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Wonderful exposition on Holiness.
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A Call to Holiness- Nancy Leigh DeMoss
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sermonindex
Its false teaching and nothing more than legalism and will never lead to true revival.
She even quotes from that great opposer to the holiness movement and who wrote a book opposing it called inappropriately Holiness - J C Ryle and other Calvinists but then strangely quotes Andrew Murray a holiness preacher who opposed `gradual sanctification`. It takes a spiritually enlightened person to know this important distinction.
"Try harder! Try Harder!" is the message. But you cannot improve the flesh. If one still sins then the old man has not been crucified or rather, one has not seen what Christ did on the cross for us. One has not understood that the problem of sin was dealt the death blow and all it takes is faith that Christ delivers us from ALL unrighteouness, which makes a gradual sanctification a denial of the power of God.
The preacher is saying instead that holiness is in the intention but will not be realised completely until death which is nowhere in the Bible. Please tell me where it says that a Christian cannot stop sinning in this life, without misquoting Roamns 7 that is.
What a tragedy that she is speaking at a Campus Crusade of Christ meeting, and misleading young folk into legalism.
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sermonindex
Don`t you realise that something has to change. Many are preaching this message including a brother on this site, and nothing changes. People know that they should be walking closer to Christ but the message they are getting does not interpret into their lives. Their struggle with sin continues.
It is a know fact of life that if something is not working then you need to change tactics. This time it is doctrine.
What I am saying is not just me - it was the teaching of the holiness movement that has all but disappeared, and this new or rather old, method is popular but things just continue in the church with its lack of love and power.
A voice crying out in the wilderness is the way forward. There are a few voices but no-one listens.
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murrcolr
During the sermonindex conference in Scotland a few years back there was a question and answer session with a panel of people answering questions.
I asked the question do we expect a revival without being entirely sanctified.
One on the panel a Irish man answered with a puzzled look on his face we have to die before that happens.
The message has been forgotten, you can be sanctified entirely on earth, you can be Holy during this life, but it does come through effort...
Sanctification is by faith......
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sermonindex
Saints how on earth do you get legalism out of this message? I have listened to it and the sister is right on. She presents a Biblical teaching on the need to be holy. So I ask again where is legalism?
If anything, Nancy Leigh De Moss is preaching a message that clearly needs to be preached from the pulpit. And that is the need for the believing church to be holy.
I have found when those few believers cry out for holiness the cry from the majority is legalism. This is why the hyper grace and sinless perfection doctrines are so poular. And herectical. They absolve one of personal responsibility. The responsibility of maintaining a pure walk before God.
Again I ask where is legalism here? What I see is a sister calling us to be holy before a holy God. Unless I misread my Bible, even in the New Testament, our calling is to be holy. So I ask again where us the legalism here?
I feel tbis message is more right on then what one is going to get out of Joseph Prince or Joel Olstein. Personally I think every member of the forum should listen to this. But then maybe I am legalistic.
Bearmaster
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ThyKingCome
Not only is this an awesome message on God's holiness, but this dear sister could teach our modern day pastors a few things about preaching.
She obviously is not preaching herself, or stories or even her own agenda. She is speaking in weakness and trembling and also in the demonstration of the spirit and of power.
She is not trying to tell the Church that if they live a holy life that they will be in right standing before God, but is rather exhorting an ALREADY RECONCILED bride of Christ to WALK in the holiness that they have already been made partakers of. That is the whole definition of exhortation--to call us to walk in what we already are. It's the whole concept of the indicative teachings in scripture versus the imperatives. The indicatives teach us that we are already holy in Christ because of His working, but the imperatives teach us to now walk in holiness BECAUSE we are holy in Him.
I wish that I was a part of a church that had this kind of preaching.
Lord forgive us for sitting in the seat of the scornful.
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sermonindex
TKC amen. I was moved and convicted by this sisters message. I do agree. She indeed was speaking from a heart of trembling moved in awe by a holy God. Also her heart broke in praise of the thrice holy God by singing that great hym Holy Holy Holy. Followed by the worship song I Stand in Awe of You. I found mysekf going to my knees worshipping the thrice Holy God.
