Home Fellowship Help

Dear brother,

One of the idea's behind Gospel fellowships is that passionate people, people who love the Lord and hunger for His presence and genuine fellowship would come together for that, fellowship. I think there is such a false view of what fellowship is because for years in many institutional churches, gatherings were something formed as a ministry and then expected to be " successful," meaning growing numbers. Yet, the very essence of fellowship, is just even two or three people gathering to talk about the passion of their lives, Jesus and how He is moving and leading and guiding them. Out of the abundance of our hearts our mouths speak. In the Gospel fellowships that we envision, there will be brothers who will go out and visit with different groups and give some guidance as to these meetings, but most importantly, these groups will be lead by the Holy Spirit. I and another brother will be holding some meetings in July in OK and we will be testing out some meetings to see how they will work practically. Loosely, we will have some subjects that we will talk about, which will be known in advance. Brothers and sisters will be encouraged to study and pray and read the Word to see if the Lord would not speak to them. At these gatherings we will start of the discussions and see where they lead. At appropriate times, we will worship as felt led by the Lord, then pray perhaps, then back to discussions. In the midst of these " discussions,' people will testify of the truths they have learned in their lives through their walk and share. There will be some leadership in order to keep roughly to the discussion at hand. We are looking for something organic. Over-arching all of these discussions will be the context of the times in which we live and how the Lord is calling on His remnant people to gather together for fellowship and all the more as we see that day approach. I hope that was of some help brother, I am sure Greg will also reply. We do have a good brother down there in Arkansas, in Little Rock, brother Blaine...............bro Frank

I hope this helps in understanding the spirit behind the Gospel Fellowship initiative as I understand it, which some brethren have shared from their hearts in other posts over the last year.

I believe at the heart of this move of the Lord lies three things.

The first has to do with seeking to address a specific issue of the disintegration of liberties in North America for those believers who are truly desirous to live a holy and sanctified life before the Lord, without hinderance or compulsion from authorities other than the Lord. It amounts to a kind of "being prepared" for North Americans.

The second is more specifically an issue of facilitating the fellowship of like minded believers, based on a true godly desire for personal sanctification before the Lord. Not always an easy thing to achieve even when we desire it without the support and ministry of likeminded brethren.

The third is a matter of obedience and faithfully doing that which is on the hearts of a few brethren according to the Lord.

Of course I cannot say this is true. I have no part to say it. I can only share that I believe it is true. I am personally aware why this move of the Lord is becoming visible, as were many believers from every age, who found themselves grieved by the difficulties which they faced in churches which increasingly are driven by too many motives "not of the Lord". This was not always judgementalism in the past, but simple reality in many many places. Today is no different, save for the hour.

There are inherent dangers in any gathering of believers. Not least any one individual having too much influence. Yet there is also a clear need to have elders and ministers of the word of Christ. As long as there is a least one or two brethren who put the well being of the flock before themselves I have no doubt that any gathering of believers who truly want to know Christ in the midst will be blessed and grow in faith and faithfulness. Though it may be foolish to say it, if I lived in North America I would have no hesitation to join in this move of God. In the spirit I really do join in so real does it seem to me, in the flesh alas I live in England.

The difficulties which will come have all to be worked out, and the Lord is to be trusted to make His church according to His own desire. In that there must be some clear guidance from those who have the burden, or how else can anyone serve the Lord, if they do not in fact serve the Lord according to their calling and conscience. Beyond that there is always an opportunity to minister to one another with a song, an encouragement or any number of other ways appointed by the Holy Spirit to make us in visibility one body, even as we are in spirit, one body also. Whether there is sufficient time for a new denomination! I rather doubt that no matter how ill or well intentioned we may be.

i ask that "really"? in meekness, as you wrote bro. David:

My heart sinks when I read these things

David

why?....again, i 'ask' that in a gentle voice.

i'm not firsthand...meaning i'm not in France, but i have heard the Witness and ekklesia in France has grown cold, would to God the brethern in France, hearts aflame with Love of Messiah, come together to worship in spirit and truth outside of any ecclesiastical institutional bondage.

that said, if you in a Church/Ekklesia that is blooming Alive with God the Holy Spirit, Jesus as the Pastor....stay! because you are a blessing to your brothers and sisters there.

and yes! there is always the threat of the flesh predominating and forming YET another "denomination"...where man's innate urges even in love is for hierachy, and domination.

