What is Bibical love anyway??

At the risk of being overly emotional or even seeking sympathy I would like to share my view of biblical love. I'm not sure if this has been in another thread but I will try and check out of respect for the writer. Whether or not I ask for my heart to become changed, Almighty God must do so in order for me to become new,born again. My experience with this has come in praying for people I formerly hated, and I don't mean just a strong dislike but the kind of hate that would like to feel their last breath as it escapes from between my hands. I was abused as a child and praying for these people has opened my heart in a way I didn't know was possible. That is the kind of love that is important to me, in fact I can't live without it and I consider it biblical love because the Word of God promises me that rest and peace and I know for a fact that it is a miracle of the Holy Spirit to receive such love. I try not to delude myself into believing that I have any right to point out someone else's actions but that usually doesn't stop me. I try instead to redeem my time and beg and I mean plead with God to change my heart, make me new because I will surely die if He doesn't. If I am so honored and blessed to gain any insight into the mysteries and truths of God's Holy Word I must strive to give them a clean place to reside, my heart. The more I pray, the more I realize that my life as a follower of Christ is quite impossible for me to live and that only Jesus Himself will birth within me my new, clean heart, that new wineskin I so desperately need. If I could have anything in this world it would be more love to give, biblical or otherwise, whether I think it's deserved or not; in fact I don't trust myself to make that decision so I ask Christ to teach me how to love, one breath at a time.Rich

In short, were all responsible to God for our "OWN" actions That is why I choose to keep inside most things I don't agree with, although you and I might have an abundance of will power to do this some don't, and once we say something about something or someone some folks will pick that up and are really clueless of the mission and get carried away and now "WE" are responsible for what we have place in their heart. I guess that is why Pro 18:21 Say's Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof. If you feel in your own personal heart that you have some issues with Benny Hinn why not just pray for him? that offers the highest power of healing, as for as anyone's mission here or anywhere to expose him Wow! just look around it's all over the news and newspapers, so please don't take it personal that your mission is in vain because with Benny that would be impossible with all his exposure. And as I said before there are lots of Benny Hinn's out there why pick on him why not utilize your time exposing the one's that the rest of the world don't know about? I will say it again let God deal with Benny if He has to he can put him a full body cast to get his attention! I understand were your coming from but don't let it interfere with other things God may need you for.God Bless You Brother :-)

What say you?What an excellent post! Excellent study. Biblical truths and not just emotion. I was just about to research this very topic myself and the Lord had you do some of the work for me Krispy :) I was a slave to this false touch-feely, do not judge, love of the sin of man gospel for over 10 years and only after receiving the Holy Spirit did my eyes open to the love of God as it is in the scriptures.Love is not the love and tolerance of sin.In John 8, Jesus said to the adulterous woman, even after He allowed her sin to be exposed publicly, told her to go and live a holy life instead..."I do not condemn you either. Go on your way and from now on sin no more."Jesus exposed her sin, told her to repent, and live a holy life instead of sinning again, and He did not condemn her. Do we say our Lord Jesus Christ was unloving for such a politically incorrect demonstration of His love?

My concern has always been the gross, heretical doctrines he teaches and the way he misleads millions of people world-wide... leading many to eternal death.Preach on, brother. I think your definition (or should I say defense) of Biblical love as opposed to the world's version of love is spot on. There is a fantastic error in allowing the world's view of love and 'tolerance' to impare our ability to lovingly correct the bretheren or sin when we see it."If you love me, you'll accept me." Is the world's cry today. It is the cry of homosexuals, murderers, rapists, and other miscreants, but they misspeak. What they're really saying is "If you love me, you'll accept my sin"Not a chance. There's nothing in the Bible, as you've so well pointed out, that suggests we need to accept another man's sin...yea, the Bible actually preaches the opposite, that we are to Judge (according to the word) sin and condemn it. It is not meet for us to stand silently by and watch the masses march to Hell. When they get there, they will NOT spend eternity thanking us for 'loving them' and accepting what they did without comment.Make it your #1 goal in life, Christian...that NO ONE will have cause to look up from hell and ask you "Why didn't you tell me?"