In Revelation the angels cry Holy Holy Holy. Holiness is the one attribute of God articulated three times. Holiness is the one attribute that is foundational to all his other attributes.
I exhort all to listen to this sister's message. There us no condemnation. But for sure there will be a conviction of the Spirit for the lack if holiness in our own lives. I was so moved to conviction of sin in ny own life.
If anyone does listen to this message explain where the legalism is? You will not find it.
Bearmaster
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TMK
There is no legalism here, unless one calls following Biblical mandates legalism.
"Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy." I Pet 1:13-16.
The word "be" is an action word-- we have to DO something. We are not "automatically" holy when we are saved, or else there would not be statements like the above in scripture. In a sense we are holy if we are saved; i.e. we have the HS, etc but the Bible teaches that we must live out this holiness so that we actually look holy. How? By dying, so that it is no longer we who live but Christ living in us.
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Elibeth
Natalie,
What a most precious and most needful message.what else is there ?
It is Truth....the Lord has called us to this.
* For as many,as are led by the Spirit of God,THEY ARE the son's / children of God,....but is is a death.
God does not want nor will He lead us into sin.and if we do not allow His Words,that He draws (His Grace),us with to fall to the ground, we can be Holy.
And too,* Blessed is the pure in heart,for they shall SEE God....
To SEE God ?....But He is envisable,...He is the Spirit. / Word,..the Holy One,..He who speaketh,..the Voice
So if we have a pure heart,we can SEE God,..then He gives us an understanding of His Word,..through His Spirit,(manifest,reveal,what He is truly saying.
Please bless us all with a pure heart,O'Lord,that we may SEE you as you
Really are and as a reflection as to how we are to be,....that is Truly/ Truth,..HOLY !...
.Take up the Cross / death,and follow me....a follower of Jesus Chirst.
Jesus did not just die when they hung Him on the cross,..but He lived a
whole life of death to self,and Life to God,His Father.
Natalie,this Lady gave so many good scripture,...
Thank you for sharing with us,with this encouragement.
elizabeth
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romanchog
Elizabeth:
I listened to this message twice already. Oh the importance of holiness! If we could only understand that without holiness we will not see God, then we would truly labor to cleanse ourselves of the filth of this world. The world is so much in us that we do not even realize that what we have in us is indeed the world.
I was chided by some (very few) for questioning whether board games are worldly, by which I meant to say, are board games of the world and therefore am I defiling myself and allowing myself to be defiled for participating in them? It may seem silly to some, but is this not the type of self-examination that we are supposed to be daily doing in our lives?
Many years ago, when I was clueless about holiness I was reading the sermon on the mount and when I read that the pure in heart shall see God, I got so excited. I just wanted to know how I could get a pure heart! I wanted to see God. I did a word search on the word pure in the Bible (very academic) and could not find anything that would give me the answer. The answer was right in front of my nose but I could not see it. Holiness! Those who are pure in heart are HOLY. They will see God. How I yearn for this holiness, and how far from it am I!
This holiness should extend to the smallest areas of our lives. We should look very deep at every thing we do, even the smallest things. We are told by the apostle Paul that in ALL things, whether we eat or drink, we should give glory to God. If we are supposed to glorify God in such (apparently) mundane things, should we look to all the other mundane things as well and make sure that we are not allowing the world to enter into us through them?
This may sound like legalism to some, but Paul calls us to examine ourselves lest we be found disqualified. I would rather exaggerate here on the side of holiness than end up at the end of my life disqualified!
I am speaking for myself. I do not wish anyone to think that I am condemning anybody.
In Christ,
Natalie
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Earendel
judge not lest you be judged...
Is there any professing Christian willing to receive only one lash of a whip for every sin committed since becoming a Christian? (think about it before you answer) if the answer is no then read on...
Is everyone professing holiness have already attained to perfect holiness?
If not, be careful how you judge another, remember Gal 6:1 and NEVER wish some ones sins upon them because they have struggles in life. Remember that it is written to bear one another's burdens and to pray for each other.
Some people just don't get it that only God the Father is good, and that unless God enables a person (God inside) to be be holy, it is impossible to be so.
(so how do we get God inside?)
