Warren’s Ecumenical Call to Fast, Pray for Cardinals Seeking New Pope Called ‘Real Tragedy’

Saints, there is a great whore church coming, and we have seen it unfolding now for quite some time. The storm of persecution that is heading towards the Body of Christ will culminate at the culmination of the great whore church, undoubtedly led by Catholicism. For century after century, the Catholic church, in a demonic alignment with the state, hunted down and tortured and killed our brothers and sisters, and believed themselves to be doing the work of God in the process. There is no doubt in my mind that much of evangelicalism will be swallowed up into the coming whore church. Back in the 90s we saw that evangelical leaders signed a pact where they agreed not to shares the Gospel with Catholics. Can you imagine, a pact not to share the Gospel with a sixth of the planet? Gods work? You decide. The writer of the article Oracio posted is an ex-Catholic, as am I and there are quite a few on SI...........bro Frank

Hi sister MJ. I wonder if you and your husband are on Facebook? I am reaching out right now to an old Catholic school friend. It would be good to have some more " ex Catholics ," share with him as well. Perhaps also it may be helpful to you in how to share with your mother. If you guys are not on FB, e-mail me and I will copy and paste my interactions with him. I love Catholics, I really do. So many are caught up in the sheer ignorance of it all but are open to some decent questions. I do believe, that when push comes to shove, our family members would give us up thinking that it may help us. I know in the wider family circle of mine, there has always been a deep resentment towards my mother and father and I becoming Christians. My grandmother, who was quite old at the time, almost gave her heart to the Lord. She was in quite an agony of conviction and was in a desperate battle with her Catholicism. She was a Scotch/Irish Catholic who went to Chapel 7 days a week when she could. Long story short, my aunt had her committed and brought the priest in. The battle was lost. She later died in her sins. Its a shocking but true story. Undoubtedly my aunt believed she was doing God's work...........bro Frank

It is always amazing to me how many times this is said here on SI WITHOUT also saying that the Protestant Church has ALSO done the SAME thing. If you are going to cite the past murders of the Catholic Church to condemn them TODAY, you must also cite the past murders of the Protestant church and condemn it today or you will be guilty of hypocrisy.

Well murder is murder no matter by whom or when. The idea however, of somehow holding Roman Catholics today responsible for the sins of previous generations is probably a little misleading. The reality is much darker than that and has to do with what is possible when those who believe they are serving God decide or else are encouraged to hate others who are said to be enemies of truth. How one falls down on that argument will be a matter of whether we ourselves as individuals are being led and whether we will have the courage to stand as well as to resists deception. The reality however, of the genocide of millions of men and women, both Jews and Gentiles by Rome in Central Europe over a period of 300 years or so, is so gross and dark that it can scarcely be comprehended. Though it is without doubt foolish to write this way, the Protestant resistance and murder of Roman Catholics by comparison is very small indeed.

It may therefore appear strange to say that I love Roman Catholics and respect their reasonable ambition to hold onto traditional values and institutions. I would even gladly have supper with the Pope and have no difficulty in calling him Lord Bishop as would be due to his rank, from the mouth of a non Roman Catholic. I also believe that the Roman Catholic Church is a true church. Which runs very contrary to most protestants thinkers who are still protestors. Every tenet of the centrality of the gospel of grace is evident in Rome, and I have certain knowledge that hundreds of priests and many thousands of Roman Catholics have come to a knowledge of Christ crucified for sin. Of these the majority come out of Rome. Only in recent years has this “coming out” been stemmed by reason of the seeming acceptance by Rome of a more evangelical faith. There are other reasons as well. The simple point is this. Don’t make assumptions about who you think a man is because he has a certain objection to blasphemy and heresy in Christ’ name. If this seems contradictory then so be it. Rome is a true church, it is also apostate and blasphemous. In like manner Israel to whom Christ came, were true Israel and not pretenders. This did not change because they were apostate when He came. It simply meant they did not comprehend Him.

Hi Romanchog,

You make a general statement about things not having been said before. You are wrong about SI and about myself. I have written more about evangelicals being part of the whore church than I have about Catholicism. If I had been around 500 years ago I would have been an ana-baptist, a group of people greatly persecuted by the reformers, and again I have written about it. I also gave the founder of this website a book entitled " Mary Dyer," a woman tortured and killed by the puritans for having a personal faith in Jesus and claiming to speak to Him.

For the record I am an ex Catholic, born and raised in an Irish Catholic family in the West Coast of Scotland, my family being Catholics for hundreds of years if not all of their history. So it is always interesting to hear someone claim that Catholicism is a real Church. It is a clear sign , and I make no apologies for this, that those who say that are simply ignorant of the Catholic church and doctrine. Can I ask my brother from England who admittedly is not a Catholic, if he can explain to us here about the central doctrine of the Catholic church which stands as proud now as it always has, transubtansiation? This was typically the question, answered in-correctly, that would get you burned.
And Arm, what do you know of the belief of Mary as co-redemtrix ? Purgatory? The fact that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church unless one found Christ in ignorance of the Catholic teaching, then as soon as one is informed, that one must bow the knee to the Pope as the teaching authority of Christ on earth who speaks infallibly on matters of faith and morals? To say nothing of one needing to sanctified in order to justified, and the only way for sanctification is through the sacraments. What, if any of this is truth ARM? On what grounds do you call the Catholic church a True church?

This notion that Catholicism is a mere branch of Christianity flies in the face of the truth of Scripture not just in one but in every major fundamental doctrinal truth. As far as killing folks in the name of Jesus, whoever you are, you can be sure that it comes from the depths of hell. Its Jesus's followers who are killed, they are never the ones doing the killing.......... bro Frank

For the record I am an ex Catholic, born and raised in an Irish Catholic family in the West Coast of Scotland, my family being Catholics for hundreds of years if not all of their history. So it is always interesting to hear someone claim that Catholicism is a real Church. It is a clear sign , and I make no apologies for this, that those who say that are simply ignorant of the Catholic church and doctrine. Can I ask my brother from England who admittedly is not a Catholic, if he can explain to us here about the central doctrine of the Catholic church which stands as proud now as it always has, transubtansiation? This was typically the question, answered in-correctly, that would get you burned.

And Arm, what do you know of the belief of Mary as co-redemtrix ? Purgatory? The fact that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church unless one found Christ in ignorance of the Catholic teaching, then as soon as one is informed, that one must bow the knee to the Pope as the teaching authority of Christ on earth who speaks infallibly on matters of faith and morals? To say nothing of one needing to sanctified in order to justified, and the only way for sanctification is through the sacraments. What, if any of this is truth ARM? On what grounds do you call the Catholic church a True church?

Well brother I may live in England but my Father was/is an Irish Roman Catholic and my mother was a Scottish Roman Catholic of Jewish lineage from the Isle of Sky. I was raised an English Catholic and so on. In fact on account of the Scottish, Irish and Jewish parts of my family I can say I am a real mongrel. Praise God for that.

As to whether I personally understand Roman Catholic Theological doctrines, the answer is yes I do. When I got saved my first point of contact was with a Roman Catholic Priest and he, at my own request gave me a Catholic Theological Typology of Roman Dogmas just for the pleasure of seeing me throw it in the bin. He wasn’t false and moreover he wasn’t comfortable in seeking to lead me into Roman Dogmas and heresies. In fact I would say he was actually restrained by the Holy Spirit from leading me astray. How was that possible? It was possible because despite his rank in the Roman Church as Monsignor, he was saved. I cant say why he remained in Rome I can only bear witness to the fact that when he prayed he uttered no blasphemies and spoke of the Father in heaven in such terms that my own spirit bore witness with his true faith. If I were to deny this fact I would be a hypocrite.

By God’ grace I was editor of a magazine called Outreach to Catholics along side of a brother named Martin Buckingham which reached Roman Catholics through the testimonies of former Catholic Priests, one of whom co-authored “Far From Rome Near To God” with Martin buckingham, which I was also blessed to help research. In short brother I have immersed myself in this subject for many many years, not as an heretic, but as one who regularly wept and grieved before God for the souls of Catholics. I have gone up to walsingham the English Catholic Shrine of “Our Lady of Walsingham” and openly rebuked bishops, priests and others who blatantly paraded about carrying their idols with such pride and in such defiance of the truth. Never once did I meet one man who I could say in my conscience was a true believer. When we preached we did not mince our words and we preached the full consequence of being led astray and leading astray. We did it without a bull horn, for God gave us a natural bull horn, even our mouths and we were not afraid to open it fully.

