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For those seeking entire sanctification.

S
sermonindex

I have started this thread so that we have a place to concentrate on discussing seeking and not debating whether the second blessing is true or not.

I do agree with Wesley and others including Keswick teaching about this stage. It is when we are delivered from the power of sin and are free to walk without conscious sin.

It happens in an instant when Christ has been revealed to us as Sanctifier and we have consented to having our old man crucified. Well he was crucified with Christ on the cross but we find as our spiritual walk goes on that it is not actually working in us and no will power seems to help.

We can be filled with good intention after a conference or after a good sermon, but come Monday we are back to the grind and the frustration of not being able to `hold` the highs of the weekend.

When we are in His Rest this does not happen - we do hold onto it simply because it is our nature to be so once we have been freed from the chains of the flesh. We can be as busy as anything yet inside we can pray without ceasing and hear Him speak to us no matter what we are doing. We don`t have to settle down and get quiet first.

We can know what it means to have lasting peace and joy and have that assurance in our hearts that He is well pleased with us and that we could enter heaven immediately without having to clean up anything first - that secret sin that we have failed over and over to get under control.

Brothers it is a great thing but the reason we want it must be pure. It is to be for Him. He needs us to be pure so He can safely reveal Himself to us and reveal the secrets of His heart.

So lets pray for one another and seek Him with a passion.

Brenda

O
Oracio

Sister, as I read your post I thought, "this is a description of every single child of God, though some are more sensitive to their sins than others."

I can testify to walking in that state which you mention there, though I would not call it a "second blessing" or "sinless perfection". I would probably call it walking in a state of having no known or willful sins. You experience that when you get born again, when you truly repent of all your sins and trust in Christ. Immediately at true conversion the chains of sin are broken, the heavy burden of sin is lifted and removed, and you are cleansed of every single sin through the blood of His cross. You "enter into His rest" through child-like faith in the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. You begin to experience joy unspeakable and full of glory and a peace that passes understanding which you knew nothing of before you were saved.

Yet the Lord has been faithful to show me areas where I still fall short and need to grow in by His grace and strength. I believe the important thing is that as true believers, we should not lose heart when, after walking in that state of no known sin, the Lord suddenly reveals to us an area that we need to correct through repentance. That is where some may get discouraged and think they may have lost their salvation because they are made aware of some sin they need to repent of. My simple advice there would be, repent of that sin and trust Christ to forgive and cleanse you of it (1John1:9), get back up and continue to pursue holiness through sanctification of the Spirit.

O
Oracio

See, I think a huge problem in these days is that we have lowered the standard of true conversion. We have thought that one can be saved and practice known sin at the same time, living a life of complete defeat when it comes to sin. That is a clever deception of Satan. Though a true believer will not be perfect or sinless, he/she will be sensitive when confronted with any sin in his/her life.

Because of that misunderstanding and watering down of the gospel, there have been drastic effects of it in churches. And some have felt that the solution is to encourage professing Christians to pursue a "deeper" experience where you are are really set free from sin's bondage, when all the while the solution is to be aware of true and false conversion.

S
sermonindex

Brenda as I said on the other thread there is a growth involved. You do not grow instantly into the likeness of Christ. Just as a child must grow into an adult. So one must grow into the likeness of Christ. As one grows more into Christ their hatred of sin and love for holiness will grow.

Bearmaster.

S
sermonindex

With respect brother this thread is not to discuss the truth of the seond blessing - that crisis we come to after we have most certainly come to Christ for forgiveness and have known the honeymoon period but have gone on to sometimes years later we find ourselves unable to be overcomers especially with our besetting sin and all we get from others is that we are not saved after all when we know we are believers.

What it means is that the deniers have not actually reached the stage of conviction by the Holy Spirit over unholy lives and do not know yet that hunger and thirst for righteousness that Kenneth is experiencing praise God. Thanks for your contribution but please use the other thread for your objections.

ps and you too bearmaster thanks.

O
Oracio

Brenda, thanks for the respectful way in which you replied to my posts. I guess I didn't see anything wrong in sharing my views on this topic here since it is a "Scriptures and Doctrine" thread, and I thought we share some similar views on sanctification. But for the moment I feel I've said enough on my part here. Unless anyone wants to inquire further from me on my views I think I will refrain from any further posts on this thread.

Blessings,
Oracio

S
sermonindex

I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death. Wesley

I agree that this revelation given to Wesley is not conversion as some would have it. I also agree that it was a blessing to him. What I cannot comprehend, is in what way this constitutes a second blessing. Or why use that term at all. I have to say that Wesley is describing something here which any believer could comprehend in an instant of time even from the first moment of being saved. I further see that the last comment "saved me from the law of sin and death" carries a further weight of understanding. What is not so clear, is what understanding. Is it the same as saying "the power of sin and death working in my members" or is it an affirmation that even continued sin is "reckoned with?" This seems important if only because it attends to the meaning of holiness. That Wesley comprehended this need before this experience must be so, otherwise he was not saved before hand at all. It is not the need for holiness which makes victory certain but obedience, and yet Wesley acknowledges that before this specific revelation he was variously walking under the Law and under grace. Both with and without success no doubt. I guess anyone who walks under the Law, comprehending that the Law of God is good, righteous and holy will inevitably discover that the flesh can strive to keep the Law of God with varying degrees of success. Any doctrine which supports that view may simply lead to self righteousness and the inevitable stumbling along the way. On the other hand I know many believers, including myself who truly do comprehend the eternal security which Wesley speaks of here, predicated on Christ' sacrifice for sin, yet who do not know what sinless perfection is in experience of their real lives. In short the discovery of this precious truth which Wesley received here if laid hold of fully ought to lead to a basis for trusting and resting in the finished work of the cross.

Terms like sinless perfection, entire sanctification and even "there remains a sabbath rest" have no meaning outside of the revelation itself. When I was first saved I actually thought for a few weeks that I would never sin again. I realise that this was immature, but I have to say that what made me think this way was simply the corresponding light of Christ given and the comprehension that in the presence of Christ it is impossible to desire or else to sin. Given that this presence of the Lord does not remain in this way (your honeymoon) clearly there has to be a crisis of some sort. The desire to be holy is a compulsion when the Lord is comprehended yet when He draws back to teach us how to walk and follow Him, we are become for a while like desperate children seeking for their parents. It is a wretched feeling at best as well as a discouragement if the enemy comes in because we fail to trust the Lord in it. Yet the revelation which Wesley describes remains even in this hour of difficulty. In summary what you have called the second blessing appears to mean the cross.

