The new doctrine of Reckoning yourself dead to sin

I've been hearing recently both in our church or on posts in Sermon Index that the way to overcome our sin is just by merely reckoning ourselves dead to it.
For me that seems to be doing away with true repentance.
If our persistent sins could be 'reckoned' away then the Scripture that follows that verse would not have to say. 'Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body'. This passage is in Romans 6 v 11 onwards.

The doctrine of being changed by faith alone without the need of repenting seems like it's taking a new form. That of just 'reckoning'.

I hope this doesn't take away from the incredible change that can occur in a believers life by the power of the spirit as we believe and follow Him. I've experienced change this way as well as many many people. But persistent sin which draws us away from the Lord has to be put to death.
It could end up leading you away from Christ.

What is reckoning ? Is it an action ? It can be, if so than is it repentance? It can be, because true repentance is turning away. True repentance can sometimes be confession and prayer but are more often a literal turning away from sin(an action word) and going the opposite direction in a very literal sense. You can fill in the details of what is sin and how reckoning yourself dead could be an action taken at a specific point in time.

by dohzman on 2013/3/1 3:24:05

What is reckoning ? Is it an action ? It can be, if so than is it repentance? It can be, because true repentance is turning away. True repentance can sometimes be confession and prayer but are more often a literal turning away from sin(an action word) and going the opposite direction in a very literal sense. You can fill in the details of what is sin and how reckoning yourself dead could be an action taken at a specific point in time.

____________

That is interesting. I have always thought that reckon ourselves dead to sin was the action of repenting or at least the part of turning away from sin once it is repented of. I always thought of repentance as both the verbal speaking to the LORD concerning our sin then followed by the action of turning away from the sin?

God bless
mj

I like your words about reckoning Apollos. How that reckoning is believing we have been set free in reality from sins power.

There is no sacrifice involved in just 'reckoning' alone. But the losing of our lives through repentance is so much more beneficial. I believe the act of true repentance holds us prisoner to God. Not in a bad way but we experience his closeness so much more.

And we are free to be Christs servant to follow him without hindrances.

Quote

"To gaze upon sin is to empower sin and bring condemnation"

I would like to just coment on this quote from brother Frank.

This statment has been used often to rush someone through the process of conviction.
How often have I found even here on this forum someone who is under conviction of some beseting sin to be soon swarmed by posters advising such to quit gazing at his sin but look to Jesus.

While in true repentance we see exactly the opposite.
For example, in times of revival when the Spirit of God is poured the precess of conviction can go on for a very long time.
It took Nathan Cole upon hearing George Whitefield two years to come to a saving faith in Christ, the devil trying at times to give him false comfort only to discover soon after that he was not yet saved.
It took Mary Peckham in the Lewis revival three month under agony of thinking that she was not of the elect before Christ was revealed to her soul.
A story that was told of the Hebrides revival with Duncan Champbel that a woman came to him urging him to come and see her husband who was under sever conviction to the point that she was fearful for his life. When the preacher came and heared the man groaning under sin asking God to have mercy on his soul he advised the wife to leave him alone and not give him any comfort until the Spirit of God finishes the work and impart comfort from above lest the work be cut short.

Now, you must know that during revivals time speeds up tremendously that what take years in time when the Spirit is absent normaly takes hours when He is poured.
Given this fact we should be the more aware of the danger of speeding someone through the process of conviction.

Have we not seen enough cases of sinners coming to us asking for comfort and relief and we told them to gaze upon Christ and not listen to the voice of the accuser ( ignorantly assuming that whoever if causing them to feel conviction of sin must be the accuser of course, who else would it be ) only to find them coming back under the same conviction unable to obtain relief until the Spirit imparts it.
And yet when they do obtain relief from God Himself, no man nor demon can take that away.

This is almost unheard of in this age of easy believism.

Please heed the voice of the old saints who knew and experienced first hand what it is to be under the devil's accusations and then obtain comfort from God Himself.

Heed the voice of John Bunyan in the introduction to his " Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners" for only such a sinner can speak of the true grace of God.