You cannot strive in the flesh to be holy...you can wish for it, acknowledge it, and profess it all you want to dear Christian, but that is only window dressing to real holiness. It is the grace and mercy of God alone that enables us to live our lives for Him (and this does not come from ourselves)...in love from Him and for Him...and because of this love comes submission.
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Brethren
There is so much fuzzy thinking about this issue.
I am not saying that the call to holiness is wrong. There are many in the church who are content with their lukewarm state and sins, while claiming that the blood of Christ covers them, like a fall of snow over a compost heap. They truly need to hear that Christ calls us to lead holy lives.
There are also many in the church who look around them and see the failings of others and desire that someone would speak out and bring these black sheep to order, bringing shame as they are to the church. These ones are the self righteous who do not see their own sins and who are high and mighty in their own minds. Thank God they say that I am not like other men.
However, there are also many in the church who desire to be pleasing to their Lord and Master, who strive and strive but yet fail to find any peace. They hear this message, and it adds another burden onto their backs. They need to hear that Christ has done it all.
The message is flawed because it leads us to believe that one can be more pleasing to God by ones efforts. That, if one desires to be holy, but fails often, then God is satisfied with that, that it is enough. Adding emotion into it does not make it valid.
The speaker does not show us how to be holy.
Holiness does not come through beating the flesh. It does not come through weeping and guilt (though there must be conviction). It comes by understanding amazing grace.
It is through amazing grace that the wretch is saved. That is, the believer who has already come to Christ and who is already trying to live a holy life but is failing and struggling. They have not yet been saved from the presence of sin which is the purpose of the crucifixion. And all it takes is faith that Christ will keep us from all sin.
This is the message that is good news as it relieves them of their desperation. However, you get speakers like the one in the OP who claim that a man should feel content with status quo so long as he desires to get there but thinks that it wont happen in this life, which is the death knell to real holiness.
Brethren, the desire to be holy has been put there by God because He enables us to be so, otherwise we would be chasing something that is unobtainable in this life. A cruel joke if it were not possible. A man must be motivated by something that is possible for him to obtain otherwise he will become disenchanted.
The OP message seems to be right but there is a subtle message inside of it that is very wrong.
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jochbaptist
I must say that I percieve so much of Jesus in our Sister Nancy, resulting in what is so rare these days - the inner beauty of a gentle & quiet spirit.
Dear Krautfrau, what do you think of the following?:
The Holiness Movement was in many ways a reaction to the dead orthodoxy and lifeless spirituality that infiltrated so much of Christianity during the nineteenth-century. However, its remedy, a second blessing resulting in the eradication of sinful tendencies and a higher life not available to the unbaptized, went beyond the teaching of Scripture. As is often the case in reactionary movements, the cure may be as bad as the disease.
&:
All of these 20th century movements can trace their ancestors to the Holiness Movement of the 1800s and to John Wesley before that. They all have in common the desire for some form of instantaneous perfection, or power, that comes through a subsequent work of the Spirit in the lives of believers. Each movement also has in common a faulty view of sanctification—that personal holiness, maturity and power is the result of a momentary experience rather than a lifetime process.
Joch
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sermonindex
Dear Brother Joch
We must beware of being deceived by the appearance of the messenger. Only the truth counts. Many people are taken in by a charming seemingly humble pastor but later find that they suffer very much by being in his church. Some are badly damaged. Even Satan appears as an angel of light. No, we must seek the truth and know that plenty of lovely gentle souls are decieved.
The Holiness Movement traced back to Wesley, may have indeed been a reaction to dead orthodoxy but the doctrine did not start there.
George Fox and the early Quakers were teaching and living this message in the 1600`s (read the Journal for a report of Fox`s experience of entire sanctification when he `came up through the flaming sword`) and many others before Wesley taught it from the begining of the NT church. We have the Lindisfarne Gospels from the 8th century
http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/sacredtexts/lindisfarne.html
This book records the lives of those who were pronounced saints due to their holy lives in northern England.
There is indeed a process involved in sanctification but there must come a point where the flesh has been put to death. The Bible nowhere says that one is sanctified after death.
Those who deny this doctrine do so because it has not happened to them. They cannot imagine being without their sins. Scripture says that he who sins is of the devil.
