Second Child of 'Faith Healing' Parents Dies

By MICHAEL RUBINKAM and MARYCLAIRE DALE Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA April 23, 2013 (AP)

A couple serving probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor could face new charges now that another son has died.

Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith healing. They lost their 8-month-old son, Brandon, last week after he suffered from diarrhea and breathing problems for at least a week, and stopped eating. Four years ago, another son died from bacterial pneumonia.

Prosecutors said Tuesday that a decision on charges will be made after they get the results of an autopsy.

Catherine Schaible's attorney, Mythri Jayaraman, cautioned against a rush to judgment, and said the couple are good parents deeply distraught over the loss of another child.

"There are way more questions than answers at this point. We haven't seen the autopsy report. We don't know the cause of death of this child," Jayaraman told The Associated Press. "What we do know is Mr. and Mrs. Schaible are distraught, they are grieving, they are tremendously sad about the loss of their most recent baby."

A man who answered the phone at a listing for Herbert Schaible declined to comment and hung up.

A jury convicted the Schaibles of involuntary manslaughter in the January 2009 death of their 2-year-old son, Kent. The boy's symptoms had included coughing, congestion, crankiness and a loss of appetite. His parents said he was eating and drinking until the last day, and they had thought he was getting better.

A Case of Murder or Faith Healing?

The Schaibles were sentenced to 10 years' probation.

At a hearing Monday, a judge told the couple they had violated the terms of their probation, noting the Schaibles had told investigators that they prayed to God to make Brandon well instead of seeking medical attention.

"You did that once, and the consequences were tragic," Philadelphia Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said, according to the Philadelphia Daily News.

Prosecutors on Monday sought to have the couple jailed, but Lerner permitted them to remain free because their seven other children had been placed in foster care.

"He feels they are a danger to their children — not to the community, but to their own children," Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore, who prosecuted the couple in 2010, said Tuesday.

Herbert Schaible, 44, and his 43-year-old wife grew up in the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia and have served as teachers there. The church's website has a sermon titled "Healing — From God or Medicine?" that quotes Bible verses purportedly forbidding Christians from visiting doctors or taking medicine.

"It is a definite sin to trust in medical help and pills; and it is real faith to trust on the Name of Jesus for healing," says the message, from last May.

A phone message left with the church on Tuesday was not immediately returned.

The church's pastor said in 2010 that the couple had never received medical care themselves beyond the help of a lay midwife who attends home births.

The Schaibles did take their children for medical checkups as required by their probation, according to Jayaraman, the defense attorney. Jayaraman said that Brandon was checked by a doctor when he was 10 days old, but she did not know whether the child had seen a doctor since.

"Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday. "Whether their religion had anything to do with the death of their baby, we don't know."

———

Rubinkam reported from northeast Pennsylvania.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/2nd-child-pa-couple-dies-praying-19020607

This story has been making waves in some other forums I frequent. It leaves one scratching their heads because on one hand it appears to make God look as if He is silent. On the other hand we have a Fundamentalist family who seem to be as the word of faith crowd in refusing medical treatment because God will heal.

At what point does something such as this become dilusional for Christians?
I know preachers have preached from the pulpit 'By His Stripes we are Healed' at this used to be a big verse thundered from the pulpit but yet it doesn't happen as some preacher preach it.

No doubt this story will cause many who don't believe in God or in religion to strengthen their own personal stance on what they believe. Yet it causes Christians to use excuses for me. i.e. one person said 'if these people were true Christians....'. What is that supposed to mean? It sounds like a judgment while trying to repair a wound to show that God is still there but for whatever reason didn't heal their kid. I find it to be an immature response and yet how does a mature Christian respond to such a thing?

I really wonder what the Christian communities response to this is because no doubt we are going to see more people fall away from their faith as a result of what they read in this story. I struggle within my own being alot but not because of this story.

How tragically sad, really tragic.

If these are sincere believers, who are willing to put there faith into action and 'sacrifice' their children for their belief, they are better than I am.