Here is Bunyan:
"It is written in the Scripture (Isa 38:19), “The father to the children shall make known the truth of God.” Yea, it was for this reason I lay so long at Sinai (Deut 4:10,11), to see the fire, and the cloud, and the darkness,
that I might fear the Lord all the days of my life upon earth, and tell of his wondrous works to my children (Psa 78:3-5).Moses (Num 33:1,2) writ of the journeyings of the children of Israel, from Egypt to the land of Canaan; and commanded also, that they did remember their forty years’ travel in the wilderness. “Thou shalt remember all the way
which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his
commandments, or no” (Deut 8:2). Wherefore this I have endeavoured to do; and not only so, but to publish it also; that, if God will, others may be put in remembrance of what he hath done for their souls, by reading his work upon me.
It is profitable for Christians to be often calling to mind the very beginnings of grace with their souls. “It is a night to be much observed unto the Lord for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the
Lord to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations” (Exo 12:42). “O my God,” saith David (Psa 42:6), “my soul is cast down within me; therefore will I remember thee from the land of Jordan, and of the Hermonites, from the hill Mizar.” He remembered also the lion and the bear, when he
went to fight with the giant of Gath (1 Sam 17:36,37).
It was Paul’s accustomed manner (Acts 22), and that when tried for his life (Acts 24), even to open, before his judges, the manner of his conversion: he would think of that day, and that hour, in the which he first did meet with grace;4 for he found it support unto him. When
God had brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea, far into the wilderness, yet they must turn quite about thither again, to remember the drowning of their enemies there (Num 14:25). For though they sang his praise
before, yet “they soon forgat his works” (Psa
106:11-13). In this discourse of mine you may see much;
much, I say, of the grace of God towards me. I thank God I can count it much, for it was above my sins and Satan’s temptations too. I can remember my fears, and doubts, and sad months with comfort; they are as the head of Goliath in my hand. There was nothing to David like Goliath’s sword, even that sword that should have been sheathed in his bowels; for the very sight and remembrance of that did
preach forth God’s deliverance to him. Oh, the remembrance of my great sins, of my great temptations, and of my great fears of perishing for ever! They bring afresh into my mind the remembrance of my great help, my great support from heaven, and that the great grace that God extended to such a wretch as I. My dear children, call to mind the former days, “and the years of ancient times: remember
also your songs in the night; and commune with your own heart” (Psa 73:5-12). Yea, look diligently, and leave no corner therein unsearched, for there is treasure hid, even the treasure of your first and second experience of the grace of God toward you. Remember, I say, the word that first laid hold upon you; remember your terrors of conscience, and fear of death and hell; remember also your tears and prayers to God; yea, how you sighed under
every hedge for mercy. Have you never a hill Mizar to remember? Have you forgot the close, the milk house, the stable, the barn, and the like, where God did visit your soul?"

John Bunyan.

One enters the faith through repentance and baptism, which essentially is dying to one's self. Just, think about the life of the apostle Paul.

I wonder if there is really another way. But don't be overwhelmed by symbolism though.

The visible things we see in a person while undergoing the state of repentance, especially before conversion is affected by the prevailing theology at that time. But it is really the Lord that brings repentance and conversion. If the Lord wills that we do it this way or that then let it be.

He know us even before the foundation of this planet, even before we were born.

I agree with the poster. I used to see the same spirit in certain posters here as I do not see such spirit in my Church. One of the strong advocate of such theology in SI died recently. He also did not believe in Repentance. No matter how many scriptural proof you give him. Once I found out that there is no respect for scripture in a person who calls himself Christian then I stop discussing theology with them. Because what they have is imagination and not theology.

Counting one self dead to Sin is way higher standard than living a life of continuous repentance. To be dead to sin means to be dead in flesh and not to entertain the desires of Flesh. A dead man never gets puffed up no matter how much you appreciate him in his funeral. Also a dead man never gets angry at his brother no matter what his brother does to him in his funeral or says about him in his funeral. If one satisfies these requirements of being a dead man while being alive in Flesh then he is counted as dead to Sin in flesh.