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TMK
krautfrau wrote:
"Those who deny this doctrine do so because it has not happened to them. They cannot imagine being without their sins."
That statement depends a lot on what the definition of "sin" is.
Scripture may say that he who sins is of the devil, but it also says that whoever says he is without sin is deceiving himself.
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murrcolr
The Holiness movement didn't start in the 1800s, the Holiness movement was born on Pentecost 2000 years ago.
Acts 15:9 you can read there about the instananous cleansing of the heart by faith.
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sermonindex
A reading of the New Testament does not teach an intant second blessing where one is infused with holiness and they are suddenly walking on water. What the New Testament does teach is that one has to be continually on an ongoing basis filled with Holy Spirit. And then by the power of the Spirit put to death the misdeeeds of the body.
Paul's letters exhort Spirit filled believers to live out a godly life that is expressed in following directives he lays out. This is what Nancy Leigh DeMise is exhorting the church to do. The bride of Christ is called to be holy. She is only doing what Paul would have us do. Live godly in Christ Jesus.
Yet when the exhortation to practical holiness goes out. The cry is legalism and law and we are under grace. Then what does Titus 2:11-14 tells us. It is grace that teaches us to say "NO" to ungodliness and worldly passion and to live self controlled and godly lives in this present generation.
I suggest we put Wesley and Fox aside and look to the New Testament alone for teeachibg on practical holiness. I see no teaching there on the second blessing or an infusion of holiness that makes one instant like Christ. What I do see is a gradual transforming of the Holy Spirit that is working us and we are working out to be more like Christ. And tes. We will not be completely sanctified until death.
This is what our sister is exhorting us to do. This is what the New Testament writers are exhorting us to do. To walk in a prractical holiness by the power of the Spirit as unto Christ.
Bearmaster.
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Brother Bearmaster
Its also known as the baptism of the Spirit and I see a lot about it right through the Bible. It is the point at which we become like Christ and walk as He walked. Many think they have been baptised at the point they came to Christ but that is false as can be seen by their walk - not being Christlike.
Agreed Brother Colin but it was only known as the `Holiness Movement` at the date we are discussing.
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Brother TMK
So which one is being misinterpreted? Which one encourages holiness?
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sermonindex
Sister even those baptized in the Holy Spirit lack a holy walk or have issues with sin. Peter was baptized in the Holy Spirit. But Paul had to rebuke him for his hypocrissy as seen in Gal.2.
Being baptized in the Holy Spirit does not mean one will obey Christ perfectly as Jesus obeyed his Father. Only one has been without sin while walking on this earth. That person was Jesus. I doubt any person, including myself, can say we have obeyed Christ perfectly. If soeone has such a testimony then they are in deception.
For sure the Spirit does help us live a holy life. But it is a given we will fall into sin. This is why God has given us the promises in 1 John 1:7-10 of forgiveness and cleansing.
The walk of faith on a daily basis is a dying to self and continual filling by the Spirit. Or a daily putting off if the old nature and putting on the new nature of Christ. There is also an exhortation to practical holiness.
I am sure that Nancy DeNies would agree that one's practical walk of holiness must be done in the power of the Spirit. But our obedience to Christ will never be perfect this side of glory. It is only when we get to heaven and see him will we be completely perfect in Jesus.
Bearmaster
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murrcolr
Quote: We will not be completely sanctified until death.
Justification, Sanctification and Glorification…
Glorification is the future and final work of God upon Christians, where he transforms our mortal physical bodies to the eternal physical bodies in which we will dwell forever.
1 Cor. 15:42-44, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."
Jesus is the first resurrected from the dead in a glorified body. He is called the first fruits of creation. 1 Cor. 15:20 says, "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep." Since he is the first fruits, we will follow. His resurrection is the promise and guarantee of our future resurrection.
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Sanctification is the same Greek word as holiness, “hagios,” meaning a separation.
Paul prayed in 1 Thessalonians 5:23, “The God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Hence the name Entire Sanctification meaning the possibility to live a blameless life on earth.
Sanctification is a seperation from sin while you live on earth..
I hope that clears up somethings for you...
Edit: Spelling
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sermonindex
1 John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceve ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he us faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all untrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Respectfully to those who hold to a blameless or sinless perfection. How do you handle these verses? My understanding is John is writing to Christians.
