Richard Dawkins Lecture- Should I attend?

I received an invitation to a live lecture by Richard Dawkins. The title is "The Science of Beauty and the Beauty of Science." I was thinking of taking my children who are home schooled and are very well educated on the science of creation, so I don't have any concern about them being convinced by him. I thought it might be an educational experience for them. However, I also think it might be a complete waste of time.

I was just wondering what others here might think.

In Christ,
Natalie

It's hard to give certain advice to others on this one, but I would take my children if I had the opportunity.

amrkelly wrote: //The thought of sitting my children at the feet of Richard Dawkins makes me personally shudder. Even the title of the lecture is a lie. Not because the visible universe is not the creation of God, but because Richard Dawkins can only use it in a deceptive way. He does not believe in a creation, he believes that life began on a crystal.//

I agree. I would never let them sit "at the feet of Richard Dawkins." I am simply taking them to listen to what he has to say. They have watched many of his debates on the internet and I believe that they are well prepared already. My husband was a science instructor and really taught us about science and evolution. I would never let them attend if I did not think they were prepared. Also, I would attend with them. I have some science training as well, so none of this would be over my head. I know that Dawkins is a deceiver and that he receives all from the Father of Lies. It is very sad. His position comes from a hatred of God, it is so obvious!

I don't understand why you think that his position that life began on a crystal (by the way he is not the only one who believes this) is the same as saying that Satan was the author of life. I am really interested in getting your insight on this.

We watched this film "No Intelligence Allowed" about two years ago.

One of the most striking things that we found in this film was the interview with one of the scientists (I don't remember which one). He claimed that once he gave up his belief in God he felt a freedom that was awesome. This, I believe, is the root of all of their issues: if they believe in God, this will restrict their lives into certain modes of behavior and thinking or else they will feel guilt. By renouncing a belief in God, they no longer have that constraint and therefore they do feel "free."

Lest we judge them too harshly, we must understand that we are not in the same condition as they are only by the grace of God. After an intense period of suffering just 4 years ago when I felt God was not answering my prayers, I almost let go of my belief in God. I could feel and taste the freedom that would bring me, but I felt the hand of God holding me tight and not letting me go there. No doubt, the prayers of my husband kept me.

We need to pity and pray for these men, not react with judgment. What a wonderful thing it would be if all of these men would receive Christ. We were quite saddened in our family when we heard Christopher HItchens state after his cancer diagnosis that he would never believe in God, and that if he ever said that he would have to be delusional. Apparently, he died in his sins. Such sorrow. It is not for not knowing the Gospel. At one of his debates, I heard him give a better explanation of the Gospel than many Christians and even pastors and evangelists give. We must pray for these souls. It is what Christ would call us to do.

Natalie,

We are seeker after Truth,and I really believe if we are seeking to
know an answer in something that we do not yet understand, then we are to continue on seeking the Truth in the matter, But if we know something is a lie,and we are to have our eyes fixed on Truth,to expose my children to the lie and to risk the chance of a seed being planted within
them,...I would just NOT go at all.....unless The Lord should direct me alone to go and speak some Truth to them,only.

Please Natalie,do not think that I am trying to be harse,...I am not,
but with all gentleness am I saying this.

Lovingly always,
elizabeth

Have your children experienced a Crises of Belief and prevailed and found God to be real for themselves??

Have your children been sheltered from the effects of sin??
or have they seen with their own eyes the end of sin, such as drug addicts displaying the reality of the demonic world through drug withdraws or an drunk wallering in their own vomit??

I personaly would encourage rather than take them to a hyped up live lecture of a well dressed highly educated confident extremely persuasive man that is going to present his anti God views extremly charismatically while ridiculing and mocking everything that you have taught your children.
Take them to the slummiest homless shelter you can find to see the end of sin, take them to the most Notorious avenue, in the closest big city that you live near, at 11:00 on a weekend night, Show them what the end of sin is.

Regardless of how well educated on the science of creation they might be, relieze the spirtual war and demonic persuasive signals that will be presented.