Why then do I say that the Roman Church is a true church? The answer is simply because unlike all other heretical cults, Rome, despite her false doctrines and blasphemies, has that which is central and necessary for a man or woman to believe in and to know the truth concerning Christ. What you focus on is not the truth brother. You focus on the lies. It is not lies which cause men to perish, it is a total absence of truth. I really don’t care to argue the point beyond saying that simple thing. I take my conscience from God and not from men. I have to give an account to God and not to men. I weep before God and call upon Him to release those who are inclined to righteous truth to come out of Rome before that hour when God Himself will permit Rome to be laid waste at its very heart, when many catholics will be scattered and become as chaff before the true enemies of the Gospel in that day. What priests, bishops, arch bishops, cardinals and popes do is of no concern to me. I know they are liars and I have no doubt about it. I would not hesitate to say it to every single one of them in conclave plainly and straight forwardly. Yet I cannot deny that in Rome there is sufficient light for anyone who desires to truly know God to come to that true knowledge. This makes Rome a true church, albeit an apostate one. It is not possible to be apostate unless you have first come to the apostles teaching. You cannot be that which you have not yet received. You cannot be fallen away from the apostles teaching unless you have the teaching of the apostles to fall away from.

Im not a protestant in some historical time warp, my concern is with the living and the reality of peoples lives today. When the day comes when the cry will be clearly heard, “come out of her my people” you can be certain that those coming out will be God’ people. Or how else can God speak of them “my people”. I don’t say that others should think as I think. Nor do I expect that too many have a very direct singular reason to think the way I do. Yet if we are to reach out to Roman Catholics, to the many who are not saved, it is because they are not yet saved, even as many who take the name of Christ in many reformed churches do not yet truly know Christ unto salvation. Apostasy began in the time of the apostles and it was already a spirit of anti-christ seeking to lead believers away from the true liberty of the gospel of grace entrusted to the apostles. It became Rome and it remains Rome. Yet many are her daughters, or how else is she called a mother of harlots if she is not indeed the mother of harlots. Yet even in these daughters of hers are lights and opportunities to be truly saved. If you insist on telling someone to leave their house before it catches fire don’t be surprised if they take offence. On the other hand when the time comes for her destruction you can be certain that those who are raised up for that day will by their countenance and speech prove to be a compelling instrument of God to the saving of many lives. It is the hour we live in and not the hour of another day which should concern us.

Apart from that brother we have no disagreement at all.

AD writes.........

"It's utterly impossible to look at the truth as revealed in Scripture, and then compare the Roman Catholic Church to that... and conclude they are anywhere close to being the same thing."

Amen brother, and therin lies ARMkelly's problem. So brother, let me see if I can sum up what you just said. You can tell a Catholic that they are part of a true church ( whatever that means outside of the Body of Christ) yet they must leave it and be saved. Why be saved and leave a " true church?" It makes no sense brother, none at all. What exact teaching makes them a true church ARM? Is it the fact that they believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Do they (edited because I wrote "you," did not want you to think that I was asking you the question ARM, for I know and can testify that you are wonderfully saved and a trophy of grace) believe in the same Jesus we believe in? When once I was simply sharing with a staunch Catholic about my personal relationship with Jesus, she announced after I got through that she did not know that Jesus. The Jesus she knew was the wafer she consumed on a Sunday morning. Now why was that brother? Because that is the central tenet of the Catholic faith that this wafer is actually Jesus. This is where Catholicism begins and ends. And this is truth? This makes it a true church? I am sorry brother, we will have to agree to disagree. My heart lies with brother ADs reply. This is the mystery of iniquity. Far from being a " true church," the Catholic church, in my opinion, is destined to lead the great whore church which will swallow up most of protestantism as well. This was her destiny, she was born for that. Does that mean that there are no believers within the Catholic church for whatever reason? No, I believe that there are. Yet, the notion that a priest who was genuinely saved and knew the real Jesus, yet was involved in the pagentery and wickedness of presenting Him as a piece of bread every week and keeping people in the darkness of their church which was leading them to hell, is a bizarre one. May the Lord forgive him if he was genuinely saved. When we come to Jesus, we give up our lives, and if we are living a life of sin, then that is turned away from , not embraced and indulged in every week, for any reason,unless one would preach that you have to be a drunkard to reach drunks? ..............bro Frank

Amen brother, and therin lies ARMkelly's problem. So brother, let me see if I can sum up what you just said. You can tell a Catholic that they are part of a true church ( whatever that means outside of the Body of Christ) yet they must leave it and be saved. Why be saved and leave a " true church?" It makes no sense brother, none at all. What exact teaching makes them a true church ARM? Is it the fact that they believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Do they (edited because I wrote "you," did not want you to think that I was asking you the question ARM, for I know and can testify that you are wonderfully saved and a trophy of grace) believe in the same Jesus we believe in? When once I was simply sharing with a staunch Catholic about my personal relationship with Jesus, she announced after I got through that she did not know that Jesus. The Jesus she knew was the wafer she consumed on a Sunday morning. Now why was that brother? Because that is the central tenet of the Catholic faith that this wafer is actually Jesus. This is where Catholicism begins and ends. And this is truth? This makes it a true church? I am sorry brother, we will have to agree to disagree.

Bless you brother I had no idea I had a problem! No brother I didn’t say I could or would tell a catholic anything. I was speaking to you brother unless you missed that point. Leaving Rome won’t save anyone. Anymore than being in Rome makes certain that a person will perish. If it makes no sense its because you are not listening. You are imputing your own ideas onto me. What I say brother is what I mean. I don’t say what you say. I ask what you say or else simply quote you. Don’t change the words unless you accept that by doing so we end up talking about something else. I won’t be led by the nose by any man. So I speak plainly. You ought to do the same and that means don’t say I said something I didn’t say. As you yourself made the point in a recent post to romanchog, you don’t like to be misrepresented.

The Nicene Creed brother makes them a true church. Go and read it. Most born again believers haven’t even read it. If they did they would have to agree with it. Just imagine that someone reading the Nicene Creed and being saved. Do you want a list of testimonies of those in Rome who have read the Creed and been saved? Or perhaps you would like to read the testimony of a priest who was saved right in the middle of Mass. Just as he lifted the wafer god up to allow others to adore it, God said, hi, here I Am. What a shock that must have been! Perhaps you didn’t realise this but the vast majority of Roman Catholics have absolutely no comprehension of what transubstantiation actually means. Which is why they end up making a somewhat bemused or else prideful response to those who reject them out of hand and consign them to an eternity of suffering, in complete denial that the average Roman Catholic has a more accurate understanding of the central doctrines of life (albeit it dogmatically) than does the average born again believer (who has life). Sure there are other doctrines which make vain the truth, thats for sure. But the doctrines of life are there if anyone really has a desire to know God and Christ. Like I said brother if you only ever focus on dogma yourself and don’t look beyond legalism and comprehend none the condition of the person you are speaking with, as well as drawing out what they do understand, you will no doubt miss them all together.

You clearly have no comprehension as to what the body of Christ is, and what a church is. They are not the same. The distinction ought to a simple one, but no doubt that too will come down to a matter of opinion. My own preferred explanation is a simple one. Is it a field? Is there any soil with even a little nutrient in it? Are there any seeds to sown? Will any one plough and tend the field even a little? Is there any rain? Well, scatter the seeds, plough the field, water it and hey presto a filed full of wheat. Whatever is ruinous or corrupt the angels will winnow when the day comes. Who made you or I their judge?

One thing brother my name is Andrew. I have no idea who ARM is!

Yes I have met some of those “strong” catholics myself. A real devil’s mob to be sure. Dark, sultry, given to unpleasantness and almost always smelling of tallow and incense. A right mob for sure. I watched one such lovely lady listening to me preaching one day and saw no opposition in her at all. Until I finished and went to sit with her. I asked, are you a christian? She said no! I am a Roman Catholic! So I smiled and said, yes I know what you mean! At which point the distinction became clear to both of us. Afterwards I thought to myself, she was in no way opposed to the Gospel and yet she still had bonds which kept her from the true Gospel. Thats what a cult does to people. I have been involved in bringing down a number of such abusive situations over the years. Its alway astonishing how they work. First a believer, then a few more believers, then a few doctrines of theology just to help people keep on track. Then a few rules, after all without rules we would all be lost! Right! Then a name here and there and then a title and wow things just go mental. Heartache, scattering, oppression, control and falling away. A bit like the history of the Church really, especially the Roman Catholic Church. But no way limited to them. Im sure you know what I mean! Anyways thanks for the help brother.

bro Frank,

ohhhhhhhh, this is truly, TRULY cause for grief.

In the Old Testament, when one reads, say Nehemiah, hearing of the dire condition of both the remnant in Jerusalem and of the state of the City...Nehemiah did what then?..

mourned, wept, fasted.

What about Daniel? what does he say, at the Leading of Yahweh? priests ...do what?

weep and wail between the porch and the altar?

because of?...the abomination that causes desolation.

something so foul, nasty and wicked, that the only response one can make is to WAIL...and WEEP!

wait though...men dont weep, right?

NO! Lets assemble...an army!....just like the "provos", look how that turned out.

This is just TERRIBLE...and what makes it WORSE, is exactly what you speak of.....protestantism being "swallowed up" by that scarlet whore "church".

