A discussion on can a believer live without sin

Since the Nancy DeMoss thread should be more focussed on that message I wanted to open up another thread on the discussion of sinless perfection. It seems some in this forum believe one can be without sin. It seems they believe they can have a Christian walk without thinking a sinful thought or engaging in a sinful act.

I personally do not believe in sinless perfection. I do not believe the scriptures support the doctrine of sinless perfection. The Bible tells us only one has ever been without sin. That person is Jesus Christ. The scriptures tells us that God made him who knew no sin to be sin in our place. So that we might become the righteousness of God.

Those who hold to sinless perfection are you so audacious to say you have such a testimony. That right now you are as pure as Jesus himself that you can hang on a cross for sinners.

Those who hold to sinless perfection. Are you so audacious to say that you are not impacted by the sin of this world? That you have never had a sinful thought. Are you so audacious to tell us that you do not need to repent of any sin during the course of your daily walk with Christ?

If any have such a testimony then let us hear it. For surely your experience goes against the norm of many Christ centered people who struggle with sin on a daily basis. I imagine that includes Nancy DeMoss and Paul Washer. I have never heard in their messages they were free from all sin. Even Nancy DeMoss shared a moment of weakness in her message. .

But for those who walk 24/7 free from sin and need not repent. Please tell us how. I will listen to you. But I will challenge you from the scriptures.

Bearmaster.

Dear Bearmaster:

I know there are plenty of prior forum discussions on the doctrine, so I will not add to what has already been said other then trying to clear up whether you meant to say "Christian Perfection" and not "sinless perfection"? John Wesley is the most known for using the term Christian Perfection and he wrote to a sister who inquired about the meaning of the term below:

To Mrs. Maitland: — “As to the word perfection, it is Scriptural; therefore, neither you nor I can in conscience object to it, unless we would send the Holy Ghost to school, and teach Him to speak who made the tongue.

“By Christian perfection, I mean (as I have said again and again) the so loving God and our neighbor as to 'rejoice evermore, pray without ceasing, and in everything give thanks. 'He that experiences this is Scripturally perfect. And if you do not, yet you may experience it; you surely will, if you follow hard after it, for the Scripture cannot be broken.

“What then does their arguing reprove, who object against Christian perfection? Absolute or infallible perfection I never contended for. Sinless perfection I do not contend for, seeing it is not Scriptural. A perfection, such as enables a person to fulfill the whole law, and so needs not the merits of Christ, —I acknowledge no such perfection; I do, now, and always did, protest against it.

“'But is there no sin in those who are perfect in love?' I believe not; but be that as it may,they feel none, —no temper contrary to pure love, —while they rejoice, pray, and give thanks continually. And whether sin is suspended, or extinguished, I will not dispute; it is enough that they feel nothing but love. This, you allow, we should daily press after. And this is all I contend for.”— Works, vol. vi. p. 752.

BTW, the following website is a great resource on the doctrine of Christian Perfection: http://www.enterhisrest.org/

Hi MrBillPro

At that time, there well may have not been a man walking on the earth that did not sin. There have been other times I am sure. Narrow is the path.

Thankyou for starting this thread Bear.

There is no man at any time who has never sinned. But there have been plenty who later came to be delivered from it and testified tio it and more than that, others who knew them testified to it which removed possibility of self deception. It has been recorded of certain men that they were indeed holy.

I could not see it in scripture at one time. But now I see it throughout the whole of the scriptures, it is the subject of the whole of the books. God wants to restore man to what he should have been. Those who are hard of heart will not see it though. I am not judging you - I don`t know you -I am merely stating a fact.

I agree Paul West. Amen and Amen! I need this discussion for the purpose of edification and to know Jesus and the Father more.

I thought of the following verses concerning perfection or Christian Perfection:

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness."

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;"

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

"for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation."

"For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."

"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

"and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

"the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked."

"Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ."

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

Brother PaulWest is right, it is a very important subject and one we must not get wrong. As this is the most important issue for us, it is no surprise that there is confusion over meanings as our enemy surely wants there to be such confusion.

soldout2him

It is my understanding that Wesley did not wish to contend over the term sinless perfection because there is so much misunderstanding about it, not that it is not scriptural. That statement is not in his sermon Christian Perfection and I wonder if you can give me a link to read Works vol.6.

He did teach that man can be without sin.

To make it clear - I do not believe that it is possible for a man to never have sinned in his whole life. I do not believe that once a man is entirely sanctified that he cannot sin again - he certainly can fall.

I believe that a man can have a pure heart and as sin comes out of the heart, and this is where I disagree with Paul West, not the other way around from head to heart, if the heart is pure there cannot be an evil thought coming into the head.

I do not believe that a man can be like God in that he never makes a mistake but a mistake is not a sin. It is an error of judgment and not a moral issue. Wesley says it as thinking more of a man than should be thought. Misjudging intention is a common mistake.

I agree with Wesley that a man can never not need the blood of Christ moment by moment to keep us from sin as it is not within our power.

I am not aware of any sin at this moment of time and I have walked with absolute assurance but this is not about me. It is about whether the doctrine is true or not. I don`t want the attention to be on me but I am willing to answer questions so long as they are respectful.

I believe that Colin differs from me in that he thinks that entire sanctification means that there is no conscious sin. Maybe if he is still here he can confirm this to avoid confusion.

I don`t go along with this and think that this doctrine brings discredit because the claimant is displaying sins that others can see yet say that one must walk without sin.

To me, it is a contradiction of terms. Entire sanctification means to me simply that - no sin.

I wonder whether sinless perfection was understood in Wesley`s time as it is sometimes understood today to mean a person who has never sinned in their lives or never sinned as a believer. Is my understanding of the doctrine the same as others here regardless of whether we agree or not? I think that would be useful to know.

QUOTE A
perfection, such as enables a person to fulfil the whole law, and so
needs not the merits of Christ,-^-I acknowledge no such perfection; I
do now, and always did, protest against it. END OF QUOTE

OK I have found it. Wesley is saying that sinless perfection, meaning that one must not make a mistake and therefore not need the merit of Christ, is not scriptural. Agreed, we will never reach a point of not making a mistake which Wesley says needs the blood too even though it is not sin. I believe that we need the blood in order to stay perfect.

It is clear that Wesley still maintains sinlessness

QUOTE But is there no sin in those who are perfect in love V I believe not;
but be that as it may, they feel none END QUOTE

Dear krautfrau:

If you are really interested in finding the exact quote from Mr. Wesley to Mrs. Maitland then you could easily find it on any of the websites that publish his works. Dear bother, I did the research for you and the link is provided below:

http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1763/

If you have read through Wesley's works, journals, etc., then you know it is very common to find a letter of this type, hence the reasoning for quoting from him concerning the misunderstandings, misrepresentations and fallacies concerning the biblical understanding of the doctrine of Christian Perfection. Best to know what a man believes by reading his own words or hearing him directly give account of the faith within him then to receive it second hand from another source.

Again, I will post the link of a site which covers the doctrine of Christian perfection very thoroughly: http://www.enterhisrest.org/

I also believe that when one tries to defend any doctrine then it must agree with the Holy Scriptures. As "all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work (2 Tim. 3:16)" I do hope that this discussion will rely heavily on the quoting of scriptures as they are the most efficient means to spiritually edify the Body and not tear her down.

May the Holy Spirit be our teacher and guide during this post, as He alone is the one who is able to shed the love of God abroad in our hearts. May we consider others more important and better than ourselves, while looking unto ourselves lest we also fall. With meekness, gentleness, and long suffering let us restore one another to an abiding relationship with the Lord Jesus and the Father. Concerning the Holy Spirit the Lord has spoken: "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you." Amen.

Brother krautfrau, delay my last as it appears you did your due diligence and found the quote yourself. Great job! :)

I am going to meet with my wife for lunch, but I am going to be praying on this subject while eagerly anticipating the opportunity to join again soon, Lord willing. I know this doctrine is very dear to the Lord's heart and He desires that His people experience salvation to the uttermost. KM

I have retitled the thread to a discussion of the doctrine of sinless perfection. It seems this is a topic that should prayerfully engender some Spirit ked discussion.

May God be pleased to give us some revelation and practical application in our walk with Christ.

Bearmaster

Brother Bill's signature line seems to speak right to the heart of this issue.

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. Ecc. 7:10.

Whether one calls it sinless perfection, Christian perfection, entire sanctification, etc. Guess what. One is still going to sin.

Bearmaster.

It appears most of the brethren on this post have already exhausted this topic on other threads like the below link, e.g., "Go and sin no more"

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=30222&forum=36&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=0

I have been reading through it and I will quote from the end of one of krautfrau's posts:

"Most do not enter this rest and even less these dark days. Sinless Perfection is a dirty word due to misrepresentation. Man can fall from the rest, but when he is in it he is no longer the child of the devil and under the bondage of `unconscious sin`. Even the `unsaved` can stop his conscious sins as reformed alcoholics prove. It takes the power of God to free us from unconscious sins and hidden attitudes and this is done with the provision of the pure heart which enables Christ to manifest His life and live it through us.

Oh that examples of this life could be seen today. I know it exists because I have lived it but sadly I have found it impossible to remain in it and dont have the assurance of it at present. Please pray for me." END QUOTE

I agree wholeheartedly with you my dear brother in that there are few who seem to think that this type of heart purification is possible this side of heaven. Yet, how do we measure our Christian experience? Do we measure it by the Word of God or by our short comings?

We know that Christ walked blamelessly before the Father all of the days of His earthly journey, as the scriptures testifies of Him: "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Peter 2: 22-24).

Yet, dear saints what does the verse before this testimony declare? "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:" And yes even John declares: "whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked." Further, Peter also declared to the saints: "Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."

So dear saints, I too am struggling in this area of Christian Perfection. I have not attained it, but it is not because the doctrine is false, or because God's lack to give me a pure heart, or because of the devil or anyone else. No, No, No! God forbid that I would blame my sin on anyone else, but my own selfish endeavors. I have sinned against God and God alone have I done evil in His sight. Yet there is the repentance of the believers that Peter writes about as follows: "the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

I also would love to have others to encourage me as they did during the Holiness Movement and the birth of the first church. Read the detailed accounts of Rees Howells and how the saints urged him to go ALL the way with God along with the intimate promptings of the Holy Spirit.