I try not to delude myself into believing that I have any right to point out someone else's actions but that usually doesn't stop me. I try instead to redeem my time and beg and I mean plead with God to change my heart, make me new because I will surely die if He doesn't. If I am so honored and blessed to gain any insight into the mysteries and truths of God's Holy Word I must strive to give them a clean place to reside, my heart. The more I pray, the more I realize that my life as a follower of Christ is quite impossible for me to live and that only Jesus Himself will birth within me my new, clean heart, that new wineskin I so desperately need. If I could have anything in this world it would be more love to give, biblical or otherwise, whether I think it's deserved or not; in fact I don't trust myself to make that decision so I ask Christ to teach me how to love, one breath at a time.Amen and Amen! Thank you Rich.

Be cautious... some will argue that the Pharisees exposed her sin, not Jesus.Caution heeded. I meant it to be written as Jesus allowed her sin to be exposed by the Pharisees. He did not object to the public display, but rather objected to them being the hypocrites they were.

It is not meet for us to stand silently by and watch the masses march to Hell.Amen.

Laying down your life for people who do not, should not, and could not deserve it.

It's just too bad that Mother Theresa died believing in the Catholic Church for her salvation. If she did not put her faith in Christ alone, then she was not saved. Thats heart breaking considering that she did so much for so many.Dear brothers, let's not embarrass ourselves! ;-) This is our conclusion in a thread entitled "What is biblical love?" Here is a woman that embraces the very life of the cross that this entire website is dedicated too! Mother Thersa said, "Let there be no pride or vanity in the work. The work is God's work, the poor are God's poor. Put yourself completely under the influence of Jesus, so that he may think His thoughts in your mind, do His work through your hands, for you will be all powerful with Him who strengthens you." Brothers, there is no way she lived the life she lived other then by abiding in Jesus Christ. To believe otherwise says something about how impoverished our evangelical gospel has become. The scriptures, such as James' description of "true religion", that express God's heart for the poor could fill a large Christian volume...not an evangelical volume mind you, but a Christian one none the less.No matter how much good we do... if we are trusting in anything other than Jesus Christ for our salvation, we are lost.John Calvin couldn't have said it better! Yet we must distiguish mere doctrinal purity from true heart purity. I think she understood the work of the cross in a deeper and more profound way then most protestants."It is not possible to engage a direct apostolate without being a soul of prayer. We must be aware of oneness with Christ, as he was aware of oneness with His father. Our activity is truly apostolic only in so far as we permit him to work in us and through us, with His power, with His desire, with His love. We must become holy, not because we want to feel holy , but because Christ must be able to live His life fully in us. We are to be all love, all faith, all purity, for the sake of the poor we serve. And once we have learned to seek God and His will, our contacts with the poor will become the means of great sancity to ourselves and others. Love to pray---feel often during the day the need for prayer, and take trouble to pray. Prayer enlarges the heart untill it is capable of containing Gods' gift of Himself. Ask and seek and your heart will grow big enough to recieve Him and keep Him as your own."Yes, I can recite all of the errors and heresy of Roman Catholicism. (Indeed my faith is more in the reformed tradition then the arminian tradition.) Yet I dare not believe that my faith in grace to be so pure as to condemn her life lived in grace. Sadly, her faith in Christ included some of the sacraments and idols of the Catholic church. The only difference between her idols and ours, is that ours are more plentiful and more secret. If only we had as few idols in our lives as she had in hers.We American Evangelicals, for all our fine didactic doctrine, are still trying to understand all of the Gospel, I think. It is good to hold fast to a pure doctrine of grace; it is far better if our grace enables us to hold fast to the poor the destitute and the least of these. "Without our suffering, our work would just be social work, very good and helpful comma, but it would not be the work of Jesus Christ comma, not part of the redemption. Jesus wanted to help by sharing our life, our loneliness, our agony, our death. Only by being one with us, has he redeemed us. We are allowed to do the same; all the desolation of the poor people, not only their material poverty, but their spiritual destitution, must be redeemed, and we must share it for only by being one with them can we redeem them, that is, by bringing God into their lives and bringing them to God."For your consideration,MC

