The "apple of his eye"

The "apple of his eye" was mentioned on another site to mean 'the church' now in the mind of someone that is either not familiar with the foundation of the scriptures or the prophets therein, and what it means for us today. This kind of teaching is not only unscriptural, it has consequences of unexpected magnitude.

Zechariah 2:7  Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you:

for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

9  For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me. 10  Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. 11  And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. 12  And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. 13  Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

So even if one reads the OT only once, it's obvious that here it's spoken about Zion, Judah as a coming portion in the holy land inherited by Jesus, and Jerusalem that will be chosen again. That is the scriptural foundation of the expression the "apple of his eye". Even if Charismatics and others that believe the OT is finished or God is finished with the old covenant try to spritualize the scriptures, it's still means just that vebatim. To acknowledge that helps a great deal to not fall into the trap of this emerging group of "all people" that get themselves cut to pieces by their own ignorance:

Zechariah 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Henry Gruver came to mind, that has a ministry in Japan the last few years, and was consulted by Japanese parliament members AFTER the devastating tsunami of 2011. After which they changed their demand outlined below and also their vote from "yes" to a "abstain" the following UN vote on the Palestinian state issue. Its a mostly totally unknown example what it really means to touch the apple of his eye.

The One True God identified Himself to the people of planet Earth, as the God of Israel, the I AM, the Lord Jesus Christ. The media never told us what happened within 48 hours of when Japan gave the DEMAND to Israel that day of the 9.1 earthquake and tsunami.

taken from the Henry Gruver newsletter:
http://joyfulsoundministries.com/Newsletter/newsletter3.html

"Where did it all Begin? Japan sent their ambassador to Geneve, Switzerland to deliver the official stand of Japan concerning the
Israel-Palestinian situation. Quote "Cease Jerusalem over to the Palestinians for the capitol of the nation of Palestine. Give back all territory taken in the 1967 war back to Syria, and other nations." That was delivered March 9th 2011. 48 hours later on March 11, 2011 the record breaking earthquake hit Sendai, Japan with a Tsunami that also broke all records destroying thousands of lives, homes, businesses, schools, temples, shrines and farms in its 250 mile path. As this happened my heart broke for the people and all those beautiful children who perished in all of this."

Unconfirmed rumours has it that the US administration has a similar demand drawn out regarding Jerusalem and the mountains of Israel, specified with an exact time table to follow. It would make sense according to the prophets i mention here in this post, but haven't heard anything yet regarding if or when this will be delivered to them.

In the meantime it's good to mention that the next 1000 years will be physically lived on this earth, so no need to ignore plain scripture regarding exactly that in exchange for a 'form of spirituality' that has no direct relationship with the written word.

The more you read the prophets, the more you can cross reference and pinpoint almost the exact time when the once rejected yet still reserved chosen people appointed for salvation will suddenly receive the grace to accept Jesus Christ as their God and King. And this time is coming very close now. However a time of great war, because of the controversy of Zion. Many want to own it, some want to destroy it. When Jerusalem becomes a stumbling block for the majority, including the so-called church that does not understand things happening outside their own belly button view you know its getting close.

Zechariah 13:8  And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Our reverence as the church of Christ is to our soon brethren to be, THAT remnant that shall say: The LORD is my God. Not the state or land as such, however God sees THEM - that future remnant as the rightful heirs of the promise he made to their fathers so adresses them synonymously by names that indicate location. To not see this reality is almost like a reverse blindness on side of the church. I hope that veil can be taken away by His grace before it gets to a critical state where the church sides with the rest of the world and gets cut to pieces together.

"Daughter of Zion" and "daughter of Babylon" have a VERY close relationship, prophetically, in their last instances reaching into our time. There is a parallel in the material world we can observe, one side will go through the refining fire, and suffer great loss, the other will be totally destroyed, this alone - knowing that all prophecies apply again and again, since there is nothing new under heaven, should already give it away:

Zechariah 2:7  Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon. 10  Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.

Psalms 137:8  O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Isaiah 47:1  Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.

Jeremiah 50:42  They shall hold the bow and the lance: they are cruel, and will not shew mercy: their voice shall roar like the sea, and they shall ride upon horses, every one put in array, like a man to the battle, against thee, O daughter of Babylon.

Jeremiah 51:33  For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like a threshingfloor, it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come.

Just want to add for now 'daughter of Babylon' is only part of Mystery Babylon of the endtimes, it's a nation by definition that has a few characteristics that distinguish her strongly from others:

She has another nation as a mother that is still around to see her daughter fall:
Jeremiah 50:12  Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations shall be a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.

She is the executioner or 'dominant military force' among the nations:
Jeremiah 50:23  How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!

She has a mingled people from many nations living in her that are asked to come out and leave at time of her attack. As well as saints that are asked to leave as well and let Jerusalem come to their mind as a destination.

She is the dominant merchant nation of the world, influencing all the world
Revelation 18:23  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

She is directly responsible for the war that comes to Israel, and all the world.
Jeremiah 51:49  As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth.

Ephesians 2:11-22 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

This leaves the old testament Israel still depending on the earthly promises of God for those that are not "One new man", which is both Jew and Gentile one in Christ, one body, one Spirit by the birthing in both, "the incorruptible Seed", of the Father, which is the living Word of God Himself, being "Christ in you the hope of Glory". John 1: 1-4.

1 Peter 1:22-25 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

This, "one new man", is both Jew and Gentile, "born again" making both one new man in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior, Brother and God Himself in the one new man, which is now the Temple of God, holding the Incorruptible Seed of the Father, in both, and making them one new man, both son's of God, by the Son Himself making us fellow heirs with Christ to the New Body of Christ, His Church, leaving the old testament separated Jews, to the promises still left to come to all Israel, not the Body of Christ, which is the New Covenant Body of Christ, His Church, called Christians first in Antioch.

"Of two, one new man", "In Christ by the Christ in you".
No favoritism, just the old and the new, which are still working to accomplish God's perfect Plan for all the ages, which helps understand Revelations much better and how to separate God's perfect plan for all the ages to come.

In Christ: Phillip

Yes, and i would like to continue to show the time of 'heritage Israel' coming around to find His grace, I found the exact moment "from that day and forward" in time.

Jeremiah 51:25  Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain.

Revelation 8:8  And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Babylon is taken, 'mountain in olde english also refers to 'continent' - then what happens...

Jeremiah 50:4  In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the children of Israel shall come, they and the children of Judah together, going and weeping: they shall go, and seek the LORD their God.

5  They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant that shall not be forgotten.

Jeremiah 50:20  In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.

parallel:

Ezekiel 39:22  So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

parallel:

Joel 3:1  For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Current Christianity seems to go into 'ignorance mode' when we hear expressions like "my land" in Joel 3:1 - what has no place in the 'spiritual outlook' where really there are no more physical objects at all. Everything is purely spiritual now. Or maybe gnostic?

Now our tradition of 2000 years church history is the standard, and everything has to be placed around that center. Or so we think, yet the fact of the matter is Jesus will return to Jerusalem in person, when suddenly the "my land" expression comes to life all the way from the Old Testament to actual reality in our very end of times:

Zechariah 14:4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Our problem is the thought that because political Zionism exists - that God himself is not a Zionist. That is a serious misunderstanding in the positive identification of His intention.