One of the reasons I joined the Sermonindex forum is because of the doctrine of Christian perfection. Also, I saw an honest desire in the discussions of many of the threads to see the Lord have His way in everything we do, say or think. For the Lord to fill the house (i.e., His temple, the Body of Christ) and for the gates of hell to not prevail against her. To indeed be apart of the spotless, blameless and glorious bride. To be the Christ on the earth and in the local community, to love one another, to lay down our lives for one another and to NOT be popular among men, but that the demons would know us by name because we are walking according to the following High Priestly prayer:

13“But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14“I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15“I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18“As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19“For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

"22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

25“O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them”" (John 17). Amen, KM

Dear Colin

I know Patricia, have read her book and have had phone calls with her. I hope you dont mind me asking but why do you think you have not entered into His blessing when you have read so much about it and believe in it? And forgive the next question but do you think you are qualified to be an authority when you have not entered His rest? I say this because it is not possible to tell those who are repeating the doctrine from those who have or are there and confusion results.

soldout2him

I will get back to your post.

Thanks Philip

Gradual sanctification means that we are doing it rather than Him imparting His holiness. We cannot have bits of Christ - we have all of Him or none of Him, no matter how much doctrine we know.

Murrcolr wrote:

"How did you become aware of the blessing?"

Answer: In all honesty I have ONLY become aware of the doctrine and it was first from Denny Kenaston's teachings at one of the Leadership Conferences on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, after spending some time with some of the saints within the movement I found out that they were not a Holiness movement (i.e., holding to the Wesleyan doctrine of Christian Perfection or Entire Sanctification). When I first heard of Wesley, in 2003, I read everything I could get my hands on from him, then I read some of the other Holiness authors found on enterhisrest website. However, I do like and appreciate the Puritan authors too as well as some of their teachings on holiness and the Attributes of God. One thing I appreciated that Zac Poonen said (note: I realize that he would not strictly hold to a Wesleyan type of Christian Perfection teaching) regarding the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is that "we should not base our seeking after it on others testimonies, but we should base our seeking on the Word of God by faith alone." So, after hearing this and reading others testimonies I have tried to search the scriptures as a Berean to see if these things be so.

Once I came to the Word with an open, broken and contrite spirit-hungering and thirsting for righteousness: I began to see that God has called us to holiness and without it no one will see the Lord. Now, in all honesty I do not know what all of this verse means, but I do know that He desires for His people to be holy and perfect as He is holy and perfect.

The question that I face, and all of His people as well, is whether this perfection is obtainable while in this body or is it only obtainable when we receive our glorified body? Also, can we truly compare ourselves to Christ in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and we from the seed of Adam, per say. I know the scriptures tell us: "So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly" (1 cor. 15).

Also, Jesus promised us that He came to give us life and an abundant life (aionian-zoe, Divine life). Further, in Hebrews it says: "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." And in Romans: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." It appears from what I have found in the scriptures that God aims to separate us from living from the soul (psuche, natural life) to live as Christ did from the spiritual Divine life. We are to be led and controlled by the Holy Spirit and the will of God and not by the flesh or our own self will. Sparks has a good illustration of this, please find link below: http://www.austin-sparks.net/images/diagram8.html

Of course all this knowledge can puff up the mind, especially a babe in Christ and or carnal mind. Therefore, we should be encouraging one another DAILY to keep ourselves in the love of God and to cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Yet, in our day we are too busy for God, prayer, reading of the scriptures, Christian discipline, and laying our life (psuche, natural life) down for God and one another; because of all the other things have crept into our hearts which have taken our time, attention and choked out the Word. This has been the struggle of the church throughout all many generations and since the beginning, i.e., Jesus Parable of the sower. "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful." Yet, we know it is not the Father's perfect will, but the devil has had his way throughout all the ages. When will His church awake from her slumber?

God have mercy on me!!!

1 Peter 2:1-3
Terefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deciet, hypocrisy, envy, and slander. Like newborn babies crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you gave tasted that the Lord is good.

2 Peter 3:18
But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

In the scriptures there are parallels between physical and spiritual growth. Just as a child is born and is not instantly an adult. So one who is born into Christ is not instantly a mature saint. Maturity in Christ takes time and patience. Maturity in Christ comes through being in the word, prayer, godly fellowship, battling sin. Sometimes falling into sin and learning lessons through painful repentence.

The Holy Spirit helps us. But there is no short cut to spiritual maturity. It is slow and often painful growth. But to the seasoned saint who has endured the trials of such growth they stand like a solid hard oak tree. There roots are dug into the solid rock of Jesus himself.

Such growth as I described above is what others call gradual or progressive sanctification. It is the Spirit working within the believer to work out their salvation as unto Jesus. The believer is being transformed into Christ himself from one degree of glory to another. But it is often times through painful growth.

We see such growth in the persecuted church. Through their sufferings the glory of Christ will shine on and through them. There is no instant perfection for them. Nor is there infant perfection for us.

Bearmaster..

Bearmaster:

I agree there is and must be growth. However, it is said of Christ: "And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Also, "although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered." Therefore, Christ grew and learned, yet during these experiences His heart was clean and perfect before the Lord (i.e., without sin).

Additionally, what is the difference between the blood of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? 'For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." "For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Therefore, in the aforementioned passages of scripture what does it mean to be cleansed of "all unrighteousness"? And if you are cleansed then do you have a pure heart without sin? Jesus came to save His people from their sins, not in their sins.

Further, regarding growth here is a great illustration below from Samuel Logan Brengle:

"Said an old professor of over eighty years, in a certain holiness meeting: "I believe in holiness; but I don't think it is all got at once, as you people say. I believe we grow into it."

This is a very common mistake, second only to that which makes death the saviour from sin and the giver of holiness, and it is one which has kept tens of thousands out of the blessed experience. It does not recognize the exceeding sinfulness of sin (Rom. vii. 13), nor does it know the simple way of faith by which alone sin can be destroyed.

Entire sanctification is at once a process of subtraction and addition.

First, there are laid aside "all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings" (I Pet. ii. 1); in fact, every evil temper and selfish desire that is unlike Christ, and the soul is cleansed. In the very nature of the case this cannot be by growth, for this cleansing takes something from the soul, while growth always adds something to it. The Bible says, "Now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth" (Col. iii. 8). The Apostle talks as though a man were to put these off in much the same way as he would his coat. It is not by growth that a man puts off his coat, but by an active, voluntary and immediate effort of his whole body. This is subtraction.

But the Apostle adds: "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering" (Col. iii. 12). No more does a man put on his coat by growth, but by a similar effort of his whole body.

A man may grow in his coat, but not into his coat; he must first get it on. Just so, a man may "grow in grace," but not into grace. A man may swim in water, but not into water.

It is not by growth that you get the weeds out of your garden, but by pulling them up and vigorously using your hoe and rake"

(Holiness -- How To Get It,
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=6292)

for any dear soul, residing in this clay jar, to even bandy the thought or verbiage, of "sinless perfection" in Earshot of the LORD, Which is precisely Everywhere, to me, is the depth of folly....to the pain of risking playing games with God.

when i sigh, "please", that's not directed at you, my dear brother Blaine......"please"....one can buff up and polish both the exterior, and the "look", say ALL the right things, use all the right terms of "doctrine" in front of any other person.....but to insult God with this foolishness?

If there IS such a thing as "sinless perfection", please tell me why our Beloved Jesus had to endure the misery of the Cross?

somebody! answer THAT!

Brother PaulWest asked earlier that we define the terms we are using to help the discussion, and I have given mine on the previous page but no-one else has offered theirs so please will you do so. I see the same misrepresentation of the term over and over.I do not actually like to use it I prefer to call it His Rest as in Hebrews but am forced to use it due to the error that has come into the church since Wesley which talks about freedom from conscious sin alone. Thank you.

Brother I am so encouraged to read your words (and your name)and that you are hungering and thirsting after rightousness. Praise God!

Keep on and the door will be opened. I encourage you to read the testimonies of those who have entered in.

The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee might help you to see that the work of sanctification was done on the cross and all it takes is for faith from you that Christ can keep you from sin because His promises are true and when you step out in faith He will keep His promise. Hallelulia! I am prying for you brother. (I am a sister by the way)

QUOTE : Though I see people agreeing with PaulWest's post, I don't see anyone actually trying to understand what he has said. Jesus died so that I might have power to overcome SIN in my life. But does that mean I can be sinless perfect on this earth, the answer is NO. To understand further we need to know that there are two kinds of Sin, Conscious Sin and unconscious sin. A first grade student scoring 100% in Mathematics does not mean he knows everything in mathematics. The student may not know that multiplication and division even exists in mathematics. But based on what is thought to him in 1st grade mathematics, he is faultless or blameless. That is if he is thought only addition then he is blameless in adding any numbers.

Our Christian walk is also progressive. When we come to Christ God only reveals Sins in certain areas of our life. He will also give you grace to overcome the same. There is no reason for us to keep committing these sins. If we do then we are not under his grace, we live under law trying to overcome by our own power. But as we mature in our Christian walk, God will reveal to us new areas where we did not know even Sin exists. We have to repent and continue seeking God's grace in those areas. If we keep progressing this way, keeping our conscience absolutely clear before God like how Apostle Paul lived then we will be Sinless Prefect like Jesus when Jesus returns and when we see him face to face. END OF QUOTE

------------------------------------------------------------

You are talking about head knowledge and I admit that we have growth once we have been made pure. But if the heart is made pure then there is no need to have sin revealed gradually. That process occurs before heart purity in the run up to it if our hearts are open still to His teaching and we have not become hardened.

There is no such thing as hidden depths in a pure heart. It is impossible for the scripture tells us that both clean and polluted water cannot come forth together from a tap/faucet.

Please give your understanding of what the term sinless perfection means to you rather than what your definition of the crisis is.

I gave my testimony a while back - its on page 1 I think. Also I asked earlier why you think you have not entered in, maybe I can help you.

blessings to you brother

Will you please tell me where you got it from that Wesley and Whitefield experienced a second blessing together as all of the history I can find says that Wesley experienced it on his own and Whitefield never did.

They never worked together which you would expect if they shared the same doctrine although they were friends and as Wesley said Whitefield was one of the greatest preachers ever known as far as the gift is concerned.