Now this is not us, being "evil" men, speaking out of our "evil" minds, look what "leading luminaries" of protestantism, are saying...OR "tweeting"

it seems like Rick Warren couldnt sleep last night, coz:

At 2:57 a.m., Warren sent out the following call to his over 900,000 followers on Twitter: “Join me today in fasting and prayer for the 115 Cardinals seeking God’s Will in a new leader.”

do you know what i feel as the Lord leads?

(let me put it in caps, not to "shout", but to highlight this Leading)

ITS TIME TO SEPERATE.

the seperation from rome happened centuries ago, so.....what do we seperate from?...how about the wicked fruit and ways and abuses of ecclesiastical darkness?

once robust, Christ centered denominations....Christ centered......Jesus at the Center....not a "country"...now these denominations...maybe they ordain "gay" males...or maybe they ordain "gay" females...or maybe they serve as the trojan horses for a war machine, or an empire, falling all over themselves to try and wrap a STATUE of Jesus in an American flag, or ANY flag.....lets see, that covers, the Lutherans, United Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, the UCC, the Baptists..(no not them!!!)the Assemblies of God...wait i have to stop! there are so MANY different denominations, i cant even keep track of them....didnt John 17 refer to the Church, that is the Body of Christ as One?

then why all these different denominations?

Brethern, i got to tell you all....as a Jew who follows Jesus..the Risen Messiah....i have NEVER understood, WHY the Body of Christ has been subjected to this 'slicing and dicing' into what seems to be COUNTLESS INSTITUTIONS.

why?

maybe i've gone insane? i'm speaking like a fool, am i not?

but why is this?....the roman institution i understand, becoz the devil needs a home base, somewhere to lay haunt, Constantine was satans man, he, at his father's, satan's urging, formed the "holy roman church".....utter darkness lay pall over that institution, but all the other "denominations"?

why?...is there ANYWHERE in Holy Scripture, that would be the Foundation for such a confused state of the BODY OF CHRIST?

i have an idea! Why dont we LOOK into Scripture and see what those first followers of Jesus Messiah, termed This Body:

could it be "The Way"?

anyone care to tell me i am wrong?...wrong headed?...wrong hearted?

isnt This Most Holy Faith....The Way?...isnt that how the beloved physician Luke recounted that in the Acts of the Apostles?

i have to stop writing now, i love you all with the Love of Jesus, i dont mean to be contentious, much blessing to all the saints at SI, may the Grace and Peace of the Lord Jesus Chrst be with your spirits, amen. neil

Andrew, you write........

"You clearly have no comprehension as to what the body of Christ is, and what a church is."

"The Nicene Creed brother makes them a true church."

I always speak plainly brother. Let us agree to disagree.I see no possibility of fruit here and lobbing bombs at each other wont help. God bless you Andrew and may the Lord guide us both into all truth...........bro Frank

Thanks for your clear thinking Neil. You are right, much of it started with Constantine and went down hill from there. You are not insane, you are right on the money. Read John 17 and see how Jesus speaks directly to us who were still to come. He would pour out His glory, share His glory with those who would be one , be one, so that the world would know that the Father had sent Him and that the Father loves them. IN these words we find sanity..............bro Frank

romanchog said:

" I learned Church history from Protestants so I did not learn about the persecution done by Protestants until fairly recently and felt that I had been lied to."

Jim says:

Revelation tells us of a mystery whore and her harlot daughters. This typifies the relationship between rome and protestantism. The daughters ran away in rebellion, but the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. They just started their own harlot churches where THEY could have the power, praise of men, and persecute others instead of being subjected to the same by rome.

We must get back to the new testament, get back to the teachings of Christ and the apostles. The church is not a building, organization, or even a place we go to. We are the church, the true saints. They are the harlot impostor of the bride of Jesus, whether they go by mothers maiden name (catholics) or the names of her harlot daughters (lutheran, etc).

Yet God has many people who are still in "that city". Come out from among them, be ye separate and clean says the Lord. Flee from Babylon, run for your lives, lest you receive of her plagues. Seek saints who will gather together on level ground as brothers and sisters who truly make up the body of Christ. Obey the simple pattern that is laid out in the NT, not in romes false teachings, or one of her harlot protestant daughters church doctrines. Don't trust deceptive words or mans traditions. We (protestant/evangelicals) must look at the word of God and learn to hate our traditions just as we would expect a mormon who claims to be a true believer to hate their false traditions (albeit mormonism is much worse).

There is a harlot church, led by a type of antichrist, and there are many harlot daughters who follow after her. In the midst of this their is a true bride by the grace of God and the Spirit of the Lord says COME. Come out from the one and come into the purity and reality of the other. You may be called a trouble maker, judgmental, and many things, but unlike saints of centuries past you most likely will get to keep your life for now. Many jews wanted Jesus killed because they were so devoted to their false traditions. The same spirit of religion is alive today in christendom and will gain more power until they once again kill, thinking that they do God a favor.

Submitted for edification and to encourage those whom the Spirit has already revealed these things to.

In Christ -Jim

Jim writes.........

"Seek saints who will gather together on level ground as brothers in sisters who truly make up the body of Christ. Obey the simple pattern that is laid out in the NT, not in romes false teachings, or one of her harlot protestant daughters church doctrines. Don't trust deceptive words or mans traditions."

Amen brother. This is one of the reasons brother Greg started Gospel fellowships. This great whore church, when it fully comes to fruition and has swallowed up evangelicalism and all denominations, will once again be the the enemy of the Body of Christ. If in Catholic France or Poland or Mexico or an other Catholic country, then the Catholic church will take the lead. In America the evangelicals are dominant therefore when the whore church is fully come together, the evangelical denominations will take the lead, and by taking the lead I mean persecuting the saints.............bro Frank

romnchog said:

"I know they are idolaters, but are we not all idolaters? "

sister, in a sense we should all be very humbled by areas of idolatry in our own hearts. Yet rome loves, defends, upholds, and promotes their idolatry. Like any sin a true saint will be brought to conviction and the Lord will deal with them in due season... yet romes entire religious structure is built upon idolatry and lies.

Would we go to a a religious institution whose foundational doctrines promoted homosexuals orgies, because after all, "arent we all sexually immoral?"

No mam, the word of God says that all idolaters will have their part in the lake of fire, and again - come out from among them, what fellowship has Christ with idols. If there is idolatry in us may the Lord purge it by His living waters. Yet babylons religion is built on these things, she refuses to repent of them, and when allowed murders those who refuse to bow to her idols.

God bless you in Christ Jesus. -Jim

Andrew says that the Roman church is a true church. He does not say it is The true church.

The true church is the body of Christ, bought with His precious blood.

]"A true church" is speaking in the context of "the churches", and, in these last days, specifically the churches of Revelation chaps 2 and 3.

The Roman church is propheticlly seen as Thyatira; The protestant church, as Sardis; Philadelphia, as the true church, which in heart we should aspire to; and Laodicea as the final state of apostacy.

All 4 of these churches go on to the end, as they all contain references to His coming.

All 4 have a reference to a small remnant, a few who are faithful.

I pray we may be found in Philadelphia. Come Lord Jesus.

David

Thank you brother for your clarification. It is always better to come from someone led of the Spirit. What you have shared here is in simplicity the fullness of the reality of the day we live in. May Christ indeed find us in philadelphia (the church of brotherly love) when He returns.

Hi David, lets suppose that the Roman church is prophetically Thyatira. She was given time to repent and she did not. She was given over to her own wickedness and only a small remnant would be saved out of her, ie myself and the many millions Of Catholics ( a small number considering she represents a sixth of the world) and they came out of her. So, at the very best, she was a true church, not is a true church( one spoken in the past tense, the other in the present tense) To say that she " is," a true church gives false comfort to millions who may be wrestling with the truth and wanting to break free from a cultish system that teaches, on pain of eternal damnation, that to leave the " one true church," is to go to hell..........bro Frank

Thank you brother for your clarification. It is always better to come from someone led of the Spirit.

that is not right, nor right minded of you, because there is an IMPLICIT barb within that "encouragement".

i'm disappointed in you, but then again, you and i have never really made a 'connection' vis-a-vis this forum...and thats alright. Such should come naturally and organically, and if its not there, thats God's will.

But again, that implicit barb hurled is not right, and i think upon further self examination, you will see that, and if you've been given a spirit of humility, will repent of such.

in Jesus' love, neil

Hi David, I never accepted your theory that the church in Thyatira was the Catholic church. The Catholic church does not teach this and in fact, of course, the name itself teaches that she belives herself to be the Body of Christ and not some local church in any city. I only said " lets suppose." Then I took the hindsight of history to show that the Catholic church did not nor ever has repented of her wickedness. To this day she would deny completly that she is or ever was wicked as an institution, at her fundamental core. All teachings remain, and of course must remain as infallibility of the pope in faith and morals remains a core doctrine. Lets remember brother that Thyatira was not a church but a place, merley described as the church "in," Thyatira and those people "in," Thyatira. Scriptures never instituted the abomination of denomination, and we should not attempt to intoduce it to Scripture. God bless you brother. I know that you live in a Catholic country which even resisted the reformation, so is as Catholic as any country could be. And so to those living in France who "have not the doctrine" of this wicked church, hold fast until He comes for He is coming soon. Overcome and keep doing His works and not the works of those who hold to another doctrine.