In his book "Life Together", Bonhoeffer delineates the difference between "human" love, with its "dark turbid urges"...and Divine Love...it starts on page 30 i believe. Dietrich was given a mighty Revelation as to that distinction.

The "Moravians", in the begginging at Hernhutt, put an empty chair around the table they sat at, and humbly prayed and implored the Lord Jesus Christ to Pastor their gathering.

i myself was blessed enough that JUST ONCE, a house fellowship, i had love bonds to, another brother and myself were able to .........pray and ask Jesus to Pastor ths gathering.

long story....maybe short(smile), this brother and his family had been called by the Lord to the mission field in the South Pacific, and my heart was rended, but His Will be done.....the Tuesday before this house gathering, Jesus impressed upon my heart, that it would be good and right for me to wash my brothers feet, when so led that Lord's Day.

there was a pastor, seminary trained, a dear brother, who was the nominal "head" of this gathering...but very much....let me put it this way, when i told him that The Holy Spirit had impressed on my heart to wash our brothers feet before we sent this dear family off?.....his instant response was that he was going prepare a teaching on foot washing...and when i conveyed this to my brother who was leaving, our hearts broke...simply because, even though i had the leading from the Holy Spirit (and did purchase a large paint basin, along with two pitchers for warm water, fragrant liquid soaps, and a dozen new cotton towels)...once this meeting convened, .....neither my brother or i were CERTAIN, that we would be CALLED then, that day....to engage in this ordinance......God give me the Leading before, but we both now had some vexation, because our hearts were canted towards WHERE THE HOLY SPIRIT led....not man...meaning we didnt even KNOW if i would wash his feet, but now with that SET as part of the "plan".....it took God OUT of the mix, and we were grieved.

But here's how the Lord works...that Saturday afternoon, and night, a TREMENDOUS rainstorm swept thru this exurban Southern california canyon, and just wreaked havoc, the hills are washing down, a dry creekbed turns into a RAGING torrent..and on Sunday morning, it was STILL going...i made my way the mile towards the Godly widows house, (She is now with the Lord), my heart was sinking because i thought, understandly, few people would be there.....oh, how wrong i was. i parked at Miriams, cars all around, with my foot washing "kit", and was shocked to see 25 saints packed into mothers Miriams living room....except for one person........the pastor, who was going to "teach and preach" about footwashing:

here are the actual articles on what happened:(one is a picture and article, the other just a picture)

http://www.malibutimes.com/news/article_e6282c70-bb69-5c53-b667-7920a324d3b0.html

http://www.vortex.com/bp/topanga-rock.jpg

a 300 ton...yes...a 300 ton boulder feel onto the only way into the canyon....God prevented the pastor from attending. We had no knowledge of this at the time....Then the Holy Spirit spoke to me and my brother, and based upon the simple ecclesiology of Paul's in his First Epistle to the Cornthians, chapter 14, verses 26 thru 33:

"What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace".

after i read this to the saints, i was Led to do as what those dear saints in Hernhutt, did centuries before...in one accord, we asked Jesus if He could please Pastor this meeting....and you know what?

Glory to God, Jesus came down in Power...the meeting swept onto victory, heart testmonies, praise Reports, Verses of Scripture shared, hymns and songs sung together out of heart memory, tears of repentance, tears of joy....there was NO DISORDER!....none, God the Holy Spirit was leading this meeting...and then after....i dont even remember what the time was, this meeting swept on....there was NO anxious looking at the clock!....i could hear that Small Still Voice saying, "ask him"...i turned to my brother.....eyes brimming with tears, i thought i was caught up in Heaven, asking him, "brother, may i wash your feet?"....and It started....25 people, evenly divided, men to women...wordlessly begin to wash each others feet....and God made THIS right as well...Nobody HUMAN had to say, "men wash men's feet, women wash women's feet......BECAUSE the Holy Spirit told us all! i speak the truth in Christ....you could hear people weeping...(i'm close to tears right now, just remembering this Wonderful Day)

then, after everybody had washed each others feet, we gathered for a closing prayer, hugged, and had a wonderful pot luck love feast,.....the saints stayed till i think 6, it was dark out...nobody wanted to leave.....the Glory of God was that Thick in that dear house.

there is a sad antedote buried in that news article.....i dont even want to talk about it...except to say the devil comes to kill and destroy, and is ruthless, but we know how the story unfolds.