Not sure I would go that far in standing for what I believe especially when its not an issue of salvation.

Got me thinking about the first century believers whose children were mauled by wild animals because they didn't want to deny the faith. Thats really a deep revelation of his love to keep them satnding.

Your faith should be a "part" of your healing, along with doctors, and medicine and etc. "Matthew 9:12" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

The question also arises, can we call this people Christians and just misguided? Or do we see them as misguided altogether?

At what point should a Christian believe God is going to heal? Meaning, how does faith work in this process v. leaving it in the hands of a doctor to work for a fix?

Hi MrBillPro,

MrBillPro wrote ////Your faith should be a "part" of your healing, along with doctors, and medicine and etc. "Matthew 9:12" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.////

That is streching Matthew 9:12 out of its context.

Hi DEADn

DEADn wrote ////The question also arises, can we call this people Christians and just misguided? Or do we see them as misguided altogether?////

Is their anything that you found from the artical that would suggest that these people are not Christians?

Whom is to say that they are misguided ?

Their first son died of bacterial pneumonia. pneumonia is the leading cause of death for this age group.

Whom can say that if they had done as King Asa and trusted in the physicians that thier children would have lived ?

Many Whom have trusted in the Physicians have also lost their children.

Hi ZekeO

ZekeO wrote ////How tragically sad, really tragic.

If these are sincere believers, who are willing to put there faith into action and 'sacrifice' their children for their belief, they are better than I am.

Not sure I would go that far in standing for what I believe especially when its not an issue of salvation.////

This is a difficult issue, one that I struggle with, At this point in my walk, I would have done as everyone else and taken my children to the doctor, but I do not at all condemn these parents.
I do not feel that any Christian should condemn them.

proudpapa...That is stretching Matthew 9:12 out of its context.

Well i just read the bible at face value, i am not a teacher of the word, so Jesus said the sick are the ones that need a doctor, that's how i read it and that's my opinion. If you have any doubt, talk to Jesus and get back and tell us what he really meant.

RE////Well i just read the bible at face value, i am not a teacher of the word, so Jesus said the sick are the ones that need a doctor, that's how i read it and that's my opinion. If you have any doubt, talk to Jesus and get back and tell us what he really meant.////

He is using an analogy, that is more than evident by the passage.

When Paul says "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" We do not read it at face value and say that Paul was indorsing physical fighting, nor was Paul revealing himself as a Sports Enthusiast (even though some sports enthusiast will try to argue the such from the passage) In both cases the analogy being used is not an endorsement of the subject matter choosen, to imply the such is to do gymnastics with the scripture.

[quote}
The church's website has a sermon titled "Healing — From God or Medicine?" that quotes Bible verses purportedly forbidding Christians from visiting doctors or taking medicine.

"It is a definite sin to trust in medical help and pills; and it is real faith to trust on the Name of Jesus for healing," says the message, from last May.

proudpapa
This is part of the article that shows that their decisions is a bit skewed. If what they believed is this and they kid died then we have the presume this was God ordained that their kid was not healed? And yet if they had taken the kid to the doctor, chances are the kid would be alive. Where is the balancing of scales here?

This is the kind of story which can and will cause some to depart from their faith or just back away from this kind of religious belief because of the outcome. Either God isn't a healer, or He choose not to heal this kid or God does not exist in the first place. These are the conclusions I come to from the article.

I think it is very dangerous for Christians to bury their head in the sand with incidents such as this and think 'Well, God has a higher plan in this' when society sees it has a type of abuse and especially after this happened to a 2nd child of theirs. Some will see it as child abuse and yet how can you not say it is?

I would urge everyone to search the First Century Gospel Church website: http://www.fcgchurch.org/

Unstead of casting stones of judgment, We should naturally have a deep hurt and God given compassion for this couple as they have lost a second child and have had the state take their 7 other children away from thier loving, nurturing parents, and given to the care of the foster care system (This has to be a nightmare!) not to mention that this couple may go to prison, for no other reason, than that they had faith to trust on the Name of Jesus for healing instead of faith in modern medicine. (that is persecution!)