Bearmaster.
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sermonindex
It is true that Peter sinned. No-on is saying that it is impossible to fall and give in to temptation. So that`s what happened to Peter but Paul dealt with him about it. This is the only mention of a sin in Peter post Pentecost. He was restored.
It is actually quite usual to have a fall but thankfully most are restored again to their entire sanctification.
You say brother, that we cannot be perfect in this life yet we are instructed to be that very thing.
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murrcolr
Quote: 1 John 1:8-10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceve ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he us faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all untrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Quote: Respectfully to those who hold to a blameless or sinless perfection. How do you handle these verses? My understanding is John is writing to Christians.
You did not quote all of the text.
You should have begun at the seventh verse, which reads like this: "If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, His Son, cleanseth us from ALL SIN.
Now, I would like to ask, If you were forgiven all of your sins and cleansed from all unrighteousness, would you not be WITHOUT SIN.
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sermonindex
Indeed John is writing to believers. He is combating an error that had come into the church.
He is saying that if we listen to the error which was that it is our spirit which is holy and therefore what we do in the body does not count as sin, and do not come to Him to be purified from all unrighteousness, mark he says all, then we make Him out to be a liar, as He says so many other times in the rest of the letter, and in the rest of scripture, that He can cleanse us from all sin.
You are quoting a verse which contradicts the rest of the letter which is clear, and says that he who sins is of the devil. One verse against many. One verse that is misinterpreted and ignores the rule of scripture that verse must interpret verse.
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sermonindex
Are you going to tell me and this forum that you both are without sin. Are you going to tell me and this forum that you both have never sinnned. Honestly I don't think so.
Only one person has ever been without sin and that is Jesus himself. No New Testament believer, including the apostles themselves, has never been without sin..
The New Testament does not support sinless perfection. And the experience of Christ filled believers does not confirm it. Indeed the person who is getting closer to Jesus becomes even more aware of their sinfullness. But then that person is ever driven closer to the cross to be cleansed by Christ.
The New Testament letters are filled with exhortations for believers to live out holy ki es before Jesus. The New Testament letters are filled with imperatives for believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit to live a holy life as unto Christ.
We are continually being transformed into Christ likeness on an ongoing daily basis. The Spirit works within us and we are working it out.
Bearmaster
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TMK
Those who espouse "sinless perfection" generally have a different definition of sin than i do, and the scripture does.
Usually they will say that their "bad acts" are not sin because they have been "cleansed."
That is a bunch of hogwash.
It is certainly true that if we are baprized in the HS we do not *have* to sin. Nonetheless, every Christian on the face of the earth still sins-- sorry, no exceptions.
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sermonindex
Brother Bearmaster
I came to the Lord when I was 23 after being witnessed to by a believer, and after the Lord showed me that He had died for me.
All that I wanted after that was to please Him in everything but as time went by I found that there was something in me that did not match how I acted when I was with other believers. There was still something that did not bow down, that still had secret doubts and questions.
It went on causing me great distress at times until I came across the teaching of Oswald Chambers who showed me that Christ came to deliver me from this inner conflict and so I put my trust in His power to hold me and keep me from sin and immediately my desire was granted and His power became operative in my life and my heart was at last pure and holy.
I had a period where I lost this assurance but I still knew that His power is stronger than my sin and that faith delivers us and the only obstacle is unbelief.
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Oracio
On the video page someone posted a comment which said she is like a female version of Paul Washer. I agree. Praise God for this humble, yet bold sister!
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ginnyrose
Natalie, Thanks for posting this link. While I did not listen to the message in its entirety, I can relate to the speaker's heart felt message.
The holiness of God is a subject so vast, so deep it makes one feel his insignificance yet it was for people such as I that He came to redeem! How precious is that??!! How much do we appreciate that? Will we kick him in his face by living in rebellion or will we follow him? What this looks like where the rubber meets the road reveals how serious we are with God.
This topic is one that should be shared by more women in more women's conferences....
God bless.
ginnyrose
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murrcolr
Quote: Those who espouse "sinless perfection" generally have a different definition of sin than i do, and the scripture does.
First of all let me I espouse entire sanctification...