Hey Krispy, thanks for the insight on Ma Theresa. I was not aware of her heretical beliefs concerning embracing all these false religions as being of the same God I serve.The LORD keeps tearing me down with nuggets of knowledge like this. We have become such an idolatrous nation. We see people doing good works and prop them up as being of God's. Yet, when I read these statements of hers, I cringe and I am broken even more.When I asked the Lord to truly open my eyes, I thought it was going to be this "awesome" experience. Mostly, it has been sobering and at many times, terrible, and has caused me great sorrow. Stupid me, huh?MD

This is a very important issue. If we waver and begin to say " all roads lead to Christ" we will be swamped by Islam and other such faiths who make no such allowance for the Christian faith.However lets not forget our mercy and stay sensitive to the Holy Spirit. I am always encouraged by the story of Appollos who was tutored by Priscilla and Aquilla who showed him " a more excellent way". Perhaps what is lacking in modern evangelical circles is the same willingness to give all and serve as mother T did. Whilst I was in a state of apostasy about four years ago I visited an Aids Hostel run by her nuns in South Africa. As a " believer" I wandered from bed to bed first on a full fllor of dying men, then on a floor of dying women and finally a floor of dying children. I had nothing to give them in my back slidden and hard hearted condidtion. On the top floor a black sister gathered the children around her and sang " I believe we belive the Holy Spirit will come down and Africa will be saved". I knew that the Holy Spirit was speaking to me, and shortly after my return to Ireland I wept my way back through repentance to a relationship with Jesus.I have huge issues with the R C doctrines but am shamed by how little I give having recieved so much. Maybe we all need to display the attributes of Christ more so that the ones who serve in "ignorance" begin to take as much notice of what we do as what we say.Paul Ireland

It is what is in the heart that makes a person spiritual, not what is in the head.In Christ,Ron

Thanks Krispy for your insights here. I feel like you are a rudder on a ship that's trying to keep the ship on its course towards the cross and blood of Jesus alone. Thanks for blessing me.MD

Krispy wrote,Dont like it? Dont get mad at me... it's not my gospel... it's Jesus's.Brother, let's not let this become the tone of our conversation. (Although I love your passion!)Besides, if we were to judge fruit alone...her life, and love, resembled Jesus' gospel far more then what is taught in our pulpit's. (I'm thinking the beatitudes, the sermon on the mount...) Perhaps this is a point of weakness in our American gospel...it's doctrines have only enough power to change individuals at the epicenter of personal salvation, with little redemption left for the society around us. But we cannot judge fruit alone. Along with her doctrines towards the poor, we must judge her salvation doctrine. You quoted Mother Theresa,"All is God--Buddists, Hindus, Christians, etc., all have access to the same God."Well, if she said this then she does have a big problem. I thank you for bringing this to light, and I stand corrected on her gospel. Jesus certainly disagrees with her and Paul would have never preached such a heretical belief. Bless you Krispy.This does leave me having to figure out a glaring inconsistency in our own gospel. Indeed, that she may not have been regenerated only increases our own embarrasment.The Catholic Church teaches salvation thru works...No doubt there are horrible perversions within the Catholic Church. Perhaps the worst is replacing the sufficient atonement of Christ with the need for an ongoing priestcraft "atonement". Repentence is reduced to mere sacramental ritual.Brothers, in all honesty, I see a similar dynamic in us, though less theatrical and scripted. Even Ravenhill pointed out that we have "romanized" the altar. Yet when we talk about the Catholic Church we become advocates for "Solas Gratia, and Solas Fide". I never imagined that I might one day be defending a catholic but only on the same basis I defend arminians. Here is a quote from Finney, one of our evangelical heroes, that I would classify as a works gospel as well. I use him because this sounds alot like the gospel I hear frm many people here at SI. (From Finneys' systematic theologies)The substitutional atonement "assumes that the atonement was a literal payment of a debt, which we have seen does not consist with the nature of the atonement ... It is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of any one" (p.217).]"The doctrine of imputed righteousness, or that Christ’s obedience to the law was accounted as our obedience, is founded on a most false and nonsensical assumption." After all, Christ’s righteousness "could do no more than justify himself. It can never be imputed to us ... it was naturally impossible, then, for him to obey in our behalf " This "representing of the atonement as the ground of the sinner’s justification has been a sad occasion of stumbling to many" (pp.320-2).You see, it is easy to agree with each other that the gospel is salvation through grace alone. What we can't seem to agree on is what "grace" means. You have given me something to really consider about Mother Theresa. She seemed as an angel indeed, but even if an angel were to preach another gospel then the one Paul preached, then we could faithfully anathamize.Now that we've agreed that salvation is by faith alone in Christ, my question now is...any other angels in these parts? Please help this poor calvinist understand some seeming inconsistencies. My interest is not to catapult at each other boulders of unlived theology....(zzzzzz). I'm interested in our own honest, "it's time to meet Jesus" confidence in the finished work of Christ. I treasure the faithfulness and love for the gospel that you demonstrate Krispy...MC