Will we be as the World or will we recognize when our brethren are in hurt and need of our support.

Does anyone have any suggestions of how we could help this couple ?

Here is the basic tenants for what the the First Century Gospel Church believe:

What We Believe:1.We believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible, and authoritative Word of God (which is a written revelation of His divine will).

2.That there is only one God who eternally exists in three persons (called the Trinity): Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3.We believe in the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, His sinless life on earth, His divine miracles, His atonement for sin on the cross, His resurrection to life, His ascension to the right hand of God, and in His personal return to earth in power to rapture God's true children.

4.That for the salvation of the lost and sinful, repentance and faith in Christ provides regeneration by the Holy Spirit and that a continuing faith in Christ is the only way of salvation.

5.We believe in the on-going ministry of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the heart of every true believer to give the ability to live a godly life in Christ Jesus. Also that His power to convict, to guide, and to enlighten are available to believers today.

6.We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost... the saved unto the resurrection of Eternal Life, and the lost unto the resurrection of eternal suffering.

7.That everyone (of every nation, tribe, people and language) is equal in the sight of God, so all true believers are unified members of the body of Christ.

8.We believe that it is important to practice water baptism by triune immersion, and serve the Lord's Supper on a regular basis. We do not believe that either of these practices is essential for salvation, but the commemorating of them gives evidence of our faith in Christ.

9.That it is the personal responsibility of the church (and individual Christians in their own life) to witness for Christ and to share the gospel however led to do so (and whenever the Holy Spirit presents the opportunity).

http://www.fcgchurch.org/Main%20Pages/Beliefs-Basic%20Tenants.html

I believe that God wants us to understand His word. I think many many Many times we try to over think it & rationalize this & compare that & the confusion sets in. There are many things I don't understand nor will I but I just move along & pray that if the Lord desires me to understand it, He'll give me the wisdom. If not, I move along knowing I'll never know the mind of God. I love studying it, I'm very simple & if He chooses to show me a meaning to something, well Hallelujah but if He doesn't, He has His reasons or I just figure I can live without it. I think knowing it completely would puff us up. So, I just remain a fool for Christ & retain the wisdom He desires me to attain.

5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Here Paul commands timothy to take something for his infirmities ....

I feel not giving / taking medicine is like saying "Im not going to get a job, and God will provide for Me..."

It is writtin " Thou shall not tempt thy LORD thy God"

We must not put trust in Science and Medicine, but in the one whom created all things, and provides all things, and God has provided medicine and Science for the health of his Church and kingdom..
May God recieve the Glory
andy

When does it cross the line of parents using Faith in God for healing vs. medicine for healing? This couple lost 2 kids because medicine could have saved their from their sickness but they believed God would heal them. For whatever reason God did not heal them. Because the state is taking away their kids is this really a state of persecution on part of the state or is it child abuse on behalf of the parents?

Let's say a Jehovah Witness' child needs a blood transfusion and it will save the child. Parents refuse and the kid dies. It happens a 2nd time as well. Is this child abuse or religious persecution? I see it as both. On one hand the State much respect the faith of the parents and yet on the other hand there is medicine to help but it pushed away. Does common sense come into play anywhere?

Is it balanced believing to believe that God will heal every sickness in a family?

Re: ///Will we be as the World or will we recognize when our brethren are in hurt and need of our support.

Does anyone have any suggestions of how we could help this couple ? ///

praying for them, and encouraging them, that God is still a good God..
what is their church already doing?
are they helping with the cost of burials?
are they providing them with lawyers?

andy

I find this situation disturbing. It upsets me that some gov agency has the authority to tell me when we should seek medical help. This is a personal matter and if for any reason good parents opt to forgo it, that should be their choice. They should not have to fear any gov agency breathing down their neck for the decision you make concerning health care. It is like a lot of other stupid laws - like forbidding a dairy farmer from selling raw cow milk! Stupidier then dumb. (I grew up on a dairy farm and we used raw milk all the time and it never made us sick or crazy - maybe that is, oh never mind...)