Quote: Usually they will say that their "bad acts" are not sin because they have been "cleansrd"
Holiness or entire sanctification (in the sense in which we shall use the terms) is the absence of all sin.
It is also the presence of all the graces of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, Gal 5:22-23 unmixed with any carnal or contrary affection.
The holy soul is free from all sin Rom 6:22 and “filled with all the fullness of God.” Eph 3:19.
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TMK
Quote: "The holy soul is free from all sin Rom 6:22 and “filled with all the fullness of God.” Eph 3:19."
Yes, but there is still the flesh. The gnostics were saying their indulgence of the lusts of the flesh didn't matter because their "spirit" was pure and the flesh didn't matter.
But the bible says that keeping our flesh pure DOES matter.
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sermonindex
I have listened to this message again and still gripped by the need for more holiness in ny life. Again I would commend this message and urge all to listen to it.
I am reminded of 2 Tim. 1:9 that says God has saved us and called us to a holy life. God grant that my life be more full of his holiness.
Praise God for this beautiful message of holiness from a beautiful vessel of holiness from God.
Bearmaster.
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murrcolr
Quote: The New Testament does not support sinless perfection.
Okay just so it’s clear I support Entire Sanctification 1 Thess 5:23
In my studying I do see some error that attached itself to the holiness movement, it seems that error got in from some that practiced mysticism and that is why I come out so strongly against contemplative prayer and don’t use the term sinless perfection.
Does the scripture support Entire Sanctification, let me say when God first introduced me to the “the second blessing”, I could not see it in scripture, but know I see it all through scripture...
Here is a definition of Entire Sanctification…
Sanctification, that work of God’s grace by which we are renewed after the image of God, set apart for his service, and enabled to die unto sin and live unto righteousness. Sanctification is either of nature, whereby we are renewed after the image of God, in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:19) or of practice, whereby we die unto sin, have its power destroyed in us, cease from the love and practice of it, hate it as abominable, and live unto righteousness, loving and studying good works.
Quote: And the experience of Christ filled believers does not confirm it.
Here are what some well-known men of God have to say…
John Fletcher says: “It is the pure love of God and man shed abroad in a faithful believer’s heart by the Holy Ghost given unto him, to cleanse him, and to keep him clean, from all the filthiness of the flesh and spirit, and to enable him to ‘fulfill the law of Christ,’ according to the talents he is intrusted with, and the circumstances in which he is
Adam Clarke says: “What, then, is this complete sanctification? It is the cleansing of the blood, that has not been cleansed; it is washing the soul of a true believer from the remains of sin.”
Watson’s Theological Institutes: “By which can only be meant our complete deliverance from all spiritual pollution, all inward depravation of the heart, as well as that which, expressing itself outwardly by the indulgence of the senses, is called ‘filthiness of the flesh.’ “
Bishop Foster says of the person entirely sanctified, that he is in “a state in which he will be entirely free from sin, properly so called, both inward and outward. The process of this work is in this order: beginning with pardon by which one aspect of sin, that is actual guilt, is wholly removed, and proceeding in regeneration, by which another kind of sin, that is depravity, is in part removed, terminating with entire sanctification, by which the remainder of the second kind, or depravity, is entirely removed.”
Jesse T. Peck in Central Idea: “In the merely justified state we are not entirely pure ... But in the work of entire sanctification, these impurities are all washed away, so that we are wholly saved from sin, from its inward pollution.”
Bishop Simpson says: “Christian Perfection is a term used by Methodists to denote a state of grace implying purity of heart, or a heart cleansed from all sin ... Sanctification is that act of the Holy Ghost whereby the justified man is made holy.”
Rev. Wm. McDonald says: “It is the removal from our moral natures, through faith in Christ. All sinful desires and tempers, all pride, anger, envy, unbelief, and love of the world; and the possession in these purified natures of the unmixed graces of faith, humility, resignation (longsuffering), patience, meekness, self-denial, and love.”
Quote: Indeed the person who is getting closer to Jesus becomes even more aware of their sinfulness. But then that person is ever driven closer to the cross to be cleansed by Christ.