Could you please make sure you spell the names correctly so we are sure who we are talking about.

I am fully persuaded that when the scripture tells us that Christ Himself became both the Wisdom of God, Righteousness, Sanctification and Redemption, that this is Christ Himself. It is not all men [saints] in experience, unless they first do comprehend it, by revelation of God and obey the inevitable desire to please God. There is another basis for knowing this wonderful truth; that of having sinned deeply. For such a person there is no greater evidence of the reality of scripture than in the life of one who has sinned greatly beyond what is common to all men and still finds that before the Father there is forgiveness and life. Yet all have sinned for which sin Christ died. If the Father permits men to stumble in order that they might appropriate for themselves such an understanding then this may seem too much for many believers to accept. Yet it is the case in my own experience. I am not free to explain this nor do I intend to try. In thinking about it I would simply say consider Adam before he disobeyed God. He was without sin and walked with God face to face. Consider the giving of the Law of Moses, by which sin is become exceeding sinful. By it we are able to comprehend that we cannot keep the righteous demand, which the Law of God makes on Israel [men]. Then consider Christ who is our garment before God. Who has the power to set aside Christ? Finally consider Christ in us by the Holy Spirit Who is our power of God to bear witness of Christ before men without hypocrisy. Who knowing Christ does not desire to be like Him, pleasing to the Father, because He is just and merciful and good? Or else who being blessed with a revelation of God, yet in all respects being righteous according to the Law [the apostle Paul] yet would not count it all rubbish comprehending what is gained in Christ?

Nee did not teach confusion. Throughout his ministry Nee believed and taught what might be called positional salvation. The one is our position in Christ before the Father. The other is our position in the world before men. The one is in the spirit, the other the flesh. Knowing what the Father has accomplished in Christ is the basis for working it out before men. The one, that of Christ is the testimony of the Father. The other is the testimony of Christ in us. The spirit before the Father, the Soul before men. When Adam sinned the effect was clearly to make Adam Himself fearful of God. It did not make God Himself less desirous of being with Adam. Of course to be with Adam after the fall necessitated the shedding of blood. As nakedness was the first thing to be perceived by Adam and Eve, only thereafter fear of God, then these two things were dealt with simultaneously in clothing them. The one is the shedding of blood. The other is the putting on of a garment to cover nakedness. What follows after this act of mercy by God meant that at least for the moment of God judging their actions they could stand once again in God’ presence without fear. They could also permanently stand before one another without shame. Is this not the fullness of the work of Christ? The putting off of His body through death in order that we might be clothed in Christ.

It seems incomprehensible to me that anyone who has conviction of sin and the knowledge of Christ’ death and resurrection, could hold that simply as head knowledge. It is unfathomable without the Holy Spirit. It is also a childish reality of being born again. If we never even moved beyond this we would have more than all the world of men together. Could Satan persuade even one of us to renounce Christ if we truly understood it? Perhaps, in a pressing into the flesh he could. Yet for all that the Father will not renounce us. This is the practical reality of a new life in Christ, it means to be evermore purchased and secure before the Father in heaven. In seeking to work out our time in this body of sin and death which we all inhabit if we draw breath, that is a more difficult thing. Yet that must be predicated on what Christ has done before the Father in heaven, which work we are become. Holiness and the desire to be separate from the world as well as personal sanctification are to an end of obedience for Christ sake not our sake. Confusing our position in Christ before the Father with our position in the world before men for Christ sake leads to many confusing and difficult ideas, many of which become doctrines which divide. It is not without good reason that they are called doctrines of demons.

Dear Brother I am not irritated I only wish things to be clear and for references when claims are made about others. Here is where JW recieved the second blessing - on his own meaning without GW - of course he was in a chapel at the time - Aldersgate.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/journal.vi.ii.xvi.html

I know that some if not many will say that he was `saved` at this point, but you only have to read his sermons previously to know that he was indeed a believer and that he is talking about full salavtion or entire sanctification at the heart warming episode.

He could not possibly preach as he did prior to this with only head knowledge and anyway at that time churches were pretty much dead so the chances are of an evangelical preaching the true gospel of putting ones trust in Christ alone for salvation to be coming from an unsaved man albeit a religious unsaved man ie a liberal, are impossible.

If you give references when you say what others have said then we can look them up thanks.

blessings to you

Hebrews 10:14
because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

This verse out of Hebrews implies both a positional holiness and a practical holiness. The positional holiness is God has made us holy through the atoning sacrificial work of Christ. Our response is to believe in his sacrificial death on the cross.

But the practical side of holiness is being worked out through the Holy Spirit working in the believer to tranform him into Christlikeness. This is the ongoing work of sanctification by the believer working out his salvation as Christ is working through the believer. The truth is marvelously depicted in Phil.2:13.

Saints there is no one time you get um practical holiness before Jesus. It is a growth process wrought by the Holy Spirit working in the heart of the believer. Then the believer has to walk this out by daily crucifying the flesh by taking up their cross to follow Jesus (Luke 9:23; Gal.2:20).

We are in a daily war with sin. Though we are new creations in Christ we still battle with a body of flesh energized by sin. Hence the exhortations of Peter to abstain from sinful desires that wage war against our souls 1 Peter 2:11). And Paul telling Timothy and us to flee youthful lust (2 Tim.2:22).

The New Testament exhorts us to pursue practical holiness in passages such as 2 Cor. 6:14-7:1, Heb.12:14, and 1 Pet. 1:14-16. Such a quest is done in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Brothers and sisters, there is no short cut or instant sanctification. But it is growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus himself. Being transformed into his likeness.

Bearmaster.

QUOTE : 3 the establishment of the self as a "power for life," a center of energy, an actual parent of spiritual vitality in other men END OF QUOTE

Well that is certainly well off. It is Christ who is to be our power for life.

I agree with you for distancing yourself from this. What I was hoping for however was for people to say what they think sinless perfection actually means doctrinally because it is my belief that most people dont know and think it is something like saying that a person has never sinned at all in their life.

Brother Oracio

Well it depends on what one, means by saved. For me, in its fullest meaning it is that one is saved from sin as scripture says that Christ came to save us from sins, washing us from them in His own blood Rev 1:5. The scriptures are clear but men add to them with words like `lifestyle` etc.

So I think that one can be a believer yet still sin though saved from the worlds thinking and separated in that way, to be conformed to the image of Christ through sanctification.

“Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

This verse out of Hebrews implies both a positional holiness and a practical holiness. The positional holiness is God has made us holy through the atoning sacrificial work of Christ. Our response is to believe in his sacrificial death on the cross.” End Quote

In John 17: 15-26, as I quoted earlier, Jesus prays for His disciples, and says: ' I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil. . . . Sanctify them . . . that they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us . . . I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one . . . that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them.'

It is first sanctification (cleansing, being made holy), then filling, divine union with the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit.

The Scriptures make plain the order of God's work, and if we looked at them alone, without diligently comparing Scripture with Scripture, as God would have us do, we might perhaps conclude that the cleansing and filling were as distinct and separate in time as they are in this order of statement.

What is the meaning of made perfect? Does the bible teach that we can be in sin, yet when God looks at us He only sees Christ and His righteousness and not our sin? Or does it teach that when a Christian sins that he/she is to be treated as a disobedient child until he/she repents? In other words what did Christ go to the cross for?

I have a hard time believing because of all the other scriptures, which have not been quoted by you bearmaster, that Christ’s blood is not able to cleanse our hearts of ALL unrighteousness and that when we are led and controlled by the Holy Spirit that we are not holy. What is the difference between the Old and New Covenant? There are better promises in the New, like the Promise of the Holy Spirit, which we could not receive unless Jesus went to the cross. Remember the Holy Spirit is a Person, not a power that we can get a hold of an use as we will. No, He is a Person, with a divine and perfect nature, who gets control of us and uses us. We are supposed to be vessels useful to the Master, but in order for us to be useful we must be clean and have a pure heart.

God had struggled with the stiff-necked, hardhearted and disobedient Jews and He taught them and ALL of His people (that includes us) that the Law tutors us to Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the flesh to submit to the things of God, for it is an enemy of God. The Law is holy, but it cannot make His people holy.

So, if the Person of the Holy Spirit is in control then what is the fruit (not fruits) of the Holy Spirit? Does not the Holy Spirit have a divine nature and if He is leading and controlling us will we not be partakers of it and walk in the same manner as Christ walked?

I do not believe God wants me to continue in this thread anymore and I will pray some more one it, but I believe this is my last post. There has already been MANY saints of old who have exhausted and defended the doctrine of Christian Perfection, how to obtain a pure heart that is cleansed of inbred sin, and how to fellowship with the Father and Son and to become One with them. Just because my walk does not line up with the scriptures, does not mean that the doctrine is unsound or false. I agree with God even though I have not yet received all that He presently wants to give me.

Additionally, I really do not know what was the intent of this post, but God is the judge. I for one started to join it because I thought there would be an openness by all His people to learn more of Him and His perfect will, not to defend our doctrines, but to seek and gain more of Him. To build others up and not to tear down earnest seekers who want more of Christ. I honestly am just a broken and sinful man who is hungering and thirsting for righteousness, while holding to one of the many promises that I will be filled. Also, I hope to find fellowship along the way as I am currently alone with my wife right now, we recently relocated to Florida.

“He wants us all to come to Tabernacle in the Rest of His finished work as an unshakeable foundation for all of our life and Godliness. It is a deep and stable intimacy in Him.

It has been missed today, not because it is too high, but because it is too lowly, too simple, too faithful and too costly. It has been instinctively hated, persecuted and reviled because it applies a total and final death to personally cherished ambitions, worldliness, flesh and devils. Only those who have first wholly decided to follow Him with their whole hearts "though He slay me" (Job 13:15, Gen. 22:10) can qualify for this promised transformation.

It is not new, high or exotic; it is foundational to primitive Bible Christianity as preached by Paul. He called it perfection- but this word needs to be understood properly. It was the secret of success for many of the more recent spiritual giants that we still revere, such as Madame Guyon, the Wesleys, Adam Clarke, Rees Howells, C.T. Studd, John Fletcher, Oswald Chambers, Matthew Henry, "Praying" Hyde, Smith Wigglesworth, John G. Lake and many, many others.