If a couple for Biblical reasons decide to forgo medical assistance, this is their right and privilege. They did not sin to do so, neither would they have sinned getting the help, either. It is a matter of opinion and in their case conviction.

My opinion...and I do have a few...:-)

ginnyrose

This is sad but not because a child died. The real issue who we are accountable to. Ultimately, we will all stand before God and every thought, word and deed will be tried. If it did not originate from the Father, we are accountable. When we try to weigh the motives based on external ethical criteria, we get knotted up be because we are not walking as Christ did, judging not based on the seen but on what comes down from the Father. At the same time, we must discern the spirits to know whether what we are hearing is from above. I've had experiences where I have done something that appears good, or repeatedly tried to, only to have the Word or Spirit rebuke me for trying to do it for my own righteousness. Some of these things were things that friends had been lead into because of something God was working on in their life but not mine. There have been other times where I haven't obeyed because of fear and 'waited on God' though He had already shown me otherwise. It's really important that we aren't following the traditions of men, even if they emphasize neglected Truth, because emphasis requires elaboration which can lead exaggeration which transforms the Truth into a lie. If the suffering this couple is under is godly then they will perseverance and develop hope. May we have the same mind in us.

A wise man will hear and increase in learning, and a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel. -Proverbs 1:5

I am ok with parents having faith for themselves and others (children), but in the same way, I do not support condemning other Christians for seeking medical assistance for THEIR children because they "do not have enough faith."

Because the people that condemn others for "not having enough faith", are usually not doing too well, themselves.

If a true word from God has not been given to us and faith is not in our heart regarding the situation we find ourselves in, it will be more tragic if we start living by the letter because of condemnation from other groups.

Better to just fall on the mercy of God and tell Him you lack the faith that others say you SHOULD have. There is no condemnation with being real and honest before the Lord.

Building a church or ministry on one particular teaching is already a problem.

I found this link which proves once again what we are seeing is a growing problem in the USA.

http://www.news10.net/news/article/242734/2/Sacramento-couple-fights-to-get-their-baby-boy-back-from-authorities

I personaly have not come to the conclusion that I would say that something like peneciline is a sin (even though I do believe some vaccines are morally wrong).

But I have respect for these parents.
many may say well their faith alone did not work, But lets think about this, these parents where brought up this way, undoubtly many many times thru out their life they probably could testify of Gods power to heal.

We see thru a glass darkly, lets be slow to judge and quick to show compassion

I will add this also,.. from their church website I do not get an impression that their entire church is built on this one Idea, but just one belief amoung others.
I again encourage all to visit the link that I posted to their church website and see if you find anything significantly heretic from a biblical perspective.

If these are brethren than we should naturally have a unction of compassion for them, if we do not and they are true brethren, than their is something wrong with us!

To claim them heratic because they felt a conviction not to use medicine would be to also claim preachers presented on SI like Smith Wigglesworth also as heratic whom said:

“From henceforth no medicine, no doctors, no drugs of any kind shall come into our house.” It is very easy when in health and strength to make pledges and utter vows, but it is being faithful when the time of testing comes that counts. Little did we know that shortly we were going to have such a test." - Smith Wigglesworth

We do not know what God is trying to show them nor us. But Lets not be as Jobs friends and speculate into those things that we do not know!