David, it seems abundantly clear that those who " have not the doctrine," speaks to those who do not hold to another doctrine. You cannot remain within the Catholic faith and hold to another doctrine other than theirs. As simple as this seems, it seems to be lost on so many .............bro Frank

that is not right, nor right minded of you, because there is an IMPLICIT barb within that "encouragement".

i'm disappointed in you, but then again, you and i have never really made a 'connection' vis-a-vis this forum...and thats alright. Such should come naturally and organically, and if its not there, thats God's will.

But again, that implicit barb hurled is not right, and i think upon further self examination, you will see that, and if you've been given a spirit of humility, will repent of such.

in Jesus' love, neil

Hi Niel

I have to tell you brother that you have this completely wrong. What I wrote here to David was a straight matter of fact. I myself was intending to make the almost exact post last night to try and explain what I was driving at when I speak of "a church" as distinct from "the church". I made the point to apollos regarding not knowing the true meaning of "the body of Christ" and "a church". This was it and not some other. I even thought to explain the very point about Thyatira, Philadelphia but felt restrained in some way, perhaps concern that I would be pushing the whole agenda regarding this business of Roman Catholicism, Apostasy and the end of the age. It is God' calling in my life, I have nothing else which concerns me and I have some very singular revelations and leading on the matter. I have had from the very first day I believed and remain in that mind to this very hour. Nothing in this encouragement to David was directed at anyone. I promise you brother Niel you are often in my mind. I sense a clear love for you, though I can see you, unlike your being unable to see me. You understand this of course. Given the post by David, which I read this morning I thanked the Lord before I thanked David. This does not make what David has shared right or wrong it just means that it represents the same mind of understanding. The Lord bless you Niel and give you peace.

Hi David, what I wanted to say and neglected to say was the love that I sensed in your opening post to me , you wrote " Beloved Appolus." I loved that, and I could sense your love in that simple phrase. And so I say back to you " my beloved friend," may the Lord always lead and guide us ..........bro Frank

David, it seems abundantly clear that those who " have not the doctrine," speaks to those who do not hold to another doctrine. You cannot remain within the Catholic faith and hold to another doctrine other than theirs. As simple as this seems, it seems to be lost on so many . appolos

One of the things which one finds when speaking with former Roman Catholics is that of necessity their coming out of Rome hinges primarily on the realisation that they cannot justify themselves before God through the sacramental route. Baptism, confirmation, communion, confession being the chief, just according to the particular tradition of Anglicanism (English Catholic) and Roman Catholicism. Clearly this growing realisation demonstrates in finality a lack of confidence and belief in sacramental salvation, rather than what is afterwards fully comprehended, that salvation is by faith, and not of works. This struggle co-exists within the same person as a contradiction, and long before it is fully settled they remain in the Roman Catholic tradition. The contradiction is settled at the point that a person receives revelation of God concerning the true gift of eternal life, i.e. faith alone. Before this latter struggle settles the matter, the contradiction remains for the one who is being saved. The contradiction lies in the heart of the individual and not all around them. Around them there is no contradiction there is only a uniform lie. In them, the contradiction is hidden and the best outcome is that it remains hidden until deliverance is received by way of a true revelation of God. Then they can confess that which they comprehend. Then they themselves have to act according to their own conscience. To demand a particular outcome is to believe that we have the power and the right thereof to direct the souls and consciences of men and women. What these ones do who go through this struggle does seem to be a desire to leave. But this is not always the case, yet how they stay as a light within the darkness will be a difficult thing to bear for one who is truly born of the Spirit of God. Nevertheless some do remain.

There is another difficult question. Was this person in any way born again before they started to become aware of the struggle working in them, and as it is initially comprehended by them, against them? Who knows? Only God knows those who are His. If we cant accept this it is no doubt a problem. Yet it ought not to be a problem if we comprehend that being born gain is the simplest of all things and the beginning of salvation, which in its fullness must account for the spirit (spirit born of Spirit), the soul (the cross) and the body (resurrection from the dead or else putting off corruption for incorruption), being saved. Rome has every good reason to present itself officially as a lover of families and as a lover of righteous conduct. After all, as some say in this regard, Satan comes as an angel of light to deceive. The difficulty however, is that for more than 1000 years there was no other church and most of the western world was under it, proselytised by it, and accepted its teachings implicitly. Did all perish for one thousand years? Does anyone imagine that the countless poor and simple peoples of many nations around the world today, have no opportunity to believe because they were baptised into a Jezebelic prophetic covenant with Satan? Through no fault of their own, were they taken at birth and Rome presses them from the first sacramental deception of infant baptism through to their seventh year, when they with their own childish mouths confirm their faith?

Even for someone outside of all churches this struggle is not less real. Only to such as these it is a struggle which is more evidently brought about by worldly and fleshy self interest. There is no simple and straight forward answer to the question of who is saved (born again) and who is not. The only scriptural test is to test yourself, do you have the witness of Christ in you, bearing witness with your own spirit made alive by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, crying Abba Father. Just as Christ continuously spoke of the Father, so we are told that Christ came for a singular purpose, that we might know the Father and the Son, and that the Father and the Son are One.

All the testimonies I have read concerning Roman Catholics being saved and coming out of Rome (mostly priests) hinge on this reality of finally comprehending after many many years of struggle, that eternal life is a free gift of God. As this stands so far in contradiction with the dogmas of Rome clearly a conflict will be inevitable. Not only this but Rome does not set the standard of what constitutes truth. Its vain traditions are all at variance with the plain truth of Scriptures, yet the conflict with these dogmas does not come because of this variance, but because of the truth itself which exposes them to be at variance. In all such struggles there can be only one winner. Who is stronger than God? Not only this but we have to be mature ourselves and know God' will and purposes in how He saves men and women and in what manner of place and time. Rome and Roman Catholics hold to the teaching of the resurrection of Christ from the dead. We ought to comprehend that it is this glorious and wonderful reality in Christ' own body which guarantees life. Nothing else. Not even the cross in this sense is a guarantee, if Christ be not raised from the dead.

Bro Andrew writes.............

"The difficulty however, is that for more than 1000 years there was no other church and most of the western world was under it, proselytised by it, and accepted its teachings implicitly."

Now brother, I am sure you agree that I have quoted you verbatim? The above statement is far from true. In every region of the world, God had a witness, a remant if you like. Why did He have that? Because He is faithful. I suggest that you read "The Pilgrim church," and anyone else who would like to trace the Body of Christ from the Apostles on down. Also Foxes book of Martyrs will give you a good record of witnesses from every century. I put alos put together a little video from martyrs down through the ages. Point being, there is plenty of evidence out there if we want to see brothers and sisters who stood against the might of Popish Rome right from the beginning, it is a glorious history.

I would also like to point out that the vast majority of Catholics who come to Jesus leave the church right away. A dean of a well known Christian college here in KC asked me one time ( and I was shocked that he asked) "Why, when Mexican converts come to Christ do they leave the Catholic church right away and not even want to be known as Catholics?" Now, of course, the reason is that the Holy Spirit leads and guides them out of wickedness whether they are a dirt farmer or a college professor. The minority, and it's tiny, stay for other more complicated reasons, but, as with all matters of sanctification, its a matter of choosing to yield to the revealed truth that the Holy Spirit imparts to us. As in all matters of sanctification, if we refuse to yield to revealed truth, then it is we who suffer as we continue to sin against the Holy Spirit.

By the way, many different cults believe and would acknowledge that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, and of course the devil believes that Jesus was raised from the dead and trembles. The Aryian brotherhood, with a Bible in one hand and a machine gun in the other believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.........bro Frank

Brothers if I might respectfully ask. Can one be truly born again and remain in tbe context of the RCC. Moslems, Mormons, JW's, Hindu's, Buddhist's etc will leave their cuktic systems when they have had that marelous encounter with Jesus.

Bearmaster.

Well Frank I knew that was coming. Even as I wrote the words in the original format which was “The difficulty however, is that for more than 1000 years there was no other church and the whole of the western world was under it, proselytised by it, and accepted its teachings implicitly." So I thought to myself “I know I will just change this a little bit as follows “The difficulty however, is that for more than 1000 years there was no other church and most of the western world was under it, proselytised by it, and accepted its teachings implicitly." Perhaps I said to myself no one will slate me for saying it. I should have known better. Now I am asking myself, was just changing the word “whole” to “most” a snare just to keep this thing going or was it a failure to address the obvious underlying reality that there has been true believers in every age without exception. The word “whole” would have meant “all” and the word “most” would have meant the “majority”. Its a struggle to cover every base.