Before the Azusa Street revival in 1910 "complete sanctification" was widely preached and experienced. This was the power behind those former times of the Great Awakening when His Spirit fell bringing great conviction and transformations to whole communities at once. It must be noted that this was without the same benefits of the access to the comforts of easy access to information, outreach budgets, the mass media or big warm buildings. Instead, they had privation accompanied by strong persecution from the established church.

In brief, this is how they viewed their mandate: "The whole design of God was to restore man to his image, and raise him from the ruins of his fall; in a word, to make him perfect; to blot out all his sins, purify his soul, and fill him with all holiness, so that no unholy temper, evil desire, or impure affection or passion shall either lodge or have any being within him. This and this only is true religion, or Christian perfection; and a less salvation than this would be dishonorable to the sacrifice of Christ and the operation of the Holy Ghost.... Call it by what name we please, it must imply the pardon of all transgression and the removal of the whole body of sin and death.... This, then, is what I plead for, pray for, and heartily recommend to all true believers, under the name of Christian perfection." Adam Clarke

The coming Kingdom Church will be characterized by two distinct blessings for us to faithfully pour out before His throne. Initial salvation will be completed by His Rest. They are both given and strengthened by the Comforter. His matchless anointing will Tabernacle upon the firm foundation of a supernaturally established pure heart: this will make commonplace lives of blameless authority and stable great anointing” (Tom Plumb).

Love in Christ's name,

Kenneth and Bia

Brother I am not defending any theological position. My understanding of sanctification or the Biblical holiness God requires of his people comes out of my daily reading of the New Testament. This the scriptures I share are only what the Spirit has shown me from his word. Thus I share them here in this thread.

As I said in an earlier thread we would do well to put Wesley and the other holiness preachers aside and go to the New Testament and let the Holy Spirit instruct us. Then much confusion would be put aside. And much wounds be gleaned on the issue of practical Biblical holiness.

Bearmaster.

Brother what has the question got to do with whether the doctrine is true or not? Even if you never find anyone who claims to be without sin is that what you will base your decision on as to whether it is true or not?

Anyone who claims to be without sin is usually subject to having people try to trip them up so they can pounce on them. Strangely enough Jesus went through this too. The ungodly see everything as ungodly.

I think our brother TMK bas posed a ligitimate question. And he has recieved no answer. Has anyone who believes in "sinless perfection" or "entire or complete sanctification" ever sinned?

Brother I do not hold to either of the positions above. And yes. I have sinned. And God has forgiven me when I repent and confess that sin.

Bearmaster.

Hi Gary

The eulogy given by JW that you have quoted (but haven`t given the source) says nothing about Whitefield supporting or experiencing entire sanctification. From the following link we read :

http://www.lcoggt.org/Articles/john_wesley_and_the_second_bless.htm

QUOTE Whitefield called Wesley’s new teaching, about which he heard in America , “sinless perfection,” an accurate term in his view of the issue raised by Wesley’s idea that a second work of grace brought cleansing from the remains of inbred corruption, or from inbred sin. Whitefield’s rejection of this idea hastened and was hastened by his growing identification with Calvinist evangelicals in America and Scotland . It led directly to the young evangelist’s public break with the Wesleys over both that issue and the doctrine of predestination on the eve of his return from America in January and February, 1741.[1]END OF QUOTE

Brenda

Brother I am not dodging your question. I have been considering how to answer.

QUOTE My question is do you ever have an unkind thought, speak a word of sarcasm, show less compassion than you should, or any of another thousand possibilities of sin that rise up in our flesh? END OF QUOTE

The state of entire sanctification is one where the sins you mention, even the unkind thought, do not occur. I know this because I have walked in this state as I have said before on this forum and have also said that I had a period where I lost my assurance and was merely walking in a state of avoiding conscious sin.

Now you want me to say whether I am without sin at this present time. I have decided not to answer the question for the following reason.

Although it would not be unsafe for me to look at myself to see if I sin, like Peter on the water, as one is very conscious indeed to be in this state, I do not feel it useful at this time to do so. I do not feel led to do so.

I would testify to those who are deeply seeking for the experience but for those whose motive is unclear, and possibly ungodly I feel it woud be unhelpful to answer.

I would not wish to bring God`s wrath upon mockers though I am not saying that you are a mocker. I also do not wish to bring upon myself the wrath of Satan, as I am in a very fragile state of health though I am being healed.

You say that it isimportant to know so you can know if the doctrine is true. But I could be deceiving myself, and if you did make me publically commit a sin that would not disprove the doctrine. It would just disprove my belief that it applied to me.

I also do not want to have that amount of attention as we are discussing a doctrine.

So I must decline to give you a definate answer apart from that I am not consciously sinning like others here.

QUOTE
‘About three in the morning, as we were continuing instant in prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, insomuch that many cried our for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground.

‘As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and amazement at the presence of his Majesty, we broke out with one voice, ‘We praise thee, O God; we acknowledge thee to be the Lord.’ (John Wesley Journal, Baker edition, p.170)END OF QUOTE

What is being described is revival, (its the only time men sit up praying through the night) and not all involved and blessed in revival are entirely sanctified. I believe that the revival came through Wesley being entirely sanctified. It usually comes through one person or maybe two then spreads.

I do not mean to mock. And in advance I apologize if it appears that way. But some in this forum are claiming to have arrived at a state that the Apostle Paul had not attained this side of glory.. When one reads Phillipians 3 Paul describes himself as not having attained the perfection of Christ. But he was pressing on to take hold of it. The greater part of that chapter describes Paul pressing in to take hold of Jesus Christ. Indeed he exhorts others to even follow his example.

Believing that Paul was one of most spiritually minded men in the New Testament. Probably one of the most intimate with Jesus. There is nothing in his writings or his walk with Christ that suggest a sinless or complete state of sanctificattion.

His letters describes his pursuit of Christ and his holiness as a race (1Cor.9:24-27) a straining or pressing in (Phil.3:12-14); a struggle (Col.2:1), and a fight (1 Cor.9:26).

It is only when Paul is about to be executed by Nero does he tell Timothy I have faught the good fight, I have finished, the race, I have kept the faith. Hardly the testimony of one who would be in a state of complete.sanctification this side of glory. Paul's experience does not mirror a let go and let God. But his experience reflects more of a man of faith pursuing after the holiness of Christ himself. Indeed running after Christ himself.

By the way if one were to ask Paul if he had sinned in his experience of following Christ. His answer would be found in 1 Tim.1:15. Paul would answer that he is the worst or the chief of sinners.

I suggest that some are claiming an experience that Paul himself never arrived at not did he articulate in his letters. As I have said repeatedly we do well to put down Wesley and pick up our New Testamrnts for teaching in practical biblical holiness.

Bearmaster.

Bill may we be as those five year olds to understand the simple word of God. Thank you for sharing the verses out of 1 John.

Mr. Bear.

Iracio I agree brother. This doctrine of sinless perfection or complrte sanctification falls short of the New Testament.

Bear.

New Testament account of the doctrine of holiness, purity of heart, perfection and entire sanctification:

“Be ye holy; for I am holy” (I Pet. 1:16).

“Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 4:48).

“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure” (1 John 3:3).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord” (Heb. 12:14).

“My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1).

“Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8).

“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (II Cor. 7:1).

“Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled” (Matt. 5:6).

“If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin” (I John 1:7).

“There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear” (I John 4:18).

“Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus” (Col. 1:28).

“But whoso keepeth his word in him verily is the love of God perfected” (I John 2:5).

“And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness” (Eph. 4:24).

“Wherefore Jesus also, that be might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate” (Heb. 13:12).

“And this also we wish, even your perfection” (II Cor. 13:9).

“To the end that he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before God” (I Thess. 3:13).

“For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness” (I Thess. 4:7).

“This is the will of God, even your sanctification” (I Thess. 4:3).

“God hath chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth” (II Thess. 2:13).

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ; from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body, unto the edifying of itself in love” (Eph. 4:11-16).

“Your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thess. 5:23)

“4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’sb seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother" (1 John 3:5-9).

I have found this from

http://www.lcoggt.org/Articles/george_whitefield_and_wesleyan_p.htm

"Whitefield wrote directly to John Wesley, in answer to Wesley’s letter of March 25, which does not now exist. "I think I have for some time known what it is to have righteousness, peace, and joy in the HOLY Ghost," Whitefield began, quoting words of St. Paul (Romans 14:17) that Wesley used constantly to describe what it meant to be a child of God. "But I cannot say I am free from indwelling sin; no, I find a law in my members warring against the law of my mind, that makes me to cry out, even now, ‘Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?’" (Romans 7:24). These words suggest that the evangelist did not yet comprehend fully that Wesley was now teaching that deliverance from the inward bent to sinning was promised in a second work of grace, beyond the new birth. For he cited then the article in the Anglican creed that Wesley still and always heartily affirmed, declaring inward corruption to remain in those who have experienced regeneration. "I am sorry, honoured Sir," Whitefield continued "to hear by many letters that you seem to own a sinless perfection in this life attainable." On the contrary, he reasoned, the continual struggle with inbred sin is necessary to keep a Christian humble "and to drive him constantly to Jesus for pardon and forgiveness." True, he acknowledged, many abuse this teaching "and perhaps willfully indulge sin, or do not aspire after holiness." But he could not on that account "assert doctrines contrary to the gospel." Wesley must have been startled to read the words, "I know no sin (except that against the Holy Ghost), that a child of God (if God should withhold his grace) may not be guilty of." Was this, indeed, the same man who had written the sermon on "Marks of the New Birth?"57

The letter did not, however, mean that Whitefield had abandoned the teaching both men knew they shared with Pietists, Quakers, and Puritans—that the power of the Holy Spirit enabled persons who were truly born again to overcome temptation. Whitefield had simply begun to rely on the doctrines of election and final perseverance to deal with the fact that they often yielded to it, as did King David, whom Scripture called "a man after God’s own heart," and Peter, who denied his Lord.58 The very next day, however, the evangelist explained to another correspondent what must have been for him a new understanding of the link between a predestined new birth and the assurance of final salvation: "Thus (says Saint Paul) ‘those whom He justified, them He also glorified’; so that if a man was once justified, he remains so to all eternity."