I grew up in Christ in an assembly of saints in Indiana a good many years ago(30 or so) where a few family s had children die while they believed the Lord for healing, these saints went to prison for those infant deaths. I guess its a matter of ones personal faith and conscience before God. I have observed in scripture some insight, like the woman with the blood issue, she had spent all that she had with no cure, she touched Jesus and was healed,discovered, than sent away in peace.Jesus did not condemn her for using the Doctors of her time.
In the years that have followed I have often reflected back on those days. I saw so many powerful things happen that can only be explained by "It had to have been the hand of God", type of explanations, however in the midst of such wonderful things, children died while entire congregations and parents of these precious children believed that God based on His Word would bring healing.
I think what that lead me to conclude for my own household was a certain set of rules that I went by.If I have faith I have it to myself, so in matters of Life and death for myself, it was in the Lord s hands, for my children? We always taught healing but never forced it on them and felt that part of our duty before God was to do all we could to provide mercy for our children. There came a few times when our children as they were growing up concluded that they needed to stand in faith and trust the Lord for themselves and in thoughs times the Lord did bring healing and it was a wonderful testimony to our children individually.My wife and I have always tried to lead by example and employ the rule "follow me", the same as Jesus did.I could write a book on this entire subject matter but wont. The wisdom of God is.....and I have found where God is silent in a specific circumstance...if I have no wisdom..can taste none of wisdom's fruit..than depending on the time frame or circumstances.plain old horse sense is the rule of thumb.
I do believe that these parents are Christians and that they need our prayers, love and support. This is indeed a sorrowful circumstance and very troubling. It does show the power of the government and its reach into our very lives, which should acts as a wake-up call to many. With the future of health care becoming the law of the land we will see played out just what other freedoms we have lost in the days ahead.

Thank you for your testimony dohzman. I am aware of a large ministry in Indiana in the 70s and 80s that had a wonderful elder/teacher. I really loved his writings and still do. They had a lot of controversy with kids dying for lack of medical care. The leader of this group also died because he refused medical care, believing God would heal him. These things are really very difficult and yes we should show compassion and love. I appreciate proudpapa's stance, too. I am glad that this other thing that happened recently is not a result of a ministry built on eschewing medical help as from the Devil.

There is not a whole lot to say about these things.

Best just to let time go by and observe the fruit that came out of it.

Wisdom is usually vindicated by her children.

Pilgrim

Learning and discerning today, with lessons from the past.
http://www.yesteryear.clunette.com/faithassembly1.html

I had obtained several books in 1980 from Hobart Freeman and I still have them today. I have been blessed by much of his teaching, but could never reconcile the deaths of 90 people in his congregation, because they refused medicine or medical aid saying it was all from the Devil. This was tragic and preventable.

Two weeks before this matter was to come to court, Freeman died at his Shoe Lake home of bronchial pneumonia and congestive heart failure complicated by an ulcerated gangrenous leg, which in the weeks preceding had forced him to preach sitting down. He had refused all medical help, even to the removal of the bandages so his leg could be cleaned.

Previously in Faith for Healing, Freeman had said that "To claim healing for the body and then to continue to take medicine is not following our faith with corresponding action ... When genuine faith is present, it alone will be sufficient for it will take the place of medicines and other aids."

Freeman's death was not reported for at least 13 hours due to an all-night prayer vigil for his resurrection. He was buried in a pine box with no public viewing and no graveside or memorial service. For many months afterwards, his wife left his suit over the end of the bed, expecting him to one day walk in and have need of it.

In May 1983, the Chicago Tribune ran a story on David Gilmore whose 15-month-old son, Dustin Graham, had died five years previously from an easily treatable form of meningitis. Following church teaching, Gilmore and his wife had relied solely on prayer for their son's healing. Gilmore said he knew of twelve other children who had died under similar circumstances. The Tribune further identified fifty-two deaths from Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Ohio and Kentucky which, they asserted, were attributable to church teaching. A few months later, ABC television's Nightline reported that pregnant women following church teaching died at a rate eight times the national average and their children at three times. Nightline further identified nineteen states and five countries where deaths had occurred which, they asserted, were attributable to church teaching.

Eventually, Hobart Freeman was charged with aiding and abetting one of these deaths by what was described as "negligent homicide". At least ninety members of the congregation died during Freeman's ministry,[39] which Daniel McConnell described as tragic and preventable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobart_Freeman

Many former members of the Glory Barn still meet online at overcomersonline.com

I think we have to have laws about such things. To me it has nothing to do with "persecuting believers."