I do know how to set snares that for sure. Yet this is not my ambition here. On the other hand there will be no changing the mind of a man already made up, even though his mind is reasonable enough for all that.

Brother the history of all true believers could not be written in a book. I have a library of books containing many volumes of research and learning, most of which goes beyond anything undertaken in the last 200 years. Even in the last 150 years it is only possible to find a few undertakings which amount to a truly significant effort to demonstrate the history of the church. Any attempt to trace a history of Rome demonstrates something of the problem facing this question of what is Rome, as of the 4th century, and Rome as of the proceeding centuries, all of which have their own characteristics and changes in dogma like the waves of the sea has foam which hides the waters beneath. Rome was never a single entity or belief or man. It has always been like shifting sand as the waves crash in and compel change, or else as the Devil skips from foam pillow to foam pillow sowing seeds for his own purposes, which seeds are immediately lost to sight and only become known when the tree is bearing fruit.

This does not however deny the fact nor negate the reality that Rome did in finality become what we now call Rome. The thousand years I spoke of were those which passed between the 4th and the 14th century. Moreover protestantism is much older than "protestantism". If the original meaning of the word is to be taken as it was intended, it amounts to saying no more than “those who protested” against Rome. In this sense Roman Catholicism is not simply a religious system which was fully formed around the 14th century but was already Political Rome from the day of the Caesars beginning in the 6th decade of the first century. Yet the Apostles did not exactly protest against Rome even then. One might even say this “mystery” began with the friendship which was formed between Ponticus Pilatus and Herod. A friendship which only became possible after they had finished their part in the Lord’ crucifixion.

This “mystery” was in the first instance a work of Israel and Rome. Just read how enthusiastically the Pharisees pressed their charge “we have no king other than Caesar” and how Herod and Pilate became good friends after the death of Christ. Its Scriptural, not fictional. Constantine is significant clearly, but these are just vulgar perceptions. The reality is so complex that it is impossible for most people to either find the time or afford the cost of building a library equal to the task.

So in that context the Foxes Book of Martyrs serves to simplify or find out that there has always been believers who were hated and martyred by “Church” authorities. If you see that however as proof that before the reformation there was somehow another “Church” other than Rome you would have lost sight of what Rome is and why it is prophetically alluded to in Revelation as well as its intertwine of political as well as spiritual reality that it became, and not simply from its more formal beginning in the 4th century.

There is a work of study by J A Wylie which probably amounts to the most comprehensive work ever undertaken on this subject of true Protestantism, by semantic meaning, and which really does show both sides of this issue. That of the Roman Catholic Church as a developing political and spiritual reality, in contrast to that of the deep roots of protestantism from the first century apostolic church up to what we now call the Reformation in England, as the final historical gasp of true protest. These two realities if confused in any way will give rise to a schism, at the root of which lies a determination of the wicked one keep the babylonian confusion a reality in the sight of men.

What I say is that today we are free from the protest because we are come into a time of completion when it is more necessary to understand God’ mercy than it is necessary to kick against Rome as it has been politically understood since the 1660’s. Most of the violence and murder by Protestants has come since the 1600’s and a failure of previous generations to settle the question of how to comprehend Rome has led to every kind of insanity. This itself has led to present day commentators to claim that these murderers were themselves fully evil men and therefore they too do not represent the true church. They are of course correct. But if by that, we then go on to lay hold of the only comfort we can find in our detestation of Roman Catholic Dogma, and reject the Reformation itself or limit its true meaning, or else reject its benefit, we will either return to Rome ourselves, or else cleave to the only crumb left which is to claim that the only true church is a small number of believers who protested against everything which took on the form of establishment or the appliance of organised religion and faith. If we do this we have condemned every soul of man, bar a few to eternal destruction because they were part of these visible churches. The first of which was Rome, and her many daughters, (who are become no less apostate and idolatrous), are become the many who have followed on. Now even the Evangelical tradition of sound doctrine and presentation of the Gospel, as well as Pentecostals, Charismatics and all the rest are imperceptibly being drawn under Roman Catholic babylonian influence, because of a “new” gospel which is now being preached. It is of course the prosperity, kingdom now hyper faith gospel which requires no faith at all. It just requires one to become a natural witch and follow the lusts of the flesh and the evil pride of life; a thing which even a dog can manage.

Its a truly brave thing to claim that the only true believers in every age were those who protested, whether we begin in the days of Nero and end in the days of Boniface VIII, or elect to speak of John Wycliffe to Martin Luther. As it was pointed out by Niel, shall we call out the Provos again? I think not. Better to truly comprehend the time we live in and serve accordingly.

By the way, many different cults believe and would acknowledge that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, and of course the devil believes that Jesus was raised from the dead and trembles. The Aryian brotherhood, with a Bible in one hand and a machine gun in the other believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.........bro Frank

What is this all about Frank? Really brother do you really believe this. “The Devil believes that Jesus was raised from the dead”. Frank the Devil doesn’t believe it, he knows it. Jesus confronted Him in Hades face to face. That’s not belief, that’s reality. When the man who is to be hung by the neck sees the hand of the executioner move to the rope he doesn’t believe, he knows he is about to die. When you and I believed, we knew we were going to live forever. I have heard this kind of irrational logic shared many time here on SI and it always leaves me wondering. The reason the Devil believes in God is because when he first opened his eyes in the day he was created he looked the Son of God in the eyes. I cant even comment on the last part.

Thanks for quoting me verbatim that really helped no end brother.

Brethren I am no scholar. Some if you command libraries more than simple New Testament. But I ask you respectfully again. Can one be born again and remain in the context if the zcntext if the RCC.

If memory serves those Reformers and Anabaptist who came to the truth of Jesus left the RCC. Reading the testimoy lf anyone born again in a cult, they leave. Is this not try of anyone born in tbe RCC.

Bearmaster.

Brother Chris writes.........

"The greatest flaw in the Catholic church is not its pagan-inspired teachings, added doctrines, vain traditions and history of violence. Rather, the greatest flaw in the Catholic church is the fact that it does not present the real Jesus to its adherents. The "Jesus" that the Catholics present -- along side the "saints" -- is a false god that does not truly exist."
Amen brother , amen indeed.

David, we are called to worship In Spirit and in truth. My key points to Andrew have been that the Catholic church is not a true church. I also made the point that his statement "“The difficulty however, is that for more than 1000 years there was no other church" was simply and factually wrong. If we must, I can easily agree to disagree on these points, I wont relent on them, but can agree to disagree. I know that if I resorted to naming the size of my library or my own qualifications for speaking, then that would simply be prideful and foolish on my part, but most especially fruitless. So, since it is clear that Andrew and I disagree then it seems best just to lay out what we believe to be true and let the Lord lead and guide the readers into all truth.

Dear sister Maryjane, I am encouraged by your words and I thank you. It seems to me that ex-Catholics who have found the real Jesus are some of the most wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ and have such a love of God's Word and Truth and since, having counted the cost and left the Roman church behind, are not easily fooled and are more sensitive to the wickedness of Rome and the mystery of iniquity. Brothers and sisters, all i can say to you is that it is not going to get any better in regard to the Roman church. Great pressures will come to bear as the cultural winds begin to pick up and we head towards the great whore church and persecution that is to come. My devotional today on my website is about turning the other cheek :) I get to practice that. I rejoice in the salvation of our beloved brother Andrew, and whether I agree with him in this matter or not, this takes nothing away from the fact that Andrew is a trophy of the Lord's grace and mercy and in this I rejoice............bro Frank

Brother Frank your comment about the cost that former Roman Catholics have to bear when they do come out of Rome is a sobering one. Its easy to forget that many former catholics have had to pay a great cost by following their consciences and separating themselves from Rome. An even greater cost is comprehending loved ones still deceived and so who remain. Also despite what has passed in this thread, there is in reality very little between any of those who have contributed. What the real distinction is has little to do with history or a realisation that Rome, if taken in its fullness of a satanic ambition, in representing “another” Christ. Yet there is a delusion even in that claim, if it amounts to saying that the Roman tradition never even knew Christ in any day. In attendance with satan’ ambitions Rome is indeed presenting “another Christ”. This is not the whole reality however. I understand very well how strange my own efforts must seem. I can scarcely miss the fact. As a matter of simply knowing it brother I really do tremble when I think about this profound reality which is upon us. The new Pope Francis is showing signs of being the most popular man of our age. It is probably unfathomable what a difficult time lies ahead for the body of Christ, where so ever it may be found. Every one of us who are born again of the Spirit of God, even though we are become His children, are yet waiting for the removal of this body of flesh and our adoption as sons of the Living God. Until that day comes we will have to resist the most pernicious evil and subtle deception of all time. Rome has a significant part to play in this terrible deception. It will I believe seem almost impossible to resist this new pope. In the end he is just a part to play and not the play itself. He will be as nothing when his efforts have borne fruit.