How about to try the case for a negative identification, that goes along the lines of "whatever God's enemy tries to achieve gives us a hint of what really matters to him when opposing God - because it matters to God". This piece was printed here before maybe a year ago, it's by one of the main master thinkers of the masons Albert Pike:

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

I wasn't taking this as being definitive until the so called "Arab Spring" where moderate dictators got replaced with radical extremists in several North African and Middle East countries. By the very same people that previously tried to convince us that they had to be considered "the bad guys". Now they get money, tanks and airplanes from Washington. It doesn't make any sense - until you read Pike. He 'received' the actual plan to establish the anti-christ by creating and building up two opposing fronts that kill each other. And he is unfortunately regarded as one of the 'architects of the NWO' by people in power. The resulting blood bath will be so extreme that even main Christianity mostly will have no way to explain it to themselves - and many will loose faith and all hope. It will look like the end of the end has come already, that's the illusion which will help to make the antichrist that will emerge out of the ashes more look like the real Christ.

So from Satan's side the state of Israel was established to have the Jews all in one place to easier fight and destroy them. God's plan is a radical different one, as we know, which we can understand much better when we start paying attention to his prophets.

I know it's a hard truth to accept what's behind political relations with the state of Israel, and the actual strategies in the Middle East behind that facade that are followed seemingly without logic. Things are very different than they appear to be. And Syria and Iran have been part of the plan
many years ago already. The prophets hint at Iran will be the tipping point, that will break America as a nation, even when Israel will be blamed for the Iran attack, and God's attention and focus shifts then to Israel as his 'center of the world' for the next 1000 years. The times of the gentiles is slowly coming to an end, so is the western prosperty and false grace gospel that will have no answer for all of this.

Romans 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Zechariah 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

If you read carefully I haven't touched yet on the future of the gentile church at all, just on the 'ignored branch' of the natural branches. Since this is something not ususally discussed at all by a church that has this idea of a 'gentile christ that will come back to earth in Kansas'. We all will see that idea die a sudden death and the proud will be humbled like nobody has been humbled before.

Revelation 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

down out of heaven - where to? - earth

"Those Old Testament land promises were declared null and void by the work if Christ on the cross and the bringing in of the New Covenant."

No, you're inventing things here. The reality will look like this:

Zechariah 14:16  And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Revelation 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:

Where is the church in all of this?

Revelation 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

We will be with Him wherever He will be

1 John 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Let's have a look at the expression "my land" below - it means God owns it. And he is jealous about it, what was already my point in the first post here giving the example of Japan that also was of the conviction that this would not be the case, at least at first, before they heard Henry Gruver preaching about it.

The whole reason the antichrist wants to get worshiped there is that he knows that Jesus chooses to place His name in Jerusalem, so his stategy is to come first and deceive. A side point is that he actually knows where Jesus will come back to earth, so why does he have a so much better understanding of the things of God than some saints?

Ezekiel 36:5  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

Ezekiel 38:16  And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

This is also the reason why the stumbling block and its controversy exists: "that the heathen may know me". And some others I suppose that need to see it to believe it.

Ezekiel 38:18  And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

Ezekiel 43:7  And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

---- land promises and the duration of it:

Ezekiel 37:21  And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Ezekiel 37:25  And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26  Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

timing is yet future: "And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore." At the moment the heathen suspect the exact opposite to be the case, so it isn't fullfilled yet.

----

I think i understand what it is, that creates envy or jealousy about the "late comers" that will have their time of salvation + sanctification cut into the last hour:

Matthew 20:9  And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10  But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11  And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12  Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13  But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14  Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15  Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16  So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

.... this is the whole point: "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?"

To come back to my opening point: To say 2000 years of church history make us the apple of his eye, when God says the eleventh hour ones are - is to express a mind of works righteousness of more work = better pay. Not understanding that the goodman of the house has every right to even go as far as calling the last being first.

a-servant--

Is there a point you are trying to make with all these posts?

If there is, for the love of mike please state it plainly.

When someone asks me on the street "why are you jealous for something God is jealous for?"

I cannot directly explain it, as it's not regarding personal preferences at all, nor do I have any benefit from it.

Have to conclude it's a family affair and just runs among like minded and like hearted.

The best logical reason I would come up with is, that I'm really looking forward to meet them when they come into the fold. And also I'm tired of some "existing family members" that do not have the mind or spirit of our Father in heaven. They read Gods words, ignore them and then talk about their own theology, what they are doing is a "Jeremiah 51:18" - and there is really no more time for that.

Jeremiah 51:19  The portion of Jacob is not like them; for he is the former of all things: and Israel is the rod of his inheritance: the LORD of hosts is his name.

a-servant wrote:

"When someone asks me on the street "why are you jealous for something God is jealous for?"

That is a very strange question for someone on the street to be asking you.

And I still wish you would elucidate on what your point is in all of this. What are you trying to tell us?

It's complicated. I think this replacement theology is part of the great endtimes delusion. After reading a few other people what they have to say about it, it seems that the reason and origin of that confusion in the western church is the prevailing Antinomianism among evangelicals. And that is part of a popular but false gospel, especially in America that also got infected with Dispensationalism and Charismaticism. After studying it for a longer while, it all makes perfect sense because these lines of teachings support each other. And show the same symptoms.

David Servant said:

"Legalism and antinomianism—two words that describe equally fatal theologies. Which of these two words have you heard more often spoken from the lips of professing Christians? How many of them have never even heard of antinomianism? Although the New Testament warns against antinomianism many more times than it does against legalism, antinomianism remains the prevailing theology in many modern Protestant circles."

That's a hard thing to say: "antinomianism remains the prevailing theology in many modern Protestant circles". Where does it come from? It's taken over from dispensationalism even by those that renounced it as error.

"Plainly put, unless you dispense with dispensationalism, you can not understand the prophets in the Holy Bible."

Source: The Abomination of Dispensationalism
http://www.moresureword.com/Dispensa.htm

"The Church has received and preaches Another Gospel and therefore can NOT recognize the difference between the Holy Spirit of Truth and counterfeit spirits."

Source: Is the Best Selling Gospel Biblical? - Have We Received Another Gospel?
http://www.moresureword.com/bsgospel.htm

"unable to discern what is true and what is a lie, unable to distinguish evil and good."

Source: Charismaticism - Spiritual Barbarianism
http://www.christiandoctrine.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=541:charismaticism-spiritual-barbarianism&catid=183:heresy-and-error&Itemid=559

"The answer is very simple: to ‘come out’ of the new 'harlot' of charismaticism and to start again, learning anew what God ‘really’ says!"

A-servant, Christinyou and Bearmaster have set forth some clear new-covenant teaching on this matter. I suggest you read their posts again and do some checking to see if what they are saying lines up with the teachings of the apostles of the new covenant. Do some digging and see how they interpreted old-testament scripture.

I'll just add this. You were talking earlier about "the land," the heritage of Israel. What about this new-testament passage:

"But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly, wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He hath prepared for them a city" (Heb. 11:16).

"They," says the writer of Hebrews, are no longer looking for an earthly land or inheritance, but are "now" setting their affection on a heavenly land and inheritance.

Who is the writer of Hebrews speaking of when he says, "they"?

Allan

Hebrews 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

They have been looking for it, but they are dead currently. The dead will not be part of this in any fleshly form:

Revelation 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

However there will be new children born during the millennium, we have to understand that life as is will continue on earth, we will not all together walk in a heavenly form at the same time.

However the dead that will come back to life will. And we that are still alive at his return also will be transformed. Yet it's still happening all on this earth. No scripture makes another scripture not true, they all are true, however in more than one dimension.

All this debate over natural Israel and the Church seems to miss the point. The point is that "he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye" (Zech. 2:8)! God is jealous over something, very jealous! To have the Lord on your side, to know that God is jealous over that to which you are committed, and fiercely jealous over it, that the Lord is not going to let it be set aside or overlooked. What matters is that we are in that something for which God is jealous. Oh, to have the jealousy of God on our side in the work to which we are committed!

In Christ,

Ron

Paul said said "some" were broken off and we are "grafted in among them" ~ Rom 11:17 (I use the NASB)

Just a thought on grafting.