If an adult believer wants to forego medical treatment for their own illness, that is their choice. When it comes to necessary medical care that is readily available for a very ill child, I do not believe they should simply be allowed to make that decision for the child. I am not saying this applies to all areas of a child's life (obviously) but when it is a matter of life and death I believe they must avail themselves of medical help. When the child becomes an adult, they can make that decision for themselves.

I personally believe in this case that Jesus was yelling "get the child to a doctor" but the call was not heeded. It is not fair to state that since the child died it was the Lord's will, and would have died even if medical treatment had been sought. That is a cop out position. We are to be people of faith, but also people with common sense. I have heard many testimonies of doctors and nurses coming to Jesus because of the strong witness of a believer that seeks their services.

I wonder if these people take their car to a mechanic when it breaks down, or simply pray that the transmission will be miraculously restored?

I have seen so many things, where do I start, I now live in Ohio, and was on a business trip in St. Louis Mo. when my van broke down, I had to have it towed to the complex where I was to setup for a Sportsman Show and sell products for the next 3 days, This was a Thursday afternoon when it was towed to the complex.Not knowing what to do I simply prayed and unloaded the van and asked another vendor who I knew if they could give me a ride back and forth to the complex every day. I didn't know what else to do so I just worked, to be sure I did cry out to Jesus for His help. Sunday morning the Lord woke me with a song from the psalms, it was a promise of deliverance. I knew it would be fine. I worked all day Sunday and afterwards loaded the van and laid my hands on the engine and got in the van, it started right up and I drove it home and the next day straight to my mechanics shop where he said everything inside the motor was completely gone and that it was impossible for my van to even be running.I cant explain it, it didn't make sense, however, The Lord brought me home as He promised...I didn't need to fill up with gas but once and that was 45 mins from home and that was because I couldn't understand why the gas gauge never moved.
As to Jesus yelling at these folks to get their children to a doctor, I can not answer that.I can say that in all things the Lord is just and righteous, if the parents missed God, that's between them and Him. As for a mechanic? Done it both ways, it seems the Lord enjoys surprising us with just how diverse He can be, sometimes He may send an angel to just push ya down the road to where you need to be.:) blessings

I dust off Freeman s books and read them again every now and than:)

I liked your post about the engine, dohzman. And yes, I don't want new laws to regulate parenthood. As you say, it is between the parents and Jesus. It seems every new "catastrophe" today, invites more and more of Babylonian (as Hezwelling said) control in our lives.

Freeman had a lot of great teachings and it just goes to show that we cannot codify the scriptures into theological systems. They don't bring life. Only the Spirit gives life. We, each one of us, need to hear His voice and act upon it, only, not men's.

I also find it quite interesting how a lot of spiritual movements came or come out of Indiana. But, that's another thread.

Pilgrim

Dohzman--

Please do not misunderstand me. I DO believe in miracles today, including medical healings and vehicle healings :)

I heard an anecdotal story about a hippie who was saved during the Jesus movement and he put water in his gas tank because he had to get to a meeting and had no gas-- and the vehicle ran on water. I am sure things like this do happen- although rarely.

Even in the Bible, which covers thousands of years of history, there are relatively few miraculous events described. When you average them out over the number of years there really aren't that many.

So when it comes to deathly ill children, I don't think we can afford to expect the miraculous. It is a pretty risky endeavor. And like I said, I do believe it is criminal behavior to not get a very sick child medical help if it is readily available. Doesn't God understand such things? Do we think He is offended if we take a sick child to the doctor? There is no hinting in scripture that Jesus forbade the use of doctors.

I shared the testimony of our daughter's healing from cancer on a previous thread, and I think that some of the comments brought a good balance between faith healing, and acting in presumption.