Most of what passes for Sunday morning services came from the Catholic Church... which means it came from Roman (pagan) culture. A really good book on this is called "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola. He documents where just about everything comes from... alters, pulpits, robes, etc. Very fascinating read, and something I highly recommend.Are you suggesting that altars and pulpits are pagan?

It has been said that WISDOM is the right application of knowledge. As we approach the subjects in these forms and in some instances make mention of names (I'm speaking to myself here), let us not neglect the wisdom that God freely offers.The Order of the book of James starts with wisdom and moves to a crown of life promised to thoughs who Love God and then moves into some really practical stuff. Love is something we do but in the public areana it must be seasoned with wisdom. Especially in these forms where so much of what we say can be misunderstood.So lets be careful to think through what it is exactly we are trying to say and have respect for each other. My prayers are my Love expressed for you all. Bro. Daryl

Hi Krispy,I understand what your talking about and appreciate your zeal to purify the Church. I am very familiar with the subject having been bathed in years (and semesters) of it to almost mind numbing proportions. I have written extensively about it as you may look at a few of the articles (if you wish) that are available here and in a few other places. One being Identity and Expression of Faith and another; The Church Heads West (An introduction To the Issues) Part 1 & 2. My concern is now- as it has always been. The Messianics have a list a mile long of Hellenistic influences in the Church, but wish to replace them with what they consider 1st century Judaism/Messianism and its various expressions. I have books at home that glean all kinds of Jewish customs from the New Testament. They believe that the 'Church' will not be the 'Church' until it looks like it did in Jerusalem before Yavneh and the split with the synagogues. They can build compelling parallels to all the offices of the Church and synagogue with its various expressions. That is why they refuse to call their meeting houses Churches- they call them synagogues. That is why they call their places of study BatLanim and not library. That is why they have no crosses. I could go on for days. So are we prepared to really go back to the New Testament? When there were stone and dirt floors and Pasach was celebrated instead of the Lord's Supper- fit with all the fixens such as Horse Radish, Lamb and such? I have been in a bonified Passover Supper laying on my side on the floor next to the brother beside me with a table a few inches from the floor. Shall we do the real authentic services?I have heard the slurs against folk like myself that just serve God with gladness. I am no stranger to feeling out of place because I did not do all they thought I should. I have heard the accusations of paganism for having a Christmas tree and such. I just grew to ignore it all. I have a Tallit with Tzitzit in a drawer. Don't mean nothin in itself. Oh, I get it out and loan it out when folk want to preach on taking up the mantle. I feel priveledged to have been in services that were likely the closest thing to the New Testament period we are going to get. Pentecostal Messianic Jews! Wow! I could almost smell the Jerusalem air. Yet I found, that God was no more in all that than He was when I went to Church and sang there is Power in the Blood. It was no more powerful than the House meetings I have been in where God was moving in a mighty way. Or even in my car when I'm driving down the road worshipping God and His presence is so strong. Oh, it's neat to go back and try to be what they were in 50 AD. But I can't live there. Its not me. Its not what God called me to do.God Bless,-Robert