You can purchase trees that have more than one fruit grafted on the same tree. Perhaps there are apple and cherry or pear or several varities of apple.

When that tree fruits the apple branches produce apples and the cherry branches cherries or pear branches pears yet it is the same trunk. The apples do not turn into cherries or pears nor do the cherries/pears turn into apples nor do apple varities change.

The Lord made an "everlasting" covenant with Abraham and decendents reguarding the land and being their God. (Gen 17) Either the covenant is "everlasting" or it is not. If it is, then the Lord is still concerned with the people of Israel and the land. If not then it is not "everlasting" and God lied to Abraham.

Personally I don't understand all the details. I just believe what He said. There are apples and cherries on the tree. OK, wild olives and natural olives (NASB) ;). Two fruits, one tree. He is the gardner. I just have to bear the fruit He prunes me to bear. the rest is His part.

***********************************
Quote:

All this debate over natural Israel and the Church seems to miss the point. The point is that "he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye" (Zech. 2:8)! God is jealous over something, very jealous! To have the Lord on your side, to know that God is jealous over that to which you are committed, and fiercely jealous over it, that the Lord is not going to let it be set aside or overlooked. What matters is that we are in that something for which God is jealous. Oh, to have the jealousy of God on our side in the work to which we are committed!

In Christ,

Ron

*************
Amen!

REJOICE! =)
Mary

These articles I quoted are very interesting, I've learned something new:

"The reason that the Best Selling gospel could not be preached before about 1918, is that the total dedication demanded by the four Gospels had to be removed. It wasn't until the dispensational teaching of Darby, better known as the Dispensational theology, of the Scofield reference bible, RELEGATED the discipline taught by the four Gospels, to an EARLIER DISPENSATION. "

"Ahhhhh! That's why we frequently hear that Jesus "didn't talk to us - he talked to them" - and important for us would then be that "the new testament starts only after his death" - That's Darbys Dispensational theology, that is not the gospel. Jesus then is no longer relevant, Paul is. And he is easily misunderstood as we know, especially if someone doesn't listen to Jesus anymore. That's where most of the error comes from, and we talk and associate with a "Jesus that never talked to us".

.. and that's also why we cannot understand this promise:

Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. Ex 32:13

so what does "seed" mean in the above promise, natural or by faith? Since it's meant "for ever" there can only be one conclusion:

Galatians 3:29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Am not interested in getting into a discussion here but did find this very interesting:

""Where did it all Begin? Japan sent their ambassador to Geneve, Switzerland to deliver the official stand of Japan concerning the
Israel-Palestinian situation. Quote "Cease Jerusalem over to the Palestinians for the capitol of the nation of Palestine. Give back all territory taken in the 1967 war back to Syria, and other nations." That was delivered March 9th 2011. 48 hours later on March 11, 2011 the record breaking earthquake hit Sendai, Japan with a Tsunami that also broke all records destroying thousands of lives, homes, businesses, schools, temples, shrines and farms in its 250 mile path. As this happened my heart broke for the people and all those beautiful children who perished in all of this." "

Makes me wonder how many similar incidents are there that we know little about?

Consider the most recent week: lawlessness running amok, crazy weather that results in cropland being flooded - too wet - where planting is being delayed and if this situation persists there will be a food shortage (we are very wet and more rain is predicted for this week - we live in an major agricultural area in MS); too cold - freezing wheat - happened in Kansas; tornadoes - we are personally seeing its frequency increasing in our area. Politics? Seems like these other events are overshadowing what may be going on in the political realm - who knows what is being done while people's eyes are diverted elsewhere.

Isaiah 2:12-22 details how God will impose judgement upon a nation. It will effect people, nature, national security and commerce. Reading Isaiah is like reading modern news in poetic form.

Interesting thread, servant.

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

It looks like to me that the dispensation of God is getting ready to change. The dispensation of Grace, which we that are in Christ is coming to an end. The dispensation of the judgment of God is at hand. So keep listing and looking up.

I am not a dispensationalist, but all is getting ready to change and we must be ready to be caught up into the air with Christ and so ever be with the Lord.

This is our comfort.

This is where we need to be; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-28 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves. Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. Brethren, pray for us. Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss. I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Again; And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

"do it"

Having done it already for those In Christ, Spirit and soul, waiting for the quickened body to change in the twinkling of and eye:

Waiting for my new body.

To be like Him: Phillip

I wouldn't say that the dispensation of grace comes to an end, more like changing to a tribulation period as a "last call" for repentance. Even if most will not change their ways, some will, and will loose all previous attachments to a world that was loved too much. Not to mention that large parts of humanity not yet considers that there is a God at all. The physical Jerusalem issue will be an issue where God will intervene and take sides, that's why he chose such a small country - to show that the outcome has nothing to do with human related ability or quantity of force, it can be seen as a testimony that his promises to his people and their seed by faith were true from the beginning, and are true now.

The 'land-connection' is there, and the Jerusalem issue has 'real world' as well as spiritual implications, and both are related. Let's see in how far Kerry puts pressure on Jerusalem and what will be the result of that. In Jeremiah 51 one could think this speaks to the natural seed: Ye that have escaped the sword, go away, stand not still: remember the LORD afar off, and let Jerusalem come into your mind. Jer 51:50 - But it actually it's meant for the seed by faith. Both in a spiritual sense, as well as a practical instruction for nuke survivors.

A few verses have an additional dimension if you look carefully: Romans 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Gentiles come into what? - so all Israel shall be saved.

This only makes sense when it is read with an understanding where Israel means "the born-again family of God". A people that might change their body structure in the future when Jesus takes power to rule the nations, but not necessarily their dwelling place.

However, I discovered one split that will take place. The ones not getting married anymore, and the ones yet getting married and having children. Nobody really explained that yet regarding the millennium, but it looks like people are still getting born.

1) Luke 20:35  But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

2) Isaiah 65:19  And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.  And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

there are children, there are sinners, "and their offspring with them"

I see no problem that Luke 20:35 and Isaiah 65:19 will happen at the same time. What say you?

Bear said, "Brothers we are under a New Covenant that had been ratified by the blood of Jesus Christ in his death in the cross. We as believers in Christ Jesus are guided by the Holy Spirit and the words of Christ as contained in the New Testament. Whereas Christ was concealed in the shadow of the Old Testament, he gas been revealed in the reality of the New Testament.

"The apple of God's eye is the body of Christ Jesus. That reality we call the church. The church is what God is preparing to be the bride of his Son. This is the spiritual Israel of God. This Israel is church/bride that consist of Jew and Gentile. This is the reality of the New Covenant. This truth is taught in the letter to the Ephesians.

"God is no longer dealing with Israel as a nation other than the fact he will call forth a remnant out of Israel to faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 9-11 teach this. This in the wider context of the gospel of Jesus Christ to Jew and non Jew. It is the context of the gospel, the person and work if Jesus Christ that defines redemptive history. Not the nation and land if Israel.

"God has abrogated the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. The land promises to Israel are no longer valid. God is working his eternal purposes through the body of Christ, the church, the bride. Not the land if Israel. This is the teaching of the New Testament."

That's the way I see it as well, Bear. Good post.

Allan

It is apparent by now that two different angles of view or vision are expressed here. One has to cancel promises of God, the other does not need to do that. Why? Because of context set by God in the OT, where some final things in the NT can only be understood in that context.

My conclusion is to read the Bible as a whole book from the first to the last page, to get a better idea who that God of Israel is exactly and what his plans are. Then you do not have to misapply a clearly defined expression as "apple of his eye" out of context, or cancel promises made. Or think within terms of "old testament" and "old covenant" are identical, what is very far removed from understanding either of these, basically we would have to start again from the beginning to define the meaning of these expressions, and what they actually contain.