S
sermonindex

Yes indeed it is the cross. A second visit to it because the first one did not reveal the fullness of what Christ has done for us. I don`t know whether this is due to lack of teaching or whether it is inevitable that we fall from our first love (yes I recall that period when I was not sinning and would have died for Him in a flash at that moment - later on I would have to think about it first). Perhaps we need to sink into the depths of despair first before we are willing to sacrifice the right to ourselves as Oswald Chambers calls it, at a much deepr and basic level, and then He becomes every breath even of our body.

I don`t know why I ever doubted the doctrine of ES myself afer seeing that indeed, when the Lord`s prescence is very powerfully with me, that I can walk without sin (it lasted three weeks at that time) It was impossible for me to sin as all I wanted was to please Him and I would rather have killed myself than hurt Him. It was however, a fortaste of what was to come. It is actually a return of it but much more profound. And you never recover from the wonder of it - that is why folk keep talking about it. It even overshadows conversion.

But then things begin to slip.

I know, the terms second blessing, entering His rest etc have no meaning outside of the revelation and are inadequate to describe it and second blessing is the worst one as we get many blessings. But it is one which people recognise and know what you are talking about.

Wesley does give a good definition actually, that is, being saved from the law of sin and death. When you do come to this crisis event, if you do that is, and it is unbelief that prevents it, you experience this salvation most powerfully. What believers do not understand, is that continuing sin whether deliberate or not, still separate us from God and bring spiritual death, that is to direct union with Him the sort of union that we felt right at the start.

We need to stop sinning so that we can be released from this law, long term (it can be reversed however). This is what happens when we have a second return of Christ revealing to us the full extent of the salvation He has gained for us and which probably we were too imature to conprehend.

This is one clue that tells me that Wesley was talking about this, and this was what had been missing for him previously. He had started reading holiness teaching, and when he came across the witness of the Moravians on the boat, he saw his lack as they remained without sin whereas he was afraid. If he was not a believer at that time he would not have been aware even that it was sinful to be afraid.

He says he was walking under law and grace, but an unsaved man cannot walk under grace at all. And in this early stage of a Christian walk, there is a lack of consistency in religious discipline and worship. It is up and down.

No doubt there are times for us all when there is a little oasis and a blessing here and there but it is when the power of sin has been broken, the power that breaks those things that we glibly call `our temperament` `our weakness` `our unfortunate experiences` which are merely an excuse for the sins we feel powerless over, that we understand what breaking the chains really means deeply and profoundly.

Of course we are grateful and ecstatic when we are first converted and are freed from gross sins of the flesh, but it is when we find things inside that we have no power over and which we fail repeatedly to stop like a temper for example that we really cry out in despair. It is when we are right back at the start of when we first knew Him that we are fee indeed.

blessings
Brenda

M
murrcolr

Brenda

I am ready, I am aware of my condition, I have studied the scriptures and have read many books and testimonies and believe that God does do a deeper work in the believer after conversion that.

Over the last few months I have been urged to start surrendering my life, which I have started practising as I am aware God will want nothing less than a full surrender of myself to him and his will by faith...

Even last week I was thinking that I need to start seeking earnestly and thinking about the way I should go about seeking.

I was a bit reluctant to write on here but I decided to yield and humble myself.

Edit posted by mistake before I was ready to post..

S
sermonindex

Dear Colin

It thrills my heart to hear those words.

The general advice is to be obedient up to light given, and some advise fasting. I would also add to this that many in charismatic circles who are seeking, have been exposed to an experience which is not Spirit Baptism and it is my light that this is interfering with the fulfillment of their desire for heart purity. Because of the deception involved, there is a problem with discernment and speaking in a language that is not understood, and which is notunder the control of the speaker, could be used by the enemy to stop the blessing. Yes I know that this idea is unacceptable to many, but I plead that there is nothing to lose by testing the spirits and ceasing tongue speaking to do so. As we are told to test the spirits (for good reason), there is no disobedience involved. I am not speaking against tongues generally, merely saying that this area is one which can be used by the enemy. I know a number of very urgent and sincere seekers who speak in tongues and nothing us happening for them, year in year out. There is a reason for this.

I am praying for you.

Brenda

M
murrcolr

Brenda –

I am planning to fast. I don’t attend church and the only contact I have with Christians is on sermon index so no influences there..

I’m not opposed to talking in tongues , before I started attending a church building or was in contact with other Christians, God did something powerful in my live when I said a simple prayer, God I am fed up being this way change me.. As I lay down on my bed a wind left my body, then a wind start to blow back into me, once it stopped I sat up and spoke a new language was, once I stopped speaking I ask the question what was that and the answer that came to my mind was tongues.

My life has not been the same since that day.

Also to give you some back ground on the day that I decided to stop attending the church because of what I saw, God gave me a word, “You’ll be like Job” not what I wanted to hear but that’s what was said..

A few years later on a rig off West Africa with blisters appearing on my body, I remembered the word from heaven “You’ll be like Job”. So I decided to Fast and Pray, afterwards was when God broke through and made me aware of the sin that remained in me and through both Duncan Campbell’s testimony and Patricia Knoles book he made me aware of that he can set me from the sin that remains…

Since them my seeking has been more of a scriptures, testimonies and books rather than seeking the blessing itself…

A
a-servant

Before we ask for a blessing - the basic question we have to ask ourselves is: Are we tired of all of our sins yet?

Or are we still comparing ourselves to others and conclude that we're not as bad as "that other guy?" - That would be a case of ignoring that it's still God that sets the standard of holiness. Let me quote someone on this:

Quote by Jeri Woods: "The church has LOST how to awaken sinner to their sin. we have no preachers who can 'awake people to their sin' from Gods point of view. Our preacher won't allow a sinner to feel the guilt of his sin for even a millisecond. The attitude is 'why should they feel guilty when they will just be forgiven anyway. Or they erroneously think the sinner feel guilty enough about their sin so I don't need to heap it on anymore. Theses both are false perceptions. A sinner mainly thinks their sin is not that egregious and that they are not as bad as that other person-alway pointing the finger at the person who has done worse. The church is suppose 'stop' the sinner in their tracks and get them to stop comparing themselves to others and get them to compare themselves to the law of God."

That's the exact reason why the law of God isn't preached anymore. We do not believe anymore that God has set a standard, so we develop our own. Our standard is now 'self'. And that's why the sin question is always viewed from that point of view we personally allow ourselves at the time, based on the current acknowledgment of our own sins. Think about how ridiculous that point of view really is, it's impossible to move from there.