one last thing dear brother...lets say a house fellowship, grew, and maybe needed a small storefront?...as the Lord leads me, the only "sign" on that storefront would be the Name at which every knee shall bow......"JESUS"......that is IT....and His Name is wholly Sufficient, just as the Blood is Wholly Sufficient to cleanse ALL sin...i concur wholeheartedly....no more 'denominations" or "party/sectarian" spirit.....and i havent read "Gospel Fellowships" yet....but as the Lord leds....no more video cameras "taping"...no more audio devices, "taping"....all that does is play into the human spirit performing...the flesh being glorified...we have ENOUGH OF THAT! in this day and age.

i praise God and the Lord Jesus Christ, that ...that meeting i just testified to, lives only in my heart,amen and Praise be to God!!!! neil

Well said brother Andrew. I think you have caught the vision behind what we seek to do very well. We have zero intention of creating another denomination, quite the opposite in fact. Also, this is to reflect the times in which we live as we consider this to be the end of ages, whether that is 10 years or 100 years, it is still in the context of the end of ages. Although I personally feel there is a very real possibility that these things will come to pass in our life time and we are beginning to many things coming to pass in our times.

Religious freedoms in America could very quickly slip away and there has to be a vehicle by which we can meet. And actually, it is not just in America. Europe and Britain are heading the same way. Just the gay marriage issue alone could herald a very real start to a restriction of our ability to gather in traditional churches. The denominational system has to a very great extent, " dumbed," down the brothers and sisters. Every week people gather and are spectators rather than participants. Their studying is done for them. Their worship is done by professional worship leaders. Their is a program for every conceivable need. This organic movement seeks to give believers a venue in which to meet. It will allow them to study and participate in gatherings. God speaks to His people and by blindly following this one man system we have been robbed of a wealth of insight and wisdom and testimony. The gathering, the called out ones, is a Body. And every part of the Body is necessary and all the more so now as we see that day approach. God has a remnant people and God is calling them..............bro Frank

David writes.........

'If the Lord gathers his saints together at South Arkansas,
or any other place, He is Head of the church there and the
members should by the Holy Spirit submit to Him, without
unbdue influence or interference from outside. It is the measure ofthis outside influence which will determine whether it becomes a denomination or a true local church. "

Amen brother David. There is no desire amongst us to have a national leadership. It is servant hearts we seek to give some help and guidance..........bro Frank

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I was busy serving at the recent Zac Poonen conference in Atlanta where the local church we are attending hosted the event. It was a blessed time and brother Zac shared so many great burdens on how a true body of Christ is formed in a local area. We received much revelation and truth from this time and God willing will be encouraged to seek more from the Lord in this vien.

Also has been said in this thread about what Gospel Fellowships is. I want to clarify things so people do not mis-understand this. Though we agree with brother Frank that some meetings of the saints it can be profitable to have all share as they are led, this in no way is the model for Gospel Fellowships as a whole. We actually do not want to have really any model outside the book of Acts primarily and the epistles. We see a few verses speaking of the coporate body sharing all a word, but we also see verses about eldership and preaching and the need for teachers, prophets who will share messages more in assemblies then other saints.

True leadership is always greatly needed and we are not promoting an anti-leadership. Also in many cases there will be one brother who is gifted as a leader in a house church and he will raise up other disciples and leaders. Plurality of elders is benifical and the end goal in a local church but if a fellowship does not have mature brothers who are qualified for this that is fine. Even if there are no qualified reconized leaders the body can still function greatly but it is God's will for elders to be reconized and respected in the body, for this is God's economy to grow His body.

On a spiritual level the reason for Gospel Fellowships is primarily that Jesus Christ would be honored as head of the Church. Fellowship is good and we desire to see brethren connect to have true fellowship but this is not the main goal of Gospel Fellowships nor the Church. The main goal is to have Fellowship with Jesus Christ and to glorify Him.

Sanctifcation, growing in Christ-likeness, fellowship, praying for outpouring of God's Spirit in the midst, and other things are by-products of coming together to allow Christ to be head of the assembly. Jesus Christ must be emphazed,, adored and allowed to lead the group.

It is Christ's will to give gifts to the body as well as servant leaders, so we must trust and look to Him.

As believers gather from the encourgement of the Gospel Fellowships Principles free ebook: www.gospelfellowships.net they will meet in many different ways, different venues. Not all the gatherings will be churches they will simply be times of fellowship for saints but a time to focus on the Lordship of Jesus Christ over His body. In this atmosphere God is able to birth a manifestation of the body of Christ in an area and reconize it as a functioning local church. All true believers are part of the universal body of Christ but it is God's desire to see local manifestations of this.