59 George Whitefield, Boston, September 26, 1740, to "Mr. I.," in Letters, I, 213–14."

It seems that Whitefield did at one time listen to Wesleys entire sanctification teaching but later when he was in America, turned more to Calvinistic teaching and departed from what Wesley was teaching. It seems that he had been longing for the blessing of imparted rightoueness but then decided on imputed righteousness which indeed brings ease to the conscience. Many do the same thing not knowing that the unrest is the work of the Holy Spirit but then they quench Him.

No doubt Whitefield retained the passion and some of the teaching he had heard from Wesley and the others who had been entirely sanctified.

Collin, indeed I do not sere the passages in Phillippians as you do. The pressing on, the striving is a desire to know Christ himself. The prize is Christ himself. Paul is not saying in any sense he had arrived in a state ifccomplete sanctification as you reason. But is pressing on toward that goal to be with Jesus himself.

If you miss Jesus. Then you are missing the target.

Bearmaster.

Dave I hope I am not quoting scripture to proof text. You are right that books of the Bible, particularly the New Testament must be read in their entirety. Even the New Testament from Mathew to Revelation.

As I do read through the New Testament I find the position of sinless perfection or complrte sanctification to be lacking. What I do see are exhortaions and commands for believers to pursue practical biblical holiness through the power of the Holy Spirit.

I am not a student of Wesley, Whitfield, or some of those found in the higher life or Keswick movement. My understanding of practical holiness is drawn from my reading of the New Testament in a systematic way. I have tried to reflect that in ny posts.

Bearmaster.

Heydave: you are right and we must not take verses out of context, but that does not mean we cannot quote a single verse alone as long as it is quoted within context. Obviously, it would be exhaustive for me to quote the whole chapter, epistle, etc. Jesus and the Apostles oftentimes quoted one verse from the O.T. and likewise many other saints have quoted single verses out of the N.T. throughout all the ages. Yet, you are right that it must be within context. Therefore, if God will lead me then I will revisit each of the verses that I quoted to ensure that they were quoted within context. The Holy Spirit is the true teacher and guide and I am just the laborer. May He bring to light those things which are hidden in darkness, so that Christ may receive the glory, honor and praise in everything we do, say or think.

In regard to me quoting 1 John 8 out of context, you are right. John says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Some interpret this verse as applicable to the victorious Christian just the same as it applies to any other person. But to interpret it then forces the apostle to contradict himself. John has just stated that if we walk in the light as God is in the light we are cleansed from "all sin." He cannot mean, then, in the next verse, that no people are without sin; obviously one cannot be cleansed from all sin and have a sinful nature at the same time. The apostle makes his meaning clear in verse 10: "If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar." In verse eight John is saying, then, that all men are sinners in need of cleansing; but he clearly assumes that some have been, or at least may be, cleansed "from all sin." To isolate verse 8 is to do violence to the sense of the passage.

1 Corithians 9:24-27
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimkessky ;I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached others, I myself will not be disqualified.

This is hardly the testimony of a man who is letting go and letting God. Hardly the testimony of a man who has arrived at his state of complete sanctification. What we do see is a man who is striving after Jesus. A man who us striving after the holiness of Jesus.

These verses are set in the context of Paul's teaching on Christian liberty to the Corithians. Even though he was an an apostle and could have exercised his liberty among the Corithians. He denied himself and pressed on in the race to live a holy life Paul wanted a testimony so that after he preached to others, he would not be disqualified for the prize.

I belueve we would do well to heed the words of what Paul is saying and apply them to our lives.

Bearmaster.

“For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God” (Hebrews 7:19).

“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all” (James 2:10).

“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” (Romans 8: 3-4).

What does it mean when the scriptures say that Christ, “condemned sin in the flesh”?

Also, when we walk according to the Holy Spirit is there still sin in our heart? Can the Spirit sanctify, i.e., make the heart clean of all sin? Can we be holy as Christ is holy, while living under grace and not the law? If we are partakers of the Divine nature have we escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust? If we are walking in the Spirit is not the flesh with the affections and lusts crucified?

QUOTE 1 Corithians 9:24-27
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimkessky ;I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached others, I myself will not be disqualified.END OF QUOTE

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Paul is talking about physical discipline to enable him to preach the gospel and win men. He likens it to a race that is, having that level of motivation. It does not say at all that it is about holiness. It is necessary for all true preachers of the gospel to live such a life of discipline. I myself am living on brown rice, pulse and vegetables for that reason.

Sister the pursuit of holiness requires a holy discipline. This is why Paul tells Timothy to train yourself for godliness (1 Tim. 4:7). Thus the verses I quoted can be applied to the pursuit of holiness.

Bearmaster.

Dear brother Heydave: if you read all of my prior posts carefully you will CLEARLY see that I never said "to be cleansed of all sin does not mean we will become sinless in the sense we will never sin again." I believe this is a fallacy and a false doctrine and I hope that I never implied that I believe this way. However, if we are cleansed from all sin and continue to walk in the Spirit, I do believe Christ is able to keep us from stumbling and preserve us blameless as He has promised. Let's go on to maturity.

Heydave: Please do not misrepresent what I have said brother. I do not need to restate what I have already said in regard to Christian perfection, but as the Lord leads I will continue to post.

I have not seen anywhere in this post where someone is claiming to arrive at a place where it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to NEVER sin again. Is this really the intent of this post? What are we trying to accomplish by making such an accusation against a brother? Have we addressed the brother that believes in such a way in private? Maybe I need to revisit everyone's comments, and please if someone has stated such then please bring this to my attention; I want to greet such a one with a holy kiss and encourage him to go all the way with the Lord. Unless the Lord reveals to me and other saints that he is not born again. Yes, I agree terminology might be different, but it is not so much the terms, but how one lives his/her life and the testimony that they bear witness to.

Let us be known for our love toward one another, tenderheartedness toward one another, being merciful, considering others better than yourself, gentle, humble, lowly, and meek, while taking the log out of our own eye so we can see clearly to help a brother who has stumbled. KM

Brother I do not believe anybody is accusing anybody of anything. For such a controversial issue the postings have been fairly civil. There is obvious disagreement. But I do believe we are playing the ball and not the man.

Personally I am pleased how the thread has run and hope the postings tontinue to be civil. I believe much can be learned and gleaned. Even in differing views in an issue.

Nay God continue to guide our discussions.

Bearmaster.

Good to know this brother Bearmaster.

I for one have really benefited from it as well. It has made me search the scriptures deeper and see if these things be so. Plus, I do not have fellowship right now so God has been using this post to encourage me. :)

You raise some interesting thoughts. Will reflect on them. Thank you for the testimony.

Bearmaster

Dave this was why the thread was opened. To discuss the issue of sinless perfection and cause us to see what God really says on this subject.

Bearmaster

I think that the title of this thread is not the best one it could be. This is because of the confusion over what sinless perfection is.

No matter how often it is explained that SP does not mean that it is impossible to sin again, the same thing keeps on coming up.

I have often met detractors who purposely do this but I trust that this is not happening here and it is genuine confusion.

I suggest that the thread is called instead "Is it possible to live without sin?"

I started this thread. So if it will engender more fruitful discussion then I will change the name to what you suggested.I am sure the mods willl approve.

Bearmaster.

Thanks bear :)

Heydave, Bearmaster, murrcolr, krautfrau, etc: thank you for what you all have said thus far and I agree with changing the name of the thread.

FYI, I have sent this thread to a few saints and I have received a couple of email responses on how impressed and encouraged they were to see how we respected one another during this oftentimes controversial doctrine of discussion.

Indeed God is calling His bride to remain in the love of God and to put others interests before our own, while considering others more highly and better than our self. Jesus is the perfect example of this, because He humbled Himself and became a servant, we also in like manner must learn to serve one another and love one another.

I have more to post and I am looking forward to growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ together with each of you. KM

The nuances contained in the word "perfection" have confused many for centuries. Perfection is not synonymous with entire sanctification. It is wider in meaning, just as the word "cosmos" is wider and deeper in meaning than "sky". Wesley used it while aware of this, but this theologian's penetrating analysis clarifies any remaining confusion for us. 5 pages by the sanctified theologian J. Sidlow Baxter (1967) are found at the link below:

http://www.enterhisrest.org/doorway/perfection_scriptural.pdf

I will ONLY quote from the first page to hopefully grab your interest, but let us respect the author and read the whole 5 page document before we make any comments. It might take me a couple of days to thoroughly read through it so I am going to take a break from this thread, unless commenting on another post, which is not related to this article. Please find the first page quoted below:

"THE phrase, “Christian perfection” might well suggest a triumphant culmination; but it is a misnomer. It was coined by John Wesley. During forty years he used it and preached the doctrine which it represented, despite the fact that it aroused more opposition than any other aspect of his teaching. In Sermon 40 he tells us why he clung to it.

“Some have advised [us] wholly to lay aside the use of those expressions [‘perfect’ and ‘perfection’] ‘because they have given so great offence’. But are they not found in the Oracles of God? If so, by what authority can any messenger of God lay them aside, even though all men should be offended?”

But are those expressions found in Scripture? And is Wesley’s doctrine of “Christian Perfection” truly Scriptural? Believing, as I do, in Wesley’s unimpeachable sincerity, I would be the last man ever to suggest “special pleading” on his part; yet the way he appropriates or handles some of his supposed proof-texts is as innocently gratuitous as it is utterly sincere. I mention just one instance here. In his Plain Account of Christian Perfection, he thus appropriates Matthew 5:48 (“Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”):

Now it is obvious that our Lord, exhorting that long-ago mixed crowd in Galilee, before Calvary and Pentecost, could not possibly have meant “perfect” in the Wesley sense of eradication and entire sanctification. There is not a syllable in the context to suggest so; nor would those people have understood it even if that had been what He meant, for the Spirit was not yet given at Pentecost, nor were the people of that promiscuous multitude “They wanted, they sought, occasion against me; there they found what they sought. ‘This is Mr. Wesley’s doctrine! He preaches perfection” He does: yet this is not his doctrine any more than it is yours or anyone else who is a minister of Christ. For it is His doctrine, peculiarly, emphatically His! It is the doctrine of Jesus Christ. Those are His
words, not mine: (original language: EcecUe oi2v i5ueiç ré~.Zetot &a7zee 6 t5,acZv 6 e’vtoiç 3i3~avoiç r~Aetdç.’) Ye shall therefore be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.’ And who says ye shall not; or at least, not till your soul is separated from the body? It is the doctrine of St. Paul, the doctrine of St. James, of St. Peter and St. John; and not otherwise Mr. Wesley’s than as it is the doctrine of every one who preaches the pure and the whole gospel. I tell you, as plain as I can speak, where and when I found this. I found it in the oracles of God, in the Old and the New Testament when I read them with no other view or desire but to save my own soul” (Baxter, J. Sidlow, 1967, pg.1, Is “Christian Perfection” Scriptural?).