Just some things that I would consider if I where in this position.

If you choose to go you might want to talk to your kids about how words are used. In some cases a speaker can and will use humor and comedy to win a crowd over on a subject. Make it sound silly enough and they can prove something wrong to the crowd and the crowd will buy it.

I heard a lecture by Richard on the way home from work today. He was in a debate and he was mocking 'The Heavens declare the Glory of God' . He also mentioned the ridiculousness of sin but put it in the context of science.

simple, He's a New Ager, and teaches such. Period. What fellowship has light to do with darkness? As to me personally making my children pass through the fire.....??????I wouldn't.

I agree with elizabeth.

Children are too impressionable - they have not gone through the fire of having their minds purged and cleansed of a more older and mature person. They will hear snippets of information the devil will use at some point in the future to bring about a serious crises of faith.

Children, regardless how well educated, grounded in the truth now, can still fall at some point in the future - just do not give the devil any assistance on this matter.

God bless.

ginnyrose

No one has asked how old your children are... if they are old enough to form a constructive argument! I imagine they are being home schooled. But just know too that Richard Dawkins has most assuredly has his fair share of run-ins with home-schooled children!!

All of this doesn't matter, you are the parent. If you want to take them then by all means, take them. Even if it's a waste of time, at least everyone will know it was a colossal waste of time and laugh about it afterwards over lunch or dinner!!

God bless you, Lisa

I thank you all for all the comments and advice. I will prayerfully consider them.

First, let me assure you that I would never take them without first thoroughly preparing them. I would research what he is saying about this topic and teach my children what he is going to say and what the biblical response is BEFORE we attend the lecture.

As I said, this would not be their first exposure to Dawkins since they have seen him on the internet. It would be the first time they would see him live. I know he has a very appealing personality, but so will all sin that they encounter in the world. I know that he is IN darkness, totally deceived by his hatred of God. He is, in fact, not very logical, which is why it is so hard to believe that the whole world follows this man. It is their own hatred of God that has created this following.

My children have watched countless debates about the existence of God and evolution and creation. I understand all the concerns expressed here, which are the same ones I have. But I am training them to be in the world, although not of it, and I will not always be around to counteract these types of teachings. My thought is that I can prepare them better by facing something like this with them and then we can analyze it together. When later in their lives they encounter these types of arguments I feel they'll be better prepared.

As to the ages of my children. Those that I would plan to take are 18, 16, 14, and 11. Of course, the 11 year old would be the most impressionable so in the end if I do go I may decide to leave her at home.

it depends on the maturity level of ur kids. sum kids can handle listen 2 sum1 like him and able to take it in, discern it and handle it. sum can not. thats up 2 the parent. i do disagree with sum who think we should bury our heads in the ground and never listen to any1 who we may disagree with. we certainly dont see the disciples doing that. paul listened to the greeks and waited for his turn. becuz he listened 2 them teach he was able to take their own teachings and show them how what they were really looking for was christ. how can u do that if u never listen 2 any1? 1 of our children is taking classes at a secular college like philosophy and he luvs to come home and study the word and understand why he believes the bible and what is wrong with human reasoning and then go back and argue with his professor. we mustn't be afraid if we have the truth!

It's a good idea to consider their ages.

I am training them to be in the world, although not of it, and I will not always be around to counteract these types of teachings.

This is my perspective as well. I should not give Richard Dawkins so much power by fearing that one hour with him will offset a lifetime with their mother and me. I have made it my mission as a father to be their greatest intellectual and spiritual teacher, just for the purpose of equipping them to critically interpret the various philosophic and cultural influences presently all around them. As a result, I rather enjoy taking them to events like this.

MC

RE:///I know he has a very appealing personality, but so will all sin that they encounter in the world. I know that he is IN darkness, totally deceived by his hatred of God.///

No, I disagree there is nothing appealing about a drug addict displaying the demonic reality in the midst of withdraws, their is nothing appealing about a drunk wallering in their vomitt.

