the angel upon whose head still shown the word 'Union,' and who bore our national flag in one hand and a sword in the other, descended from the heavens attended by legions of white spirits. These immediately joined the inhabitants of America, who I perceived were well-nigh over come, but who immediately taking courage again, closed up their broken ranks, and renewed battle.
Again amid the fearful voice of the conflict I heard the mysterious voice say,
"Son of the Republic, look and learn."
As the voice ceased, the shadowy angel for the last time dipped the water from the ocean and sprinkled it upon America. Instantly the dark clouds rolled back, together with the armies it had brought, leaving the inhabitants of the land victorious.
     Then once more I beheld the villages, towns and cities springing up where I had seem them before, while the bright angel, planting the azure standard cried with a loud voice:
"While the stars remain, and the heavens send down dew upon the earth, so long shall the Union last."
And taking from his brow the crown, which blazoned the word 'Union,' he placed it down upon the standard while the people, kneeling down said, 'Amen.'
The scene instantly began to fade and dissolve, and I at last saw nothing but the rising, curling vapor, I at first beheld. This also disappeared, and I found myself once more gazing upon the mysterious visitor who, in the same voice I heard before said,
"Son of the Republic, what you have seen is thus interpreted: Three great perils will come upon the Republic. The most fearful for her is the third. But the whole world united shall not prevail against her. Let every child of the Republic learn to live for his God, his land and Union."
     With these words the vision vanished, and I started from my seat and felt that I had seen a vision wherein had been showed me the birth, progress, and destiny of the United States."

bearmaster, i was all set to disagree with u until i read your post in its entirety. i agree w/what u had to say, brother.

also, there is much that was good and still is good about america, but we must divorce ourselves from the thought that america is a christian nation, or that god favors america. he doesnt. at least in this present age. great revivals are going on around the world, but in america we think revivals are those circuses that we see on trinity broadcasting network. shameful.

i luv america. thats why i weep for her.

RE: ///Immersed in the fires of the Great Awakening and living in the wake of them, Heaven released a new form of government based on the Bible and the Mayflower Compact. From these foundational pillars of truth manifested our Constitutional Republic.///

I have been interested in researching the last few weeks on how or what impact the Great Awakening had in causing the "Presbyterian Rebellion" or American Revolution,

John Wesely oppossed the American Revolution but afterwards acknowledged Gods sovereign hand in the outcome.

I myself also am not convinced that the American Revolution was a Just War, But I must confess that the forefathers did use the Biblical principles in creating our Goverment System in which though slandered by many, has been I believe, the most superior Government system ever created, of which I am thankful.

Just some thoughts, I have been struggling with, while I meditate and study the character of Jesus Christ as potrayed in the Scripture, I do not personaly find Him as One of taking up muskets and fighting in the American Revolution, But who can deny Gods sovereighn hand in the outcome.

How quickly revivle leaves and our focus becomes one of this world, but even then how long some of the wounderful blessings from a great revivle continue to bless us. I see this reality both in the research I have done on great revivles and of my own personal revivles in my life.

(Revive us Again, OH Lord!!)

Just jangling on some random unfor sure thoughts that I have been struggling with.

but on another note:

hiscomm, This artical is pure genius at the very least and absoulute wounderful.

///Please do not equate Corrie Ten Boon and Richard Wormbrandt patriotic Americans. These saints suffered for their faith in Christ Jesus.///

And What Country Did both Corrie Ten Boon and Richard Wormbrandt move to ?

Well I don't know if the writer believes that America is the Church, I didn't get that impression from the article. In fact I don't know anyone who believes America is the Church.

What I do know is that America has a godly heritage that she has turned her back on and this should cause us to weep and howl. It is altogether right that we should seek the Lord very earnestly and confess, repent, and pray for this nation like we've never prayed before.

God has given us the weapon of prayer. Now we have the opportunity to restrain the powers of darkness, save souls, experience divine intervention and mitigate the judgements of God. The daily news should be enough to provoke an immediate response of prayer.