Heydave: I see your point and it was stated very clearly. However, I believe there have been others who wanted to comment on this thread, but because of the original title and all the inherent controversy of the terms sinless perfection, perfection, etc., some have refrained. One thing for sure is that we have already firmly established that it is unbiblical to believe that a Christian can reach a state where it is IMPOSSIBLE to sin. Maybe now we can hear from some of the other saints concerning holiness and a pure heart.

Also, maybe now God is using this thread to open our hearts and minds to the Spirit so He can teach us more on the doctrine of holiness and a pure heart. I have been drawn by the Spirit and my own spiritual hunger to post on this thread. There has been so much division and debate in the church regarding the ability to live the Christian life without sin, maybe this thread will help us to better understand God's heart concerning sin in the believers.

Finally, I believe both Bearmaster and the Moderators seek to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and to do the will of God; therefore, let's see how the Holy Spirit will lead us before we decide to close down this thread and start another. I am hoping that others will join and that God will bring a furthering of unity among those who are posting on Sermonindex forums. God knows we need the love and encouragement of the saints.

KM

The problem with the discussion being about sinless perfection, is that it was not clear whether it was to be regarding whether it is possible for a believer to reach a stage where he can avoid conscuous sin or whether there is a stage where unconscious sin can be avoided too, which is what sinless perfection is generally understood as. The first option is usually known as Christian Perfection as understood by Wesley followers. However there is still some confusion there as his writtings seem to be of both.

Or was the discussion about whether sinning cannot be avoided in this life. The way it was going, showed that the later was the main item and it was not moving forward from that.

Saints can a believer live without sin? That certainly should be our desire in our pursuit of practical holiness. But reality is we live in a sinful world with a body of flesh that is continually tempted by sin. The believer is daily putting to death the misdeeds of the body.

Bearmaster.

It is possible one can avoid sinning. But then it is possible one can avoid getting the flu. You boost your immune system by taking vitamins and eating right. Exercising. Avoiding exposure to those with flue. Maybe getting a flue shot. But despite these precautions. One can still get the flu.

The same with avoiding sin. You stay in the word and prayer. Hang with godly people. Cut off stinuai that may provoke sin. But there are times when the believer will fall into sin. Tbis the marvelous provision of 1 John 1:9.

Bearmaster.

QUOTE My confusion is this. If some believe that you can come to a place of receiving an experience where from that point you won't sin ever again, I don't think that is right. However if they say it is possible to fall from this blessing and therefore sin again, what is this discussion all about? The outworking is the same is it not and we are just disagreeing about terminology or perspectives. The reality in this case would be the same. i.e. If we walk in the Spirit we will not sin, but if we fall into the flesh we will sin.

So in summary is anyone claiming that they can receive a 'blessing' that from that point on they will never sin again? If not then all pretty much agree that you will not be sinless / without sin (period), even if it is expressed in different terms. END OF QUOTE

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Brother, we are talking about two distinctive states. In one, you do not have faith that Christ can keep you from sin as a normal state of being. So even if you do desire to be holy, you do not expect your normal state to be without sinning. In the other state known as entire sanctification, perfection etc you believe that Christ provided the power to keep us from sin if we have faith in that, and although it is possible to fall from that state and hopefully soon be restored, being without sin is the normal state and that is for possibly for the rest of your life if you do not have a short relapse or two. Some have fallen away entirely though apparently.

We need to be clear what sin is. The sermon on the mount shows us that it is in thoughts as well as actions, and attitudes. Would you say it is normal to love God with your whole heart consistently from day to day and never put anything before Him? Never have an unkind thought, always to love ones enemy? That is what a sinless state is. If one is still sinning in this way then the provision is for them to come to Christ and be forgiven fornot walking in that state 1John 1:9 and then walk as in sermon on the mount. After that there is no such thing as constant coming for forgiveness. That is crucifying the Lord again.

krautfrau: QUOTE: "If one is still sinning in this way then the provision is for them to come to Christ and be forgiven fornot walking in that state 1John 1:9 and then walk as in sermon on the mount. After that there is no such thing as constant coming for forgiveness. That is crucifying the Lord again." END QUOTE

Wow, this could open up a whole-other discussion: "After that there is not such thing as constant coming for forgiveness. That is crucifying the Lord again." I sure hope we are mature enough to not get into the "Once Saved Always Saved" debate in whether it is true or false. This debate is one of greatest controversies and means of division among His beloved. Please let's hold to the topic, even though I realize you might feel this statement is related. Let's press on to maturity and preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

FYI, I just finished reading the article I posted on "Is Christian Perfection Scriptural?" I believe it is so RELEVANT to this thread. I am going to read through it again. It was well written and has brought out some great words of wisdom regarding the proper understanding of the term "perfection" as used in the holy scriptures and among the saints. Also, it looks like I have been incorrectly using the verses where perfection is used and it looks like I will have to change the way I have been believing. Thank the Lord for those teachers who understand and can teach from the Greek New Testament. KM

QUOTE Wrapped up invisibly in that simple manifesto of his is his doctrine of eradication;
the complete destruction of the “old nature”, the utter extinction of “inbred sin”, the
instantaneous cleansing away of all evil thoughts and tempers—all based on a
misunderstanding of Romans 6: 6, 1 John 1:7, and on an inadequate view of sin.END OF QUOTE

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I don`t understand why on earth Tom Plumb, owner of the Enter His Rest, has this Calvinist writer on his site. He already has been indescriminately putting Pentecostal and holiness writings together despite them being oppositional and now he is quoting men who oppose Wesley, who Plumb is supposed to follow.

QUOTE Wow, this could open up a whole-other discussion: "After that there is not such thing as constant coming for forgiveness. That is crucifying the Lord again." I sure hope we are mature enough to not get into the "Once Saved Always Saved" debate in whether it is true or false. This debate is one of greatest controversies and means of division among His beloved. Please let's hold to the topic, even though I realize you might feel this statement is related. Let's press on to maturity and preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.END OF QUOTE

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Its nothing to do with OSAS. I certainly don`t hold that position as it is understood. What I meant was that we cannot take grace for granted.

Brother

There are Greek scholars who support holiness doctrine and can show that perfection means moral perfection. I don`t have the time atm to quote them but will try later.

krautfrau: There were some things that Baxter said that I do not agree with, but the reason I quoted from him was because he brought out some good points on the usage of perfection in scriptures. I thought he did a great job at that.

Dear brother, I do not understand your comment about being a Calvinist. In my mind either you are a Christian or not, I try not to participate in the labeling of other saints. I think I understand your point, if it is in reference to doctrines, but I am not sure so please explain.

You can email Tom P. or George D. and they will be happy to answer some of your concerns. I know Tom wrote the following article on the history of being "Baptized in the Holy Spirit." Please find the link: http://www.enterhisrest.org/

Remember, Tom P. runs this site by himself, with little to no help.

For the record I am just a Christian and that is what I testify to when asked by others. I am born again and His Spirit testifies to my spirit that I am His. I also believe anyone who is born again has something of God to share with others in the Body, as we all have a measure of the gift of Christ. "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ" (Eph. 4:7). Also: "On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23 and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24 whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it" (1 cor. 12). Therefore, even the members of His Body which seem weaker are necessary. Hence, the many diverse Christian authors, teachers, evangelists, etc., on Sermonindex.

Very sorry, but for some reason I cannot find the link to his writings on being "Baptized with the Holy Spirit," it appears that the article I read several months ago is no longer on the site. Again, sorry.

I like what Bearmaster said:

"Brother I am not defending any theological position. My understanding of sanctification or the Biblical holiness God requires of his people comes out of my daily reading of the New Testament. This the scriptures I share are only what the Spirit has shown me from his word. Thus I share them here in this thread.

As I said in an earlier thread we would do well to put Wesley (minus this part, I do not agree) and the other holiness preachers (and this part) aside and go to the New Testament and let the Holy Spirit instruct us (Amen to this last part, but many of us have claimed to have done this and look at the division we have in the church). Then much confusion would be put aside. And much wounds be gleaned on the issue of practical Biblical holiness." End quote

Lord have mercy on me!

Saints I am a blind man who deals in simple practicalities. I am no student kf Calvin, Wesley, Baxter, and you fill in the blank. But I do read the New Testament on a weekly basis.

In asking the question can a believer live without sin are we not asking that of ourselves? Are we not asking how can we be pleasing to God. Is not our desire to be holy as unto him.

I am suggesting we may want to bring this thread to a more practical level and ask how can we live without sin in a sin filled world.

After all this is the intent of the New Testament. It was written to show people how to kive a practical holy life in Jesus.

Bearmsster

Brother krautfrau, I do not want you to waste your time and money, I am sorry that you feel this way.

FYI, Tom Plumb sent me the link on the article from Baxter and he has been visiting this discussion on SI as I have made him aware of it.

Again, I really enjoyed the article and thought it was well written.

I am well capable to research other Greek scholars who support scriptural holiness and I will continue to do this as I am seeking more of Christ.

I agree with Bear that we should start focusing the discussion on: "I am suggesting we may want to bring this thread to a more practical level and ask how can we live without sin in a sin filled world." END QUOTE

Brother

The reason I was surprised that the article was on Tom`s site is because his site is for the promotion of holiness doctrine and any Calvinist is very much against the doctrine as demonstrated by J Sidlow Baxters words. I know Tom and have read most of the site btw. I am not against anyone who opposes the doctrine nor do I think that we cannot learn from them. I owe a great deal to Calvinsistic Greek scholars but when it comes to interpreting the Greek words concerning holiness, they are going to see things in a different way to holiness proponents especially regarding the aortist tense of a verb.