Show them what the end of sin is, show them the World, not some hyped up exalted open blasphemer.

///As to the ages of my children. Those that I would plan to take are 18, 16, 14, and 11. Of course, the 11 year old would be the most impressionable so in the end if I do go I may decide to leave her at home.///

This is completely off, an 11 year old is still under the wing of their parents thinking but the older ones are becoming of an age of questioning what they have been taught,(and they will, they are going to!) They are at an age of a Crises of belief experience,and on top of this reality they are in the midst of a recent traumatic experience, in which they have a head full of whys?? This is the exact sterotype that Dawkins is crafting his messages towards.

RE:///I should not give Richard Dawkins so much power by fearing that one hour with him will offset a lifetime with their mother and me.///

this is extremely disturbing advise!!
One hour is all Richard Dawkins wants !!, that is all he wants!! to give just the right impression.
It happens every day, just the right impression at the wrong time offsets a lifetime of good parenting. "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall"
You would give Dawkins power by taking your children into his demonic realm ! that is all the power that he wants!

RE:///I should not give Richard Dawkins so much power by fearing that one hour with him will offset a lifetime with their mother and me.///

This is such faulty logic, Compton would you take your children to a rated X movie as to not give it ///so much power by fearing that one hour watching it will offset a lifetime with their mother and you./// of course not, but yet you believe it would be a rather enjoyable event to take your children to listen to a lecture from a man that is famous because he openly blasphemes the Creator.

Compton would you take your children to a rated X movie

see, its this kind of "logic" or argument that makes christians look idiotic. listening to this atheist for an hour can hardly be compared to taking ur children to an x-rated movie. my goodness, i cant believe that was even used as a comparison.

if u want people outside the church 2 take u seriously u really need to take a course in logic or persuasive debate. we must be able to speak intelligently and intellectually and be able to articulate what we believe, not come out with mindless statements like "exposing ur children to a lecture from an atheist is like taking them to an x-rated movie".

really. i cant believe sum1 threw that card down on the table. and we wonder why hollywod and the world mocks us. its not always becuz they hate jesus. sumtimes its becuz sum christians deserve to be mocked.

Hello,

I have never understood the fascination with Richard Dawkins. I don't find him particularly interesting or even any sort of special mind. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have something intelligent to say in terms of his area of study. However, I just haven't understood why some point to him as a "revolutionary mind" when he is simply presenting the same tired argument for atheism and evolution that you hear elsewhere.

That said: I have sat in classes taught by men who I considered even greater thinkers and minds than Dawkins but who shared similar views to the ones that he proclaims. However, prior to that, I met and know our Lord -- the Creator of the Universe. As "great" as these men are supposed to be (or think that they are), they are nothing when compared to the God that I spend time with each day. These messages from mere men are no match for the truth of God's Word and the familiarity with God that we spend time with each day.

Would I take my children to hear Dawkins? I don't have any children yet, but I probably would not take young children or children to such a meeting. I certainly wouldn't take them if I didn't know that they truly had a relationship with Jesus Christ.

I think that this is extremely important. Many parents are raising children and allowing them to be subjected to things for which they are not prepared. When I say "prepared," I am not speaking solely about education. The greatest preparation for facing and interacting with the people like this (and anything else in this world) comes from truly knowing the Creator.

During my life, I only attended public schools and secular universities. I did extremely well. However, I feel that I was prepared each and every day by the fact that I met the Lord when I was a youth and knew the truth. I was never "afraid" of being "led astray" by secular professors, evolutionists or scientists. In fact, it helped to know where they were "coming from" so that I could show them where they were lacking in terms of faith in God. I even had professors who told me that they were "secure atheists" until they began conversing with me in their offices.

I suppose that the focus should always be to make the "calling and election" sure within our children. I have listened to Dawkins in the past. He shared how he was a Christian until he weighed the claims of "intelligent design" and compared them with the teaching of "evolution." At that point, he gave up his "faith" and eventually became an evangelist for atheism.

