Concern Over J. Osteen Ministry

This has been very heavy on my heart the past few weeks: the ministry of Joel Osteen. First let me say that i do not want to bash him or start a whole thread that promotes bashing a man. But I am very concerned, very concerned with the rising popularity of this man and his ministry.His book "Your Best Life Now" is a top seller and can be found at my grocery store as well as any bookstore. I bought the book to do my own research. Let me say that I would be the first one to WANT all those things to be true. Who wouldn't?! But, alas, I know that is not the nature of the true God and the true gospel.Yesterday we heard on the radio that his speaking engagement in Chicago is compltely sold out and there are now scalpers selling tickets for $150 a piece. People want to go hear thim that bad.My heart is so grieved. Thousands of people are falling for a gospel that is about "SELF-FULLFILLMENT" , not "SELF-DENIAL". My husband and I listened to a Todd Friel recording this weekend while he was disecting a sermon of Osteen's. TTW Ministries/ False teaching I am not in agreement with the way Friel brings his message across many times (brash and insensative) but listening to Osteens words and knowing how untrue and SELF CENTERED they are, makes me feel very sad and sick inside. The fact is that he may be right on some points, but His remedy or answer to the problem is not "God centered", only man -centered.It really is a mix was positive thinking, motivational speaking, self-esteem boosting mixed with a few scriptures and the mention of God. There is no metion of sin, repentance, Jesus (maybe I missed that one in there somewhere), sanctification, etc...and here are thousands of people flocking to his church, to his conferences and buying his books who believe that this is Christianity. They are being totally decieved. O, I can only pray that a few will come to know Him anyway, that the Lord will snatch some peope out that false gospel and show them the way anyway. I know He can and He will. I wish there was something that could be done. I am praying that if the Lord has a part for me to play in this, to reveal the truth where ever He may have me, then so be it. I don't want to go around bashing people. But i do want to make sure that people know the difference between what is true and what is false. 5 or 6 years ago, I would have fallen right into this teaching. I didn't realize at that time that the gospel was one of self-denial- not self-fullfillment. I was self centered and self focused back then. -Not to mention I was as lukewarm as can be and now know that i was not even a christian - a follower of Christ."Lord, please give me the wisdom I need and the forbearance I need to do Your will. To expose that which is not of you, but show people the real gospel. To have the courage to stand against a feel- good gospel, but the love and patience it takes to love people through to the real gospel. Let me show them YOU, so that they won't want a false gospel. O, the people are so blinded and it is just terrible. I pray that people who may earnestly be seeking you, will find You."If I am wrong about this in any way, I pray that the Lord will show me. I am willing to be shown my heart's deceivement if I am wrong. But then why am I so grieved?Is anyone else concerned about this? What will you do? What will I do? Praying and seeking the Lord.......Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. Mat. 16:24-25

What a way to start the day! I opened my email today and had this message from Zac Poonen: "The Example of the Apostle Paul". So my first thing to do was to send it out on my mailing list :) Already God is showing me how I can help.THE EXAMPLE OF APOSTLE PAULZac PoonenWe have a very great responsibility to demonstrate tothe next generation what Christlikeness really means.People who look at us – the way we live, preach andserve - should be able to see in us what it means to bea true servant of the Lord, in the style of the apostlesand prophets of old, and not in the style of 20th-centuryfilm-star-like evangelists.Whether we realise it or not, we’re leaving behind usan image, wherever we go – an image that’s going toremain in people’s minds long after we’ve gone awayand long after they have forgotten the messages thatwe preached to them.When Paul called the elders of the church in Ephesusto bid farewell to them, notice what he told them in Acts20:17-35. He reminded them that he had been withthem for three years (verse 31) and that he hadpreached to them night and day. Three years is morethan 1000 days. And so if Paul actually preached twiceevery day, as it seems to imply here, he must havepreached over 2000 sermons there.Ephesus was the place where they had once had agreat revival and where Christians had burnt their oldbooks of magic and witchcraft costing nearly half amillion rupees. It was also the place wherehandkerchiefs that had touched Paul’s body were usedto heal the sick and deliver the demon-possessed.God did some amazing miracles through Paul inEphesus on a scale that hadn’t been seen anywhereelse (See Acts 19:11,12,19).At the end of all this, what does Paul remind the eldersof? Does he remind them of his sermons or themiracles? No. He tells them to remember the humbleway he had lived among them, from the first day theyhad seen him (v.19). Even if they forgot his sermons,they could never forget how he lived among them. Hislife had made a permanent impact on them. Theycould never forget his compassion and his simplicity.They’d remember that he had worked hard with hisown hands as a tentmaker to support himself and hiscoworkers – so that he would not be a burden to themand also to be an example to other Christian workers(v.34,35). They would never forget that during all thosethree years, Paul never desired money, or gifts, or evena new set of clothes, from any of them (verse 33)!Paul also reminded them how he had proclaimed theWHOLE counsel of God to them uncompromisingly(Acts 20:27). He hadn’t been a man-pleaser, seekingpopularity for himself. He had preached repentanceand every other unpopular subject, if it was profitablefor his hearers, even if some got offended thereby (Acts20:20, 21).