None of us see clearly what lies ahead. Not even in the small part we do comprehend can we say for certain, that we have understood fully what we need to understand to be fruitful servants of God and Christ in our day. The most pressing reality lies in what we do commonly understand, which is that we live in the end of the age. Satan, and not Rome has an ambition to that end of days. God and not Rome will permit it, because it is written in the Book. Yet Rome sits like a queen and says I will not see widowhood or the end of days, so great is her pride. The thing which I fear most of all, is that in pressing as I have demonstrated here, some would be encouraged to see Rome as acceptable in some way. No one needs to go to Rome, and we all need to be aware that Rome is coming to us.

Spiritual harlotry began in Israel. This was the first possibility of a chosen people to demonstrate what harlotry before God actually means. Without God' choosing there can be no harlot. If the man asks not the woman to be his wife, she cannot to that man be unfaithful, though she may still become a harlot. Yet if she become as an harlot the Lord Himself may take her and clean her up and make for Himself a bride Before Israel there was no harlotry there was only disobedience and rebellion of the many, and God’ hand of favour on a few who were willing to obedience. When the Lord walked the hills and towns of Judea He was not comprehended, though men everywhere ran after the Lord. Today Israel is cut off. The fullness of the Gentiles is not yet brought into the fold. When the fullness is brought in then the end will come and Israel will itself be restored according to the promise of God to Abraham. Today however not only Rome, but by the end every others vestige of visibility of the Churches will become apostate and will be cast down into harlotry. The hidden church will be a remnant and not the fullness. In that circumstance we would all do well to consider separating ourselves from every outward and inward evidence of deception and unholiness. This will mean all churches in visibility and not simply one Roman church. In such a state of separation we may find that some at least will be asked to lay down their lives completely even unto death for the sake of the many who are caste down in harlotry. If not then countless more souls will perish in eternal damnation from this day alone, than in all the days of men put together.

This is so contrary to God’ will that I cannot even countenance it even in passing. To that end I have sought God’ face from the beginning, as a child, without knowledge and without comprehension why it is that the churches are so divided and what is to be done about it. God’ answer to me is written in the scriptures and confirmed by the Living Spirit of God working in me, as He works equally in all men and women born of His Spirit, for the same purpose of God. The Scriptures teaches us that in the end apostasy and the idolatry of self interest, the love of money as well as false religion, so pleasing to the eye and desirous to the flesh, will by its false prophet seduce all the nations to worship the beast. Yet before this latter blasphemy is revealed there will be a great harvest of souls for God. How will that harvest come if we do not prepare ourselves to labour by first separating ourselves from all that is Babylon, be it a mystery or the certain courses of its streets and open places? Whilst we are separating other will be gathering together. In the end it is those who are gathering together who we will be called to minister Christ to, and who we will need to suffer for, if they are to be saved. They will hate us, even as Israel hated Christ in the end of it, even unto death. They will kill us and we will have to go as lambs to the slaughter. But many will be saved and that is God’ will, that none should perish, but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth. It is why Christ died and it is the fulness of the measure of God’ love.

This following passage of Scripture could be applied to this hour with as equal a measure of truth as it was true in the days of the prophet who wrote it. It concerns harlotry, a lack of wisdom and the folly of youthful ignorance. It speaks symbolically of a people of God foolishly going astray and the cost of declining wisdom and understanding.

Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; And call understanding thy kinswoman: That they may keep thee from the strange woman, From the foreigner that flattereth with her words. For at the window of my house I looked forth through my lattice; And I beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, A young man void of understanding, Passing through the street near her corner; And he went the way to her house, In the twilight, in the evening of the day, In the middle of the night and in the darkness. And, behold, there met him a woman With the attire of a harlot, and wily of heart. She is clamorous and wilful; Her feet abide not in her house: Now she is in the streets, now in the broad places, And lieth in wait at every corner. So she caught him, and kissed him, And with an impudent face she said unto him: Sacrifices of peace-offerings are with me; This day have I paid my vows. Therefore came I forth to meet thee, Diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee. I have spread my couch with carpets of tapestry, With striped cloths of the yarn of Egypt. I have perfumed my bed With myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning; Let us solace ourselves with loves. For the man is not at home; He is gone a long journey: He hath taken a bag of money with him; He will come home at the full moon. With her much fair speech she causeth him to yield; With the flattering of her lips she forceth him along. He goeth after her straightway, As an ox goeth to the slaughter, Or as one in fetters to the correction of the fool; Till an arrow strike through his liver; As a bird hasteth to the snare, And knoweth not that it is for his life. Now therefore, my sons, hearken unto me, And attend to the words of my mouth. Let not thy heart decline to her ways; Go not astray in her paths. For she hath cast down many wounded: Yea, all her slain are a mighty host. Her house is the way to Sheol, Going down to the chambers of death. Doth not wisdom cry, And understanding put forth her voice? On the top of high places by the way, Where the paths meet, she standeth; Beside the gates, at the entry of the city, At the coming in at the doors, she crieth aloud: Unto you, O men, I call; And my voice is to the sons of men. O ye simple, understand prudence; And, ye fools, be of an understanding heart. Hear, for I will speak excellent things; And the opening of my lips shall be right things. For my mouth shall utter truth; And wickedness is an abomination to my lips. All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; There is nothing crooked or perverse in them. They are all plain to him that understandeth, And right to them that find knowledge. Proverbs 7:4-27 to Proverbs 8:1:9

please forgive me (of many things, which i will unspool) this lapse of time in responding....it was only because i just came back online, 2 AM Saturday morning.
you wrote:

Hi Niel

I have to tell you brother that you have this completely wrong. What I wrote here to David was a straight matter of fact. I myself was intending to make the almost exact post last night to try and explain what I was driving at when I speak of "a church" as distinct from "the church". I made the point to apollos regarding not knowing the true meaning of "the body of Christ" and "a church". This was it and not some other. I even thought to explain the very point about Thyatira, Philadelphia but felt restrained in some way, perhaps concern that I would be pushing the whole agenda regarding this business of Roman Catholicism, Apostasy and the end of the age. It is God' calling in my life, I have nothing else which concerns me and I have some very singular revelations and leading on the matter. I have had from the very first day I believed and remain in that mind to this very hour. Nothing in this encouragement to David was directed at anyone. I promise you brother Niel you are often in my mind. I sense a clear love for you, though I can see you, unlike your being unable to see me. You understand this of course. Given the post by David, which I read this morning I thanked the Lord before I thanked David. This does not make what David has shared right or wrong it just means that it represents the same mind of understanding. The Lord bless you Niel and give you peace.

sometimes, my dear Andrew, i cant even believe what comes off this keyboard...my keyboard. i DID have this completely wrong, and i ask your forgiveness. Its not the truth, and i'm just chastened at my "read" of what you meant, and how you feel towards me, your BROTHER....fore if we are NOT brothers, than any profession of following Messiah, any profession of God living IN me, is just so much humbug.

But this Reality of Christ living in me, is NOT humbug. what we have here, in my own soul is a Romans 7 torment. Truly, i am but a cracked clay vessel. Thats not an excuse, or God forbid, any justification as to my underlying bad nature.

what i refer to is, not only what i wrote, which was that we "never made a connection", which was an unloving, harsh, and foolishness statement on my part...but then to read THIS from you:

I promise you brother Niel you are often in my mind. I sense a clear love for you, though I can see you, unlike your being unable to see me. You understand this of course.

reading that i was completely and utterly undone, to think that i caused you any hurt, by writing that, which is not true...further to think, that i am on your mind...me, just an absolute wretch at times...and i show such scorn?

just terrible behavior, and terrible heartspace on my end.

the only comfort i have, is that i know that you forgive me, and such forgiveness, i take not for granted, only knowing that you are a well saved and Godly man.

the ONLY attribute to my credit AT ALL, is that the God Who lives within me, can "steer" this soul to such a degree, that when i go wrong, He, in His Love puts a spirit of both contrition, confession, and utter humility in my soul, so that i CAN abase myself, TURN and right my sails in love, to the one i have offended, hurt or wronged.....immediately upon such dreadful realizations.

please know my heart on this matter. Brother Frank can testify to my normative nature, which is mostly sweet...but as you saw, can be sharp, harsh. at the pains of being repetitive, i'll have faith that you feel in the Holy Spirit both my contrition AND my love for you dear brother, sight unseen.

i certainly have a new Appreciation of that tormented confession of Paul's in Roman's 7...if anything of Profit come of my sin, its that deepened revelation of what that dear man meant.

as far as the roman catholicism, which is the topic...oh dear Andrew...given the hour, and the fact that i felt chastened, yet relieved in Messiah, i'm not going to say anything right now, except that i love you and your spirit, Lord bless you, and i, NOW, have been gifted with peace, Praise be His Name, your brother, neil

Shalom and peace Niel. The only reality we know is Christ. Just that in the end is sufficient. Thank you for your contrition its a good testimony of Christ working in you and I would that you put concern away, even as you have. Sleep well brother.