I think that the problem with Dawkins is that he never truly had "relational" faith in God. He may have "believed" in God (or assumed that God existed), but he never truly had a relationship with God. Did he have a "born again" experience? Did he spend time with God each day? Did he read the Word from cover-to-cover over and over again? If he did, no one could come and tell him that God -- the One with whom he spent time each day -- "doesn't exist." This makes all of the difference.

Dawkins was merely CONVINCED about the existence of God and then later was CONVINCED that evolution was true and that, therefore, the God of the Bible could not exist. CONVINCED is very different than FAITH. A person can be convinced of the existence of God yet still go to Hell. Faith might begin with being "convinced," but it is validated only by maintaining a relationship with Jesus Christ.

I think that this difference is why some students in public schools and universities "fall to the wayside" while others thrive in the faith. While I was attending college, I knew students who supposedly "fell away from God." Most of them didn't seem to have a strong relationship with God at all. They were saying and doing the right things because they were told that it was right rather than because they wanted to please the Lord and spent time with him each day. Yet, I knew others who seemed to have "weak faith" yet came to a relationship with God while in college. While the former began to indulge themselves in the things of the world with their new-found "freedom" (of thought and access to worldly things), the latter actually grew strong in faith. They are still walking with Him today.

We truly need believers today who know God intimately enough that their faith would never be shaken even if they were exposed to such things.

Proud papa,

I simply feel my children are prepared to process Richard Dawkins ideas. (Obviously I do not feel Dawkins is pornography. I don't know who should be more offended at your suggestion...him or myself!)

An area of training for my children Ive always felt strongly about is how to handle not just opposition and hostility, but also ambiguity. Christians seem to do much better withstanding outward hostility and opposition, but are not so prepared to handle the ambiguity they are sometimes left to face. Many of evolutions specific arguments are not explicitly addressed in scripture, (however strongly implicitly we feel they are refuted) and being able to handle this ambiguity is a burden every mature 21st century Christian will have to learn to bear.

Outright rejecting men like Richard Dawkins is not a sound strategy to me. The reason this is not a good strategy, is because all he has to do is make sense on one point and my children will start to question my own judgement. Instead, I want them to be familiar with the complexity and ambiguity of these issues, all the while being strong and conservative in their faith in the Lord Jesus, the Gospel, and scripture.

As I said earlier, I'm not advocating what other parents do with their children. I'm only explaining why I am confident I could take mine.

MC

RE:///if u want people outside the church 2 take u seriously u really need to take a course in logic or persuasive debate. we must be able to speak intelligently and intellectually and be able to articulate what we believe///

1 Corinthians 2

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

RE:////not come out with mindless statements like "exposing ur children to a lecture from an atheist is like taking them to an x-rated movie".////

A man that openly Hates and blasphemes God and whom incourages others to blaspheme God is just as Satanic and wicked and releases as much poison as any thing else on earth.

RE:// its this kind of "logic" or argument that makes christians look idiotic.

I am so sorry that such a simple question has now become an object of name-calling and judgmentalism. Can we not learn to discuss things and disagree without these attitudes? Is this not grace itself?

I think proudpapa's concern is legitimate. While he did use an extreme example to make his point, the question he asks is relevant: do we really need our children to look at sin in order to know it? Psalm 1 does tell us not to even STAND in the path of sinners. The question then becomes for me, by taking my children to this lecture, am I standing in the path of sinners, or sitting in the seat of scoffers? If the answer were that clear, I would not be asking it.

As to other things that proudpapa has said: yes it is important for children to see the result of sin. While they have not seen a drunk or someone on drug withdrawal, they have unfortunately lived in their own flesh the result of sin as a result of poor choices that their parents have made. It is the reason I have 3 prodigals.

Rest assured that these children are not CURRENTLY undergoing a crisis of faith. They are well grounded in the word, in the requirement of repentance, dying to self, and following Christ. We learned our lesson after the first three went their own way and turned against us.