In Christ,

Ron

The point of the article is that the Church in America was given a gift to be able to serve Christ in political freedom. Before America most people lived under tyranny. The freedom that was passed down to us for most people in the world that live under communist rule they would think they have died and went to heaven. The Christian faith is a total world view that a real Christian lives life through the prism of the Bible. So everything he does is according to the word of God. His marriage, his family, his recreation, his money his community and his government. Spiritual, Physical, Mental Financial Social. Christianity addresses all these areas. As a Christian you are held accountable for all these areas by God. To much is given much will be required. The American was given political Freedom to serve Christ and to evanglize the rest of the world, to set the captives free. America was to help evangelize countries and then pass on a Constitutional Republic to those nations so with dilligence they could enjoy those same liberties that was passed on to us. Up through 1800s we were a strong vibrant Christian nation that honored God from the Top down, as a result we were blessed. But something happened. While the American Christian church was floating around in the 2nd Heaven, they seemed to of forgot that they were responsible for the Spiritual tone down here on Earth. Especially in America. Well, one of the temporal things we were responsible for was our political freedom so we could be free to advance the Gospel to other nations The American Church was to stand in the Gap pray for our leaders and keep a close tab on what our government did and when we saw things that were contrary to the Word of God it was to be shouted from the roof tops and stopped in it's tracks and it wouldn't be long till the wayward one would be removed from office. Up to the 1900s every election cycle half the congress was usually voted out. Just think, the process of making the laws of the land either righteous laws or unrighteous law and what does the Church say "We don't get involved in that"
Well since you don't get involved in that you got alot of blood on your hands because you were supposed to be involved in that. It'was called being a citizen in Heaven and Earth and sitting at the City Gate and being some wisdom for the Heathen, and who knows he might come to Christ! You let one law get passed that has killed over 50 million babies. And you let even more policies and law that you should of been praying about and shouting about but no you couldn't get out of the Heavenlies!. A whole nation of youth has been destroyed. So we let many get killed in the womb and when they get out of the womb their open season to the devil because the Church let the Devil take over America! Now, since the Church was responsible for being diligent and watchman on the wall and it has failed to do so America will suffer great judgement. it wasn't because it was prophisied it was because the Church failed to occupy the territory it was given. So the next time your lamenting about the 4000 babies that are killed a week, or you can't preach on the streets anymore, or you can't speak the truth about homosexuality or when they haul you off we can all take a collective finger in America and turn it around and point ourselves in the face and say thanx, these are the circumstances I or we created and repent!

Jeremiah 23:1“I will send disaster upon the leaders of my people—the shepherds of my sheep—for they have destroyed and scattered the very ones they were expected to care for,” says the LORD.
2This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to these shepherds: “Instead of leading my flock to safety, you have deserted them and driven them to destruction. Now I will pour out judgment on you for the evil you have done to them.

As brother Greg posted earlier. Our choice us either to listen to Jesus Christ or George WShington. I will take Jesus over George any day.

This doesn't make a very compelling argument, if we take this to its logical conclusion then we have to ask ourselves what is the point of this website? There are many others here to listen to, but I guess my choice is either Jesus or the whole list of persons under the Audio/Text/Video Sermons links.

However, I understand that Jesus Christ, the Living Word; and the Bible, the written Word, must ever and always be the Christian's true standard but this does not mean we should never consider what other believers have to say, rather we must consider what is said in light of the true standard in Berean-like manner.

So, perhaps pointing out in detail how Mr. Washington's words fall short of the true standard would be more helpful to us all. Thanks.

If anything it is the American church that nerds to weep and wail over its sin.

Indeed, as members of our nations, we share accountability for their sins, crimes, and blasphemies. We can no longer go through life without giving the response of prayer. God is waiting for our prayers, He longs to help and save.