Neither do we call a specific sin a sin anymore and allow ourselves to "feel the guilt of this sin for even a millisecond" - we might see a few doctrinal points differently than Jeri Woods but that downloadable book made me sick about my own sins:

Kingdom Transfer
http://www.holylivingnow.com/resources

we might not even realize what our sins are - it's not just the obvious things


J
JoshG

For anyone interested in audio sermons on the topic of entire sanctification, second blessing, spirit filled, etc. try listening to James A Stewart, Duncan Campbell, Ernest O'Neill, Bill McLeod, Duncan Campbell, Zac Poonen, Alan Redpath, Hans R. Waldvogel, and Paris Reidhead on Sermonindex...

C
Christinyou

What we need is to be delivered unto the Gospel that Paul was chosen by Jesus Christ to give to usward, Paul calls it the mystery given to him for, "youward".

Paul I the only man in the bible that Jesus Christ gave this gospel to, that is the mystery, "Christ in you". Paul is the only man that Jesus gave the working of the human being when it comes the living in Christ by the Christ living in us.

This is a little long but it gives the most complete character of Christ in the believer and how it pertains to salvation, wisdom, sanctification, righteousness and justification for the believer.

http://christ-life.org/gospelofdeliverance_files/myjukebox.html

Let me know what you think. To me it gives the closest understanding of how the human being operates under Gods plan chosen for us to be in Christ before the foundation of the world and why the Lamb had to be slain for that time also and those that would be in this plan of redemption of God's creation.

In Christ: Phillip

D
davidc

Beloved brother Phillip

Thank you for this link. I've listened to the firsy two messages and love his simplicity in expounding the scriptures. It has encouraged me in my walk in Christ. I Especially like what he says in the first CD about us being created to receive perfectly Christ's life; and in the second CD, about us being God's offspring and that He as our Father takes full responsibility for us.

It's all His Grace. Looking forward to the last two CDs tomorrow night.

In Him

David

C
Christinyou

David, I have been under this man's teaching, Warren Litzman, for almost 10 years and I still marvel when I hear these massages, over and over, it gives me solace and peace to rest in the complete sanctification of the only One that is, Jesus Christ, and He by the Father's Word is birthed in me.

It takes a work of the Holy Spirit to come to these truths'. I am blessed that you are blessed and may the Holy Spirit fill you with all the wisdom that is in Christ Jesus our life.

As Warren always says', "I see Jesus in you, because I see Jesus in me.

In Christ, your brother through our Brother and offspring of our Father:

Phillip

J
JoshG

Youtube: Ernest O'Neill

His main focus was the doctrine of Entire Sanctification and seeing people come into the experience of it.

A
a-servant

“This brings us to the one per-
son whom God could trust with
the knowledge of the mystery—the
Apostle Paul. As God plans things,
it is logical to assume that He
planned Paul’s life from its begin-
ning. He planned the development
of a person who could explain the
mystery. In time, he would be able
to carry out the duties of one who
was to be an Apostle to the Gentiles,
who were to be the people of the
“new creation race,” reborn by the
placing of another ‘Christ’ within
them.” (Warren Litzman, Messages
for the New Creation Race People, p. 9).


.... reborn by the placing of another ‘Christ’ within them.

another Christ? - "by the placing of"?

Then again, makes sense from his point of view, he is following "another Paul", not Jesus Christ.

He splits his understanding of Paul from the whole of the Bible and calls the result of what he teaches "the final gospel"

Quote: " Since no one in the Old Testament knew this final gospel and since Jesus of Nazareth did not teach this gospel (He taught Moses law) and since no other disciple or Apostle preached this message, it is well that Paul called it his gospel." by Warren Litzman - Why follow Paul?


In contrast here the real Paul: 1 Corinthians 3:4  For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

What I find more troubling however is this statement: "Jesus of Nazareth did not teach this gospel"


Mystery religions always want to touch the glory of Messiah, without meeting his conditions. Just focus on the mystery, they say, that's were the secret is hidden and don't worry about any foundations. What are Bible foundations good for anyway?

According to The Final Gospel by Warren Litzman: "Prophecy occupies at least 4/5 of the Bible and is based on law and legalism". So for him the greatest part of the Bible is law and legalism, and one has to study antinomians for a while to detect them, because only they come up with distortions like that. But not as extreme as him. So what is he actually calling the author of inspiration of the Bible then?

S
sermonindex

"Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!"

Psalm 107:8

C
Christinyou

Quote: """.... reborn by the placing of another ‘Christ’ within them.

another Christ? - "by the placing of"?"""

This is taking out of context of what Warren is saying, he is not saying "another Christ" but, placing of another in the believer which is Christ. The "another", is Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God, in the believer, this is being born again by the incorruptible Seed of the Father.

A-servant, have you ever spoken to Mr. Litzman? You need to speak to him about your erroneous claims. He will be glad to speak to your misunderstandings of what he teaches.

This is where he is coming form; Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (Paul speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit)

Colossians 1:23-29 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. (Paul speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit)

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Paul speaking by the power of the Holy Spirit)

In Christ: (By the Seed of the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit)

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

As to the Law; Romans 10:3-4 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Phillip

S
sermonindex

deleted due to post being responded to by email

C
Christinyou

There is only One in whom sanctification is made; 1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus , who of God is made unto us wisdom , and righteousness , and sanctification , and redemption :

"made" Strong's Greek Dictionary
1096. ginomai
Search for G1096 in KJVSL
ginomai ginomai ghin'-om-ahee
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"-erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):--arise, be assembled, be(-come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.

Jesus Christ and He alone is our sanctification; not by what I do or don't do, but by God, He has made Jesus Christ our only way of wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.

Jesus is the only way, He that is born again in us, making us a new creation race of God's offspring, "the son's of God", sanctified in Him and He in us, the only One that keeps us fully sanctified.

1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of (((him))) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Who is "him"? The One and only God the Father. Who has "him" placed us in Christ? being made unto us, our, sanctification and all else pertaining to the Kingdom of God. In Him, Total and complete, no parts and peaces, kept completely and none lost.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In Christ: Phillip

In Him: Phillip

S
sermonindex

Brother

I have listened to the cd`s, and felt that I could listen to the speaker forever. I agree that Paul was given a special revelation of sanctification. The brother has much in depth understanding of scripture. However, I cannot agree with his premis, that, all we require to be complete, is to see that Christ is within us. As we see in the OT, God cannot dwell where there is sin and His plan is to remove it from us, not by imputation but through impartation of His righteousness.

His life cannot be imparted unless the old nature is destroyed and this does not happen when we first come to Christ because we need to learn just how useless the flesh is, the flesh that is neutral that is, the flesh that desires to serve God but must learn that all impulse and life must eminate from Christ within us with nothing coming from our human impulses and instincts.