That sounds like a lot of work.

Let's start with some humour: "The apple of his eye is the church and I'm not a replacement theologist"

"Yes you are, you are just not aware of that fact yet".

I was reading this verse in Zechariah earlier today, and as I was was reading it, I reflected back on an incident that happened shortly after I was saved.

Evidently one of the elders in the church that I was attending thought that if you touched someone that was full of the Holy Ghost, some of the "power" would transfer over. Previously he had studiously avoided touching me in any way, but after it became obvious that I was saved, he laid his hand upon my shoulder and held it there from some time. Later that same day, he had to go to the hospital because of something torn in his shoulder.

I probably would not have made the connection, except that within a few weeks he again made a point of touching me - this time resulting in something being torn in his eye that required immediate surgery in order to avoid his being permanently blinded in that eye.

Oh the joy of being loved by the creator of the universe! The LORD has finally released me to move away from the area that I have been living in for the past ten years. The problem is, I am ready to leave now, but there is still one thing that I must perform. I had suspected that there was still this one thing to do before He would let me leave, but yesterday He made it abundantly clear.

I have been packing for some time now, and there are even some things loaded in the trailer, but yesterday it came into my mind that maybe I could just get the rest of the boxes loaded and be ready to go. Earlier in the day I had noticed that there was moisture on the loading ramp, and thought it best not to load anything more until it was dry - but somehow I forgot to heed this advice.

As I was tugging the fully loaded two wheeler up the ramp, I slipped, falling flat on my back with the full weight of the load coming upon me through the end of the handle of the two wheeler - this landing just to the inside of my hip bone. As I laid there I prayed for the LORD to let me get up. I got up and went inside the garage and sat down and prayed some more - this time reminding the LORD that HE is the great physician and that anything that might be damaged on the inside of me could easily be healed by Him, and that He did a MUCH better job than any doctor could do - and that I really had a lot of things that needed to be done, and could not afford to be injured right at the moment. I also told Him that I realized that this would not have happened if He had not allowed it, and clearly I was forging ahead when I should not have been and that my desire was to walk WITH Him - not ahead, or behind.

I immediately quit loading and packing, and all during the rest of the day, and into the evening I contemplated what had happened. This morning the LORD awakened me with a call from a dear sister and in talking with her it became clear what I needed to do. After making the required phone call, I could feel the release. The date has been set and the ball is rolling.

I have been reading Joni Eareckson's second book, and when I picked it up this afternoon I read about her relationship with her horse as they performed jumps (before her diving accident) - it was about trusting and obeying.

The only injury from my fall is that it feels bruised near my hip bone. When I checked it out late this afternoon I was most delighted to find that there is a bruise in the perfect shape of a heart.

My Jesus loves me, and I love Him. He loves me enough to do whatever it takes to keep me in His perfect will. I am the apple of His eye.

Bearmaster you also think God cancels promises that are meant for ever. Do you have any scripture for your opposing of God's clear words? Where can we find anything of more substance than your personal opinion.

Second question: What is the New Covenant according to you - who made it with whom?

Let me help you out, to question 1)

Ezekiel 11:17: Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

Isaiah 11: 11: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12: And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

The tiny nation of Israel, reborn on 14th May 1948

Isaiah 66: 8:Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Isaiah 41: 8: But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. 9: Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.

Romans 11: 1: I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2: "GOD HATH NOT CAST AWAY HIS PEOPLE...”

Ezekiel 39: 27:When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; 28: Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

"left none of them any more there" is not yet completed, so this is still future

2 Chronicles 20: 7: Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

Genesis 15:18: In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river EUPHRATES.

Galatians 3:15  Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.  And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Let me summarize it by key phrases: no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto - the law cannot disannul - inheritance is of promise

To question 2)

John 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

A common mistake is to think that the New Covenant is between God and the Gentile Church.

The reality is that the new covenant; like the old, is between Almighty God and the house of Israel!

Hebrews 8: 8: ... Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10: For this is the covenant that I will make WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Read again the passage quoted above, and then also Romans chapter 11 again, where Paul explains how God prunes away unbelieving Israelites from the Olive of Israel and grafts in believing Gentiles. In other words, ‘believing Gentiles become Israelites’ who thereafter partake of the goodness of the Olive of Israel. Jews are not grafted into the Gentile church. It is the other way around; believing Gentiles are grafted onto the Olive of Israel. They become ’the ‘children of Abraham’ and ‘joint heirs’ of the Kingdom of God!

You can search for and present any biblical evidence where the New Covenant is made between God and the church. This is my challenge to you, so we all can clearly make that distinction if what some believe is biblical truth or just an imagination on their part.

Jesus said "thy word is truth" - and I say Amen! to that.

Is this statement really true? "The reality is that the new covenant; like the old, is between Almighty God and the house of Israel!"

Dear A servant - when you quoted Paul from Galatians, you missed his point. The covenant which has not, and will not, be set aside is NOT the covenant with Israel, but rather the covenant with Abraham. The covenant with Israel did not occur until 430 years after the previous covenant with Abraham. The covenant with Israel did not and will not set aside the previous covenant God made with Abraham.

The covenant with Abraham was that "ALL NATIONS shall be blessed through you." This was a covenant based upon faith, whereas the later and temporary covenant with Israel, was a law of external commandments that applied only until the time of the new order. Yahweh told Moses - "speak to the sons of Israel" and that is the only covenant God made with Israel - 430 years the previous covenant with Abraham which will not be disanulled.

Jesus Christ is "the seed" of Abraham. All who are of faith in Christ Jesus, become Abraham's seed - both Jew and Gentile. ALL NATIONS are thus blessed through being of the faith of Abraham, as they are joined to Christ by faith.

Through faith, all men become one IN Christ and the old distinctions between Gentile and Jew are superceeded as men become "one new man IN Christ Jesus."

God's covenant with Abraham was NOT set aside by His covenant with Israel is what Paul was saying. The 430 years later covenant with Israel was only temporary until Abraham's seed appeared. When Christ, the seed of Abraham appeared, The Law and the Prophets were done, "for all the Law and the Prophets were until John" - since then it is the Kingdom of God that is proclaimed. We have a new priesthood, a new covenant, based upon better promises. When there is a change of the priesthood, of necessity there must also be a change of the Law. The Law appointed men who were weak to be priests. Our High Priests in not of Levi, and His priesthood is based upon the power of His indestructable life. We have no need of Levitical law, because The Law made nothing perfect.

I have no need of being joined unto the covenant with Israel, which was only temporary until the seed of Abraham appeared. I am of the covenant that will not be annulled, or set aside by the Law of Sinai, which was a ministry of condemnation, weakened by the flesh, and written in letters on tablets of stone that killed.

That covenant came with glory (a fading glory), but has no glory now compared to the surpassing glory of the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. The glory of Moses was fading just like the covenant with Israel - both were temporary. Who did God find fault with - Israel! God found no fault with Abraham - for he was the friend of God.

As far as where the kingdom will be set up, I really do not care where on earth the kingdom will be - so long as Christ Jesus is there.

makrothumia

Quote: """A common mistake is to think that the New Covenant is between God and the Gentile Church.

The reality is that the new covenant; like the old, is between Almighty God and the house of Israel! """

The reality is that the new covenant is of Christ, "not seeds" which would bring forth Israel as our salvation, but the "Seed", which is Christ, He is the new covenant and our only salvation. Being born again of the incorruptible Seed, Jesus Christ, not corruptible seed of Israel.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

10: For this is the covenant that I will make WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

This cannot be the body of Christ the Church, sons of God by He that is birthed in us, His Church, His Bride, taken home to the Fathers house and so we shall ever be with the Lord in His house, not the nation, "a people" of Israel ruling on this earth with Christ as her Head over all the nations for a millennium.