The example of Daniel's prayer in chapter 9 is a valuable one. Daniel's starting point is prayer and supplication with sackcloth and ashes signifying contrition and repentance for his sins. He faces up to his own sins and confesses them, thereby identifying with the great sin and guilt of his people.

Like Daniel's people, we are a nation under divine judgment; we need the courage to pray like Daniel and humble ourselves, such prayer reaches the heart of God.

In Christ,

Ron

Hi bearmaster

bearmaster wrote ///PP to the best of my knowledge Corrue Ten Boon remained in Holland where she died///

"Corrie died in Placentia, California on April 15, 1983. She died on her 91st birthday"
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=22002

///Richard Wormbrandt was redeemed from Rumanian prison for 15;000 dollars and was later brought to America.///

Why America, Why do so many refuges of persecution always have and always do come to America??

bearmaster wrote
///You are aware that the Anabaptist believed they were citizens of a heavenly kingdom?///

brother bear, I am a Bible Believing Christian, I attend a church that is of anabaptist heritage, When comparing history I find the Anabaptist supiour to that of the Protestantism history
but I am not bound by Anababtist theology, I do not agree with Menno and others concerning the incarnation, do you??

But having said that I am not Patriotic, I did not vote in the last two presidential elections, But I am thankful for the freedoms that we are Blessed with!+
I do not pray for persecution to fall upon me, Even though I believe it will happen soon.

((read my first post))

William Penn and the quakers believed'they were citizens of a heavenly kingdom' Penn suffered persecution for his beliefs. But Penn was also founder of the Province of Pennsylvania which gave the Anabaptist a place to refuge.

bear wrote

If anything it is the American church that nerds to weep and wail over its sin.

InTheLight responded ///Indeed, as members of our nations, we share accountability for their sins, crimes, and blasphemies. We can no longer go through life without giving the response of prayer. God is waiting for our prayers, He longs to help and save.///

Yes, and this Is what I personaly felt as the jist of the artical.

It is ashame when brethren can not share anything that slightly includes thankfulness for the religious freedoms that we have in the US or anything about being discouraged at the rapid rate of which these freedoms are declining, without being attacked by others as not living or focusing enough on the right kingdom.

The clever proponents of evil political ideologies are spending millions to make us Americans ashamed to love our country. By the use of all available media of communication they are persuading our people that there is little left worth defending and certainly nothing worth dying for.They are building up in the public mind a picture of an American as a generous, tolerant, smiling chap who loves baseball and babies but is not too much concerned about fringe political theories. This synthetic American subscribes to the doctrine of the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man and lets go fishing-everything will be all right. And so in religion, especially among the Protestants. Let a man rise to declare the unique Lordship of Jesus Christ and the absolute necessity of obedience to Him and he is at once branded as a hatemonger and a divider of men. The devil has brainwashed large numbers of religious leaders so successfully that they are now too timid to resist him. And he, being the kind of devil he is, takes swift advantage of their cowardice to erect altars to Baal everywhere. The Bible is a book of controversy. The Old Testament prophets were men of contention. Our Lord Jesus while on earth was in deadly conflict with the devil. The Apostles, the Church Fathers and the Reformers were men of controversy. They fought the devil to the death and kept the torch of truth burning for all succeeding generations. Is our contribution to history to be the ignoble one of letting the torch go out?

By A.W. Tozer
Keep the Torch Burning

The American was given political Freedom to serve Christ and to evanglize the rest of the world, to set the captives free. America was to help evangelize countries and then pass on a Constitutional Republic to those nations so with dilligence they could enjoy those same liberties that was passed on to us. Up through 1800s we were a strong vibrant Christian nation that honored God from the Top down, as a result we were blessed. Hiscomm