Death is required in us and through our consent to it by reckoning ourselves crucified in this way and only then can Christ come to dwell with in us.This is entire sanctification and the witness is a pure heart and Christ within. The reason why many believers do not feel that Christ is within is simply because He isn`t. If He is there, we don`t need a preacher to convince us of it. It`s as plain as the air we breathe.

A
a-servant

Phillip, I have read a few of Litzmans' online magazines yesterday, and then a 6 year old thread here were you promoted him. The only person with enough discernment that really tried to warn you was Rookie (Jeff) and you resisted the truth, because Rookie taught the gospel and faith, and you taught Litzman. That's why you never agreed with each other.

And that man speaks a lot about "birthing" in his publications and the mystery that only Paul proclaimed. What would be appreciated if we knew he had the correct Jesus. But his own words deny him:

"Jesus of Nazareth did not teach this gospel (He taught Moses law)"

what is just plain nonsense, because then Litzman also does not have:

John 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

He then does not want anything what Jesus said brought to his remembrance, he is only interested in the "christ seed birthing" as a separate item that can be placed within. The "distilled christ seed formula" applied to unregenerated people. Nothing about following Jesus Christ.

And he has also no idea about the law of God, even though Paul indirectly thaught it a lot in strongest terms. 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Ephesians 5:5 for example - if you can name the laws that are broken, and list them one by one, then you understand that these are in fact active and intact to judge those that break them. That's a good exercise to come out of this dillusional lawless grace that brings the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Paul speaks a lot of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and he also calls that gospel 'my gospel'. Litzman teaches that there are 2 entirely different gospels, and only "Paul's my gospel" is the one for us now and our only savior Jesus Christ only taught Moses law. So that's why he is only interested in the redefined 'seed birthing' not the person, and not his law, that makes that person undesirable to him.

The basic misunderstanding of antinomians is between the “Law of Sin and death” vs. the “Law of God” and the resulting mistakes are multiple ones, usually articulated as "everything has been nailed to the cross" - one clearly hasn't, otherwise there would be NO grounds to judge the people in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Ephesians 5:5 - yet Paul calls every law he mentiones simply 'law'. You have to closely study the context, or you would be really wiser to teach nothing at all. And that's the ditch God will let antinomians fall if they wrest Paul teachings:

2 Peter 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Some people simply find God's demands unreasonable, not to be recognized and believed to be valid because these would expose their sins, and that's what this whole "law nailed to the cross" business is about:

"It is TRULY as Jesus said: John 5:46-47 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Do the New Testament Holy Ghost preachers really understand what Jesus taught if they do NOT believe the words of Moses? According to what Jesus said in John 5:46-47 the answer would be NO."

And all this in a thread about "entire sancification" - well, what does it really mean for anyone that doesnt want to recognize their sins? Someone that wants to deny that there is a holy standard according to that everyone will be judged? That would mean you want the end result, for yourself, apart from God, without the necessary walk of the cross. What you need is the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. And grace found in repentance.

S
sermonindex

It never ceases to surprise me just how much we wrestle over this issue of Christ within and thereafter following Him. The idea that it is one or the other is so misleading. It is similarly so dangerous to a real sanctified life to present the idea that God does not dwell with a believer because they have sin in their lives. If one is born again then Christ is in you and there is no removing Him, any more than rejecting your own mother and father would negate the fact that you are their offspring.

Paul certainly did bring an understanding of the grace of God which for all others prior to him was a difficult thing to realise in the immediacy of the Lord' ascension into heaven. Yet it does not represent another gospel either. Peter recognised it as sound and comprehended that it was "some things difficult to understand" yet went on to warn that Paul was being used to write scripture as well. Peter clearly knew what Paul was teaching and writing, and did not reject it.

One would have to ask whether Peter Himself actually believed that it was necessary to keep the law unto righteousness. He most assuredly did not. What Peter was concerned with beyond the Christ of Israel was the issue of finding an easy entrance into the kingdom of God. If this means being born again then we may as well all give up right now because none of us will make it at all. Any one who thinks otherwise is become vain.

It is necessary to both know Christ by faith and experience Christ by walking. Both depend on a new life in Christ and by the Holy Spirit Christ in us. It is never one nor the other. It is the same thing in truth, it is always Christ Himself.

M
mossman

I think a second work of Grace is a better name. But anyway I thought I would say something on this trend, because I think a lot of people thinks we grow into sanctification. Acts 26:18 Jesus tells Paul that people are sanctified by faith. Anything by faith is instant. When we are Justified by Faith it is instant. What I believe is we grow IN sanctified not growing TO. Look at it this way. When we get Justified, your like a tree that got cut down. But you still got roots. Sanctification is dealing with the roots. I hope this help. God bless everyone.

C
Christinyou

Quote: """
Phillip, I have read a few of Litzmans' online magazines yesterday, and then a 6 year old thread here were you promoted him. The only person with enough discernment that really tried to warn you was Rookie (Jeff) and you resisted the truth, because Rookie taught the gospel and faith, and you taught Litzman. That's why you never agreed with each other.

And that man speaks a lot about "birthing" in his publications and the mystery that only Paul proclaimed. What would be appreciated if we knew he had the correct Jesus. But his own words deny him:"""

As I said before, you need to speak to Mr. Litzman, because I am not here to defend his doctrine, that can only come from him. I have come to the truth of the scriptures when it considers all that Paul teaches, which is to this day a stumbling block for many.

When I first heard the words birthing or birthed, I also was skeptical of what Mr. Litzman was saying. But the more I studied to try to prove him wrong the more the Holy Spirit confirmed the born again experience in me. I have come to the truth of Paul and speak of nothing except Christ and Him crucified. The specific change in me being "Christ in you the hope of glory" and being crucified with Christ and coming to new life by He that is birthed in me, by the Father and His incorruptible Seed that defines who I am, A Christ Person, a new creature, never before the Cross revealed, but kept secret from all until God was ready to reveal Christ in me, and to all that receive Him.

Forgive me for using Mr. Litzman as a text of any kind, I am sure he is and would be very upset with me for not allowing him to be present in his own defense before using his teaching. I came under his teaching to prove him wrong and the Holy Spirit proved him right in my spirit and by revelation of the truth and study of the Word of God, not the word of Litzman.

May we all come to the truth and freedom in Christ, which by Him we are free indeed and need no proof, except by the Spirit of Christ that is in us. This by His faith that is proof enough of my faith.