The need is to un-focus on men who have even great giftings and to put more focus on Jesus Christ the living person.

So the fellowships are all that the brothers mentioned in the past posts and more, as God is going to grow some gatherings into vital represenations of His body on the earth as salt and light for the world to see.

Lastly, the movement is not anti-denomination or anti-church building, we just feel the call of the Lord to gather outside denominations where believers from many of these will meet and most groups at least to start with will not leave their local churches they are involved in. We must only as God leads us, leave our current local church.

Gospel Fellowships is a burden that many share and will share, for it is on God's heart to see local gatherings of believers that actively proclaim the headship of Jesus Christ over His Church. This is not an attempt to start a denomination but rather to build true unity amongst brethren in many of them.

Other spiritual aspects of the book which are important is the encouragement from underground churches around the world and also to prepare the body of Christ for endtimes persecution that will be world-wide.

I also wanted to respond to the brother that stated that the Greenock conference was where this burden was promoted and begun. We did not in anyway have these burdens during that time. That wonderful conference was a pleading and praying for revival in the local churches in that area and amongst the lost.

The teaching given by Ron Bailey at that conference spoke of a revival back to the biblical church pattern of autonomous fellowships, we believe this is important but that session was not the burden of the entire event.

But we do believe those prayers and well as the prayers of the saints for many years are coming more to fruition to see godly gatherings of believers where Christ is honored as Lord.

I trust that helps clarify things.

Amen sister, when the true body of Christ meets in a biblical way each member is honored and all are encouraged and grow in their giftings to full maturity. That is the purpose of leaders to help others grow into full maturity in Christ.

Hi MJ, yes indeed, that is wonderful insight from the mouth of a child and hits the nail on the head. Just for clarification, Gospel Fellowships is very much brother Greg Gordons's ministry. The kind of meetings I have talked about on this thread is the kind of meetings brother Brian Long and I are attempting to put together. We are excited about the prospect that the Body of Christ once more has a voice. The day of a single personality leading movements, in our opinion is over. We seek, as a remnant movement, that men with no names, men who seek to serve rather than dictate how ministries should work ( that is the work of the Holy Spirit) would be used of the Lord. We believe that the Lord Jesus must have the pre-emminance in all that we do...........bro Frank

Brother,

Very well said. I agree 100% with everything shared and you stated it much clearer then I attempted to do so. What I would add is that though it is not imperative to have apostolic oversight but as a brother is gifted in this it really does help and strengthen small bodies of Christ to respect this gift and submit to such a brother if available.

I see this working very well in the CFC church movement where brother Zac is looked to as an apostle gifting but each body is autonomous and able to function independent. But for certain issues or just as the brother travels they can have him come to share. Perhaps it might be more healthy to have a few brothers who are very mature such as brother Zac in the CFC movement to do so but in this case there is just one brother.

In the book of acts we had many apostles yet paul was looked to more amongst the gentile churches as was timothy, silvanous, appolus and other apostles.

Brother Travis writes.........

"But God has ordained leadership. God has set in the body four or five, depending on your perspective, ministry gifts whose focus is primarily upon maturing the body. These function as de facto leadership due to their calling. These are not positions granted by man, but rather ordained by God and recognized by other mature leaders who give public recognition. He has also ordained that there be bishops or elders to oversee the body. (Bishop and Elder are one and the same office as is made clear in Titus 1:5-7 and in Acts 20:17-28.) These overseers are charged with a great responsibility, and they can desire this office. They are not necessarily one of the four/five ministry gifts, nor are the ministry gifts necessarily elders.I think this leadership will naturally "rise to the top" so to speak in home fellowships. We can all readily recognize the calling on man's life and will naturally submit to that calling to one degree or another. But leadership is never there to "lord it over" any group. They are there to help feed, guide, and grow the members of the group in the same manner as Christ, the head of the church, gave Himself for His body and has the good of His body as His motivation."

This is the key thinking on this subject brother and it is what frightens a lot of folks the most, especially those who have a one man teaches all set up, where one man is lifted up. "But God has ordained leadership. God has set in the body four or five, depending on your perspective, ministry gifts whose focus is primarily upon maturing the body." Amen brother. I wonder if there is a single well known ministry out there where four or five men are equally known? David Wilkerson and Carter Conlon come to mind but of course that is only two and many folks, even to this day do not know who Carter Conlon is. I think most men want ownership over what they perceive to be theirs and I think God gives it to them every time. He allows Himself to be robbed but leaves the men to their own devices.........bro Frank

Hello proudpapa I would like to share something with you, understanding very well your concern. What follows is a true account and accurate. It is a truly sad account, yet in it, it is possible to understand the mercy of the Lord. It also explains why in my own understanding apostolic and prophetic ministry is utterly essential and not an optional extra.