Well, I use to be a member of the Pastor Police and God told me one day I will never forget it was like a slap in the back of the head that I am letting my Pastor Police job interfere with his will for my life and you need to move on and let me do the Pastor Policing You're in My Hands. What your pastor does isn't of any importance to you. For what he does is between him and Me, whether he is obedient or whether he isn't? He is now accountable to Me because I gave him My Word, and if he closes his eyes and ears then I will deal with it. It's not your problem. It's Mine and I don't have problems. I take care of everything in due time. This is Jehovah, the Creator of Universe, of all that is, and of all that is going to be.and I have and it was like two bags of concrete of removed from my shoulders. Yes you can go through scripture finding scriptures that say we are responsible to bring this to light and if you feel good within by doing that "go for it" I hated it and God delivered me from that and I have moved on to a closer relationship with the Lord. For me personally it effected me so bad that by seeing Pastors out there I did not approve of being able to preach the gospel I starting doubting God that he would even allow this man or woman to minister, I said God are you asleep up there or what, and it was killing my relationship with him. It was a tough bridge to cross "really tough" but I crossed over to freedom from the bondage of the Pastor Police job and now I concern myself with what should come first, my personal relationship with the Lord and I love it! I do not know what Gods will for you is and if you should be concerning yourself with Pastor Joel that is strictly between you and the Lord if your heart tells yes go for it! if your concern is heavy on your heart and you can handle that extra weight again "go for it", I was held in that bondage for 10 wasted years of my life because I did not even make one arrest, you know why God said look all that grief you have put yourself through and those people are still out there Ministering and he also said I can use anyone to bring in lost souls and none ever will be perfect. If you were asking opinions well mine would be if you can carry the extra weight and it does not create some sort of bondage within and you are able to move along in a joy full walk I would say carry on solder .Tony Evans had a great sermon Sunday on how the word is a great roadmap for life but he also said that your number one priority should be listening to what God is telling you personally and I totally agree with him.

Hi sister Chanin,As of late Holy Spirit has really been impressing on me, via Revelation chapters 2 and 3, Who's concern pastors and churches really are ... Christ Himself ... And that if there's any correction or chastisement of God's anointed, or removal of candlesticks (churches), He's the only one able, and worthy to do so ... i know in my own case Holy Spirit has used me in three distict "words" over the past 20 years to my own pastor (but not the congregation), but that's been the extent of it ... If in fact those "words" were from the Lord, and if in fact there is to be any correction of my pastor (and subsequently my congregation) for not heeding such a "word" then only Christ Himself is capable, and worthy to bring about a change ... All i know is that the only thing i can do is pray, "Lord, if i am the one that needs fixing, fix me ... And Lord if in fact it is my pastor, and my congregation, and on a broader scale Your entire Body (of churches) that needs fixing, then please Jesus fix us" ...i like brother Joel, and listen to him sometimes, but their buying the Astro Dome did trouble me, but if it is in fact God's will that it prosper it will, if not He'll remove it in His own way and good time ... i like brother Jakes, and listen to him sometimes, but Mega Fests and cruises that include comedians who ply their trade also on Club Comic View trouble me, but if it is in fact God's will that it prosper it will, if not He'll remove it in His own way and good time ... But in the meanwhile i'm praying for such brethren because they may have gotten "perspiration confused with inspiration", and there but for the grace of God (God's ability to my spiritual sight) might go i ... So in the meanwhile i just stick to my simpler staple of Charles Stanley and A.R. Bernard ...