Krispy,If we agree on a subject then how can we argue----I mean fellowship with one another? Obviously we need another subject! Just kidding... I appreciate the dialogue! LOLMC

Robert,I'm glad to learn about your studies regarding the messianic/hellinistic tension in our churches. While admitting that the church has been characterized as an "age of gentiles", with many layers of Greek and Roman influence I think that there can be unscriptural bondage in going too far to bring a "Jewish" sensibility back to our churches. In fact it can be downright silly. I remember, in our church a few years ago, the polite smile a visiting Israeli missionary threw over to us musicians as we"honored" his visit with some "Jewish" music of our own. ("Looky what we can do!") To his ears it probably was the equivalent of listening to a karoake singer at the Holiday Inn.You seem to know something about this topic. I have been troubled by some of the writings from a few messianic teachers who infer that westernized Christianity is a subtle expression of cultural anti-semitism. I have also been confused by a few teachers on both sides of the cutural divide suggesting that in order for the two to keep their identities that we consider them as two....not one church. For instance some messianic brothers, such as David Stern have begun to define "Gods' people" in terms of an "Olive Tree Theology"; Messianic Jews are natural branches that are separate from the grafted-on branches of "Gentiles", which are in turn different from the "Non-Messianic Jews" who are separated branches waiting to be rejoined. This thesis as the basis for an extended systematic theology seems to hilight our differences in a spirit contrary to Galatians 3:28...at least to this westerners' ears. Indeed, I can't tell if this restoration of Hebraic Christianity is rooted in love of Jewish religous culture, or in a critique of western religous culture. (And therefore a critique of my religous culture...) This is a growing question to me...how can we keep our treasured distinctions and valid denominations while laying down our superiority over one another? I suppose we will forever be saying, " I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."You wrote in one of your articles;The Jews will be won to Christ – not when they see Jesus through the eyes of systematic theology; but when they see the glory of God in our lives that provokes them to jealousy and makes the question the very things they believe. When the glory returns the elect will see it and recognize it.Amen. Let it be so in my life brother.

I have also been confused by a few teachers on both sides of the cutural divide suggesting that in order for the two to keep their identities that we consider them as two....not one church. Hi Compton,Yes they do desire to maintain a distinction between the Jews and non-Jews within the Church. Actually, they almost shun the word 'Church' and consider themselves almost a continuation of first century Judaism as it comes to fruition in Messiah. The best models I have seen to describe what they believe is that of a circle within a circle. Imagine a circle and then a small circle inside it darkened in. That is how many Messianics see their roles in the Church. Part of the body, but distinct within it with a special call and purpose in the Earth. They believe they should maintain their identity as Jews and worship Messiah within that framework. Yet, again, there is a desire to return to 1st Century things. That is why I went to the Jewish Roots Institute in the first place. I wanted to see 'authentic' Christianity. But what I have found is that Rabbinism is the leaven in their camp just like Hellenism is the leaven in ours. They may quote from Mishna and such and I just can't go for that. I believe the whole Oral Law is a farce. That would get me thrown out of the place I'm sure, but I feel that strongly. When I hear folks talking about 'getting back to the Book of Acts' I am quite sure that they whist not what they are really saying. And that, because they are reading the book of Acts through a Western modern lens and we have no clue what their life was really like. We can hardly reconstruct the lives of the settlers in America with any real sense of justice. For example; there have been documentaries made about "Homesteading" and it has been found that many people could not survive the winter if they were thrust back into a mid 18th century context in unsettled lands with the tools and means that they had. So to, what was life really like for them? I have seen the Amish and know of the Hutterites and have found that they also wanted to "come out from among them" so to speak. They are locked in an era in which there were horses and wagons and such. Yet, I also know that in some cases the family may go to church several times a day and have home made wine in the cellar. People had to strait flee the compound to find Jesus. Guess where they found Him?As far as the whole anti-semetic thing. There has been a long history of anti-semitism. Today folk in the Church say things that they have no idea are really slurs. "I'm a Jew in a Gentile chassis." or "I can save money in a way that would make a Jew proud." These things are not helpful at all. They see our crosses as a "sword dipped in 2000 years of Jewish blood." I could go on. I have seen people get irate at the notion that the Church does not love the Jews. I saw a girl get up and walk out over it never to return. I saw the instructor look them off as they left. He would say, "You do not love the Jews, you love the idea of the Jews." Sorry so long...God Bless,-Robert