I like to quote my sources but today something has cropped up that needs my attention. I certainly would not consider it a waste of my time or energy.
blessings
Brenda

I am not German but your interpretation is correct unless you mean a cabbage. I have lived in Germany.

To answer your question, I believe that one may be saved from the power of sin but also, at a later stage saved from the presence of sin when the sin nature is eradicated, and one can know this by the witness of the holy spirit, such as the witness one gets when one knows they have been forgiven and come into a relationship with Christ. It is a witness to the spirit rather than the mind which is how we know what is truth. The reason why there are so many views is because most of them are coming from the mind and not from revelation. The conscience bearswitness that there is no sin. All believers experience this when theyfirst come to Christ and feel washed clean inside, but this time it lasts.

Sister respectfully your position is not in line with the New Testament. For sure we are being saved from the power of sin. This is an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. But the idea of the sin nature bring eradicated this side of glory is not found in the New Covenant writings. And one will be hard pressed to find such support for such a position.

The early believers saw their walk with Christ as an ongoing daily confession of sin. James 5:16.admonihes those who have sinned to confess THEIR SINS to one another and pray for one another so that they nay be healed. 1 John 1:9.admonihes those who have sinned to confess THEIR SINS and God who is faithful and just will forgive and purify them from all unrighteousness.

The early believers struggled with sin in their walk with Christ. Tbis is brought out in Hebrews 12:4 when the writer tells his readers that in their STRUGGLE WITH SIN they have not yet resisted to the point of shedding their blood.

I noticed that you would not answer the question when you were asked had you ever sinned. Paul calls himself THE WORST OF SINNERS or better known as the CHIEF OF SINNERS in 1 Timothy 1:16.

Sister, respectfully, the position of the sin nature being eradicated this side of glory is not found in the New Testament. Nor is it confirmed in the testimony of believers past and present.

Bearmaster.

Caps are for emphasis only. No yelling intended. Cannot underline on droid.

Galatians 5:16
So I say live by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Saints the above verse implies one can live a life free from the power of sin. But the living by the Spirit must be an ongoing moment by moment being filled by him. In Eph. 5:18 the ehortation is to be filled with the Spirit. I understand this is a continuing activity on the part of the believer. Namely to continuallly stay connected to God as the source of life. This is brought out in John 15:1-8. We must continue to remain or cling to Christ as the source of life to overcome sin's power.

This work of the Spirit is continually ongoing in the life if the believer. In Romans 8:13 Paul writes for if by the Spirit we put to death the misdeeds of the body. But this putting to death themisdeeds of tthe body is an ongoing reality in the life of the believer.

I am no tbeogian. But even tbis blind man can see from a large print New Testament that the believer is continually putting to death the sin nature with the help of the Spirit. Our sanctification is an ongoing reality of growth and obedience to Jesus Christ as we live by faith in him.

Bearmaster.

QUOTE Sister respectfully your position is not in line with the New Testament. For sure we are being saved from the power of sin. This is an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer. But the idea of the sin nature bring eradicated this side of glory is not found in the New Covenant writings. And one will be hard pressed to find such support for such a position.END OF QUOTE

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I agree entirely brother that there is an ongoing work. We are saved moment by moment so long as we stand in faith. We need the blood of Christ daily, nay every moment, to keep us washed. But while we walk in faith, we are cleansed. The new heart we have been given is operational. But if we step outside of that, if we step down from the cross, then we have lost that protection.

My Bible tells me in Romans 6:4 "How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein. Know ye not that so many of us as were baptised into Jesus Christ, were baptised unto His death. Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death. 6:6 Knowing this that our old man is crucified with Him that thre body of sin might be destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin"

I understand the body of sin to be the sin nature and the scripture says that it is destroyed. That means it is completely out of action acording to my understanding of death with the difference being that there s a daily `keeping under` of the body to keep it in the death position, which is not a struggle against it,which would not make sense of it is dead, but a daily reckoning that it is dead and we are finished with sin, However there is now the temptation of obeying the impulse from the human nature which is not sin part which has been destroyed.

This part is the natural instincts such as for food, the life preservation part, which must also come under the rulership of Christ. So we fast when the Spirit says do not eat. We disregard the human need for love when the Lord separates us for Himself alone.

amrkelly has quoted or written this elsewhere on the site which explains it very well :

"These three components or out workings of the life of the natural man may not always be sinful in themselves. A great many people seek to live natural and reasonable lives and succeed in many regards. A believer is no less the same. The difference between the believer and the unbeliever is that the believer knows that they must serve God as well as live a personal life before men. It is in this obedience of serving God that the soul itself becomes an obstacle to success. We are encouraged to walk in the spirit. Only then is the soul itself denied as a source of power and the power of the soul is subject to a renewed mind. This renewing of the mind is an outcome of being taught and led of the Holy Spirit in communion with our own spirit’s made alive in Christ Jesus. Soul power is not only useless to God when it is unrestrained by the Holy Spirit, but it is a very real danger to oneself as well as others."

If we are honest we will admit that teaching to keep the body down as a struggle against sin does not work in practice. There is no struggle with the sin nature that will work. It must be seen to be destroyed or out of action.

We see many scriptures that are for those who have not yet reached this point, the teaching is for babes, young men and men to be discerned appropriately, and it is a grave error to apply it to those who should now be of full stature. For example, to take the behaviour of the disciples pre Pentecost as the normal Christian life. Hebrews was written for the immature to encourage them to go on to enter His rest - the stage were are discussing.

Have I ever sinned? Yes indeed like Paul I am the chief of sinners, forever doubting the Lord and not putting my full trust in Him. Only through His loving patience has He brought me to a place of trust. In myself there is no good, it is only through the faith He gives me that I can stand and not fall.

There are many believers who have testified to the same thing and this site carries these testimonies.

Please let us keep to the spirit in which this thread was started.

It is not a war between theolgies but there has been a misunderstanding.

The same issue would come up if there was a site teaching Reformed Theology, and the owner had writings from Wesley promoting Arminianism but it was not clear that he was not teaching Calvinism. For those who are wanting to understand the doctrines of a theological system, it would lead to a great deal of confusion. This was my point.

We are instructed to search the scriptures together and that is what I believe we have been doing.

Brother I would agree that the old man, nature, etc. was crucified with Christ at the cross. But the reckoning you speak is is a daily thong the believer does. This is what Jesus meant when he said if we follow him. We are to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily to follow him. Also Paul articulates tbis in 1 Cor. 15 when he says I die daily. He also says that we are continually being given over to death for Jesus sake in 2 Cor. 4.

The reckoning is a daily thing the believer does by putting to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit. It is not a merely one time act. In essence we are in a holy war against sin.

Bearmaster.

Indeed brother, it is a daily thing to reckon we are dead to sin, but for most believers it has not moved down from the head to the heart. There has not been that decision to sin no more and then to trust Christ to keep us from sinning. if we think we cannot stop sinning, despite the scriptures that say we can, then our faith is lacking and we are not reckoning correctly. Once we realise that sin has no place in the believers life and we are faced with the sin that keeps cropping up in us, that we are powerless to stop, we will cry out like Paul for deliverance.

The fact of our death with Christ on the cross, has to be appropriated was we repent of our failures as an emissary of God, where we have brought shame on Him through our inconsistency and hypocrisy.

If we say we cannot stop sinning then we deny the power of the creator of the universe.

bearmaster, krautfrau, murrcolr, and heydave: These last few comments were all excellent in regard to "how we can live without sin in a sin filled world." Recently, some of my thoughts have been on willful sinning. First let me quote from the scriptures: “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:19-21). Also, "for the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot" (Romans 8:7). Also, a quote from the famous Paris Reidhead sermon: "When I got there I found out they knew about heaven, and didn't want to go there, and that they loved their sin and wanted to stay in it" (Ten Shekles and a Shirt). I have personally had to come to grips with each of these verses and others which are similar, that I am a sinner. And this one fact of sin and selfishness in the heart of man has been the root of all the destruction in the world. The Bible is very clear if you are in the flesh it is impossible to please God, but what is impossible with men is possible with God.

I have been a born again Christian for over 20 years and if there is one lesson I have clearly learned it is that as for me and my flesh dwells no good thing, my flesh is an enemy to God. I also have read the history of the church in regard to "how we can live without sin in a sin filled world," from Luther/Puritans to Wesley and those in between. And the only thing that I have read which made sense was that the sin nature and all of its propensities and inclinations must be put to death. But how can a sinner put it to death? We can quote scriptures all we want and say it is by the Spirit, by grace through faith, by a freewill choice on our part, etc., etc., but the reality in my life has been that I still sin because I am a sinner. Again, I am speaking from a practical view while realizing I must die daily, be crucified with Christ, the body of sin must be put to death, must put off the old man, deny self, live by faith or by Christ's faith, etc. However, I have to be honest with both God and man that I have sinned against God and before God alone have I done this evil in His sight. Likewise with Paul I exclaim: who shall save me from the body of this death? "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Additionally, this whole debate about willful sin, sin of omission and commission really makes no sense. I.e., when I sin it is because I wanted to sin, not because someone made me sin, the flesh made me do it, etc. No, let God be true and everyman a liar. God is Just in judging sinners and disobedient Christians. Like one brother posted recently: "because after reading this, I really am confused, is it healthy to push a discussion "Of God's Word" to the limits of confusion, just to satisfy our own personal beliefs or opinions." Well, in all honesty I am confused, but I am not pushing this discussion because of personal beliefs I am pushing it for the sake of my own soul. In honestly, pure brokenness and undoneness I am also confused, and we know who is the author of this. It would take to long to explain all my struggles with sin, but may God have mercy on me as I continue to diligently seek Him.

Lastly, I believe one of the reasons we sin is because we are trying to serve God alone and not by becoming one with each other by living and dwelling together in the unity of the Spirit. We are supposed to be encouraging one another DAILY lest any root of bitterness spring up and defile many. Instead we are divided on almost every point of doctrine, denomination, etc. Maybe if we repent of all this division and start loving one another according to God's will, then our love would cover a multitude of sins and we would be filled with ALL the fulness of God; and be the testimony of Christ on the earth that our blessed Lord and King is so worthy for us to be in these last days.

Is the issue that saints do not kniw that they are crucified with Christ? Or simply not choosing to pursue holiness at the practical level?

Bearmaster.