Proudpapa writes......

"institutionalized religion seems to always be against the Saints, but yet through out history we can see (can we not??)a remnant of Saints both within and without the institutional religious establishment."

Amen brother, this , as anyone who has read anything I have written, has always been my focus.

Brother Andrew writes.........

"Brother Frank your comment about the cost that former Roman Catholics have to bear when they do come out of Rome is a sobering one. Its easy to forget that many former catholics have had to pay a great cost by following their consciences and separating themselves from Rome. An even greater cost is comprehending loved ones still deceived and so who remain. Also despite what has passed in this thread, there is in reality very little between any of those who have contributed. "

Yes and amen brother. I totally agree with this. I just had an e-mail from a dear sister and her anguish over her lost Catholic loved ones is so evident in her writings. She has been forbidden by some of her Catholic relatives from even talking about the Gospel and the others look at her like she has two heads when she speaks about the Lord, this is the general depth of the darkness that veils the hearts and minds of Catholics and it is a tragedy. This , in my opinion, is why it is extremely dangerous to make statements about the Catholic church which may be mis-construed by a people who barely know the basics of what they believe.

AD writes........

"The thing is that these days many Fundamentalist and Evangelical and Charismatic leaders obviously DO feel that the Roman Catholic Church is a true church. And it is bringing about something that is very concerning"

Yes indeed brother, this is exactly spot on. This is the process, the stepping stones if you like, to the great whore church that is beginning to unfold before our eyes. I know that IHOP and many other local denominational churches here in Kansas, the Bible belt, absolutely consider Catholics Christians and of course we have the evangelical pact of the 90s with so many of the leaders of Christianity in this country, signing away any desire to share the faith with Catholics................bro Frank

Mama writes.........

" I only wanted to share b/c this is not just an intellectual discussion. I know a number of friends who God has saved out of the Catholic church....I am SOOOOOO grateful. May He in mercy open the eyes of the blind."

This is exactly why I am involved in this thread.......bro Frank

Brother Andrew writes.........

"Brother Frank your comment about the cost that former Roman Catholics have to bear when they do come out of Rome is a sobering one. Its easy to forget that many former catholics have had to pay a great cost by following their consciences and separating themselves from Rome. An even greater cost is comprehending loved ones still deceived and so who remain. Also despite what has passed in this thread, there is in reality very little between any of those who have contributed. "

Yes and amen brother. I totally agree with this. I just had an e-mail from a dear sister and her anguish over her lost Catholic loved ones is so evident in her writings. She has been forbidden by some of her Catholic relatives from even talking about the Gospel and the others look at her like she has two heads when she speaks about the Lord, this is the general depth of the darkness that veils the hearts and minds of Catholics and it is a tragedy. This , in my opinion, is why it is extremely dangerous to make statements about the Catholic church which may be mis-construed by a people who barely know the basics of what they believe.

Before I explain it Frank, I ask you to explain what you think I shared which necessity required you to instruct me as to a danger. Please read it again Frank. You take the name of a prophet so I assume you have in mind that you are a prophet. As a prophet please explain what I said. Just remember brother I have shared repeatedly that I set snares for mens feet. I have also said plainly that I am against the prophets. I haven't hidden anything which a true prophet could not have easily understood. So lets be plain about this brother. What did I say, and why do you think it is "extremely dangerous" to make statements about the catholic church which "may be misconstrued by a people who barely know the basics of what they believe?"

Who are the people who barely know the basics?

What do they believe?

Just to say it again I believe by a conviction of Almighty God that the Roman Church is a true church. Now the day is arriving when the Bishop of Rome is going to do a work which will cause millions to give thought to their faith, both Roman Catholics and all others who take the name of Christ. Answering that will take much more than simply repeating the words of our forefathers. You have a ministry so you must know what the answer is! You have a web site, have published a book of poems, receive e-mails from grieving brethren, therefore you have by a measure every good reason to know what to think about this business of Rome.

Brother Andrew, a couple of things and then I suggest we let it go or agree to disagree. First, I am not nor ever claimed to be a prophet. I took the name appolus just a few years after I came to the Lord and I took it because he needed to be taught more perfectly. So it seems that assumptions are dangerous and you have assumed in-correctly. Secondly brother, the people who barely know the basics are Catholics. The vast majority of Catholics have no clue as to the doctrines of their own church or to Scripture, so when they hear another affirm that they are a true church, they do not have the benefit of knowledge to discern what is truly meant by that. You have stated many times that you believe that the Roman church is a true church, yes brother, and to that I disagree and I have asked that we agree to disagree. You have your opinion and I have mine now let those who read these posts determine in their own minds and hearts what is truth. I am sure you can agree to that? This is not about you and I as I am sure you will agree, I get the sense that somehow you have taken something personally, and I may be wrong in that, please correct me if I am wrong, but there is nothing personal in this for me............. bro Frank

Hi MJ , I believe that you will be deeply blessed by reading the Pilgrim Church and Foxes book of Martyrs............bro Frank

Elibeth may your gentle words of admonition be taken to heart.

Bear.

Brother Andrew, a couple of things and then I suggest we let it go or agree to disagree. First, I am not nor ever claimed to be a prophet. I took the name appolus just a few years after I came to the Lord and I took it because he needed to be taught more perfectly. So it seems that assumptions are dangerous and you have assumed in-correctly. Secondly brother, the people who barely know the basics are Catholics. The vast majority of Catholics have no clue as to the doctrines of their own church or to Scripture, so when they hear another affirm that they are a true church, they do not have the benefit of knowledge to discern what is truly meant by that. You have stated many times that you believe that the Roman church is a true church, yes brother, and to that I disagree and I have asked that we agree to disagree. You have your opinion and I have mine now let those who read these posts determine in their own minds and hearts what is truth. I am sure you can agree to that? This is not about you and I as I am sure you will agree, I get the sense that somehow you have taken something personally, and I may be wrong in that, please correct me if I am wrong, but there is nothing personal in this for me............. bro Frank

Well Frank no one can argue with a clear statement concerning God’ calling in life and our rewards hereafter, so far as how our spirit is directed by Christ; servant, teacher, prophet or king. We wont all become kings, though no doubt as David Wilkerson once shared the limitation is not with God Himself. Were are not yet all servants either, though by now we ought to be. Neither are we all teachers, nor less still are all prophets. When I read the scriptures I read that Apollos was mighty in the scriptures and an eloquent man, and that he was accurately presenting the things of Jesus. And as you say he was instructed concerning something he did not yet understand and presumably therefore didn’t try to teach it before hand. Perhaps that is why he was said to have been “speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John” and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. The thing which he needed, was not correction, but greater knowledge. The thing he spoke about was not inaccurate, but true. You have shared that there is nothing personal in this for you. I accept that, if this means there is nothing personal against myself. But touching this business about Rome and the end of the age, apostasy, persecution and in finality Israel, at least that of Rome is personal to you.

This is my chief difficulty, not that of whether you are a prophet or not. You have never claimed to be and in fact I have never sensed anything which hinted that you really thought you were a prophet. I have however, seen at least one other, state to you plainly that you have no prophetic authority. This has stuck in my mind since I first read it. But as you say you haven’t claimed to be a prophet. I feel sure that if that brother reads this he will know and he can explain himself if it seems right to do so. This is not personal, nor contentious. Your concern about Rome is entirely based on a personal Catholic upbringing contrasted with a new life in Christ. The detail is taken from listening to others and studying what others have said. Nothing wrong with that. It is sound and reasonable. For myself however, Rome is at the very heart of my concern. My part in Rome was that of a child and it was not Rome, but one of her daughters, the Anglican Church (English Catholic) or the High Church of England. I never did believe in all the rubbish, not even as a child, I always thought about the Father, The Lord Jesus and even the Holy Spirit. No one ever tried to deceive me I was just a little child between the ages of four and ten years. After that I was taken away from it. When I was saved some fourteen years later the Father in heaven brought me back to the very heart of it in an understanding which only a former occultist could reasonably be able to comprehend without having to read a library of books. This has as much to do with all the churches than it has to do with Rome directly even in its darkest hour.

Further more what is coming on North America is distinct to what is coming upon those nations which form the para Mediterranean countries, from north Africa to central and southern Europe, the Balkans, Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Syria, Libya, and finally Israel.

In contrast everything which forms the focus of a few on SermonIndex Forum has to do most intimately with North America. Perceptions about apostasy and in contrast a remnant church set apart, are beneficial to everyone because it concerns everyone. Just as a call to personal sanctification is for everyone. But Rome and what it means in this last day has more to do with Europe and the countries I have listed, than with North America. You are aware of this distinction yourself because you have shared just in the last few days what the characteristic of persecution may be in North America, being that of the apostate evangelical traditions, rather than Rome. The only thing which I could possibly contribute to this site has to do with those churches which are on the very leading edge of apostasy in our day. This has been a real revelation to me in just reading the posts on this site, but the churches which have done most in the last thirty years to serve Rome’ purposes have come out of the pentecostal and charismatic churches of the USA. In this agreement the churches in England have spoon fed a more ancient tradition of apostasy, and re-introduced a form of Catholicism back into the USA in particular of which IHOP is just a shadow. The best expression of this can be understood in the mendicant perception of the christian life. Hail Francis Bishop of Rome to draw the crowds.