what about a little thing called slavery? millions and millions of blacks held in chains, many murdered and raped. Some were treated better than others, but they had no freedom and it was illegal to teach them to even read in some states. this is what u call a “strong vibrant Christian nation that honored God from the Top down”? and after 2 centuries of slavery americans butchered themselves to the tune of over 600,000 men in a brutal war. after that the south was ravaged by carpet baggers and opportunists (carpetbaggers) who took advantage of both whites and blacks, stealing their land and what little money they had left. later president grant was elected and his terms were wrought with corruption. is this the “strong vibrant Christian nation that honored God from the Top down” you speak of? what about the land-grab of the western frontier which involved the wiping out of a race of people? forcing them onto reservations and providing them with whiskey creating a alcoholism on a grand scale percentage-wise. raping the women, killing the men, forcing families to live in squauler and poverty; all sanctioned by the government, the so-called “top” u speak of.

think about what u r saying from a logical stand point. u agree that the nation has gone downhill around 1900. slavery ended in 1865. so when america was at her most righteous, according 2 ur calculations, was when she had the institution of slavery. ever since slavery ended america has gotten further and further from righteousness. now surely u r not making that connection, but if we follow ur words out 2 their logical conclusion this IS what u r saying.

i think, brother, that u need 2 read a lot less david burton, and visit ur local library and study american history w/out burtons slant and twisting and agenda.

i luv america, and there are many great things about this country! but we can not close our eyes and pretend that american was or is sumthing that it isnt. ur version of american history is about as factual as the old disney movies about davy crocket. long on myth and fantasy and absent of real facts, but very entertaining.

we r supposed to be people of truth. lets start being that.

Well Brother as you know slavery had been around for about 5000 years plus. In Rome and other powers at the time and before, up to half the population would be typically slaves. You could end up that way for all kinds of reasons. Thee typical way would be invasion of your country. As you know, the societies were agricultural. As you know it wasn't till 1833 that slavery was abolished in the British empire. So slavery was not new on the block. Just like abortion to you today is nothing new. As you know many of the Founders were abolitionist and set their slaves free. Charles G Finney said he felt that the only way to get rid of slavery was war. Revivals filled the land just before the war and through the war. Not saying we were perfect but kept trudging. But see friend were not talking about the passed away church were talking about the hear and now, and that generation in which your talking about did bring about revivals in their times and did bring about great social change for people. What has our generation of the Church done except lose the gains we once had. I put up one last post on this thread for your review and ponderance and I think it completely explains my general views on the subject you know we can be on here for days battering back and forth but it is possible we can find nuggets of truth in our discussions that will help the cause of Christ. Thanks for your comments

Where did we get out of the article choose Washington or Christ? Washington was the chosen vessel to help bring about the birth of this nation. Washington was a follower of Christ. God is nationalistic. He has and does reward nations that follow him and honor him. He also crushes nations that rebel against him. It hasn't changed! The same today as yesterday. America was a picked nation, if you study your history you would find that would be the case. This article was not to promote Patriotism. It was to lament our fall as a nation from righteousness and to remind where the responsibility lies. The Church that lives in America. I like you, are disgusted when I observe the 911 remembrances. Not about the people that were lost but our nation did not repent and turn from our wicked ways. I felt that was a warning that was not heeded. I too believe that since WW2 we really have fallen away and totally downhill since 1960. As you probably have read God did give the different peoples their own boundaries. As you read about the promise land the Israelite had to ask permission to cross those boundaries and most of the time they didn't get it. Within those boundaries where the people lived they were commanded to serve God in those boundaries. They were commanded within those boundaries too full commitment. If the leaders found a murdered person in the fields even though the local community knew nothing about it they had too show repentance to clear them of possible guilt because it was in their sphere of influence. You must have really been upset when the Israelites went to lands that God told them to take and Kill everyone, men women and children. Likewise when the Assyrians went into Israel and they were told to sweep them from the land. As God is the same as He was yesterday he operates the same way. When Christians came to the new world and took the land whether they were perfect or not the Pagans were displaced i.e., the Indians. Their Pagan cup of sin had filled up to the top and they were swept from the land as a result of their sin of paganism. And I might add we in America are in danger of that very thing: being swept from the land. So in closing , the undeniable biblical facts are God is nationalistic, God sets boundaries and borders for nations, God blesses nations and curses nations according to their loyalty to him. It's the same today as it was 4000 years ago the same program. God sends visions just like he did Peter. God sends angels to help his cause. Gods sends elaborate visions to enhance the message. And you as an individual Christian are responsible for your sphere of influence. That means for you if live in a communistic type government where you have no control or input you are to pray for your leaders. If you live in a Constitutional Republic where the Individual is charged to participate in His or Her government and cast votes and be watchman on the wall in the process and you did not and the government gets out of control and passes all kinds of ungodly laws, your responsible by your sin of neglect and apathy because you had a say in what was to be done and chose (choices) to do nothing. We will be judged as an accessory to the crimes of America and be held accountable if we don’t repent and turn from you wicked irresponsible ways. Hopefully this will explain my little take on this subject and it has brought up my own neglect in my own spheres of influence that needs repentance!