- https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41285&forum=44&9

Blessings

its pretty difficult to write something and not be at least mis-understood by one person, I really did not mean anything by telling about the miracle of my van it was just in sharing, you know how someone will say something and it sparks something in your life that you had happen or remembered, it was like that.The car doctor comment so to speak. When our children were really young we fully took advantage of what the medical profession had to offer, but were from time to time placed in a position where medical practices could do nothing to help and than we called out to Jesus for salvation(gk) and the Lord touched our children s bodies and brought healing.
The one thing that we have to be careful of is this one statement, "what ever is not of faith is sin", so to some people the seeking out of medical help could be sin.And also I am not sure if you have been to any third world country, but the medical aspect of life there does not exist as it does here. In those settings either the Lord brings healing or the individual leaves this world and enters upon the next. There is no plan B for the larger portion of the world, so for something in a subject like this what we really are talking about is more culture and customs and morays(sp?). I do believe that America is fast coming to the place where either God will bring healing or a person will die in this life waiting to see a doctor, who do we go after than, who will mainstream media blame , or jail than?That will start happening in the next year or two at most due to recent policies. What than?I was at a meeting in Freeman s
assembly(wow...late 80 s...now i feel old) where someone spoke prophetically about our present times and with clear details spoke on the current medical state in America and the political climate generally. To be honest I sat there thinking no way. As the years have marched by and especially the last 4 its has quickly become a reality, and so I can fully understand how someone could conclude that what these parents did was wrong, but as for me?I'm seeing things come to pass that I heard would but never really believed could, if that make any sense? It s because of that history and the Word of God I heard spoken that I have watched over these many years that makes me all the more slow about what I am seeing in these days.

Anyway I bet your hippie is the same guy who developed the hydrogen cars:) probably gettin stinkin rich off it....peace bro and God Bless

I also find it quite interesting how a lot of spiritual movements came or come out of Indiana. But, that's another thread.

That my dear friend is an understatement, with allot of media and church media attacking everything from the basic movements to the doctrines that came out of those movements. The influence alone has been global and still is today.

What a wonderful testimony...God Bless

by jochbaptist on 2013/4/29 11:48:22

I shared the testimony of our daughter's healing from cancer on a previous thread, and I think that some of the comments brought a good balance between faith healing, and acting in presumption.

- https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41285&forum=44&9

Blessings

It is always difficult to swim against the tide. This is never more truer than it happens to be in your own fellowship and there is a very strong personality leading it. I can only imagine what it must be like to be in a fellowship where one might think they are a failure if they don't "step out in faith" and "believe God's word" or on the other hand, everyone has been taught that if you "prove God", He will never fail you. Teaching sometimes borders on unspoken "dares". I think sometimes our "proving" can actually be "tempting God" (presumption) as jochbaptist alluded to.

by dohzman on 2013/4/29 14:15:24

I also find it quite interesting how a lot of spiritual movements came or come out of Indiana. But, that's another thread.

That my dear friend is an understatement, with allot of media and church media attacking everything from the basic movements to the doctrines that came out of those movements. The influence alone has been global and still is today.

Hey there, dohz, I knew you would think it was an understatement. I was chuckling as I read your post. Only those who know what has started in Indiana would agree with you (and I) that it is an understatement.

By the way, God does many things and it behooves us to not put Him in a box (we do this with each other, too).

Brother Andrew testifies that his volkswagen beetle was running without spark plug wires.

H.B Garlock, author of "Before We Kill and Eat You" and missionary to the Congo was running from cannibals when he came to a large river. Next thing he knew, he was on the other side of it. Hallelujah! God still translates like He did with Philip. And why not??

Pilgrim

7 children have been taken from their loving nurturing Christian family and put in the care of the foster care system.

Studies show 40% of the U.S. homeless were once in foster care and that former foster children are the fastest growing segment of the homeless population.

In addition, researchers who tracked foster children for 12 to 18 months after they aged out found that:
•27% of the males and 10% of the females were incarcerated,
•33% required public assistance, and
•37% had not finished high school.
•50% were unemployed

There's also the fact the foster care system can be so hard on children physically and emotionally because a lot of foster kids are shuffled around, ostracized, or just plain forgotten. As a result, foster children are at increased risk for things like low self-esteem, depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, developmental problems, eating disorders, and a general inability to form healthy relationships with others.