Just so that people don't think that i am out to trash a "man" or go around saying "don't listen to this man"- that is not my intent and I don't believe the Lord would have me do that.I think recieving that article by Zac Poonen and then being able to send it out is a perfect example of the way the Lord wants me to warn people and give them the TRUTH so they may see for themselves that which is false.I would rather give people the truth many times over than to go out directly and defame someone's name. It is better to offer the alternative to the false.I would just like more opportunities to keep representing the truth so that this truth may come against all that is false. Some may say that Osteen's gospel is ok, or good, but I believe the Lord does not want us to settle for what seems good, but His best. One of the problems with modern christianity is that people still want to hang onto their rights, their wants and their desires. This is not the gospel that jesus preached. And I will do everything that I can (only as the Lord leads) to see that I do my part in representing the real gospel that Jesus preached.May we preach and represent the truth so much that people cannot help but see what is false and what is true. may we surrender all to God, so that He may be seen in us. It's all about HIM , not US.What concerns me as well, is that when we make our faith about US, then who is on the throne? SELF. We are on the throne. God is not in full charge, we are. When there is someone else on the throne, that is anti-christ sitting on the throne.This brings me to a conclusion that even as the bible talks about the anti-christ sitting on the throne, I have to wonder in this day and age if it isn't US- SELF. We have made ourselves our own God's because we refuse to get off the throne and let God rule however He sees fit. Again, all I can say is that it's not about us. What we want, what we desire, what we have the right to. O, God show us your majesty. Show us your amazing power and hugeness, so that we should know that we are nothing. We deserve nothing , but yet, You are still so good to us.My greivance does not necessarily go out toward mr. Osteen or any other man- the Lord will have to be the judge- it is the message, the deception, saying there is peace when there is none. Saying that God wants you to have what you dream of having.I have felt the exact same way with the Jabez book, the P.D.L. and all the J. Eldridge books came out. One after the other, I see this teaching that is so man-centered.If you compare a book like Don't Waste Your Life by John Piper to a book like Wild at Heart or Your best Life Now- you can see that one is completely God -centered and intent on God getting His glory- while the others are man-centered and are intent on man getting what He wants and needs.In Him, Chanin(edit): "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. " -- refering to my comment above about "self" being on the throne in the temple- for we are His temple.This is just more confirmation to me about the apostacy of the church.Interesting to note: i don't know if anyone knows much about satanism or their church beliefs, but the focus of their church is that they believe that they are their own god. They put self on the throne. How many "christians" are allowing this? hmmmmmm.

KrispyKrittr, I re-read my post two times and I really can't see where I looked to be judging anyone I was telling of my own personal experience, if I seemed to be doing any judging I did not intend for my post to appear that way I am sorry. And your right my calling is "NOT" to be a watchman "thank you Lord" I have a hard enough time being my own watchman. :-)

I have to admit since I speak in small churches and large and house churches also that its sometimes a difficult task to instruct thoughs to whom the Lord has placed in ones care. Hebrews says we'll give account of thier souls on the day of judgement.It's sometimes better to sound a loud caution and later come to the conclusion that you're wrong then to allow poison in and have to damage control later.We as christians are instructed to rightly divide the Word of truth and to judge all things , even to the point of testing and trying the spirit.That doesn't make us christian police, that just makes us doers of the Word of God, and that's safe.So Krispy----keep on sounding, but don't neglect love in your sounding(btw--- I didn't sense anything wrong in your posts at all, so I just bring a general exhortation to love).As to brother O. I don't hear the cross.

So here is a good question for you do we listen to the Holy Spirit within us at all? or do we just totally go by the word? I personally feel that I will take listening to the Holy Spirit within me to led me and guide me and mine tells me not to get caught up in Policing Pastors regardless of what the word says and I will obey the Spirit first and foremost, are we led by the Spirit or the Word? If were led by the word we would not even need the Holy Spirit to enter our body, we could just be led by the word. I believe the God I serve is up to something new everyday as he speaks to me on a daily basis and leads me and guides me in my walk on what I should be doing and what I should not be doing.Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.I feel The Holy Spirit will never lead you contrary to the written word. But he will lead you contrary to your interpretation of His word.