But Dave does bring a wise word of caution. Might I ask in the context of this discussion. Who among us is without sin?

Bearmaster.

QUOTE Krautfrau, I would caution you saying "but for most believers it has not moved down from the head to the heart." We really cannot judge if this is the case or not to say 'most' and we are in danger of placing ourselves above 'most'. I do know some who say 'we are just sinners saved by grace' and some by this may mean we cannot stop sinning, but I would say most do not mean this. However I don't like that saying myself as it gives no hope of victory over sin and misses the truth of the old man being crucified with Christ.END OF QUOTE

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I dont know many believers by their own admission that are experiencing the pure heart.

QUOTE Is the issue that saints do not kniw that they are crucified with Christ? Or simply not choosing to pursue holiness at the practical level?END OF QUOTE

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I think they all know it but the power of sin is not broken because there is a part we have to play in it. We have to reckon. After so many years of the Christian life, there are often issues that build up. There is a lack of trust due to things that have happened to us. It is often buried deep down and many times we are not really aware of it until something crops up.

This was what I found. I was angry way deep down with God. I felt that He had given me far more than I could deal with and was expecting too much of me. Of course I had been walking in the flesh and did not understand His power for overcoming.

The sin I had most problems with was anger. I would feel irritated easily and no matter how many times I resolved to gain control over it I could not.

But to get back to my feelings towards the Lord, a crisis came up and something I really wanted, really felt I needed, which was to be offered by the local authority, the house of my choice in a newly renovated housing complex. It was the one with the wonderful view overlookling a pine tree wooded valley. The houses apart from that one were all the same.

I felt that it would really ease the stress I was under with a handicapped child, and a difficult marriage to a man who I found out later had a drink problem.

I really prayed that the Lord would grant me this house. I was not being greedy I thought as it was just a small housing authority house but I have found that it is really important to me what I have to look at day after day. I suffer easily from depression due to my genetic defaults, which affect the way my body can absorb b vitamins. I did not know then but there was an answer to it ie taking high doses of b vitamins and other nutrients.

It makes a huge difference to me to look out onto trees outside and not a scruffy housing estate. Well to cut a long story short, we did not get the house. Instead we were allocated one across the road with no views.

I was so upset that weekend, and I came really close to throwing in the towel with my faith because it was yet another disappointment after a long line of them and a long life of sickness, childhood neglect and abuse including the advances of an peadophilic uncle .

My family had members with schizophrenia two who had committed suicide - my sister and eldest son, also due to these genes, and I was mercury poisoned as a young child.

Nothing good seemed to have happened in my life, and so I was really cut upabout the house falling through. I had reached a crisis point. I told God how I felt about Him and spent a few days in absolute agony of mind. Then eventually I saw that He had bought me at a great price and I had to decide whether I would accept everything He provided for me with gratitude.

I saw that I had been walking in the flesh and brought about many things because of this. I had notbeen living the crucified life and this crisis showed me my faults. I was struck down in deep repentance, into the dust begging forgiveness and mercy.

In an instant, He did a major work in my soul and delivered me from the battle that had raged inside. I had reckoned myself dead and He raised me up to a new and beautiful world where His presence which had been missing a great deal of time was there with me.

In three days I could barely sleep, because of His presence. He flooded me with love and taught me more in those three days than I had learned in 17 years previously of Bible study and listening to sermons.

I was on holy ground.

The power of sin had been broken and I could leave my dungeon. Since that day there have been many trials and then a major revelation about the presence of sin because although the power of sin had been broken, I was still unaware of certain remaining things. But I will leave that
for now, apart from saying that I believe this is the reason why many who were in the holiness movement and become disillusioned with their entire sanctification. They had reached the first part but there are two parts but please dont think that far ahead, for now the focus must be to seek revelation from God to enable you to enter into this blessing.

ps the house we were given was full of cat fleas and we all got pesticide poisoning when the local authority fumigated it with us in residence.

blessings
Brenda

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YqFmQ42lJY&feature=endscreen&NR=1

I have been listening to this message and it is very relevant to all that we have been speaking on. If you can at least listen to the first 10 mins., you will see he is covering all the points we have recently been discussing on "how we can live without sin in a sin filled world." Maybe you might be led to listen to the entire message. KM

Dear sister Brenda:

Thank you for all that you shared in regard to your testimony.

The following verse came to mind after I read it:

"From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus" (Gal. 6:17).

pilgrim777 said:

"2 Peter 2:14
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls:an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

The implication here is that those who cannot cease from sin are those who have "eyes full of adultery".

I believe the Holy Spirit is talking about spiritual adultery, too (especially).
Spiritual adultery = unfaithfulness to Jesus.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The Holy Spirit is saying our temple should not be defiled.

What kind of sin does not defile the temple?" END QUOTE

Dear brother: Have you ceased from sinning?

Also, was this a response to my post? The beginning of the chapter you quoted from in 2 Peter was written to: "false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves." Are you saying I am a false teacher? Please forgive me for this question, but I just want to clear up the intent of your post.

Also, if you have ceased from sin then please let us all know how you have done this, as this was one of the questions asked many times during this discussion.

What kind of sin does not defile the temple? Well, a little leaven leavens the whole lump and the bible tells us to remove the "wicked man," who will not stop sinning, from our mist. Because the temple of God is to be holy and without sin. Of course we must remove him/her for the purpose of winning them to repentance, but after he/she has repented then we welcome him/her back into the fellowship.

Thank you, Kenneth

Saints you nay want to read the parable by David Ravenhill entitled Free Car Wash for the Life Of the Car. This was posted by Greg earlier and is prsently on the board. Though David is addressing the Hyper Grace teaching. His message has bearing here. Perhaps the question needs to be asked. Do we ever get to a state in our Christian walk where we we stop repenting and confessing our sins before God? I know some were reluctant to admit to the question. Do they sin?

David Ravenhill is the son of Leonard Ravenhill.

Bearmaster.

Dear Brother Kenneth

Thank you for your kindness. What you said was very encouraging as I had not thought of that verse with regards to my trials. It reminded me that I made that commitment to suffer for Him and indeed it is an honour especially to be nothing amongst men, and even to have family betray us.

I watched the Zac Poonan video thanks. I`m hoping to find his teaching on Romans 7. I cant decide whether he is teaching gradual sanctification.I think he is but I`m not sure yet. This teaching is about improving the flesh which is impossible but is very popular at the moment. They talk about holiness which sounds good as the desire today is for holiness, but it is a rabbit trail. The preachers admit themselves that they are not there yet one must be to be able to guide others.

Pilgrim777 wrote:

"Contrary to popular opinion, these verses do not contradict one another.

Pro_16:6 By mercy and truth INIQUITY is PURGED: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ DEPART FROM INIQUITY.

Psa_4:4 Stand in awe, AND SIN NOT: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah.

1Co_15:34 Awake to righteousness, AND SIN NOT; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, THAT YE SIN NOT. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Why do you think the Holy Spirit breathed these words to us?" END QUOTE

I do not know the intent of this post either. Also, is this another response to me. Brother, please read all my prior posts as it has been VERY clear that I and everyone on this thread CLEARLY believes the scriptures call the saints to holiness and to "SIN NOT." I noticed you have not posted often on this thread and you have not been involved until now, thank you for joining as I assume the Lord is leading you and you desire to encourage us to go on to maturity. Therefore, the question has been asked "how we can live without sin in a sin filled world?"

I was reminded recently of the following verses: "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." Also, another brother quoted from Boehme on "Christians Do Not Quarrel About Religion." This verse and the exhortation from Boehme is actually one of the reasons I do not post very often on SI and I wonder, again, what is the intent of your posts as I am not edified by them. For anyone to believe that a Christian lives in sin, I would question whether they were born again as the scripture clearly teaches that the one who is born again does not practice sin because His seed abides in them. However, and again, we are trying to bring this thread to a practical level and are hoping other saints with more spiritual maturity would post on how they are living a life without sin, are having fellowship with the Father and the Son and being one with them as the Father and the Son are One, being one with one another and laying down our life for one another, loving God and our neighbor as yourself.

Maybe our focus should be on the simplicity which is in Christ Jesus and returning to our first love. Maybe we are missing these simple truths because we are so focused on self and how to live a life above sin. May God the Holy Spirit be our judge and reveal those things which are hidden in our hearts, which must be laid aside and cleansed so we might be well pleasing to Him in all things.

I am getting a little weary of this thread as I am sure many others are as well. I have been alone in a country where I do not speak the language for over one month and I came to the SI forum to hopefully find some fellowship and encouragement from trusted brothers, may God receive the glory in everything we do, say or think.

"1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. 4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaint" (1 Peter 4).

God have mercy on me! And May He break me and bring me to the end of myself. KM

Saints:

From a historical perspective concerning the doctrine of entire sanctification and the holiness movement I found the following book titled: "OBJECTIONS TO ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION By H. A. BALDWIN." Please find the forward below and the link to the book (click on "Full View" to read the book), which is found at the end of the quote.

For me the doctrine and history of the holiness movement has always interested me. Hope some will glean from reading the documented accounts of the body in times past. In Christ's name, K&B

FOREWORD

"Although the following pages are for the most part argumentative, yet the writing has not been done with a view to contention. If no unholy man can see God in peace, the sooner unbelievers are convinced of the error of their unbelief the better it will be for them. We have written to convince. Those who will hew out their own broken cisterns and attempt to fill them with waters suitable to their own carnal likings will still find abundance of room for contention after they have read every argument that follows. This evil cannot be remedied.

But on the contrary some honest souls will be convinced. They are like the merchantman seeking goodly pearls, they will give all they have for the one pearl of great price. Honest heart, do you long for a rest as yet unattained? Do you thirst for a drink from some cooling spring? Then Jesus says:-- “Come unto me and drink,” and, “I will give you rest.” A Sabbath of rest from the sin of your soul, a blessed Sabbath that never will end. “Draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith.”

I have quoted freely from widely different sources always giving due credit in the proper place. With a prayer that God may bless our humble effort to the good of all who read, this little book is sent on its mission. It does not profess to be beyond criticism, it makes no pretensions to literary merit, but the author sincerely desires that before it is lost altogether in the mighty sea of greater things that is flooding the literary world someone may be blest and led to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world" (H. A. B.).

Link to the book: http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008623707