Is this the Word of God? Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I don't believe Christ is dead in vain, but that He lives in me, making me a son of God by the Son in me, not frustrating the Grace of God.

Ephesians 2:7-10 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

If I am using the Word of God wrongly, please show me, that I might repent and beg forgiveness of God and all who read anything I write on this forum.

Ephesians 1:1-5 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

To me also, I pray in Christ:

Phillip

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sermonindex

you said

"His life cannot be imparted unless the old nature is destroyed and this does not happen when we first come to Christ because we need to learn just how useless the flesh is, the flesh that is neutral that is, the flesh that desires to serve God but must learn that all impulse and life must eminate from Christ within us with nothing coming from our human impulses and instincts."

How can it be possible to be a Christain and not have Christ's Life imparted?

True Christianity is having Christ's life and embracing it.

S
sermonindex

It never ceases to surprise me just how much we wrestle over this issue of Christ within and thereafter following Him. The idea that it is one or the other is so misleading. It is similarly so dangerous to a real sanctified life to present the idea that God does not dwell with a believer because they have sin in their lives. If one is born again then Christ is in you and there is no removing Him, any more than rejecting your own mother and father would negate the fact that you are their offspring.

**********************************************************

How can it be possible to be a Christain and not have Christ's Life imparted?

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Indeed if one is born again and a true Christian, then Christ dwells within and His life is imparted.

We read in John 6:56 that :

"He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood dwelleth in me and me in him".

Christ is talking about sharing in His crucifixion, where his flesh was broken and His blood poured out.

Man always imagines himself at a higher stage spiritually than he really is and many come to Christ to have their sins forgiven and think they have been crucified, but they have not taken part in the transaction by renouncing sin in totality, so they are believers but not yet Christians. If we are dead to sin then it has no part in us.

S
sermonindex

Brenda you and others who embrace sinless perfection assume one enters into a Zen Buddhist state and sin has no impact on them. Any believer in Christ who is walking in sobmission to his Spirit is "daily" putting to death the misdeeds of the body. Otherwise what did Jesus mean when he said if anyone wishes to cone after me he must deny himself and take up his cross "daily" and follow me? Also what did Paul mean when he said I die "daily"?

I emphasize "daily" because this is not a one time act when you reckon you are dead to sin and enter nirvana and there is no struggle to resist sin.

Sister the emphasis to practical holiness in the New Testament is a "daily" putting on the Lord Jesus Christ and not thinking about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature. This is the testimony of myself and anyone else in tbis forum who are pursuing a holy walk with Jesus. This is the holy war the believer in Jexus Christ is engaged in.

Brenda I notice you and others who hold to sinless perfection will not admit to falling into sin. You sidestep or evade the question. To admit to sin would be s failure in your theology. I also notice that the sinless perfection folks will do everything possible to explain away 1 John 1:7-9 which deals with the provision for cleansing when a believer falls into sin.

I mention the above because for the rest of us who pursue Christ in the putting off if sin and putting on Jesus we will fall into sin. This is a holy struggle and there will be times I fall. I admit I sin. Is this my desire. No. But the reality of my or any believer's struggle with sin is there will be times even we fall. But the marvelous provision of God on forgiveness and cleansing in 1 John 1:9.

The common theme between the byoergrace and sinless perfection theokgies is they deny the reality of the believer,s war with sin. These theologies impy one is in nirvana with no impact of sin in their lives. Sister these theologies do not line up with the teachibg or experience with New Testament believers.

Anyone who says they have an experience of walking in a world filled with sin and this sin has no impact on them. I would say they are not walking in reality.

Bearmaster.


C
Christinyou

The first sin I have any recollection of is when I was 4 years old. From that day forward I knew what sin was, and to this day I still know what sin is, within this time, from 4-73, I have guilt, sometimes wishing I could die, but have not been able to resist to the shedding of blood, only His counts in cleansing me that I might live because I sinned and still sin. Maybe I don't sin as much or as serious as I used to, but sin is still in me.

Praise God Jesus took all this sin blotted it out by His Blood and nailing it all to the Cross, for everyone that believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and what He did, He did for the whole world, If we believe what He did.
If the whole world believed That Jesus Christ is the Son of God, all would be saved and going to be in the Father's house in the resurrection. Convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit and righteousness in Christ and judgment.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Do we believe this? If we believe this, are our sins, past, present and future blotted out?

1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If this is true, why did God give us; 1 John 1:7-10 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Either Jesus Christ takes away all sin, past, present and future, or He does not.

Who forgives our sins, and is faithful to do so? What is the mechanism that takes away sin and cleanses us from all unrighteousness? The faithfulness of God in Christ Jesus and our participation in agreeing with God and confessing our sin.

I have hated sin for a long time, hating myself because I could not be perfect, always shedding tears when seeing others overcome adversity or calamity in war or in society. I want so bad to be a good soldier for God and yet I fall so short. Praise God through Christ Jesus I am to my Father perfect because of the Christ in me.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is my works, by His works that work in me mightily.
This is how I show my faith and ongoing sanctification. He keeps working, I keep laboring in His Works.

In Christ: Phillip

F
Firetime

You talk a lot of sense bearmaster.
If only more people would teach this, we would avoid the extremes of dry legalism on one hand and emergent saddleback permissiveness on the other...and the type of gospel that says, evetually, well we cant possibly BEAT sin, so lets quit trying, and embrace and celebrate it instead...
When I read about Elijah, when he said "take my life Lord, I am no better than my ancestors" I think that was when the penny dropped so to speak, he finally discerned his adamic origins-and realised he could do nothing about it. Maybe he himself had previously been subject to a sinless perfection delusion, like what the pharisees generally displayed when they faced Jesus, we fast, we tithe, our father is Abraham etc etc?

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

"If you then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall you also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience: In the which you also walked some time, when you lived in them. But now you also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long-suffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do you. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfection. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also you are called in one body; and be you thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

"Have mercy on me, O God, according to your loving kindness: according to the multitude of your tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned, and done this evil in your sight: that you might be justified when you speak, and be clear when you judge. Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, you desire truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part you shall make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which you have broken may rejoice. Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from your presence; and take not your holy spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation; and uphold me with your free spirit"

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sermonindex

The first sin I have any recollection of is when I was 4 years old.

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That is very interesting, you remembering, as they have tested children aged 3 years and 4 years, leaving them alone in a room with candies/sweets on a table in front of them and told not to eat any. The children all took one or more. When they returned and asked if any candies had been eaten, the 3 year olds told the truth but the 4 year olds, lied.

bearmaster

I asked specifically at the start of this thread, that those who oppose the doctrine of entire sanctification, do not join the discussion as there is another thread dealing with defending the doctrine. Please repost there and I will answer you. Thank you.