More fearful than the man who stumbles himself and disappoints others, is the man who lords it over the flock.

More fearful than the man who lords it over the flock, is the man who abuses the flock.

More fearful than the man who abuses the flock, is the man who leads the flock and does not discern the wolf.

I find it interesting that some speak of the apostle by name and others by nature.

In the early 1990’s I was introduced to an elderly brother who was directly involved in the Lewis Revival in the Outer Hebrides. He came to my house in Nis, with an unspoken possibility, that due to his years in ministry in an Islamic Country, he might have a lead in a work in Nis. After the meeting I was unwilling to open the door to him, and actually felt led to set a gate against both him and all others coming into the district. I asked the Lord to bring to my attention anyone coming in His name, so that I might become aware of them.

Eight years later having left the Island, I revisited and was fellowshipping with an elder of a small house church in Arnol. He shared with me concerning a man who had come to Lewis after I had left and had been introduced to the house fellowship. As soon as I heard this man’ description I was immediately concerned and understood that he was a sorcerer. At the time this was shared with me the man, having quickly taken a leading role, had gone on mission to Spain with other members of the fellowship, and so was not on the Island at that time. I tried to share as best I could my concern, but was unsuccessful. When I returned to England and my own family, I shared with my wife that a former Satanist had come into the fellowship in Arnol and was now about some wicked purpose or other in Spain.

On my visit to Lewis last year, which I shared in a post here on SI, I discovered that the man had so increased his visibility by his activities that others had finally realised that he was false. I also learned that one of the elders had drowned in the sea, along with his youngest son, Daniel, in sight of his own house. Just a few weeks before this happened the elder who had shared with me on my first return visit, had finally found the words and the power to confront this man in the meeting. He did this by simply reading from Revelations concerning the prophetess Jezebel in the church at Thyatira. This dear brother told me that as he spoke he was completely full of fear and was physically shaking. Then after he finished a release came and the man looked at him and said “must I now return to the black mass?” The elder shared with me that he realised immediately that the man was in reality powerless, and for a moment said to himself, “is that all the power you have?”

The Sobering Fact:

The man who brought the Satanist to the Island and introduced him to the fellowship was the very same elderly brother who sat in my kitchen in the 1990’ and who, although I couldn’t understand it, I was unable to come under. This brother had been directly involved in the Lewis Revival as a boy. Duncan Campbell, some 15 years after the revival came to the church in which the “boy”, now a minister in main land Scotland and a member of a Mission Society, saying to him, “why are you here? You should be on the mission field”. He took the encouragement and changed missionary fields, becoming a missionary in The Yemen, before returning to Lewis, where I first met him in my house as we discussed his possible involvement in the work in Nis in the early 1990’s.

How is it possible for a man, who when he was just a fifteen year old boy was an instrument of prayer to break the opposition of the men of Bragar; men who withstood the work of God in the Lewis Revival, and fail to discern a former Satanist who had become so false that he knew only how to labour as a sorcerer, and knew not how to labour in the spirit?

I don’t have an answer to that question from the standpoint of this dear elderly brother who was a gentle godly man. On the other hand I do understand very clearly how the sorcerer made a cover for himself and in its countenance, sneaked into the assembly of God’ people; stealing another mans wife, not by reason of adultery of the flesh, but by the woman falling into adultery of the spirit with a wicked man and thereby entering into an occult agreement. I understand that the brother who drowned in the sea with his last born son, was innocent, and that his wife, though an instrument, was herself deceived.

Having had these things witnessed to me first hand just last year, I asked to meet the sister who had come under a deception which had cost her her husband and last born child. She knew me from my time on the Island and remembered very well the struggle which existed between us because of her inclination, which was visible long before the wicked man was ever known. I looked at her and saw such a brokenness and a humility that I nearly began to cry, I realised that all that thing which stood between us in the past had gone and she was no longer provoked. Her faith had been strengthened and although she did not fully comprehend her part in all of this, she nevertheless was repentant and continued to cling to the Lord.