Jesus lived like that and that is why he was able to say, 'anything said against the son of man will be forgiven'. People called him devil but he did not get angry. Evil Spirits called him Son of God, he did not get puffed up. True sign of being dead to Sin.

Brother Frank,

I am sorry if i took what you said out of context. It was not my intent.

However, the point is this, be it for an unbeliever or a believer, when under conviction of sin, one must deal with it directly, and immediatly as you have said, but one also aught not go to anyone but God to recieve relief, and sometimes God will not grant the relief right away in order to show the seriousness of considering the blood by which the believer was sanctified an unclean thing and mingling with sin .
these cliches that people use such as look to Christ or deciding it is the devil and not the Spirit can cause much harm and give false comfort.

we can say " Look to Christ" until our eyes pop out but until Christ himself reveals Himself, any other comfort obtained is false, and sends people to hell.

Fully agree with Sree.

You turn to God (repentance) and by faith you believe in Jesus Christ, but as you continue on you’ll soon find out that you’re still prone to sin.

If you bring it up for discussion the sin that remains in a Christian your told “reckon yourselves dead to sin” which in essence is believe that you br dead to sin, but isn’t this just another form of easy believism? We must be careful to distinguish lazy "acceptance" from the real work of God.

The fact is that your our lives are a lives that are living unto holiness, if we are honest our lives are tainted with self, sin and defeat.

So as a Christian the Spirit leads you to a deeper place where the light of God focuses on the sin that dwells deep within you. The sin within is too much a part of our natures to come to our own attention, the truth is that sin within you will deceives you to get you to believe it’s you that wants to sin and will seek to keep you in bondage and condemnation BUT IT’S NOT YOU IT SIN. God can, does and will reveal to your condition and he can set you free, just ask him get before him fast and pray the answer will soon come..

When he answers we must turn to God in repentance, seeing our true condition when he reveals it to you and cry out to him as we confess, forsake, and refuse to accept the sin and selfish life and reckon it crucified. We must insist he does the work and not rest content with an easy doctrine of self-crucifixion by reckoning alone.

Perhaps some input from Watchman Nee's The Normal Christian Life will be helpful; below is a snipet from chapter 4 titled The Path of Progress:Reckoning. I would suggest reading the entire book if you have not done so but particularly the four chapters covering the Path of Progress: Knowing, Reckoning, Walking in the Spirit, and Bearing the Cross.

We now come to a matter on which there has been some confusion of thought among the Lord’s children. It concerns what follows this knowledge. Note again first of all the wording of Romans 6:6: “Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him”. The tense of the verb is most precious for it puts the event right back there in the past. It is final, once-for-all. The thing has been done and cannot be undone. Our old man has been crucified once and for ever, and he can never be un-crucified. This is what we need to know.
Then, when we know this, what follows? Look again at our passage. The next command is in verse 11: “Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin”. This, clearly, is the natural sequel to verse 6. Read them together: ‘Knowing that our old man was crucified, ... reckon ye yourselves to be dead’. That is the order. When we know that our old man has been crucified with Christ, then the next step is to reckon it so.
Unfortunately, in presenting the truth of our union with Christ the emphasis has too often been placed upon this second matter of reckoning ourselves to be dead, as though that were the starting point, whereas it should rather be upon knowing ourselves to be dead. God’s Word makes it clear that ‘knowing’ is to precede ‘reckoning’. “Knowing this... reckon.” The sequence is most important. Our reckoning must be based on knowledge of divinely revealed fact, for otherwise faith has no foundation on which to rest. When we know, then we reckon spontaneously.

Brother bear,
Were you addressing your post to me.
I am not sure what you understand by the slough of despond, brother, but it is definitly something different from what Bunyan meant by it which is wondering out od the way and falling into some sin or unbelief.