I agree with you 100% many who claim entire sanctification say that they came to a point of “crisis” an awareness of there own sinfulness and inability to deal with it, this crisis is the point where a surrender and submission to Christ comes in a new and deeper way and leads to cleansing and sanctification..
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mama27
I just finished listening to this message that was posted last week.....I don't see how anyone could not be challenged to reach higher in our Christian walk after hearing this. I don't want to comment to the debate going on as I feel in some ways it detracts from the purity and simplicity of the message. Let us all desire increasing holiness in our lives. Thank you so much for posting this!
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ginnyrose
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QUOTE:
"I just finished listening to this message that was posted last week.....I don't see how anyone could not be challenged to reach higher in our Christian walk after hearing this. I don't want to comment to the debate going on as I feel in some ways it detracts from the purity and simplicity of the message. Let us all desire increasing holiness in our lives. Thank you so much for posting this!"
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Agreed.
ginnyrose
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sermonindex
That is why I opened up the other thread to discuss the issues raised previously on this thread. Felt this thread should focus mire in Nancy DeMoss's message of holiness.
I have listened to this messsve twice. Need to listen to it again. Very challenged for more holiness in ny life.
Bearmaster.
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sermonindex
Once again I listened to this heart stirring message by a humble servant of God. This sister exhorts us to pursue more holiness in our lives because God is holy.
The message is convicting but at the same time encouraging. If anyone has not listened to this stirring message by Nancy Leigh DeMoss I would encourage you to do so. After listening to this message, if not during it, you will find yourself worshipping the thrive holy God. Also you will find yourself wanting to be holy to please him who is holy.
Bearmaster.
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sermonindex
As I listened to tbis message I was reminded of the story of the bride who did not get herself ready for the wedding. A very apt parable for the church in the west that is far from being pure and ready for the coming of her Lord.
Very sobering but sad. God may we be more holy as unto Jesus.
Bearmaster.
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sermonindex
Again another thought echoed in Nancy's message. She gave a quote by Andrew Murray when he said revival will come when sd stop using prayer asa ssubstitute for holiness.
Bearmaster.
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ZekeO
Does she give any handles on how this holiness is obtained?
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sermonindex
Best thing to do is listen to the message. She does give some practical suggestions. But ultimately it is the Spirit working out holiness in our lives.
Bearmaster.
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ZekeO
Holiness is a person, Jesus. Its not a question of growing in holiness but growing in the knowledge of him. The more I see that Jesus is all that I need, holiness then does not seem like a state attained and needed for blessing but a life lived which is Christ Jesus himself.
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PaulWest
Spoken very well Zeke.
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romanchog
Amen, Zeke.
"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” " 1 Cor 1:30-31
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docseth1
Christ did not save us from the possibility of sin. He saved us from the power of sin. Because He has not saved us from the possibility of sinning, it is possible that we can sin. Because it is possible for a believer to sin, we are warned to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and. spirit - perfecting holiness. In an age of immorality and sensuality, we must be vigilant to guard against the ever pressing in of worldliness. Adam and Eve were created holy and righteous too, until Satan beguiled Eve. I am in agreement with you that holiness is a work of God's grace in the heart of a believer. It is also true that a believer can defile themselves after having been made clean. Nancy's point was not that we should seek holiness apart from God's grace, but that we should remove those things from our life that would pull us back into bondage. We must be careful that we don't jump to conclusions when someone doesn't give us what we feel is the "whole" story. As a pastor, I know how exhausting in can be to have to keep explaining yourself to people who are looking for any hint of deception in your sermon. Sometimes you just need to preach and let folks ask questions later. I am sure that if you were to ask Nancy her position on holiness being by works or grace, her response would be - grace!
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docseth1
I would add that Nancy did a masterful job preaching and delivering her sermon!
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docseth1
Well put!
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docseth1
Oh yeah! My wife and I watched this video together last night and I told her that I thought she had been listening to Paul Washer. Or maybe he's been listening to her! Lol
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docseth1
Oh yeah! My wife and I watched this video together last night and I told her that I thought she had been listening to Paul Washer. Or maybe he's been listening to her! Lol
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docseth1
Well put!
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docseth1
I would add that Nancy did a masterful job preaching and delivering her sermon!