The Meaning:

There is a profound need for apostolic ministry, there is a profound need for the prophetic ministry, subject to the apostles leading and in service to the body. Without it wolves come in, as Paul the apostle spoke concerning the first churches, that when he had left, wolves would come in and devour the flock. My own conviction is really that simple, and I truly believe and have reason to hope that such apostolic men as well as those who labour with them will be given to the body once again. Not a counterfeit, or wrong leading, but men who are truly in apostolic authority and yet who are visibly servants and not lords. It isn’t possible to dispense with the order which Christ has made regarding His church and the means by which Christ Himself labours to build His body. Such good and sound men, when they appear will be a gift to the body and a source of great comfort and protection. They will also chase away the wolf and make ruin of him. When we have learned how to trust the Lord and walk faithfully and soundly ourselves, no doubt, given the lateness of the hour, the outcome will be the appearing of the Lord.

I hope this witness does not offend anyone or be misunderstood.

I would like to see a local fellowship in which the body whould be willing to let go and allow God to activate and demonstrate all of the supernatural gifts within the body , instead of always redefining and explaining away the gifts so as to justify our lack of all of these gifts.

Maybe being open to a true apostolic ministry would be a good start.

In the 80's, a brother named Raj Samuels from India came to Leicester and preached at the AOG where I fellowshipped at the time. I was impressed by his ministry and conduct and had no concern over him. I thought of him almost immediately as though he had an apostolic ministry. Some weeks later he turned up at an outreach event in the city and it became clear that other brethren in the outreach similarly had a mind to submit to his maturity and calling. After some weeks Raj started a new fellowship at the request of four or five brethren who were discouraged by what was happening in their various churches. I had made no approach to Raj but did go along to the start of this "new" work. For me the one criteria I needed to see, despite my thoughts, was evidence of an apostolic ministry. Perhaps I was too young in the Lord or perhaps I just didn't have a right attitude in thinking that an apostle ought to have a real outworking of power in their lives which was visible in the sense that such an outworking would produce a real opportunity for those who came under it, to grow spiritually in obedience and a godly walk. Sadly I just didn't see it in Raj, which was a little confusing, but I accepted that I was probably in the wrong anyway and so moved away from that particular effort. In the end it produced nothing of substance.

Since then I have always thought about what the apostolic ministry today would look like and sound like. I still don't really have a clear view of that, but I am absolutely certain of one thing. He must be a truly godly man, having victory over the power of sin and he must be able to speak and minister with real authority. The one thing which would serve the purposes of Christ in men' lives would be for us to overcome the power of sin in our own life, and thereby become more profitable to the Lord. If we have life we cant receive more than we have already. I accept that from time to time the Father may well give us personal reasons and desires which take us momentarily into a fuller realisation of what is possible. But this seems to be just that, a possibility. The outcome or fruit of reality will in the end be measured by personal holiness and sanctification of our very bodies and souls.

Nothing stirs the spirit more than when one catches sight of the power of God working through the preaching of the gospel and seeing men and women being soundly and convincingly saved. Translate that back to ones self and it looks like being on the receiving end of an apostolic ministry, only now its personal. That only makes sense in the spirit. The natural man may accent to it rationally but he will always fail to realise it. But in the spirit there is always a yes and amen; a willingness and a revelation that it is both possible and desirable to live a godly obedient and victorious life for Christ. The apostle for me would have to be such a man that he could take hold of me through Christ working in Him, and require me to obey Christ more fully with a measure of that same power which is evident when we preach Christ fully to the lost. God help Him however if he tried to deceive me. Not only would he not succeed it would cost him. You can see that this is a problem for me personally, and I feel sure it is a problem for others as well for all sorts of similar and other reasons.

I have to be honest and say I have not found such a man in nearly thirty years, even though I have desired such a gift from the Lord. In the end it has come down to seeking the Lord in the spirit and dealing with sin through the more difficult process of falling and walking, confessing and turning away from it.

I said I have a reason to hope that one day the Lord would raise up and give as gifts such men to the body once again. This is because I can really see the possibility of it, as well as the need for it. In that hope I have prayed for the Lord to do it for virtually the whole of the time I have been saved. I began asking about the condition of the churches virtually from the moment I first believed. Several times the Lord Has promised me that He is going to provide an answer for the day we live in. Yet at the same time as these promises come to mind I realise that unless I am obedient as well I will fall well short of where the Lord would have me to be in this end of days.