There is also the thought that all they really need to know is the Word and Christ, and the Holy Spirit will protect them from the ideas of the world. After all, God does not command us to teach our children the things of the world so that they can be ready, He tells us to teach them the Law (in our case the new covenant, the Gospel) day and night, when we rise, when we sit, when we walk, when we lay down. (Deut 6:7, 11:19). He tells us to command our children to be careful to observe all the words of the law. Deut 32:46.

So the question is, do they really need to listen to the world, to their thoughts, their ideas to be ready to live in this world? That is not what scripture teaches us. It teaches us to come out from among them and NOT listen to their philosophy.

(Obviously, this can be taken too far and lead to not teaching our children math, science, etc., which is not what I mean.)

I have heard several times that Paul studied/listened to the Greeks and that we should do so also. I don't think the Book of Acts would support that. I get the impression that when he got to Athens he was shocked at what he saw there, and it grieved him. If he was so educated in their beliefs, why would he be shocked. While it is true that he quotes one of their own philosophers/poets, I always thought this is something he learned while he was there talking to the people, and the Holy Spirit used it to reach the Greeks.

On a side note, I would never let my children study philosophy. We are warned repeatedly against the wisdom of this world. (see 1 Cor 1, for example.) In fact, it was our insistence that our three oldest children become wise in the things of philosophy and in thinking and logic that turned them away from Christ. Granted, we did not also give them the true gospel, because we did not know it yet. But spending too much time in the mind will not be conducive to a Christian life because it neglects the heart, the soul, and the strength with which we are also to love the Lord our God. Philosophy (as is psychology) is the doctrine of demons. If my children are to study philosophy ever it will have to be with that understanding.

amrkelley wrote: //“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”//

I have heard him say this. It was very distressing and disgusting to me when I heard MY GOD addressed in this manner. BUT: do we have a response to him and to others who will copy him? We MUST have a response and not just sit and be appalled. We know which scriptures he will use to support this statement. Do we know them well enough to show that he is a liar?

I have heard him say this. It was very distressing and disgusting to me when I heard MY GOD addressed in this manner. BUT: do we have a response to him and to others who will copy him? We MUST have a response and not just sit and be appalled. We know which scriptures he will use to support this statement. Do we know them well enough to show that he is a liar?
_________

Do we need to? I ask because I wonder what is the point in arguing/debating with a person like this? JESUS never chased after anyone and forced them to see or hear. Did HE not also instruct the disciples to go to a place, share the good news, if it is received then praise GOD but if it is not then shake the dust from your feet and move on? I really don't know very much about the man mentioned but I have encountered those who want nothing more then to attack GOD, attack HIS children, and get attention for themselves in the process so why fight/debate with them? They don't really want an answer, they don't want to hear truth, they want to mock and drag others down with them, why be their audience?...I don't have to prove GOD to anybody, that was not the commission HE gives us right? HE said to go and share the good news and make disciples of all nations not get caught up in trying to prove a position or a point to someone. Pray for them to be sure.

As far as going I will just encourage you to look to the WORD, what does GOD say about it? Spend time in prayer what is GOD leading you to do?

I am seeking to learn to ask myself this one question in the things I do, "How will this____________(fill in the blank) cause me to grow in CHRIST and draw me nearer to HIM?" It has helped but I am still learning :)

I pray you will have clear direction and understanding as in all things I know FATHER cares about what you do and wants the very best for you.

God bless
maryjane

edit:I just wanted to add these were just some thoughts on my mind you don't need to feel like you have to answer or anything.

I think proudpapa's concern is legitimate

I agree. Hopefully everyone reads my own contribution to this discussion topic as respectful dialogue. Parenting is a sober responsibility.

Thanks everyone!

MC

maryjane said: //Do we need to? I ask because I wonder what is the point in arguing/debating with a person like this?//

I think we need to be able to answer these things, not because we need to debate with those who are like Richard Dawkins, who do not want to hear and be convinced. We need to know how to answer these things because there are others who are listening, often young people, who do not know where to stand. If such statements are left unchallenged these will simply assume that they are true and will therefore also embrace them.