At first I wasn't sure I even wanted to enter this thread.But I felt Krisspy who has oversight of the lives of other people in several house churches needed encouraged to be on his guard at all times and not to let condemnation over take him but that he should do all things in love.So how do I answer you? You need to protect you conscience in the sight of God and that by walking out your own salvation with fear and trembling of God holding forth faith with a pure conscience in His sight. But to thoughs in leadership roles, sound doctrine is safe. The doing of the word of God.I use this scripture so much I sound like a broken record---Jn7:16-17 . I don't need the Holy Spirit to tell what God meant when He told me to Love thoughs who persecute me--- I need the Holy Spirit of God to Help me do it, and I can go on.We live in an america that has subjected the Holy Spirit of God to a feeling or emotion or sensation and we call that the leading of the Spirit.Well much of the Precepts of God's word is not subjective to our feelings.Here's an example James2 all but especially verses14-17 I don't really need to feel lead of The Holy Spirit to be held responsible for this principle.I am responsible , first in obedience to the Word of God and also in obedience to the God of the Word. The doing of God's word will always place the cross central in our lives.For how can a man or woman rightly judge a ministry without having fully died to self.Never the less from Ex to Rev we are systematically exhorted to measure all things by God's word.

I sincerely appreciate your thoughts, I am number one totally here to learn, not one knows it all except God and I can see how we all can have our own interpretation of the word because I feel it's ministers to all differently, and if this is true that then leads to differences in opinions only and Wow that could lead to all out war if we let it thank God we don't here. I guess understanding God's word is a life-long task and we are all on a journey in our understanding. From what I have read God's word is there to train us to distinguish good from evil but we should know our limits, and while not pretending to know everything, we should nonetheless live up to the truth that we have attained and err on the side of caution about what we are not sure of, guess I should follow that.

It is an incrediable thing to me to realize that in the short time I've been on this site typing or cyber talking to all of my brothers and sisters on this site that I'm drawn more and more into the prayer closet for this e-community and I've had an increadible desire to meet in person many of you folks. In due time I'm sure we'll all meet. As my schedule takes me further out I really need to let everyone know so we can at least have a fellowship meal together.

Krispy,I like your sense of humor bro....:-P Although I don't think your'e a stalker Dohzman! MC

I'm from Ohio---look at my bio. , You know what they say about us buckeyes? We'er worthless nuts. At the present I minister in 3 different states but mainly Ohio. I'm really pressing the Lord for a speaking engagement in England so that one day Bro. Ron will look in the back of his church and see some yank there.Lol.

I just wanted to say that I Love with all my heart the Whole message of Salvation.LOVE yes Please don't forget the Repent partPlease don't forget the Turning PartGRACE yesPlease don't let Grace become an excuse for lawlessness.Please don't let Grace become an excuse for living in union with this WORLD.Faith yesDo not have faith in the HumanityDo not have faith in money and things.I long to see the day of a pure and complete Gospel the Gospel of Jesus Christ.This is just how I feel Church.I like Joel he’s a happy guy, but I’m broken hearted so I will seek after a man of sorrows so we will have more in common.

I like Joel he’s a happy guy:You are seeing the outside, he could be crying on the inside that maybe he feels that God might have had other plans for him but he went with tradition as most Pastors sons do, and until there is a Five Fold move within the Church today, tradition will probably always supersede Gods will for all the Pastors family, and I personally feel that represents a part of the unchurched move today.

You are seeing the outside...Didn't you hear? When you are a Super-Christian you are endowed with X-ray vision to see the dross in your brothers heart. ;-) MC

Concur; Krispy has flavah...I am native of Dayton, O., but decades on the left coast beat most of it outta me.

Beware of ear tickling preachers who are willing to give an apostate generation a soft, new kind of Christianity.What does the word say about those sword pullers? :-P iron sharpens iron! Will not try and de-rail anyones mission, but I will stick with the scripture below of course we have had this conversation before and I can appreciate you mission but let the glory be Gods.Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. Is there any good Pastors out there? maybe we could start a Good Pastors thread it just might be the shortest thread ever posted here. :-P

Actually Bill... there is a long list of really great preachers on this very site. It's over in the MP3 section. Check it out!Now would that be an opinion or fact! :-)

KrispyKrittr, I just like messing with you and I think you know that but hey we Christians can be humorous can't we? A Merry heart is good for the soul. :-?

Actually Bill... there is a long list of really great preachers on this very site. It's over in the MP3 section. Check it out! 8-) Hi Bill, glad to know that there are others that talk to themselves...And on a similar note, have been listening lately to a wonderful and well seasoned gentleman Major Ian Thomas specifically, the 4 part message he shares and at 88 yrs of age, it is quite remarkable, a very singular message it is; Jesus.