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days , saith the Lord ; I will put my laws into their mind , and write them in their hearts : and I will be to them a God , and they shall be to me a people :

This "people" is a populace, a people of God, not offspring, born from above, by the Glory of Christ in them, sons of God by the Seed,]="living Word of God", which is the parentage seed of God, which is "Christ in you the hope of Glory", the Word, Logos of God the living Word, Jesus Christ, not rhema written word.

Galatians 3:17-18 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Jesus is The Apple of God's eye, and all that want to be the apple of God's eye must come through the eye of God, seeing Christ in you the hope of Glory.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The Incorruptible Seed of Christ. 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

There is no glory in man or nations of men, Israel etc.

1 Peter 1:24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

Who are we born again from? The Father making us the offspring, sons, heirs to the family of God, not a people of God with no birthing.

Who serveth the Law? Galatians 3:17-18 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Israel serveth the Law until this day. The Body of Christ serveth by faith unto obedience in Love.

I am of the heavenly Jerusalem, God's House. Not of the house of Israel of this earth.

In Christ, not Israel: Phillip

You wrote,

"God has abrogated the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. The land promises to Israel are no longer valid. God is working his eternal purposes through the body of Christ, the church, the bride. Not the land if Israel. This is the teaching of the New Testament."

If God abrogated the Old Covenant with the New Covenant then does that mean that half of the original promises made to Abraham have been abrogated? Does that mean that when God promised Abraham a Savior and a land that He could have just as well told Abraham that even though I'm promising land that one day that part of My words to you will no longer be valid because as sure as I promised it I'm going to take it away from you? How does the overwhelming superiority of the promised Savior somehow cancel the land promises? The Sinai Mosaic covenant may have been abrogated but the original promises to Abraham were not part of the Sinai covenant. Perhaps you are imposing the Mosaic Sinai covenant on the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant was given 430 years before the Mosaic covenant and is a different covenant altogether. The covenant of law that came along 430 years later "does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise" (Gal 3:17). So if the Mosaic covenant cannot invalidate and nullify the Abrahamic covenant how can the land promises made to Abraham be considered as abrogated and no longer valid?

God is working His eternal purpose through the body of Christ. That is for sure. Part of the outworking of that plan includes the second coming of the promised Savior Jesus Christ. We all know that but, in your opinion, where will Christ return to at His second coming as this part of God's plan is worked out? When He sets His feet down on earth again, where might that particular piece of land be? It's a question worth considering in my opinion. I believe the early church could have given a ready answer. Where do you think it will be?

To the "is this really true" questions: Yes it is really true, because it's the only perspective supported by scripture. The actual "bigger picture".

Hebrews 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Even though the gentile church entered the new covenant 'first' by faith in Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, that covenant itself is made only with the house of Israel. Now because of our own traditions this will require some mind acrobatic to accept instead of longheld perspectives where the church is alone in the center and "it's all about us". However only then we understand several things that are closely related, like for example that God did not cast away his people and also accept the content of the New Covenant regarding the placement of the law on the heart. You then can understand that lawlessness and not being born again are both related and required to join the final delusion of antichrist spirituality.

Do all die? Why?

Romans 5:1-21 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, ((((((((as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;)))))))))) and so (((((death passed upon all men,)))))) for that ((((((all have sinned:)))))) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

There is only one way to get rid of sin, that is by faith in Jesus Christ and His Spirit now being our spirit which over time governs the soul/mind of born again believers.

1 Corinthians 15:45-58 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

His is made my sanctification redemption, justification and wisdom by God our Father to each of us that are His offspring.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

In Christ the only salvation for all dead in sin to the whole world, by one Man saved by His Blood that have the faith of the Son of God to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

In Christ: our only hope of glory: Phillip

No doubt, but let's stay on topic for a moment. Jesus the mediator of the new covenant regarding whom he was sent to:

Matthew 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

It's a sign of the times that the modern church is run on triumphalism that misses to recognize or share the meekness of this response:

Matthew 15:27  And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28  Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

What tells us the importance of faith that crosses limits, but also clarifies the recipient of the New Covenant. Either we are found grafted into that recipient by faith in Jesus or we are not part of that covenant.

To turn this causality around by having it pointing 'to self' instead is "being highminded" in Romans 11:20 - that also includes a warning to not be cut off in that highmindedness.

True, Jesus was sent to the house of Israel, they did not hear Him, but He crossed the line of reasoning when the Canaanite woman came to him saying Son of David, which she as a Gentile had no claim on Him. When she addressed Him as Lord, He beginning to address the Gentiles and show His purpose to go also to the Gentiles, He healed the woman's daughter. Israel would not hear, but the Gentiles would.

Acts 28:25-28 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

The, "one word", was Christ in you the hope of glory.

Grafted into the Tree which is Christ is not being grafted into the House of Israel, but into The Good Olive Tree, which is Christ. God being the Husbandman and the One who prunes and takes away the bad branches, also the One who Grafts in the wild branches to the Good Tree to produce good fruit from the tree, which is Christ. The same as the Vine, "I am the Vine, you are the branches. John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

This doubtless refers to those that are Christ'. These are both Jew and Gentile that are in Christ whom the Father has given Him. The New Covenant.

All that are Israel that will be grafted back in will happen when the fullness of the Gentile is come in.

This is not being, "being highminded", but knowing scripture and where our place is in the Plan of God.

Romans 11:24-26 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:19-20 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

It is our Faith not our being grafted into Israel, but being grafted into Christ who is the root of the vine and olive tree, both acquiring their fruit from Jesus Christ.

In Christ: Phillip

Yes agree to the vine part, meant it that way, but not agree to the defintion of the phrase "New Covenant". We cannot arrive at the meaning of that agreement between God and his people by conjecture, like you do. You have to look at ALL mentions anywhere in the Bible, and take the meaning form there. The term is only mentioned 4 times in OT/NT, and therefore this is what the mystery is about, the one we shouldn't miss, and that is its final definition given to us:

Jeremiah 31:31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

that is what the New Covenant is, by the only scripture confirmation we have, not conjecture or "thinking ahead what it means for us" - or what historically happened("they did not hear him"), and that is what Jesus himself verbatim confirms here, and I would just leave it at that and believe him, that is prophetically speaking (knowing the end from the beginning) also the final word on the New Covenant. Be strict here with scripture, or you will miss it:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Hebrews 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Hebrews 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Testament: Strong's Greek Dictionary
1242. diatheke
Search for G1242 in KJVSL
diaqhkh diatheke dee-ath-ay'-kay
from 1303; properly, a disposition, i.e. (specially) a contract (especially a devisory will):--covenant, testament.

Is this not the New Covenant, New Testament in His Blood;

Hebrews 10:9-12 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Is this not where Jew and Gentile that are in Christ set also?

Has this happened to the people of God, The remnant chosen of God, of the nation and people of God, Israel?

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

This has only happened to those the God has given to the Son, that He will not loose any except Judas to fulfill the word of God. This is all done by the birthing of Christ in the believer, by the living Word Himself whose Mind we also have, through His Spirit in us. The only Law we have is the Law of Faith and Love in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Israel is still waiting for the new covenant to be fulfilled and it will not happen until Jesus sits on David's Throne in the New Jerusalem the City of God, in the millennium.

It is already come to those that are birthed anew with Jesus Christ the incorruptible Seed of the Father in the believer, by a new and living Spirit, the Spirit of Christ in you the hope of glory, and the Holy Spirit Teacher revealing these thing of Christ in our soul/minds, which God has made unto us "wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption". The only thing left for believers is a new resurrected body, just like the Body of Christ, with flesh and bone not flesh and blood, which never can enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Christ in you the Hope of Glory is where we stand now, In Christ and Christ in us:

Phillip

You explained the content of the New Testament, I was going into the 'administrative view' of the Covenant of God and how He identifies himself to the world.