In short, we must answer this for the sake of those who really doubt and need an answer.

Thank you MaryJane for your thoughts.

i would like to clarify that i did not say that we need to study other schools of thought or philosophies. however for sum christians they might do it so as to understand and be able to discuss and witness to unbelievers who are into that type of thing.

as 2 the scripture that proudpapa pasted concerning paul not coming with articulate speech, all one has 2 do is read romans or ephesians to understand that paul had extremely articulate speech. yes, his words were inspired by the holy spirit, but we all know that the holy spirit used the language and speech patterns of the writers of the bible. paul was extremely well educated, this is a fact. when we come off 2 the world as uneducated, stupid, ignorant or hillbilly-ish it only serves to strengthen the stereotypes that the world has of christians.

if we are mocked because we are stupid, or at least sound stupid and can not put together a sound argument for what we believe then we are not mocked becuz of christ, but becuz we are stupid. and that brings reproach upon the name of christ. christians ought 2 be well spoken and able 2 hold a conversation. we ought not 2 sound like a bumbling redneck.

thats all i was saying. as usual someone took what i said and embellished it and came up with sumthing different.

and yes, i dont capitalize my words on here and sumtimes use "texting" spelling, but trust me, i can articulate and write quite well. :-)

______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"However, I also think it might be a complete waste of time."
______________________________________________________________

Natalie, I see within this quote a doubt to do something that you desire. You perceive a benefit but doubt raises its head.

Many times in life I went ahead and did something I wanted to but also doubted the wisdom of it. When I did so, I regretted it later. I believe God plants those doubts in our mind to safeguard us from whatever danger is out there that works to destroy us.

Just thought I would share this...

God bless.

ginnyrose

SkepticGuy wrote ///as 2 the scripture that proudpapa pasted concerning paul not coming with articulate speech, all one has 2 do is read romans or ephesians to understand that paul had extremely articulate speech. yes, his words were inspired by the holy spirit, but we all know that the holy spirit used the language and speech patterns of the writers of the bible. paul was extremely well educated///

This is true Paul was very well educated and did have to humble himself as to allow not his worldly wisdom to be what he used to convince others of the truth, He allowed the Spirit of God working through him to do the work.

But Paul was one of the Few that God chose that was well Educated as he writes

1 Corinthians ch 1

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Peter and John
Acts 4:13
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

RE: ///this is a fact. when we come off 2 the world as uneducated, stupid, ignorant or hillbilly-ish it only serves to strengthen the stereotypes that the world has of christians.///

1 Corinthians ch 1
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

RE: ///if we are mocked because we are stupid, or at least sound stupid and can not put together a sound argument for what we believe then we are not mocked becuz of christ, but becuz we are stupid. and that brings reproach upon the name of christ. christians ought 2 be well spoken and able 2 hold a conversation. we ought not 2 sound like a bumbling redneck.///

?

RE:///thats all i was saying. as usual someone took what i said and embellished it and came up with sumthing different.///

?

RE:///and yes, i dont capitalize my words on here and sumtimes use "texting" spelling, but trust me, i can articulate and write quite well. :-)///

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

ginnyrose wrote ////by ginnyrose on 2013/2/25 15:41:47

______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"However, I also think it might be a complete waste of time."
______________________________________________________________

Natalie, I see within this quote a doubt to do something that you desire. You perceive a benefit but doubt raises its head.

Many times in life I went ahead and did something I wanted to but also doubted the wisdom of it. When I did so, I regretted it later. I believe God plants those doubts in our mind to safeguard us from whatever danger is out there that works to destroy us.

Just thought I would share this...

God bless.

ginnyrose////

This is the Best advise yet on this thread!!

Once again very well said ginnyrose!

A scripture that came to mind while I have been meditating on this

2 John 1
7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

We often think of this as applying to heratics within our fellowship.
But this is a lecture in which Dawkins will probably
be presented as the teacher and the audience as the students, I personally feel that we would be opening ourselves and our families up to a spirtual attack if we willingly biddeth him God speed in such a way.