A.W. tozer

The Apostles, the Church Fathers and the Reformers were men of controversy. They fought the devil to the death and kept the torch of truth burning for all succeeding generations. Is our contribution to history to be the ignoble one of letting the torch go out? Tozer

amrkelly responded to the A.A. Tozer quote ///And thats conceited as well. Just in case you didn't think anyone would say it brother. I have.///

In a forum so filled with conceite, I am never shocked at the responses.

I did not write the A.W. Tozer quote, Tozer did. I do not agree completely with it, if much of any of it,
My point is that their are Christians whoms lives prove which Kingdom they where of yet still had and have a thankfulness to live in a free country and that are pro American.

It would appear from many on these Forums, that to be of the Kingdom would mean that we must be hypercritical and despise America and to speak evil of those freedoms that we are blessed to have.

Very interesting thread with good arguments on both sides. I recently saw this video and thought I'd share it here as I think it makes a good case along the lines of the OP. It's a message delivered at the the Presidential Inaugural Prayer Breakfast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mhRBOKb_6I

Interested in hearing your thoughts on it?

Well Brother as you know slavery had been around for about 5000 years plus. In Rome and other powers at the time and before, up to half the population would be typically slaves. You could end up that way for all kinds of reasons. Thee typical way would be invasion of your country. As you know, the societies were agricultural. As you know it wasn't till 1833 that slavery was abolished in the British empire. So slavery was not new on the block. Just like abortion to you today is nothing new. As you know many of the Founders were abolitionist and set their slaves free. Charles G Finney said he felt that the only way to get rid of slavery was war. Revivals filled the land just before the war and through the war. Not saying we were perfect but kept trudging. But see friend were not talking about the passed away church were talking about the hear and now, and that generation in which your talking about did bring about revivals in their times and did bring about great social change for people. What has our generation of the Church done except lose the gains we once had. I put up one last post on this thread for your review and ponderance and I think it completely explains my general views on the subject you know we can be on here for days battering back and forth but it is possible we can find nuggets of truth in our discussions that will help the cause of Christ. Thanks for your comments

nice song and dance, brother, but you are the one who said up until 1900 america was a vibrant christian nation. a christian 'utopia' of sorts. exactly which founding fathers set their slaves free? u make slavery sound like boy scout camp, but there is a big difference between sum1 3000 yrs ago who was on the losing end of a war and became a slave, and going to the otherside of the world and capturing and kidnapping men, women and children and putting them on a putrid slave ship full of disease, chaining them in a laying down position (rack 'em and stack 'em) for weeks while they are shipped to america and then sold.

this is what a vibrant christian nation was doing. i agree that the country was divided over it. we all know that. but still half the vibrant christian nation condoned and participated in it and USED SCRIPTURE to defend it.

i am not dragging america through the mud, but i am pointing out that the rosey "david burton" america did not exist. u have read too much revisionist history.

Wonder if David Barton knows this?

not likely.

america may have been a christian utopia for white folks, but i believe the blacks, american indians and the japanese might see things a little differently.