Within that line of identification it was also said: Salvation is of the Jews and Salvation is come unto the Gentiles (is of - come unto)

John 4:22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

Romans 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Why is salvation come unto the Gentiles? Because of 'them' stumbling (yet not fall). What leaves out any reason for self-righteous boasting, rather:

Romans 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Not showing mercy but going into open hostile contempt is the way of the remaining house of Esau in Obadiah - The vision of Obadiah: "and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau".

All the nations that burden themselves with Jerusalem will be cut in pieces (Zechariah 12:3)

Martin Luther also was very upset with the Jews that did not come to Christ by following his protestant theology. He ended up hating them as a result, because he did not understand that mystery of God.

Why does this all matter. Because of the greatest "God contest" of all times in the endtimes. Think about what people believe in on this planet earth, they all believe in different gods they give different names and identities. That's why global unification attempts always try to get in "all faiths" to create peace on earth based on these humanistic and broadest of religious standards. And based on other Christs. Yet there is no peace.

That's why The God of true peace has identified himself as:

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Luke 1:68  Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

Timing: We see it's a "done deal" - not realized yet by the ones struck with stumbling. What changes nothing regarding it's fulfillment of redemption for them that will come before the millennium, what I did try to articulate in some of the earlier posts, coinciding with Jerusalem being taken captive and endtimes Babylon being destroyed. That's when it happens.

"Is this not the New Covenant, New Testament in His Blood"

Good question, Is there any inconsistency in how we view The Gospel when we compare descriptions given for "new testament" with "new covenant"?

Matthew 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1 Corinthians 11:25  After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Hebrews 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Hebrews 8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

My answer: I would say only IF someone does not find Gods laws in their thinking and heart of appreciation, then I would have to conclude that these received another gospel. What leaves Antinomians as in trouble with the Lord and without the biblical understanding of the new testament.

And that was the goal of dispensationalism, by splitting the church from the house of Israel as separate identities being under different dispensations. Well, if that would be the case we would have to invent a separate covenant for the church, or being without covenant. What is not consistent with the understanding that there is only "one new man" in Jesus Christ, no more denominations.

If anyone has difficulties to reconcile the biblical meaning of the new covenant with that of the new testament, I found another post on another forum interesting regarding something I did not know in detail "what has changed beween the old and the new". Why is the new testament better than the old?

"Quote: here is what changed...

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

What commandment would that be?

Num 18:1 And the LORD said unto Aaron, Thou and thy sons and thy father's house with thee shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary: and thou and thy sons with thee shall bear the iniquity of your priesthood.
Num 18:2 And thy brethren also of the tribe of Levi, the tribe of thy father, bring thou with thee, that they may be joined unto thee, and minister unto thee: but thou and thy sons with thee shall minister before the tabernacle of witness.
Num 18:3 And they shall keep thy charge, and the charge of all the tabernacle: only they shall not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary and the altar, that neither they, nor ye also, die.
Num 18:4 And they shall be joined unto thee, and keep the charge of the tabernacle of the congregation, for all the service of the tabernacle: and a stranger shall not come nigh unto you.
Num 18:5 And ye shall keep the charge of the sanctuary, and the charge of the altar: that there be no wrath any more upon the children of Israel.
Num 18:6 And I, behold, I have taken your brethren the Levites from among the children of Israel: to you they are given as a gift for the LORD, to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

And this was changed from a Levitical Priesthood to a Melchisidec Priesthood...

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

The Levitical Priesthood was genetic, one could NOT be priest without the DNA of the tribe of Levi and the DNA of Aaron. Hence this statement...

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Because God will not violate ANY Law that He either directly gave (the Ten Commandments) or inpired men to record (the Law of Moses) there had to be a change in the Law concerning the Priesthood. Hebrews 7 is not dealing with any portion of the Law except who can be a Priest and God changed that Law rather than do away with it or violate it."
,

When you hear the word "law", you always have to ask "what law". Hebrews 7 law should be clear now. Other expressions of law concern ordinances for example, what the NIV does not want you to know in the example given. Others mention the righteousness that does not come by any law. But what laws are these?

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Well, for this to understand you need a foundation in the scriptures. To just call them spiritual laws does not explain yet what they are about. Only after having the foundation you reject you will be able to differentiate instead of lumping them all together.

The Holy Bible is a consistent whole. The old is the foundation and context of the new, and the new gives the fullness of the revelation of the old. However, understanding the new without the foundation and context of the old is IMPOSSIBLE according to the Lord Jesus Christ, Himself, according to John 5:46-47.

The Apostles taught EXCLUSIVELY from the Old Testament to instruct the FIRST Century Christians. A good example as well, is how Jesus Himself, taught the disciples on the road to Emmaus, immediately after His resurrection.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

May it be the same for all of us and all to whom we may have opportunity to share the good news in these last days.

Hi bearmaster.

I'm curious as to where believers with your view believe Christ will return to when He sets foot on earth again at His second coming. You don't have to reply because replies are always up the individual but yet if someone asked you where you believe Christ will return to, what geographic location on earth, what would be your answer? Is there a opinion among believers with your view as to where this might occur?

This is a good explanation by Andrew Murray that in the New Covenant every single component is by faith. Don't be a cancelmaster of the promises and the plan of salvation of God and cut yourself off by ignorance and unbelief, instead be a 'repairer of the breach'. , believe and be healed.

THE NEW COVENANT

by Andrew Murray

"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."-JER. xxxi. 33, 34.

ISAIAH has often been called the evangelical prophet, for the wonderful clearness with which he announces the coming Redeemer, both in His humiliation and suffering, and in the glory of the kingdom He was to establish. And yet it was given to Jeremiah, in this passage, and to Ezekiel, in the parallel one, to foretell what would actually be the outcome of the Redeemer's work and the essential character of the salvation He was to effect, with a distinctness which is nowhere found in the older prophet. In words which the New Testament (Hebrews viii.) takes as the divinely inspired revelation of what the New Covenant is of which Christ is the Mediator, God's plan is revealed and we are shown what it is that He will do in us, to make us fit and worthy of being the people of which He is the God. Through the whole of the Old Covenant there was always one trouble: man's heart was not right with God. In the New Covenant the evil is to be remedied. Its central promise is a heart delighting in God's law and capable of knowing and holding fellowship with Him. Let us mark the fourfold blessing spoken of.

1. " I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts." Let us understand this well. In our inward parts, or in our heart, there are no separate chambers in which the law can be put, while the rest of the heart can be given up to other things; the heart is a unity. Nor are the inward parts and the heart like a house, which can be filled with things of an entirely different nature from what the walls are made of, without any living organic connection No; the inward parts, the heart, are the disposition, the love, the will, the life. Nothing can be put into the heart, and especially by God, without entering and taking possession of it, without securing its affection and controlling its whole being. And this is what God undertakes to do in the power of His divine life and operation, to breathe the very spirit of His law into and through the whole inward being. "I will put it into their inward parts, and write it in their hearts." At Sinai the tables of the Covenant, with the law written on them, were of stone, as a lasting substance. It is easy to know what that means. The stone was wholly set apart for this one thing-to carry and show this Divine writing. The writing and the stone were inseparably connected. And so the heart in which God gets His way, and writes His law in power, lives only and wholly to carry that writing, and is unchangeably identified with it. So alone can God realize His purpose in creation, and have His child of one mind and one spirit with Himself, delighting in doing His will. When the Old Covenant with the law graven on stone had done its work in the discovering and condemning of sin, the New Covenant would give in its stead the life of obedience and true holiness of heart. The whole of the Covenant blessing centers in this---the heart being put right and fitted to know God: "I will give them an heart to know Me, that I am the Lord; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God; for they shall return unto Me with their whole heart " (Jer. xxiv. 7).