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sermonindex

Man always imagines himself at a higher stage spiritually than he really is and many come to Christ to have their sins forgiven and think they have been crucified, but they have not taken part in the transaction by renouncing sin in totality, so they are believers but not yet Christians. If we are dead to sin then it has no part in us. Krautfrau

I suppose that if we get to estimating our spiritual condition as somehow a thing of stages we will indeed stumble because the very idea itself defeats the reality which Christ has intended for us. No doubt sanctification at a personal level can be gained or lost just as the natural man gains or loses his ability [willingness] to walk in dependance on the Spirit working in us. For all that, anyone who believes could be in an instant transformed in their thinking and with or without comprehending it, walk in a manner pleasing to God. The very least of the brethren could become an example of Christ likeness and we would in comprehending that realise that the same possibility is set before each one of us.

If we were to formalise an understanding of this then it would of necessity be established on a reality which is Christ Himself crucified for sin. As it is written “because One died for all, all have died”. How this is possible is a mystery and yet it is at hand for all who have believed because the life which we received by faith in Christ is a crucified life hidden in Christ…...It is the risen Lord. In short, success or failure in our walk will always hinge on knowing Christ Himself as the Risen Lord. Yet the basis of resurrection is itself death of the cross. The more we desire to truly know Christ, beyond believing into Him, the more we will see the victory which is itself hidden, because it has not yet been revealed. Until Christ is revealed it will remain hidden. No one who is born again can truly love sin as a way of life. Though doctrines of demons and a seared conscience make for a sinful and fleshy walk, obvious and open sin cannot ever be acceptable. If it were not for the fact that we are able to confess our sins daily, we would be the most miserable of all people. Yet this confessing our daily sins is a childish thing, even though it is precious, because it is simply the beginning of the growth which we must all attain to and yet which we cannot and must not fabricate. It has to be real to be of any usefulness to the Father. It cannot and must not be forced. It must be Christ in us the hope of glory.

I don’t know if this is the intention or the effect in this post. But there is a move happening right now which asserts that a person is not a true believer unless they have the full evidence of a righteous life. Well if that is true who among us is not yet perishing? It is a blasphemy against the truth of the finished work of Christ because it is placing more benefit on works, than it is on comprehending faith and its effect unto regeneration. I think there is coming a stand any time soon in which the outcome will be rejection of many by a self righteous few. Praise God for that. I would rather be completely hated and rejected than walk with a self righteous man. And whilst I cannot reject him, his rejection of me would be a blessing and a release from responsibility towards him. When that time comes those who are yet fleshy may well learn to walk in the Spirit and in that please God. And it will come.

P
proudpapa

The Sunday school announcement today was on this topic, It was Oswald Chambers “white funeral”:

"We were buried with Him . . . that just as Christ was raised from the dead . . . even so we also should walk in newness of life —Romans 6:4

No one experiences complete sanctification without going through a “white funeral”-the burial of the old life. If there has never been this crucial moment of change through death, sanctification will never be more than an elusive dream. There must be a “white funeral,” a death with only one resurrection-a resurrection into the life of Jesus Christ. Nothing can defeat a life like this. It has oneness with God for only one purpose— to be a witness for Him.

Have you really come to your last days? You have often come to them in your mind, but have you really experienced them? You cannot die or go to your funeral in a mood of excitement. Death means you stop being. You must agree with God and stop being the intensely striving kind of Christian you have been. We avoid the cemetery and continually refuse our own death. It will not happen by striving, but by yielding to death. It is dying— being “baptized into His death” (Romans 6:3).

Have you had your “white funeral,” or are you piously deceiving your own soul? Has there been a point in your life which you now mark as your last day? Is there a place in your life to which you go back in memory with humility and overwhelming gratitude, so that you can honestly proclaim, “Yes, it was then, at my ’white funeral,’ that I made an agreement with God.”

“This is the will of God, your sanctification . . .” (1 Thessalonians 4:3). Once you truly realize this is God’s will, you will enter into the process of sanctification as a natural response. Are you willing to experience that “white funeral” now? Will you agree with Him that this is your last day on earth? The moment of agreement depends on you."

C
Christinyou

by krautfrau on 2013/5/23 22:18:07
"""However, I cannot agree with his premis, that, all we require to be complete, is to see that Christ is within us.

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

If we don't believe in Christ, there is nothing for all who don't believe. Not believing, "repent and believe" this is our repentance, to believe in Christ.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

There is only One who makes us whole; Jesus Christ, and all that takes is to believe that He is the literal biological Son of God born of a woman, "Mary".

"Thy faith," believing or faithing has made you whole, and even to the raising of the dead.

Mark 5:34-36 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague. While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further? As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

Why was she healed? Why was her daughter raised from the dead? She became whole, (complete) in believing and receiving Jesus at least by the works He did. Who gave her the faith to make her whole? By His works.
By whose Faith that is now come after the Cross, when we believe, it makes us whole by His Faith that has come, now we are complete and are a new creation.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

How? John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What do we receive that makes us complete? John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

What sin do we need to repent of? John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

By the faith of Christ, by the Holy Spirit and by the Spirit in us we are now partially complete, fully in Spirit by the Spirit of Christ in us, becoming complete in soul/mind By the Holy Spirit (Parakleet), teacher of who He is that is born again in us. Will be complete when we receive on resurrection day the same complete spiritual body that Jesus Christ has and is.

We are His by His Spirit that is in us.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Are we complete in Spirit? Completely by His Spirit that is in us.

Are we becoming complete by the Mind of Christ that is in us? Becoming complete by the Holy Spirit in us.

Will we be complete in body? Yes.

Completeness is relative to where we stand in Christ and He alone is our new creature life.

IN Christ:Phillip

And new Life of Christ in us, by His Faith and His Spirit in us.

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sermonindex

Although we are complete when we are in Him and He in us, there is no way we can just believe it is so unless we have made a holy transaction with God by sacrificing ourselves and as Oswald Chambers wrote, attended our white funeral.

If we are dead in Christ then we are overcomers and sin has no place in us.

Many chant words they read in the scriptures that have no bearing on them. Believing something is so when it is not is a lie and the truth is not in us.