Let me remind you friend, and I know this might be upsetting, but the English was much afraid about going into the jungles to retrieve slaves because of the exotic diseases they were getting. So the dominant and enterprising Black tribes of the region saw this as an opportunity to make a nice income. So they did the actual rounding up of the weaker tribes and sold them for profit since the European did not want to risk going into the jungle. About the Founders about 75% of them were abolitionist. But since they couldn't get agreement with the all the delegates they omitted the slavery aspect out of the Declaration. Yes; many, if not most founding fathers, were abolitionists. It has been stated that as many as 75% of all the signers of the Declaration of Independence were abolitionists. The abolitiontionist movement began as early as 1773. By 1804, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, New York, and New Jersey had passed laws to help release slaves and outlaw importation of new slaves. Even Thomas Jefferson, who had once owned nearly six hundred slaves himself, proposed the abolition of slavery in Virginia in 1778 and again in 1796.

(A portion of the original draft of the Declaration of Independence denouncing slavery is provided as a transcription below. It was removed from the final document in order to secure the unanimous vote needed for approval, Georgia and South Carolina refused to vote for independence as long as this paragraph was in the Declaration. See link below. And remember it took England 50 years to ban slavery in England thanx to the work of William Wilberforce.

Yes; many, if not most founding fathers, were abolitionists. It has been stated that as many as 75% of all the signers of the Declaration of Independence were abolitionists. The abolitiontionist movement began as early as 1773. By 1804, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, New York, and New Jersey had passed laws to help release slaves and outlaw importation of new slaves. Even Thomas Jefferson, who had once owned nearly six hundred slaves himself, proposed the abolition of slavery in Virginia in 1778 and again in 1796.

(A portion of the original draft of the Declaration of Independence denouncing slavery is provided as a transcription below. It was removed from the final document in order to secure the unanimous vote needed for approval, Georgia and South Carolina refused to vote for independence as long as this paragraph was in the Declaration.

Transcription
"...he has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the Christian king of Great Britain. [determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold,] he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them, thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another...")

Source: http://www.revolutionarywararchives.org/slavery.HTML

Also let me give you another historical fact that might disturb you. The origination of our Founder Bashing was an actual Stated goal of the Cold War Communists for take over of America in 1963. On Jan 10th 1963 These goals were actually read into the conressional record.

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

So just remember as you bash the founders and paint them by your 'revised" history not based on their writings, your going along with the actual plans and tactics of Communists who had 45 goals for the overthrow of America. Which most of those goals have been realized The Communists who literally murdered over 149 million of their fellow citizens in the 20th century alone. By listening to your anger against America maybe if you experience living under a communist regime and experiencing their form of government you might welcome living in a country that had such wicked and twisted founders that birthed such an evil racist government.

Well Bearmaster I think I have been quite utterly clear on my spiritual outlook on these things. I'm surprised that you could not see this. It was quite simple. I as a person who lives on the earth and is responsible to God for my sphere of influence on the Earth. My relationship to my God, My family, My work and my fellowman. I live in a country that has a form of government that in order to work properly the citizens are charged with participating and watching over it as a duty to God because when I don't it will cause my family and my neighbor harm.