2. " And I will be their God, and they shall be My people." Do not pass these words lightly. They occur chiefly in Jeremiah and Ezekiel in connection with the promise of the everlasting Covenant. They express the very highest experience of the Covenant relationship. It is only when His people learn to love and obey His- law, when their heart and life are together wholly devoted to Him and His will, that He can be to them the altogether inconceivable blessing which these words express, " I will be your God." All I am and have as God shall be yours. All you can need or wish for in a God, I will be to you. In the fullest meaning of the word, I, the Omnipresent, will be ever present with you, in all My grace and love. I, the Almighty One, will each moment work all in you by My mighty power. I, the Thrice-Holy One, will reveal My sanctifying life within you. I will be your God. And ye shall be My people, saved and blessed, ruled and guided and provided for by Me, known and seen to be indeed the people of the Holy One, the God of glory. Only let us give our hearts time to meditate and wait for the Holy Spirit to work in us all that these words mean.

3. " And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord, for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, with the Lord." Individual personal fellowship with God, for the feeblest and the least, is to be the wonderful privilege of every member of the New Covenant people. Each one will know the Lord. That does not mean the knowledge of the mind, ---that is not the equal privilege of all, and that in itself may hinder the fellowship more than help it, ---but with that knowledge which means appropriation and assimilation, and which is eternal life. As the Son knew the Father because He was one with Him and dwelt in Him, the child of God will receive by the Holy Spirit that spiritual illumination which will make God to him the One he knows best, because he loves Him most and lives in Him. The promise, "They shall be all taught of God," will be fulfilled by the Holy Spirit's teaching. God will speak to each out of His Word what he needs to know.

4. " For I will forgive their iniquities, and I will remember their sin no more." The word for shows that this is the reason of all that precedes. Because the blood of this New Covenant was of such infinite worth, and its Mediator and High Priest in heaven of such Divine power, there is promised in it such a Divine blotting out of sin that God cannot remember it. It is this entire blotting out of sin that cleanses and sets us free from its power, so that God can write His law in our hearts, and show Himself in power as our God, and by His Spirit reveal to us His deep things---the deep mystery of Himself and His love. It is the atonement and redemption of Jesus Christ wrought without us and for us, that has removed every obstacle and made it meet for God, and made us meet, that the law in the heart, and the claim on our God, and the knowledge of Him, should now be our daily life and our eternal portion.

Here we now have the Divine summary of the New Covenant inheritance. The last- named blessing, the pardon of sin, is the first in order, the root of all. The second, having God as our God, and the third, the Divine teaching, are the fruit. The tree itself that grows on this root, and bears. such fruit, is what is named first---the law in the heart.

The central demand of the Old Covenant, Obey My voice, and I will be your God, has now been met. With the law written in the heart, He can be our God, and we shall be His people. Perfect harmony with God's will, holiness in heart and life, is the only thing that can satisfy God's heart or ours. And it is this the New Covenant gives in Divine power, "I will give them an heart to know Me; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; for they shall turn to me with their whole heart." It is on the state of the heart, it is on the new heart, as given by God, that the New Covenant life hinges.

But why, if all this is meant to be literally and exactly true of God's people, why do we see so little of this life, experience so little in ourselves? There is but one answer: Because of your unbelief. We have spoken of the relation of God and man in creation as what the New Covenant is meant to make possible and real. But the law cannot be repealed that God will not compel. He can only fulfil His purpose as the heart is willing and accepts His offer. In the New Covenant all is of faith. Let us turn away from what human wisdom and human experience may say, and ask God Himself to teach us what His Covenant means. If we persevere in this prayer in a humble and teachable spirit, we can count most certainly on its promise: "They shall no more every man teach his neighbour: Know the Lord, for they shall all know Me." The teaching of God Himself, by the Holy Spirit, to make us understand what He says to us in His Word, is our Covenant right. Let us count upon it. It is only by a God-given faith that we can appropriate these God-given promises. And it is only by a God-given teaching and inward illumination that we can see their meaning, so as to believe them. When God teaches us the meaning of His promises in a heart yielded to His Holy Spirit, then alone we can believe and receive them in a power which makes them a reality in our life.

But is it really possible, amid the wear and tear of daily life, to walk in the experience of these blessings? Are they really meant for all God's children? Let us rather ask the question, Is it possible for God to do what He has promised. The one part of the promise we believe-the complete and perfect pardon of sin. Why should we not believe the other part---the law written in the heart, and the direct Divine fellowship and teaching? We have been so accustomed to, separate what God has joined together, the objective, outward work of His Son, and the subjective, inward work of His Spirit, that we consider the glory of the New Covenant above the Old to consist chiefly in the redeeming work of Christ for us, and not equally in the sanctifying work of the Spirit in us. It is owing to this ignorance and unbelief of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as the power through whom God fulfils the New Covenant .promises, that we do not really expect them to be made true to us.

Do let us turn our hearts away from all past experience of failure, as caused by nothing but unbelief; do let us admit fully and heartily, what failure has taught us, the absolute impossibility of even a regenerate man walking in God's law in his own strength, and then turn our hearts quietly and trustfully to our own Covenant God. Let us heir what He says He will do for us, and believe Him; let us rest on His unchangeable faithfulness and the surety of the Covenant, on His Almighty power and the Holy Spirit working in us; and let us give up ourselves to Him as our God: He will prove that what He has done for us in Christ is not one with more wonderful than what He will do in us every day by the Spirit of Christ.

The "apple of his eye" was mentioned on another site to mean 'the church' now in the mind of someone that is either not familiar with the foundation of the scriptures or the prophets therein, and what it means for us today. This kind of teaching is not only unscriptural, it has consequences of unexpected magnitude.

I believe you were referring to the following brief article by Andrew Strom. I considered posting it as a new thread but figured it may be better as part of this discussion. If anyone feels it merits being posted as a new thread feel free I suppose:

REPLACEMENT??- ISRAEL & the CHURCH – Andrew Strom

"We know that there have been extremes preached on every side of this issue. So it is with some trepidation that I open this topic up for discussion. Let me lay out a few of my own thoughts, and see if you agree…

Firstly, we know that some ‘Hebrew Roots’ people proclaim that the New Covenant is simply a “continuation” of the Old. This is absolutely NOT the case. We in the New Covenant live by the SPIRIT – not by the old law. It is a completely different covenant. It is the WALK OF THE SPIRIT that makes it so different. It is a BETTER covenant for that reason. The very Spirit of God living and guiding us from within – not mere rules and regulations
from without. What a difference!

The Bible also tells us that the Old Testament is a “shadow” of the new. For example, most of us would agree that the OT
Passover is a “type” or shadow of the reality which occurred at Christ’s death. But then people object when we say that Israel in the OT is clearly a “type” of the church. Surely this is as clear as day? In fact, if Israel is not a “type” of the church, then large chunks of the Bible make absolutely no sense.

Israel in the physical. The Church in the spiritual.

Makes perfect sense, does it not?

As I said, if this is not so, then large chunks of Scripture become utterly incomprehensible.

But it is still important to remember that Israel is a unique entity and has not been “replaced” by the church. So it is vital that Christians love and support God’s “first people”.

However, a rather severe `divorce´ seemed to occur in 70 AD when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and destroyed (1.1 million dead) – exactly as Jesus foretold. Jerusalem and Israel were scattered to the winds for almost 2000 years.

Thus I do NOT believe in “replacement” but I do believe it is the CHURCH that is the `apple of God´s eye´ in the New Covenant era – not Israel.