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sermonindex

amrkelly wrote :

I don’t know if this is the intention or the effect in this post. But there is a move happening right now which asserts that a person is not a true believer unless they have the full evidence of a righteous life. Well if that is true who among us is not yet perishing? It is a blasphemy against the truth of the finished work of Christ because it is placing more benefit on works, than it is on comprehending faith and its effect unto regeneration. I think there is coming a stand any time soon in which the outcome will be rejection of many by a self righteous few. Praise God for that. I would rather be completely hated and rejected than walk with a self righteous man. And whilst I cannot reject him, his rejection of me would be a blessing and a release from responsibility towards him. When that time comes those who are yet fleshy may well learn to walk in the Spirit and in that please God. And it will come.

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It is rather a blasphemy to say that the power of God cannot deliver us from sin in this life. We were created to be sinless, in this life not the next. Christ died to return us to that position, now not in the future. Those who claim He has delivered them do so by faith and not works and know it is His righteousness alone that enables them to stand.


E
Elibeth


As I do not know how to copy / or bring something over to this post,
that was written on another post on this IPad,...."General Topics" "I have found the Key",
and I feel this post,has some of the same type subject,....maybe you could please look back at that ?

Lovingly,
elizabeth


"

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sermonindex

It is rather a blasphemy to say that the power of God cannot deliver us from sin in this life. We were created to be sinless, in this life not the next. Christ died to return us to that position, now not in the future. Those who claim He has delivered them do so by faith and not works and know it is His righteousness alone that enables them to stand. krautfrau

Yes I agree Brenda it would be a blasphemy to say that the power of God cannot deliver us from sin [even] in this life. Sometimes when I think about that possibility it seems hopeless and at other times the Spirit makes it a wonderful truth and in that is hope and in hope there is momentary longing. Then I find myself asking whether I am minded to pay the price for the fullness of it. I have to say that in myself despite the grace of God I am not willing. In the spirit I truly desire it. It is just one hope and it is balanced by the knowledge that unless the Lord Himself is the evidence of it, it will be just a man and nothing more. Then I fall back and remember that Christ is in us both to will and to work according to His good please. After that there is nothing left to do than to confess my sins and press on.

When I read your post earlier I should have obeyed the leading of the Spirit and made the connection visible which was expressed before time, to the thread which Elizabeth has referred to. Here is the link which Elizabeth has made in obedience.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=49451&forum=35&9

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rbanks

I have to say that in myself despite the grace of God I am not willing.
Quote

It is the grace of God that gives us the desire for it and it is the grace of God that brings us to entire sanctification.

Entire sanctification is impossible without the grace of God revealing to us the finished work on the cross and our experiencing the revelation of our crucifixion in Christ upon the cross. They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.


Blessings....from brother rbanks

Z
ZekeO

Entire sanctification is impossible without the grace of God revealing to us the finished work on the cross and our experiencing the revelation of our crucifixion in Christ upon the cross. They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts.
.Rbanks
Is this not the hope we have in Christ Jesus. If you read Pauls prayers in Epistles its revealing as to what he prayed to God for these people:

Ephesians 1:15-23

15 For this reason, mbecause I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love6 toward all the saints, 16 I ndo not cease to give thanks for you, oremembering you in my prayers, 17 that pthe God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, qmay give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 rhaving the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is sthe hope to which he has called you, what are tthe riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, uaccording to the working of vhis great might 20 that he worked in Christ wwhen he raised him from the dead and xseated him at his right hand yin the heavenly places, 21 zfar above aall rule and authority and power and dominion, and above bevery name that is named, not only in cthis age but also in the one to come. 22 And dhe put all things under his feet and gave him as ehead over all things to the church, 23 fwhich is his body, gthe fullness of him hwho fills iall in all. ESV

Ephesians 3:14-21

14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom wevery family3 in heaven and on earth is named, 16 that according to xthe riches of his glory yhe may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit zin your inner being, 17 aso that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being brooted and cgrounded in love, 18 may have strength to dcomprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and eheight and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ fthat surpasses knowledge, that gyou may be filled with all hthe fullness of God.

20 iNow to jhim who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, kaccording to the power at work within us, 21 lto him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. ESV

There are many more but his prayers are centred around these two things, knowing Jesus more and more and knowing what he has done more and more.

Its like paul new the key to effectual and effective followers in Christ was not on trying to be holy or spiritual but knowing Jesus and who we are in him. From that growing revelation we go from one degree of glory to another.

S
sermonindex

Dear Brother

(amrkelly wrote) Then I find myself asking whether I am minded to pay the price for the fullness of it. I have to say that in myself despite the grace of God I am not willing.

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As the Lord gives us both to will and to work, I encourage you to ask the Lord to fulfill His promise and make you willing.

It is the way I received the blessing as I was unwilling too. His ways are perfect.

Thank you Elizabeth.

Brenda

S
sermonindex

(amrkelly wrote) Then I find myself asking whether I am minded to pay the price for the fullness of it. I have to say that in myself despite the grace of God I am not willing.

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As the Lord gives us both to will and to work, I encourage you to ask the Lord to fulfill His promise and make you willing.

It is the way I received the blessing as I was unwilling too. His ways are perfect.

I have to tell you sister that I ask the Lord to keep me from such foolishness; that I should in my own flesh become willing to do anything which would serve to stir me up to good words, including a natural understanding of the holiness which of necessity precedes good works. The natural man will never truly give up anything save for vain reasons. Some brethren say that this idea alludes to irredeemable flesh, it is the old man and the only remedy is the cross. The hope which I referred to in my last post is one born out of the leading and revelation of the Holy Spirit, it is the very thing which Wesley experienced (see the original comments) and which gave rise to a full conviction of what sanctification means in Christ. It is the cross. Read the comments again. I have not changed my mind nor have I shared this latter thing simply to present myself to a falsehood.

True sanctification is in Christ alone. As far as we are concerned our sanctification is Christ Himself. 1 Corinthians 1:30. This is what I believe. The fact that I am willing in obedience, in the spirit, does not change the reality that I perceive and agree that the heart is utterly wicked and deceitful. Presented with no choice, the heart will fain every outward measure of righteousness and this will lead to self righteousness and the harm of others. I know it. I have witnessed it time and again. I have resisted it in my self and repented of it. May the Lord never permit me to go that way of self effort even when it is predicated on a true revelation of Christ crucified for sin; being set apart through death in Him. May it always be, not I but Christ. For those who have truly entered into this rest they are the most blessed and those who have all knowledge yet have not entered into His rest are the most to be feared. If I ever get to thinking that I am become willing in myself to pay the price, I am already lost to the meaning of true sanctification and holiness. Hence why I said "I am unwilling". My natural mind simple agrees with the witness of God. Otherwise comprehending these things in the spirit would not be a true comprehension at all. It would be a vanity of the imagination.