This is just my personal conviction, it is not my job to dictate over others conscience but I do feel that we are called to express our convictions and articulate in the best way that God will allow us to, why we hold to the conviction that we do.

ginnyrose wrote: //Natalie, I see within this quote a doubt to do something that you desire. You perceive a benefit but doubt raises its head.

Many times in life I went ahead and did something I wanted to but also doubted the wisdom of it. When I did so, I regretted it later. I believe God plants those doubts in our mind to safeguard us from whatever danger is out there that works to destroy us.//

Thank you for this thought. I believe that you are right. After my own exposition above, about how we are only commanded to teach the Word to our children, I don't think that this is something I need to take my children to. A thought keeps coming to my mind, though: "But they may be missing such a great opportunity." After what you said, I am more convinced that this is my thought and not the Lord's and that I should ignore it.

I can see all points of view here and I agree with all of the points of view expressed.

That sounds good romanchog. I think you've made a great call.

Tonight my heart is warmed by the sincere care and interest people in this thread have shown towards this question.

Blessings everyone,

MC

Quote: "The Science of Beauty and the Beauty of Science."

The beauty behind Science is God and the Beauty of Science is God.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. Rom 1: 20-23

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Some Christians feel the same way; they are just too afraid to admit it.

I agree with Romanchog that it is not enough to be merely appalled by this statement. We must be prepared to explain why this is not true(if not to others, then at least to ourselves), and it may not be as easy as it sounds.

The FBI teaches their agents how to spot counterfeit dollars by studying the real currency. Than when they come across the counterfeit its a nature process of discovery. I am very careful what ministers as well as public speakers I'll even listen to because to undo 1 little piece of information....or mis-information can take weeks, sometimes even years...This I have experienced first hand.

Now I take a different position when presenting the Lord Jesus, I never defend God's actions to the un-saved or un-believing, it is just a plain waist of time.I will however pick the battlefield upon which I will plant small packets of information about the witness of Jesus Christ. The trouble in many public form style speaking venues is that there is never any true 2 way exchange and therefore the setting is always going to be pretty one sided. To tackle and deconstruct the speakers arguments hours or even days later is really a waist of time, unless of course you or your children are required to attend in order to receive a grade or credit for some course, than it's unavoidable and proper precautions will need to be in place and implemented.

This has been not only an interesting topic but also one that has been enjoyable to follow as it progressed.

And then you get into the issue of public debates between people who defend some aspects of the WORD vs humanism. Who benefits? Since God allows it, I suspect someone might, however...

Allow me to take a trip down memory lane...

My memory goes back a long time ago when Rev. Bob Harrington used to debate the late Madelyn Murray O'Hare, a well-known atheist. She never repented, that we know of - she died under mysterious circumstances. It became a sport to hear these debates. Then there was one between Faye Wattleton, head of Planned Parenthood, and Randall Terry, a pro-life activist. In it Faye was as cool as a cucumber, Terry was like a pesky fly on this cuke...

Who benefited? God only knows. But what happened to the 'Christian' debaters? Harrington ended up divorcing his wife, marrying his secretary and now works in the motivational field - sad for a flamboyant Southern Baptist evangelist. (I have personally heard Harrington preach many times - he preached here in our town and the one west of us. As youth we loved to go listen to him!) I have heard Bob 'preach' since he embraced a motivational message and am left feeling very sad, so tragic.

And Randall Terry? He came under church discipline because of his infidelity, but others ignored his 'indiscretion' and supported him still. He divorced his wife, married another and is still active in the pro-life movement. ("Christianity Today" reported on this situation.) Who is being honored?

As I look these situations from this vantage point of many years later, I am wondering at the spiritual cost to the Christian. It appears to have opened the door to sin and since these 'Christian' debaters were famous personalities they considered themselves above disciplinary actions by their church...

Or, is the issue that of using the devil's methods to promote Biblical issues? Debate is called a sin in Romans 1:29: "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers".

I remember well these debates just mentioned and am still troubled after all these years...so sad.