The “remnant” of Jews can only come back to God properly through CHRIST – and no other way. And we fervently pray that they do.

Sadly though, there seems to be a kind of “Israel-mania” in the church today which I believe is very distorted. I do support the nation of Israel strongly, but for the Christian I believe it is the CHURCH that should be the focus, far more than the physical state of Israel.

We “mix” covenants at out peril. And this is a cause of huge
confusion amongst Christians today. We are “New Covenant”
people – not Old. So why do some act as though physical
Israel is our focus? It is one thing to love and support Israel. But quite another to get caught up in this “mania” that tries to ‘mix’ the two Covenants together. This has actually become a strong deception – and is leading many astray."

Source: http://www.revivalschool.com/replacement-israel-the-church-andrew-strom/

He speaks of a severe divorce between God and Israel that occured in 70 A.D.

He wrote,

"However, a rather severe `divorce´ seemed to occur in 70 AD when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and destroyed (1.1 million dead) – exactly as Jesus foretold. Jerusalem and Israel were scattered to the winds for almost 2000 years."

"Thus I do NOT believe in “replacement” but I do believe it is the CHURCH that is the `apple of God´s eye´ in the New Covenant era – not Israel."

Yet he doesn't even mention the prophesied restoration of Israel after the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled. If he mentions what occured to Israel in 70 A.D why doesn't he stay on the bus and mention what many of the prophets forecast regarding the final state of Israel? The book of Isaiah ends with a restored Israel living in the land. Jeremiah is full of references to a eventually restored Israel. Ezekiel ends with a restored Israel living in the land. Daniel ends with a restored Israel living in the land. Hosea ends with a restored Israel. Joel, Amos and Obadiah end with a restored Israel living in the land. Micah, Zephaniah and Haggai end with a restored Israel. Zechariah ends with a restored Israel living in the land. Malachi speaks of the great day of the Lord coming which occurs before the restoration of Israel spoken of by so many of the prophets. So when Paul speaks of God gathering a remnant and speaks of a day when "all Israel will be saved" did he automatically cancel out the promises of the prophets regarding Israel and the land? How is spiritual salvation in Christ (the greatest treasure) supposed to automatically cancel out a majority of the writings of the prophets regarding a redeemed and restored Israel living in the land? Mr Strom's comments about the severe divorce between God and Israel left out the prophesied future healing of this troubled marriage.

He also wrote,

"Sadly though, there seems to be a kind of “Israel-mania” in the church today which I believe is very distorted. I do support the nation of Israel strongly, but for the Christian I believe it is the CHURCH that should be the focus, far more than the physical state of Israel."

"We “mix” covenants at out peril. And this is a cause of huge confusion amongst Christians today. We are “New Covenant” people – not Old. So why do some act as though physical Israel is our focus? It is one thing to love and support Israel. But quite another to get caught up in this “mania” that tries to ‘mix’ the two Covenants together. This has actually become a strong deception – and is leading many astray."

Me: It's no secret that the church is God's focus because people enter the church through placing their faith in the cross of Christ and its redemptive work. Yet the study of eschatology and the last things is a study of where that cross bought church will end up and what the ramifications for the earth will be. The study of the last things is the study of Christ putting the finishing touches on His redemptive work began at His first coming. If future plans include the nation of Israel it may not be Israel mania at all to see and study how these things will come to pass. No one doing so is trying to avoid the cross or replace it from its centrality in the life of the church.

I think a case can be made that Strom is mixing covenants just like he has stated others do at their peril. Meaning, he has obviously imposed the Mosaic covenant of Law on the Abrahamic covenant. The Mosaic covenant was never intended to be that by which Israel was to possess the land. The Mosaic covenant set down the conditions for permanent possession of the land. The land will only be possessed under the Abrahamic covenant of faith.

Quoting,

"It is important to understand that the Abrahamic covenant finds its fulfillment in the new covenant, notwithstanding the intervening, temporal Mosaic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant promised the land, and the intervening Mosaic covenant involved temporal association with the land, yet the new covenant declares ultimate fulfillemnt of that promise to Abraham with its specific references to the land, and not some extrapolated, abstract universalism. In particular, the new covenant describes Israel's return to the land from dispersion as "the land that I gave to your forefathers" (Jer 31:38-40, Ezek 11:17, 36:24,28)."

"So in terms of roots, the OT as a whole always originally identifies the land with the Abrahamic covenant, but never the subsequent Mosaic covenant. Certainly the Mosaic covenant draws on the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant (Exod 3:6-8,15-17, 13:5, 33:1-3, Lev 20:24, Num 13:27), but the Mosaic covenant can never nullify that which was inaugurated with unilatertal finality 430 years earlier (Gal 3:17). While the NT frequently describes the Mosaic old covenant as being comprised of shadows and types, the terminology is never directly applied to the promise character of the Abrahamic covenant, despite its sign of circumcision (Col 2:16-17, Heb 8:3-6, 10:1). Circumcision was the sign of the covenant that God made with Abraham, but the land was never regarded as a sign of the covenant; rather, it was intrinsic to the covenant, and this is a most vital distinction to keep in mind (Gen 12:1,7). This is the reason the land is distinguished from Mosaic typology - it is an abiding reality in itself."

(From "Future Israel" - by Barry Horner - copyright 1999, 226-227).

Mr. Strom warned about confusing the covenants as if people interested in a future for national Israel under Christ are doing so. No one is saying Israel get the land because they will be able to keep the Mosaic covenantal conditions for keeping the land. The promisory nature of the Abrahamic ocvenant is another thing though. It was revealed in scripture from the very first get go that Israel abiding in the land would be a product of the Abrahamic covenant. Entering the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant for Israel will be when they finally place faith in the cross of Jesus of Nazareth. No one who believes in a future for Israel has ever been trying to get around that. God bless him but Mr. Strom may be the one confusing the covenants by imposing the temporal conditions of the Mosaic covenant on the Abrahamic covenant. It seems to be a common but accepted mistake when this issue is debated.

24 - For I will take you from among the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land.

25 - Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

26 - Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

27 - And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

28 - And you will live on the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. (Ezekiel 36:24-28).

Verse 27, walking in God's statues and being careful to observe His ordinances were the conditions for keeping the land. It's having God's Spirit within them (verse 27) that will bring about a regenerative inward change within Israel that will spiritually enable them to walk after God and His statues which were the conditions for keeping the land. And one doesn't get the Spirit within without going through the cross. Embracing the cross of Christ by faith and placing faith in it causes believers to inherit the Spirit within. It will be believing in the cross FIRST that will eventually enable the godly restoration of Israel. It's not about God showing favortism at all. It's up to non pre-millennialists to show why "you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers" means something other than living in the land that God gave to their forefathers.

Well, in the words of Mr. Strom: "Israel in the physical. The Church in the spiritual. Makes perfect sense, does it not? As I said, if this is not so, then large chunks of Scripture become utterly incomprehensible."

God had always a remnant there. Israel is the one that wrestled with God, and then was born again. Maybe that's where the incomprehensible part starts. Israel does not only mean physical land, it also means "people of God". The ones both covenants are made with.

That born again remnant on location might be very small in number at the current time, what doesn't change a thing about any promises made by God. They are made to them. Plus to those that will join them at a later time.

Just the other day I've seen a map of the size of the original land promise made to Abraham. Shocking, it's much larger than the current state. So quite a few things have to happen until then. Did they already start happening? Yes the preparations that will lead to the time of Jacob's trouble are already underway. Just watch Syria, Putin sponsors Assad, Kerry sponsors illegal rebels including Al.Qua., Teheran has 10K soldiers on the floor in Syria already, and Israel fights against chemical weapon storages that are also used to be sent to next door Lebanon. They all just wait for the spark to start a major showdown.