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docseth1
Christ did not save us from the possibility of sin. He saved us from the power of sin. Because He has not saved us from the possibility of sinning, it is possible that we can sin. Because it is possible for a believer to sin, we are warned to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and. spirit - perfecting holiness. In an age of immorality and sensuality, we must be vigilant to guard against the ever pressing in of worldliness. Adam and Eve were created holy and righteous too, until Satan beguiled Eve. I am in agreement with you that holiness is a work of God's grace in the heart of a believer. It is also true that a believer can defile themselves after having been made clean. Nancy's point was not that we should seek holiness apart from God's grace, but that we should remove those things from our life that would pull us back into bondage. We must be careful that we don't jump to conclusions when someone doesn't give us what we feel is the "whole" story. As a pastor, I know how exhausting in can be to have to keep explaining yourself to people who are looking for any hint of deception in your sermon. Sometimes you just need to preach and let folks ask questions later. I am sure that if you were to ask Nancy her position on holiness being by works or grace, her response would be - grace!
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wombat1
A discussion focusing on holiness the process of sanctification. There is much opposion to holiness today but not by those moving forward in him.
We were asked the other day do we want to observe the greatest move of God in history or do we want to be a part of it.
Thanks for this discussion I am encouraged. Kind regards Oskar.
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ZekeO
Dosceth1, could 'possibly' just explain a couple of things for me?
How can you possibly sin if the power of sin has been taken away? How do you even know what sin is apart from the law?
If you sin, you've fallen from grace! You have stepped back into the law.
The law has got no hold on dead men. Neither does it have any power to cause you to sin, for without the law there is no knowledge of sin.
There is an amazing liberty that comes to the heart of man when he realises that in Christ Jesus God was not counting his sin against them.
That really the love of God which we experience through living in his forgiveness compels me to fulfil the requirements of the law which is Jesus anyway.
The war is not one of sin in the believer but of belief that I am now the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus apart from the law in spite of my faults, that his forgiveness is compelling, urgent, incessant, thats love friends.
Christ is risen, if he wasn't, we would still be living in sin and our faith is futile.
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sermonindex
Zeke the call to holiness is a battle of the believer putting to death the the misdeeds of the body by the power of the Spirit. The call to holiness is the believer making Spirit led choices daily by crucifying his own desires and living out the Spirit led desires for holiness in his walk with Jesus.
You yourself said that holiness is a person. That person is Jesus. Utimately our desire for holiness should stem out of a desire for Jesus himself.
My thoughts.
Bearmaster.
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docseth1
"How can you possibly sin if the power of sin has been taken away?"
I do not mean to imply that a Cbristian will desire to live in sin. True Christians love God and have been given a new heart, mind and desires.
The Scipture do point however to the possibility of christians sinning. Consider I John 2:1 NKJV, which was written to faithful christians: " My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." The promise of the NT was freedom from the bondage of sin:sin shall not have dominion over you. That does not mean that we can never be bound by it again. Brother, all you have to do is follow the history of the early church to discover this truth. The corinthian church - rebuked in three to four of pauls letter for their sin and carnality. Galatian church - rebuked for going back under bondage and falling from grace. Out of 7 churches in Revelations, 5 were rebuked sternly for their sins. They were warned to repent- or else. I would also say to you that if you would put you own life under the microscope of the holiness of God, you would discover that there are things that you have done since coming to Christ that has not fully pleased Him. Can you say that you have completly and fully pleased God with every thought and action since you've accepted Him? If not, you prove my point. If you can say yes to that question, I don't think anyone on this site will believe you! Lol. Can we live free from sin - I believe so. But will we? That's the question.
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ZekeO
Hi Bear and Doceleth1,
God gives grace to humble people and opposes the proud. If your pride gives you the impression that because of Gods grace you can carry on anyway you want, live like a heathen.
The opposite of holiness by the way is not sin its this:
How much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the spirit of Grace?
Its treating the holy blood of Jesus as a common thing, that it was the very blood of God himself spilt for me.
If we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.
May I also just make reference to Paul rebuking the believers for sin, I haven't checked all the references but from what I have seen in Cor 6 and Gal 5, he always reminds them that its because of what Christ has done that they shouldn't behave a certain way. its like they have forgotten that they have been forgiven.
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