Apart from the possibility of such brethren just turning up out of the dust of the dessert, I rather think that we ourselves had better make ourselves ready if any one of us are going to see the full outworking of God' calling in our own lives. What could possibly be more wonderful than to be truly useful to Christ in serving others with real evidence of Godly fruit. This sounds a little naive perhaps because it is already clear that we are called severally according to God and we don't have the liberty to tell God what we are. We have to work it out, and in that every kind of difficulty will be apparent from being hated to being held aloft. God forbid that we should ever be held aloft. It is utterly appalling and completely destructive to real Godliness. On that ground alone I would reject any man who claimed to be an apostle, unless he rejected the praise clearly and effectually.

What I would add is that though it is not imperative to have apostolic oversight but as a brother is gifted in this it really does help and strengthen small bodies of Christ to respect this gift and submit to such a brother if available Greg Gordon. SermonIndex

My own conviction is really that simple, and I truly believe and have reason to hope that such apostolic men as well as those who labour with them will be given to the body once again. Not a counterfeit, or wrong leading, but men who are truly in apostolic authority and yet who are visibly servants and not lords. It isn’t possible to dispense with the order which Christ has made regarding His church and the means by which Christ Himself labours to build His body. Such good and sound men, when they appear will be a gift to the body and a source of great comfort and protection. They will also chase away the wolf and make ruin of him. amrkelly

My only concern is the hierarchical structure that has been given to the gifts by groups such as the modern day Apostolic / Prophetic movement. I see these gifts as differing in function. Each is unique. Those who God has gifted as apostles establish, set in order, and are often found in a fatherly role where local fellowships are concerned. twayneb

I would add that when the apostle Paul was saying his good-byes to the elders of Ephesus he warned them that after his departure two things would happen: 

1. Grievous wolves would enter in, not sparing the flock;

2. Of their own selves men would arise speaking perverse things and seeking to draw people after them. 

But Paul didn't reassure them by saying he'd see to it that another apostle was sent their way to watch over them.

What he did say was this:

"And now brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified" (Act 20.32).

Wow, here's this precious little flock, and you are leaving it in the hands of God, and the word of His grace, Paul? Don't you think that's a little risky? Can't you make an arrangement that's a little more secure?

...What do you know that we don't, Paul? ADisciple

This is an interesting chronology of posts that for sure. Hope no one is offended but for the sake of understanding I want to give each of these four quotes a descriptive tag. [1] Availability. [2] Reasonable Hope. [3] Functionality, and [4] Absent

Number one speaks of geographical availability. So for example the “churches in Asia” being several could not physically experience the presence of the same man simultaneously. Paul may well have been able to be with the Corinthian Church in spirit when he put a man out of the church, in the spirit, telling the Corinthians to do so physically the very next time they met. Yet he clearly couldn’t have been in two places at once in his physical body. Neither can an apostle now. Even less if there is no apostolic worker at all.

Number two speaks of a hope that apostles such as the early apostles would be [found] given to the body [churches] once again to a good effect. Not least dealing with wolves and false teachers.

Number three speaks of ministerial characteristics, not least the apostle being a “father” of sorts, as was Paul to Timothy, a true father in the faith. It speaks of resisting governmental notions of an apostle in the local church.

Number four speaks of an absence of apostolic physical presence and a trusting in God for the administration and function of the local church through the body variously by grace, and the local elders by governance.

Hope I got this right. If not please say it as plainly if the need to say it arises.

There is then the question of numbers of apostles. These will range from a possible none to a likely many. None if they have all left the churches, and many if you take account of the apostles called “Joe”. The none just don’t exist because they have left and the ones called “Joe” are many, vying for the title apostle, both male and female, all of whom just want governmental power over many local churches in a given geography. Or there is just one presently recognised by a few, and one thought to have been recognised by myself, but who proved to be a disappointment. None of this is surprising really because each perception or conviction is grounded in personal experience in our own day, and not simply an underlying set of thoughts on what the scriptures show us about the apostolic churches.

What this tells me is that there are two realities at work here. One has to do with scripture and the apostles as well as the churches in scripture, and the other has to do with the here and now. If we disregard scripture and focus on the here an now we will interpret scripture from the standpoint of the here and now, and miss the fuller reality of scripture. The other is that if we focus on the scripture we will interpret the here and now from scripture, and disregard what is real now. It will also lead to what we have today in the churches. Mad men who claim to be apostles and prophets but are really false and deluded, as well as denominations and geographical catholicism in many places.