Anyone who has spiritual expeience at all knows the difference between unbelief and conviction of sin. while the first is lack of faith that can be due to pride of trusting in one' own righteousness, the other is something the Lord allows in order to reveal the darkness and vileness of sin in order that Christ shines the brightest, and faith graps hold of Him. It is the breaking of self that ushers Christ in, the going down that must take place before one comes up.

In the stories you gave about belief without conviction, while I do not understand all the ways of God, there are things revealed to us in the Scriptures by which we may be able to descern how some of these things work.

Now, you say you read or hear the Bible all the time, let me ask you this.
Why was it so easy for the gentile, sinners to come to Christ more than the high rank social elite?

davidkeel:

In the first few verses of Hebrews 10, we find that the perfect sacrifice for sin, the blood of Christ, did what the blood of bulls and goats could never do. That was to actually purge our sins. And the writer makes a very vivid statement. He says that the worshippers, once purged, should have no more conscience of sins. The sins are not simply covered, but they are gone. Paul says something very similar in Romans 6. He says that we are dead to sin. And, just like Christ died once and now lives unto God, we should also reckon that we died to sin once and now live unto God. Paul talks extensively about the fact that we are now considered righteous through the blood of Christ.

So, I know that my sin has been dealt with, that I am forgiven, and what is more, I have been made the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor. 5). I have an awareness that I am no longer in sin. I am dead to sin. And how could I, who am righteous, who am dead to sin, live any longer therein. In fact, there are times when I am tempted that I have the thought, "Why would I do that? I am righteous. Does a righteous man do that? I am dead to that."

That in no way negates or does away with repentance. To repent means, literally, to turn and go the other way. It is a turning from sin. I realize that I have often had sorrow over sin, and that sorrow led me to cry out to God for forgiveness, and then to turn from the thing that I did. But the realization of my sin (enlightenment and conviction), and the sorrow for my sin (which is sometimes, not always, rooted more in emotion than in anything else)are neither one repentance. It is the turning from sin that is repentance. So considering myself dead to sin actually helps to bring about repentance in my life.

There have been times when I sinned, was convicted of it, and had great emotional grief over the sin. There have been times when I sinned, and upon realizing that I had done so simply said, "God, that was sin. I thank You that You have forgiven me, and I receive Your forgiveness, and I choose to turn from that thing. I repent." There was great emotion the first time, there was no emotion the second. Yet, in both cases there was a Godly sorrow that was unto repentance.

I find that my realization of righteousness and of the fact that I am dead to sin (My "dead reckoning" if you will) is the very thing that gives me power over sin. I am recalling the scripture in Titus that says that it is the grace of God that teaches us to deny unGodly lusts so that we might live soberly and righteously in this present world.

By the way, reckoning is not trying to gin up something that is not true. It is an accounting of something that you actually possess.

I might add as well that there is a distinction to be made between salvation and the walk of a believer in my opinion. I too am very concerned when we simply have sinners repeat words and then assure them that their ticket is punched and all is well. We know that no one comes to the Father except he be called. Without the enlightenment of a sinful condition and of God's grace, and without a conviction of sin, it is impossible to come to God. So I think there are times when an unbeliever can repeat a prayer and not be born again.

But, I think, if I am not mistaken, that the context of the discussion is post-salvation. In that case, sins are dealt with and we have been born again. In that case our reckoning is the realization of something that is already reality.

Counting one self dead to Sin is way higher standard than living a life of continuous repentance. To be dead to sin means to be dead in flesh and not to entertain the desires of Flesh. A dead man never gets puffed up no matter how much you appreciate him in his funeral. Also a dead man never gets angry at his brother no matter what his brother does to him in his funeral or says about him in his funeral. If one satisfies these requirements of being a dead man while being alive in Flesh then he is counted as dead to Sin in flesh.

Jesus lived like that and that is why he was able to say, 'anything said against the son of man will be forgiven'. People called him devil but he did not get angry. Evil Spirits called him Son of God, he did not get puffed up. True sign of being dead to Sin.

I am quoting my own post here. I want to add that I have frankly not reached the stage of saying that I am totally dead to sin. But I am taking sincere effort by God's grace to count myself dead to sin following the example of Jesus.