This has been outworked by secular as well as spiritual false prophets by increasing effect, both on themselves and those who follow them, being more in agreement with the Jezebelic ambitions manifest in the church in Rome than it is possible to imagine. Not dogmas and traditions, though they inevitably have their part, but the profound and original intention of Satan to reign over men as Christ through another christ. None of this could be simply discerned or made sense of, without an intimate a dreadful understanding of deception and the occult. And this is to say nothing of Israel.

I agree that we can let this fall to the ground. I also realise that this is a discussion forum and not a platform for personal ministries and even less agendas. But seeing that I don’t have a ministry and am able to judge myself regarding the honesty of promoting an agenda, I am able to let everything go if needs be. If you sense that I have taken something personal then it is not because I am offended, rather because I have been very direct. Beyond that I am grateful for this site and yourself as well in helping me to work out my own calling more fully and wouldn’t want to contradict the stated intention of the ministry which is SermonIndex. No doubt this is the Lord’ doing without which I could easily become unbalanced and fail to take account of other peoples own reasons for sharing the things which they do share. What will never be true however, is that profound realities will ever be a matter of opinion.

Brother Andrew writes........

"Your concern about Rome is entirely based on a personal Catholic upbringing contrasted with a new life in Christ. The detail is taken from listening to others and studying what others have said. Nothing wrong with that. It is sound and reasonable."

Brother Andrew, that is not correct, my concerns about Rome are, as you said above, but also Holy Spirit leading and 20 years of study. Now, I am going to be honest, I am not really sure what your last post was saying, perhaps others do but I am just being honest. Church history has been a major part of my study and I am aware of the Catholic church's influence here in the States and abroad. I am also aware of the history of the Catholic church in England and how that changed in Henry 111V period (starting with his father) and his chidren's, which obviously ties into Scottish history with James sixth or James the 1st of England. What I know is this Andrew, you are a good brother in Christ and you say that you have not taken this personally and I stand corrected on that for I sensed that you had, and so I apologize for saying you had. It's not the first disagreement on SI and it certainly wont be the last :) yet, it is how we handle disagreements that is more telling about us. Ultimately good brothers in Christ may have to agree to disagree and that is fine. God bless you brother and I am sure many folks have learned something from this thread............. bro Frank

"I am thinking,...caution as I read this thread.
We know,there is coming a day that there will be great deceivers..."in the last days".
That they will deceive "the very elect,if that were possible"
Note: I am not saying that this man is the one that will be the deceiver....I Do not know. I am saying that we MUST be rooted and grounded in THE TRUTH,...I do believe,or,we too will go along and be deceived. "

Amen sister............bro Frank

I am not really sure what your last post was saying..... apollos

More than twenty four hours have passed. The pot was cast down to the ground and this is the measure of what is left to salvage.

When the day is so far gone and the radiance of the Sun is more red than at the twelfth hour it is easy to forget that the night is nearly upon us. To know that many have fallen away and that the harlot is still in her house, is more pressing in the twilight, in the evening of the day and in the darkness than in the morning light, when she sleeps. It is in the darkness that she waits for the young man to come. Then in the darkness of the night she waits on every corner and in every gate, and as soon as she sees him, she will kiss him and he will be taken.

This following passage of Scripture could be applied to this hour with as equal a measure of truth as it was true in the days of the prophet who wrote it. It concerns harlotry, a lack of wisdom and the folly of youthful ignorance. It speaks symbolically of a people of God foolishly going astray and the cost of declining wisdom and understanding.

Posted on 16/03/2013 02:43 hrs

And he went the way to her house, In the twilight, in the evening of the day, In the middle of the night and in the darkness. And, behold, there met him a woman With the attire of a harlot, and wily of heart. She is clamorous and wilful; Her feet abide not in her house: Now she is in the streets, now in the broad places, And lieth in wait at every corner. So she caught him, and kissed him, And with an impudent face she said unto him: Sacrifices of peace-offerings are with me; This day have I paid my vows. Therefore came I forth to meet thee, Diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee. Proverbs

Posted on 16/03/2013 02:43

Why then do I say that the Roman Church is a true church? The answer is simply because unlike all other heretical cults, Rome, [despite her false doctrines and blasphemies], has that which is central and necessary for a man or woman to believe in and to know the truth concerning Christ.

Posted 14/03/2013 02:42 hrs

In another place......

None of this is to discourage or judge but to say that we need to find God' answer to this day and not labour under the leadings of those brethren who were faithful in their day. They were taken from us suddenly and like the wind we did not comprehend its coming neither did we comprehend that which ws taken. Seeking to understand these things in a day of loss, will not make reasonable or effective the answer for this hour. There are precious truths woven into the garment which is being worn as a garment of praise by very many who sins are a stain and a blot. When [such] brethren see gold threads they believe they have comprehended the whole garment. They look in the mirror of their own imaginations and conceive of their appearance and remember the gold threads which then serve to persuade them that the whole garment is a robe of righteousness. In this they do not acknowledge or confess that its course interior irritates their bodies and sets there teeth on edge. They continuously fall in sin, then the wicked one by the hand of the elect reaches out and gives an inner garment which protects against irritation and in secrecy of its adornment proves more deceptive than even the outer garment which can easily be comprehended to the one who looks straight at it and will not wear it.

Posted on 27/02/2013 06:30 hrs in another thread

The only thing which I could possibly contribute to this site has to do with those churches which are on the very leading edge of apostasy in our day. This has been a real revelation to me in just reading the posts on this site, but the churches which have done most in the last thirty years to serve Rome’ purposes have come out of the pentecostal and charismatic churches of the USA

Posted on 17/03/2013 16:50 hrs

Hail Francis Bishop of Rome to draw the crowds.

This has been outworked by secular as well as spiritual false prophets by increasing effect, both on themselves and those who follow them, being more in agreement with the Jezebelic ambitions manifest in the church in Rome than it is possible to imagine. Not dogmas and traditions, though they inevitably have their part, but the profound and original intention of Satan to reign over men as Christ through another christ. None of this could be simply discerned or made sense of, without an intimate and dreadful understanding of deception of the occult. And this is to say nothing of Israel.

Posted on 17/03/2013 16:50 hrs

In another place.....

The day of the fullness of apostasy will come. It is written and it cannot be spoken against as though to set it aside. Just as in the day of Jeremiah, the trumpet call is to repentance, but it is not a cry unto a good effect, but a final sober presentation of the condition of the people of God. In the end the trumpet is set a side and the cry becomes "captivity for the people of God". This hour is almost upon us and we would be better prepared to comprehend the need which the Father has set before us to go into captivity without grumbling or seeking to flee to another place. If God has made us a separate people then it ought to be understood by our manner and conduct, by speech and by service. Otherwise we are simply deluding ourselves with doctrines and have no true mind to suffer at all. What man seeing his brother being taken into captivity and comprehending that he is the stronger and more able, will not flee after him and demand to be taken also, that he might serve his brother? The most diabolic failure of this day in which we live is a complete failure to know who is our true brother in Christ, and many who have believed, are being pressed into pride and spiritual delusions which go beyond what was necessary for their deliverance.

Posted on 27/02/2013 06:30 hrs in another thread.

Rome is just the mother, the whole field is filled with her children as well. There are wheat and tears. They all concern God.

We ought not to confuse an ability to challenge doctrines with true discernment. They are not the same thing at all. If that is all we have we will be no better than our weaker brethren who have been drawn in. Neither despise the grace of God which is given because it is undeserved and no man is worthy of the shed blood of Christ. If our weaker brother has fallen then let us ask God how to raise him up and not to expose him to the evil one, but rather how to expose him to Christ Himself, by learning how to preach Christ ourselves. By that means alone will deliverance come and a harvest be brought unto God, regardless of the age. Those who take the name of Christ, yet have not truly believed and repented, are standing in the same ground as are those who have truly believed and repented. They are drawing on the same nutrient of life. They are in all things outward even as we are, yet they are either perishing or else have fallen away. If the whole harvest hears the word of God which is effectual in this day as it was in every day of the apostles even until this very hour, they are the more positioned to comprehend what it is that they have not understood and will by God' grace repent themselves. Then they too will bear fruit according to the measure of God.

Posted on 27/02/2013 06:30 hrs in another thread.

I believe this sums up the substance of what is being said, without any reference to Rome, yet it includes Rome and every apostate church be it a tiny fellowship hidden in the outer parts or a harlot sitting astride a beast of destruction in full visibility.

It would appear that the pieces are become the full pot! I am not looking for your agreement brother. When men begin to agree with me I usually depart.