A study by Johns Hopkins University found the incidence of sexual abuse is four times higher in the foster care system than the general population. Furthermore, children in foster care are 11 times more likely to suffer physical abuse and five times more likely to children in the general population.
http://www.orphancoalition.org/new/care/challenges-in-foster-care.php

Edit: PS If this does not tear up your heart, Than you need a heart transplant (I write this with no one specific in mind)

your stats are so very sad, I think the problem really comes in to play with the information actually getting to places like the Courts and Judges...we as a society really need to focus on Educating our Leaders so that they can make better informed decisions rather than allow mainstream media or even local media to affect or influence specific cases using whats called "media bias", which we have seen and will continue to see, the mainstream media is like the dogs that ate Jezebel s remains after she was thrown down from her place, they are always digging for garbage through garbage with an "intent"(agenda) rather than being objective in their reporting.
But for the Christian we have promises like, "all things work together for good......" as a Community of saints we need to pray for our brother and sister and their local assembly that the Lord would make even their enemy to be at peace with them and who knows what the Lord can do with this situation. No matter what it is a very hard thing and one not easily taken up.

H.B Garlock, author of "Before We Kill and Eat You" and missionary to the Congo was running from cannibals when he came to a large river. Next thing he knew, he was on the other side of it. Hallelujah! God still translates like He did with Philip. And why not??

I chucked..laughed and rejoiced at the above and the more I think on it I may just have a shouting spell!!!!

proudpapa,

It saddens me how our government is using every "catastrophe" to take more and more liberty away from U.S. Citizens.

Sometimes I wonder if what is believed to be a Christian family is really a loving family. It seems more like a label and because of the label we assume.

This is like saying every Christian marriage is perfect while there as many divorces amongst Christians as there are in the secular world.

There is a fine line between a child being sick and not taking him to the doctor and a child being sick and taking him to the doctor and he gets well. If God doesn't answer this prayer are the parents still justified in what they did? I don't think they are justified yet it is their religious convictions. Where is the line?

Hi DEADn

///Sometimes I wonder if what is believed to be a Christian family is really a loving family. It seems more like a label and because of the label we assume.///

All we have is the artical which was not defending the parents, A statement in it said : "Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday. "Whether their religion had anything to do with the death of their baby, we don't know."

and we have their Church Website in which I challenged all to find something significantly heretic from a biblical perspective.

So to doubt that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents is without merit, and is only an excuse to shut up the bowels of compassion that every true believer should have for these parents.

I agree with proudpapa, when everything is said and done it will ultimately come down to their faith the belief system. Seen it so many times. What happens in media is they take a bad situation or circumstance, which may occur less than 1% of 1% and they use that to blow up a circumstance and make it to appear as though it was the norm and happening every where. And they feed peoples fears, likes, dislikes, bias, and if they can not, they will create the emotion that they want to instill in their listeners/readers, that's why it is so dangerous to accept everything at face value that is heard or read in mainstream media.
In the Boston bombing if you were to follow the on site reporting networks what they did was take you on a roller coaster ride using information in order to form your opinion the way they felt it should be. They literally lead the masses, the trouble is the opposite which would be the conspiracy theorists and that's also not to healthy.
That said, we as a community of believers should accept and embrace they parents by faith and apply the Word of God that says not to judge nothing before the time (if we are rushing to judgement), but personally speaking I would rather be still and if given the chance be a supporter.It does become a difficult situation given the circumstances and the loss of life, however there has been as many children die under a doctors care as has died without no matter what the circumstance, read a report once but do not have the time to look it up. We do not question though s parents character or love. Any way time for work...God Bless.

and we have their Church Website in which I challenged all to find something significantly heretic from a biblical perspective.

Didn't I post something about this? Not necessarily that it was heretical but that it showed a danger that the church didn't believe in medical avenues to sickness. God is the Healer?
How much of an absolute truth is this? In theory it is absolute but in practice it doesn't seem to be for if it were we should be seeing many healings taking place, wouldn't we? Where is the balance between God being our Healer and using medicine as well? Even Paul admonished that a little wine is good for the belly.