I felt the need to say this because I do not want to give an impression that I have achieved that stage.

Quote: I am quoting my own post here. I want to add that I have frankly not reached the stage of saying that I am totally dead to sin.

Thank you for your honesty

To all……..

There’s a big difference between having your sins forgiven which is wonderful and being dead to sin.

For instance, you sin and then confess and you know full well that during the next week or so you’ll would commit the same sins that you had already confessed.

That’s just a form of religion, that’s not the message of the gospel because God not only deals with the past he wants to deal with the sin in you…

Ok Frank,

How then do you perceive Isiah 6, and the heavy conviction the prophet was under. Was he not a prophet in Isiah 1" The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth!
For the Lord has spoken:"

Could he not just look to God or recken himself dead and get it over with.
Exactly where do revivals take place, in the church or in the world.

I am very concerned regarding this issue as you can see because I feel that an improper understanding of this area of conviction can make or break a prayer meeting such as the one we have.

Also I would like to speak with you on the phone. Blaine has my number.

Obvoiusly there is serious confusion but not on my part.
What is so common in christendom and in that I include the churches I attend that I know to be dead but also intimate groupes of believers that I know to be saved such as our prayer group. There seem to be a spirit of rushing things under that guise of looking to Christ as if any lingering and thorough searching of the heart is forbidden.

I understand that corporate prayer is not the place for that heart search but what if God chooses it to be so and brought conviction right there on the spot.

edit-
I will make this final point and then have to leave.
This" looking to Christ" or "reckening one'self dead" as many here have said is something given by God. It can not be just done. With one person relief may come within a moment, with another it may take a very long time.
If we truly believe what we confess to believe, we will never urge a speedy process of conviction. When I read the menotonous diaries of the saints of old, I can see a serious departure from God truth. We may still hold to the same vocabularies they used, but the difference is vast..

I have enjoyed the interaction here, the reading has been good, it kinda opened up a bit of a fire storm though. I want to comment here that we can not of ourselves reckon our selves dead per se' any more than we can repent, anymore than we can make ourselves alive to Christ and dead to sin any more...any more..fill in the blank. All those things are really the job of the Holy Spirit Who lives in us...but what we can do is things like yield or even follow, it really is as simple as looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, and honestly there is nothing done that's done without faith that's accepted by God, for without faith it's impossible to please God.The big question we all must answer personally is what is the man-ward side and the God ward side in this walk, where does my responsibility start and stop and where does God's responsibility start and stop...that is really what I hear being asked here or alluded to. And I don't think there's a true formula here....but this I do know, Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. I hold onto that because I love easy to understand truths and the Lord always simplifies things for my understanding. I see salvation , repentance, reckoning,etc...much like I see worship, that it is all in-compassing it is all of life, that we live all of our moments with a God subconsciousness and keep our eye fixed on Jesus, than just let Him work out the details. I hope no one was thinking that by reckoning I was using it to replace repentance or that I believe repentance isn't a part of the reckoning process. I have just learned that much of what I try to do in my own strength is best left to the Holy Spirit.

I have enjoyed what you have said Apollos.

Hey bear, I happen to have a few moments
Since I did not get any emails from you yet. I will answer my own question.

Why did the gentile sinners embrace Christ while the phirasees did not?
or why do people in muslim nations embrace Christ while people in America do not?

Same answer to both question.
God must bring brokenness before someone embraces Christ or appreciate the grace offered to them.

This brokeness can be wrought by going under strong conviction of sin as in revivals or through the school master in whatever form that may be.
A leper who had to stay outside the gate or run in the streets crying "unclean, unclean" has gone through the preparation process of brokeness.
The harlots, sinners, outcast, and despised are all in this category.
The school master can be someone's upbringging in a sinful enviroment. or someone with physical infirmity, Zaccheus may have fallen under this category.
the severity of the law can be the school master under which category Paul or a muslim terrorist may fall.
Or just having a terror filled encounter with God may be the factor that brings brokenness.