Indeed, I can't tell if this restoration of Hebraic Christianity is rooted in love of Jewish religous culture, or in a critique of western religous culture. (And therefore a critique of my religous culture...) This is a good point to look at as we ask the question; "what is a church?" The saddest thing about what I have observed from back when I studied Jewish Roots and again now with the whole "out-of-church" movement is that there is a strange mixture of secular marketing strategy that is leavened in with it all. That strategy, I'm sure, is as old as 'buying and selling' itself. And that, there is the notorious discounting of the former to make way for the latter. Simply point out all the weaknesses of the Old so we can 'sell' the New. Yet we are not talking about selling cars here. This is the Kingdom of God. I have mentioned this before but suffice me to mention it again. There are people all over the spectrum in terms of their way of identifying themselves and their expression of faith. some like modern music and others like the old Wesley hymns. Some pray loud and other pray soft. Some get excited others are solumn. Yet, what we tend to do is identify ourselves by what we are not as opposed to what we are. The most disturbing thing is that inanimate objects are being blamed for much of the problems. "Tear down the church buildings!" OK, so then where will we worship if there are more than 150 that want to assemble? Well, what we will do is we will build a big metal building or rent a school gymnasium and just not call it a church. Yes, that's it. Do you see the folly of these things? I was in a small town in SD a while back and was 'priveledged' to preach behind a pulpit that was once preached behind by Billy Sunday. I'm sure ministering in England there are opportunities to minister where many dear saints have ministered. Yet, is it anything? In no wise. Is it the more or the less? In no wise. What is it? It is a neat thought to know it- but it is of no other value. The pulpit is nothing- it is the Word of the Lord that goes forth from it. Whether it be a music stand or a wooden box- there usually needs to be some kind of stand to hold the Bible or notes. I have heard that the history of the pulpit began when folk refused to be 'seen' as they ministered so pulpits were designed to 'cover' the man as he delivered God's word. As for altars and such- would to God that we could get back to good old fashioned altars where folk pray through. I am concerned that altars are being taken out of the Churches- not added. There is a whole generation of young people right now that don't know the new birth experience and it is my feeling that some good old fashioned praying through at the altar may get them there. This could happen anywhere I know. yet, there are many that need help getting to a setting where God can deal with them. I have many teens that cannot drive and need to ride the van to service. They come and pray at our altars and God moves in a mighty way. What shall we do?Get a wreckong ball? or shall we seek God until we have a move of God and keep it. Shall we pray until a fire is lit and keep stoking it? When we have no fire in our homes will we tear down our houses also? I trow not. If we have no fire in our altars shall we tear them down? If we have no fire in our pulpits shall we blame the pulpit? I think it's high time to quit running from place to place and find a good old fashined altar of repentance and revival and take responsibility for what has happened ourselves instead of blaming everything else. Just my thoughts...God Bless,-Robert

What shall we do? Get a wrecking ball? or shall we seek God until we have a move of God and keep it. Shall we pray until a fire is lit and keep stoking it? When we have no fire in our homes will we tear down our houses also? I trow not. If we have no fire in our altars shall we tear them down? If we have no fire in our pulpits shall we blame the pulpit? I think it's high time to quit running from place to place and find a good old fashined altar of repentance and revival and take responsibility for what has happened ourselves instead of blaming everything else. Just my thoughts...Good thoughts. How ironic...the dissapointed "prophet" who leaves a worldy church shares responsibility for that church remaining worldy. Thanks for your response Robert.MC