Wow, that was a great! message Thanks! what a sweet spirit that man seems to have. Yea we all should take time to talk to ourselves it helps me keep some prospective on my life. :-)

Dear More of Him,

I understand the spirit of your comments however I must humbly take exception with your characterization of John Eldridge and the ministry of Ransomed Heart. The central point of the entire ministry is to point people to Jesus. The premise of the ministry is Jesus' quote of Isa 61:1.

The fact that Jesus declares that he came to bind up the brokenhearted and the statement that "...This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." (Lk 4:21) shows the intent of the ministry of Jesus. I do not see man getting the glory, I see Jesus being glorified.

I have changed in a tremendously dramatic fashion through and by the Holy Spirit and inspiration through the ministry of Ransomed Heart.

Just ask my wife and children, the true test, from a self centered religious person to a Jesus centered resurrected life. A changed life can be the only true test.

It is probably more sophistry than anything else to see something other than the truth. What I mean is in this modern age with all of the voices out there and the constant barrage of information via the new tower of Babel (the www). We reflect our own bias and subjectivity in our hearing. The comparison of two devoted and sincere servants (Piper & Eldridge) we set ourselves up as a critic. This presupposes a point of view that is tainted. It is not a zero sum game, both my have truth or insight to glean from. The entire website of Sermon Index is a testimony to the encouragement we receive from the messages of godly men.

Just eat the chicken and spit out the bones. If you do not get closer to Jesus from a message than that's ok. If it is blatant heresy than a warning may be in order, only after much prayer and listening for the right words and leading of the Holy Spirit to as Paul says "...I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. (Acts 20:31) The important part being the tears.

Jeff Hollett

Dear Jeff,

I do hope you realize that my original post was done so almost 3 years ago. I cannot say that I stand exactly where I stood 3 years ago on all of these issues.

So glad He has shown Himself to you in a real way!

In His love, Chanin

It may be that John Hagee was trying so hard to create a buzz worthy book that he went too far and was misunderstood. Here is his [url=http://www.jhm.org/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&type=gen&mod=Core+Pages&gid=F9D83613EC574E6D8A2530B583FE9B95]letter to explain[/url].

Hi everyone.

moreofHim, it seems wise to seek wisdom and help from God like you are.

A couple of things come to mind if I could share them?

In John's Gospel, when the Lord Jesus was brought before the high priest, it says the high priest asked him about His [i]disciples[/i] and His [i]doctrine[/i]. And then it says, after the Lord answered them, that one of the officers that stood by struck Him. And then it says

Jesus answered him,

[b][color=660000]If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me? [/color][/b]

Now that seems to be a danger here, that a crowd gather together and smite this man with their words, like "false teacher" and so on, but never bear witness to the actuall evil that is supposed to have been done. I mean taking the time to actually bring out the evidence of wrong doing. That seems like it would take a lot of time and effort and could be difficult to handle properly.

Now the other thing that came to mind was a qoute that I heard or read, attributed to Charles Spurgeon that says something to this effect:

the way you show that a stick is crooked is to lay a straight one next to it.

May you have the wisdom and direction that you need,

Chris

Hello Chris (and others),

I know I already posted this once today- but it looks like i need to repeat it :-)-- I made this original post almost [u]3 yrs ago[/u]. I've had LOTS of time to think and rethink these issues by now :-)

My thoughts on this topic haven't changed much in this time but I hope I am a little wiser about a few things (maybe not :)

In Christ, Chanin

Thanks!

KrispyKrittr wrote:
My goodness, it's amazing how far off the track John Hagee has managed to go as of late...

Krispy

Thanks Krispy! see you took my signature line for way I intended for it to be took to "expose" not to be sarcastic as some might think, and your right I use to "sorta" like the old fire and brimstone guy but remember the Love of money is the root of "all" evil. I am not calling him personally evil but I think he needs dollars to promote his agenda whatever that may be, so some folks will do whatever to produce that money even if it means jumping on some bandwagons, you think I am close in what I have said?
Now if People that act Spiritual aren't if that is true or not I don't know and really don't care that would be between them and God.

Compliments wrote:
Since your using Hagee's name as part of your signature, were you aware of these false teachings that he is spreading?

Read what I wrote Kripsy below this post his name in not in my sig. to edify.