Whatever the case, brokeness must be wrought before someone can appreciate salvation.

I have included a quote from "The Korean penticost and the suffering that followed" that may answer your question as to why people in muslim nations, India, Korea, and third world countries are flocking to Christ.
Yes they have an encounter with Christ but they must be brought low before they can embrace Him.

Hope you enjoy the read.

The title is: " Korea's preparation for the gospel"

"Now we come to a special instance of God's providence. Buddhism is dead in Korea. Go to China and you will find the temples in good repair, go to Japan and in every village you will find the temples flourishing, their roofs looming high above the houses. You will hear the tinkle, tinkle of the bells and see the multitudes pressing through the gates and bowing down before tablets of wood and idols of stone, just as blind as ever. In Korea it is not so. The temples are there, but they are falling and in ruins. There are holes in the tiled roofs where the bats make their homes. where the rainy season Hoods come through and rot the
wooden pillars. The people despise the few shaven-headed priests who remain. The fact is, Confucianism killed Buddhism in Korea. After the first enthusiasm had passed away and the Buddhist Church bad become rich and powerful. the priests grew corrupt and arrogant. Their lazy, immoral Jives disgusted the Korean people. schooled as they we’re in the high ethics of Confucius, and when the Buddhist hierarchy sought to interfere with the affairs of state, the government itself turned upon Buddhism and gave it its death blow. Most of the temple lands were taken away and the priests forbidden to enter the capital city. Today they point a finger of scorn at a Buddhist priest. calling him a 'nom.' a 'low down scoundrel.' So we find a remarkable state of things in Korea. A people by nature intensely religious without any entrenched religion with priests able to hinder the progress of Christianity. Confucianism. considered apart from ancestral worship. which has been added on, is not a religion. It is the far eastern world's system of morals, the school-master, if you please, that is today leading Korea to the feet of Christ. One other condition that must be noticed in any consideration of the remarkable progress of the gospel in Korea in the 20th century is her preparation of suffering and humiliation. The location of Korea creates difficulties. Lying midway between China and Japan she has been for thousands of years a bone of contention between these two nations. both claiming suzerainty over her. First China would demand and compel tribute. then Japan would pour her warriors across the channel and punish the Koreans for yielding to China. When these two nations have had a quarrel with Korea they have usually been at war with each other and have fought out their quarrels on the long suffering soil of Korea until the land bas run with blood again and again. As a consequence the people, unable to resist the hordes that came upon them, built cities of refuge high in the mountains, where they might flee when one by one their walled cities fell before the ruthless invaders. It is a mistake to suppose that the Korean people are a cowardly people. Their history is replete with records of heroism and desperate bravery in defense of home and country. They have simply been overpowered. The marvel is that in spite of all they have suffered, they remain unbroken and an integral people with one language and one blood, numbering today fully thirteen million. No wonder Korea is poor. Not only has she been continually devastated by war, but her own government has often been worthless and rotten. For centuries her kings 'farmed out' the rule to magistrates and governors who paid many times their salary for the office, and then
squeezed back the amount and many times more from the people by unjust methods. It has been as much as a man's life was worth for it to become known that he had accumulated anything, unless he had powerful friends to protect him. If the robbers neglected to come down from the mountains and take it away. the robber magistrate would send out his 'runners,' arrest a man on some trumped-up charge. throw him into prison and beat him till he would be glad to pay all that he had for his life. Recently the greatest misfortune of all. at least in Korean eyes, befell their country. After the Russo-Japanese war of 1904, the Japanese withdrew a large part of their Victorious army from Manchuria back into Korea. Japanese soldiers were posted in every city and hamlet. The few Korean troops were forcibly disbanded and the common
people compelled to give up their guns. Even the old flint-lock guns that the mountaineers used for tiger hunting were collected and burned in heaps, where I have seen the mass of their tangled barrels lying. A treaty was secured from the Korean government giving Japan absolute control of Korea's foreign affairs and virtual control of the internal administration. It is easy enough for an outsider to look on and philosophically remark that it was inevitable that either Russia or Japan must prevail, and better Japan than Russia. It is not so easy for the sufferer to see God's hand in the malady. I have no political purpose in writing this narrative and am merely trying to show conditions and how these conditions have conspired in God's providence to work out salvation for Korea. The simple truth is that the Koreans are a broken-hearted people. Corrupt and unworthy as their old government was, nevertheless they loved it, and all the more, no doubt, in proportion as it seems to be taken away from them. It is pitiable to see them grieve, to see strong men weep over national loss. They come to us and say, 'Is there any country so poor, so unfortunate as ours?' But it means much that their eyes are open. Formerly they were proud and arrogant; they were 'wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,' and knew it not. Now, with respect to this world, at least, they know just where they stand. They know they are despised and rejected. The arrow had entered Korea's soul. Her spirit was broken. For years now she has been sitting in the dust, mourning not only her present misfortunes, but her past sins. Over just such a stricken people has God so often stretched out His hands in blessing. By brokenness of spirit Korea has been prepared for the Gospel, and when a further work of God's Spirit was manifested the Scripture was again fulfilled: 'The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.'"