Sorry if that all sounds a bit confusing but I really felt the need to add it all up.

Perhaps one explanation to all of this is that we have the scripture in the hear and now. I don’t doubt that as many men as there are so are there as many thoughts on any given subject if we press the idea of personal knowledge and experience to its fullest conclusion.

I have given some thought in the last hour or so, as I have written this post to the question of Paul praying for the church of Ephesus. I notice that Paul in around 63 AD urged Timothy to “remain” in Ephesus (1 Tim 1:3), this is at least five years after Paul warned the Ephesians saying “after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them” (Acts 20:29-30). This warning was in 57AD. I also see that in 1 Timothy chapter four Paul also tells Timothy that “the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron...........In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following” (1 Tim 4:1-6). We can see that all of these warnings and instructions to Timothy, including 1 Timothy 3:1-13 (qualification of Elders), 1 Timothy 1:19; Titus 1:9; 1 Timothy 5:17-21 (Purpose of Elders) and 1 Timothy 4:13, 14 (The need for Accuracy) all paid off, because in Revelations we read that the Ephesus Church in 96AD was still managing to specifically resist false prophets and false teachers (Revelation 2:1-7).

I also find it interesting that Paul didn’t share with the Ephesians in the locality of Ephesus, but from Miletus about sixty three miles due south. Timothy was not a member of the local church at Ephesus, he was part of Paul’ apostolic team, and although he was instructed to remain in Ephesus in 63AD by Paul from prison, Timothy was originally a member of the church in Derbe (Acts 16:1). That Timothy was a member of the apostolic ministry is evident in the fact that he was sent to the churches of the Corinthians (4:7), Philippians (2:19), and Thessalonica (1 3:3).

What this tells me is that although Paul committed the Ephesian Elders to “God and to the word of His grace” it was the word of His grace being taught and preached through Timothy. In fact when we read in Paul’ letter to Timothy in 63AD what the substance of his warnings to the Ephesian Elders in 57AD was and being; “As I exhorted thee to tarry at Ephesus, when I was going into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge certain men not to teach a different doctrine neither to give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questionings, rather than a dispensation of God which is in faith; so do I now. But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and faith unfeigned: from which things some having swerved have turned aside unto vain talking” (1 Tim 1:3-6), we see what kind of men who would “arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them”. The wolves on the other hand were from outside the flock and may be the false apostles spoken of in Revelations, which the Ephesians we commended for having resisted, by the Lord Jesus Himself.

Of course there is no right or wrong answer in all of this. What may be true in finality is that although Paul did leave the Ephesian Church to God’ grace, it was reflective of his own faith and authority in being able to trust in God to keep them through the grace of the word accurately taught and presented through a man; who though not an apostle as Paul was, (being the one born out of season, and as one of the twelve), yet was still for all that an apostolic worker. The Lord’ words to the Ephesian church in Revelation, is the last words spoken to them through a letter by the apostle John, and John himself was the last of the true apostles alive at that time. The true wolves were probably just at the door and very quickly the churches would begin to change from apostolic to bishopric.

I can’t speak for anyone else but when I say I have a hope that there will once again be a true apostolic ministry given to the churches I don’t mean anything less than men like Paul and Timothy. That is because of the times we live in when there are countless wolves and false teachers, not least those end time carousers who will produce an end time deception far in excess of anything the early church faced. After all, if the darkness was drawing in during the time of the apostles, how much darkness has drawn in in this late hour. It is becoming blackest darkness.

Brother Washad writes..........

"However each believes in the continuation of all of the spiritual gifts. How can we who were taught all our lifetime that these things are passed away know how to receive/operate(?) in them within our meetings without being decieved i.e placing too much importance on the gifts and/or false interpretaions of thier use?"

Key point brother. The notion that one can be in any leadership position without the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and a balanced view on the gifts is a scary one. While Pentecostals and Charismatics have well documented excesses and have caused huge problems within Christendom, so has dead denominations, denominations that are cessationists. One is the frying pan, the other is the fire. I believe that the Lord is raising up men, Baptized in the Holy Spirit and mighty in the Word of God who will help lead and guide God's remnant children............bro Frank

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Don't try to be something you are not

Don't reject the calling of God in your life

Don't be mystical be real

If you are able to mix the mortar then mix the mortar

If you are able to lay bricks then lay bricks

Don't defraud others and don't worry if you are defrauded

(If you don't like the word don't no doubt you wont like this either)