“You seen to think our identity as believers is tied to America as a nation.” No, what I said and I said it in no uncertain terms is that our demise into an utterly wicked nation is from the neglect of the church in America to be watchman on the wall and pray for the country you live in and to stand up for truth and righteousness and not let the devil to destroy it. You must think those activities are carnal don't you. The form of government you live under if you live in America demands you participate in it as your sacred duty to maintain your freedoms that you live under. I'm afraid friend you are to occupy hear or do business hear until you die. I'm afraid friend your eternity is based on how you live hear. Our identity is not tied up in America or any country. But you have responsibility to your family and community and that's part of your witness to the world. What don't you understand about that. What do you got to say about Roe Vs Wade? It's over 50 million now and 40 years. Was that not a spiritual battle that was lost? Was the church praying and standing up for truth and righteousness in 1973 in every way possible? No it was silent, the church was too busy up in the heaven lies discussing water baptism techniques. Let me get real spiritual on you. The church in America has blood on it's hands and it's guilty for the rampant sin in America. It's guilty for the conduct of America whatever spiritual state it was at it's founding, it spiritual state is utterly dead now. And if you don't see that and you see yourself as a leader or an elder in the Church of Jesus Christ we are in deep deep trouble. I'll leave you a verse that sums up my posts in general if you couldn't understand them. I'll boil it down to these verses and you'll understand what I was trying to say. I'll remind you again of the spiritual concept of :you are responsible for your sphere of influence or where you live, in other words you and I are responsible for the sin in America. The Church in America is responsible for it's downfall and you will be held accountable. While your running around confessing you belong to another Kingdom your going to be held responsible for the demise of America because you lived here and you didn't think the country you lived in was to be your concern. You will be held as an acessory to the crimes of America that you allowed to happen because of your neglect and dereliction to your duty in your sphere influence. You are guilty. Especially, if you don't confess and repent of your neglect. If we don't realize this and keep going on in our wicked ways Revival will not come in our life time and we will eat the consequences and I hope your getting ready for that possibility. I hope this is clear enough as a summary of my posts and I hope you can see a spiritual connection to this. I hope you study this out in your Bible and you will find this theme throughout.

Jeremiah 23 1“I will send disaster upon the leaders of my people—the shepherds of my sheep—for they have destroyed and scattered the very ones they were expected to care for,” says the LORD.
2This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says to these shepherds: “Instead of leading my flock to safety, you have deserted them and driven them to destruction. Now I will pour out judgment on you for the evil you have done to them.

excellent points jim.

to the original poster, I do believe bearmaster is putting words in ur mouth, but he also makes a good point.

i am not against america. a LOVE america and i am very grateful to live here. it truly is the greatest country in the world (imho) in regards 2 freedom, justice, etc. nowhere in the world is there a country where people are clamoring to get in like they do here. nowhere.

nostalgia is nice. we all like to think back to our high school days and we remember it fondly. its all airbrushed in our memories, but rarely do we recall how much we hated it when we went thru it.

there were many founding fathers who were believers, and certainly the america culture had more reverence for the things of god. we all know this to be true. BUT what I take issue is when u said America was a "vibrant christian nation" and full of righteousness. while there was righteousness, it was far from being a christian utopia, and that's a fact. that IS NOT founders bashing, its simply the truth of the matter.

the fact that africans went into the jungles and captured their own and sold them into slavery does not clear Americas guilt at the time. if there were no market for human trafficking then it would not have been happening.

then we proceeded to wipe out the american indians with no apology, breaking every oath the government made. when colonists stood up for their rights and fought for their freedom we herald them as heroes and founding fathers. when the Indians did the same we called them savages and cut their throats and raped their women.

so please, while it is true that america gave lip service to god (and acknowledging that many of its citizens were very sincere in their faith!), there was also a dark and ugly side to America.

this cannot be denied, and acknowledging that duz not make one a founder basher or a communist, my friend. it simply makes me a person interested in TRUTH.

since u have not denied being a fan of the so-called "historian" david barton (who is even being criticized by christian and conservative historians for being a flake) I must warn u that this mixing of christianity with the mormon cult (via david barton and GLENN BECK) is actually more dangerous 2 america than communism ever was. if communism had or ever did take over America it would probably result in the greatest spiritual revival in American history. mixing christianity and mormonism will deceive people into hell, a much worse fate!

tell david barton i said hello.

I am closing this tread to prevent another political debate. Brethren, I believe the enemy is delighted when believers argue about these things. One of his greatest decoys is to get believers to argue with earthly politics rather than wrestle against spiritual principalities. It is not the flag which is to be our focus, but the prince of the power of the air blowing through it.