Brother Frank,

when you said "To gaze upon sin is to empower sin and bring condemnation"

I took that to mean rushing someone through the conviction process.
Afterall, if someone has not yet recieved comfort from the Spirit, what else are they able to do but to gaze upon sin, to see it depth and hight, eternal consequences and vile nature. It may be God's will for them to gaze upon it for a while before they are granted forgivness.
It just happen to be that these are the ones that appreciate their salvation most.

It took Jean 48 hours to give birth to her first child but the second one came easy. For some reason she just cherishes that first one just a tiny bit more. It is the child not the birth pangs she cheriches, but she cherishes him because he was brought forth through much pain.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=10853

in this cd the deacon was most likely saved. When God asked him to call the judge, could he have looked to Christ before he made things right. was he able to claim Christ righteousness and ignore God command to obey.

Why, he even quoted the Scriptures to God. He said: " God, you said if we confess our sins you would take them away as far as the east is from the west" He claimed God promises but to no avail.

Whatever the case, brokeness must be wrought before someone can appreciate salvation.

I agree with you. I believe in the same. I came to Christ being a Hindu for first 25 years of my life. I was convinced that the Hindu God I choose to worship is a form of God. But deep inside me I had a very strong conviction of my Sins. I thought my good works will balance my evil. I knew that I was way behind the standard of God in my life. When I started reading the Gospels after hearing about Christ. I immediately understood the life that God wanted me to live. I accepted Jesus as a savior so that my past sins committed during my time of my lack of knowledge of God's ways will be forgiven. I then embraced this wonderful life that Jesus thought us to live but after 2 years of trying I finally came to conclusion that I can no longer live this life. In that brokenness I encountered the real Jesus who became Lord of my life. I was filled with his spirit. The Bible which was till then only book of Knowledge became a book of life to me. Jesus became a reality in my life.

God is light there is no darkness in him. Anyone who says he has seen the light but still lives in darkness, unable to differentiate light and darkness is a liar. He has actually not seen the light. Same way anyone who says he had an encounter with Jesus but never got convicted of his darkness (sins) has not seen Jesus.

A lot of good disscussion,
I have been at work all day and will be working all day tomorrow, I hope this thread is still around when I get more time, because I would like to share some on how this topic was absoulutly essential in my life for relience on Gods power rather than my own strength in defeating habitual sin.
Repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, always turns one away from sin.

" Cheap Grace! "
No brother, I am not accusing you of that. I have read your posts here and on your blog, listened to your prayers, heard you life, conversion story to know better.

Sorry if I have offended you Frank.
Yes, let us leave it at that.
God bless

Wow Sister Sree, What a testimony.
I love to hear the testimonies of converts from different backgrounds. what an encouragemnet.

Blessings to all.

Wow Sister Sree, What a testimony.
I love to hear the testimonies of converts from different backgrounds. what an encouragemnet.

thank you. By the way I am a brother in Christ.