For those who want to be mystical about this it is really simple. Do that which you know you ought to do. If we simply did that, the struggle would become so great that we would discover the reality of what rest means because it is the opposite of labour. Good works ought to be a daily reality. Give to the poor, bless those who are the least able to help themselves and so on. Nothing to boast in, no reward, nothing more than that which is already given. It is what we ought to do. Sanctification and sanctifying our own bodies has to do with service to God and not men. It is true worship and is a separate matter to the business of serving others. It is the bride making herself ready. Dressing and taking delight in the Groom who comes for her.

R
rbanks

True sanctification is in Christ alone. As far as we are concerned our sanctification is Christ Himself. 1 Corinthians 1:30. This is what I believe. The fact that I am willing in obedience, in the spirit, does not change the reality that I perceive and agree that the heart is utterly wicked and deceitful. Presented with no choice, the heart will fain every outward measure of righteousness and this will lead to self righteousness and the harm of others.
Quote -Andrew


Amen brother Andrew!

Romans 6:5-6 (KJV)
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Romans 8:12-14 (KJV)
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


1 Corinthians 1:29-31 (KJV)
That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


Blessings...from brother rbanks

S
sermonindex

As one who loves reading about the holiness movement, the doctrine of entire sanctification which was preached by Wesley, J.A. Woods, Brengle, Fletcher, and the like. And more importantly that I am earnestly crying out to God for a clean heart and to be holy, I would like to add a comment to this thread that a close brother recently shared with me:

"Holiness is a by-product of our relationship with the Father and not a prime product."

If we are not abiding in Christ and He in us then we cannot be holy. Christ is the only way to the Father and the only way to the truth and life (zoe life, spiritual life, holy life.) Apart from Him we can do nothing. The Law is holy just and good, but the Law cannot make a man holy. For the law of the Spirit of life (zoe life) has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

In other words if we are focused on anything else other then the simplicity which is in Christ Jesus then Paul warns us: "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ."

I quote the below verse from Revelation for myself, as I am weak and want the Lord to be revealed in me:

"‘But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. ‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent."

May the Lord build His church in your local community and mine. May the fulness of Christ be seen and heard as the light and salt of the world in this perverse and wicked generation,

K&B

E
Elibeth


Andrew,

Thank you so kindly for being so graciously helpful in passing this on.

I really do not know how to bring up the web sites,..or if I even can
on this iPad.

Thanks again,...as we learn and commune about Him.

elizabeth

C
Christinyou

Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Who sanctifies and cleanses the Bride of Christ? It is only, without any circumstances of my doing, but only of God through Jesus Christ that sets forth any Holy Contract that I might be saved.

There is no transaction on my part, for man cannot approach God unless it is through the Person of God, Jesus Christ Himself. Once the transaction has been made by God, then Jesus Christ by giving Himself for me so He might start the sanctification process, taking me to a glorious place in Christ, preparing me for no spot, no wrinkle, He making me without blemish, a perfect place in His body the Church as His perfect Bride.

me = all who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

This is the transaction God has made for all who believe;

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This is my contract with God a transaction by Him to present me Holy and acceptable to the Father. This is the seal of the Holy Spirit upon my life in Christ.

In Him, who makes it possible for my salvation:

Phillip

S
Sree

I do not call it second blessing. I will call it baptism of Holy Spirit.
I came to Christ at the age of 25, having read the Gospels I was so thrilled to live according to the teachings of Christ. I was raised as a Hindu and was living as one till 25. Once I read the Gospel it was made evident that the teachings of Jesus on inner life and purity is the one that God is seeking from me.

After accepting Christ and having experienced a Born again life, I got a clear conviction of Conscious sins in my life. I struggled hard to overcome sins that I know. But I failed frequently. Only difference between my pre-born again life and post born again life was the sin conviction and need for repentance. The life style was more or less the same with frequency of sin only being reduced.

Based on my personal life, a truly born again believer cannot live in a life of sin. He will receive an inner spirit who will rest only when he repents and set things right with God. This is exactly what the scriptures say as well.

Now after close to 2 years of defeated life, one night I decided to stop being a Christian. I decided that I was not called to live this life and could no longer take the pain of frequently sinning and not honoring God. I made an honest prayer -' Lord if you have not called me tell me plainly so that I will not be fooling around'. The spirit inside me prompted me to read the Bible one last time.

Bible opened to John 14, where I heard Jesus speaking to me that there is a place reserved for me in his Kingdom and if it was not so then he would have told me plainly. It was not like reading a passage but hearing from someone. And I know who was speaking.

I wept so badly that night with a realization of God's love for me. Though I have continuously dishonored him in my life , he cared to appear in that room, that night to speak to me. After that life became different, I got assurance that Jesus loves me and will rescue me from all temptations. Bible became a different Book and revelations started flowing, with gift to share God's word for encouraging other believers. Above all, I got the power to overcome sin. Power that was lacking in me but was given by my savior.

The true sign of Baptism of Holy Spirit is power to live an overcoming life in which Sin has no dominion on you. Does this make me sinless perfect? No it does not. But I can testify that God will deliver me from all temptations so that I will not commit the sins that I know are sin (Conscious Sin). He is faithfully showing me Sins in unknown areas of my life. All I need to do is, to seek his grace to overcome them.

Brother Zac Poonen says, As far as possible for a man to achieve Christlikeness on this earth, I want to reach.

Same is my desire as well. I pray that it will be the desire of the readers, so that they will seek sanctification faithfully.

Simple logic, if evil spirit enters a person he becomes evil, same way if holy spirit enters he should become holy. In both cases it should be visible and not a theology where you believe that you are already Holy. Christianity should be experienced.

J
jochbaptist

Thanks Brother, that was truly blessed reading.

Also blessed by your last post Amrkelly. Thanks!

S
sermonindex

Brother I have not replied as I am not sure exactly what you are saying and ask you if you can give more clarity. Thanks. Sanctification is all of Christ, agreed.

S
sermonindex

Sree thank you for that wonderful testimony. It happened to me in similar ways but over a much longer period of time. When I hit on the truth, that my sanctification had already been provided for me on the cross, the love of God was shed abroad in my heart and I spent three days in rapture. I now had the power to overcome sin and walked for many years in His rest.

Later on though I slowly became aware that there was more. I entered a time of great affliction and emptiness descended until I read a little book that showed me that ùnconscious` sin will still cause a veil and that the Spirits leading is sufficient for that too.

There is much dispute and argument over the differences in these two states, and I feel that it is pointless to debate them as we can only see as much in these higher realms, what the Lord reveals and to push the truth too soon is not advisable.

But it was a blessing for me to read your testimony.

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